December 13, 2022 • 47 mins
As the HBO comedy South Side launches its third season, Chicago actor, director, playwright, and screenwriter J. Nicole Brooks joins Khalil and Ben to talk about why she is committed to working on TV shows set in her hometown, like South Side, The Chi, and Chicago Fire. They also discuss the Chicago-based TV show The Bear, what it means to represent a city authentically, and how it's possible to achieve the universal through the specific.
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Speaker 1 (00:14):
Push it. Happy holidays everyone, I know this is a
special time of year. We are taking a few weeks
off and we'll be back with some of my best friends.
Are in mid January, this time dropping in your feet
on Wednesdays instead of Tuesdays. We'll catch you then have
a wonderful holiday season. I was also fortunate enough to
(00:39):
be a part of the cast of Fargo. It's set
in Kansas City, but it was so, so so Chicago.
It felt like Chicago. You were Chris Rock's wife. No,
Chris Rock was my husband. I'm Khalil Gibrad Muhammed and
(01:02):
I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white.
I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
some of my best friends are. Some of my best
friends are dot dot dot. In this show, we wrestle
with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided
and unequal country. And in this episode we are talking
(01:23):
about two of our favorite television shows right now. They
tell us so much about how places themselves, like cities,
play a huge part in how we understand the divisions
in our country and how we might come together. They
give us so much joy and we want you to
enjoy them too. Man, TV as knowledge. I like this
Kalila Entertainment. We got it before we get started. I
(01:47):
just wanted to let you know this episode has some
strong language. Just a fair warning, but stick around something
not only what's up, Kalila, How you doing. I'm good, man,
(02:08):
I'm good. Loved what you just said about TV shows,
you know where they're set, being like a character in
itself and being so important to the actual story. Yeah,
to how we understand, like you know, who we are
and our neighbors and even what informs how we think
about the world. And I love movies like that. I
love TV shows like that. I love books like that.
But I'm thinking about TV shows that are set in
(02:29):
a certain place and how there's a pleasure when you're
familiar with the place to see to see the familiar.
And you know, we have both seen Abbot Elementary set
in Philadelphia, in an elementary school there. Oh man, it's great,
And just like recognizing the flavors of Philadelphia with the
attitudes and the food, the food, like the aspects of
a place. Yes, and a show that friends turned me
(02:51):
onto a couple of years ago, The Ozarks and I
was very slow to watch it, but oh my god,
I'm like totally immersed in this other world that I've
never been to, never thought about going to, and the
place is so much a part of what makes that
show work. Yeah, and so that's another idea, like you're
actually using that show to travel summer you've never been
in to learn about it. That's right. And sometimes of
(03:12):
course you're you're learning things that actually don't aren't very
representative of it, are No. No, there's this danger of
like a Hollywood version of a place where it's a
total caricature and it's misleading. And then there are all
shows that were like are very organic and made by
local artists and it's it's the real real. And actually
that's a good point because if you think about it,
when you don't actually know a place very well, you
(03:33):
can't actually evaluate what's going on, what are the interventions,
what are the writers trying to tell us about this
place that we didn't already know? Boom, And that's why
we're here today because we're going to talk about two
Chicago TV shows. Yep, So we're going to talk about
HBO Max's original series called south Side. It is a
comedy send up of this predatory lending furniture place called
(03:55):
Rent to Own, and we learned so much about so
many different types of Chicago INDs and also just like
the crazy stuff that happens in a city when folks
are trying to get their hustle on. And in the
second part of the show, we're going to talk about
a TV show called The Bear, which is on x Hulu.
I love that show and it's actually sort of setting
(04:16):
a kind of ambiguous near North side of Chicago inside
an Italian beef shop. And as a guest today, this
is amazing. We have on Jay Nicole Brooks, who is
an actor on the South Side. She's not on The Bear,
but she's an amazing Chicago an amazing Chicago actor, writer,
intellectual creator, playwright. Yes, and she and I actually met
(04:38):
several years ago when I finished my book about Cabrini Green,
you know, this public housing development on the near North
side of Chicago known for its infamy, because she was
writing a play about Jane Byrne, Chicago's mayor, who moves
into Cabrini Green into an apartment in nineteen eighty one,
and I had a whole chapter in my book about that,
and so here she and I are getting together and
like chopping up, like how we each came at this
(05:01):
story from like, you know, a narrative nonfiction way, from
a totally like fictional theatrical way, and you know, we
just totally hit it off because we doing the same work.
And how Chicago matters so much to the stories that
you tell from very different approaches. Yeah, that the meaning
of the place is so significant. So let's just jump
in with Jane Nicole Brooks and ye, because she's amazing.
(05:22):
I love it. Let's do it. Well, Hello, it's great
to see you. It's great to have you on. Likewise,
I'm so so happy to be here and kick it
what y'all? Thank you. You are the bomb dignity. But
I'm not sure what to call you for this interview.
(05:44):
I mean, I know your name is Jane Nicole Brooks,
but what do you go by? It depends on the situation.
You know, if you are like a white person that
owns a corporation and I owe you money, is probably Dianna.
If you are in the arts as Jaye Nicole Brooks,
and if you're friends, you can call me Slick, So
please call me slick. All right, Slick, I like that
(06:08):
we are gonna art by playing a clip from the
HBO comedy The South Side, from a little moment that
you're in one of the episodes, Alixander, good night. Can
I help me? Olivia? I'm a pa oh. I thought
thea were usually kind of on the you know, fresh
out of college, kind of a younger reconde. Okay, well
I'm a late blooman, get off my dinner, getting off
(06:30):
your dick, and I'm off of it. Can I help you? So? Uh? Slick?
I mean basically, I'm playing that because we're gonna we
want to get on your metaphorical dick here a little
bit and and and talk to you at first about
like who you are professionally, all the amazing stuff that
you you've accomplished. Can you describe yourself as a Chicago
(06:51):
actor and writer and creator? As far as my history
here in Chicago, I'm born and raised here, and uh,
I studied theater and performance and dance since I was fifteen.
And though I've lived in Los Angeles and New York,
Chicago has always planned at home. And after years of
(07:12):
being away and hustling all over, Chicago is pretty much
the place where my acting career sort of took a
pop and started climbing to places where I didn't quite
know it would And it's been I don't know, it's
been a beautiful joy in one of those places with Southside.
(07:33):
So you've been on the Southside, What else have you
been on? I'm also what we call a recurring character,
a guest star recurring on Chicago Fire. I play well
currently like one of the highest ranking characters. I play
DC Hills, So she's the deputy commissioner over the entire
fire department. Right, all right, hey, pop um, you know
(07:57):
I like I like telling people what to do because
we know how black women in Chicago have risen to
the highest ranks of the Chicago Fire Department. Absolutely, and
you know what, that role is actually inspired by actual individuals,
So shout out to all of the black films and
women that are first responders and then the fire department.
(08:21):
So there's that. I've also played a cap on the
first two seasons of The Shy. I played a character
called Sergeant Clements. She was a sergeant in the police department. Yeah,
we love that show. Well, I should say I love
The Shy. Just amazing don't speak for me. Yea, the acting,
(08:42):
the storytelling, the writing, and another show with a lot
of complexity about black people. I mean, I think that's
one of the things that makes The Shy so interesting. Yes,
you know, as an actor, I have my experiences. As
a writer, I might have other thoughts as a creative,
you know what I mean, Love it or not love it?
(09:05):
Any of these shows that are set in Chicago, the
ones I've been involved with, have really been a great
joy to work on. And it's just always funny to
me how you know, Like we have our opinions about
how they're done, and I got plenty of them, you know.
So I'm a Chicago and I love my city. But
I haven't lived in Chicago since I was twenty two
(09:27):
years old. And one of the things that Ben and
I talk a lot about is like what this city
means to us as the shared place that helped us
become the adults we are and the writers we are
and the people who care deeply about you know, really
big questions. I'm curious for you though, since you have
lived over the places, what is it about Chicago and
(09:47):
your artistry that is so compelling? Oh sweet baby, mallord. Okay,
first of all, you know, first of all, I think
that when you are fortunate enough to be born and
bred here, there's a certain pride that you grow up with.
And I don't care what the industry is or what
(10:09):
a category might be. It's like Chicago over everything everywhere,
you know, And it's also like we're Midwestern and so
we're nice, tough guys. I think. I like that. Let
me ask a related question, which is, you know, you're
also a playwright and a screenwriter. I mean, so you're
writing stories about Chicago. What are like the representations of
(10:30):
Chicago that you're sort of like working against that you're
trying to subvert. You know that these depictions of the
city that are out there in TV and film and
plays that you're like, I am going to show something
that's different or more complicated or other. Well, Ben, I
definitely feel you know, I feel like you and I
have so much in common, you know what I mean,
like coming from some of the same parts of town
(10:53):
and growing up in the same way. So I don't
know if these are some of the things that you
feel as a creator, but for me personally, I feel
like there's so many other cities across the nation, and
when it comes to home and TV and things like that,
we know their personalities. Yeah, And I feel like with
(11:15):
the city of Chicago, when it's represented on screen, we
don't always get a sense of the personality. And it's
often because it's people that are creating it and don't
know shit about the city. So what are they showing instead?
Oh my god, they're showing Chicago and Toronto. And I
get that that's a protos oial thing. I get it,
(11:36):
but it's visually missing the grit and the gorgeous, fucked
up architecture. I know when I'm looking in New York,
I know when I'm looking at la I know when
I'm looking at Paris. But sometimes when I look at Chicago,
is it a surface thing? Why set something in Chicago?
