May 9, 2023 • 44 mins
Zainab Salbi grew up in Iraq, where her family lived in terror of Saddam Hussein. Then she came to America -- and launched a nonprofit that has helped thousands of women around the world. In this episode, Zainab talks about her unique childhood, how she escaped an abusive marriage, and why she started an organization to help women survivors of war.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. When I think of this show, I don't imagine
talking to guests who grew up with a president visiting
their house. But that was zaneb Salabi's life in Baghdada
Rock during the early days of Saddam Hussein's presidency. That
level of familiarity with Saddam brought both privilege and danger.
(00:36):
He was a ruthless leader, capable of betraying those he
was close to. Zana, but her parents felt trapped by
their proximity to power. In our conversation, Zanab talks candidly
about how this terrifying reality even led her mother to
attempt suicide. I wanted to talk to Zanab because her
story is about starting over from the bottom. When she
(00:59):
left I Rock to live in the US, her life
of privilege fell away. Then she created a remarkable charity
to help women survivors of war. The story of herries
the nonprofit ranks as an immigrant is incredible. This has
started from the bottom, hard earned success stories from people
like us. Can you paint a picture for me of
(01:26):
what bag Dad was like when you grew up there?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I have great memories. I have beautiful memories. I'll
start with my family's garden, you know, a beautiful garden.
My mom would have me pick vegetables and fruits as
she's cooking. Great school. I you know, all my family,
as in cousins and uncles and aunts lived in the
(01:51):
same neighborhood, but not close to each other. But in
the afternoon, I would as the parents go to their siesta,
I ride my orange bike and put my collections of
race cars. I liked race cars when I was a kid,
and I would back to my to raise with them.
(02:11):
And I don't know if this gives you a picture
of it, but it's sort of how I grew up.
You know, my parents were I call them the yuppies
of that time of the city, and you know, loved
dancing and partying. And you know that dancing and partying
actually was a frequent occurrence in my home. Now, mind you,
(02:34):
as I, as I even hear myself say it, I
obviously grew up in a middle class, a primary class family,
and I do not want that reality to also assume
that everyone in Iraq grew up like this. I actually
write about it in my book. We also had a
living maid who had you know, a very different reality.
(02:56):
You know, her family lived in two mudrooms and six children,
you know, yeah, and six children, you know, So it's
you know, so not everyone had that reality. But nevertheless,
her parents came from the village and were given land
by the government for free to settle in. So, you know,
(03:18):
Iraq was at the seventies, in the seventies when I
grew up, was had already gone through so many turmoils,
but had also gone through some progress, depends on who
you're talking about in political turmoils, but some progress in
terms of women's rights and that were actually reformed nineteen
fifty eight, for example. But still there was joy. Let's
(03:44):
say it this way, there was joy in my memory
of the seventies. In the eighties, that joy transformed into fear.
That is, once a dam took over, you know, becoming
the president. That is when we also were consumed by
the Iran Iraq War, and the Bathist Party was stronger
than ever at that time. And the joy of the
(04:07):
parties and the dancing that I described in the seventies
I defined my life in the seventies was really transformed
into christs and fears and whispers.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, the Baptist Party I just wanted just for people
who aren't super familiar with the history. And that was
Saddam Hussein's party. That was the party he was head of.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yes, yeah, it was a totalitarian party, and it was
very much I grew up like a nineteen eighty four
George Orwell's description of a totalitarian country, which is how
the country transformed into the eighties into.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
That or corresponds with your reality of the eighties quite
quite nicely.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Clearly when I watched the movie and I was like, oh,
it's exactly how I grew up. The only difference is colors.
You know. The movie was very dark colors, Soviet colors
kind of thing, and I grew up in colors.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, the desert has vibrant colors. You know. So but
very much that's how I grew up in the eighties,
and that I was teenager at that time.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Your father was Saddam's personal pilot. How was that relationship
forged and what did that mean for your thinking about
his rule?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, Saddam, beyond the profession of my father who he
was his personal pilot, he was also the head of
civil aviation Iraq, Saddam chose my father and my mother
to be his friends, his social friends. They were one
of three family members who he chose to be his
social friends. But in essence they were not political people.
(05:44):
They had no political ambition. My father was a commercial pilot,
my mother was a biology teacher, and they were not
a threat to him politically. But they had access to
what he didn't have access to, which is what does
it mean to live in an upper midt class family,
you know, be exposed to Western music, Western etiquette, English language,
(06:05):
Western close, if you may so.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
He felt they had a sophistical that he lacked.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And he did like that. So then grew up in
a very tough life. He grew up in a small village.
His stepfather made him work and refused to take him
to school. He beat him up until the age of
nine when he escaped from his stepfather and to the capital.
And that was his first time to go to school
at the age of nine. Right, So for him, he
(06:31):
always you know, there was a class difference, you know,
and while he became a political figure and mobilized all
of that, he did not have access to this particular
sozooeconomic background which my family provided. And so it was
the job was just the job. The father, you know,
the pilot of the president. It was the friendship that
(06:53):
really was a prison in my family's home, because just
because you are a friend of the dictator, it didn't
mean that you are safe from his grip or his fear,
or his killing, or his torture or his punishment generally,
and so it just meant that we were closer to danger.
(07:14):
And the relationship was kept secret from me and as
a child until the day he came to our home
in a very public way that was on the national news.
And I was about eleven years old, and that's when
I realized, oh, oh, my parents are friends with a
president whose picture is in my classroom, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And did you have any feelings about him at that point?
Had you formed an idea about him?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, as a child, you don't. As a child, you
only see your parents and how they are reacting. And
so I saw my parents and you know, crying, my
mom crying hysterically throughout the eighties, my mom attempting suicide
over and over and over again. Her friends who would
(08:04):
gather in the seventies and dance and love were crying.
And so you know that you're seeing these things, You're
seeing the emotions when we are with him. You see
my parents being very polite. Our instructions was to always
smile when he smiled, to cry when he cried. But
you also see them, you know, you know when they're
(08:24):
scared of him. Is as a child in the surrounding,
and so so you grew up with that fear because
your parents are afraid, you know, and you see it
more and more and more and more and more, And
to be honest, it's I had no It's almost like
an internalized drama that only in later years of my
(08:48):
life as I settle an American and stabilize myself an American,
all of that and I start working on myself, did
I realize how this is there these moments that are
scary and traumatizing and sort of I internalize it and
did not express it until much later in life, where
I was able to process it and understand, Oh, that
(09:09):
was actually a very scary situation I was growing up in,
and a lot of it. You know. We were surrounded
by soldiers, Our homes were monitored, our bedrooms were monitored.
I no longer had friends, you know, I was not
allowed to have just regular friends, and everything about our
life was taken over by the dictator, and that's how
(09:34):
life was.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And you know, you describe your parents' relationship with him,
I mean he chose them as friends, and you sort
of describe that relationship then as sort of like in
a sense like a prison for your parents, for your
family ultimately for you and that friendship, that closeness, that
proximity you had to sit down. A lot of people
might think that made you safe, but it's ultimately what
(09:58):
you know, drove your mom to send you to the
United States a way to the United States, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I mean I my mom who would cry throughout my teenage.
I mean she says, we are living in a prison.
I can't prove to people that I'm surrounded with prison bars,
but I see the prison bars. And that was like
she would say it over and over again, you know,
And so it was literally prison because also the you know,
(10:29):
everyone in the country was afraid of us because we
are his friends. But we are afraid of him because
he killed his best friends. And of course we're afraid
of the people because they're afraid of us and think
that we are like him, but we are not, like
you know, we're not of his people either. So the
reason I called my memoir between two worlds because we
(10:51):
were stuck between two wolves. We're neither here nor there. Nevertheless,
you know, you grew up in this. You know, you
get used to it, right, I mean your fear, you're
all of that, but you you get used to it
until and you think that this is life, right until
the day where my mom asked me to accept the
marriage proposal from a guy I did not know in America.
(11:15):
And up until that time, you know, you resisted your
own ways. You know, I fell in love with a rebel,
and I thought he's I'm going to like fell in
love with a revolutionary guy, and he's going to help
me escape. And you have all these fantasies of how
you're going to escape the palace, you know, compound if
you may, and they're all like failed teenage attempts to
like rebel until my mom came and asked me to
(11:38):
accept this marriage proposal. Now, this was a very liberal family.
