November 14, 2025 • 38 mins
Ever feel like making friends as an adult is… weirdly awkward?
In this episode of But Are You Happy, clinical psychologist Dr. Anastasia Hronis talks about how to actually make new friends once you’re out of school and why having strong, genuine connections matters more than ever.
You'll also learn:
- How loneliness can impact your mental AND physical health
- The roadblocks that stop us from forming new connections as adults
- How to find community through practical avenues
- Ways to get comfortable with not everyone liking you
Watch the podcast on YouTube here.
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Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Audio Producer: Tina Matolov
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to I'mum with Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to the Finder Friend Hotline.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
How can I help? Hi, I'd like to.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Make some new friends please perfect?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Can I have your name Maddie? And are you a
child or a teenager? Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
No, I'm an adult. Oh sorry, we don't serve as adults.
We've run out of friends for that age group. What Yeah,
you see people over the age of twenty kind of
have their groups sorted and they're just not looking for
new friends.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Oh for Mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashandi Dante. Welcome
to But Are You Happy? The podcast for people who've
mastered the art of the nervous laugh and emotionally avoided
eye contact.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And I'm doctor Anastaga Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Have you ever wanted to try
and form new friendships as an adult but haven't been
sure how to go about it?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Somewhere along the way, asking
someone out for a coffee to be friends started to
feel weirdly embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Exactly what we're going to be talking about today. How
do you actually make new friends as an adult? And
why do strong, high quality friendships really matter more than ever, let's.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Get into it. So in our last season episode one,
we spoke about how to end friendships without ghosting, But
today we're looking at the other side of the equation,
how to make new friends, particularly as an adult, because
let's be honest, it can feel awkward and hard. But
before we unpack that, I'm interested to know why is
(01:37):
making adult friendships so important? Like why should we be
making it a priority.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's interesting because I think the fact that we're doing
a podcast episode on this topic goes to show that
there is an interest from the general public from adults
as to how to make, you know, adult friendships. We're
not doing a podcast on like how to scroll on
your phone more because everyone knows how to do that, right, Yeah,
exactly exactly. So I think actually what it speaks to
(02:06):
is the fact that people don't necessarily feel like they
are well connected as adults. Maybe they don't feel like
they have enough friends, maybe they don't feel like those
friendships are the sort of quality they want them to be.
And when I was doing the prep for this episode,
the first thing that actually came to mind about adult
friendships was the flip side of that, which is loneliness
and the fact that we're in this loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So interesting that you touch on loneliness because it actually
gets me thinking a lot about how I don't know,
I've been in the social impact space for over ten years,
and I feel like there's a lot of mental health
charities and campaigns that are out there around building awareness
around loneliness. But it does get me thinking about have like,
(02:49):
have we actually made progress because people are getting more
and more lonely, Like it's a pandemic in a way.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yes, yes, And the data would say that we're not
actually making much progress right over the last few years.
I think COVID years really sort of show on a
spotlight on feeling disconnected and feeling lonely. But since COVID,
you know, we're back to sort of normal social interactions.
But the data tells us that people are feeling more
lonely than ever. There was a study done by the
(03:18):
World Health Organization that said about one in six people
report really high levels of loneliness. And the thing about
loneliness is that it's not just an uncomfortable emotional experience,
but actually the research says that there's consequences for both
our physical and our mental health. So they say that
these days loneliness can be almost worse than smoking. You know,
(03:39):
loneliness is linked to premature death. All these actual like
physical health outcomes, negative outcomes, that is linked to loneliness.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Wow, it's wild when you unpack it like that, because
it makes sense how loneliness can impact mental health because
it's such a mental, emotional, internal process. But the fact
that you're saying that it impacts our physical health, it
shows that it is all connected, which I know we've
touched on before in previous episodes too. It's interesting too
because it gets me thinking about how loneliness. It reminds
(04:09):
me of this term escapism. And for anyone tuning in,
I have done a bit of homework, some research on
the definition of escapism and look, this is a bit
of a controversial opinion, but I did ask chatchybt, my
good old friend chatcibt mean Chatty. We have a good bond,
and this is what Chatty had to say. Escapism is
(04:31):
the tendency or desire to avoid facing reality, responsibilities, or
difficult emotions by seeking distractions or immersion in more pleasurable
or imaginative experiences. Now, it's interesting when I think about escapism,
because I feel like sometimes it's okay to escape a
little bit, because I know for me, I've done this,
(04:53):
and definitely like my friends appeers, they've done this as
well before. Where sometimes sitting in the pain of your
emotions can be a lot let alone loneliness, right, and
sometimes we do need to eject ourselves out a little
bit just to kind of soften the load a little bit.
But I think where it starts to become unhealthy and
more of a more of something that we should check
(05:15):
in on ourselves is when those patterns become really ingrained
and become a habit and a constant place that we
go to to escape. Because, yeah, it's just important that
we look at things in moderation, right.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, I completely agree with you. Avoidance or having some
sort of escape is not fundamentally bad or wrong in
and of itself. Lots of coping mechanisms can be really
quite healthy when they're used in a useful and healthy way.
But it's when we find that we're doing them in
excess or we're doing them very automatically, that we start
to question, is this maybe becoming an unhealthy way of
(05:49):
coping so.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
True and kind of links back to what you were
talking about how it can impact our physical health. Like,
I know when we look at more of the unhealthy
ways of escapism, there's you know, alcohol and substance abuse,
and you know, we're not actually thinking about the long
term impact of these temporary relief strategies, right, Like, We've
only got one body in this life and we do
need attend to it.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yes, Yes, And to build on that, I come back
to something I've said before, which is emotions serve purpose
and a function. Right, So if you are feeling lonely,
that's not going to be pleasant experience, and I understand
people would want to sometimes avoid and escape that, but
fundamentally that emotion is giving you a message, and that's
(06:34):
a really important message. Loneliness as a construct is this
notion that there is a difference between the social connections
that I have and the social connections that I desire
or that I long for. There is a disconnect there,
there is a gap, and so loneliness is giving us
the message of like, hey, Okay, I'm not where I
want to be, but let's do something about this.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I really love the way that you kind of unpacked
that and it actually gets me thinking about social isolation too.
