November 27, 2024 • 45 mins
In this Australian exclusive with New York Times bestselling author and internationally acclaimed guru Deepak Chopra - Clare Stephens puts her signature “But Are You Happy” questions to the pioneer of new age spirituality himself. We know Deepak Chopra is peaceful…but is he happy? Did he grow up in a happy family?
Clare and Deepak Chopra also dive deep into his most recent book - Digital Dharma: How AI Can Elevate Spiritual Intelligence and Personal Well-Being - where Chopra takes a much more optimistic view of the greatest technological advancement of our lifetime. Not only does he not believe we should be afraid of Artificial Intelligence, he believes it can assist us to be more spiritual, more connected and more attuned to our life’s purpose.
You can follow Deepak Chopra and learn more about his “Digital Deepak” avatar here.
You can find his book, Digital Dharma, here.
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CREDITS:
Host: Clare Stephens
Guest: Deepak Chopra
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma May I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
A knife can be used to kill a person, but
in the surgeon's hands, a knife heels. A hammer can
be used to also knock somebody on the head, but
in a carpenter's hands. It's an amazing too.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast
that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire
Stevens and today's episode is a particularly special one. We
have the Australian exclusive for a long form podcast interview
with New York Times best selling author an internationally acclaimed guru,
(01:06):
Deepak Chopra. I can almost guarantee that, so where deep
in the abyss of your phone photos you have a
screenshot of a Deepak Chopper quote, or there is some
piece of wisdom of his that you have tried to
pass off as your own, thinking that you're actually quite
clever and profound when you really just heard his words
(01:27):
at some point. Over the last few decades, he has
long been known as a pioneer of New Age spirituality,
and he has long advocated for the benefits of meditation.
He encourages people to expand their awareness and their consciousness,
to really feel the awe of the mystery of our existence,
(01:51):
to see obstacles as opportunities in disguise, and to pursue
above anything, including happiness a sense of inner peace. Now,
I am very much on the record as not being
a very woo woo person, and I often flinch at
(02:12):
anything that isn't based in hard science. I can think
that it's a bit flimsy, a bit silly. I sometimes
look at ideas like manifestation and I think that they
haven't been interrogated enough. I have a bit of a
visceral reaction to it. And some of Chopper's ideas about
(02:37):
alternative medicine are quite controversial, but this interview wasn't about
discussing them. The truth is, I opened Deepak Chopper's most
recent book, which is called Digital Drama, How AI Can
Elevate Spiritual intelligence and Personal well Being, and I could
(02:58):
not stop reading. Maybe this book and these ideas came
to me at the exact right time, which I'm sure
is a sentiment that Deepak Chopper would agree with. He's
a big propose in their being meaning in these sorts
of things. But his ideas about purpose and having a
(03:18):
path and his optimism about AI, which is the thing
that is just going to change the future of humanity
in the immediate future, those ideas were utterly compelling and
I just kept reading. So here is my conversation with
(03:39):
the man who's written over eighty books that have been
translated into over forty languages, so his ideas are just
known all throughout the world. He's been interviewed by Oprah,
so maybe that was the second best interview that he's
ever had after me Ah. He has taught Madonna how
to meditate, and he has informed how so many of
(04:01):
us have come to think about our own well being,
satisfaction and happiness. He is deepact Chopra Deepak. I always
begin this show by asking our guests the same question,
which is did you grow up in a happy family
and was happiness prioritized?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I did grow up in a very happy family. My
father was an army doctor, my mother was a storyteller,
and they were always celebrative about everything, looked at every
challenge as an opportunity, and enjoyed life basically, do.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You remember as a kid or an adolescent having any
challenges to happiness. Do you remember was there anything that
you found you contended with in terms of well being
or satisfaction or finding meaning.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
As I mentioned, my mother was a storyteller, and every
time before she put me to bed, she would actually
sometimes sing or read a story and then stop it
at what we call a cliffhanger. Everything was going wrong,
(05:23):
and then she would say, I wanted to dream up
the rest of the story, make sure it has a
happy ending, and also make sure it's a love story.
So I got to reframe every challenge as a love
story with a happy ending. So the answer is short
answer is no, Oh.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
That's beautiful. That gives me. I've got a ten month
old daughter, and that gives me a good idea for
what to do before she goes to better she grows up.
You've recently released a book called Digital Dama, How AI
can Elevate spiritual intelligence and personal well being, and it
is perhaps the most hopeful exploration of AI that I
(06:06):
have read, and it essentially presents a case of how
AI I can help us live happier lives. You write
in the book Human happiness cannot be reduced to a formula,
and happiness is as dynamic as life itself, which is
exactly what this podcast is kind of based on and
what we've seen through every interview we've ever done. You
(06:29):
turn to the idea of a personal dama instead of
kind of focusing on the term happiness. Can you explain
what personal dama is and how it works.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, the closest equivalent of the herma in the West,
because there's no such term in the West. It's a
very Eastern. Going back to Yogic philosophy, So think of
the If you've ever heard of the seven chakras, you
know in yoga they represent seven levels of human need
(07:05):
and expression. So the first one that has to do
with security, safety, the second has to do with sensual delight,
including sexual delight, The third has to do with transformation,
the fourth has to do with love and belonging, the
fifth has to do with creative expression, the sixth has
(07:27):
to do with insight and intuition and imagination and heart consciousness,
and the seventh has to do with enlightenment or transcendence.
So dharma would mean literally fulfilling all these human aspirations
and needs. The closest summary of that would be Joseph
(07:50):
Campbell's phrase, follow your bliss. When you're following your bliss,
then you're in dharmah it how you fit into the
whole scheme of things.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, and when you look at Western culture, do you
think you can see that people aren't following their personal dharma.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Western culture has mostly focused on material success and the
idea that if you have lots of money, then you
will be a happy person and you'll also be fulfilled,
so that becomes the defining purpose of life. Now, when
(08:30):
you look at that data, only ten percent to twelve
percent of your daily happiness experience comes from money or
what we call material success prestige. And you know, people
confuse their self esteem with the net worth. They think
net worth is self worth. But if you look at
(08:52):
the data, about ten to twelve percent of our daily
happiness experience comes from that. If someone wins the lottery,
for example, they'll be ecstatic in the beginning, but then
in six months they begin to plateau, and in one
year they're back to where they were before they won
the lottery. Five years that are actually more unhappy than
(09:14):
they were before because that becomes their identity. Money becomes
their identity, or material success becomes their identity, and all
the other things I mentioned are in the background. So
there's no fulfillment. There's temporary pleasure and happiness, and that's
a big difference between pleasure, happiness, joy, peace. These are
(09:40):
different levels of fulfillment. So ultimately, if you don't have peace,
then what good is pleasure? Or if you have happiness,
But it's always around the corner. If I get this,
I'll be happier. If I have the right relationship, the
right amount of money, the right job, I'll be happier.
(10:01):
The answer is yeah, probably to a little extent, but
then you'll be asking yourself what's next, or you'll be
concerned that you might lose what you have. So ultimately,
through happiness or joy only comes from getting in touch
with their spiritual identity.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Do you feel like, through all your decades of learning
about this and writing about it and speaking to people
about it, do you think you can tell when somebody
is or is not in their personal DAMA from the outside.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I think nineteen nine percent or not, so I don't
have to guess. Yeah, everybody's walking around like a biological robot.