What idea they're going at? And then like, how do
you like use Chicago Differently? If you don't understand how
(12:01):
this city came to be, you really won't get the
nuance of it. So for me, I'm a history nerd,
and I care about what was in existence before I
came along because that adversely affects my work. So sometimes
(12:21):
in my work it might be like an Easter egg
is just something you kind of see. And I know,
as a writer and as a creator, I don't really
give a fuck if you don't understand a Chicago joke.
I don't give a fuck if you don't understand something
that is uniquely Chicago, because I'm writing for Chicago's interesting,
And if you are a good writer, I'm gonna just
(12:42):
like leave it at this. If you're a good writer,
you can really achieve the universal through the specific. So
keep your ship laser focus and give me something that
I actually can get behind and believe, because otherwise you're
giving me procedural drama that I like being on. I
(13:04):
like those shows because they pay well. But like you know,
give us some nuance because we it's what's there. So
if you understand the hyper segregation, it's going to filter
into your work. If you understand that, like we have
gangster mayors and always have, it's going to go into
the work or whatever, and gangster governors. We have had
(13:27):
so many jailbird governors, you know. Well, speaking of keeping
it real in terms of the nuances of Chicago. After
the break, we're gonna come back and talk about this
amazing show that you've been part of South Side. The
show just dropped its third season, so when we come
back more on the south Side. So you are bringing
(14:03):
up shows that feel like authentically Chicago and that are
grappling with sort of all the hyper segregation and all
the other issues of the city. And so we have
this comedy that we want to talk about the South
Side on HBO and it's set in Englewood and Englewood.
You and I have both written about Cabrini Green. Englewood
is like the new Cabrini Green is sort of like
(14:24):
a shorthand, and the way people think of Chicago a
shorthand for like crime, segregation, mostly black neighborhood, to think
about total separation, to think about like the scariest parts
of the city. And this comedy is really like anything
but that it does deal with poverty, segregation, crime policing,
(14:45):
but in a way that sort of subverts all of
these unbiased but we want that, we want that. I'm
extraordinarily proud of this team because they are not only
writing about it, they film in these communities, They film
on the West Side, they film all over the South Side,
(15:07):
and they get into places where I've known other creative
teams and crews where they're like, oh, we can't get
the insurance, we don't feel safe there and it's not safe.
And I'm like, well, why are these guys able to
do it? And I think it's because you have to
forge a relationship with communities, and I've watched these guys
(15:29):
do that. I'll tell you super quick anecdote. The first
time I auditioned for Southside is an actor. I heard
about the script and then I was like, all right,
this is a comedy in Chicago is probably not going
to make it past pilot because no one gives Chicago
a chance. Like I'm like, Chicago has the funniest motherfuckers
on the planet, yet we don't have comedies here, blah
(15:50):
blah blah. So I get the sides and I'm like, oh,
this scene is kind of funny. I was like, damn,
this scene is really funny. Yeah, damn, this seems real real.
So I was like, you know what, is probably gonna
go to a Hollywood big name, so fuck it. I
don't care. I'm gonna show up and be a chice
cargo as I can because I'm not gonna get it.
(16:11):
So I showed up in do Rag my Jordan's I
had on my my Bulls jersey and like, I just
gave it to him. I was like, fuck it, I'm
not gonna get it. And they're probably gonna say, we
don't understand your vernacular. And if you you thought it
was gonna go to knee along, listen, if I ever
in my lifetime lose a role to knee along, trust me,
(16:33):
I'm getting that tattooed on my forehead. She lost the
role to you. Come on, let's go, let's shout out
to knee along. But my point of that story is
that not only in that audition process with the director, writers,
and a couple of producers, not only were they into
it and encouraged it. I booked the part and then
(16:56):
I'm like, Okay, the network is going to say, now
we got to change it, but it's Comedy Central. They
don't give a fuck. So it was on Comedy Central,
and then it got picked up by HBO initially, and
then it got picked up by HBO. Max Yeah, and
you get on the set and you're like, oh my god,
they're gonna let me be my authentic self. They're gonna
let Chicago be Chicago. And once you like sink into
(17:20):
it and relax. The show just really flies because it's
honest to itself. It's not trying to write Chicago so
that the entire world understands it. It's just what it is,
and you just got to catch up to it. I
just smile brightly because I think that's really dope and
(17:40):
not always the case. Yeah, well, I love that you're
speaking to this kind of authenticity about the way that
the South Side is depicted in Inglewood, being this community
that I was often written out is a dangerous place
that one should go to about. I don't know. Seven
years ago, I was invited to the culinary school that
(18:00):
was built as part of Kennedy King College there and
it was the first time that I had actually done
anything professionally in Inglewood, and I thought, this is amazing
that there's this cooking school in this community that people think,
you know, you should do everything in your power to
avoid if you don't happen to live there. So you're
absolutely right. This community is way more rich and compelling
(18:25):
than we often think about. But the show itself, which
I just love, is to me like a cross between
the Office and like The Odyssey, because every episode is
an adventure that these guys have to overcome some set
of obstacles, some set of challenges. All of the main
characters come on, man, shout out to Homer. Okay, come
(18:47):
on with the Year of Joy in my groove, y'all,
let me finish. So there's all these anti stereotypes and
we just absolutely love this for what it does to
make complex the brilliance of black people in that city.
I'm gonna tell you something. As an actor, I'm like,
if I don't get a chance to do another that
(19:09):
that's set in Chicago, I still feel like I won.
On the first season The South Side, my character was
in an episode called The Day of the Jordans Drop
and it's literally the you know, it's all about the
Jordans and yeah, new a new version of the or
Jordan's coming out. Hey, look, brou if it was any
other day, we will pull over. I mean, but he
(19:30):
them new Jordans is coming out, and we got to
get back west and finished this all up before the
hit sales out. Hey what if I told you there's
a store near you right now that never sails out where?
Really I get stuff up trying and it's just such
a Chicago hilarious episode. So it was just a lot
of fucking fun to do it in this way. You
(19:53):
had talked about how the specific can be universal, and certainly,
like the three of us all had these roots not
just in Chicago but on the South Side. And so
I watched this show and even as a white dude
who grew up in the South Side, it just speaks
to me and like all these like you know, arounds
are popping right, Like they talk about the stuck up
girls at Kenwood High School where we went to, you know,
(20:15):
we went to Kenwood, and not just that I'm married
my prom date, you know, like like I'm still married
to this dug up girl from Keo who's amazing and wonderful, Danielle,
I love you. But they're all kinds of Chicago things
like that. There's this one scene we're about to play
a clip from where one of the characters is inside
a Harold's Chicken Shack and he wants more of their
(20:35):
famous Mile sauce, you know, which is like this mixture
of tangy barbecue sauce, and the woman behind the bulletproof
glass is refusing to give him more. Thank you, kind sir,
Can I have five more mile sauces. I really loved
the stuff. Hey Donovan, yo talk about he want five
mile sauces, five five law sauces. This is always you
three piece of white No he happiness a day man.
(20:56):
I love that clip. I have lived that experience inside
Harold's no doubt. But there are all these other kinds
of Chicago things, which is just amazing. There's an episode
that uses the idea of DIBs, which is, you know,
on a snowy day, when you clear the walk in
front of your house, you start putting your furniture out
there to make sure that nobody else parks in your spot.
It is totally Chicago gangster. And there are all these
(21:17):
other Chicago things too. There's an episode on stepping, which
is a kind of local dancing and house music, and
and Khalil loves golf. I know that Khalil loves golf. Yeah,
there's the scene of Jackson Park, which of course probably
the most dangerous golf course in America. It's like literally
the journey from I believe Whole number nine to Whole
(21:38):
number ten. You you cross a kind of a baby highway,
and that's a that's a plot point in the show,
and you know there's like there's like a riff on
Italian Fiesta. Chance the rapper actually makes a really good
joke about like how depressed he is. He's like, my
favorite restaurants Italian Fiesta. I'm sad, to be honest, I
hate my life. Why do I have to name tags
on They both say currency exchange. My favorite restaurant is
(22:00):
Italian Fiesta on the South Side. Love that place. Some
two words don't go together. Absolutely, one is Italian, one
is Mexican. That's joke ever, but you know, so throwing
that back on you, like national audience is listening to
this and being like, I don't get all the references.
Is there a butt to that? But I didn't grow
up in Queens and I catch all jokes. Yeah yeah,
(22:23):
but I didn't grow up in Brooklyn, And you know
what I mean, That's just what I feel about it,
Or New Jersey and I'm watching the Sopranos or like
absolutely which exit I don't fucking know shit about Jersey,
Like you know what I mean? So like, I feel like,
as a viewer, we are trained to accept the personalities
of other cities, and so now I honestly feel like
(22:44):
Southside is taking a charge in training. And I say
that lovingly and respectfully, but like really grabbing the viewer,
like yoking them up and saying, catch up. This is Chicago,
this is what we do. Yeah. And if you don't
understand the Kimwood references and like, the show just doesn't care.
