June 3, 2024 • 29 mins
Holding yourself to impossibly high standards is self-defeating and makes for a miserable life. Can Dr Laurie Santos find ways to tackle her constant perfectionism so she can perform better and have more fun?
She hears from researcher Thomas Curran about a worrying growth in perfectionism in society, and asks "recovering perfectionist" Jordana Confino how to tackle the nagging voice in your head telling you to always push yourself and work harder.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. As a happiness expert, I'm used to speaking pretty
openly about my own wellbeing. I often feel questions about
my mental health from journalists, fellow podcast hosts, and fans
just like you. I'm happy to share the things that
I use to improve my well being. But there is
(00:36):
one comment I sometimes get in conversations like these that
does bother me a bit. Laurie. Some interviewer will say,
I bet you never struggle when it comes to improving
your own wellbeing. I guess, is my usual answer. But
that's not strictly true. So it's time to come clean
on this one. You see. I am an expert in
(00:56):
positive psychology, and over the last few years, I have
made a lot of behavioral and mindset changes to improve
my own happiness. But there are still many many things
that I struggle with. Just ask the people who know
me best.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I think it's a really bad idea to talk about
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Why because you think I'm really bad at happiness?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
No, I think it's I think you put yourself under
under so much more pressure and feel so much worse
about it than other people.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This is Happiness Lab co writer and producer Ryan Dilly.
You don't get to hear Ryan's voice a lot on
the show, but he's the brains behind a lot of
the stuff you hear on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I've learned so much about happiness from doing this show,
and I've tried to put it into practice, But like,
I'm much nicer to myself about it than you are.
I mean, you know, you think that you have to
be better than anybody else of this because you're the teacher,
and it's just a high bar for yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
But Ryan's not just my partner in all things happiness lab.
He's also one of my oldest and dearest friends.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Isn't how we met quite a boring story. We met
through a friend of a friend.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I know that we've known each other for like twenty
six years.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
More than half my life, and that's telling it how
old I am now.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
And that means he understands my happiness struggles very very well,
because as my good friend and podcast works back, he
often has to put up with them.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
You could have put on mind too.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
When I beat myself up about some small mistake on
the show or get sad about a negative review, Ryan
gets stuck managing my emotional slump when I ignore pretty
much everything I know about the importance of time, affluence,
and totally overschedule myself. Ryan puts up with my growing
sense of overwhelm and when my stress levels hit the
red zone because I haven't put into practice nearly any
of the research I talk to you about on the show.
(02:34):
Ryan deals with the consequences.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You've got such a busy life and you've got so
much stuff going on, and so many people like look
to you as a kind of example, and that must
be really, really hard.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I really want to get better about practicing what I preach.
So in this new season of The Happiness Lab, things
are going to get personal. Over the next few episodes,
I'll be exploring the happiness challenges that I struggle with
the most, things like navigating stress and overwork, dealing with boredom,
and even facing my own mortality. This is for a
whole episode about is it a natophobia.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh, fanatophobiaobia?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Because I have really terrible an antiphobia. I'm like really
spooked about death. And in this first episode, I'll be
exploring something that bothers Ryan a lot, my habit of
continuously beating myself up about well pretty much everything.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I mean, you have to do everything perfectly. Everythden's going
to be ten out of ten with you. Sometimes it's
not possible, but it's so hard to watch. You're horrible
to yourself sometimes.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Ryan's right here. I hold myself to a very high standard,
and I constantly worry about whether I'm doing a good
enough job, whether that's in my podcasting, my teaching, my research,
my social life, everything. Really, I hate doing anything that
I'm not immediately good at, and I often wind up
feeling paralyzed whenever I mess something up. I know full
(03:55):
well that these harsh standards aren't good for my performance
or my well being. So in this episode, I'll explore
how perfectionists like me can fight the fear of not
being good enough. Is there a way we can drop
all the impossible standards and quit beating ourselves up so much?
Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to
be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What
(04:17):
if our minds are lying to us, leading us away
from what will really make us happy. The good news
is that understanding the science of the mind can point
us all back in the right direction. You're listening to
the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santis.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
My name's Thomas Current. I'm an associate professor at the
London School of Economics.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Scientists often joke that all researches mesearch, and I'm wondering
if this is something that applies in your case to
your study of perfectionism.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Absolutely, I am a perfectionist and I have been for
a long time and someone I struggled with.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
In his book The Perfection Trap Embracing the Power of
good Enough, Thomas explores the many misconceptions we have about
our society's favorite flaw, as he calls it, starting with
the idea that only certain people fall prey to it.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
We tend to talk in very sort of black and
white terms about you know you are you aren't a perfectionist,
And the truth is that most of us, when we
look in the mirror, will see elements of perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
A second misconception is that perfectionism is a single trait
that plays out the same way for everybody. It isn't.
It has at least three different dimensions, ones that differ
in their severity from person to person. The first is
self oriented perfectionism. These are the high standards that we
impose on ourselves. This is often what we're thinking of
when we say this, somebody is a perfectionist. But there's
(05:40):
a second part of perfectionism, which is other oriented. Perfectionists
sometimes hold other people to the same insanely high standards
that they expect of themselves.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Like, if I'm going to put myself through the ring
for this high standard or goal or expectation, then you
must have to do that too, because that's only fair.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
But Thomas says there's a final dimension of perfectionism that
psychologically speaking, is the most insidious, That is socially prescribed perfectionism.
We assume other people expect us to be perfect.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yes, perfectionists have exceptionally high standards, we know that, but
that's only part of the story because what we really
need to unpack is why they're doing that. And why
they're doing that is to meet the validation and approval
of other people whom they think are viewing them harshly
and watching them for every little slip up and mistake.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I know just how crappy this dimension of perfectionism feels
that constant worry that the people around you are judging
not just your work but also your worth, that sense
that I need to monitor what people think of my
podcast or my research or my looks. That uneasiness of
always being on the defensive, that feeling really sucks. But
where do perfectionist beliefs like these come from? Thomas says
(06:52):
the answer can be summed up in just one word, fear.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
The reason why we feel self conscious as perfectionists is
because we're so worried about what other people think, and
if we revealed too much of ourselves then we might
slip up, or we might show a chink in the
armory is reflection upon us as a person that we're
not good enough, that we're not perfect enough, and that
in some way we should have been or could have
been more.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
This is one reason Thomas thinks of perfectionism as less
of a personality trait and more of an anxiety management strategy.
