April 4, 2025 • 37 mins
Dr Laurie was invited by her pal Gretchen Rubin to appear on a special edition of the More Happier podcast to examine friendship.
The two old friends were joined in their discussion by a new friend, Reshma Saujani (founder of Girls Who Code and Moms First and host of the podcast My So-Called Midlife).
The trio talked about how our friendships change over time, how to handle conflict, and how to make new friends in adulthood.
Listen to Gretchen's show Happier with Gretchen Rubin and More Happier - and Reshma's My So-Called Midlife - wherever you get your podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, today you're in for a
treat because my friend, best selling author and happiness expert,
Gretchen Rubin just had me join her for a special
episode of her podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. In this episode,
Gretchen and I took part in her first ever friendship roundtable,
(00:37):
and we were joined by the amazing Rushma Sajani, founder
of Girls Who Code and host of the My so
called midlife podcast. Gretchen Rushman and I talked about our friendships,
how they've changed over time, how we try to handle conflict,
and how we've made friends in adulthood. I enjoyed our
conversation a lot, and I bet you will too.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life.
It is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to
go deeper, and three of us are here today to
talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness,
human nature, and friendship, and I am the host of
the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. And also here today
(01:26):
is Lorie Santos. Lauri is a professor at Yale University,
where she has taught the most popular course in Yale History,
Psychology and the Good Life, and she's also host of
the Happiness Lab podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners
improve their well being with the science of happiness.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Hello, Laurie, Hey, Gretchen, Thanks so much for having me
on the show. This roundtable is fun, and we'll build
our own friendship.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
We'll build our friendship. There we go, and we are
also here with Reshma Sojohnny Reshman is the founder of
successful nonprofits Girls Who Code and Moms First, and the
best selling author of books including Pay Up, Brave, Not Perfect,
and the Girls Who Code book series. She is host
of the terrific podcast My So Called Midlife, where she
(02:12):
tackles the question She's gotten everything she's ever wanted, so
why does she feel so unsatisfied? Hello, Rashna, Hi Kretschen.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
This is going to be such a fun conversation. Okay, So, friendship.
Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a
key element to a happy life, and friendship is certainly
an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been
going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm
rebranding is the open door phase of life. And one
(02:43):
thing that I noticed is how sometimes in this stage
people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances, like
they thought they had friends, but they really just have
friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more
about friendship, I could see that people were really fired
up about this subject. People really understand how important it is.
(03:03):
And we're recording this in women's history months. And while
friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is some
kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so
excited to talk to you both about friendship.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yes, yeah, this is gonna be awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Excellent, So let's talk about friendship in your own life.
Have there been any special steps that you have taken
in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or
to create new friendships? I mean, because what does it
make new friends but keep the old one is silver,
the others gold? What have you done in your own
life towards this aim, Laurie, I'll let me ask you first.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited
to have this conversation is I feel like this is
something I've been thinking about a lot, right. You know,
I went through this period of feeling super burned out,
and one of the things I recognized during that period
was that like I hadn't been investing enough time in
my friendships. I too felt like I had a lot
of these like so called relational friendships where it's like,
you know, maybe I would see somebody at work, or
(03:58):
we were just kind of friends because we happened, you know,
my husband happened to know his partner or something like that.
And like it was I was finding that I just
like didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so,
you know, like a do full like happiness scientists that
I am. I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I'm putting it in the lab, putting it in.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
The lab, right, Like, but it's hard. It's hard in midlife,
I think for lots of reasons.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
One is that we're all so busy. Right, It wasn't
the ease with which I made friendships with people, say
like in college or something like that, where you're naturally
running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class,
or I have this sort of movie night that I
go to. You meet friends there and it's like you
actually have to put something in the calendar and that
can be prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this,
(04:40):
I can say that it is possible in midlife to
make new friends. But it does feel like it takes
some energy in some work.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
And was there anything specific you tried.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering,
like you have to be the one that says like, hey,
maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe
we should go shopping together, maybe we should go see
this movie together. What I did find though, is that
if you can kind of get through the hurdle of
like figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really
into it. Like my experience has been like when you
kind of push people to like take the friendship a
(05:11):
next step, most people are kind of into that. It's
just like we're all so busy it can be hard
to get things on the calendar.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, and I know that there's research showing that, like
people really do value relationships. And even though you can
feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that
gesture to go deeper with a friendship, usually people are
very welcome of it, Like, if you want to be friends,
probably they want to be friends. And that's kind of
comforting to remember totally.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I think this is a whole set of biases
that I think if we're talking about friendship we need
to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck
when it comes to thinking about friendships, Like we just
have these biases that lead us towards anti friendship or undersociality,
as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my
favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which
is just like you assume that everybody in your life,
(05:53):
from your best best you know, writer Diabesty to like
the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop.
You assume that that person likes you less than that
person actually likes you. Uh huh. The liking gap is
like such a sad series of studies because they find it,
like even like college roommates, Like your college roommate that
you've lived with for a year. If you ask how
much does your college roomate like you, A person will say, well,
(06:15):
they like me, you like only so, so where's the
college roomate's Like, Oh.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
My gosh, I love them. That's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
It's like systematically pushing us. Yeah, systematically pushing us towards
less friendship, which is which is terrible. Our mind shouldn't
work that way.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, it's reassuring to remember that though. That's totally total. Man,
how about you, Rushma, what have you done to strengthen
our build relationships?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
God, I mean, as Laurie is talking, I have so
many thoughts. I mean, well, first of all, I always
had a tight crew of friends, and so I've been
someone who you know, spends my life being extrovert, as
both of you understand, and so like, I like keeping
it tight and small, and I like being able to
just you know, when I have dinner with a friend
(06:56):
or we go on a girls' trips, like we're just
talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip or about nothing. Like
it's just not serious. We're not talking about jobs, we're
not talking about like what we want to change that.
I've spent my whole life doing that. So I'm a
really good friend. Like I pride myself.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
On it, right, Oh, identity.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, Like I feel like ironically, even though I might
be the busiest, I'm out of all my friends, like
I'm the three am phone call, right, I'm the friend
when you're going through substance abuse that is there, right, Like,
I'm that friend. And so I think in order for
me to be a good friend, I always kept my
friendship circle really small, but my acquaintance pool very large. Right.
(07:39):
So I have a drink with you, right, you know
what I mean, We'll catch up, but I'm not going
to tell you all my secrets, right or like we're
not you know, we're not going to get there because
I just don't think then I have the can can
give that way. So I think one that's always been
really important to me. So one of the reasons why
I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in
midlife things change, and even people you've been friends with
(07:59):
for twenty years change and there's breakups and if you're
somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard.
I think the second thing is is that living in
New York, everybody leaves so all of a sudden, right.
I feel like I found myself when my kids were
really young, Like, oh my god, I got too many
people I got to have dinner with, or see a
(08:20):
Broadway show with, or do this thing with to all
of a sudden like looking at my ten year old
being like, what are you doing tonight? You want to
watch a movie? Right? Like everything shit because nobody was
there left and I had not learned, and I still
don't know. I still don't I still don't know how
to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make
a lot of acquaintances, but I really struggle with new friends.
(08:41):
And if I was honest too, I just also like
had a little bit of judgment around it. And I
remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book, and
she wrote in there like that she makes a new
friend every year, and I was like, really, like if
Hillary can make a new friend every year, then I
should be able to make a new friend, you know
what I mean? Every year. So that was a big
eye opener for me.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Let me ask you a quick question. When you say
you keep it tight, Like what is that number? I'm
just curious, like is that three? Is that ten?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Like under it's under I would say it's under under seven,
under eight.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
All of Rushman's friends listening right now are like, they're like,
am I one of the seventh.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I think that there are many different types of friendship
maybe more than people say, Like I think sometimes it's
like are you friends or are you not friends? Or
it's interesting, Rushman, you were saying you'd have your tight
close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to
me it seems like maybe it's good to think about
different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life
in a different way. And also, like you say, have
(09:48):
different levels of responsibility and like intimacy that we bring
to it and that we expect from it. But they
can all add to our lives. But before we get
into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these
different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing
about types of friendship as we're thinking this through?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, what's the science say? I mean, I guess a
couple of things. I mean, one is, what the science
really clearly shows is that like any kind of social
connections go right. I mean, just like, yeah, these at
the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train,
all of that's good, right, And so I think overall,
what the research is trying to do is to categorize
those forms of social connection, and so often researchers break
(10:26):
up different kinds of ways that we could connect to
other people in terms of three different categories. They call
them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of
communal friends. And so the intimate one it doesn't mean
like intimate in a like romantic intimate sets. It means
kind of I think what Russima is getting at your
crew like share everything exactly right. The relational friends are
(10:49):
the ones that you like do stuff with, you know,
so you might like grab a glass of wine, you
might go see a movie, and it's like a one
on one thing. But they're not the three am call
in the same way, Gretchen, I think this is what
you're getting at when you were saying that, like when
your kids move away, you realize a lot of people
are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right.