(23:05):
And to me, the show does the best with clowning
because if you're a true clown. I've set this so
many times before. I mean it, A true clown doesn't
do a joke for a setup. A clown just stays
in it. And if they happen to get the laugh, great,
but the clown has to keep going. And that's the
(23:26):
fucking difference you deliver the next joke. Yeah, you gotta
keep going. Yeah, that's a beautifully put that. We learned
something from that about how to Yeah. So I feel
like Bob Newhart and you know, the creative team behind
south Side like both, well fucking done. And so when
they invited me back the second season to be in
(23:46):
this episode that's a take on Ferris Bueller's Day Off,
which I grew up just like totally idolizing that movie,
I was like, god, damn, I won again. I just
grew up a nerd for that movie and knowing every
line and all of it. So it was just a
lot of fucking fun to do it. So in this episode,
(24:07):
Brenda and Turner's Day Off, it is a total parody
of the nineteen eighty six film Fairest Bueller's Day Off,
starring Matthew Broderick and your character Olivia. Like everyone in
the film is trying to find Brenda, who is the
fairest in this story. It's awesome. It's about black nerds.
I just love that these guys are sitting around. It's
(24:27):
white guys as black guys. They're on the set and
out of nowhere, this conversation unfolds about a book called
Web of Stars Saga One Quantum Tunnel, a story about Shakiare,
a space miner stuck on a dead end rock. I mean,
come on, you can't make this stuff up. And they
play this scene to the t and here's the clip.
(24:50):
Let me just go ahead and dive in. I didn't
like you, his subhuman identical doppelganger. I mean, he's evil,
he's ugly, his girlfriend is deeply unhappy with his penis.
Every fight he gets into he gets to quote greenshit
unquote beat outible. A good villain is supposed to be
the hero of his own story, but this guy's a
disappointment to himself. I mean, it's catch phrases. Why am
I so whack Chicago over everything? All day? Those actors
(25:16):
are just so genius and they all Chicago man, So
I just gotta keep I'm gonna wave that flag. I
don't care. I love that scene. When Kleil and I
started talking about the show, this is the piece of
it that he kept on coming back to. Yeah, and
you know, because it's about black nerds, you identified, Yeah,
it's it's about black nerves. It's okay, fine, I missed that,
(25:39):
got it. I don't know how they got through that scene.
I mean, like, like seriously, those are comic geniuses who
are talking about and that's why this scene is so
perfect because it's for the black nerds. So it's like
it's that hood shit and then it's that nerd shit,
and it's all coming into one. Yeah. Yeah, So how
(26:02):
did you see this episode? In conversation with that movie?
She has to go and chase after the lead act.
So in a way, it feels like the character Rooney
that's chasing after Ferris. It also feels like this completely
made up character, which it is, and there was a
lot of freedom in that. But it's also Ferris's sister
(26:25):
Olivia in this particular episode of Southside is pulling from
a lot of the characters in the original movie, and
I was a little intimidated by it, to be honest
with you, and I just want to lean into this
a little more because in whatever it is, like twenty
something minutes, there's sort of like a scene for seeing,
(26:45):
you know, recreation of Ferris Bueller's day off, but in
a sort of black context, a Chicago black context. Instead
of going a Cubs game, they go to a Socks game, yes,
as they should. Instead of going to the Art Institute,
they go to the Disable Museum of African American History,
which I love, absolutely love. There's just a beautiful scene there.
(27:06):
It's like, you know, lyrical. Actually it's a silent moment
where they're just looking at the art. I love that because,
first of all, I had the great pleasure of meeting
Margaret Burrows, the founder of the DuSable Museum, when I
was eight years old. You know, she was an educator
and she also went to my grammar school and so like,
(27:28):
I've known some of these heroes my entire life. So
we grew up going to the Dussable Museum. I held
hands with my first boyfriend on the field trip at
the DuSable Museum. I know, shout out to you, Brian Daniels.
So those things are iconic, but you don't see it
(27:48):
on film. Yeah, yeah, So seeing it in this episode
it gives me a lot of pleasure and joy and
I'm like, see how hard that was? Not? Yes, there's
one more famous scene to shout out. So everyone listening
to this who is of a certain generation remembers the
famous scene and faris Bueller when he's not in school
that day. Of course. It's it's in the opening first
(28:10):
quarter of the film, and his teacher is calling out
his name and it's very monotone, Bueller Bueller, Bueller Bueller.
So so there's there's a riff on that obviously in
south In this episode of south Side, it's out a
white Sox game. There's actually a sock full of French
(28:33):
fries there. And she's also calling somebody's name who is
Bulah with a you know, like like Bullah shoot Smith
to school right next to my house, Bula Bulla, somebody
name last a woman's first names. Yeah, oh man, it's
(28:53):
so so good. I was just gonna say one last
thing about this. You know, you were talking about clowning,
and you're talking about you know, Cleil, you were even
talking about the shows that you think is like and
South Side feels like the Simpsons, Like they're all of
these personalities that are characters in and I'm of cells
and they populate this world. It happens to be Englewood
on the South Side of Chicago, and in all of
(29:16):
its details too, it really is that place. But it
also feels like these humans who were like animated and
alive and like you can connect with them in a
way that you were saying, slick no matter where you're
from or where you're connecting to this show. I think
that that is so accurate. And on point one day,
talking to their main director, Michael Blyden is just super
(29:37):
smart and a nice guy. He actually described it as
such that it was like the Simpsons. Some of these
characters appear and reappear, and they have you know, they
come in different forms, and that to me, that feels
like a creative team that's thoughtful because they're creating an ensemble.
So you might see an actor in one season as
(29:59):
one character and then they come back another season on
South Side and they're a completely different character. And it's
the testament to uh, not only the skill set of
the actor, but like the show doesn't take itself too seriously,
but it also is like, I don't know, building this
crazy multiverse, and I'm into it. So yeah, I think
(30:21):
your dad, you're spot on, Ben. So we're gonna talk
about another show set in Chicago. FXI show on Hulu
called The Bear. We'll be right back after the break,
(30:44):
all right, So we're gonna talk about The Bear here, guys.
And this is another show set in Chicago. It just
finished its first season, and the premise of the show
this guy Carmen. He comes back home to run the
family's Italian beef shop. You know, carlimanbra Speedina. Can you
start new shot in there from I need my fellow first,
Jeff Carliman beef It had potentials. We have sister, but
(31:10):
you could punch him, blanche him, freez him frying before
the beach. Right, Okay, his brother has died by suicide
and his brother had run this Italian beef shop, and
now Carmen is back in Chicago, this high end chef
who was working in New York City, and now he
wants to run the Italian beef place like it's like
it's a Michelin Star restaurant. He doesn't exactly want to
(31:33):
run it, but he has to run it. Carmi, the
main character, aka the Bear that's his family nickname, is
this really troubled soul. He's come from the highest end
of the cooking world. He's been to the top of
the mountain, and he's basically had his butt kicked. His
self esteem is at its slowest, and he finds himself
(31:53):
inheriting the family business. And it's a shit show. They
just got a C rating from the Board of Health,
so they're they're barely making it. I mean, do you
love this show as much as we do? I have
such a this role reaction to this show because I
felt like it snatched my wig off. I was like, God, damn,
(32:16):
I'm not even wearing one today, and this is snatching
off the good place front. What is this short answer? Yes,
it's a good goddamn show, all right. Usually I watched
a show with a stank. I especially when it's in Chicago,
because I'm like, how come Nane call me and I
don't like that shit? No way, Um, I'm just kidding,
but I absolutely love that show. That show is definitely
(32:39):
written for me for so many different reasons. I have
worked in the restaurant world as a server. Oh wow.
I'm definitely someone who grew up in kitchens. I come
from three generations of cooks. Like I grew up in
a household where you could not be in the kitchen
with my mother unless you were talking about food or
(32:59):
unless you were chopping. There was no like no, And
I'm in the same way when I'm in the kitchen.
Let's talk more about this sense of setting in city.
Doesn't matter that this show is set in Chicago, Like,
you know, could it be set somewhere else or is
that part of its meaning? You could argue that this
show could be set in Philadelphia. M I see why
(33:23):
you're picking Philly. It's like you can it's a it's
a blue collar, tough town as cold as this. It's
like you could swap out the Italian beef arguably for
a Philly cheese steak. This that's just an example, but
the Italian beef is a superior sandwich. Okay, just for
the record, Just for the record, And I understand why
(33:46):
it's set in Chicago. Really, are you really are living
and die in Chicago? Yeah? I think this show is
very Chicago. I also if you just like look at it,
like just take the pilot episode and you just step
back from a technical standpoint, Yes, Like the character comes in,
he has there's this expository information we don't know too
(34:08):
much about. He has a challenge, he has to figure
the shit out. He goes through the bullshit with the team,
and then at the end of the episode he's like,
fuck it, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go against it.
So like it's set up very neatly in terms of
TV Land, but there's something about it that feels very Chicago.
You know, what the fuck are you know the Kennedy
(34:29):
chill the fuck out, Citer listen, Naperville, No fucking Cicero's
in will met Now you gotta get on the That's right,
that's right, that's so we're hurry to see that motherfucker. Well,
I know Ben has uh, I mean been being there
and for him this is daily life. For me, it's
you know it's just an occasional visit. But all these
(34:51):
scenes of the elevated train, the l the skyscrapers off
in the distance, this sense of like a grimy place. Uh.
I personally love the interplay of like the old immigrant
Italian heritage and the new kind of black and Latino
presence in the kitchen, as this like mashup of old
(35:12):
and new. That's so interesting. Khalil talking about griminess and
you even saying, you know, slick, that it might be Philly.