Perfectionists set themselves incredibly high standards because they're worried if
they don't, someone will spot all they're hidden inner defects,
and as I unfortunately know very well, when perfectionists actually
do screw up, that internal anxiety goes into overdrive.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
So they feel a lot of shame and embarrassment, painful
shame and embarrassment, and intense shame and embarrassment, and the
trepidation is so fierce sometimes that they can be overwhelmed
by anxiety. And this is very common in perfectionists. They
are very self critical, very harsh on themselves when things
have gone wrong, because again, it goes back to that
(08:02):
core deficit belief inside deep down, they know they're imperfect.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
But if being a perfectionist feel so miserable, why don't
people set more realistic standards for themselves.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
People who struggle with perfectionism don't see perfectionism the problem.
Quite the opposite. Actually, they see perfectionism as the one
thing that's holding them up in the world, whereas everything
and all around them seems to be collapsing. The challenge
there is to bring people around to the awareness that
it is actually the perfectionism that is the root of
the problem. It's something that's causing profound distress.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I've seen the consequences of this distress, not just in
my own life, but also in the academic community around me.
I can be pretty harsh on myself, but I'm not
half as mean as my Yale students are to themselves.
They're hyper ambitious, hyper anxious, and deeply self critical. They
beat themselves up about not finding the perfect relationship or
an amazing internship, or getting top grades. I mean, I've
(08:58):
watched pupils have panic attacks after earning a single B
plus on some random quiz. It's heartbreaking to see that pain.
And my experience at Yale isn't unique.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I was getting a lot of students come in for
help on their coursework or their grades or how to improve.
That's quite routine, but more and more as seeing students
come with real profound struggles that quite transparently came from
self imposed pressures that they were placing on themselves. So
that was really the spark for me to try to understand, all,
is this something that's increasing? Because I suspect from what
(09:29):
I can see that it might be, but we don't
have any data.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
We don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Thomas tracked down every paper published since the eighties in
which young people had filled out a survey on perfectionism,
more than forty thousand data points across three countries to
see if rates had increased, and he found that they
very much.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Had, and that's cause for concern.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
The average level of perfectionism in the young shot up
thirty three percent since nineteen eighty nine. But there's one
form of perfectionism that's skyrocketing even more than the others.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
It's that social element of perfectionism that's really taking off
among young people. They really feel high precious to be
perfect from the outside world.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So what's pausing this. Well, culprits like Instagram and Facebook
might be to play it.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
People within social media see images are perfection all around them.
They take those images at face value and feel themselves
to be inferior. And those expectations, in turn, are being
internalized by young people's perfectionistic pressures, and it's highly pressurized,
very insecure in it never really stops.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
When Thomas first published his findings in twenty nineteen, he
was taken aback by the sheer level of interest in
the topic.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
I've got the media officer from the university desperately emailing
me at twelve o'clock at night with all these requests
from the international media. We wanting to know what's happening.
And clearly it struck a nerve. Clearly people feel like
perfectionism is something that's becoming much more prevalent in their
own lives and the lives of other people. I think
it's something you know as a society we really need
(10:59):
to start grappling.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
With But how do we all come to grips with it? Well,
we'll start by learning from a recovering perfectionist.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
My ruthless self careticism was just weighing me down that
whole time. It was like these heavy weights tied to
my ankle, and if I could learn to release them,
not only would I be just as successful as I was,
I would be even more so because I would be
liberating myself from really like the jail cell that my
terror of failure was keeping me in.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
The Happiness Lab continues after the short break, Little Jordana
was this totally wacky, free spirit creative. Jordana Confino fondly
remembers the days before her perfectionism too cold.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
I just would spend all of my time making up
shows and things like that, and just really living in
my own fantastic fantasy universe.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Little Geordana never gave a second thought to her grades
or her academic performance, but all that changed when she
turned fourteen.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
My dad actually got really sick, and all of a
sudden things started happening that were scary and upsetting, and
lots of people in my family were upset and I
couldn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
But Jordana eventually discovered one thing she could do to
make her family happier.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
I could come home with these really pristine report cards,
and my parents were excited and happy and relieved, And
that was like what I could do to seemingly make
things better.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
In the years that followed, Jordana engrossed herself in her
schoolwork and especially her grades.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
As long as I worked hard enough, I could perfect them.
And that was really what I committed to doing.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
From the outside, Jordana looked like the picture of the happy,
successful pupil, but on the inside she was a mess.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I was so sad, and I was so insecure, and
I was so lonely. And this is because if you
want to get literally perfect grief, you have spend a.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Lot, a lot, a lot of time throwing yourself into it.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
And it got to this point where my whole identity
at that point was completely bound up in my ability
to perfect this one. And so because my entire feelings
of self worth run the line, I threw everything into it.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Jordanna graduated valedictorian of her high school class. She nailed
her college applications and got into her top choice school,
Yale University. Her family and friends were thrilled, which was
kind of sad. Jordana's insanely high standards were harming her,
but her perfectionism was being reinforced and rewarded. In college,
Jordana's overwork grew even more extreme. Achieving perfect grades in
(13:37):
the IVY League was much harder than in high school,
so Jordana spent every waking hour working.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
I was the loneliest person on the planet and it
was just so tragically misguided.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
I was having no human contact.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
I didn't go outside for ten days once before final exams.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
That sense of isolation also pushed Jordana to cast a
perfectionist eye on her peers. She grew judge of her
fellow students, who never seemed to work as hard as
she did.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
My college sophomore year dorm was right across from Ashley's
ice Cream with the famous Yell ice cream place, and
I would watch people like going out for ice cream
with their friends on Friday or Saturday night, and I
would just think, like they are so weak, and like
I thought that I was so superior because I was
willing to do the work that they weren't. I must
(14:25):
care more, and therefore I would do better.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
But yet again, Jordana's harsh standards appeared to be working.
She graduated top of her class and went on to
Yale Law School.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
I mean, if five minutes went by before I was working,
after I woke up in law school, it was like,
you're weak, you're slothsful, you're lazy, you're not good enough.
You're the only one who doesn't deserve to be here.