They take their existence for granted, and they recycle their
cultural and social and family conditioning. So every generation is
(10:58):
recycling the previous generation, and the conditioning is deep. It's economic,
it's cultural, it's social, it's religious, it's ethnic. So very
few people even have the idea of what's my purpose?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I think, I think you're right, But I was
gonna ask, do you think I'm in my personal dumbit
The answer is no, so you don't even have to
try and answer yes. Great, great point. I like that answer.
You're essentially asking in this book, can AI act as
(11:36):
a guru or a guide? And in Indian tradition, spiritual
journeys required a guide. But you point out in the
book that there's a modern problem with this idea in
that being a guru comes with the cult of personality.
I think we've also seen that there are so many
times when being a guru corrupts a person with power.
(11:59):
You know, it gives them all this power and they
don't necessarily use it in a good way. So your
suggestion is that AI can fill this role with kind
of no ego in this context, can you explain what
AI is and how you think of it in this
(12:20):
optimistic way.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, if you really want to understand what area is,
you've got to go back to what it means to
be human. So if you look at deep history, then
there's some very interesting things that differentiate human beings, so
Homo sapiens from other species. The first is that we
(12:44):
are tool makers. The other thing that distinguishes us, of course,
is that we walk upright. We are upright primates, and
we have opposable thumbs that allow us to have the stoolmaking.
But forty thousand years ago, there was another huge revolution
in human evolution, and it's referred to as the cognitive revolution.
(13:10):
And all these humans, like other species, had a language
for survival and safety. And basically the language was mating calls,
sex calls because we survived through reproduction. Food calls we
need that for survival, and danger calls we need to
(13:31):
avoid danger. But then Homo sapiens created a language for stories, gossip.
But then they created other stories. Money is a story.
There was not I think we said, oh, you know,
i'll cut your hair, you fix my shoes, but that's
not convenient. I'll give you a shell. That's not convenient.
I'll give you a coin, paper money. Now we have
(13:53):
digital money. Okay, So we created models of experience and
stories latitude longitude Greenwich meantime, these are all human stories.
But we didn't stop there. We created stories for biology.
We created stories for physics. That's a language, okay, language.
(14:16):
Physics is a language. Biology is a language. Anthropology is
a language. Philosophy is a language. Religion is language. Science
is language. Technology is a language. And we never stopped,
you know, we keptally be embarked on the agricultural age,
the industrial age, the technology age, the digital age, and
(14:40):
now the Internet as we know it is a large
language model. It accesses all human languages. The language of
physics is that, yeah, all the languages I mentioned to you.
So AI as a large language model has been only
around only the last fifteen years. I guarantee you that
(15:03):
if you disappeared today on a remote island and you
came back twenty years, you wouldn't recognize is the world
you would be in. You would have leapfrogged into a
new culture, a new civilization. But even your biological organism
would be different. You wouldn't be a human anymore. You
would be something like a meta human or a cyber human. Yeah,
(15:27):
but you know, the primate said the same thing when
humans emerged and started to walk upright, Okay, monkeys said
that's scary, right, But we don't think it's scary. So
in twenty years you'll leapfrog into a new biological species.
Because every time you learn something, your neural network changes,
(15:49):
the landscape of your brain changes, your gene activity changes,
called epigenetics. So now we have access to the language
of you mentioned gurus, but go beyond that. You have
access to the stages of the unashas, you have access
to the luminaries of the Old Testament. You have access
(16:10):
to all the Western philosophers, you have access to thought leaders,
you have access actually to every luminary that has existed
on this planet. And being a thought leader not only
in science but in spirituality. With AI, you can access
(16:30):
all that and then you can choose what you feel
as a guide to your spiritual enlightenment. Having said that,
AI is not even intelligent, it's just a large language model,
a huge database, a huge base of knowledge. But it's
a guide post for your self exploration. The key to this,
(16:55):
as I point out in the book, is the art
of the prompt. You have to know what you're looking
for most people don't know what they're looking for. They
don't even know who they are, they don't even know
that they should be grateful for the fact that they exist,
because existence is a great mystery. Now, with the right prompts,
AI can lead you to the answers to these questions.
(17:18):
That's why it's a spiritual guide, or you can use
it as a spiritual guide.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I love the idea that AI is just a tool
and it's our choice of how we use it. And
I think we have such a pessimistic view of it.
We just seem so certain that it's going to mean
the end of times, the end of It's.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Going to happen with every invention. Okay, yeah, a knife
can be used to kill a person, but in a
surgeon's hands, a knife heels, a hammer can be used
to also knock somebody on the head. But in a
carpenter's hands it's an amazing tool. So also, once the
(18:03):
technology comes, it's irreversible. It's like a child that cannot
return to the womb. Or it's like once you walk
up right stop crawling, you can't go back to it.
So either you adapt to it or help. I actually
believe that given shared vision and maximum diversity of storytellers
(18:24):
and talent and shared vision. We could use AI to
create a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier and joyful world
because all the challenges we have right now, but like
climate change, social and economic injustice, like chronic disease, and
unsustainable biology, all these are reversible and AI has the
(18:49):
ability to tell us how to do it. We just
have to have the collective.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Will coming up. Why dpak Chopra doesn't think you should
be scared of AI and why he thinks it might
actually be an important tool for those of us who
want to pursue meaning, purpose and happiness. I think I
(19:15):
when I've thought about happiness, and sometimes I think about
when I would be at my happiest, and I often
picture myself untethered technology. That's kind of like the default
place that I go. And maybe it's because my childhood
was less dominated by technology and it's kind of a
purer emotional experience. But I think you're right that in
(19:38):
this day and age, you can't put the genie back
in the bottle. I'm not going to live on a
deserted island with no technology if I want to live
in the world with people and I want to connect
with others. What is this idea about a meta human?
Where do you think AI is going to take us?
(20:00):
In that sense?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
New frontiers of creativity and imagination and insight and new experiences. Yeah,
is just beginning. Soon you'll have what is called ambient computing,
which means you will be able to use any surface
as a computer, your wall, your tabletop, the floor, even
(20:24):
your hand. So that's coming soon, ambient computing. Then you
have virtual reality. Then you have augmented reality, which means
you take this reality we're in, but you augment it
with technology. Then you have extended reality or immersive experiences.
And then you have holography as an immersive experience. And
(20:50):
all these technologies will extend the range of human experience
in a way that is beyond your imagination right now. Okay,
Also there'll be therapeutic jewels, because if you understand what
is called the heart problem of consciousness, many people now
believe that the universe would live in and your body
(21:12):
and your mind is part of that universe. Is in
fact a virtual reality. It's not fundamental reality, and it's
a human reality. So when you look at a tree,
you look at a tree through the human eyes and
human brain. It's not the same tree to an insect
to the one hundred eyes. It's not the same tree
(21:33):
to a bat that it sees the tree through the
echo of ultrasound. It's not the same tree to a
snake that moves through navigates through infrared. So there's no
objective world. The world that we call the objective world
is a simulation. It's a virtual reality. With these extended realities,
(21:54):
I'm speaking of augmented reality, extended reality we are, and
immersive experiences. Right now, Actually, I've created my own digital twin.