I was never I was always to choose whatever I
wanted to do in life. I was always outspoken. I
never like whatever. My mom told me to always be
whoever I want to be. And she was the first
person who believed that I would dedicate my life to
women's rights as I grew older. But nevertheless she was
(12:00):
asking me and begging me and crying, saying, please accept
this marriage proposal, which I ultimately did, not because I
was forced, but because my mom was crying.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And in her mind, and I imagine in your mind,
it wasn't a matter of women's rights. It was simply,
probably to her, a matter of survival. I want my
daughter to get out of your old right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
You didn't I didn't know. You know, I was nineteen
years old. There was silence. We don't talk about things
because remember our house was bugged, and so I didn't know.
And all what I was trying to do is, you know,
these are unarticulated feelings because we are living in it
and we're afraid to express it. You know, I was
afraid to say the words Saddam Hussein until he was
(12:46):
arrested and in prison. And at that time, I had
been in America for twenty years or I don't know,
something like fifteen years, and I was still afraid to
say to utter his name while I am in America
because you sort of you have like this fear that
you're like, he's always going to be there, you know,
and so it's unarticulated, but I said yes because she's
(13:09):
my mom and I didn't want her to cry. And
I told you I had tried to rebel in my
own way by falling in love with revolutionary guys who
ended up only wanting to be closer to him and
the privilege she provided. So I said yes, And this
is how I came to America. And my parents returned
after the marriage immediately and sat down invaded Kuwait within
(13:32):
a month of my arrival to the States. And it
led to me not seeing my family for nine years
and being an abusive marriage to the arranged marriage for
three months. And I escaped from him and escaped with
four hundred dollars in my pockets, two suitcase full of
designer clothes because you know, we were affluent in back
(13:55):
home and I was a new bride, but designers close
do not pay anything, right, you know, I had to
like go to the immigration office. At that time, it
was called the I S. I was just turning twenty
and Iraq was already the blacklisted, you know, it was
you know, the country to be feared, you know at
(14:15):
that time in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Right, I mean early in the nineties, Iraq goes into
Kuwait and the Persian Gulf War starts, and so there's
all this instability happening. I just want to make sure
that backdrop is solidified to people's minds.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically I leave to America June fifteenth,
nineteen ninety and August second, Iraq invades Kuwait, right, And
so a month and a half after I arrived to
the States, I escaped from my then husband, you know,
in September, and the first Gulf War starts in January
(14:50):
of that year. And all I can tell you is,
you know, so there is this backdrop, right, and Iraq
is the bad guy.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And so at that time when I tell people I'm
from Iraq, you know, and I had like this heavy
accent and all of that. And there are two kinds
of reactions I got in America. Either pople taking a
step back thinking that I am a terrorist, you know,
I'm going to kill them, or people hugging me and
saying we're really sorry for what's happening to your country.
And I got both reactions in truth, and if I
(15:21):
am to count my blessing, I would say I got
more welcome and more, you know, like when I told
you I went to the I ins and with my
return ticket as a tourist because I didn't stay long
enough in the marriage to transfer whatever my paper legally right,
And so I said, you tell me, I'm coming to
the bee's mouth basically, you know, you tell me. This
(15:42):
is my story, this is my ticket, this is my passport.
I don't know what to do, but I need to survive,
and you tell me what to do. And I left
from that office, and it was I I wish I
know the woman. I can describe it to her, I
can even paint her, but I don't know who she is,
an African American woman in the AS office. And she
(16:04):
took me and two hours later gave me a work
permit and to stay in the country and work. And
that's how I end up staying in the country. And eventually,
you know whatever, eventually I stand on my own feet
and the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
After the break, Zaynab tells us about the joy of
being able to speak freely about injustices without fear and
starting her nonprofit organization, Women for Women International, and just
a quick note. In the second part of this interview,
Zanab also talks about some of the atrocities women suffered
during war, including sexual violence. In nineteen ninety three, you
(16:56):
start Women for Women International. This was sparked mostly as
I understand by your observations of what was happening during
the Bosnian War. Explain to me when you became aware
of what was happening during the Bosnian War.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So you have this kid, imagine me, I mean the
kid from Iraq, right, who grew up knowing about injustices.
And the thing is I wasn't oblivious about the injustices
in Iraq. I just couldn't say anything about them because
you know you're in danger, endangering your family's survival if
you say anything anyway. And then it was the first
(17:34):
time I noticed another war, right, And this was in
Bossi and Hertzegobina, as you said, Fromer Yugoslavia. And there
were rape camps in that war. The women were given
numbers and when their numbers were called, they had to
go to the other room and get gang raped. There
were concentration camps, mostly of Muslim population and some Crowads
as well, some Catholics as well. What I do know
(17:58):
is that I was like a fierceness in me rose
because because this time I was living in a country
that provided me freedom of expression, right that you can
speak in here and not go to prison or get killed,
at least for me. Now, America is a lot of
(18:19):
dark history, wow and shocking way as an immigrant, right
you know.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
But yes, yes, everyone's experience of that is different. But
certainly coming from where you're coming from, which was you
can't even speak freely amongst your family and your own house,
your experience of the freedom here is like profound.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
You know, it still is, by the way, it still is.
I mean when I go and then you when I
whatever make any public commentary on anything, you know, and
I speak my truth absolutely right, and people like just
like okay. I was like, wow, the accept that I'm
just saying my truth is unbelievable. I don't get punished
(18:59):
for that, you know. So it's still like for me,
freedom is so delicious. It's like chocolate, you know, to
like every time I speak my truth. But anyway, so
you know, unlike Iraq, where I couldn't do anything about it,
in here, I could. So I demonstrated. I was twenty
two years old kid, right, So I went to demonstrations
and all of that, and frankly, after a while, I
still have that attitude. It's like, Okay, demonstrations are good,
(19:22):
but they're not helping the people in there. And I
wanted to help the people in there. And at that time,
I was newly remarried to a wonderful, wonderful man. I'm
just Atallah, and I wanted to do something about basically Bosnia,
and we were just newly new kids, just married. All
(19:42):
of our friends laughed at us, said, you know, go
get a job, buy a house, buy a car. What
are you doing creating this organization Women for Women to
help women survivors of force in countries you don't even
know about, you know, Like I didn't know anything about Bosnia.
But I just honestly, I can't tell you the passion
I had and still have, you know, And because I
(20:04):
still believe and my upbringing impacted that right in Iraq
that one we see injustice and look the other way
about and avoid it, we invariably legitimize it and allow
for the corruption of our own values. Even in Iraq.
(20:25):
I mean, I was a kid, so I can't judge myself,
you know, But you know, there are people who spoke
about the injustice and paid for their lives for that.
But they were consistent in their values right and here
while I lived in America, I had to I still
have to speak about injustices. But if I avoid doing
(20:46):
or saying something about it, then I'm legitimizing it. So
it came from that value that as like I have
to do something. I didn't have money, I didn't have
work experience, I didn't have anything, but I did have
that belief and conviction.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
And I want to ask you about that because, I mean,
you grew up in this fairly affluent especially considering some
of your compatriots in the country, sort of this affluent environment.
How was it for you to be here with essentially
nothing and none of the comforts you were used to?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I had a lot of comfort. What was day
to day like?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
But I mean, really was what was day to day like?
When you know?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I mean, there's some of it funny. You know. My
mother told me never to learn how to cook a
clean because no man should expect me to know that
just because I'm a woman. So I was like, shit,
excuse my language was like I don't know how to
cook and clean, and so I had to learn how
to cook and clean to start with. You know, I
was so convicted. I became my life, became the activist everything.
(21:49):
It was like my time to like speak up against
not only the injustices in Bosnia, about all the injustices
that I faced in the world right. And I had
Like I remember in nineteen ninety five, I was I
got an award from President Clinton for being one of
the six ye Terrans in America. I was twenty five
(22:09):
years old, kid, you know, who are doing something for Bosnia?
And I'm like, enter the White House with a hole
in my shoes, you know, a hole in my designer
shoes that I came with from Iraq, you know, but
a hole in my shoes. It didn't bother me. I
gotta tell you, it really didn't bother me. You know.