Everyone's going to find out.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
She then graduated at the top of that class too,
and followed it up by walking in one of the
most prestigious legal clerkships in the land, but she didn't
enjoy any of it.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
With each additional achievement, I actually grew more and more
anxious because the second that I approached success or got
it all of us and I would panic because then
the bar was just set higher, and it was an
even higher bar that I would have to clear in
order to not be a disappointment.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Take for example, the time Jordana got her paper accepted
to the world's top law journal.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
There was not more than one second of actual happiness
or celebration before the panic set in and literally, the
thought that went through my mind and I remember this
was well, what am I going to do next so
that they don't call me a one hit wonder?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
The constant self criticism made or Dana miserable, but she
just couldn't bring herself to stop all those skathing critiques.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
One of thought that they were fact, and two I
thought that they were helping me and those thoughts were
the things that were driving me to succeed. And that's
why for so long I was so reluctant to give
up on those thoughts.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
The constant need to be seen as uber, competent and
superhuman meant that Jordana put herself forward for any and
all job opportunities.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
There are no boundaries for the perfectionist people. Please, aren't
you give every ounce of yourself? And what happens when
you do that is everyone else is thrilled because they're like, great,
you know, we didn't have time to do all these
things because we have families and other priorities.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
But Jordana can do it, and she's she's excited. Look
at her.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
She's volunteering. And the more and more you do that,
the more insecure you grow, because you're just convinced that
your value is contingent on you saying yes all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
But there were a few things that Jordanna did say
no to. All the stuff that's essential for work life
balance and mental health. She neglected social connection and all
elements of rest and fun. And when she did go
out to get fresh air or to get exercise, she
still couldn't set her work aside.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
I literally had a laptop tan on my thighs because
I would let myself go outside but only if I
was doing work. Similarly, I would let myself go to
the gym, but only because I downloaded the notability apps
so that I could documents.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
On the treadmill. Like this was my version of work
life balance.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
You might be amazed to learn that Jordana was in
a relationship throughout this time. Her boyfriend came a very
distant second to her legal work.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
He lived two blocks from my apartment, and I saw
him on Saturday nights between like eight pm and eight
am on the next day, and the same on Friday nights.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Jordana developed a host of serious health issues
once her doctors just couldn't figure out and what her
body was suffering was nothing compared to what was going
on in her mind.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
It just felt really bleak, and I felt really trapped.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
One afternoon, while yet again working at home alone, Jordanna
finally realized that she needed some help.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
I was just desperate at the time, and I was
googling how to be happy. One of the first things
I found was Gretchen Rubin's book The Happiness Project, and
so I read that and she starts referring to this
thing called positive psychology, and I had never heard about
positive psychology before. I remember thinking, I hope this isn't
(18:17):
one of those things that you have to really believe
in for it to work. I was so, so, so skeptical,
but I was just desperate.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Jordana soon learned about the importance of social connection and
engaging in work that fits with your values, and she
made some real changes as a result. She left the
stressful law job she didn't enjoy and retrained as a
wellness specialist to help law students.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
But I did not touch the perfectionism at that point.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I did not touch the workaholism at that point, and
I was doing work that actually imbued me with a
sense of meaning and purpose. I was leaning into my
relationships more so, in that sense, it was better, but
I was still tearing myself to shreds on the inside.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Ironically, Jordana began spending her days helping law students to
feel happier and fight their self criticism while holding herself
to impossible ideals.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Like how many people go into their job interview and
when you're asked what your weakness is, you go, oh, well,
I'm a perfectionist. When we say that, because we're proud
of it, we think that it's a strength. Eventually, someone
else noticed how hard Jordana was pushing herself. One of
my former bosses called me into her office one day,
and I thought that it was because I wasn't taking
enough student appointments.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I was convinced that she was calling in to read
me out.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
I was convinced I wasn't doing enough, and really she
was sitting me down to say, Jordana, are you okay?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
You look like you're running yourself ragged.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Jordana's therapist, it turns out, couldn't have agreed more.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
She said, Jordana, if you had a racehorse that had
just completely broken down from injury and exhaustion, would you
just keep whipping it to try to get it up
and to move faster, and I said, of course not,
And she said, then why are you doing that to yourself?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That racehorse analogy was life changing. Jordana finally saw the
futility of her perfectionism.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
It was never just going to stop.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
There was a always going to be the next thing
if I didn't do something different, because it always felt
like just clearing one more hurdle would then.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Free me up to live the life that I wanted.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
And then you know, one hundred and fifty hurdles later,
you realize, wait a second, maybe that's not going to
happen unless I do something different.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So what exactly did she do differently? She'll tell us
when the happiness lab returns in a moment.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
I think the problem with perfectionism is that it doesn't
even feel like a choice.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
It's just the necessary course.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Recovering perfectionist Jordana Confino has spent the last few years
learning to reject the exacting standards she judged herself by
for decades.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
And when I say rejected, I don't mean like, oh, yeah,
I conquered it and it's gone. I mean I committed
to work back against it every day and not let
it drive the car and rule my life.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Now, a Fordham University law professor and co coach, Jordana
helps overachieving professionals who struggle with perfectionism, overachieving professionals just
like me. I'm embarrassed to admit how much of myself
I saw in Jordana's story. I too have a terrible
time establishing boundaries and saying no. I spend my days
teaching my students and podcast listeners to be self compassionate
(21:28):
while privately beating myself up. If Jordana was able to
scale back her harsh standards, maybe there's hope for me too.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
I was so vicious to myself, and I was so
ruthlessly self critical, and I believed so little that this
could work. And if it could have that effect for
even someone like me, I truly believe that anyone is
capable of doing this for themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So I asked Jordanna, what are the first steps that
a perfectionist like me can take to become kinder to herself?