It's called digitallypark dot ai. You don't need to download
an app. Just download it from Go to Google or
any Chrome or any device on your computer or handheld phone,
(22:19):
and you can speak to my digital twin in four
languages and answer will be given in four languages, English,
in the Arabic and Spanish, and soon in Chinese and
Russian and all other languages. And you can ask it
any question about health or relationships, or well being, or
(22:40):
sleep or stress management or spirituality. It will instantly give
you an answer, but it also give you the resources
where the answer came from. And then I'm looking at
these weariables now right that you can see them wearing
an eyebotch and aura which looks at my sleep, which
(23:00):
my looks at my exercise, and that will be matched
to your lifestyle, your sleep, wake patterns, your nutrition. Then
this technology, all the things I mentioned will become your
personal health coach and will guide you to health longevity.
(23:20):
And because it will know you, it'll do what time
you went to slap, if you had an argument with
your spouse and your blood pressure went up or your
blood sugar went up, it'll know that, and it'll be
your personal health coach with no intervention. Uh. And it
will be what we call a distributed autonomous agent, which
(23:42):
means you don't really need d Park. You need a
version of the park that you like and is personal
to you, rather than say John or whoever else. So
you know the future is beyond your imagination right now?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Do you worry that?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I never worry about anything.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I know. I know you're you're incredibly faithful. But in
terms of II and all of those developments you were
talking about, a crucial part of happiness and kind of
meaning appears to be human connection. That it's human connection
and it's our relationships with each other that are the
(24:27):
basis for a fulfilling life. Do you think that those
kind of technological leaning towards technology might erode that human connection.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Well, you know, if you look at what makes people happy,
there are several things that are involved. One is your attitude.
Do you look at the world as a problem or
do you look at the world as an opportunity? And
that's based on your childhood conditioning. If you've got lots
of attention, affection, appreciation, and acceptance, you'll grow up to
(25:04):
be a happy person. Or else if you don't, you
can run for office or president or something. You know,
there's always an opportunity for unhappy people. That's called politics. Yeah, okay, So,
but if you want to be happy, it's your attitude
number one. Number two is what we call fulfillment, whether
(25:26):
you have meaning a purpose in life. And number three
it's your relationships. In fact, the fastest way to be
happy is to make other people happy. That's all well researched.
So looking at that actually a can help you because
you know, during the pandemic COVID pandemic, I created an
(25:47):
emotional chat pot which was an AI, which is talking
to teens and suicide is the second most common cause
of death among teens. But these teens were very happy
to talk to this machine because they weren't judged. We
intervened in five thousand suicide ideations. And then also so
(26:10):
there were twenty million text messages that the AIR was
having with teenagers who didn't feel judged. The AIR would
ask them what did you have for dinner last time?
Did your boyfriend return your call? Etc. And then I
stopped using it because I realized that there were experts
better than me in this intervention, but we actually saw
(26:33):
the benefits of AI in mental well being. Also, I
believe you can use AI to create global online and
offline communities where people serve each other, where people engage
in community work, and where people are there for each other,
listening to each other, caring for each other. And this
(26:56):
can be both online and offline. It depends on us
our creativity. It doesn't need to take away the human
connection at all. In fact, it can enhance it.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I think that's a really interesting way to look at it,
because I think a lot of the thinking about this
seems to seems to posit that we will almost go backwards,
that people will turn away from their phones and turn
back to each other.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Will yeah, yeah, yeah, it's their choice, you know, because
as I said, you know, every technology comes with the hazard,
whether it's the automobile or aviation or crossing the road
these days, you know, on the streets. So you know,
that's how life is. It contains opposing forces. It's up
(27:45):
to you where you put your attention.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
When you think about this spiritual journey. And you write
in the book about AI being an aide for that
spiritual journey, you talk about how spiritual experiences carry you
outside your story. Can you explain that idea because that
blew my mind.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
You are born into a world of stories and it's
been interpreted for you when you're born. So oh, now,
this baby, let's call it Deepark, and it's an Indian baby.
It has a Hindu religion and this is its economic background.
(28:31):
And then you are just in that story. Your options
for creativity and experience are limited by the ecosystem of
the stories that you're born into. Inherently, there's no creativity
in that because you know, you're just recycling what happened
to your parents, and there happened. So you'll go to
(28:52):
kindergarten then you go to high, middle school, high school,
then you go to college, then you get a job,
you get children, then you grow old, and then you die,
and then the next generation recycles that. And of course,
all the conflicts in the world are conflicts about stories.
Whether they're religious stories, or ethnic stories, or national stories
(29:17):
or cultural stories. They're all ideological conflicts, including economic stories.
All the conflicts in the world, all the war is
about my story is better than yours, and you know
you better buy into my story. I am right and
you're wrong. Once you break out of your story, you
(29:38):
find that you're not tethered to any one version of reality.
And that's called spirituality. It's called being in touch with
that part of you which is in the realm of
infinite freedom, infinite possibilities for experience, and infinite creativity. As
(29:59):
I said to you, ninety nine point nine percent of
people are not there. Spirituality just means breaking out of
your story into the field of infinite possibilities called self
realize it's not your ego identity, but the bigger identity,
which is more universal and in the domain of the sacred.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And you have an example in the book about how
that kind of spiritual journey or you know, that idea
of living in your personal drama, that love is an
example of being in your personal dama case.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
But love is not just sentimental romance or emotional melodrama.
That's not really love. That's self importance. Love to be
truly love is the understanding that what you call the
other is just like you in a different uniform. That's
(30:59):
all you know. The body looks different, the mind is
a different story, but it's still the same essence. That's love,
and it's without conditions.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, and I like that idea because when I thought
about love, I thought, yeah, love doesn't follow whatever story
you put on it.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
No, it's like a mother's love for a baby is
unconditioner till the baby gets an ego and then there's.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's not finding you right. Your story is the life
you are leading. Your dama is the life you're supposed
to lead. And then you say, that's such an idealistic
statement that most people would bulk at it or at
least hesitate before embracing it. Is it really credible that
everyone has a life they are supposed to lead? If so,
(31:47):
who or what determines what such a life is? The
answer is you it feels better to make a dharmic
choice than a choice that puts you out of your dama.
What is an example in your own life of a
darmic choice, like day to day, what's a choice that
you make that you know is in your darma?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
It feels joyous, spontaneous, effortless and flow. So you know,
the scale of human well being is survival, adaptation, thriving, flourishing, flowing,
(32:30):
and awakening. And most people learn the survival mode or
they're adapting, and therefore there's resistance to every experience you
have in dharma, there's no resistance to existence. It's just flow.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
And you say in the book, you've got this idea
of how in Western philosophy we have a bit of
a concept that if we look inside ourselves deep enough,
Sigmund Freud said, you find like a death wish, whereas
an Eastern philosophy you find goodness. There's nothing to fear
(33:08):
about going there.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Everyone is the fear of their losing their story. They're
hanging on or clutching or grasping the ungraspable. So if
I asked you what happened to your childhood, you'd say
it's a dream. If I asked you, what happened to yesterday?
It's a dream? What about this morning? It's a dream?
(33:32):
What about five minutes ago? It's a dream? What about
the words that I'm using right now. By the time
you hear them, they don't exist. So you know. Mityen Stein,
the Western philosopher, said, our life is a dream. We
are asleep, but once in a while we wake up
enough to know that we're dreaming. The Buddha said the
(33:52):
same thing. He said, this lifetime of ours is transient
as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of
beings is like looking at the movements of a dance.