But there's another I mean that I think we often forget,
(11:10):
which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends.
And these is like your book club, like the crew
of people you go to pilates with, or your church group. Right,
Like this is like a parents in your appearents in
like your kid's class, like the soccer moms that you
see like you know on the field, right, and those
are sometimes the people that we can see most often,
depending on what those like community events are, they might
(11:32):
be our most frequent other friends. And they're really good
for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities.
But again they're a little bit different than the other ones.
You might not with the soccer mom unless you take
it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be
a three am call, but it might not even be
the go to the movie together.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
But it could be the first step toward an intimate friends.
It could be a starter. It might have the capacity
or the possibility of going further. Even if it's not.
Then if you want to build a friend, like Rushma
is saying it's hard to make new friends, maybe that's
a place to find new.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Friends, totally right, because you have to have some sort
of connection with people to like move them from the categories.
And I think it just takes some work. Right, You
have to be on the soccer field with the mom
and be like, hey, do you want to get a
coffee later outside the soccer field, or do you want
to like go get a movie or share something together?
And again that feels vulnerable, like it feels scary to
almost ask like because the person I like no, or
(12:23):
I don't have time, and you'll just feel like I
got rejected.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Laurie, where does your work friends go? Because that's the
other thing I've found, Like, I'm a workaholic, so I
find that my work friends are now like my best friend.
My always teases me, is like, it doesn't count if
you pay them.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, oh yeah, it's tricky. No, I think. I think
I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right.
You know, to take the work friend that like you
all go to the softball game together, right, that might
feel very communal. Right, if it's a work friend that
you occasionally go out to get a drink for, but
they don't really know any of your real intimate life
or your big secrets, right, that would probably be more relational.
But there are definitely work friends that are the rider
(13:00):
die besties that hear you know all this stuff. I
definitely have had work friends that are my three am call, right.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And so I'm not sure that I think that those
three categories are very very helpful because it almost makes
them feel like they're in a hierarchy. But I feel
like it's almost more helpful to think about them as
types of friends or the role they play like a
childhood friend. Yeah, they know us in a way, they
know our parents, they know our childhood dog, you know,
even if now we're very poor part of than them
(13:27):
in life. There's something about the childhood friends, Laurie, you
mentioned the couple's friends, where you know you can go
out on a double date. There's sort of a special
kind of thing if you travel with people, and that's
maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would
travel in the same way people that you know online.
Oh yeah, does that count, like if you haven't met
(13:47):
people in real life, or like people that you've only
seen on zoom you guys, I mean what about parasocial relationships?
I mean, I bet you will have people who consider
you their paro social friends. Plus I do, and then
I also have my own parasocial friends and people who
I listen to. So I don't know. I mean, what
other kinds of friends am I missing?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I mean, I think I think you're totally right that
it's super complicated. Although push back on the idea that
those three categories I gave are hierarchical, I think we
kind of need all of them.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Right, that's true.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I definitely have been in situations and even during my
burnout situation, I would describe being in this where I
still had my intimate friends. I had my besties that
I would call at night, but I had nobody to
go to yoga class with and nobody to go for
a walk with.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
It has to go with near friends and far friends.
And this is what you're talking about, is what about
when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a
far friend. Well, then that completely changes the energy of
the relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Well, this is why I like your category story because
it made me feel almost like better, right, Like, I
think one of the things that I've had to contend
with in midlife is that it's okay a friendship shift.
They don't have to be somebody who's your intimate friend
has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then
become your relational friend. And that's that doesn't mean that
you failed because I think for women in particular, because
(15:02):
we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very
hard when they fall apart in your life, I feel
like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder.
And it's it's different because It's unlike your parents, like,
no matter what, you're stuck with them, right, or your siblings, right,
it doesn't matter obligation, what happens to them, whether they
(15:23):
turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or
like you know, I mean didn't get this, like you're
like stuck with them. Whereas for friendships, especially as you
get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have
to be in this toxic relationship, like I don't have
to do this.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Freshena.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I mean, most recently I've had to contend with the
potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened. No, yeah,
it's never happened to me before. But I think part
of without going into the details, right, but part of
what I think I realized is that it's okay and
that sometimes people are going through things and you got
(16:04):
to allow there to be some distance and that doesn't
mean it's forever, and that's okay. You know, I think
for a lot of us as women, we carry a
lot of regret, and we carry a lot of envy,
a lot of what a should a kodas you know,
and I think the older you get, you realize that, well,
that might not happen for me. And I think that
that oftentimes breathes a lot of anger. And I think
(16:28):
that a lot of people are struggling, as my monk
would say, like a lot of people are really suffering.
And friendships used to be the way you healed, right,
Like you remember that when you would go through a
breakup and you'd be like devastated and you just had
to sit in a room with your girlfriends and like
drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of
bad food and just cry and watch a movie and
(16:49):
like it just after a week of doing that, you were,
like you felt better. That's just it's just harder to
do that these days because of all the commitments that
you have in your life to really use friendship as
a tool of healing. Well.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So maybe that's a good point, which is that we
have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different stages
of life and not and again not feel like a
failure if it doesn't look the way that it used
to look. You know, if you're not staying up until
two am talking heart to heart with somebody that doesn't
mean that they're not a real, true intimate friend the
way they might have been.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Although I think we also have to get other people's
definitions of friends, because some of my friendship strife throughout
the years has been realizing that, like we're just on
a different page with how we're defining friendship. Like like
what like, So I had th very close friends still
my very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll
know I'm talking about her who lived near me in
New Haven, like worked mirror me at yea. We were like,
(17:49):
you know, bestie's bestie's tight, and for lots of reasons,
she wound up taking a job really far away. And
you know, I was not just sad that my friend
was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated,
Like I felt like there was like a break to
the friendship. And she couldn't understand this.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Shop like you felt betrayed almost that she took the job.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
That she took a job, and I knew the job
was right for her. It was like it was totally
the right move, but I had this special sense of betrayal.
And it was only through like a long conversation where
we realized she was like, oh, wait, like, definitional to
your idea of our friendship is that we hang out
in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together,
walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not
(18:29):
in my definition. Our friendship will be just as good
as friends if we do all that same stuff on
the phone or over zoom or once a month. And
that conversation I think really helped both of us because
it was like, Oh, under your definition, this isn't a
friend breakup to you in the same way it's sort
of feeling to me. And that just caused me to realize, like, oh,
we all have these different definitions, like you know, if
(18:49):
you don't maybe your definition was like, if you don't
spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend.
Or if like you know, if we don't give gifts
to each other at Christmas or we don't celebrate our kids' birthdays.
I think we all have these kind of deep seated,
intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't
told our friends. So our friends sometimes wind up violating
these that without realizing they're doing.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
That is a really good point and like life maturity, right,
because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities.