Speaker 5 (21:57):
If you do a simple thought journal of just what
are the thoughts that are going through my head? What
are the things that I'm saying to myself? For me,
it would be things like you're not good enough, you're weak,
you're lazy, you're slothful.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Literally, it was so funny.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Words like gluttonous and slothful would come up from my
inner critic, and I'm like, swear, I only have heard
those words in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in like seventh grade,
so it's just hilarious to me that they had such
an impact on my critic. But you want to recognize
these phrases. You want to think about what words do
they use, whose voice do they remind you of, so
that when they come up, you can recognize them and
(22:31):
then make a decision about how to respond to them.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Jordana also uses other creative ways to visualize her perfectionist impulses.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
So I've actually found it even really helpful to draw
my inner critic. It looks like this little green goblin
that kind of reminds me of the guy from the
Musinex commercials. So now when these thoughts come up, I
imagine this little green goblin on my shoulder like squeaking
these things at me, and my inner critic is a
very squeaky, annoying voice. But that enables me to detach
(22:59):
from the thoughts and separate from them.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And once you begin to separate from that goblin voice
inside you, you can finally start pushing back. You can
grab your journal and scribble down some bules to all
your nasty inner critiques, and when you write those replies down,
try not to match your critics mean tone. Instead, use
as compassionate a voice as you can, treating that inner
goblin like a well intentioned but utterly misguided friend.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
Listen, I know what you're trying to do here. You
really really want me to do well. You're trying to help,
but you're not. You don't meet it with criticism or
just rejected outright. You kind of greet it with compassion
and say, hey, listen, we're going to try a softer
approach here.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Pushing back on your inner critic is at least initially
very very hard, especially when it's the only voice you've
listened to for so long.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
When I first started practicing self compassion, my therapist would say,
talk to yourself as if you were someone who unconditionally
loves and supports you, And I was like, I don't
even know what that feels like.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Jordana had been driven by her punishing perfectionism through school
and into the workplace. She had to go back decades
into childhood to find a version of herself that was
free from the need to constantly perform at the highest level,
a version of herself she could be proud of and
kind to.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
And so I picture that little creative, free spirit, Jordana,
and when I look at her and when I imagine her,
I can talk to her in this way, like I
do believe that she is worthy of love for just
being who she is, and if she makes a mistake,
it is not because she is a fundamentally unworthy person.
And that was actually a really good trick for me
(24:36):
to start practicing those different ways of speaking to myself.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Hardcore perfectionists like Jordana won't find the mental switch from
criticism to compassion easy.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
I did not believe these thoughts at all. It felt
so forced and faked and phony. When I took my
you are lazy and I replaced it with you are
doing great, You can do this compassionate thoughts like that
they felt like total bogus. But the amazing thing about
our brains and neuroplasticity is that if you practice thinking
(25:07):
in a way over time, and those new thoughts will
become stronger, and you'll see them popping up versus plausible
alternatives to the vicious thoughts, and then eventually they'll just
pop up as an instinctive thought.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
The next step in perfectionism recovery is to set healthier boundaries.
That inability to say no to extra work and responsibilities
is often rooted in our fears of not being good
enough and being seen as not being good enough to
fight these people pleasing tendencies, we need to take a good,
hard look at what we miss out on when we
just say yes.
Speaker 5 (25:43):
I've now recognized that there is a trade off for
every yes. For every yes I give, I'm saying no
to something else. If I want to do the very
best at multiple things that are important to me, I
can't just keep saying yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But what are the practical steps we can use to
turn a yes into a no. It begins with asking
yourself specific questions whenever you're attempted to sign on to
something new. What cost will agreeing to this task have
on the people I care about? And what am I
saying no to with my yes? But we also need
to explore the reasons we're tempted to say yes to
a potential ask in the first place.
Speaker 5 (26:21):
Why do I want to do this? Is my desire
to do this thing driven by my values? Or is
it driven by fear?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Jordana says questions like these have helped her remember the
social opportunity cost of taking on too much, a problem
she had ignored for decades.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
Told that it took earn the people that I love
the most is that they just got the leftovers. They
would get the shadow version of me once I had
given all that I had to give to other people.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
The boyfriend Giordana devoted so little time to during her
clerkship is now her husband, and so to prevent her
old perfectionist instincts from harming her and her loved ones,
Jordana now uses a timeout strategy whenever she gets a
new request.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
So I'm no longer allowed to just respond immediately. I
have to wait at least two hours. During that period,
I ask myself, one, do I actually want to do this?
Is this something that's driven by excitement or by fear?
To What am I giving up if I say yes
to this?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Jordana now says yes only to projects that improve her happiness,
and that's made the work she's done over the last
few years much more fulfilling.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
It turns out that you're much better at your work
when you're not like beating the crap out of yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
But for all her progress, Jordana knows her inner goblin
voices haven't been banished entirely.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
Again, this is why my blog is called Chronicles of
a Recovering Type A plus perfectionist. It's a daily practice
of keeping them in check. But that act of keeping
them in check is Oh, It's just makes such a
world of difference in terms of your ability to live
your life in a joyful way.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I wish I could say that making this episode has
fully cured me of all my own harsh standards, but sadly,
perfectionism recovery doesn't.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Work that quickly.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
But there are at least some people who I've noticed
that I've been making some progress.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I think you're doing much much better. I mean, I'm
just glad you've kind of confronted it, I mean, bring
a name to it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Even since chatting with Jordanna, I have begun noticing all
the mean stuff I say inside my head, and I've
totally taken on her suggestion to the social opportunity costs
of my usual anxious yeses. These new strategies have begun
helping me to set new boundaries, which has made a
huge difference in my sense of overwhelm.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
You'll always be a bit of a perfectionist, by at
least you're dealing with it now, which is like, so
much better than before.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Making this episode has also given me a healthier attitude
as I turned to the other happiness challenges I'll face
this season. I've promised myself that I won't go all
perfectionist when it comes to addressing my well being struggles
over the next few episodes, because as much as we'd
love it, change doesn't happen overnight. But with the right strategies,
hopefully we can all start taking some compassionate steps in
(29:05):
the right direction. In the next episode, I'll tackle another
factor that I struggle with, the act of not doing stuff.
Will explore why a constant workaholic like me should embrace
the power of boredom. We'll hear about the benefits of
feeling bored and learn some strategies for enjoying our empty
moments in a healthier way. You answer these statements from
(29:25):
one highly disagree to seven I really agree. In situations
where I have to wait, such as in a line,
I get very restless. It seems that the same things
are on television or movies all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Seven that one be sure.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I am good at waiting patiently.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
One pretty bad.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
All that next time on the Happiness Lab with me,
Doctor Laurie Santos
Pushkin. As a happiness expert, I'm used to speaking pretty
openly about my own wellbeing. I often feel questions about
my mental health from journalists, fellow podcast hosts, and fans
just like you. I'm happy to share the things that
I use to improve my well being. But there is
(00:36):
one comment I sometimes get in conversations like these that
does bother me a bit. Laurie. Some interviewer will say,
I bet you never struggle when it comes to improving
your own wellbeing. I guess, is my usual answer. But
that's not strictly true. So it's time to come clean
on this one. You see. I am an expert in
(00:56):
positive psychology, and over the last few years, I have
made a lot of behavioral and mindset changes to improve
my own happiness. But there are still many many things
that I struggle with. Just ask the people who know
me best.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
I think it's a really bad idea to talk about
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Why because you think I'm really bad at happiness?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
No, I think it's I think you put yourself under
under so much more pressure and feel so much worse
about it than other people.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This is Happiness Lab co writer and producer Ryan Dilly.