Like to me, in this show, Chicago equals grit, grime, toughness, Right,
there's this idea that they want to convey and you're right,
like working class and sort of this kind of you know,
low end food that people love. You know, it's not
high end food. I don't think there's a single shot
(35:35):
with sunshine in the entire show, Like it's either a
night shot or it's overcast. Like there's such sort of
you know, grimness you know throughout the whole thing. You
know is that there is an idea of Chicago. But
of course, like I'll just compare it to the South Side,
Like there are no neighborhood shots. There's like Khalil, you
(35:55):
were talking about things like the l and the lake
and buildings, and sometimes we're traveling and then we're inside
interiors or we're in alleys, but we're never in like
a place, a community where people live, and certainly not
with sunshine and you know, neighbors and things like that.
I love that. To me, that is a very specific
(36:16):
and smart idea because when I watch shows that are
set in like northern Europe, I love those. I love
the Ship to set in Finland and Scotland because they're
like these heavy blue overtone you know, it's great, it's
not sunny. This show plays on this idea of the
kitchen itself as a melting pot, as a place where
(36:38):
culture comes together, and I think that's really really beautiful.
We want to play a scene though, of like when
culture comes together and then shit goes crazy, like like,
because as much as we might romanticize the idea of
a melting pot, these folks are not always getting along.
There's you know, the Latino folks, there's black folks, there's
(36:59):
you know, the white guys who are our Italian heritage,
and all of their ethnic identities are really played up
to some degree in this show. So we're going to
play a clip of Richie, the Italian cousin who was
the best friend of the guy who died, who is
just kind of like your asshole's asshole, but he's something
fundamentally endearing about this guy. And then Sydney, who is
(37:19):
this young black woman who is super well educated. She
went to Culinary Institute of the Arts, and she comes
into this kitchen and she's like, what is happening here?
Except she grew up eating that food and she thinks
it's an amazing place and she wants to help to
change it. So here's a scene from Richie and Sydney
trying to figure each other out. You know, the restaurant
could be good, like I know, you know that, Like
(37:43):
it doesn't have to be a place where the food
is shitty and where everybody acts shitty and feels shitty.
Like it could be a good legit spot. Okay, you
know what, Sydney're getting a little aggressive, and I think
maybe you should just pause and take a breath before
you start driving. Man or woman. I'm not discriminating. It's
dangerous to get behind the wheel when you're hysterical. It's
(38:04):
so interesting, I mean, I love that you picked that
clip Khalil of Richie and Sydney and like a sort
of like a crux of attensions. You know, older, younger, white, Black.
He didn't even finish a technical school. She's you know,
super well educated. Yeah, and you know those divisions in
this setting which brings them together. That certainly doesn't have
(38:26):
to be Chicago, you know, any city that has a diversity.
How can we bring people who are different together? What's
a place that can bring them together? And once they're together, shit, Like,
there's all sorts of drama that's going to unfold and slick.
Maybe you can talk about this. This isn't a lot
of ways a wider show than The South Side, of course,
but there's this way that the Kitchen is written almost
(38:47):
like a stage play, Like you could write a play
that's set in the kitchen, and because it's a workplace,
it brings all these different people together. How did you
see that in terms of like racial dynamics and letting
them play out in this setting? In many ways, when
I watched this, I was like, well, this is a
little bit of a documentary because kitchens can be extraordinarily
(39:08):
not just the kids and restaurants can be so segregated.
You might see dishwashers that might be Latine or Latin
X or Hispanic or whatever. You might see some cooks
on the line that are mostly male and uh, you
know a variety of ethnic and racisms such there aren't
(39:29):
very many women or films in the kitchen. Usually the
chef de cuisine is you know, some really fucked up
angry white dude. Uh. You know, you might come into
the whole stand and see someone of color. You might
see like, you know, I've also seen the kitchens where
it's like you got you know, black folks in the
back chopping things, but not on the floor. So like
(39:51):
it's a it's a very hierarchical, very hierarchical. It's high. Yes,
everything is at play, the hierarchy, the patriarchy. Yeah. So
in this show, I love that they're to me, they're
just a band of misfits. That's really it is, like
he returns to Misfit Island and he's trying to get
(40:12):
them ready for the Macy's Parade and they just not
you know, the Macy's Parade, right, right, But I love
that he comes back to try to implement this French brigade,
which is like a terrible idea. It's also like I
(40:33):
get the discipline of it, but it's problematic. And so
you have this, uh, this young black woman who has
gone to the CIA, so you know that she knows
how to sharpen her knives and chop it up and
make a stew And that's the Culinary Institute of America.
It's not the Central Intelligence. No, it's not. So you
(40:54):
have that, but then you also have the like she's
basically coming in, she's saying like, we can do something
better and coming in with a better business model. I
completely understand that, coming from a mother who managed and
operated family owned businesses, so I understood how I got
(41:15):
everything in this show. So it feels really really real
to me. We have a question for you, So, um,
if we can get you hired to write for season
two of The Bear, what would you do differently? I
think the show does not take for granted that the
audience is dumb and that you have to feed them
(41:36):
pardoning you know, pardon the pun, but that you have
to spoon feed them everything. And as a writer, that
makes me happy. And so if you put me on
season two as a writer, like the thing I would
do differently is like become a writer and then put
myself in the cast. And that's what I wanted to try, right,
(42:00):
I would do it like like in Rocky you know
how how Nick his coach who's like this, you know,
quintessential Irish guy turns out to be Jewish and like
you know Rocky three or for something, that's what I
would do. It turns out that all these Italian guys
are Jewish, and that's and then like it moves into
like you know, Skokie and the synagogues and they start
selling they start selling Italian beef on bagels, right, you know,
(42:23):
like a little schnitzel, and like you know, I would
like you love it? Yeah, so oh well, well, Slick,
it has been amazing to have you on the show.
You know, your career is blooming at this time. You
just close to play nineteen nineteen inspired by the poetry
of Eviewing, and I know Ben got a chance to
see the play, and so we're just super excited that
(42:46):
you took some time out to join us when some
of my best friends are today. We wish you all
the best in your continued work time as a construct,
and I'm glad I got to spend it with two
people whom I just adore. Thank you both, seriously. Yeah yeah,
And you're talking about our aligned paths, me and you
and sort of like imagining the city. I'm with you.
Let's go, let's keep on doing it. Slick is raising
(43:09):
arms and making these giant muscles, giant muscles. Let's go.
Let's fucking go, man, Khalil. I feel like I'm not
done talking about the Bear. I'm still thinking about it
in terms of Chicago. Well, that's what a great television does, right,
(43:30):
keeps the conversation going, That's what a great podcast is.
It's just a starter for conversation. But but you know,
I'm thinking about as it's Chicago aspects, you know, watching
it in this way, and I think it's different than
Southside in a lot of ways. Okay, break it down
to me. It feels like it's made by outsiders. And
there are all these sort of like literal billboards and
(43:51):
I'm using literal correctly here. There'll be these billboards here
that are like giant Chicago nests, things like lord, this
like terrible drink that people drink here, Like signposts like
remember this is Chicago, this is Chicago. This is Chicago.
Here's the l here's the lake. It's all exteriors, like
it gets a lot the Chicago things wrong, you know,
and this is like the nippicky Chicago stuff. But also
(44:13):
like I'm okay with it. And I think I'm okay
with it because because the intimacy of that, those kitchen
scenes that we talked about, which in a way could
be anywhere, but like the dynamics that happened there. Yeah,
you know, I probably don't feel the same way you
do about it. It's more outsider perspective and the way
that they use all these symbols of Chicago. And I'll
(44:34):
tell you why bring it? Why? Because yeah, because when
we worked at Hyde Park Computers, a place where we
met when we were fourteen. Yeah, fourteen years old. You
were my boss. Boom. That's right. We were in a
place although it wasn't a kitchen, it was kind of like,
what is happening on this television show? You are writing
our next paycheck right here? Hyde Park Computer is the
(44:55):
TV show, the sitcom. You had Ed the Irish Catholic John,
the Jewish guy from New Jersey. You had Jeff, the
Polish descended guy from the North Side, Abraham, the Mexican
American descended along with Jerry Man. Holy cow, you had
black guy Aaron, you had Jeff who was Chinese American
and who was from the University of Chicago. It was
this crazy stew of people. All we wanted to make
(45:18):
was the perfect computer store. We just wanted to make
the best computers are Pole. You're right, but think about it,
we had our own French brigade of making computers back then. Yeah,
and so in a way, the show actually makes me
feel more like a Chicago because, unlike what most people
think of this, you know, crazy segregated city, which it
(45:38):
is true, there are these pockets of amazingness where people
from all walks of life do live life together. They
work together, they play together, they love together. And that's
what I love about both Southside and The Bear. Yeah
you said it, and Slick said this so beautifully when
she said you need to forge relationships with communities that
these TV shows and that you can make the universal
(46:00):
in the specific two things that are going to stay
with me. Oh, I love it, oh Man. Yes. And
you know, for the second season of The Bear, when
it's said in a Jewish delicatessen becomes Manny's Delhi. I
think we're gonna even develop these themes more, you know,
like when they have the matzo ball fight. I mean,
this is gonna be amazing, all right. I'll want to
look forward to that, all right, man, Love you, Love you.
(46:27):
Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me
Khalil Dubron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. It's
produced by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is
Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our
executive producer is Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to Leita Mulad,
(46:49):
Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Greta Khne,
and Jacob Weissberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by
fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman.