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the
sky and rushing by like a torrent down a steep.
So we're clutching at a dream which is unclutchable. You're
(34:15):
grasping at something that is ungraspable. You can't return to
your childhood, you can't return to five minutes ago, you
can't return to yesterday. And yet all our anxieties by
holding on to a dream. What's behind the dream is
the infinite possibilities of experience. That is called the spirit
(34:36):
or the self or the soul or you don't have
to use fancy words. You say, what is life without
a story? It's infinite stories for you to create your
the protagonist, the director, the hero, and the villain of
your own story. Once you realize that, then that's freedom.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
The other thing about AI as well is that it
kind of crosses that boundary in that it doesn't have
to because AI is not a person. It doesn't have
to be religious. It can transcend all those things.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Well, spirituality. Once you engage in spirituality, you realize there's
no such thing as a person. The person is part
of the dream. It's all there is is the spirit.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And is that what transcendency is?
Speaker 1 (35:25):
That's what transcendences. Yes, when people transcend their three components,
there are actually originally we what the called the religious experience.
These days, it's kind of cool to say I'm spiritual,
but I'm not religious. But the religious experience and the
spiritual experience is the same thing. One is transcendence, second
(35:48):
is spontaneous emergence of platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, love, compassion, joy, equanimity, happiness.
And the third is the loss of the fear of death,
because only the story dies, not the entity that's appearing
(36:08):
as a particular story. So that's the religious and spiritual experience.
And I think I can point the way because it
learns from others who have gone that way.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
After the break, I asked Deepak Chopra about how to
get into meditation if it's not something you've done a
lot in the past, and I get his thoughts on
fame and social media. You have for a long time
talked about meditation and your practice of meditation. What does
(36:44):
your practice of meditation look like now?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Like in your days, it's a lot of self reflection,
self inquiry, mindful awareness in the present moment, of perceptual experience,
of relationships of the body of the mind, and transcendence.
And actually, my digital twin now can teach you any
kind of meditation that you want. So if you go
(37:09):
to digitally parked, I say I want a meditation for sleep,
there it is and I'll be your guide. Or I
want a meditation for repairing my traumatic relationship with whoever,
there's a meditation for that. So now meditation, give me
personalized What.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Do you think is kind of the best way for
somebody to get into meditation if they've never done it before, Just.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
A few minutes, even five minutes of observing your breath
without judgment, or observing your bodily sensations, or sitting with
your eyes closed and doing nothing for five minutes is
a good start.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And when you started your kind of spiritual journey, as
as it's kind of ended up now in terms of
career path and that kind of thing, what did meditation
provide you? Like, what can you remember about when you
really started to meditate? How did your life change?
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Well, the first thing meditation does is the ordinary stresses
of daily existence. Don't perceive threats as other people perceive them.
But it's much more than that. It enhances your insight
into your own self, into your own motivations. It enhances
(38:38):
the barer of intention, intuition, creativity, insight, higher consciousness, transcendence,
all of that.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
And as your career has grown, it's interesting because you
have stayed so grounded in these principles of spirituality, but
you've experienced so much of what usually corrupts people in
terms of fame and having a profile and having such
a prolific and achievement filled life. How have you avoided
(39:12):
the trappings of fame? Have you ever felt like you
could succumb to how fame can corrupt human beings.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
It does, always does, and fame has driven by insecurity.
So I've never met a famous person who's not insecure
because they are concerned about losing their fame. You know,
it's like having a lot of money and waking up
in a nightmare that you don't have any et cetera.
(39:41):
But when you don't attach yourself to it, it keeps
you grounded, and it keeps you creative, and it keeps
you secure. You know that there are three addictions that
human beings have. One is the addiction to sensation, which
is any sensation, food, text, whatever. The second is the
(40:02):
addiction to power and corruption, and the third is the
addiction to security. The addiction to security is the biggest
cause insecurity. If actually you realize that addiction and fame
and power are all actually impediments to your true fulfillment,
(40:24):
then you let go of it. It's not there.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Do you conceive of when you look back on your life?
Do you think about things like failure or regret? Or
do those concepts simply not exist to you?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Not? For me?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
No, is there anything that if you looked back you
wish you'd done differently or no idea.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Everything I did with samely when it happened, you know,
as a teenager experiment with cigarettes and psychedelics and all
of that alcohol, realized it wasn't worth it.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
And when you've met other because you've you know, you've
done so much in this world of fame. What have
you seen in famous people? Do you think they have
a craving for this deeper spiritual meaning because they're like
some do.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I mean, you know, people like Montin Luther King Junior,
or Nelson Mandela or Mongandhi or the great luminaries of
spiritual and traditions and religious traditions. But for the last
majority of famous people, they're mostly very insecure people, the
more attached to power, influence, speddling, cronyism, corruption and money.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
That's it, which I think is a really interesting thing
for people to know in this day and age where
fame is so valorized, and so many people look at
fame and think that that's a goal and that's what
I should work towards. But there's this other path of
meaning and transcendence.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, but you see, this is the hypnosis of our conditioning.
People are looking at their at their social media to
see how many likes theiket or how many dislikes theiket,
and it influences they stay to wellbeing and the number
of likes. They've confused themselves with their selfies? Yes, yes,
(42:28):
self has been sacrificed for a selfie.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
And do you ever get confused by no deepak and
social media dapa, No, I use.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Social media only to contribute Yeah, well being, that's.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, and you have such a huge reach through it.
You write in the book that it's amazing how technology
has been a vehicle for you to be able to
feed people's spiritual hunger.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah. Yeah, it gives me enjoy to do that, and
technologies enhance my ability to reach what we call critical mass.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
We often end this show by asking people whether they're
genuinely happy, because we speak to people who have reached
all kinds of markers of success that we really value culturally.
(43:26):
Is it even worth asking depac drop right?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I think happiness is overrated. I'm at peace, I'm fulfilled. Happiness,
like every other experience, is transient. You know, happiness is
because you've experienced sadness. You can't have both with one
without the other, just like you can't have an up
without a down, or hot without a cold, or any
(43:55):
experiences by contrast. So happiness is a contrast to the
experience of sadness, and life is both sadness is and happiness.
But peace transcends both happiness and sadness, and that's called fulfillment.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Oh, I love that. That's a beautiful way to end.
Thank you so much for your time today. That's all
we've got time for on this very special episode of
But Are You Happy? I hope you learnt a bit
about how artificial intelligence might actually be a force for
good when it comes to our mental health and our
(44:33):
well being. And I hope you also liked hearing about
the concept of dharma and Chopra's broad ideas about finding
meaning and purpose in a world where we're often pushed
in the direction of valuing quite shallow things. We often
talk about that on this show, that there's a bit
(44:55):
of an assumption that money or fame or adoration or
success is going to make you happy. And I think
Deepak Chopra is completely right that we've been a little
bit tricked in the Western world into thinking those things
will bring us something that they just don't. I am
tempted to lean into the idea of a spiritual journey,
(45:17):
except that every time I go to meditate, I end
up on TikTok. So if anyone's got any hacks or
tips about how to not do that, that'd be great.