I was. I was just I was so as I said,
(22:30):
the freedom of speaking and acting and living my truth continues.
And then particularly was so exciting for me that it
didn't bother me that I didn't have money.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
But even beyond that, then you've started an organization, how
do you know where to start? Like, how do you
know where to get funds? To get money to set
the sell like, can you walk me through that first year?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And I don't know. There were no internets at that time, man,
there was nothing.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
What was the first thing, What was the first few
moves you made? Who'd you go talk?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I tell you. I called every organization on the Yellow Pages,
which I don't think they are used anymore, on every
woman's organization, asking them what they're doing for Bosnia, and
everyone said, ah, come after six months, come out over
a year or whatever, We're not doing anything. And then
one of them said, you know what, we got the
exact same call from the Unitarian Church. So since you
(23:26):
were asking about the same why don't you connect with
them and see if there's something there. So at that
time I already liked scratching my head to see what
I can do for women in Bosnia. And I already
wanted to sponsor a child in Bosnia through Save the Children,
but I said, no, I don't want to do that.
I want women, adults and give them cash. And so
I already came up with the idea, let's sponsor adult women,
(23:50):
let's transfer cash, and let's transfer letters and pictures to them.
And the Unitarian Church invited me to present to their
board of directors. I was twenty three years old. Immigrants
never had a professional job. I mean I worked as
secretary and salesperson at a Hallmark and at the limited Lever,
but not And I borrow my father's in laws briefcase
(24:15):
because I thought that would make me professional. And I
go and present to this board of directors, which were
all elderly people. When I'm here like a kid, and
I said, this is what I want to do, this
is what we need to do, but with conviction. And
they called me an hour later said we will help
(24:35):
you for a year, will help you get on your feet.
We will help your registration, give you all the support
at the beginning, and within a year you will be
on your own. And Lord and behold, that is what happened.
They gave me all the supports. You know, I'm not
sure if they gave me money. They gave very like
they We did fundraising at the church and I started
(24:58):
speaking to churches, synagogues, mosques, schools everywhere.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And your experience or no.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I was speaking about we need to do something. In Bosnia,
I started studying, you know, I went to school. I
was at school at that time because in Iraq, I
did not whatever. I left and twas third year in college,
so I had to start all over again. And I
was studying now about what's happening to women in war
and focusing on women in Bosnia. It became one of
the experts actually on the issue, and I was giving
(25:27):
lectures and I was making so many mistakes in my English,
you know, and people sat calling and saying, we want
to join you on this effort. People I did not know.
People said, okay, let's do it. Let's well, come, we'll
join you. And at that time, I was asking for
each woman to send twenty dollars a month along with
a letter and a picture to a woman's survivor of
war in Bosnia. And just people start calling and it's
(25:52):
so funny you're asking me about this, because now I'm
in the early stage of creating a new organization called
Daughters for Earth and actually, you know, to mobilize one
hundred million dollars for women let environmental efforts to protect
and restore the earth. And it's almost the same thing.
Here I am in my fifties, you know, people come
and say we want to join you as volunteers. Come
(26:15):
and they say, we'll help you and then little by
little it becomes this professional organization. But the secret sauce,
which is, I think what you're asking for is honestly
not the skill is conviction, is believing because you when
you ever u sat something, whether it's an enterprise or
whether it's a social enterprise, you go through a lot
(26:36):
of hurdles. You go through projections, you get through poverty,
you go through you know, not knowing how to make
ends meet. You go through And it's the difference between
one person's dreams and the other. Is not the dream
I would say, it's not even the skill sets. It's
definitely not the resources. It's the perseverance and the belief
that you will do that. And I think, if I
(27:00):
am to tell you what is my secret sauce is
I believe. I'm a believer in making the change I
go for Wow, I believe in Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
When we come back, we'll hear more from Zanib about
growing into a skill set and dealing with doubt when
building a highly successful nonprofit. She also gives advice on
how to lead and build a career with your heart
(27:32):
throughout those first couple of years as your people are
slowly but surely kind of like buying into your vision?
Did that ever translate to any sense of just pressure?
And like, am I actually doing the right? Is what
I'm proposing actually going to make a difference? Did you
deal with any of that early on?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Or no, it wasn't the doubt. I didn't go through
the doubt. It's so interesting you asked that the doubt
did not come in the early part of my career
at all. The doubt came in the height of it
because I was a kid when I started this, you know,
and the organization grew vertically from helping thirty three women
(28:11):
to helping half a million women, and this is just
like vertical rise, right, And you know, suddenly I'm on
the Opera Winfrey Show ten times and each time we
raise lots of money. Suddenly we are on the front
pages of many newspapers and we're raising a lot of money.
That was never a doubt. I was charging, man, I
was charging. The doubt came when this is suddenly a
(28:33):
seven hundred staff members organization with HR and management and
finance and budgets. And because I did not have these
skill sets, I was growing into them. And you know,
if I ever have a regret, would be that period,
not the early stages.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
You know what when would you say was was sort
of the height of the organization when.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
You you know, it's like, you know, suddenly this organization
was like operating at a thirty five million dollars annual budget.
And at what point people tell you should wear a suit,
you should sit in the front of the table, you
should act like this, you should hire these experts, you
should do that. And I do it. I did it
because I didn't know, right. I didn't know, honestly, And
(29:19):
then you start doubting your voice, your instinct because now
you have experts and you need to have measurements and
analysis and all of these things. And that's when I
let go of my belief in my instinct right, and
believe in my voice because I'm not the expert in this.
I don't know how to do budgets and planning, and
you know, you learn these things you're not. I did
(29:44):
not study it. I said woman's studies, right. And that's
if I have any advice to my younger self or
younger anybody right as they're growing into their career, is
you know, the experts really tell you to repeat things,
but that doesn't necessarily means it's true. And we have
shifted as a culture into so much dependency on statistics
(30:09):
and surveys and measurements and evaluation and numbers that we
tilted the other way and sat dismissing instinct, people's feelings,
people's emotional reactions, and sort of it's sort of so
that's when I.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Lost and that stuff and that stuff has a purpose,
which actually, I mean it seems to me that stuff,
especially for you, was essentially that was the engine.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's word completely completely right. I mean I remember higher,
you know, getting BCG who did a survey of now
our hundreds of thousands of supporters and they were like
renewal rates of ninety three percent over ten years, right,
but they had so many complaints about this and that
and all of these things, but they're so renewing and
and besch like, we've never seen something like that.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And consulting groups you hired consulting, consulting, consulting.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Exactly, and you know what, eventually, sort of you cut
yourself from your heart, which is the emotions, and you
become all about tactics and numbers and and calls to do,
and then the renewer rate drops the story drops right,
So I came, you know where I am right now
in my life, that we have tilted all the way
(31:21):
to the other direction as a society and as not
only I come from an experience of the nonprofit sectors,
but I would say in all sectors, and that these
numbers matters and are important, but our hearts and our
instincts and our emotions are as important as important. And
it's the same thing when we work with people in
(31:43):
different cultures and different knowledge based and different education. You know,
you go to the country, different countries, and you say,
I have a master's degree and I am an expert
on this, and you repeat what you've studied in the books,
but never dismiss the people who are living and breathing
their lives every day, because they have the heart, they
have the instinct, they have the intuition about what works
(32:05):
and what doesn't work. And if we put knowledge or
value of knowledge only on the facts and figures and
not on the instincts and emotions, we are cutting ourselves
shorts from solutions, viable solutions. And so that's if I am.
My biggest regret was doubting that part of myself and
completely outsourcing it to the experts, and my biggest finding
(32:29):
is the experts matters. But if it doesn't make sense,
it doesn't make sense. You know, follow your hearts.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Basically, this is an interesting intension. I mean, you only
have your experience. You're not an expert, as you would say,
in terms of how to grow nonprofit But how do
you think nonprofits can grow to the point that they
have EAHR departments and are bringing in millions and millions
of dollars and need to hire consulting groups to sort
of look at how the organization is being run without
(32:58):
losing that sort of purpose, that sense of purpose. Is it?