You got to take care of your kids, or if
you have a partner, or if you have like a
challenging job. So it's like the time that you can
spend is just different. And I think for some people,
like for me, I judge quality of time rather than
like the length of time. I'm going on a girl's
trip with one of my friends tomorrow, who like lives
(19:33):
in Atlanta, and maybe we talk on that we see
each other three times a year, but she is my
best friend, right and we know that we're going to
get together for forty eight hours and like it's going
to feel like we spent a year together. And like
those are a lot of like you know, the relationships
that I have in my life where I don't have
to spend all of this time, But it's the quality
of time we're together. We're like super into each other
(19:56):
and super engage and just not like nothing's changed.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest
obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the
sheer new sense of are you free? Okay, maybe you
live in another country, are you free that I can
call you while I'm on a call in Central Park
and we can talk by phone. Yes, okay, what we
got to manage the time? Oh, we want to go
into Atlanta on a girls trip. I can't do this weekend.
(20:22):
What about that week? I no, this week? Oh turns
out I can't. Can we move it back a week? No,
we can't.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Gresh and it's like, you're in my DMS right now. No,
I'm turning fifty years old this year. Yeah, but maybe
you're going through the same thing, Rushma, which is like
my college friends, Like I have this whole coolhor of
friends who are also turning fifty, and we're like, wouldn't
it be great if we can have you a fifty
birthday party all together, and literally our whole DM is like,
(20:48):
what about June? No, my in laws are coming in June.
Like I can't do it.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It's like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And then you just give up. You're like, yes, that's
exactly what's happened in my group. BED is like no
one's replied for like the last fourties, and I think
we're all just like I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Okay, okay. Now speaking of the question of understanding friends
and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set
of expectations or different understandings. Okay, so my four tendencies framework,
(21:24):
which is a personality framework that divides people into upholder's, questioners, obligers,
and rebels, and it has to do with whether you
meet or resist outer in inner expectations, outer expectations like
a work deadline, inner expectations like your own desire to
keep a near's resolution. And I'm just going to go
through this super fast. If people want to know more
about it, they can just go to Gretchenreuben dot com
slash quiz and take the quiz and find out if
(21:45):
they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. Learn all about it.
But just for this, just the nutshell version is upholders
readily meet outer and inner expectations, so they meet the
work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. Reshma,
I know you're an upholder and I'm an a polder.
We're a small group, small but mighty. A bigger group
is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if
(22:07):
they think it makes sense, So they're turning everything into
an inner expectation, so they have to know why. But
if they know why and they understand why they can
do something. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest
group of people for both men and women. This is
the largest group, Laurie, you are proud member of Team Obliger.
Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet
inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises
(22:29):
to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises
to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then
finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out an inner alike.
So these are the people who can do anything they
want to do anything they choose to do, but if
you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist.
And typically they don't sell themselves what to do, so
(22:49):
they don't like put anything on the calendar. And the
reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for
friendship is that I found that now that I understand
the four tendancies, I'm much more understanding of how different
people are different and bring a different energy into relationships.
For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on
the calendar. It makes them feel trapped. They don't like it.
(23:11):
So I had a rebel friend who I would try
to say something like Hey, do you want to go
to a movie on Friday? And she would always just
be really evasive. I'd be like, Oh, there's this great play,
do you want to see it? And I'm like, does
this person not really like me because they don't want
to commit to me? But then I'm like, know, now
that I know she's a rebel, it's much better to
say something last minute, like Hey, I'm going to be
in your neighborhood. If you're going to be around on
Saturday afternoon you want to grab a coffee, you can
(23:33):
let me know. I'll just text you when I mean
I'm outside your door, because then it's spontaneous and she
can do whatever she wants. But so that helped me
understand how not to be angry or resentful when people
behaved in a certain way. So I don't know, as
an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this
might cause conflict or explain things that you've.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Experienced for the rection, Am I more likely to have
a better relationship with someone who is just like me
and a polder? Or No?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Probably? Yeah, right, because because it's like you just no,
But obliger just get along with everybody. Obligerent type, they
are the ones that get the best with all three tendencies.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes, except I think except you know, I've always like
wondered about, you know, the like scientific efficacy of the
four tendans.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Sure, I know, and Annie Murphy Paul who studies personality frameworks.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yes, but there is deep truth into one part of
the obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is
this phenomena that you've called obliger rebellion, which is when
the obligers have too many external demands on our time,
sometimes they're just like f it, I'm giving up on everything. Yes,
and definitely I have been in that mode before. And
(24:44):
the sad thing is like, sometimes what has to give
is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed,
right Like I'm kind of like, oh my gosh, I'm
overwhelmed for everything. But I don't, you know, quit my
podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig.
But that yoga session I was going to have with
a friend, Hey, can we do that another time? I'll
switch it up. Or that call that I know I
(25:04):
was going to put out for a friend who was
grieving that kind of falls by the wayside.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
And I think this is a perfect example. If I'm
your friend and I know you're obliger, and I see
obliged rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the
burnout and the overwhelmed happening. I can say things to
you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure
on you. Yes, exactly, you know, like, hey, you know
you've got so much going on. I know we talked
about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should push
(25:29):
it to next month when the dust settles.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Oh dredging you just saying that, I feel like then
weight on my chest was like that's great. Yeah, yeah,
because you don't feel like it's personal.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You don't feel like it's personal.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, And so for I think for an upholder, I
don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so
scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Right, Like if you drop the ball on me, why
you must have chosen you must have not.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Thought that I was. You must have looked through your
calendar and like, well, she's not important, so I'm going
to cancel that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Or if somebody if you say to a friend, oh,
well you know, I'm going to be free Saturday afternoon,
five weeks from now at two, and somebody's like, well,
I don't really want to commit, and you're like, what's
your problem. Let's put this on the calendar so that
it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important
to you, there's a place on the calendar for that.
And other people are like your bananas for scheduling out
your life.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
You know, five weeks someone who's close friends with a
few different rebels that just.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, it doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
It doesn't work, don't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. So
I guess at midlife, though, should we just make friends
with people like us because it's easier.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
No, you get so much out of friendships with people
who are different than you.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Well, and I'm married to a question and it's super
valuable because I always have his voice in my head
being like, why are you going to do that? Because
this is an upholder. My tendency is like okay, will
do And I think it gives you a grace for
understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in.
So then the last thing I want to ask, and
this is a really fun question, which is do you
(27:01):
have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is
there something that a person could do as part of
their ordinary day to either deep in existing friendships or
build towards new friendships because we've talked about both and
you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which
sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time,
which we do not have. Yes, but what are some simple,
(27:23):
easy things that we can incorporate?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I got one, like, so my friend Tiffany Defu taught
me this.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I think, you know, she's an obliger.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I can see that so well. But then this is
an interesting story. So she was telling the story how
she had, you know, she had a girl's trip planned,
and her daughter Kua said to her, oh, mom, you
know I need you this weekend.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Ooh okay, Laurie as an obliger, yeah is that buttons, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It's like I need you this weekend. It's really important.
And Tiffany thought about it and she looked at her
and she said, no, I'm going to go on my
girl's trip because if I don't show you that, I'm
going to put myself first, then you are never going
to learn that that's important to do that. And so
I think the take home that I would say to
all of us is we all need to do that
(28:11):
because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled, It's
often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often
our friendships, right that take the back seat to like
everyone else's needs. And we know, no, no, no, that
when you die, the thing that mattered the most was
your friendships in your relationship. So like that can't be
in the back. So I think every time we feel
(28:32):
that push and pull, pick friendship.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And can you think of an example in your own
life where you had to have that struggle in your
own mind of part of me wants to keep working
or buckle down or go to sleep early all the time.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I have like a five and a ten year old,
who are two boys who make me feel guilty every
single minute. I could be around them all day long.
There where are you going? I mean, I'm going to
Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow and my son pouted
all the way to school when he realized that I
was leaving the next day. So I think, like mom.
Guilt is real and it is a constant exercise. You
(29:08):
know what I mean that I know that I have
to go through and one of the things though, it
has taught me, though, Gretchen and I've really been thinking
about this. I remember I go to a conference and
I would tell a story about that that my son
was upset that I was leaving, and the women in
the room would say, well, don't worry Rushma, because he's
not going to remember. And I remember thinking to myself,
but I'm going to remember.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
So I think it's really important to figure out what
you want and what makes you happy. And it was
interesting Lori's I was listening to you. I cancel other
things before my friends. I need to be with friends.