You don't get to hear Ryan's voice a lot on
the show, but he's the brains behind a lot of
the stuff you hear on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I've learned so much about happiness from doing this show,
and I've tried to put it into practice, But like,
I'm much nicer to myself about it than you are.
I mean, you know, you think that you have to
be better than anybody else of this because you're the teacher,
and it's just a high bar for yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
But Ryan's not just my partner in all things happiness lab.
He's also one of my oldest and dearest friends.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Isn't how we met quite a boring story. We met
through a friend of a friend.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
I know that we've known each other for like twenty
six years.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
More than half my life, and that's telling it how
old I am now.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
And that means he understands my happiness struggles very very well,
because as my good friend and podcast works back, he
often has to put up with them.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
You could have put on mind too.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
When I beat myself up about some small mistake on
the show or get sad about a negative review, Ryan
gets stuck managing my emotional slump when I ignore pretty
much everything I know about the importance of time, affluence,
and totally overschedule myself. Ryan puts up with my growing
sense of overwhelm and when my stress levels hit the
red zone because I haven't put into practice nearly any
of the research I talk to you about on the show.
(02:34):
Ryan deals with the consequences.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You've got such a busy life and you've got so
much stuff going on, and so many people like look
to you as a kind of example, and that must
be really, really hard.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
I really want to get better about practicing what I preach.
So in this new season of The Happiness Lab, things
are going to get personal. Over the next few episodes,
I'll be exploring the happiness challenges that I struggle with
the most, things like navigating stress and overwork, dealing with boredom,
and even facing my own mortality. This is for a
whole episode about is it a natophobia.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Oh, fanatophobiaobia?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Because I have really terrible an antiphobia. I'm like really
spooked about death. And in this first episode, I'll be
exploring something that bothers Ryan a lot, my habit of
continuously beating myself up about well pretty much everything.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
I mean, you have to do everything perfectly. Everythden's going
to be ten out of ten with you. Sometimes it's
not possible, but it's so hard to watch. You're horrible
to yourself sometimes.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
Ryan's right here. I hold myself to a very high standard,
and I constantly worry about whether I'm doing a good
enough job, whether that's in my podcasting, my teaching, my research,
my social life, everything. Really, I hate doing anything that
I'm not immediately good at, and I often wind up
feeling paralyzed whenever I mess something up. I know full
(03:55):
well that these harsh standards aren't good for my performance
or my well being. So in this episode, I'll explore
how perfectionists like me can fight the fear of not
being good enough. Is there a way we can drop
all the impossible standards and quit beating ourselves up so much?
Our minds are constantly telling us what to do to
be happy. But what if our minds are wrong? What
(04:17):
if our minds are lying to us, leading us away
from what will really make us happy. The good news
is that understanding the science of the mind can point
us all back in the right direction. You're listening to
the Happiness Lab with doctor Laurie Santis.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
My name's Thomas Current. I'm an associate professor at the
London School of Economics.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Scientists often joke that all researches mesearch, and I'm wondering
if this is something that applies in your case to
your study of perfectionism.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Absolutely, I am a perfectionist and I have been for
a long time and someone I struggled with.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
In his book The Perfection Trap Embracing the Power of
good Enough, Thomas explores the many misconceptions we have about
our society's favorite flaw, as he calls it, starting with
the idea that only certain people fall prey to it.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
We tend to talk in very sort of black and
white terms about you know you are you aren't a perfectionist,
And the truth is that most of us, when we
look in the mirror, will see elements of perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
A second misconception is that perfectionism is a single trait
that plays out the same way for everybody. It isn't.
It has at least three different dimensions, ones that differ
in their severity from person to person. The first is
self oriented perfectionism. These are the high standards that we
impose on ourselves. This is often what we're thinking of
when we say this, somebody is a perfectionist. But there's
(05:40):
a second part of perfectionism, which is other oriented. Perfectionists
sometimes hold other people to the same insanely high standards
that they expect of themselves.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
Like, if I'm going to put myself through the ring
for this high standard or goal or expectation, then you
must have to do that too, because that's only fair.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
But Thomas says there's a final dimension of perfectionism that
psychologically speaking, is the most insidious, That is socially prescribed perfectionism.
We assume other people expect us to be perfect.
Speaker 4 (06:12):
Yes, perfectionists have exceptionally high standards, we know that, but
that's only part of the story because what we really
need to unpack is why they're doing that. And why
they're doing that is to meet the validation and approval
of other people whom they think are viewing them harshly
and watching them for every little slip up and mistake.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I know just how crappy this dimension of perfectionism feels
that constant worry that the people around you are judging
not just your work but also your worth, that sense
that I need to monitor what people think of my
podcast or my research or my looks. That uneasiness of
always being on the defensive, that feeling really sucks. But
where do perfectionist beliefs like these come from? Thomas says
(06:52):
the answer can be summed up in just one word, fear.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
The reason why we feel self conscious as perfectionists is
because we're so worried about what other people think, and
if we revealed too much of ourselves then we might
slip up, or we might show a chink in the
armory is reflection upon us as a person that we're
not good enough, that we're not perfect enough, and that
in some way we should have been or could have
been more.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
This is one reason Thomas thinks of perfectionism as less
of a personality trait and more of an anxiety management strategy.
Perfectionists set themselves incredibly high standards because they're worried if
they don't, someone will spot all they're hidden inner defects,
and as I unfortunately know very well, when perfectionists actually
do screw up, that internal anxiety goes into overdrive.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
So they feel a lot of shame and embarrassment, painful
shame and embarrassment, and intense shame and embarrassment, and the
trepidation is so fierce sometimes that they can be overwhelmed
by anxiety. And this is very common in perfectionists. They
are very self critical, very harsh on themselves when things
have gone wrong, because again, it goes back to that
(08:02):
core deficit belief inside deep down, they know they're imperfect.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
But if being a perfectionist feel so miserable, why don't
people set more realistic standards for themselves.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
People who struggle with perfectionism don't see perfectionism the problem.