You definitely want to check out his music at his
website Avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin
(47:10):
on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can
sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To
find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you like to listen. And if you like
our show, please give us a five star rating and
a review and listen even if you don't like to
give it a five star rating and a review, and
(47:31):
please tell all of your best friends about it. Thank you,
Push it. Happy holidays everyone, I know this is a
special time of year. We are taking a few weeks
off and we'll be back with some of my best friends.
Are in mid January, this time dropping in your feet
on Wednesdays instead of Tuesdays. We'll catch you then have
a wonderful holiday season. I was also fortunate enough to
(00:39):
be a part of the cast of Fargo. It's set
in Kansas City, but it was so, so so Chicago.
It felt like Chicago. You were Chris Rock's wife. No,
Chris Rock was my husband. I'm Khalil Gibrad Muhammed and
(01:02):
I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends, one black, one white.
I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is
some of my best friends are. Some of my best
friends are dot dot dot. In this show, we wrestle
with the challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided
and unequal country. And in this episode we are talking
(01:23):
about two of our favorite television shows right now. They
tell us so much about how places themselves, like cities,
play a huge part in how we understand the divisions
in our country and how we might come together. They
give us so much joy and we want you to
enjoy them too. Man, TV as knowledge. I like this
Kalila Entertainment. We got it before we get started. I
(01:47):
just wanted to let you know this episode has some
strong language. Just a fair warning, but stick around something
not only what's up, Kalila, How you doing. I'm good, man,
(02:08):
I'm good. Loved what you just said about TV shows,
you know where they're set, being like a character in
itself and being so important to the actual story. Yeah,
to how we understand, like you know, who we are
and our neighbors and even what informs how we think
about the world. And I love movies like that. I
love TV shows like that. I love books like that.
But I'm thinking about TV shows that are set in
(02:29):
a certain place and how there's a pleasure when you're
familiar with the place to see to see the familiar.
And you know, we have both seen Abbot Elementary set
in Philadelphia, in an elementary school there. Oh man, it's great,
And just like recognizing the flavors of Philadelphia with the
attitudes and the food, the food, like the aspects of
a place. Yes, and a show that friends turned me
(02:51):
onto a couple of years ago, The Ozarks and I
was very slow to watch it, but oh my god,
I'm like totally immersed in this other world that I've
never been to, never thought about going to, and the
place is so much a part of what makes that
show work. Yeah, and so that's another idea, like you're
actually using that show to travel summer you've never been
in to learn about it. That's right. And sometimes of
(03:12):
course you're you're learning things that actually don't aren't very
representative of it, are No. No, there's this danger of
like a Hollywood version of a place where it's a
total caricature and it's misleading. And then there are all
shows that were like are very organic and made by
local artists and it's it's the real real. And actually
that's a good point because if you think about it,
when you don't actually know a place very well, you
(03:33):
can't actually evaluate what's going on, what are the interventions,
what are the writers trying to tell us about this
place that we didn't already know? Boom, And that's why
we're here today because we're going to talk about two
Chicago TV shows. Yep, So we're going to talk about
HBO Max's original series called south Side. It is a
comedy send up of this predatory lending furniture place called
(03:55):
Rent to Own, and we learned so much about so
many different types of Chicago INDs and also just like
the crazy stuff that happens in a city when folks
are trying to get their hustle on. And in the
second part of the show, we're going to talk about
a TV show called The Bear, which is on x Hulu.
I love that show and it's actually sort of setting
(04:16):
a kind of ambiguous near North side of Chicago inside
an Italian beef shop. And as a guest today, this
is amazing. We have on Jay Nicole Brooks, who is
an actor on the South Side. She's not on The Bear,
but she's an amazing Chicago an amazing Chicago actor, writer,
intellectual creator, playwright. Yes, and she and I actually met
(04:38):
several years ago when I finished my book about Cabrini Green,
you know, this public housing development on the near North
side of Chicago known for its infamy, because she was
writing a play about Jane Byrne, Chicago's mayor, who moves
into Cabrini Green into an apartment in nineteen eighty one,
and I had a whole chapter in my book about that,
and so here she and I are getting together and
like chopping up, like how we each came at this
(05:01):
story from like, you know, a narrative nonfiction way, from
a totally like fictional theatrical way, and you know, we
just totally hit it off because we doing the same work.
And how Chicago matters so much to the stories that
you tell from very different approaches. Yeah, that the meaning
of the place is so significant. So let's just jump
in with Jane Nicole Brooks and ye, because she's amazing.
(05:22):
I love it. Let's do it. Well, Hello, it's great
to see you. It's great to have you on. Likewise,
I'm so so happy to be here and kick it
what y'all? Thank you. You are the bomb dignity. But
I'm not sure what to call you for this interview.
(05:44):
I mean, I know your name is Jane Nicole Brooks,
but what do you go by? It depends on the situation.
You know, if you are like a white person that
owns a corporation and I owe you money, is probably Dianna.
If you are in the arts as Jaye Nicole Brooks,
and if you're friends, you can call me Slick, So
please call me slick. All right, Slick, I like that
(06:08):
we are gonna art by playing a clip from the
HBO comedy The South Side, from a little moment that
you're in one of the episodes, Alixander, good night. Can
I help me? Olivia? I'm a pa oh. I thought
thea were usually kind of on the you know, fresh
out of college, kind of a younger reconde. Okay, well
I'm a late blooman, get off my dinner, getting off
(06:30):
your dick, and I'm off of it. Can I help you? So? Uh? Slick?
I mean basically, I'm playing that because we're gonna we
want to get on your metaphorical dick here a little
bit and and and talk to you at first about
like who you are professionally, all the amazing stuff that
you you've accomplished. Can you describe yourself as a Chicago
(06:51):
actor and writer and creator? As far as my history
here in Chicago, I'm born and raised here, and uh,
I studied theater and performance and dance since I was fifteen.
And though I've lived in Los Angeles and New York,
Chicago has always planned at home. And after years of
(07:12):
being away and hustling all over, Chicago is pretty much
the place where my acting career sort of took a
pop and started climbing to places where I didn't quite
know it would And it's been I don't know, it's
been a beautiful joy in one of those places with Southside.
(07:33):
So you've been on the Southside, What else have you
been on? I'm also what we call a recurring character,
a guest star recurring on Chicago Fire. I play well
currently like one of the highest ranking characters. I play
DC Hills, So she's the deputy commissioner over the entire
fire department. Right, all right, hey, pop um, you know
(07:57):
I like I like telling people what to do because
we know how black women in Chicago have risen to
the highest ranks of the Chicago Fire Department. Absolutely, and
you know what, that role is actually inspired by actual individuals,
So shout out to all of the black films and
women that are first responders and then the fire department.
(08:21):
So there's that. I've also played a cap on the
first two seasons of The Shy. I played a character
called Sergeant Clements. She was a sergeant in the police department. Yeah,
we love that show. Well, I should say I love
The Shy. Just amazing don't speak for me. Yea, the acting,
(08:42):
the storytelling, the writing, and another show with a lot
of complexity about black people. I mean, I think that's
one of the things that makes The Shy so interesting. Yes,
you know, as an actor, I have my experiences. As
a writer, I might have other thoughts as a creative,
you know what I mean, Love it or not love it?
(09:05):
Any of these shows that are set in Chicago, the
ones I've been involved with, have really been a great
joy to work on. And it's just always funny to
me how you know, Like we have our opinions about
how they're done, and I got plenty of them, you know.
So I'm a Chicago and I love my city. But
I haven't lived in Chicago since I was twenty two
(09:27):
years old. And one of the things that Ben and
I talk a lot about is like what this city
means to us as the shared place that helped us
become the adults we are and the writers we are
and the people who care deeply about you know, really
big questions. I'm curious for you though, since you have
lived over the places, what is it about Chicago and
(09:47):
your artistry that is so compelling? Oh sweet baby, mallord. Okay,
first of all, you know, first of all, I think
that when you are fortunate enough to be born and
bred here, there's a certain pride that you grow up with.
And I don't care what the industry is or what
(10:09):
a category might be. It's like Chicago over everything everywhere,
you know, And it's also like we're Midwestern and so
we're nice, tough guys. I think. I like that. Let
me ask a related question, which is, you know, you're
also a playwright and a screenwriter. I mean, so you're
writing stories about Chicago. What are like the representations of
(10:30):
Chicago that you're sort of like working against that you're
trying to subvert. You know that these depictions of the
city that are out there in TV and film and
plays that you're like, I am going to show something
that's different or more complicated or other. Well, Ben, I
definitely feel you know, I feel like you and I
have so much in common, you know what I mean,
like coming from some of the same parts of town
(10:53):
and growing up in the same way. So I don't
know if these are some of the things that you
feel as a creator, but for me personally, I feel
like there's so many other cities across the nation, and
when it comes to home and TV and things like that,
we know their personalities. Yeah, And I feel like with
(11:15):
the city of Chicago, when it's represented on screen, we
don't always get a sense of the personality. And it's
often because it's people that are creating it and don't
know shit about the city. So what are they showing instead?
Oh my god, they're showing Chicago and Toronto. And I
get that that's a protos oial thing. I get it,
(11:36):
but it's visually missing the grit and the gorgeous, fucked
up architecture. I know when I'm looking in New York,
I know when I'm looking at la I know when
I'm looking at Paris. But sometimes when I look at Chicago,
is it a surface thing? Why set something in Chicago?