Is it possible? Or do the organizations need to be
capped that are certain you know a number of people
or just curious what you think about that.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
You know, it's an important question, and I do not
think it is being discussed in an open and honest
way at the moment in our world, especially as a
nonprofit sector. A lot of the nonprofit sector, the way
it is structured, the laws around it, the fundraising around it,
is still operating in a very dated way, dated societal
(33:34):
ways you know of having to have you know, board
members who can give you money but not necessarily reflective
of the constituents that you are working for and with.
There's a lot of issues in my opinion, the nonprofit sector,
but ultimately it boils down to and then and then
(33:54):
you know, donors. I'm sorry one more like want to
see growth, but growth is not necessarily always the mechanism
or the measure for success, right, So I don't think
it's discussed widely. It's also the cause. It takes on
our souls. I mean I you know, I left one
at home and after twenty years of running and leaving
(34:17):
the organization and at that time eighteen years as a CEO,
and then another two years in the board. But at
that time when I left it, I was there was
nothing left in me, you know, Like I went for
I became very big and it was successful, but I
paid the price. I remember one night I was staying
late in the office working and a colleague of mine
(34:40):
did not know, upsol in the office and opened the
door to leave a file and only to see me crying,
you know, to catch me crying, and she said, what's
going on? And I looked at her and I was like,
I created my monster. I created it took over my
life and so there is no room to talk about
how do we maintain our sanity and our mental health
(35:02):
and well being while working on the hardest issues of
the world, and while having limited resources to how to
manage them and how to deal with them. With the
issues that you were dealing with.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
What were what are some of the stories of the
women that you helped that you recall, because of course
you did have great successes, but of course there's this
other side to it. You're talking about your it's you know,
what were some of the women that you helped going.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Oh gosh, there's so many stories. Let me just say
it this way. They're mostly horrendously horrible stories that I
would come home and just sob for a day until,
you know, just to process what I had witness. And
they are also amazing stories of triumph of spirits. The
(35:53):
Afghan woman Yakuba, who was telling me how she got
married as a child because her father lost to a
bet and she was the payoff basically instead of the money,
and how then her husband dies when she was sixteen
years old and just had a baby and had to
(36:14):
be selling hats in the streets and one day the
Taliban saw her with the shoes and open sandal, basically
showing her toes and came off the truck and sat
whipping her. And in the middle of the whipping, she
holds the Taliban hand and she says stop it. And
there he's so shocked that she did that that he
(36:37):
actually leaves her alone. And by the time she's telling
me the story, she had already sent her child into college,
she was going back to school, and she was employing
I think forty women at that time, running a small business.
Right to a Congolese woman who practically changed my life
because you know, up until then, I was just making
it all about the woman that I was helping and
(37:00):
the poor woman in war zones, and not thinking that
I or even the money that the woman that I
was raising money from had stories. Right, It's all about
the poor woman. Until I sat down in front of
nanb to a Congolise woman and she was telling me
about how she was raped and her daughters were raped
and her house was burnt. And at one point she
looked at me and she said, I never told the
(37:20):
story but you, And I was like, well, do you
want me to keep it a secret? Because I am
a storyteller. That's how I tell the stories, raise awareness,
raise money, and bring it back to your country. And
she looked at me and she said, if I can
tell the whole world about what happened to me, I
would so other women would not have to go through
what I've gone through. But I can't tell the world.
(37:43):
You can. You go ahead and tell everyone, just not
the neighbors. And that woman changed my life because I realized,
as an educated, new class woman, I was making the
stories of women's oppression only about them. And I was like, Oh,
it's about these poor women and not me, right, or
not my daughters or whatever. And I realized, no, we
(38:04):
actually are all part of the story, and when we
do not break our silence speak our truth, we are
perpetuating our violence, or the violence against women or any
injustices for that matter. So it's what we think of
all these poor women. They are our teachers. And they
taught me almost everything I know actually about life and
how to value life and how to enjoy life.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
How do you feel you evolved personally from the time
you started the organization to the to now. You know
now you're out of it now, you know, eleven years
starting a new thing. But but how did you grow personally.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
If I started my career shouting out of the broadness
of my chest. You know, as I work on integrating
between my values and whether I am implementing them in
myself or just speaking about them. When I went through
that journey towards myself, I came out of it as
an activist. I a would say, speaking from the length
(39:04):
of my spine. I became more compassionate even with those
who I oppose, uh, and to understand understanding that change
is not easy. That if I am just lecturing people
and screaming at them, I am as much guilty of
building a wall as I am accusing them of building
a wall. That I came out of it a different
(39:27):
kind of an activist. I always say, much more, much
more realizing how we could be what we are fighting against,
and that we it takes a lot of effort and
discipline to become in true alignments with our values, and
that it is dangerous if we're not aware of how
we can become what we're fighting against. I look at
(39:47):
America right now, and a lot of the censoring that
is happening of books, for example, or of speakers in
different colleges, and at the beginning, you say, oh, it's
a conservative speaker, I don't care about her whatever. But
eventually your liberal progressive friend is censored as much as
that conservative person is. And that's when you realize, oh,
(40:10):
this is reminding me of back home. This is like,
this is the beginning of fascism when we do not
have tolerance to truly engage in discussions with views that
we do not agree with. Right And so, you know,
I wish I can embark that. I was like, you know, please,
you know, be careful, be careful that you know, the
(40:31):
freedom that this country provided the is not to be
taken for granted. And I frankly, I see a lot
of signs of it that is being chipped away, and
not only by one side, I would say, by our
own We can lose ourselves and our righteousness, you know,
and we have to be careful on how we go
about it to create valid change.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Zane, what's next for you? You've gone through this journey inward,
You've had this long, amazing career and you with this
incredible life that's kind of like a testament to the
human spirit and to our ability to adapt and survive
and drive and still love other people do it all.
What's next?
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Well, I am putting all my energy right now and
excitement and believe is like my air is in Daughters
for Earth, which is a campaign and a fund I
co founded with Jody Allen to mobilize one hundred million
dollars for women let environmental changes, particularly to restore and
(41:36):
protect the Earth and shift to our agriculture in a
kinder way to Earth. And based on the principle that
the first thing we can do to solve climate change
is actually to protect fifty percent of Earth. Like, this
is something you and I, all of us can do
as humanity, and this is doable. We don't need to
wait for technology to extract some carbon from you know,
(41:59):
the skies where we can do it now. And women
are very active in that, particularly that efforts around the world,
particularly indigenous women, and so Daughters for Earth is to
is finding them, putting resources behind them, and mobilizing women
in different communities to be part of the daughterhood and
to create change in their personal and communal lives for
(42:23):
Mother Earth.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Well, best of luck in this new endeavor.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Where they're lucky to have you, the Earth is lucky
to have you. I'm sure. You know you'll foindw some
great resources towards you know.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
I tell you if Earth was a friend, she would
have broken up with us a long time ago, for
we have not been good friends to her. But you
know there's always time to correct that.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
You know it's true. I hope we do. Lord knows,
I hope we do. Thank you so much, Dane. I
appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. It's truly wonderful speaking with you, and
appreciate your questions and your presence.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Thank you, ZANEB. Sally. What else can I say about
her other than she's a true inspiration. I've had a
lot of conversations in my life with people who are
getting degrees and want to use them to help others.
Their passion may be to serve, but they're not sure
it's actually financially viable for themselves. But Zay't have shown
(43:21):
you can choose to live a life of service without
ignoring your own needs also, but the two ideas aren't
mutually exclusive. We're going to continue highlighting stories like these,
showing the true breadth and depth of success that exists
out there. We'll be back with more next week. Start
from the Bottom is produced by David Jah, edited by
(43:44):
Keishaw Williams, Engineered by Ben Taliday, booked by Laura Morgan
with production help from Lea Rose. The show is executive
produced by Jacob Goldstein, Who's not all up in the
videos for Pushkin Industries. Our theme musics by Bentaliday and
David Jaw featuring Anthony Aggs and Savannah Joe Lack. Listen
to Start from the Bottom. Wherever you get your podcasts
(44:06):
and if you want ad free episodes available week early
sign up for Pushkin Plus. Check out Pushkin dot fm
or the Apple show page for more information. If you
like your show, please remember to share, rate, and review
us on your podcast app. I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin. When I think of this show, I don't imagine
talking to guests who grew up with a president visiting
their house. But that was zaneb Salabi's life in Baghdada
Rock during the early days of Saddam Hussein's presidency. That
level of familiarity with Saddam brought both privilege and danger.