Quite the opposite. Actually, they see perfectionism as the one
thing that's holding them up in the world, whereas everything
and all around them seems to be collapsing. The challenge
there is to bring people around to the awareness that
it is actually the perfectionism that is the root of
the problem. It's something that's causing profound distress.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
I've seen the consequences of this distress, not just in
my own life, but also in the academic community around me.
I can be pretty harsh on myself, but I'm not
half as mean as my Yale students are to themselves.
They're hyper ambitious, hyper anxious, and deeply self critical. They
beat themselves up about not finding the perfect relationship or
an amazing internship, or getting top grades. I mean, I've
(08:58):
watched pupils have panic attacks after earning a single B
plus on some random quiz. It's heartbreaking to see that pain.
And my experience at Yale isn't unique.
Speaker 4 (09:07):
I was getting a lot of students come in for
help on their coursework or their grades or how to improve.
That's quite routine, but more and more as seeing students
come with real profound struggles that quite transparently came from
self imposed pressures that they were placing on themselves. So
that was really the spark for me to try to understand, all,
is this something that's increasing? Because I suspect from what
(09:29):
I can see that it might be, but we don't
have any data.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
We don't know.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Thomas tracked down every paper published since the eighties in
which young people had filled out a survey on perfectionism,
more than forty thousand data points across three countries to
see if rates had increased, and he found that they
very much.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Had, and that's cause for concern.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
The average level of perfectionism in the young shot up
thirty three percent since nineteen eighty nine. But there's one
form of perfectionism that's skyrocketing even more than the others.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
It's that social element of perfectionism that's really taking off
among young people. They really feel high precious to be
perfect from the outside world.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
So what's pausing this. Well, culprits like Instagram and Facebook
might be to play it.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
People within social media see images are perfection all around them.
They take those images at face value and feel themselves
to be inferior. And those expectations, in turn, are being
internalized by young people's perfectionistic pressures, and it's highly pressurized,
very insecure in it never really stops.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
When Thomas first published his findings in twenty nineteen, he
was taken aback by the sheer level of interest in
the topic.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
I've got the media officer from the university desperately emailing
me at twelve o'clock at night with all these requests
from the international media. We wanting to know what's happening.
And clearly it struck a nerve. Clearly people feel like
perfectionism is something that's becoming much more prevalent in their
own lives and the lives of other people. I think
it's something you know as a society we really need
(10:59):
to start grappling.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
With But how do we all come to grips with it? Well,
we'll start by learning from a recovering perfectionist.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
My ruthless self careticism was just weighing me down that
whole time. It was like these heavy weights tied to
my ankle, and if I could learn to release them,
not only would I be just as successful as I was,
I would be even more so because I would be
liberating myself from really like the jail cell that my
terror of failure was keeping me in.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
The Happiness Lab continues after the short break, Little Jordana
was this totally wacky, free spirit creative. Jordana Confino fondly
remembers the days before her perfectionism too cold.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
I just would spend all of my time making up
shows and things like that, and just really living in
my own fantastic fantasy universe.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
Little Geordana never gave a second thought to her grades
or her academic performance, but all that changed when she
turned fourteen.
Speaker 5 (12:05):
My dad actually got really sick, and all of a
sudden things started happening that were scary and upsetting, and
lots of people in my family were upset and I
couldn't do anything about it.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
But Jordana eventually discovered one thing she could do to
make her family happier.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
I could come home with these really pristine report cards,
and my parents were excited and happy and relieved, And
that was like what I could do to seemingly make
things better.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
In the years that followed, Jordana engrossed herself in her
schoolwork and especially her grades.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
As long as I worked hard enough, I could perfect them.
And that was really what I committed to doing.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
From the outside, Jordana looked like the picture of the happy,
successful pupil, but on the inside she was a mess.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
I was so sad, and I was so insecure, and
I was so lonely. And this is because if you
want to get literally perfect grief, you have spend a.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Lot, a lot, a lot of time throwing yourself into it.
Speaker 5 (13:01):
And it got to this point where my whole identity
at that point was completely bound up in my ability
to perfect this one. And so because my entire feelings
of self worth run the line, I threw everything into it.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Jordanna graduated valedictorian of her high school class. She nailed
her college applications and got into her top choice school,
Yale University. Her family and friends were thrilled, which was
kind of sad. Jordana's insanely high standards were harming her,
but her perfectionism was being reinforced and rewarded. In college,
Jordana's overwork grew even more extreme. Achieving perfect grades in
(13:37):
the IVY League was much harder than in high school,
so Jordana spent every waking hour working.
Speaker 5 (13:43):
I was the loneliest person on the planet and it
was just so tragically misguided.
Speaker 3 (13:48):
I was having no human contact.
Speaker 5 (13:50):
I didn't go outside for ten days once before final exams.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
That sense of isolation also pushed Jordana to cast a
perfectionist eye on her peers. She grew judge of her
fellow students, who never seemed to work as hard as
she did.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
My college sophomore year dorm was right across from Ashley's
ice Cream with the famous Yell ice cream place, and
I would watch people like going out for ice cream
with their friends on Friday or Saturday night, and I
would just think, like they are so weak, and like
I thought that I was so superior because I was
willing to do the work that they weren't. I must
(14:25):
care more, and therefore I would do better.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
But yet again, Jordana's harsh standards appeared to be working.
She graduated top of her class and went on to
Yale Law School.
Speaker 5 (14:36):
I mean, if five minutes went by before I was working,
after I woke up in law school, it was like,
you're weak, you're slothsful, you're lazy, you're not good enough.
You're the only one who doesn't deserve to be here.
Everyone's going to find out.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
She then graduated at the top of that class too,
and followed it up by walking in one of the
most prestigious legal clerkships in the land, but she didn't
enjoy any of it.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
With each additional achievement, I actually grew more and more
anxious because the second that I approached success or got
it all of us and I would panic because then
the bar was just set higher, and it was an
even higher bar that I would have to clear in
order to not be a disappointment.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
Take for example, the time Jordana got her paper accepted
to the world's top law journal.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
There was not more than one second of actual happiness
or celebration before the panic set in and literally, the
thought that went through my mind and I remember this
was well, what am I going to do next so
that they don't call me a one hit wonder?