I need that girls trip, that dinner, that plate like,
I need my girl time.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, as Gretchen will tell you, obliged to rebellion is
not the most rational state to be in when you
hit that point, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yes, yeah, but it's interesting that you articulated for yourself
in that way. And I think that's helpful. Like my
identity is I am a good friend. I show up
and when I'm weighing this versus that friendship prevails. Like
say to myself, when I'm trying to think of how
to spend my precious time, energy, or money, I should
(30:13):
always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just
like a heuristic that helps me, Like should I pay
to go to my college reunion and deal with the
hassle of making the things? Or should I stay on
that really tiresome text chain or like you were saying, Lord,
are you the one that has to bear the awkwardness
of the first want to get a copy where you
(30:34):
feel like, oh my gosh, this feels so silly. So
I think that's a really great thing. And I think
just being really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit,
is very helpful. And how about you, Laurie, what would
you say?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
So mine that I've been really trying to act on
myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes
to like connecting with other people. Right, So I often
am just going through the day and we'll have thoughts
about friends, Like yesterday, I was carrying a bag that
a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa.
It's this very pretty, like blue kind of like grocery
bag thing. And I was just using it to carry something,
and I just had a positive thought about my friend, right,
(31:08):
what you normally do just keep those positive thoughts to ourselves.
But of course I could have just like text her
and be like, hey, have your bag today, still enjoying it.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Just thinking of you, or like like just even sending
a photo of you holding.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You with the bag, I'm still using it. Yeah, And
so this is something I've tried to do a lot
more when I have a positive thought about a friend,
whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone
gave you. Often you're still enjoying the gifts that someone
gave you and noticing it, but you never like remind
people right, you know, like the mug they gave you exactly,
And in fact I did. I did just this this
(31:40):
week with a friend of mine who literally gave me
a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug
this morning, and it caused a conversation with a friend
I hadn't connected with, and she was like, oh, that's
so nice to hear this morning because I'm right now
sitting in palliative care with my father who's not doing well.
And then I knew about that, and had I not
texted her about the MUG, I wouldn't have known that situation.
And so whenever you have an urge to give a
(32:03):
compliment and no a moment of gratitude, a memory, thinking
of you, just send the text, just put in the call,
just drop it in the email. You feel like they
won't notice, it won't matter to them, But there's literally
studies on this that shows no, it matters more than
you think. It's less awkward than you think, it means
more to the person than you think. Our biases mean
(32:23):
we like are underreach out. But that like moment of
check in, you know, especially that story, I wouldn't have
known that something bad was happening in her life. And
now I can check in and we can reconnect and
I can be there to help in a way that
I'm so happy I get to do that, right.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
One way that I do that is I'll often, in
an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in,
like what was happening this day, eight years ago or whatever,
And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or
something that we shared, and I'll just send it to
them and I usually just say flashback. I don't even
I don't even I can't even be bothered to type
a caption, you know. But again, I think it is
(33:00):
the idea that you're present in someone else's consciousness. Yes,
they're thinking of you, they're remembering you, or like, oh,
some this equal to a movie you saw together, like
something even from the news or something like that.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah, because people are going through things, so many things,
and I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them,
it's just it can shift their whole day so completely completely.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah. Well, and maybe that's a good thing to remember,
which is we think about how the friendships strengthen us
and make us happier. But then you also think, well,
but they're being made happier the friend and palliative care.
You didn't even think of it, but you're making that
person happier. And so when you're planning your trip to Atlanta,
you're happier. But then your friend is happier too, and
(33:47):
so it's easy to sort of think about, what, how
is this boosting my happiness? But of course there's more
than one person involved.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yet, and usually your perspective is wrong, right, Like when
I'm thinking like, oh, I'll text my friend because using
her bag and really appreciating it. Yeah, I'm thinking like, well,
how's that going to feel to me?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Of course she's on the other end and it's going
to hit her totally different. She's in the middle of
some random Wednesday and whatever stressor and she gets this
happy text. Right, that's surprise, which I didn't feel when
I was planning it, but she feels it on the
recipient end, and there's like, you know, just like this
warm glow that people think about this. This is something
else that some of the research shows that I've always
tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick
(34:24):
Epple and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking
about reaching out to someone, we tend to focus on
what he calls our competency. Am I going to write
the right text? Do I have time to not just
put like flashback and write the whole thing? Right? Am
I saying it right?
Speaker 3 (34:37):
You know?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
That's what we focus on, But our recipient doesn't see
any of that. They tend to just focus on the
warmth of it, like it's out of nowhere, this person
thought of me. It made me feel good, right, And
so sometimes our ability to do something nice for our friends,
get stuck in the competency party. Here's just another example.
I had a friend who is just he and his
wife just had a new baby, and I was like,
(34:58):
oh my gosh, it's been around since my friends were
having newborns, Like what do you do? Like, oh, you
send food? Like how do you send food or whatever?
And I was all up in my head about do
you send lasagna? Do they like lasagnya and grinala?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
And then I was thinking back to Nick's research and
it was like, wait, they're not going to think about
any of that. They're not going to analyize it like
that kind of was on you. They're just gonna be like,
oh my gosh, Laurie, out of the blue, semi this
nice thing. That's so nice. And so the idea is like,
whenever you get to urge to do something nice or
to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not going to notice that.
Just dive in and do it. However you do it,
it will feel good to them.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
The other thing is you guys are talking. I think
it's also great role modeling for our kids. Yeah, Like
both me and my husband like really value friendships. People
are always in our house, like you know what I mean,
And it's good, especially when you see how much more
isolated children are becoming now because of technology, and that
when we're making the effort to go have dinner with people,
or go to the next game with somebody, or go
(35:50):
on vacation with somebody, it's just good role modeling too.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yes, I think, yeah, no, they see that you have
a book group, they see that you're going out with yeah, right,
exactly exactly, that you're going to birthday parties. You're having
a birthday party.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
It also just makes adult life look less miserable than
when we're not like having fun with other people. I
think a lot of times kids are like me, an,
adult life is like terrible, But like when they see
us going on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends
or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much
more palatable than that.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Not yes, exactly, Well, listen, this is so much fun.
Lourie Reshma, thank you for talking friendship with me. I
feel elevated just having this conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Thanks so much for having us on the show.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
This was so much fun. And we're new friends now.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, we're new friends now.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yes, Miami trip next week.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
That's right, that's right, let's do it. Well. We hope
you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time
to start a happiness project is twenty years ago. The
second best time is now. Yeah,
Pushkin. Hey, Happiness Lab listeners, today you're in for a
treat because my friend, best selling author and happiness expert,
Gretchen Rubin just had me join her for a special
episode of her podcast, Happier with Gretchen Rubin. In this episode,
Gretchen and I took part in her first ever friendship roundtable,
(00:37):
and we were joined by the amazing Rushma Sajani, founder
of Girls Who Code and host of the My so
called midlife podcast. Gretchen Rushman and I talked about our friendships,
how they've changed over time, how we try to handle conflict,
and how we've made friends in adulthood. I enjoyed our
conversation a lot, and I bet you will too.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Because friendship is such a huge element to a happier life.
It is a great subject for a roundtable discussion to
go deeper, and three of us are here today to
talk about friendship. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness,
human nature, and friendship, and I am the host of
the Happier with Gretchen Ruben podcast. And also here today
(01:26):
is Lorie Santos. Lauri is a professor at Yale University,
where she has taught the most popular course in Yale History,
Psychology and the Good Life, and she's also host of
the Happiness Lab podcast, a terrific podcast that helps listeners
improve their well being with the science of happiness.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Hello, Laurie, Hey, Gretchen, Thanks so much for having me
on the show. This roundtable is fun, and we'll build
our own friendship.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
We'll build our friendship. There we go, and we are
also here with Reshma Sojohnny Reshman is the founder of
successful nonprofits Girls Who Code and Moms First, and the
best selling author of books including Pay Up, Brave, Not Perfect,
and the Girls Who Code book series. She is host
of the terrific podcast My So Called Midlife, where she
(02:12):
tackles the question She's gotten everything she's ever wanted, so
why does she feel so unsatisfied? Hello, Rashna, Hi Kretschen.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So great to be here.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
This is going to be such a fun conversation. Okay, So, friendship.