(00:36):
He was a ruthless leader, capable of betraying those he
was close to. Zana, but her parents felt trapped by
their proximity to power. In our conversation, Zanab talks candidly
about how this terrifying reality even led her mother to
attempt suicide. I wanted to talk to Zanab because her
story is about starting over from the bottom. When she
(00:59):
left I Rock to live in the US, her life
of privilege fell away. Then she created a remarkable charity
to help women survivors of war. The story of herries
the nonprofit ranks as an immigrant is incredible. This has
started from the bottom, hard earned success stories from people
like us. Can you paint a picture for me of
(01:26):
what bag Dad was like when you grew up there?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Well, I have great memories. I have beautiful memories. I'll
start with my family's garden, you know, a beautiful garden.
My mom would have me pick vegetables and fruits as
she's cooking. Great school. I you know, all my family,
as in cousins and uncles and aunts lived in the
(01:51):
same neighborhood, but not close to each other. But in
the afternoon, I would as the parents go to their siesta,
I ride my orange bike and put my collections of
race cars. I liked race cars when I was a kid,
and I would back to my to raise with them.
(02:11):
And I don't know if this gives you a picture
of it, but it's sort of how I grew up.
You know, my parents were I call them the yuppies
of that time of the city, and you know, loved
dancing and partying. And you know that dancing and partying
actually was a frequent occurrence in my home. Now, mind you,
(02:34):
as I, as I even hear myself say it, I
obviously grew up in a middle class, a primary class family,
and I do not want that reality to also assume
that everyone in Iraq grew up like this. I actually
write about it in my book. We also had a
living maid who had you know, a very different reality.
(02:56):
You know, her family lived in two mudrooms and six children,
you know, yeah, and six children, you know, So it's
you know, so not everyone had that reality. But nevertheless,
her parents came from the village and were given land
by the government for free to settle in. So, you know,
(03:18):
Iraq was at the seventies, in the seventies when I
grew up, was had already gone through so many turmoils,
but had also gone through some progress, depends on who
you're talking about in political turmoils, but some progress in
terms of women's rights and that were actually reformed nineteen
fifty eight, for example. But still there was joy. Let's
(03:44):
say it this way, there was joy in my memory
of the seventies. In the eighties, that joy transformed into fear.
That is, once a dam took over, you know, becoming
the president. That is when we also were consumed by
the Iran Iraq War, and the Bathist Party was stronger
than ever at that time. And the joy of the
(04:07):
parties and the dancing that I described in the seventies
I defined my life in the seventies was really transformed
into christs and fears and whispers.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, the Baptist Party I just wanted just for people
who aren't super familiar with the history. And that was
Saddam Hussein's party. That was the party he was head of.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yes, yeah, it was a totalitarian party, and it was
very much I grew up like a nineteen eighty four
George Orwell's description of a totalitarian country, which is how
the country transformed into the eighties into.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
That or corresponds with your reality of the eighties quite
quite nicely.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Clearly when I watched the movie and I was like, oh,
it's exactly how I grew up. The only difference is colors.
You know. The movie was very dark colors, Soviet colors
kind of thing, and I grew up in colors.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yeah, the desert has vibrant colors. You know. So but
very much that's how I grew up in the eighties,
and that I was teenager at that time.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Your father was Saddam's personal pilot. How was that relationship
forged and what did that mean for your thinking about
his rule?
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Well, Saddam, beyond the profession of my father who he
was his personal pilot, he was also the head of
civil aviation Iraq, Saddam chose my father and my mother
to be his friends, his social friends. They were one
of three family members who he chose to be his
social friends. But in essence they were not political people.
(05:44):
They had no political ambition. My father was a commercial pilot,
my mother was a biology teacher, and they were not
a threat to him politically. But they had access to
what he didn't have access to, which is what does
it mean to live in an upper midt class family,
you know, be exposed to Western music, Western etiquette, English language,
(06:05):
Western close, if you may so.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
He felt they had a sophistical that he lacked.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
And he did like that. So then grew up in
a very tough life. He grew up in a small village.
His stepfather made him work and refused to take him
to school. He beat him up until the age of
nine when he escaped from his stepfather and to the capital.
And that was his first time to go to school
at the age of nine. Right, So for him, he
(06:31):
always you know, there was a class difference, you know,
and while he became a political figure and mobilized all
of that, he did not have access to this particular
sozooeconomic background which my family provided. And so it was
the job was just the job. The father, you know,
the pilot of the president. It was the friendship that
(06:53):
really was a prison in my family's home, because just
because you are a friend of the dictator, it didn't
mean that you are safe from his grip or his fear,
or his killing, or his torture or his punishment generally,
and so it just meant that we were closer to danger.
(07:14):
And the relationship was kept secret from me and as
a child until the day he came to our home
in a very public way that was on the national news.
And I was about eleven years old, and that's when
I realized, oh, oh, my parents are friends with a
president whose picture is in my classroom, you know.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
And did you have any feelings about him at that point?
Had you formed an idea about him?
Speaker 2 (07:42):
No, as a child, you don't. As a child, you
only see your parents and how they are reacting. And
so I saw my parents and you know, crying, my
mom crying hysterically throughout the eighties, my mom attempting suicide
over and over and over again. Her friends who would
(08:04):
gather in the seventies and dance and love were crying.
And so you know that you're seeing these things, You're
seeing the emotions when we are with him. You see
my parents being very polite. Our instructions was to always
smile when he smiled, to cry when he cried. But
you also see them, you know, you know when they're
(08:24):
scared of him. Is as a child in the surrounding,
and so so you grew up with that fear because
your parents are afraid, you know, and you see it
more and more and more and more and more, And
to be honest, it's I had no It's almost like
an internalized drama that only in later years of my
(08:48):
life as I settle an American and stabilize myself an American,
all of that and I start working on myself, did
I realize how this is there these moments that are
scary and traumatizing and sort of I internalize it and
did not express it until much later in life, where
I was able to process it and understand, Oh, that
(09:09):
was actually a very scary situation I was growing up in,
and a lot of it. You know. We were surrounded
by soldiers, Our homes were monitored, our bedrooms were monitored.
I no longer had friends, you know, I was not
allowed to have just regular friends, and everything about our
life was taken over by the dictator, and that's how
(09:34):
life was.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And you know, you describe your parents' relationship with him,
I mean he chose them as friends, and you sort
of describe that relationship then as sort of like in
a sense like a prison for your parents, for your
family ultimately for you and that friendship, that closeness, that
proximity you had to sit down. A lot of people
might think that made you safe, but it's ultimately what
(09:58):
you know, drove your mom to send you to the
United States a way to the United States, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I mean I my mom who would cry throughout my teenage.
I mean she says, we are living in a prison.
I can't prove to people that I'm surrounded with prison bars,
but I see the prison bars. And that was like
she would say it over and over again, you know,
And so it was literally prison because also the you know,
(10:29):
everyone in the country was afraid of us because we
are his friends. But we are afraid of him because
he killed his best friends. And of course we're afraid
of the people because they're afraid of us and think
that we are like him, but we are not, like
you know, we're not of his people either. So the
reason I called my memoir between two worlds because we
(10:51):
were stuck between two wolves. We're neither here nor there. Nevertheless,
you know, you grew up in this. You know, you
get used to it, right, I mean your fear, you're
all of that, but you you get used to it
until and you think that this is life, right until
the day where my mom asked me to accept the
marriage proposal from a guy I did not know in America.
(11:15):
And up until that time, you know, you resisted your
own ways. You know, I fell in love with a rebel,
and I thought he's I'm going to like fell in
love with a revolutionary guy, and he's going to help
me escape. And you have all these fantasies of how
you're going to escape the palace, you know, compound if
you may, and they're all like failed teenage attempts to
like rebel until my mom came and asked me to
(11:38):
accept this marriage proposal. Now, this was a very liberal family.