But Deepak says, I'm on the right path, so that's
the main thing. The executive producer of But Are You Happy?
Is Nama Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, with audio
(45:39):
editing by Jacob ROWNT. Now I'm your host. Claire Stevens
will be back in your ears soon
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma May I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
A knife can be used to kill a person, but
in the surgeon's hands, a knife heels. A hammer can
be used to also knock somebody on the head, but
in a carpenter's hands. It's an amazing too.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Hello and welcome to but are you happy? The podcast
that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
the people who appear to have it all. I'm Claire
Stevens and today's episode is a particularly special one. We
have the Australian exclusive for a long form podcast interview
with New York Times best selling author an internationally acclaimed guru,
(01:06):
Deepak Chopra. I can almost guarantee that, so where deep
in the abyss of your phone photos you have a
screenshot of a Deepak Chopper quote, or there is some
piece of wisdom of his that you have tried to
pass off as your own, thinking that you're actually quite
clever and profound when you really just heard his words
(01:27):
at some point. Over the last few decades, he has
long been known as a pioneer of New Age spirituality,
and he has long advocated for the benefits of meditation.
He encourages people to expand their awareness and their consciousness,
to really feel the awe of the mystery of our existence,
(01:51):
to see obstacles as opportunities in disguise, and to pursue
above anything, including happiness a sense of inner peace. Now,
I am very much on the record as not being
a very woo woo person, and I often flinch at
(02:12):
anything that isn't based in hard science. I can think
that it's a bit flimsy, a bit silly. I sometimes
look at ideas like manifestation and I think that they
haven't been interrogated enough. I have a bit of a
visceral reaction to it. And some of Chopper's ideas about
(02:37):
alternative medicine are quite controversial, but this interview wasn't about
discussing them. The truth is, I opened Deepak Chopper's most
recent book, which is called Digital Drama, How AI Can
Elevate Spiritual intelligence and Personal well Being, and I could
(02:58):
not stop reading. Maybe this book and these ideas came
to me at the exact right time, which I'm sure
is a sentiment that Deepak Chopper would agree with. He's
a big propose in their being meaning in these sorts
of things. But his ideas about purpose and having a
(03:18):
path and his optimism about AI, which is the thing
that is just going to change the future of humanity
in the immediate future, those ideas were utterly compelling and
I just kept reading. So here is my conversation with
(03:39):
the man who's written over eighty books that have been
translated into over forty languages, so his ideas are just
known all throughout the world. He's been interviewed by Oprah,
so maybe that was the second best interview that he's
ever had after me Ah. He has taught Madonna how
to meditate, and he has informed how so many of
(04:01):
us have come to think about our own well being,
satisfaction and happiness. He is deepact Chopra Deepak. I always
begin this show by asking our guests the same question,
which is did you grow up in a happy family
and was happiness prioritized?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
I did grow up in a very happy family. My
father was an army doctor, my mother was a storyteller,
and they were always celebrative about everything, looked at every
challenge as an opportunity, and enjoyed life basically, do.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
You remember as a kid or an adolescent having any
challenges to happiness. Do you remember was there anything that
you found you contended with in terms of well being
or satisfaction or finding meaning.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
As I mentioned, my mother was a storyteller, and every
time before she put me to bed, she would actually
sometimes sing or read a story and then stop it
at what we call a cliffhanger. Everything was going wrong,
(05:23):
and then she would say, I wanted to dream up
the rest of the story, make sure it has a
happy ending, and also make sure it's a love story.
So I got to reframe every challenge as a love
story with a happy ending. So the answer is short
answer is no, Oh.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
That's beautiful. That gives me. I've got a ten month
old daughter, and that gives me a good idea for
what to do before she goes to better she grows up.
You've recently released a book called Digital Dama, How AI
can Elevate spiritual intelligence and personal well being, and it
is perhaps the most hopeful exploration of AI that I
(06:06):
have read, and it essentially presents a case of how
AI I can help us live happier lives. You write
in the book Human happiness cannot be reduced to a formula,
and happiness is as dynamic as life itself, which is
exactly what this podcast is kind of based on and
what we've seen through every interview we've ever done. You
(06:29):
turn to the idea of a personal dama instead of
kind of focusing on the term happiness. Can you explain
what personal dama is and how it works.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Yeah, the closest equivalent of the herma in the West,
because there's no such term in the West. It's a
very Eastern. Going back to Yogic philosophy, So think of
the If you've ever heard of the seven chakras, you
know in yoga they represent seven levels of human need
(07:05):
and expression. So the first one that has to do
with security, safety, the second has to do with sensual delight,
including sexual delight, The third has to do with transformation,
the fourth has to do with love and belonging, the
fifth has to do with creative expression, the sixth has
(07:27):
to do with insight and intuition and imagination and heart consciousness,
and the seventh has to do with enlightenment or transcendence.
So dharma would mean literally fulfilling all these human aspirations
and needs. The closest summary of that would be Joseph
(07:50):
Campbell's phrase, follow your bliss. When you're following your bliss,
then you're in dharmah it how you fit into the
whole scheme of things.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, and when you look at Western culture, do you
think you can see that people aren't following their personal dharma.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Western culture has mostly focused on material success and the
idea that if you have lots of money, then you
will be a happy person and you'll also be fulfilled,
so that becomes the defining purpose of life. Now, when
(08:30):
you look at that data, only ten percent to twelve
percent of your daily happiness experience comes from money or
what we call material success prestige. And you know, people
confuse their self esteem with the net worth. They think
net worth is self worth. But if you look at
(08:52):
the data, about ten to twelve percent of our daily
happiness experience comes from that. If someone wins the lottery,
for example, they'll be ecstatic in the beginning, but then
in six months they begin to plateau, and in one
year they're back to where they were before they won
the lottery. Five years that are actually more unhappy than
(09:14):
they were before because that becomes their identity. Money becomes
their identity, or material success becomes their identity, and all
the other things I mentioned are in the background. So
there's no fulfillment. There's temporary pleasure and happiness, and that's
a big difference between pleasure, happiness, joy, peace. These are
(09:40):
different levels of fulfillment. So ultimately, if you don't have peace,
then what good is pleasure? Or if you have happiness,
But it's always around the corner. If I get this,
I'll be happier. If I have the right relationship, the
right amount of money, the right job, I'll be happier.
(10:01):
The answer is yeah, probably to a little extent, but
then you'll be asking yourself what's next, or you'll be
concerned that you might lose what you have. So ultimately,
through happiness or joy only comes from getting in touch
with their spiritual identity.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Do you feel like, through all your decades of learning
about this and writing about it and speaking to people
about it, do you think you can tell when somebody
is or is not in their personal DAMA from the outside.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I think nineteen nine percent or not, so I don't
have to guess. Yeah, everybody's walking around like a biological robot.
They take their existence for granted, and they recycle their
cultural and social and family conditioning. So every generation is
(10:58):
recycling the previous generation, and the conditioning is deep. It's economic,
it's cultural, it's social, it's religious, it's ethnic. So very
few people even have the idea of what's my purpose?
Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, I think, I think you're right, But I was
gonna ask, do you think I'm in my personal dumbit
The answer is no, so you don't even have to
try and answer yes. Great, great point. I like that answer.