Ancient philosophers and contemporary scientists agree that relationships are a
key element to a happy life, and friendship is certainly
an extraordinarily important form of relationship. Lately, I have been
going through the empty nest phase of life, which I'm
rebranding is the open door phase of life. And one
(02:43):
thing that I noticed is how sometimes in this stage
people realize that they've been confusing friends with acquaintances, like
they thought they had friends, but they really just have
friendly acquaintances. And as I started talking more and more
about friendship, I could see that people were really fired
up about this subject. People really understand how important it is.
(03:03):
And we're recording this in women's history months. And while
friendships are certainly not exclusive to women, there is some
kind of special about women's friendships. And so I'm so
excited to talk to you both about friendship.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yes, yeah, this is gonna be awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
Excellent, So let's talk about friendship in your own life.
Have there been any special steps that you have taken
in your own life to either strengthen existing friendships or
to create new friendships? I mean, because what does it
make new friends but keep the old one is silver,
the others gold? What have you done in your own
life towards this aim, Laurie, I'll let me ask you first.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I was so excited
to have this conversation is I feel like this is
something I've been thinking about a lot, right. You know,
I went through this period of feeling super burned out,
and one of the things I recognized during that period
was that like I hadn't been investing enough time in
my friendships. I too felt like I had a lot
of these like so called relational friendships where it's like,
you know, maybe I would see somebody at work, or
(03:58):
we were just kind of friends because we happened, you know,
my husband happened to know his partner or something like that.
And like it was I was finding that I just
like didn't have the close connections that I thought. And so,
you know, like a do full like happiness scientists that
I am. I was like, I'm gonna go about making friends.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I'm putting it in the lab, putting it in.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
The lab, right, Like, but it's hard. It's hard in midlife,
I think for lots of reasons.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Right.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
One is that we're all so busy. Right, It wasn't
the ease with which I made friendships with people, say
like in college or something like that, where you're naturally
running into each other. You meet someone at your yoga class,
or I have this sort of movie night that I
go to. You meet friends there and it's like you
actually have to put something in the calendar and that
can be prohibitively taxing. But having put some effort into this,
(04:40):
I can say that it is possible in midlife to
make new friends. But it does feel like it takes
some energy in some work.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
And was there anything specific you tried.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I think it's like putting yourself out there and offering,
like you have to be the one that says like, hey,
maybe we should go on a coffee date, or maybe
we should go shopping together, maybe we should go see
this movie together. What I did find though, is that
if you can kind of get through the hurdle of
like figuring out everybody's collective schedules, people are usually really
into it. Like my experience has been like when you
kind of push people to like take the friendship a
(05:11):
next step, most people are kind of into that. It's
just like we're all so busy it can be hard
to get things on the calendar.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Well, and I know that there's research showing that, like
people really do value relationships. And even though you can
feel sort of awkward or self conscious by making that
gesture to go deeper with a friendship, usually people are
very welcome of it, Like, if you want to be friends,
probably they want to be friends. And that's kind of
comforting to remember totally.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And I think this is a whole set of biases
that I think if we're talking about friendship we need
to acknowledge, which is that our minds kind of suck
when it comes to thinking about friendships, Like we just
have these biases that lead us towards anti friendship or undersociality,
as the researcher Nick Epley calls it. One of my
favorite ones is this effect called the liking gap, which
is just like you assume that everybody in your life,
(05:53):
from your best best you know, writer Diabesty to like
the person that you chat with occasionally at the coffee shop.
You assume that that person likes you less than that
person actually likes you. Uh huh. The liking gap is
like such a sad series of studies because they find it,
like even like college roommates, Like your college roommate that
you've lived with for a year. If you ask how
much does your college roomate like you, A person will say, well,
(06:15):
they like me, you like only so, so where's the
college roomate's Like, Oh.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
My gosh, I love them. That's so interesting.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
It's like systematically pushing us. Yeah, systematically pushing us towards
less friendship, which is which is terrible. Our mind shouldn't
work that way.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, it's reassuring to remember that though. That's totally total. Man,
how about you, Rushma, what have you done to strengthen
our build relationships?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
God, I mean, as Laurie is talking, I have so
many thoughts. I mean, well, first of all, I always
had a tight crew of friends, and so I've been
someone who you know, spends my life being extrovert, as
both of you understand, and so like, I like keeping
it tight and small, and I like being able to
just you know, when I have dinner with a friend
(06:56):
or we go on a girls' trips, like we're just
talking about gossip, about celebrity gossip or about nothing. Like
it's just not serious. We're not talking about jobs, we're
not talking about like what we want to change that.
I've spent my whole life doing that. So I'm a
really good friend. Like I pride myself.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
On it, right, Oh, identity.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Yeah, Like I feel like ironically, even though I might
be the busiest, I'm out of all my friends, like
I'm the three am phone call, right, I'm the friend
when you're going through substance abuse that is there, right, Like,
I'm that friend. And so I think in order for
me to be a good friend, I always kept my
friendship circle really small, but my acquaintance pool very large. Right.
(07:39):
So I have a drink with you, right, you know
what I mean, We'll catch up, but I'm not going
to tell you all my secrets, right or like we're
not you know, we're not going to get there because
I just don't think then I have the can can
give that way. So I think one that's always been
really important to me. So one of the reasons why
I wanted to really start looking at midlife is in
midlife things change, and even people you've been friends with
(07:59):
for twenty years change and there's breakups and if you're
somebody that like has kept your crew tight, that's really hard.
I think the second thing is is that living in
New York, everybody leaves so all of a sudden, right.
I feel like I found myself when my kids were
really young, Like, oh my god, I got too many
people I got to have dinner with, or see a
(08:20):
Broadway show with, or do this thing with to all
of a sudden like looking at my ten year old
being like, what are you doing tonight? You want to
watch a movie? Right? Like everything shit because nobody was
there left and I had not learned, and I still
don't know. I still don't I still don't know how
to make new friends. I really struggle. I can make
a lot of acquaintances, but I really struggle with new friends.
(08:41):
And if I was honest too, I just also like
had a little bit of judgment around it. And I
remember I was reading my mentor Hillary Clinton's book, and
she wrote in there like that she makes a new
friend every year, and I was like, really, like if
Hillary can make a new friend every year, then I
should be able to make a new friend, you know
what I mean? Every year. So that was a big
eye opener for me.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Let me ask you a quick question. When you say
you keep it tight, Like what is that number? I'm
just curious, like is that three? Is that ten?
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Like under it's under I would say it's under under seven,
under eight.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
All of Rushman's friends listening right now are like, they're like,
am I one of the seventh.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
I think that there are many different types of friendship
maybe more than people say, Like I think sometimes it's
like are you friends or are you not friends? Or
it's interesting, Rushman, you were saying you'd have your tight
close friends and then you have your acquaintances. And to
me it seems like maybe it's good to think about
different categories, all of whom maybe add to our life
in a different way. And also, like you say, have
(09:48):
different levels of responsibility and like intimacy that we bring
to it and that we expect from it. But they
can all add to our lives. But before we get
into sort of our own colloquial sense of all these
different kinds of friends, Laurie, what is the research showing
about types of friendship as we're thinking this through?
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Yeah, what's the science say? I mean, I guess a
couple of things. I mean, one is, what the science
really clearly shows is that like any kind of social
connections go right. I mean, just like, yeah, these at
the coffee shop, chat with the person on the train,
all of that's good, right, And so I think overall,
what the research is trying to do is to categorize
those forms of social connection, and so often researchers break
(10:26):
up different kinds of ways that we could connect to
other people in terms of three different categories. They call
them intimate kind of friendships, relational friends, and sort of
communal friends. And so the intimate one it doesn't mean
like intimate in a like romantic intimate sets. It means
kind of I think what Russima is getting at your
crew like share everything exactly right. The relational friends are
(10:49):
the ones that you like do stuff with, you know,
so you might like grab a glass of wine, you
might go see a movie, and it's like a one
on one thing. But they're not the three am call
in the same way, Gretchen, I think this is what
you're getting at when you were saying that, like when
your kids move away, you realize a lot of people
are in that relational category, but maybe not the intimate category. Right.