I was never I was always to choose whatever I
wanted to do in life. I was always outspoken. I
never like whatever. My mom told me to always be
whoever I want to be. And she was the first
person who believed that I would dedicate my life to
women's rights as I grew older. But nevertheless she was
(12:00):
asking me and begging me and crying, saying, please accept
this marriage proposal, which I ultimately did, not because I
was forced, but because my mom was crying.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
And in her mind, and I imagine in your mind,
it wasn't a matter of women's rights. It was simply,
probably to her, a matter of survival. I want my
daughter to get out of your old right.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
You didn't I didn't know. You know, I was nineteen
years old. There was silence. We don't talk about things
because remember our house was bugged, and so I didn't know.
And all what I was trying to do is, you know,
these are unarticulated feelings because we are living in it
and we're afraid to express it. You know, I was
afraid to say the words Saddam Hussein until he was
(12:46):
arrested and in prison. And at that time, I had
been in America for twenty years or I don't know,
something like fifteen years, and I was still afraid to
say to utter his name while I am in America
because you sort of you have like this fear that
you're like, he's always going to be there, you know,
and so it's unarticulated, but I said yes because she's
(13:09):
my mom and I didn't want her to cry. And
I told you I had tried to rebel in my
own way by falling in love with revolutionary guys who
ended up only wanting to be closer to him and
the privilege she provided. So I said yes, And this
is how I came to America. And my parents returned
after the marriage immediately and sat down invaded Kuwait within
(13:32):
a month of my arrival to the States. And it
led to me not seeing my family for nine years
and being an abusive marriage to the arranged marriage for
three months. And I escaped from him and escaped with
four hundred dollars in my pockets, two suitcase full of
designer clothes because you know, we were affluent in back
(13:55):
home and I was a new bride, but designers close
do not pay anything, right, you know, I had to
like go to the immigration office. At that time, it
was called the I S. I was just turning twenty
and Iraq was already the blacklisted, you know, it was
you know, the country to be feared, you know at
(14:15):
that time in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Right, I mean early in the nineties, Iraq goes into
Kuwait and the Persian Gulf War starts, and so there's
all this instability happening. I just want to make sure
that backdrop is solidified to people's minds.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And basically I leave to America June fifteenth,
nineteen ninety and August second, Iraq invades Kuwait, right, And
so a month and a half after I arrived to
the States, I escaped from my then husband, you know,
in September, and the first Gulf War starts in January
(14:50):
of that year. And all I can tell you is,
you know, so there is this backdrop, right, and Iraq
is the bad guy.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
And so at that time when I tell people I'm
from Iraq, you know, and I had like this heavy
accent and all of that. And there are two kinds
of reactions I got in America. Either pople taking a
step back thinking that I am a terrorist, you know,
I'm going to kill them, or people hugging me and
saying we're really sorry for what's happening to your country.
And I got both reactions in truth, and if I
(15:21):
am to count my blessing, I would say I got
more welcome and more, you know, like when I told
you I went to the I ins and with my
return ticket as a tourist because I didn't stay long
enough in the marriage to transfer whatever my paper legally right,
And so I said, you tell me, I'm coming to
the bee's mouth basically, you know, you tell me. This
(15:42):
is my story, this is my ticket, this is my passport.
I don't know what to do, but I need to survive,
and you tell me what to do. And I left
from that office, and it was I I wish I
know the woman. I can describe it to her, I
can even paint her, but I don't know who she is,
an African American woman in the AS office. And she
(16:04):
took me and two hours later gave me a work
permit and to stay in the country and work. And
that's how I end up staying in the country. And eventually,
you know whatever, eventually I stand on my own feet
and the rest is history.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
After the break, Zaynab tells us about the joy of
being able to speak freely about injustices without fear and
starting her nonprofit organization, Women for Women International, and just
a quick note. In the second part of this interview,
Zanab also talks about some of the atrocities women suffered
during war, including sexual violence. In nineteen ninety three, you
(16:56):
start Women for Women International. This was sparked mostly as
I understand by your observations of what was happening during
the Bosnian War. Explain to me when you became aware
of what was happening during the Bosnian War.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
So you have this kid, imagine me, I mean the
kid from Iraq, right, who grew up knowing about injustices.
And the thing is I wasn't oblivious about the injustices
in Iraq. I just couldn't say anything about them because
you know you're in danger, endangering your family's survival if
you say anything anyway. And then it was the first
(17:34):
time I noticed another war, right, And this was in
Bossi and Hertzegobina, as you said, Fromer Yugoslavia. And there
were rape camps in that war. The women were given
numbers and when their numbers were called, they had to
go to the other room and get gang raped. There
were concentration camps, mostly of Muslim population and some Crowads
as well, some Catholics as well. What I do know
(17:58):
is that I was like a fierceness in me rose
because because this time I was living in a country
that provided me freedom of expression, right that you can
speak in here and not go to prison or get killed,
at least for me. Now, America is a lot of
(18:19):
dark history, wow and shocking way as an immigrant, right
you know.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
But yes, yes, everyone's experience of that is different. But
certainly coming from where you're coming from, which was you
can't even speak freely amongst your family and your own house,
your experience of the freedom here is like profound.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
You know, it still is, by the way, it still is.
I mean when I go and then you when I
whatever make any public commentary on anything, you know, and
I speak my truth absolutely right, and people like just
like okay. I was like, wow, the accept that I'm
just saying my truth is unbelievable. I don't get punished
(18:59):
for that, you know. So it's still like for me,
freedom is so delicious. It's like chocolate, you know, to
like every time I speak my truth. But anyway, so
you know, unlike Iraq, where I couldn't do anything about it,
in here, I could. So I demonstrated. I was twenty
two years old kid, right, So I went to demonstrations
and all of that, and frankly, after a while, I
still have that attitude. It's like, Okay, demonstrations are good,
(19:22):
but they're not helping the people in there. And I
wanted to help the people in there. And at that time,
I was newly remarried to a wonderful, wonderful man. I'm
just Atallah, and I wanted to do something about basically Bosnia,
and we were just newly new kids, just married. All
(19:42):
of our friends laughed at us, said, you know, go
get a job, buy a house, buy a car. What
are you doing creating this organization Women for Women to
help women survivors of force in countries you don't even
know about, you know, Like I didn't know anything about Bosnia.
But I just honestly, I can't tell you the passion
I had and still have, you know, And because I
(20:04):
still believe and my upbringing impacted that right in Iraq
that one we see injustice and look the other way
about and avoid it, we invariably legitimize it and allow
for the corruption of our own values. Even in Iraq.
(20:25):
I mean, I was a kid, so I can't judge myself,
you know, But you know, there are people who spoke
about the injustice and paid for their lives for that.
But they were consistent in their values right and here
while I lived in America, I had to I still
have to speak about injustices. But if I avoid doing
(20:46):
or saying something about it, then I'm legitimizing it. So
it came from that value that as like I have
to do something. I didn't have money, I didn't have
work experience, I didn't have anything, but I did have
that belief and conviction.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
And I want to ask you about that because, I mean,
you grew up in this fairly affluent especially considering some
of your compatriots in the country, sort of this affluent environment.
How was it for you to be here with essentially
nothing and none of the comforts you were used to?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, I had a lot of comfort. What was day
to day like?
Speaker 1 (21:18):
But I mean, really was what was day to day like?
When you know?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I mean, there's some of it funny. You know. My
mother told me never to learn how to cook a
clean because no man should expect me to know that
just because I'm a woman. So I was like, shit,
excuse my language was like I don't know how to
cook and clean, and so I had to learn how
to cook and clean to start with. You know, I
was so convicted. I became my life, became the activist everything.
(21:49):
It was like my time to like speak up against
not only the injustices in Bosnia, about all the injustices
that I faced in the world right. And I had
Like I remember in nineteen ninety five, I was I
got an award from President Clinton for being one of
the six ye Terrans in America. I was twenty five
(22:09):
years old, kid, you know, who are doing something for Bosnia?
And I'm like, enter the White House with a hole
in my shoes, you know, a hole in my designer
shoes that I came with from Iraq, you know, but
a hole in my shoes. It didn't bother me. I
gotta tell you, it really didn't bother me. You know.
I was. I was just I was so as I said,
(22:30):
the freedom of speaking and acting and living my truth continues.