You're essentially asking in this book, can AI act as
(11:36):
a guru or a guide? And in Indian tradition, spiritual
journeys required a guide. But you point out in the
book that there's a modern problem with this idea in
that being a guru comes with the cult of personality.
I think we've also seen that there are so many
times when being a guru corrupts a person with power.
(11:59):
You know, it gives them all this power and they
don't necessarily use it in a good way. So your
suggestion is that AI can fill this role with kind
of no ego in this context, can you explain what
AI is and how you think of it in this
(12:20):
optimistic way.
Speaker 1 (12:22):
Yeah, if you really want to understand what area is,
you've got to go back to what it means to
be human. So if you look at deep history, then
there's some very interesting things that differentiate human beings, so
Homo sapiens from other species. The first is that we
(12:44):
are tool makers. The other thing that distinguishes us, of course,
is that we walk upright. We are upright primates, and
we have opposable thumbs that allow us to have the stoolmaking.
But forty thousand years ago, there was another huge revolution
in human evolution, and it's referred to as the cognitive revolution.
(13:10):
And all these humans, like other species, had a language
for survival and safety. And basically the language was mating calls,
sex calls because we survived through reproduction. Food calls we
need that for survival, and danger calls we need to
(13:31):
avoid danger. But then Homo sapiens created a language for stories, gossip.
But then they created other stories. Money is a story.
There was not I think we said, oh, you know,
i'll cut your hair, you fix my shoes, but that's
not convenient. I'll give you a shell. That's not convenient.
I'll give you a coin, paper money. Now we have
(13:53):
digital money. Okay, So we created models of experience and
stories latitude longitude Greenwich meantime, these are all human stories.
But we didn't stop there. We created stories for biology.
We created stories for physics. That's a language, okay, language.
(14:16):
Physics is a language. Biology is a language. Anthropology is
a language. Philosophy is a language. Religion is language. Science
is language. Technology is a language. And we never stopped,
you know, we keptally be embarked on the agricultural age,
the industrial age, the technology age, the digital age, and
(14:40):
now the Internet as we know it is a large
language model. It accesses all human languages. The language of
physics is that, yeah, all the languages I mentioned to you.
So AI as a large language model has been only
around only the last fifteen years. I guarantee you that
(15:03):
if you disappeared today on a remote island and you
came back twenty years, you wouldn't recognize is the world
you would be in. You would have leapfrogged into a
new culture, a new civilization. But even your biological organism
would be different. You wouldn't be a human anymore. You
would be something like a meta human or a cyber human. Yeah,
(15:27):
but you know, the primate said the same thing when
humans emerged and started to walk upright, Okay, monkeys said
that's scary, right, But we don't think it's scary. So
in twenty years you'll leapfrog into a new biological species.
Because every time you learn something, your neural network changes,
(15:49):
the landscape of your brain changes, your gene activity changes,
called epigenetics. So now we have access to the language
of you mentioned gurus, but go beyond that. You have
access to the stages of the unashas, you have access
to the luminaries of the Old Testament. You have access
(16:10):
to all the Western philosophers, you have access to thought leaders,
you have access actually to every luminary that has existed
on this planet. And being a thought leader not only
in science but in spirituality. With AI, you can access
(16:30):
all that and then you can choose what you feel
as a guide to your spiritual enlightenment. Having said that,
AI is not even intelligent, it's just a large language model,
a huge database, a huge base of knowledge. But it's
a guide post for your self exploration. The key to this,
(16:55):
as I point out in the book, is the art
of the prompt. You have to know what you're looking
for most people don't know what they're looking for. They
don't even know who they are, they don't even know
that they should be grateful for the fact that they exist,
because existence is a great mystery. Now, with the right prompts,
AI can lead you to the answers to these questions.
(17:18):
That's why it's a spiritual guide, or you can use
it as a spiritual guide.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
I love the idea that AI is just a tool
and it's our choice of how we use it. And
I think we have such a pessimistic view of it.
We just seem so certain that it's going to mean
the end of times, the end of It's.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Going to happen with every invention. Okay, yeah, a knife
can be used to kill a person, but in a
surgeon's hands, a knife heels, a hammer can be used
to also knock somebody on the head. But in a
carpenter's hands it's an amazing tool. So also, once the
(18:03):
technology comes, it's irreversible. It's like a child that cannot
return to the womb. Or it's like once you walk
up right stop crawling, you can't go back to it.
So either you adapt to it or help. I actually
believe that given shared vision and maximum diversity of storytellers
(18:24):
and talent and shared vision. We could use AI to
create a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier and joyful world
because all the challenges we have right now, but like
climate change, social and economic injustice, like chronic disease, and
unsustainable biology, all these are reversible and AI has the
(18:49):
ability to tell us how to do it. We just
have to have the collective.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Will coming up. Why dpak Chopra doesn't think you should
be scared of AI and why he thinks it might
actually be an important tool for those of us who
want to pursue meaning, purpose and happiness. I think I
(19:15):
when I've thought about happiness, and sometimes I think about
when I would be at my happiest, and I often
picture myself untethered technology. That's kind of like the default
place that I go. And maybe it's because my childhood
was less dominated by technology and it's kind of a
purer emotional experience. But I think you're right that in
(19:38):
this day and age, you can't put the genie back
in the bottle. I'm not going to live on a
deserted island with no technology if I want to live
in the world with people and I want to connect
with others. What is this idea about a meta human?
Where do you think AI is going to take us?
(20:00):
In that sense?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
New frontiers of creativity and imagination and insight and new experiences. Yeah,
is just beginning. Soon you'll have what is called ambient computing,
which means you will be able to use any surface
as a computer, your wall, your tabletop, the floor, even
(20:24):
your hand. So that's coming soon, ambient computing. Then you
have virtual reality. Then you have augmented reality, which means
you take this reality we're in, but you augment it
with technology. Then you have extended reality or immersive experiences.
And then you have holography as an immersive experience. And
(20:50):
all these technologies will extend the range of human experience
in a way that is beyond your imagination right now. Okay,
Also there'll be therapeutic jewels, because if you understand what
is called the heart problem of consciousness, many people now
believe that the universe would live in and your body
(21:12):
and your mind is part of that universe. Is in
fact a virtual reality. It's not fundamental reality, and it's
a human reality. So when you look at a tree,
you look at a tree through the human eyes and
human brain. It's not the same tree to an insect
to the one hundred eyes. It's not the same tree
(21:33):
to a bat that it sees the tree through the
echo of ultrasound. It's not the same tree to a
snake that moves through navigates through infrared. So there's no
objective world. The world that we call the objective world
is a simulation. It's a virtual reality. With these extended realities,
(21:54):
I'm speaking of augmented reality, extended reality we are, and
immersive experiences. Right now, Actually, I've created my own digital twin.
It's called digitallypark dot ai. You don't need to download
an app. Just download it from Go to Google or
any Chrome or any device on your computer or handheld phone,
(22:19):
and you can speak to my digital twin in four
languages and answer will be given in four languages, English,
in the Arabic and Spanish, and soon in Chinese and
Russian and all other languages. And you can ask it
any question about health or relationships, or well being, or
(22:40):
sleep or stress management or spirituality. It will instantly give
you an answer, but it also give you the resources
where the answer came from. And then I'm looking at
these weariables now right that you can see them wearing
an eyebotch and aura which looks at my sleep, which
(23:00):
my looks at my exercise, and that will be matched
to your lifestyle, your sleep, wake patterns, your nutrition. Then
this technology, all the things I mentioned will become your
personal health coach and will guide you to health longevity.