But there's another I mean that I think we often forget,
(11:10):
which is a sort of communal or kind of community friends.
And these is like your book club, like the crew
of people you go to pilates with, or your church group. Right,
Like this is like a parents in your appearents in
like your kid's class, like the soccer moms that you
see like you know on the field, right, and those
are sometimes the people that we can see most often,
depending on what those like community events are, they might
(11:32):
be our most frequent other friends. And they're really good
for kind of having these shared values and these shared activities.
But again they're a little bit different than the other ones.
You might not with the soccer mom unless you take
it to a new level. It's definitely not gonna be
a three am call, but it might not even be
the go to the movie together.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
But it could be the first step toward an intimate friends.
It could be a starter. It might have the capacity
or the possibility of going further. Even if it's not.
Then if you want to build a friend, like Rushma
is saying it's hard to make new friends, maybe that's
a place to find new.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Friends, totally right, because you have to have some sort
of connection with people to like move them from the categories.
And I think it just takes some work. Right, You
have to be on the soccer field with the mom
and be like, hey, do you want to get a
coffee later outside the soccer field, or do you want
to like go get a movie or share something together?
And again that feels vulnerable, like it feels scary to
almost ask like because the person I like no, or
(12:23):
I don't have time, and you'll just feel like I
got rejected.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Laurie, where does your work friends go? Because that's the
other thing I've found, Like, I'm a workaholic, so I
find that my work friends are now like my best friend.
My always teases me, is like, it doesn't count if
you pay them.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Yeah, oh yeah, it's tricky. No, I think. I think
I think work friends can be in any of these categories. Right.
You know, to take the work friend that like you
all go to the softball game together, right, that might
feel very communal. Right, if it's a work friend that
you occasionally go out to get a drink for, but
they don't really know any of your real intimate life
or your big secrets, right, that would probably be more relational.
But there are definitely work friends that are the rider
(13:00):
die besties that hear you know all this stuff. I
definitely have had work friends that are my three am call, right.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
And so I'm not sure that I think that those
three categories are very very helpful because it almost makes
them feel like they're in a hierarchy. But I feel
like it's almost more helpful to think about them as
types of friends or the role they play like a
childhood friend. Yeah, they know us in a way, they
know our parents, they know our childhood dog, you know,
even if now we're very poor part of than them
(13:27):
in life. There's something about the childhood friends, Laurie, you
mentioned the couple's friends, where you know you can go
out on a double date. There's sort of a special
kind of thing if you travel with people, and that's
maybe not even that they're so intimate, but you would
travel in the same way people that you know online.
Oh yeah, does that count, like if you haven't met
(13:47):
people in real life, or like people that you've only
seen on zoom you guys, I mean what about parasocial relationships?
I mean, I bet you will have people who consider
you their paro social friends. Plus I do, and then
I also have my own parasocial friends and people who
I listen to. So I don't know. I mean, what
other kinds of friends am I missing?
Speaker 3 (14:05):
No?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
I mean, I think I think you're totally right that
it's super complicated. Although push back on the idea that
those three categories I gave are hierarchical, I think we
kind of need all of them.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Right, that's true.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
I definitely have been in situations and even during my
burnout situation, I would describe being in this where I
still had my intimate friends. I had my besties that
I would call at night, but I had nobody to
go to yoga class with and nobody to go for
a walk with.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
It has to go with near friends and far friends.
And this is what you're talking about, is what about
when somebody who was a near friend then becomes a
far friend. Well, then that completely changes the energy of
the relationship.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Well, this is why I like your category story because
it made me feel almost like better, right, Like, I
think one of the things that I've had to contend
with in midlife is that it's okay a friendship shift.
They don't have to be somebody who's your intimate friend
has to be your intimate friend forever. They can then
become your relational friend. And that's that doesn't mean that
you failed because I think for women in particular, because
(15:02):
we take our friendship so seriously, is that it's very
hard when they fall apart in your life, I feel
like I did something wrong or I should have tried harder.
And it's it's different because It's unlike your parents, like,
no matter what, you're stuck with them, right, or your siblings, right,
it doesn't matter obligation, what happens to them, whether they
(15:23):
turn into an alcoholic or become a raging bitch or
like you know, I mean didn't get this, like you're
like stuck with them. Whereas for friendships, especially as you
get older, I think people realize, well, I don't have
to be in this toxic relationship, like I don't have
to do this.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Have you managed severe strife in a friendship yourself, Freshena.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
I mean, most recently I've had to contend with the
potential breakup, which is the first time that's ever happened. No, yeah,
it's never happened to me before. But I think part
of without going into the details, right, but part of
what I think I realized is that it's okay and
that sometimes people are going through things and you got
(16:04):
to allow there to be some distance and that doesn't
mean it's forever, and that's okay. You know, I think
for a lot of us as women, we carry a
lot of regret, and we carry a lot of envy,
a lot of what a should a kodas you know,
and I think the older you get, you realize that, well,
that might not happen for me. And I think that
that oftentimes breathes a lot of anger. And I think
(16:28):
that a lot of people are struggling, as my monk
would say, like a lot of people are really suffering.
And friendships used to be the way you healed, right,
Like you remember that when you would go through a
breakup and you'd be like devastated and you just had
to sit in a room with your girlfriends and like
drink a lot of wine and eat a lot of
bad food and just cry and watch a movie and
(16:49):
like it just after a week of doing that, you were,
like you felt better. That's just it's just harder to
do that these days because of all the commitments that
you have in your life to really use friendship as
a tool of healing. Well.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So maybe that's a good point, which is that we
have to acknowledge that friendship looks different at different stages
of life and not and again not feel like a
failure if it doesn't look the way that it used
to look. You know, if you're not staying up until
two am talking heart to heart with somebody that doesn't
mean that they're not a real, true intimate friend the
way they might have been.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
Although I think we also have to get other people's
definitions of friends, because some of my friendship strife throughout
the years has been realizing that, like we're just on
a different page with how we're defining friendship. Like like
what like, So I had th very close friends still
my very close friend. I won't use names, but she'll
know I'm talking about her who lived near me in
New Haven, like worked mirror me at yea. We were like,
(17:49):
you know, bestie's bestie's tight, and for lots of reasons,
she wound up taking a job really far away. And
you know, I was not just sad that my friend
was moving away for all the reasons. I felt devastated,
Like I felt like there was like a break to
the friendship. And she couldn't understand this.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Shop like you felt betrayed almost that she took the job.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
That she took a job, and I knew the job
was right for her. It was like it was totally
the right move, but I had this special sense of betrayal.
And it was only through like a long conversation where
we realized she was like, oh, wait, like, definitional to
your idea of our friendship is that we hang out
in person, see each other at our house, eat meals together,
walk her dog together. And she was like, that's not
(18:29):
in my definition. Our friendship will be just as good
as friends if we do all that same stuff on
the phone or over zoom or once a month. And
that conversation I think really helped both of us because
it was like, Oh, under your definition, this isn't a
friend breakup to you in the same way it's sort
of feeling to me. And that just caused me to realize, like, oh,
we all have these different definitions, like you know, if
(18:49):
you don't maybe your definition was like, if you don't
spend your birthday with me, then we're not a good friend.
Or if like you know, if we don't give gifts
to each other at Christmas or we don't celebrate our kids' birthdays.
I think we all have these kind of deep seated,
intricate ideas of what matters for friendships that we haven't
told our friends. So our friends sometimes wind up violating
these that without realizing they're doing.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
That is a really good point and like life maturity, right,
because I think as you grow, you have more responsibilities.