And then particularly was so exciting for me that it
didn't bother me that I didn't have money.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
But even beyond that, then you've started an organization, how
do you know where to start? Like, how do you
know where to get funds? To get money to set
the sell like, can you walk me through that first year?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
And I don't know. There were no internets at that time, man,
there was nothing.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
What was the first thing, What was the first few
moves you made? Who'd you go talk?
Speaker 2 (23:03):
I tell you. I called every organization on the Yellow Pages,
which I don't think they are used anymore, on every
woman's organization, asking them what they're doing for Bosnia, and
everyone said, ah, come after six months, come out over
a year or whatever, We're not doing anything. And then
one of them said, you know what, we got the
exact same call from the Unitarian Church. So since you
(23:26):
were asking about the same why don't you connect with
them and see if there's something there. So at that
time I already liked scratching my head to see what
I can do for women in Bosnia. And I already
wanted to sponsor a child in Bosnia through Save the Children,
but I said, no, I don't want to do that.
I want women, adults and give them cash. And so
I already came up with the idea, let's sponsor adult women,
(23:50):
let's transfer cash, and let's transfer letters and pictures to them.
And the Unitarian Church invited me to present to their
board of directors. I was twenty three years old. Immigrants
never had a professional job. I mean I worked as
secretary and salesperson at a Hallmark and at the limited Lever,
but not And I borrow my father's in laws briefcase
(24:15):
because I thought that would make me professional. And I
go and present to this board of directors, which were
all elderly people. When I'm here like a kid, and
I said, this is what I want to do, this
is what we need to do, but with conviction. And
they called me an hour later said we will help
(24:35):
you for a year, will help you get on your feet.
We will help your registration, give you all the support
at the beginning, and within a year you will be
on your own. And Lord and behold, that is what happened.
They gave me all the supports. You know, I'm not
sure if they gave me money. They gave very like
they We did fundraising at the church and I started
(24:58):
speaking to churches, synagogues, mosques, schools everywhere.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And your experience or no.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
I was speaking about we need to do something. In Bosnia,
I started studying, you know, I went to school. I
was at school at that time because in Iraq, I
did not whatever. I left and twas third year in college,
so I had to start all over again. And I
was studying now about what's happening to women in war
and focusing on women in Bosnia. It became one of
the experts actually on the issue, and I was giving
(25:27):
lectures and I was making so many mistakes in my English,
you know, and people sat calling and saying, we want
to join you on this effort. People I did not know.
People said, okay, let's do it. Let's well, come, we'll
join you. And at that time, I was asking for
each woman to send twenty dollars a month along with
a letter and a picture to a woman's survivor of
war in Bosnia. And just people start calling and it's
(25:52):
so funny you're asking me about this, because now I'm
in the early stage of creating a new organization called
Daughters for Earth and actually, you know, to mobilize one
hundred million dollars for women let environmental efforts to protect
and restore the earth. And it's almost the same thing.
Here I am in my fifties, you know, people come
and say we want to join you as volunteers. Come
(26:15):
and they say, we'll help you and then little by
little it becomes this professional organization. But the secret sauce,
which is, I think what you're asking for is honestly
not the skill is conviction, is believing because you when
you ever u sat something, whether it's an enterprise or
whether it's a social enterprise, you go through a lot
(26:36):
of hurdles. You go through projections, you get through poverty,
you go through you know, not knowing how to make
ends meet. You go through And it's the difference between
one person's dreams and the other. Is not the dream
I would say, it's not even the skill sets. It's
definitely not the resources. It's the perseverance and the belief
that you will do that. And I think, if I
(27:00):
am to tell you what is my secret sauce is
I believe. I'm a believer in making the change I
go for Wow, I believe in Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
When we come back, we'll hear more from Zanib about
growing into a skill set and dealing with doubt when
building a highly successful nonprofit. She also gives advice on
how to lead and build a career with your heart
(27:32):
throughout those first couple of years as your people are
slowly but surely kind of like buying into your vision?
Did that ever translate to any sense of just pressure?
And like, am I actually doing the right? Is what
I'm proposing actually going to make a difference? Did you
deal with any of that early on?
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Or no, it wasn't the doubt. I didn't go through
the doubt. It's so interesting you asked that the doubt
did not come in the early part of my career
at all. The doubt came in the height of it
because I was a kid when I started this, you know,
and the organization grew vertically from helping thirty three women
(28:11):
to helping half a million women, and this is just
like vertical rise, right, And you know, suddenly I'm on
the Opera Winfrey Show ten times and each time we
raise lots of money. Suddenly we are on the front
pages of many newspapers and we're raising a lot of money.
That was never a doubt. I was charging, man, I
was charging. The doubt came when this is suddenly a
(28:33):
seven hundred staff members organization with HR and management and
finance and budgets. And because I did not have these
skill sets, I was growing into them. And you know,
if I ever have a regret, would be that period,
not the early stages.
Speaker 1 (28:53):
You know what when would you say was was sort
of the height of the organization when.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
You you know, it's like, you know, suddenly this organization
was like operating at a thirty five million dollars annual budget.
And at what point people tell you should wear a suit,
you should sit in the front of the table, you
should act like this, you should hire these experts, you
should do that. And I do it. I did it
because I didn't know, right. I didn't know, honestly, And
(29:19):
then you start doubting your voice, your instinct because now
you have experts and you need to have measurements and
analysis and all of these things. And that's when I
let go of my belief in my instinct right, and
believe in my voice because I'm not the expert in this.
I don't know how to do budgets and planning, and
you know, you learn these things you're not. I did
(29:44):
not study it. I said woman's studies, right. And that's
if I have any advice to my younger self or
younger anybody right as they're growing into their career, is
you know, the experts really tell you to repeat things,
but that doesn't necessarily means it's true. And we have
shifted as a culture into so much dependency on statistics
(30:09):
and surveys and measurements and evaluation and numbers that we
tilted the other way and sat dismissing instinct, people's feelings,
people's emotional reactions, and sort of it's sort of so
that's when I.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Lost and that stuff and that stuff has a purpose,
which actually, I mean it seems to me that stuff,
especially for you, was essentially that was the engine.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's word completely completely right. I mean I remember higher,
you know, getting BCG who did a survey of now
our hundreds of thousands of supporters and they were like
renewal rates of ninety three percent over ten years, right,
but they had so many complaints about this and that
and all of these things, but they're so renewing and
and besch like, we've never seen something like that.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
And consulting groups you hired consulting, consulting, consulting.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
Exactly, and you know what, eventually, sort of you cut
yourself from your heart, which is the emotions, and you
become all about tactics and numbers and and calls to do,
and then the renewer rate drops the story drops right,
So I came, you know where I am right now
in my life, that we have tilted all the way
(31:21):
to the other direction as a society and as not
only I come from an experience of the nonprofit sectors,
but I would say in all sectors, and that these
numbers matters and are important, but our hearts and our
instincts and our emotions are as important as important. And
it's the same thing when we work with people in
(31:43):
different cultures and different knowledge based and different education. You know,
you go to the country, different countries, and you say,
I have a master's degree and I am an expert
on this, and you repeat what you've studied in the books,
but never dismiss the people who are living and breathing
their lives every day, because they have the heart, they
have the instinct, they have the intuition about what works
(32:05):
and what doesn't work. And if we put knowledge or
value of knowledge only on the facts and figures and
not on the instincts and emotions, we are cutting ourselves
shorts from solutions, viable solutions. And so that's if I am.
My biggest regret was doubting that part of myself and
completely outsourcing it to the experts, and my biggest finding
(32:29):
is the experts matters. But if it doesn't make sense,
it doesn't make sense. You know, follow your hearts.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Basically, this is an interesting intension. I mean, you only
have your experience. You're not an expert, as you would say,
in terms of how to grow nonprofit But how do
you think nonprofits can grow to the point that they
have EAHR departments and are bringing in millions and millions
of dollars and need to hire consulting groups to sort
of look at how the organization is being run without
(32:58):
losing that sort of purpose, that sense of purpose. Is it?