Speaker 1 (15:38):
The constant self criticism made or Dana miserable, but she
just couldn't bring herself to stop all those skathing critiques.
Speaker 5 (15:45):
One of thought that they were fact, and two I
thought that they were helping me and those thoughts were
the things that were driving me to succeed. And that's
why for so long I was so reluctant to give
up on those thoughts.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
The constant need to be seen as uber, competent and
superhuman meant that Jordana put herself forward for any and
all job opportunities.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
There are no boundaries for the perfectionist people. Please, aren't
you give every ounce of yourself? And what happens when
you do that is everyone else is thrilled because they're like, great,
you know, we didn't have time to do all these
things because we have families and other priorities.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
But Jordana can do it, and she's she's excited. Look
at her.
Speaker 5 (16:26):
She's volunteering. And the more and more you do that,
the more insecure you grow, because you're just convinced that
your value is contingent on you saying yes all the time.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
But there were a few things that Jordanna did say
no to. All the stuff that's essential for work life
balance and mental health. She neglected social connection and all
elements of rest and fun. And when she did go
out to get fresh air or to get exercise, she
still couldn't set her work aside.
Speaker 5 (16:55):
I literally had a laptop tan on my thighs because
I would let myself go outside but only if I
was doing work. Similarly, I would let myself go to
the gym, but only because I downloaded the notability apps
so that I could documents.
Speaker 3 (17:10):
On the treadmill. Like this was my version of work
life balance.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
You might be amazed to learn that Jordana was in
a relationship throughout this time. Her boyfriend came a very
distant second to her legal work.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
He lived two blocks from my apartment, and I saw
him on Saturday nights between like eight pm and eight
am on the next day, and the same on Friday nights.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Jordana developed a host of serious health issues
once her doctors just couldn't figure out and what her
body was suffering was nothing compared to what was going
on in her mind.
Speaker 5 (17:43):
It just felt really bleak, and I felt really trapped.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
One afternoon, while yet again working at home alone, Jordanna
finally realized that she needed some help.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
I was just desperate at the time, and I was
googling how to be happy. One of the first things
I found was Gretchen Rubin's book The Happiness Project, and
so I read that and she starts referring to this
thing called positive psychology, and I had never heard about
positive psychology before. I remember thinking, I hope this isn't
(18:17):
one of those things that you have to really believe
in for it to work. I was so, so, so skeptical,
but I was just desperate.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Jordana soon learned about the importance of social connection and
engaging in work that fits with your values, and she
made some real changes as a result. She left the
stressful law job she didn't enjoy and retrained as a
wellness specialist to help law students.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
But I did not touch the perfectionism at that point.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I did not touch the workaholism at that point, and
I was doing work that actually imbued me with a
sense of meaning and purpose. I was leaning into my
relationships more so, in that sense, it was better, but
I was still tearing myself to shreds on the inside.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Ironically, Jordana began spending her days helping law students to
feel happier and fight their self criticism while holding herself
to impossible ideals.
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Like how many people go into their job interview and
when you're asked what your weakness is, you go, oh, well,
I'm a perfectionist. When we say that, because we're proud
of it, we think that it's a strength. Eventually, someone
else noticed how hard Jordana was pushing herself. One of
my former bosses called me into her office one day,
and I thought that it was because I wasn't taking
enough student appointments.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
I was convinced that she was calling in to read
me out.
Speaker 5 (19:30):
I was convinced I wasn't doing enough, and really she
was sitting me down to say, Jordana, are you okay?
Speaker 3 (19:36):
You look like you're running yourself ragged.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Jordana's therapist, it turns out, couldn't have agreed more.
Speaker 5 (19:41):
She said, Jordana, if you had a racehorse that had
just completely broken down from injury and exhaustion, would you
just keep whipping it to try to get it up
and to move faster, and I said, of course not,
And she said, then why are you doing that to yourself?
Speaker 1 (20:00):
That racehorse analogy was life changing. Jordana finally saw the
futility of her perfectionism.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
It was never just going to stop.
Speaker 5 (20:08):
There was a always going to be the next thing
if I didn't do something different, because it always felt
like just clearing one more hurdle would then.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Free me up to live the life that I wanted.
Speaker 5 (20:22):
And then you know, one hundred and fifty hurdles later,
you realize, wait a second, maybe that's not going to
happen unless I do something different.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
So what exactly did she do differently? She'll tell us
when the happiness lab returns in a moment.
Speaker 5 (20:40):
I think the problem with perfectionism is that it doesn't
even feel like a choice.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
It's just the necessary course.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Recovering perfectionist Jordana Confino has spent the last few years
learning to reject the exacting standards she judged herself by
for decades.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
And when I say rejected, I don't mean like, oh, yeah,
I conquered it and it's gone. I mean I committed
to work back against it every day and not let
it drive the car and rule my life.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Now, a Fordham University law professor and co coach, Jordana
helps overachieving professionals who struggle with perfectionism, overachieving professionals just
like me. I'm embarrassed to admit how much of myself
I saw in Jordana's story. I too have a terrible
time establishing boundaries and saying no. I spend my days
teaching my students and podcast listeners to be self compassionate
(21:28):
while privately beating myself up. If Jordana was able to
scale back her harsh standards, maybe there's hope for me too.
Speaker 5 (21:35):
I was so vicious to myself, and I was so
ruthlessly self critical, and I believed so little that this
could work. And if it could have that effect for
even someone like me, I truly believe that anyone is
capable of doing this for themselves.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
So I asked Jordanna, what are the first steps that
a perfectionist like me can take to become kinder to herself?
Speaker 5 (21:57):
If you do a simple thought journal of just what
are the thoughts that are going through my head? What
are the things that I'm saying to myself? For me,
it would be things like you're not good enough, you're weak,
you're lazy, you're slothful.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Literally, it was so funny.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Words like gluttonous and slothful would come up from my
inner critic, and I'm like, swear, I only have heard
those words in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in like seventh grade,
so it's just hilarious to me that they had such
an impact on my critic. But you want to recognize
these phrases. You want to think about what words do
they use, whose voice do they remind you of, so
that when they come up, you can recognize them and
(22:31):
then make a decision about how to respond to them.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Jordana also uses other creative ways to visualize her perfectionist impulses.