You got to take care of your kids, or if
you have a partner, or if you have like a
challenging job. So it's like the time that you can
spend is just different. And I think for some people,
like for me, I judge quality of time rather than
like the length of time. I'm going on a girl's
trip with one of my friends tomorrow, who like lives
(19:33):
in Atlanta, and maybe we talk on that we see
each other three times a year, but she is my
best friend, right and we know that we're going to
get together for forty eight hours and like it's going
to feel like we spent a year together. And like
those are a lot of like you know, the relationships
that I have in my life where I don't have
to spend all of this time, But it's the quality
of time we're together. We're like super into each other
(19:56):
and super engage and just not like nothing's changed.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
I would say that I think scheduling is the biggest
obstacle in my life to friendship, which is just the
sheer new sense of are you free? Okay, maybe you
live in another country, are you free that I can
call you while I'm on a call in Central Park
and we can talk by phone. Yes, okay, what we
got to manage the time? Oh, we want to go
into Atlanta on a girls trip. I can't do this weekend.
(20:22):
What about that week? I no, this week? Oh turns
out I can't. Can we move it back a week? No,
we can't.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Gresh and it's like, you're in my DMS right now. No,
I'm turning fifty years old this year. Yeah, but maybe
you're going through the same thing, Rushma, which is like
my college friends, Like I have this whole coolhor of
friends who are also turning fifty, and we're like, wouldn't
it be great if we can have you a fifty
birthday party all together, and literally our whole DM is like,
(20:48):
what about June? No, my in laws are coming in June.
Like I can't do it.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
It's like, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (20:54):
And then you just give up. You're like, yes, that's
exactly what's happened in my group. BED is like no
one's replied for like the last fourties, and I think
we're all just like I was like, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Okay, okay. Now speaking of the question of understanding friends
and maybe holding grace when people bring a different set
of expectations or different understandings. Okay, so my four tendencies framework,
(21:24):
which is a personality framework that divides people into upholder's, questioners, obligers,
and rebels, and it has to do with whether you
meet or resist outer in inner expectations, outer expectations like
a work deadline, inner expectations like your own desire to
keep a near's resolution. And I'm just going to go
through this super fast. If people want to know more
about it, they can just go to Gretchenreuben dot com
slash quiz and take the quiz and find out if
(21:45):
they're an upholder, a questioner, obliger, rebel. Learn all about it.
But just for this, just the nutshell version is upholders
readily meet outer and inner expectations, so they meet the
work deadline, they keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. Reshma,
I know you're an upholder and I'm an a polder.
We're a small group, small but mighty. A bigger group
is questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if
(22:07):
they think it makes sense, So they're turning everything into
an inner expectation, so they have to know why. But
if they know why and they understand why they can
do something. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest
group of people for both men and women. This is
the largest group, Laurie, you are proud member of Team Obliger.
Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet
inner expectations. So they're really good at keeping their promises
(22:29):
to other people, but they struggle to keep their promises
to themselves unless they have that outer accountability. And then
finally rebels. Rebels resist all expectations out an inner alike.
So these are the people who can do anything they
want to do anything they choose to do, but if
you ask or tell them to do something, they will resist.
And typically they don't sell themselves what to do, so
(22:49):
they don't like put anything on the calendar. And the
reason why I think the four tendencies is helpful for
friendship is that I found that now that I understand
the four tendancies, I'm much more understanding of how different
people are different and bring a different energy into relationships.
For instance, rebels often don't like to put something on
the calendar. It makes them feel trapped. They don't like it.
(23:11):
So I had a rebel friend who I would try
to say something like Hey, do you want to go
to a movie on Friday? And she would always just
be really evasive. I'd be like, Oh, there's this great play,
do you want to see it? And I'm like, does
this person not really like me because they don't want
to commit to me? But then I'm like, know, now
that I know she's a rebel, it's much better to
say something last minute, like Hey, I'm going to be
in your neighborhood. If you're going to be around on
Saturday afternoon you want to grab a coffee, you can
(23:33):
let me know. I'll just text you when I mean
I'm outside your door, because then it's spontaneous and she
can do whatever she wants. But so that helped me
understand how not to be angry or resentful when people
behaved in a certain way. So I don't know, as
an obliger or an upholder, have you seen how this
might cause conflict or explain things that you've.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Experienced for the rection, Am I more likely to have
a better relationship with someone who is just like me
and a polder? Or No?
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Probably? Yeah, right, because because it's like you just no,
But obliger just get along with everybody. Obligerent type, they
are the ones that get the best with all three tendencies.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yes, except I think except you know, I've always like
wondered about, you know, the like scientific efficacy of the
four tendans.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Sure, I know, and Annie Murphy Paul who studies personality frameworks.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yes, but there is deep truth into one part of
the obliger personality type that you've talked about, which is
this phenomena that you've called obliger rebellion, which is when
the obligers have too many external demands on our time,
sometimes they're just like f it, I'm giving up on everything. Yes,
and definitely I have been in that mode before. And
(24:44):
the sad thing is like, sometimes what has to give
is stuff with my friends for which I'm really embarrassed,
right Like I'm kind of like, oh my gosh, I'm
overwhelmed for everything. But I don't, you know, quit my
podcasting job or not show up for my teaching gig.
But that yoga session I was going to have with
a friend, Hey, can we do that another time? I'll
switch it up. Or that call that I know I
(25:04):
was going to put out for a friend who was
grieving that kind of falls by the wayside.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
And I think this is a perfect example. If I'm
your friend and I know you're obliger, and I see
obliged rebellion, I feel like the burning resentment and the
burnout and the overwhelmed happening. I can say things to
you so that you don't feel like I'm putting pressure
on you. Yes, exactly, you know, like, hey, you know
you've got so much going on. I know we talked
about doing it this weekend, but maybe we should push
(25:29):
it to next month when the dust settles.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Oh dredging you just saying that, I feel like then
weight on my chest was like that's great. Yeah, yeah,
because you don't feel like it's personal.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You don't feel like it's personal.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Yeah, And so for I think for an upholder, I
don't have those problems because I'm so disciplined and so
scheduled that I'm like, I immediately think it's personal.
Speaker 2 (25:53):
Right, Like if you drop the ball on me, why
you must have chosen you must have not.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Thought that I was. You must have looked through your
calendar and like, well, she's not important, so I'm going
to cancel that.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Or if somebody if you say to a friend, oh,
well you know, I'm going to be free Saturday afternoon,
five weeks from now at two, and somebody's like, well,
I don't really want to commit, and you're like, what's
your problem. Let's put this on the calendar so that
it happens. If you're important to me and I'm important
to you, there's a place on the calendar for that.
And other people are like your bananas for scheduling out
your life.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
You know, five weeks someone who's close friends with a
few different rebels that just.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Yeah, it doesn't work.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
It doesn't work, don't work. Yeah, it doesn't work. So
I guess at midlife, though, should we just make friends
with people like us because it's easier.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
No, you get so much out of friendships with people
who are different than you.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Well, and I'm married to a question and it's super
valuable because I always have his voice in my head
being like, why are you going to do that? Because
this is an upholder. My tendency is like okay, will
do And I think it gives you a grace for
understanding how people are just bringing a completely different perspective in.
So then the last thing I want to ask, and
this is a really fun question, which is do you
(27:01):
have a try this at home suggestion for listeners? Is
there something that a person could do as part of
their ordinary day to either deep in existing friendships or
build towards new friendships because we've talked about both and
you sort of have to maintain and cultivate both, which
sounds like a lot of work and a lot of time,
which we do not have. Yes, but what are some simple,
(27:23):
easy things that we can incorporate?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
I got one, like, so my friend Tiffany Defu taught
me this.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I think, you know, she's an obliger.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
I can see that so well. But then this is
an interesting story. So she was telling the story how
she had, you know, she had a girl's trip planned,
and her daughter Kua said to her, oh, mom, you
know I need you this weekend.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Ooh okay, Laurie as an obliger, yeah is that buttons, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
It's like I need you this weekend. It's really important.
And Tiffany thought about it and she looked at her
and she said, no, I'm going to go on my
girl's trip because if I don't show you that, I'm
going to put myself first, then you are never going
to learn that that's important to do that. And so
I think the take home that I would say to
all of us is we all need to do that
(28:11):
because it's often the girls trip that gets canceled, It's
often the dinner with friends that gets canceled. It's often
our friendships, right that take the back seat to like
everyone else's needs. And we know, no, no, no, that
when you die, the thing that mattered the most was
your friendships in your relationship. So like that can't be
in the back. So I think every time we feel
(28:32):
that push and pull, pick friendship.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, love that, love that.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
And can you think of an example in your own
life where you had to have that struggle in your
own mind of part of me wants to keep working
or buckle down or go to sleep early all the time.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
I have like a five and a ten year old,
who are two boys who make me feel guilty every
single minute. I could be around them all day long.