Is it possible? Or do the organizations need to be
capped that are certain you know a number of people
or just curious what you think about that.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
You know, it's an important question, and I do not
think it is being discussed in an open and honest
way at the moment in our world, especially as a
nonprofit sector. A lot of the nonprofit sector, the way
it is structured, the laws around it, the fundraising around it,
is still operating in a very dated way, dated societal
(33:34):
ways you know of having to have you know, board
members who can give you money but not necessarily reflective
of the constituents that you are working for and with.
There's a lot of issues in my opinion, the nonprofit sector,
but ultimately it boils down to and then and then
(33:54):
you know, donors. I'm sorry one more like want to
see growth, but growth is not necessarily always the mechanism
or the measure for success, right, So I don't think
it's discussed widely. It's also the cause. It takes on
our souls. I mean I you know, I left one
at home and after twenty years of running and leaving
(34:17):
the organization and at that time eighteen years as a CEO,
and then another two years in the board. But at
that time when I left it, I was there was
nothing left in me, you know, Like I went for
I became very big and it was successful, but I
paid the price. I remember one night I was staying
late in the office working and a colleague of mine
(34:40):
did not know, upsol in the office and opened the
door to leave a file and only to see me crying,
you know, to catch me crying, and she said, what's
going on? And I looked at her and I was like,
I created my monster. I created it took over my
life and so there is no room to talk about
how do we maintain our sanity and our mental health
(35:02):
and well being while working on the hardest issues of
the world, and while having limited resources to how to
manage them and how to deal with them. With the
issues that you were dealing with.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
What were what are some of the stories of the
women that you helped that you recall, because of course
you did have great successes, but of course there's this
other side to it. You're talking about your it's you know,
what were some of the women that you helped going.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Oh gosh, there's so many stories. Let me just say
it this way. They're mostly horrendously horrible stories that I
would come home and just sob for a day until,
you know, just to process what I had witness. And
they are also amazing stories of triumph of spirits. The
(35:53):
Afghan woman Yakuba, who was telling me how she got
married as a child because her father lost to a
bet and she was the payoff basically instead of the money,
and how then her husband dies when she was sixteen
years old and just had a baby and had to
(36:14):
be selling hats in the streets and one day the
Taliban saw her with the shoes and open sandal, basically
showing her toes and came off the truck and sat
whipping her. And in the middle of the whipping, she
holds the Taliban hand and she says stop it. And
there he's so shocked that she did that that he
(36:37):
actually leaves her alone. And by the time she's telling
me the story, she had already sent her child into college,
she was going back to school, and she was employing
I think forty women at that time, running a small business.
Right to a Congolese woman who practically changed my life
because you know, up until then, I was just making
it all about the woman that I was helping and
(37:00):
the poor woman in war zones, and not thinking that
I or even the money that the woman that I
was raising money from had stories. Right, It's all about
the poor woman. Until I sat down in front of
nanb to a Congolise woman and she was telling me
about how she was raped and her daughters were raped
and her house was burnt. And at one point she
looked at me and she said, I never told the
(37:20):
story but you, And I was like, well, do you
want me to keep it a secret? Because I am
a storyteller. That's how I tell the stories, raise awareness,
raise money, and bring it back to your country. And
she looked at me and she said, if I can
tell the whole world about what happened to me, I
would so other women would not have to go through
what I've gone through. But I can't tell the world.
(37:43):
You can. You go ahead and tell everyone, just not
the neighbors. And that woman changed my life because I realized,
as an educated, new class woman, I was making the
stories of women's oppression only about them. And I was like, Oh,
it's about these poor women and not me, right, or
not my daughters or whatever. And I realized, no, we
(38:04):
actually are all part of the story, and when we
do not break our silence speak our truth, we are
perpetuating our violence, or the violence against women or any
injustices for that matter. So it's what we think of
all these poor women. They are our teachers. And they
taught me almost everything I know actually about life and
how to value life and how to enjoy life.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
How do you feel you evolved personally from the time
you started the organization to the to now. You know
now you're out of it now, you know, eleven years
starting a new thing. But but how did you grow personally.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
If I started my career shouting out of the broadness
of my chest. You know, as I work on integrating
between my values and whether I am implementing them in
myself or just speaking about them. When I went through
that journey towards myself, I came out of it as
an activist. I a would say, speaking from the length
(39:04):
of my spine. I became more compassionate even with those
who I oppose, uh, and to understand understanding that change
is not easy. That if I am just lecturing people
and screaming at them, I am as much guilty of
building a wall as I am accusing them of building
a wall. That I came out of it a different
(39:27):
kind of an activist. I always say, much more, much
more realizing how we could be what we are fighting against,
and that we it takes a lot of effort and
discipline to become in true alignments with our values, and
that it is dangerous if we're not aware of how
we can become what we're fighting against. I look at
(39:47):
America right now, and a lot of the censoring that
is happening of books, for example, or of speakers in
different colleges, and at the beginning, you say, oh, it's
a conservative speaker, I don't care about her whatever. But
eventually your liberal progressive friend is censored as much as
that conservative person is. And that's when you realize, oh,
(40:10):
this is reminding me of back home. This is like,
this is the beginning of fascism when we do not
have tolerance to truly engage in discussions with views that
we do not agree with. Right And so, you know,
I wish I can embark that. I was like, you know, please,
you know, be careful, be careful that you know, the
(40:31):
freedom that this country provided the is not to be
taken for granted. And I frankly, I see a lot
of signs of it that is being chipped away, and
not only by one side, I would say, by our
own We can lose ourselves and our righteousness, you know,
and we have to be careful on how we go
about it to create valid change.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Zane, what's next for you? You've gone through this journey inward,
You've had this long, amazing career and you with this
incredible life that's kind of like a testament to the
human spirit and to our ability to adapt and survive
and drive and still love other people do it all.
What's next?
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Well, I am putting all my energy right now and
excitement and believe is like my air is in Daughters
for Earth, which is a campaign and a fund I
co founded with Jody Allen to mobilize one hundred million
dollars for women let environmental changes, particularly to restore and
(41:36):
protect the Earth and shift to our agriculture in a
kinder way to Earth. And based on the principle that
the first thing we can do to solve climate change
is actually to protect fifty percent of Earth. Like, this
is something you and I, all of us can do
as humanity, and this is doable. We don't need to
wait for technology to extract some carbon from you know,
(41:59):
the skies where we can do it now. And women
are very active in that, particularly that efforts around the world,
particularly indigenous women, and so Daughters for Earth is to
is finding them, putting resources behind them, and mobilizing women
in different communities to be part of the daughterhood and
to create change in their personal and communal lives for
(42:23):
Mother Earth.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
Well, best of luck in this new endeavor.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:29):
Where they're lucky to have you, the Earth is lucky
to have you. I'm sure. You know you'll foindw some
great resources towards you know.
Speaker 2 (42:36):
I tell you if Earth was a friend, she would
have broken up with us a long time ago, for
we have not been good friends to her. But you
know there's always time to correct that.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
You know it's true. I hope we do. Lord knows,
I hope we do. Thank you so much, Dane. I
appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Pleasure, pleasure, pleasure. It's truly wonderful speaking with you, and
appreciate your questions and your presence.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Thank you, ZANEB. Sally. What else can I say about
her other than she's a true inspiration. I've had a
lot of conversations in my life with people who are
getting degrees and want to use them to help others.
Their passion may be to serve, but they're not sure
it's actually financially viable for themselves. But Zay't have shown
(43:21):
you can choose to live a life of service without
ignoring your own needs also, but the two ideas aren't
mutually exclusive. We're going to continue highlighting stories like these,
showing the true breadth and depth of success that exists
out there. We'll be back with more next week. Start
from the Bottom is produced by David Jah, edited by
(43:44):
Keishaw Williams, Engineered by Ben Taliday, booked by Laura Morgan
with production help from Lea Rose. The show is executive
produced by Jacob Goldstein, Who's not all up in the
videos for Pushkin Industries. Our theme musics by Bentaliday and
David Jaw featuring Anthony Aggs and Savannah Joe Lack. Listen
to Start from the Bottom. Wherever you get your podcasts
(44:06):
and if you want ad free episodes available week early
sign up for Pushkin Plus. Check out Pushkin dot fm
or the Apple show page for more information. If you
like your show, please remember to share, rate, and review
us on your podcast app. I'm justin Richmond.
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