What idea they're going at? And then like, how do
you like use Chicago Differently? If you don't understand how
(12:01):
this city came to be, you really won't get the
nuance of it. So for me, I'm a history nerd,
and I care about what was in existence before I
came along because that adversely affects my work. So sometimes
(12:21):
in my work it might be like an Easter egg
is just something you kind of see. And I know,
as a writer and as a creator, I don't really
give a fuck if you don't understand a Chicago joke.
I don't give a fuck if you don't understand something
that is uniquely Chicago, because I'm writing for Chicago's interesting,
And if you are a good writer, I'm gonna just
(12:42):
like leave it at this. If you're a good writer,
you can really achieve the universal through the specific. So
keep your ship laser focus and give me something that
I actually can get behind and believe, because otherwise you're
giving me procedural drama that I like being on. I
(13:04):
like those shows because they pay well. But like you know,
give us some nuance because we it's what's there. So
if you understand the hyper segregation, it's going to filter
into your work. If you understand that, like we have
gangster mayors and always have, it's going to go into
the work or whatever, and gangster governors. We have had
(13:27):
so many jailbird governors, you know. Well, speaking of keeping
it real in terms of the nuances of Chicago. After
the break, we're gonna come back and talk about this
amazing show that you've been part of South Side. The
show just dropped its third season, so when we come
back more on the south Side. So you are bringing
(14:03):
up shows that feel like authentically Chicago and that are
grappling with sort of all the hyper segregation and all
the other issues of the city. And so we have
this comedy that we want to talk about the South
Side on HBO and it's set in Englewood and Englewood.
You and I have both written about Cabrini Green. Englewood
is like the new Cabrini Green is sort of like
(14:24):
a shorthand, and the way people think of Chicago a
shorthand for like crime, segregation, mostly black neighborhood, to think
about total separation, to think about like the scariest parts
of the city. And this comedy is really like anything
but that it does deal with poverty, segregation, crime policing,
(14:45):
but in a way that sort of subverts all of
these unbiased but we want that, we want that. I'm
extraordinarily proud of this team because they are not only
writing about it, they film in these communities, They film
on the West Side, they film all over the South Side,
(15:07):
and they get into places where I've known other creative
teams and crews where they're like, oh, we can't get
the insurance, we don't feel safe there and it's not safe.
And I'm like, well, why are these guys able to
do it? And I think it's because you have to
forge a relationship with communities, and I've watched these guys
(15:29):
do that. I'll tell you super quick anecdote. The first
time I auditioned for Southside is an actor. I heard
about the script and then I was like, all right,
this is a comedy in Chicago is probably not going
to make it past pilot because no one gives Chicago
a chance. Like I'm like, Chicago has the funniest motherfuckers
on the planet, yet we don't have comedies here, blah
(15:50):
blah blah. So I get the sides and I'm like, oh,
this scene is kind of funny. I was like, damn,
this scene is really funny. Yeah, damn, this seems real real.
So I was like, you know what, is probably gonna
go to a Hollywood big name, so fuck it. I
don't care. I'm gonna show up and be a chice
cargo as I can because I'm not gonna get it.
(16:11):
So I showed up in do Rag my Jordan's I
had on my my Bulls jersey and like, I just
gave it to him. I was like, fuck it, I'm
not gonna get it. And they're probably gonna say, we
don't understand your vernacular. And if you you thought it
was gonna go to knee along, listen, if I ever
in my lifetime lose a role to knee along, trust me,
(16:33):
I'm getting that tattooed on my forehead. She lost the
role to you. Come on, let's go, let's shout out
to knee along. But my point of that story is
that not only in that audition process with the director, writers,
and a couple of producers, not only were they into
it and encouraged it. I booked the part and then
(16:56):
I'm like, Okay, the network is going to say, now
we got to change it, but it's Comedy Central. They
don't give a fuck. So it was on Comedy Central,
and then it got picked up by HBO initially, and
then it got picked up by HBO. Max Yeah, and
you get on the set and you're like, oh my god,
they're gonna let me be my authentic self. They're gonna
let Chicago be Chicago. And once you like sink into
(17:20):
it and relax. The show just really flies because it's
honest to itself. It's not trying to write Chicago so
that the entire world understands it. It's just what it is,
and you just got to catch up to it. I
just smile brightly because I think that's really dope and
(17:40):
not always the case. Yeah, well, I love that you're
speaking to this kind of authenticity about the way that
the South Side is depicted in Inglewood, being this community
that I was often written out is a dangerous place
that one should go to about. I don't know. Seven
years ago, I was invited to the culinary school that
(18:00):
was built as part of Kennedy King College there and
it was the first time that I had actually done
anything professionally in Inglewood, and I thought, this is amazing
that there's this cooking school in this community that people think,
you know, you should do everything in your power to
avoid if you don't happen to live there. So you're
absolutely right. This community is way more rich and compelling
(18:25):
than we often think about. But the show itself, which
I just love, is to me like a cross between
the Office and like The Odyssey, because every episode is
an adventure that these guys have to overcome some set
of obstacles, some set of challenges. All of the main
characters come on, man, shout out to Homer. Okay, come
(18:47):
on with the Year of Joy in my groove, y'all,
let me finish. So there's all these anti stereotypes and
we just absolutely love this for what it does to
make complex the brilliance of black people in that city.
I'm gonna tell you something. As an actor, I'm like,
if I don't get a chance to do another that
(19:09):
that's set in Chicago, I still feel like I won.
On the first season The South Side, my character was
in an episode called The Day of the Jordans Drop
and it's literally the you know, it's all about the
Jordans and yeah, new a new version of the or
Jordan's coming out. Hey, look, brou if it was any
other day, we will pull over. I mean, but he
(19:30):
them new Jordans is coming out, and we got to
get back west and finished this all up before the
hit sales out. Hey what if I told you there's
a store near you right now that never sails out where?
Really I get stuff up trying and it's just such
a Chicago hilarious episode. So it was just a lot
of fucking fun to do it in this way. You
(19:53):
had talked about how the specific can be universal, and certainly,
like the three of us all had these roots not
just in Chicago but on the South Side. And so
I watched this show and even as a white dude
who grew up in the South Side, it just speaks
to me and like all these like you know, arounds
are popping right, Like they talk about the stuck up
girls at Kenwood High School where we went to, you know,
(20:15):
we went to Kenwood, and not just that I'm married
my prom date, you know, like like I'm still married
to this dug up girl from Keo who's amazing and wonderful, Danielle,
I love you. But they're all kinds of Chicago things
like that. There's this one scene we're about to play
a clip from where one of the characters is inside
a Harold's Chicken Shack and he wants more of their
(20:35):
famous Mile sauce, you know, which is like this mixture
of tangy barbecue sauce, and the woman behind the bulletproof
glass is refusing to give him more. Thank you, kind sir,
Can I have five more mile sauces. I really loved
the stuff. Hey Donovan, yo talk about he want five
mile sauces, five five law sauces. This is always you
three piece of white No he happiness a day man.
(20:56):
I love that clip. I have lived that experience inside
Harold's no doubt. But there are all these other kinds
of Chicago things, which is just amazing. There's an episode
that uses the idea of DIBs, which is, you know,
on a snowy day, when you clear the walk in
front of your house, you start putting your furniture out
there to make sure that nobody else parks in your spot.
It is totally Chicago gangster. And there are all these
(21:17):
other Chicago things too. There's an episode on stepping, which
is a kind of local dancing and house music, and
and Khalil loves golf. I know that Khalil loves golf. Yeah,
there's the scene of Jackson Park, which of course probably
the most dangerous golf course in America. It's like literally
the journey from I believe Whole number nine to Whole
(21:38):
number ten. You you cross a kind of a baby highway,
and that's a that's a plot point in the show,
and you know there's like there's like a riff on
Italian Fiesta. Chance the rapper actually makes a really good
joke about like how depressed he is. He's like, my
favorite restaurants Italian Fiesta. I'm sad, to be honest, I
hate my life. Why do I have to name tags
on They both say currency exchange. My favorite restaurant is
(22:00):
Italian Fiesta on the South Side. Love that place. Some
two words don't go together. Absolutely, one is Italian, one
is Mexican. That's joke ever, but you know, so throwing
that back on you, like national audience is listening to
this and being like, I don't get all the references.
Is there a butt to that? But I didn't grow
up in Queens and I catch all jokes. Yeah yeah,
(22:23):
but I didn't grow up in Brooklyn, And you know
what I mean, That's just what I feel about it,
Or New Jersey and I'm watching the Sopranos or like
absolutely which exit I don't fucking know shit about Jersey,
Like you know what I mean? So like, I feel like,
as a viewer, we are trained to accept the personalities
of other cities, and so now I honestly feel like
(22:44):
Southside is taking a charge in training. And I say
that lovingly and respectfully, but like really grabbing the viewer,
like yoking them up and saying, catch up. This is Chicago,
this is what we do. Yeah. And if you don't
understand the Kimwood references and like, the show just doesn't care.
(23:05):
And to me, the show does the best with clowning
because if you're a true clown. I've set this so
many times before. I mean it, A true clown doesn't
do a joke for a setup. A clown just stays
in it. And if they happen to get the laugh, great,
but the clown has to keep going. And that's the
(23:26):
fucking difference you deliver the next joke. Yeah, you gotta
keep going. Yeah, that's a beautifully put that. We learned
something from that about how to Yeah. So I feel
like Bob Newhart and you know, the creative team behind
south Side like both, well fucking done. And so when
they invited me back the second season to be in
(23:46):
this episode that's a take on Ferris Bueller's Day Off,
which I grew up just like totally idolizing that movie,
I was like, god, damn, I won again. I just
grew up a nerd for that movie and knowing every
line and all of it. So it was just a
lot of fucking fun to do it. So in this episode,
(24:07):
Brenda and Turner's Day Off, it is a total parody
of the nineteen eighty six film Fairest Bueller's Day Off,
starring Matthew Broderick and your character Olivia. Like everyone in
the film is trying to find Brenda, who is the
fairest in this story. It's awesome. It's about black nerds.