(23:20):
And because it will know you, it'll do what time
you went to slap, if you had an argument with
your spouse and your blood pressure went up or your
blood sugar went up, it'll know that, and it'll be
your personal health coach with no intervention. Uh. And it
will be what we call a distributed autonomous agent, which
(23:42):
means you don't really need d Park. You need a
version of the park that you like and is personal
to you, rather than say John or whoever else. So
you know the future is beyond your imagination right now?
Speaker 2 (24:02):
Do you worry that?
Speaker 1 (24:03):
I never worry about anything.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
I know. I know you're you're incredibly faithful. But in
terms of II and all of those developments you were
talking about, a crucial part of happiness and kind of
meaning appears to be human connection. That it's human connection
and it's our relationships with each other that are the
(24:27):
basis for a fulfilling life. Do you think that those
kind of technological leaning towards technology might erode that human connection.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Well, you know, if you look at what makes people happy,
there are several things that are involved. One is your attitude.
Do you look at the world as a problem or
do you look at the world as an opportunity? And
that's based on your childhood conditioning. If you've got lots
of attention, affection, appreciation, and acceptance, you'll grow up to
(25:04):
be a happy person. Or else if you don't, you
can run for office or president or something. You know,
there's always an opportunity for unhappy people. That's called politics. Yeah, okay, So,
but if you want to be happy, it's your attitude
number one. Number two is what we call fulfillment, whether
(25:26):
you have meaning a purpose in life. And number three
it's your relationships. In fact, the fastest way to be
happy is to make other people happy. That's all well researched.
So looking at that actually a can help you because
you know, during the pandemic COVID pandemic, I created an
(25:47):
emotional chat pot which was an AI, which is talking
to teens and suicide is the second most common cause
of death among teens. But these teens were very happy
to talk to this machine because they weren't judged. We
intervened in five thousand suicide ideations. And then also so
(26:10):
there were twenty million text messages that the AIR was
having with teenagers who didn't feel judged. The AIR would
ask them what did you have for dinner last time?
Did your boyfriend return your call? Etc. And then I
stopped using it because I realized that there were experts
better than me in this intervention, but we actually saw
(26:33):
the benefits of AI in mental well being. Also, I
believe you can use AI to create global online and
offline communities where people serve each other, where people engage
in community work, and where people are there for each other,
listening to each other, caring for each other. And this
(26:56):
can be both online and offline. It depends on us
our creativity. It doesn't need to take away the human
connection at all. In fact, it can enhance it.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
I think that's a really interesting way to look at it,
because I think a lot of the thinking about this
seems to seems to posit that we will almost go backwards,
that people will turn away from their phones and turn
back to each other.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Will yeah, yeah, yeah, it's their choice, you know, because
as I said, you know, every technology comes with the hazard,
whether it's the automobile or aviation or crossing the road
these days, you know, on the streets. So you know,
that's how life is. It contains opposing forces. It's up
(27:45):
to you where you put your attention.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
When you think about this spiritual journey. And you write
in the book about AI being an aide for that
spiritual journey, you talk about how spiritual experiences carry you
outside your story. Can you explain that idea because that
blew my mind.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
You are born into a world of stories and it's
been interpreted for you when you're born. So oh, now,
this baby, let's call it Deepark, and it's an Indian baby.
It has a Hindu religion and this is its economic background.
(28:31):
And then you are just in that story. Your options
for creativity and experience are limited by the ecosystem of
the stories that you're born into. Inherently, there's no creativity
in that because you know, you're just recycling what happened
to your parents, and there happened. So you'll go to
(28:52):
kindergarten then you go to high, middle school, high school,
then you go to college, then you get a job,
you get children, then you grow old, and then you die,
and then the next generation recycles that. And of course,
all the conflicts in the world are conflicts about stories.
Whether they're religious stories, or ethnic stories, or national stories
(29:17):
or cultural stories. They're all ideological conflicts, including economic stories.
All the conflicts in the world, all the war is
about my story is better than yours, and you know
you better buy into my story. I am right and
you're wrong. Once you break out of your story, you
(29:38):
find that you're not tethered to any one version of reality.
And that's called spirituality. It's called being in touch with
that part of you which is in the realm of
infinite freedom, infinite possibilities for experience, and infinite creativity. As
(29:59):
I said to you, ninety nine point nine percent of
people are not there. Spirituality just means breaking out of
your story into the field of infinite possibilities called self
realize it's not your ego identity, but the bigger identity,
which is more universal and in the domain of the sacred.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
And you have an example in the book about how
that kind of spiritual journey or you know, that idea
of living in your personal drama, that love is an
example of being in your personal dama case.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
But love is not just sentimental romance or emotional melodrama.
That's not really love. That's self importance. Love to be
truly love is the understanding that what you call the
other is just like you in a different uniform. That's
(30:59):
all you know. The body looks different, the mind is
a different story, but it's still the same essence. That's love,
and it's without conditions.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
Yeah, and I like that idea because when I thought
about love, I thought, yeah, love doesn't follow whatever story
you put on it.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
No, it's like a mother's love for a baby is
unconditioner till the baby gets an ego and then there's.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
It's not finding you right. Your story is the life
you are leading. Your dama is the life you're supposed
to lead. And then you say, that's such an idealistic
statement that most people would bulk at it or at
least hesitate before embracing it. Is it really credible that
everyone has a life they are supposed to lead? If so,
(31:47):
who or what determines what such a life is? The
answer is you it feels better to make a dharmic
choice than a choice that puts you out of your dama.
What is an example in your own life of a
darmic choice, like day to day, what's a choice that
you make that you know is in your darma?
Speaker 1 (32:08):
It feels joyous, spontaneous, effortless and flow. So you know,
the scale of human well being is survival, adaptation, thriving, flourishing, flowing,
(32:30):
and awakening. And most people learn the survival mode or
they're adapting, and therefore there's resistance to every experience you
have in dharma, there's no resistance to existence. It's just flow.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
And you say in the book, you've got this idea
of how in Western philosophy we have a bit of
a concept that if we look inside ourselves deep enough,
Sigmund Freud said, you find like a death wish, whereas
an Eastern philosophy you find goodness. There's nothing to fear
(33:08):
about going there.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Everyone is the fear of their losing their story. They're
hanging on or clutching or grasping the ungraspable. So if
I asked you what happened to your childhood, you'd say
it's a dream. If I asked you, what happened to yesterday?
It's a dream? What about this morning? It's a dream?
(33:32):
What about five minutes ago? It's a dream? What about
the words that I'm using right now. By the time
you hear them, they don't exist. So you know. Mityen Stein,
the Western philosopher, said, our life is a dream. We
are asleep, but once in a while we wake up
enough to know that we're dreaming. The Buddha said the
(33:52):
same thing. He said, this lifetime of ours is transient
as autumn clouds. To watch the birth and death of
beings is like looking at the movements of a dance.
A lifetime is like a flash of lightning in the
sky and rushing by like a torrent down a steep.