Speaker 5 (22:38):
So I've actually found it even really helpful to draw
my inner critic. It looks like this little green goblin
that kind of reminds me of the guy from the
Musinex commercials. So now when these thoughts come up, I
imagine this little green goblin on my shoulder like squeaking
these things at me, and my inner critic is a
very squeaky, annoying voice. But that enables me to detach
(22:59):
from the thoughts and separate from them.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
And once you begin to separate from that goblin voice
inside you, you can finally start pushing back. You can
grab your journal and scribble down some bules to all
your nasty inner critiques, and when you write those replies down,
try not to match your critics mean tone. Instead, use
as compassionate a voice as you can, treating that inner
goblin like a well intentioned but utterly misguided friend.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
Listen, I know what you're trying to do here. You
really really want me to do well. You're trying to help,
but you're not. You don't meet it with criticism or
just rejected outright. You kind of greet it with compassion
and say, hey, listen, we're going to try a softer
approach here.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Pushing back on your inner critic is at least initially
very very hard, especially when it's the only voice you've
listened to for so long.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
When I first started practicing self compassion, my therapist would say,
talk to yourself as if you were someone who unconditionally
loves and supports you, And I was like, I don't
even know what that feels like.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Jordana had been driven by her punishing perfectionism through school
and into the workplace. She had to go back decades
into childhood to find a version of herself that was
free from the need to constantly perform at the highest level,
a version of herself she could be proud of and
kind to.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
And so I picture that little creative, free spirit, Jordana,
and when I look at her and when I imagine her,
I can talk to her in this way, like I
do believe that she is worthy of love for just
being who she is, and if she makes a mistake,
it is not because she is a fundamentally unworthy person.
And that was actually a really good trick for me
(24:36):
to start practicing those different ways of speaking to myself.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Hardcore perfectionists like Jordana won't find the mental switch from
criticism to compassion easy.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
I did not believe these thoughts at all. It felt
so forced and faked and phony. When I took my
you are lazy and I replaced it with you are
doing great, You can do this compassionate thoughts like that
they felt like total bogus. But the amazing thing about
our brains and neuroplasticity is that if you practice thinking
(25:07):
in a way over time, and those new thoughts will
become stronger, and you'll see them popping up versus plausible
alternatives to the vicious thoughts, and then eventually they'll just
pop up as an instinctive thought.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
The next step in perfectionism recovery is to set healthier boundaries.
That inability to say no to extra work and responsibilities
is often rooted in our fears of not being good
enough and being seen as not being good enough to
fight these people pleasing tendencies, we need to take a good,
hard look at what we miss out on when we
just say yes.
Speaker 5 (25:43):
I've now recognized that there is a trade off for
every yes. For every yes I give, I'm saying no
to something else. If I want to do the very
best at multiple things that are important to me, I
can't just keep saying yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
But what are the practical steps we can use to
turn a yes into a no. It begins with asking
yourself specific questions whenever you're attempted to sign on to
something new. What cost will agreeing to this task have
on the people I care about? And what am I
saying no to with my yes? But we also need
to explore the reasons we're tempted to say yes to
a potential ask in the first place.
Speaker 5 (26:21):
Why do I want to do this? Is my desire
to do this thing driven by my values? Or is
it driven by fear?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Jordana says questions like these have helped her remember the
social opportunity cost of taking on too much, a problem
she had ignored for decades.
Speaker 5 (26:38):
Told that it took earn the people that I love
the most is that they just got the leftovers. They
would get the shadow version of me once I had
given all that I had to give to other people.
Speaker 1 (26:50):
The boyfriend Giordana devoted so little time to during her
clerkship is now her husband, and so to prevent her
old perfectionist instincts from harming her and her loved ones,
Jordana now uses a timeout strategy whenever she gets a
new request.
Speaker 5 (27:04):
So I'm no longer allowed to just respond immediately. I
have to wait at least two hours. During that period,
I ask myself, one, do I actually want to do this?
Is this something that's driven by excitement or by fear?
To What am I giving up if I say yes
to this?
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Jordana now says yes only to projects that improve her happiness,
and that's made the work she's done over the last
few years much more fulfilling.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
It turns out that you're much better at your work
when you're not like beating the crap out of yourself.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
But for all her progress, Jordana knows her inner goblin
voices haven't been banished entirely.
Speaker 5 (27:37):
Again, this is why my blog is called Chronicles of
a Recovering Type A plus perfectionist. It's a daily practice
of keeping them in check. But that act of keeping
them in check is Oh, It's just makes such a
world of difference in terms of your ability to live
your life in a joyful way.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
I wish I could say that making this episode has
fully cured me of all my own harsh standards, but sadly,
perfectionism recovery doesn't.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Work that quickly.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
But there are at least some people who I've noticed
that I've been making some progress.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
I think you're doing much much better. I mean, I'm
just glad you've kind of confronted it, I mean, bring
a name to it.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Even since chatting with Jordanna, I have begun noticing all
the mean stuff I say inside my head, and I've
totally taken on her suggestion to the social opportunity costs
of my usual anxious yeses. These new strategies have begun
helping me to set new boundaries, which has made a
huge difference in my sense of overwhelm.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
You'll always be a bit of a perfectionist, by at
least you're dealing with it now, which is like, so
much better than before.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Making this episode has also given me a healthier attitude
as I turned to the other happiness challenges I'll face
this season. I've promised myself that I won't go all
perfectionist when it comes to addressing my well being struggles
over the next few episodes, because as much as we'd
love it, change doesn't happen overnight. But with the right strategies,
hopefully we can all start taking some compassionate steps in
(29:05):
the right direction. In the next episode, I'll tackle another
factor that I struggle with, the act of not doing stuff.
Will explore why a constant workaholic like me should embrace
the power of boredom. We'll hear about the benefits of
feeling bored and learn some strategies for enjoying our empty
moments in a healthier way. You answer these statements from
(29:25):
one highly disagree to seven I really agree. In situations
where I have to wait, such as in a line,
I get very restless. It seems that the same things
are on television or movies all the time.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Seven that one be sure.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I am good at waiting patiently.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
One pretty bad.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
All that next time on the Happiness Lab with me,
Doctor Laurie Santos
Popular Podcasts
1. Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
2. Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
3. Crime Junkie
If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people.