I just love that these guys are sitting around. It's
(24:27):
white guys as black guys. They're on the set and
out of nowhere, this conversation unfolds about a book called
Web of Stars Saga One Quantum Tunnel, a story about Shakiare,
a space miner stuck on a dead end rock. I mean,
come on, you can't make this stuff up. And they
play this scene to the t and here's the clip.
(24:50):
Let me just go ahead and dive in. I didn't
like you, his subhuman identical doppelganger. I mean, he's evil,
he's ugly, his girlfriend is deeply unhappy with his penis.
Every fight he gets into he gets to quote greenshit
unquote beat outible. A good villain is supposed to be
the hero of his own story, but this guy's a
disappointment to himself. I mean, it's catch phrases. Why am
I so whack Chicago over everything? All day? Those actors
(25:16):
are just so genius and they all Chicago man, So
I just gotta keep I'm gonna wave that flag. I
don't care. I love that scene. When Kleil and I
started talking about the show, this is the piece of
it that he kept on coming back to. Yeah, and
you know, because it's about black nerds, you identified, Yeah,
it's it's about black nerves. It's okay, fine, I missed that,
(25:39):
got it. I don't know how they got through that scene.
I mean, like, like seriously, those are comic geniuses who
are talking about and that's why this scene is so
perfect because it's for the black nerds. So it's like
it's that hood shit and then it's that nerd shit,
and it's all coming into one. Yeah. Yeah, So how
(26:02):
did you see this episode? In conversation with that movie?
She has to go and chase after the lead act.
So in a way, it feels like the character Rooney
that's chasing after Ferris. It also feels like this completely
made up character, which it is, and there was a
lot of freedom in that. But it's also Ferris's sister
(26:25):
Olivia in this particular episode of Southside is pulling from
a lot of the characters in the original movie, and
I was a little intimidated by it, to be honest
with you, and I just want to lean into this
a little more because in whatever it is, like twenty
something minutes, there's sort of like a scene for seeing,
(26:45):
you know, recreation of Ferris Bueller's day off, but in
a sort of black context, a Chicago black context. Instead
of going a Cubs game, they go to a Socks game, yes,
as they should. Instead of going to the Art Institute,
they go to the Disable Museum of African American History,
which I love, absolutely love. There's just a beautiful scene there.
(27:06):
It's like, you know, lyrical. Actually it's a silent moment
where they're just looking at the art. I love that because,
first of all, I had the great pleasure of meeting
Margaret Burrows, the founder of the DuSable Museum, when I
was eight years old. You know, she was an educator
and she also went to my grammar school and so like,
(27:28):
I've known some of these heroes my entire life. So
we grew up going to the Dussable Museum. I held
hands with my first boyfriend on the field trip at
the DuSable Museum. I know, shout out to you, Brian Daniels.
So those things are iconic, but you don't see it
(27:48):
on film. Yeah, yeah, So seeing it in this episode
it gives me a lot of pleasure and joy and
I'm like, see how hard that was? Not? Yes, there's
one more famous scene to shout out. So everyone listening
to this who is of a certain generation remembers the
famous scene and faris Bueller when he's not in school
that day. Of course. It's it's in the opening first
(28:10):
quarter of the film, and his teacher is calling out
his name and it's very monotone, Bueller Bueller, Bueller Bueller.
So so there's there's a riff on that obviously in
south In this episode of south Side, it's out a
white Sox game. There's actually a sock full of French
(28:33):
fries there. And she's also calling somebody's name who is
Bulah with a you know, like like Bullah shoot Smith
to school right next to my house, Bula Bulla, somebody
name last a woman's first names. Yeah, oh man, it's
(28:53):
so so good. I was just gonna say one last
thing about this. You know, you were talking about clowning,
and you're talking about you know, Cleil, you were even
talking about the shows that you think is like and
South Side feels like the Simpsons, Like they're all of
these personalities that are characters in and I'm of cells
and they populate this world. It happens to be Englewood
on the South Side of Chicago, and in all of
(29:16):
its details too, it really is that place. But it
also feels like these humans who were like animated and
alive and like you can connect with them in a
way that you were saying, slick no matter where you're
from or where you're connecting to this show. I think
that that is so accurate. And on point one day,
talking to their main director, Michael Blyden is just super
(29:37):
smart and a nice guy. He actually described it as
such that it was like the Simpsons. Some of these
characters appear and reappear, and they have you know, they
come in different forms, and that to me, that feels
like a creative team that's thoughtful because they're creating an ensemble.
So you might see an actor in one season as
(29:59):
one character and then they come back another season on
South Side and they're a completely different character. And it's
the testament to uh, not only the skill set of
the actor, but like the show doesn't take itself too seriously,
but it also is like, I don't know, building this
crazy multiverse, and I'm into it. So yeah, I think
(30:21):
your dad, you're spot on, Ben. So we're gonna talk
about another show set in Chicago. FXI show on Hulu
called The Bear. We'll be right back after the break,
(30:44):
all right, So we're gonna talk about The Bear here, guys.
And this is another show set in Chicago. It just
finished its first season, and the premise of the show
this guy Carmen. He comes back home to run the
family's Italian beef shop. You know, carlimanbra Speedina. Can you
start new shot in there from I need my fellow first,
Jeff Carliman beef It had potentials. We have sister, but
(31:10):
you could punch him, blanche him, freez him frying before
the beach. Right, Okay, his brother has died by suicide
and his brother had run this Italian beef shop, and
now Carmen is back in Chicago, this high end chef
who was working in New York City, and now he
wants to run the Italian beef place like it's like
it's a Michelin Star restaurant. He doesn't exactly want to
(31:33):
run it, but he has to run it. Carmi, the
main character, aka the Bear that's his family nickname, is
this really troubled soul. He's come from the highest end
of the cooking world. He's been to the top of
the mountain, and he's basically had his butt kicked. His
self esteem is at its slowest, and he finds himself
(31:53):
inheriting the family business. And it's a shit show. They
just got a C rating from the Board of Health,
so they're they're barely making it. I mean, do you
love this show as much as we do? I have
such a this role reaction to this show because I
felt like it snatched my wig off. I was like, God, damn,
(32:16):
I'm not even wearing one today, and this is snatching
off the good place front. What is this short answer? Yes,
it's a good goddamn show, all right. Usually I watched
a show with a stank. I especially when it's in Chicago,
because I'm like, how come Nane call me and I
don't like that shit? No way, Um, I'm just kidding,
but I absolutely love that show. That show is definitely
(32:39):
written for me for so many different reasons. I have
worked in the restaurant world as a server. Oh wow.
I'm definitely someone who grew up in kitchens. I come
from three generations of cooks. Like I grew up in
a household where you could not be in the kitchen
with my mother unless you were talking about food or
(32:59):
unless you were chopping. There was no like no, And
I'm in the same way when I'm in the kitchen.
Let's talk more about this sense of setting in city.
Doesn't matter that this show is set in Chicago, Like,
you know, could it be set somewhere else or is
that part of its meaning? You could argue that this
show could be set in Philadelphia. M I see why
(33:23):
you're picking Philly. It's like you can it's a it's
a blue collar, tough town as cold as this. It's
like you could swap out the Italian beef arguably for
a Philly cheese steak. This that's just an example, but
the Italian beef is a superior sandwich. Okay, just for
the record, Just for the record, And I understand why
(33:46):
it's set in Chicago. Really, are you really are living
and die in Chicago? Yeah? I think this show is
very Chicago. I also if you just like look at it,
like just take the pilot episode and you just step
back from a technical standpoint, Yes, Like the character comes in,
he has there's this expository information we don't know too
(34:08):
much about. He has a challenge, he has to figure
the shit out. He goes through the bullshit with the team,
and then at the end of the episode he's like,
fuck it, I'm gonna go I'm gonna go against it.
So like it's set up very neatly in terms of
TV Land, but there's something about it that feels very Chicago.
You know, what the fuck are you know the Kennedy
(34:29):
chill the fuck out, Citer listen, Naperville, No fucking Cicero's
in will met Now you gotta get on the That's right,
that's right, that's so we're hurry to see that motherfucker. Well,
I know Ben has uh, I mean been being there
and for him this is daily life. For me, it's
you know it's just an occasional visit. But all these
(34:51):
scenes of the elevated train, the l the skyscrapers off
in the distance, this sense of like a grimy place. Uh.
I personally love the interplay of like the old immigrant
Italian heritage and the new kind of black and Latino
presence in the kitchen, as this like mashup of old
(35:12):
and new. That's so interesting. Khalil talking about griminess and
you even saying, you know, slick, that it might be Philly.