So we're clutching at a dream which is unclutchable. You're
(34:15):
grasping at something that is ungraspable. You can't return to
your childhood, you can't return to five minutes ago, you
can't return to yesterday. And yet all our anxieties by
holding on to a dream. What's behind the dream is
the infinite possibilities of experience. That is called the spirit
(34:36):
or the self or the soul or you don't have
to use fancy words. You say, what is life without
a story? It's infinite stories for you to create your
the protagonist, the director, the hero, and the villain of
your own story. Once you realize that, then that's freedom.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
The other thing about AI as well is that it
kind of crosses that boundary in that it doesn't have
to because AI is not a person. It doesn't have
to be religious. It can transcend all those things.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Well, spirituality. Once you engage in spirituality, you realize there's
no such thing as a person. The person is part
of the dream. It's all there is is the spirit.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
And is that what transcendency is?
Speaker 1 (35:25):
That's what transcendences. Yes, when people transcend their three components,
there are actually originally we what the called the religious experience.
These days, it's kind of cool to say I'm spiritual,
but I'm not religious. But the religious experience and the
spiritual experience is the same thing. One is transcendence, second
(35:48):
is spontaneous emergence of platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, love, compassion, joy, equanimity, happiness.
And the third is the loss of the fear of death,
because only the story dies, not the entity that's appearing
(36:08):
as a particular story. So that's the religious and spiritual experience.
And I think I can point the way because it
learns from others who have gone that way.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
After the break, I asked Deepak Chopra about how to
get into meditation if it's not something you've done a
lot in the past, and I get his thoughts on
fame and social media. You have for a long time
talked about meditation and your practice of meditation. What does
(36:44):
your practice of meditation look like now?
Speaker 1 (36:48):
Like in your days, it's a lot of self reflection,
self inquiry, mindful awareness in the present moment, of perceptual experience,
of relationships of the body of the mind, and transcendence.
And actually, my digital twin now can teach you any
kind of meditation that you want. So if you go
(37:09):
to digitally parked, I say I want a meditation for sleep,
there it is and I'll be your guide. Or I
want a meditation for repairing my traumatic relationship with whoever,
there's a meditation for that. So now meditation, give me
personalized What.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Do you think is kind of the best way for
somebody to get into meditation if they've never done it before, Just.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
A few minutes, even five minutes of observing your breath
without judgment, or observing your bodily sensations, or sitting with
your eyes closed and doing nothing for five minutes is
a good start.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
And when you started your kind of spiritual journey, as
as it's kind of ended up now in terms of
career path and that kind of thing, what did meditation
provide you? Like, what can you remember about when you
really started to meditate? How did your life change?
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Well, the first thing meditation does is the ordinary stresses
of daily existence. Don't perceive threats as other people perceive them.
But it's much more than that. It enhances your insight
into your own self, into your own motivations. It enhances
(38:38):
the barer of intention, intuition, creativity, insight, higher consciousness, transcendence,
all of that.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
And as your career has grown, it's interesting because you
have stayed so grounded in these principles of spirituality, but
you've experienced so much of what usually corrupts people in
terms of fame and having a profile and having such
a prolific and achievement filled life. How have you avoided
(39:12):
the trappings of fame? Have you ever felt like you
could succumb to how fame can corrupt human beings.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
It does, always does, and fame has driven by insecurity.
So I've never met a famous person who's not insecure
because they are concerned about losing their fame. You know,
it's like having a lot of money and waking up
in a nightmare that you don't have any et cetera.
(39:41):
But when you don't attach yourself to it, it keeps
you grounded, and it keeps you creative, and it keeps
you secure. You know that there are three addictions that
human beings have. One is the addiction to sensation, which
is any sensation, food, text, whatever. The second is the
(40:02):
addiction to power and corruption, and the third is the
addiction to security. The addiction to security is the biggest
cause insecurity. If actually you realize that addiction and fame
and power are all actually impediments to your true fulfillment,
(40:24):
then you let go of it. It's not there.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Do you conceive of when you look back on your life?
Do you think about things like failure or regret? Or
do those concepts simply not exist to you?
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Not? For me?
Speaker 2 (40:44):
No, is there anything that if you looked back you
wish you'd done differently or no idea.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
Everything I did with samely when it happened, you know,
as a teenager experiment with cigarettes and psychedelics and all
of that alcohol, realized it wasn't worth it.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
And when you've met other because you've you know, you've
done so much in this world of fame. What have
you seen in famous people? Do you think they have
a craving for this deeper spiritual meaning because they're like
some do.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
I mean, you know, people like Montin Luther King Junior,
or Nelson Mandela or Mongandhi or the great luminaries of
spiritual and traditions and religious traditions. But for the last
majority of famous people, they're mostly very insecure people, the
more attached to power, influence, speddling, cronyism, corruption and money.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
That's it, which I think is a really interesting thing
for people to know in this day and age where
fame is so valorized, and so many people look at
fame and think that that's a goal and that's what
I should work towards. But there's this other path of
meaning and transcendence.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, but you see, this is the hypnosis of our conditioning.
People are looking at their at their social media to
see how many likes theiket or how many dislikes theiket,
and it influences they stay to wellbeing and the number
of likes. They've confused themselves with their selfies? Yes, yes,
(42:28):
self has been sacrificed for a selfie.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
And do you ever get confused by no deepak and
social media dapa, No, I use.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Social media only to contribute Yeah, well being, that's.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, and you have such a huge reach through it.
You write in the book that it's amazing how technology
has been a vehicle for you to be able to
feed people's spiritual hunger.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
Yeah. Yeah, it gives me enjoy to do that, and
technologies enhance my ability to reach what we call critical mass.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
We often end this show by asking people whether they're
genuinely happy, because we speak to people who have reached
all kinds of markers of success that we really value culturally.
(43:26):
Is it even worth asking depac drop right?
Speaker 1 (43:30):
I think happiness is overrated. I'm at peace, I'm fulfilled. Happiness,
like every other experience, is transient. You know, happiness is
because you've experienced sadness. You can't have both with one
without the other, just like you can't have an up
without a down, or hot without a cold, or any
(43:55):
experiences by contrast. So happiness is a contrast to the
experience of sadness, and life is both sadness is and happiness.
But peace transcends both happiness and sadness, and that's called fulfillment.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Oh, I love that. That's a beautiful way to end.
Thank you so much for your time today. That's all
we've got time for on this very special episode of
But Are You Happy? I hope you learnt a bit
about how artificial intelligence might actually be a force for
good when it comes to our mental health and our
(44:33):
well being. And I hope you also liked hearing about
the concept of dharma and Chopra's broad ideas about finding
meaning and purpose in a world where we're often pushed
in the direction of valuing quite shallow things. We often
talk about that on this show, that there's a bit
(44:55):
of an assumption that money or fame or adoration or
success is going to make you happy. And I think
Deepak Chopra is completely right that we've been a little
bit tricked in the Western world into thinking those things
will bring us something that they just don't. I am
tempted to lean into the idea of a spiritual journey,
(45:17):
except that every time I go to meditate, I end
up on TikTok. So if anyone's got any hacks or
tips about how to not do that, that'd be great.
But Deepak says, I'm on the right path, so that's
the main thing. The executive producer of But Are You Happy?
Is Nama Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, with audio
(45:39):
editing by Jacob ROWNT. Now I'm your host. Claire Stevens
will be back in your ears soon
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