There where are you going? I mean, I'm going to
Miami with my girlfriend Deepa tomorrow and my son pouted
all the way to school when he realized that I
was leaving the next day. So I think, like mom.
Guilt is real and it is a constant exercise. You
(29:08):
know what I mean that I know that I have
to go through and one of the things though, it
has taught me, though, Gretchen and I've really been thinking
about this. I remember I go to a conference and
I would tell a story about that that my son
was upset that I was leaving, and the women in
the room would say, well, don't worry Rushma, because he's
not going to remember. And I remember thinking to myself,
but I'm going to remember.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
So I think it's really important to figure out what
you want and what makes you happy. And it was
interesting Lori's I was listening to you. I cancel other
things before my friends. I need to be with friends.
I need that girls trip, that dinner, that plate like,
I need my girl time.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Well, as Gretchen will tell you, obliged to rebellion is
not the most rational state to be in when you
hit that point, unfortunately.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yes, yeah, but it's interesting that you articulated for yourself
in that way. And I think that's helpful. Like my
identity is I am a good friend. I show up
and when I'm weighing this versus that friendship prevails. Like
say to myself, when I'm trying to think of how
to spend my precious time, energy, or money, I should
(30:13):
always try to spend it on relationships. And that's just
like a heuristic that helps me, Like should I pay
to go to my college reunion and deal with the
hassle of making the things? Or should I stay on
that really tiresome text chain or like you were saying, Lord,
are you the one that has to bear the awkwardness
of the first want to get a copy where you
(30:34):
feel like, oh my gosh, this feels so silly. So
I think that's a really great thing. And I think
just being really spelling that out for ourselves, being very explicit,
is very helpful. And how about you, Laurie, what would
you say?
Speaker 1 (30:46):
So mine that I've been really trying to act on
myself lately is remembering that we're biased when it comes
to like connecting with other people. Right, So I often
am just going through the day and we'll have thoughts
about friends, Like yesterday, I was carrying a bag that
a friend of mine picked up on her trip to Africa.
It's this very pretty, like blue kind of like grocery
bag thing. And I was just using it to carry something,
and I just had a positive thought about my friend, right,
(31:08):
what you normally do just keep those positive thoughts to ourselves.
But of course I could have just like text her
and be like, hey, have your bag today, still enjoying it.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Just thinking of you, or like like just even sending
a photo of you holding.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You with the bag, I'm still using it. Yeah, And
so this is something I've tried to do a lot
more when I have a positive thought about a friend,
whether that's a memory or especially a gift that someone
gave you. Often you're still enjoying the gifts that someone
gave you and noticing it, but you never like remind
people right, you know, like the mug they gave you exactly,
And in fact I did. I did just this this
(31:40):
week with a friend of mine who literally gave me
a mug that I was like, I'm enjoying your mug
this morning, and it caused a conversation with a friend
I hadn't connected with, and she was like, oh, that's
so nice to hear this morning because I'm right now
sitting in palliative care with my father who's not doing well.
And then I knew about that, and had I not
texted her about the MUG, I wouldn't have known that situation.
And so whenever you have an urge to give a
(32:03):
compliment and no a moment of gratitude, a memory, thinking
of you, just send the text, just put in the call,
just drop it in the email. You feel like they
won't notice, it won't matter to them, But there's literally
studies on this that shows no, it matters more than
you think. It's less awkward than you think, it means
more to the person than you think. Our biases mean
(32:23):
we like are underreach out. But that like moment of
check in, you know, especially that story, I wouldn't have
known that something bad was happening in her life. And
now I can check in and we can reconnect and
I can be there to help in a way that
I'm so happy I get to do that, right.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
One way that I do that is I'll often, in
an idle moment, go back. I'm always sort of interested in,
like what was happening this day, eight years ago or whatever,
And it'll often surface a picture of a friend or
something that we shared, and I'll just send it to
them and I usually just say flashback. I don't even
I don't even I can't even be bothered to type
a caption, you know. But again, I think it is
(33:00):
the idea that you're present in someone else's consciousness. Yes,
they're thinking of you, they're remembering you, or like, oh,
some this equal to a movie you saw together, like
something even from the news or something like that.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Yeah, because people are going through things, so many things,
and I think knowing that someone may be thinking about them,
it's just it can shift their whole day so completely completely.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Yeah. Well, and maybe that's a good thing to remember,
which is we think about how the friendships strengthen us
and make us happier. But then you also think, well,
but they're being made happier the friend and palliative care.
You didn't even think of it, but you're making that
person happier. And so when you're planning your trip to Atlanta,
you're happier. But then your friend is happier too, and
(33:47):
so it's easy to sort of think about, what, how
is this boosting my happiness? But of course there's more
than one person involved.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Yet, and usually your perspective is wrong, right, Like when
I'm thinking like, oh, I'll text my friend because using
her bag and really appreciating it. Yeah, I'm thinking like, well,
how's that going to feel to me?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Of course she's on the other end and it's going
to hit her totally different. She's in the middle of
some random Wednesday and whatever stressor and she gets this
happy text. Right, that's surprise, which I didn't feel when
I was planning it, but she feels it on the
recipient end, and there's like, you know, just like this
warm glow that people think about this. This is something
else that some of the research shows that I've always
tried to take to heart. This is work by Nick
(34:24):
Epple and his colleagues. He finds that when we're thinking
about reaching out to someone, we tend to focus on
what he calls our competency. Am I going to write
the right text? Do I have time to not just
put like flashback and write the whole thing? Right? Am
I saying it right?
Speaker 3 (34:37):
You know?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
That's what we focus on, But our recipient doesn't see
any of that. They tend to just focus on the
warmth of it, like it's out of nowhere, this person
thought of me. It made me feel good, right, And
so sometimes our ability to do something nice for our friends,
get stuck in the competency party. Here's just another example.
I had a friend who is just he and his
wife just had a new baby, and I was like,
(34:58):
oh my gosh, it's been around since my friends were
having newborns, Like what do you do? Like, oh, you
send food? Like how do you send food or whatever?
And I was all up in my head about do
you send lasagna? Do they like lasagnya and grinala?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:09):
And then I was thinking back to Nick's research and
it was like, wait, they're not going to think about
any of that. They're not going to analyize it like
that kind of was on you. They're just gonna be like,
oh my gosh, Laurie, out of the blue, semi this
nice thing. That's so nice. And so the idea is like,
whenever you get to urge to do something nice or
to connect, don't overanalyze. They're not going to notice that.
Just dive in and do it. However you do it,
it will feel good to them.
Speaker 3 (35:29):
The other thing is you guys are talking. I think
it's also great role modeling for our kids. Yeah, Like
both me and my husband like really value friendships. People
are always in our house, like you know what I mean,
And it's good, especially when you see how much more
isolated children are becoming now because of technology, and that
when we're making the effort to go have dinner with people,
or go to the next game with somebody, or go
(35:50):
on vacation with somebody, it's just good role modeling too.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Yes, I think, yeah, no, they see that you have
a book group, they see that you're going out with yeah, right,
exactly exactly, that you're going to birthday parties. You're having
a birthday party.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
It also just makes adult life look less miserable than
when we're not like having fun with other people. I
think a lot of times kids are like me, an,
adult life is like terrible, But like when they see
us going on a trip to Miami with our girlfriends
or having that book club, it's like, oh, it's much
more palatable than that.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
Not yes, exactly, Well, listen, this is so much fun.
Lourie Reshma, thank you for talking friendship with me. I
feel elevated just having this conversation.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Thanks so much for having us on the show.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
This was so much fun. And we're new friends now.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Yeah, we're new friends now.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yes, Miami trip next week.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
That's right, that's right, let's do it. Well. We hope
you're feeling happier after this episode. Remember, the best time
to start a happiness project is twenty years ago. The
second best time is now. Yeah,
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