Like to me, in this show, Chicago equals grit, grime, toughness, Right,
there's this idea that they want to convey and you're right,
like working class and sort of this kind of you know,
low end food that people love. You know, it's not
high end food. I don't think there's a single shot
(35:35):
with sunshine in the entire show, Like it's either a
night shot or it's overcast. Like there's such sort of
you know, grimness you know throughout the whole thing. You
know is that there is an idea of Chicago. But
of course, like I'll just compare it to the South Side,
Like there are no neighborhood shots. There's like Khalil, you
(35:55):
were talking about things like the l and the lake
and buildings, and sometimes we're traveling and then we're inside
interiors or we're in alleys, but we're never in like
a place, a community where people live, and certainly not
with sunshine and you know, neighbors and things like that.
I love that. To me, that is a very specific
(36:16):
and smart idea because when I watch shows that are
set in like northern Europe, I love those. I love
the Ship to set in Finland and Scotland because they're
like these heavy blue overtone you know, it's great, it's
not sunny. This show plays on this idea of the
kitchen itself as a melting pot, as a place where
(36:38):
culture comes together, and I think that's really really beautiful.
We want to play a scene though, of like when
culture comes together and then shit goes crazy, like like,
because as much as we might romanticize the idea of
a melting pot, these folks are not always getting along.
There's you know, the Latino folks, there's black folks, there's
(36:59):
you know, the white guys who are our Italian heritage,
and all of their ethnic identities are really played up
to some degree in this show. So we're going to
play a clip of Richie, the Italian cousin who was
the best friend of the guy who died, who is
just kind of like your asshole's asshole, but he's something
fundamentally endearing about this guy. And then Sydney, who is
(37:19):
this young black woman who is super well educated. She
went to Culinary Institute of the Arts, and she comes
into this kitchen and she's like, what is happening here?
Except she grew up eating that food and she thinks
it's an amazing place and she wants to help to
change it. So here's a scene from Richie and Sydney
trying to figure each other out. You know, the restaurant
could be good, like I know, you know that, Like
(37:43):
it doesn't have to be a place where the food
is shitty and where everybody acts shitty and feels shitty.
Like it could be a good legit spot. Okay, you
know what, Sydney're getting a little aggressive, and I think
maybe you should just pause and take a breath before
you start driving. Man or woman. I'm not discriminating. It's
dangerous to get behind the wheel when you're hysterical. It's
(38:04):
so interesting, I mean, I love that you picked that
clip Khalil of Richie and Sydney and like a sort
of like a crux of attensions. You know, older, younger, white, Black.
He didn't even finish a technical school. She's you know,
super well educated. Yeah, and you know those divisions in
this setting which brings them together. That certainly doesn't have
(38:26):
to be Chicago, you know, any city that has a diversity.
How can we bring people who are different together? What's
a place that can bring them together? And once they're together, shit, Like,
there's all sorts of drama that's going to unfold and slick.
Maybe you can talk about this. This isn't a lot
of ways a wider show than The South Side, of course,
but there's this way that the Kitchen is written almost
(38:47):
like a stage play, Like you could write a play
that's set in the kitchen, and because it's a workplace,
it brings all these different people together. How did you
see that in terms of like racial dynamics and letting
them play out in this setting? In many ways, when
I watched this, I was like, well, this is a
little bit of a documentary because kitchens can be extraordinarily
(39:08):
not just the kids and restaurants can be so segregated.
You might see dishwashers that might be Latine or Latin
X or Hispanic or whatever. You might see some cooks
on the line that are mostly male and uh, you
know a variety of ethnic and racisms such there aren't
(39:29):
very many women or films in the kitchen. Usually the
chef de cuisine is you know, some really fucked up
angry white dude. Uh. You know, you might come into
the whole stand and see someone of color. You might
see like, you know, I've also seen the kitchens where
it's like you got you know, black folks in the
back chopping things, but not on the floor. So like
(39:51):
it's a it's a very hierarchical, very hierarchical. It's high. Yes,
everything is at play, the hierarchy, the patriarchy. Yeah. So
in this show, I love that they're to me, they're
just a band of misfits. That's really it is, like
he returns to Misfit Island and he's trying to get
(40:12):
them ready for the Macy's Parade and they just not
you know, the Macy's Parade, right, right, But I love
that he comes back to try to implement this French brigade,
which is like a terrible idea. It's also like I
(40:33):
get the discipline of it, but it's problematic. And so
you have this, uh, this young black woman who has
gone to the CIA, so you know that she knows
how to sharpen her knives and chop it up and
make a stew And that's the Culinary Institute of America.
It's not the Central Intelligence. No, it's not. So you
(40:54):
have that, but then you also have the like she's
basically coming in, she's saying like, we can do something
better and coming in with a better business model. I
completely understand that, coming from a mother who managed and
operated family owned businesses, so I understood how I got
(41:15):
everything in this show. So it feels really really real
to me. We have a question for you, So, um,
if we can get you hired to write for season
two of The Bear, what would you do differently? I
think the show does not take for granted that the
audience is dumb and that you have to feed them
(41:36):
pardoning you know, pardon the pun, but that you have
to spoon feed them everything. And as a writer, that
makes me happy. And so if you put me on
season two as a writer, like the thing I would
do differently is like become a writer and then put
myself in the cast. And that's what I wanted to try, right,
(42:00):
I would do it like like in Rocky you know
how how Nick his coach who's like this, you know,
quintessential Irish guy turns out to be Jewish and like
you know Rocky three or for something, that's what I
would do. It turns out that all these Italian guys
are Jewish, and that's and then like it moves into
like you know, Skokie and the synagogues and they start
selling they start selling Italian beef on bagels, right, you know,
(42:23):
like a little schnitzel, and like you know, I would
like you love it? Yeah, so oh well, well, Slick,
it has been amazing to have you on the show.
You know, your career is blooming at this time. You
just close to play nineteen nineteen inspired by the poetry
of Eviewing, and I know Ben got a chance to
see the play, and so we're just super excited that
(42:46):
you took some time out to join us when some
of my best friends are today. We wish you all
the best in your continued work time as a construct,
and I'm glad I got to spend it with two
people whom I just adore. Thank you both, seriously. Yeah yeah,
And you're talking about our aligned paths, me and you
and sort of like imagining the city. I'm with you.
Let's go, let's keep on doing it. Slick is raising
(43:09):
arms and making these giant muscles, giant muscles. Let's go.
Let's fucking go, man, Khalil. I feel like I'm not
done talking about the Bear. I'm still thinking about it
in terms of Chicago. Well, that's what a great television does, right,
(43:30):
keeps the conversation going, That's what a great podcast is.
It's just a starter for conversation. But but you know,
I'm thinking about as it's Chicago aspects, you know, watching
it in this way, and I think it's different than
Southside in a lot of ways. Okay, break it down
to me. It feels like it's made by outsiders. And
there are all these sort of like literal billboards and
(43:51):
I'm using literal correctly here. There'll be these billboards here
that are like giant Chicago nests, things like lord, this
like terrible drink that people drink here, Like signposts like
remember this is Chicago, this is Chicago. This is Chicago.
Here's the l here's the lake. It's all exteriors, like
it gets a lot the Chicago things wrong, you know,
and this is like the nippicky Chicago stuff. But also
(44:13):
like I'm okay with it. And I think I'm okay
with it because because the intimacy of that, those kitchen
scenes that we talked about, which in a way could
be anywhere, but like the dynamics that happened there. Yeah,
you know, I probably don't feel the same way you
do about it. It's more outsider perspective and the way
that they use all these symbols of Chicago. And I'll
(44:34):
tell you why bring it? Why? Because yeah, because when
we worked at Hyde Park Computers, a place where we
met when we were fourteen. Yeah, fourteen years old. You
were my boss. Boom. That's right. We were in a
place although it wasn't a kitchen, it was kind of like,
what is happening on this television show? You are writing
our next paycheck right here? Hyde Park Computer is the
(44:55):
TV show, the sitcom. You had Ed the Irish Catholic John,
the Jewish guy from New Jersey. You had Jeff, the
Polish descended guy from the North Side, Abraham, the Mexican
American descended along with Jerry Man. Holy cow, you had
black guy Aaron, you had Jeff who was Chinese American
and who was from the University of Chicago. It was
this crazy stew of people. All we wanted to make
(45:18):
was the perfect computer store. We just wanted to make
the best computers are Pole. You're right, but think about it,
we had our own French brigade of making computers back then. Yeah,
and so in a way, the show actually makes me
feel more like a Chicago because, unlike what most people
think of this, you know, crazy segregated city, which it
(45:38):
is true, there are these pockets of amazingness where people
from all walks of life do live life together. They
work together, they play together, they love together. And that's
what I love about both Southside and The Bear. Yeah
you said it, and Slick said this so beautifully when
she said you need to forge relationships with communities that
these TV shows and that you can make the universal
(46:00):
in the specific two things that are going to stay
with me. Oh, I love it, oh Man. Yes. And
you know, for the second season of The Bear, when
it's said in a Jewish delicatessen becomes Manny's Delhi. I
think we're gonna even develop these themes more, you know,
like when they have the matzo ball fight. I mean,
this is gonna be amazing, all right. I'll want to
look forward to that, all right, man, Love you, Love you.
(46:27):
Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of
Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me
Khalil Dubron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin. It's
produced by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is
Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our
executive producer is Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to Leita Mulad,
(46:49):
Julia Barton, Heather Faine, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Greta Khne,
and Jacob Weissberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by
fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman.
You definitely want to check out his music at his
website Avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin
(47:10):
on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can
sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To
find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you like to listen. And if you like
our show, please give us a five star rating and
a review and listen even if you don't like to
give it a five star rating and a review, and
(47:31):
please tell all of your best friends about it. Thank you,
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