Is there a difference between loneliness and social isolation.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yes, so social isolation is the more objective measure of
how connected we are to other people. So, for example,
if we're thinking about you know, maybe a farmer who
lives in a rural property and you know there's not
many people physically nearby, they're may be not very literate
when it comes to using the Internet and sort of
connecting with people online. We would say that objectively, this
(07:30):
person is somewhat socially isolated. So that's sort of an
objective measure as opposed to loneliness, which is subjective. It's
really about how I feel. I might have one hundred
friends in my friend group, but if I feel lonely,
it means I feel that disconnect between what I have
versus what I desire.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's so true, and it kind of stems on how
we are in such a digital age where we are
hyper connected, yet we're hearing more and more. Especially you
know in my circles when I've worked with teenagers that
people are feeling really disconnected.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes, it's the paradox of social media that you know
it was designed to be a way to connect with
people online, and I think for some people it really
can serve that, right. You know, when I think about
people who are, you know, maybe physically socially isolated, or
maybe are in sort of social groups where they can
(08:25):
find meaning and connection online with other similar people to themselves,
that can be fabulous for building a network, right when.
I guess when we're talking about adult friendships, it's not
just like the bestie, it's it's having a network of
people in my social space. So online spaces can be
great for that, but we just don't want them to
(08:45):
be a substitute for the in real life, in person
contact and connection that we need.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
It's interesting how you talk about human face to face
connection because it can sound so basic, right, like, oh,
connection leads to better health outcomes, you know. But I've
seen this time and time again in workshops teenage girls,
when we literally create circles, girls literally say I feel
so much lighter, I feel so much better, I don't
(09:12):
feel alone in what I'm going through. And this also
extends to my girlfriends. You know, we catch up for
a coffee, we sit down, we all just check in
and at the end we're all like, oh wow, I
feel so much better. It's like it is such a
basic concept, but it really is profound.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And I love that you're using those anecdotes of just
how you felt and how you feel when you connect
with your friends and those social circles. But again, I'm
gonna come back to the data and the research. We'll
have it it tells us a similar thing. Right, There's
the Hilda Study that's done every year, so it's a
household survey follows seventeen thousand people across Australia every year
(09:48):
and it actually asks about loneliness. And yes, it finds
that the more lonely that people feel, the higher rates
of psychological distress they have. But on the flip side,
the more people are feeling socially connected and physically have
people in their life, the less lone they feel. And
we know that there are positive health and mental health
outcomes attached to that. So yes, the feeling you have
(10:11):
absolutely reflects what the data tells us as well.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, it's so true because I think, look, it gets
me thinking about how I love to journal, like I
can journal till the cows come home, but sometimes I
genuinely find when I catch up with my girlfriends. It's
really helpful to have a soundboard because I'm like, oh,
you know, this has happened, and then I thought of this,
and then my girl gonna be like, hey, I think
you're actually being a bit hard on yourself or actually, yeah, no,
(10:35):
that's true. Sometimes we can spiral into our own echo chamber,
and that's why it's really helpful having someone else to
untangle things and help to step things out a little bit,
you know. So it is essential.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So this is probably the million dollar question that we've
all been waiting for. Why is it so hard to
make friends as an adult? Like, has COVID really screwed
us up with our ability to connect?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I think COVID has a part to play.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Absolutely, may be more so for younger people and kind
of teens right when they were really in those crucial
developmental phases in terms of making social connections and developing
those social skills. But you know, I think back to
being a kid in the playground at just like the
local park, and there's just like other kids playing there,
(11:24):
and you're like, hey, you want to play on the
monkey bars together? Or like you take turns going down
the slide and you don't even know this person, you
know anything about them, but suddenly your friends. Right, And
just how much easier that can be for us as
kids than as adults. Right, I'm not just going to
go up to someone at a coffee shop and be like, hey,
can I sit with you and chat? Because people would
think that was weird, But as kids it's not. And
(11:45):
it speaks to I think the lack of inhibition that
children have, right, they don't yet kind of have that.
And I'm talking little kids, right, like the five year olds.
They don't have that kind of social filter that's developed yet.
So there's something to be said for as adults, we
are so much more aware of ourselves and how others
(12:06):
might perceive us, and that concern about perception can be
a real barrier to us connecting with new people.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So true, And I'm glad you touched on essentially the
childlike confidence, right, because we all had it and it's
still in us. But it's true. It's like along the
way life happens, fractures happen, we start to forget who
we are, and we do have all these limitations from
stopping ourselves. So I'm glad we talk about.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
This, Yes, yes, and to build on that as well.
As you're saying life happens, we go through life, we
also experience breaches of trust, disappointments, people letting us down,
and so one of the factors that can then be
a barrier to us developing friendships as adults is sometimes
a lack of trust of other people. Again, as kids,
we don't think about can I trust this person or not.
(12:53):
We're just playing on the monkey bars together. But as
an adult, so I'm thinking, you know, if I'm going
to share parts of my life, parts of myself with
this person, I want to feel like I can trust them,
and trust takes time to build.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And it actually gets me thinking as you're talking about
I don't know if you know the concept of the
marble jar by Brene Brown. I used to talk about
this all the time in workshops with teams when we
would specifically talk about relationships and healthy relationships and pretty
much what Brene Brown talks about. It's like we have
a jar full of marbles and that kind of represents trust, right,
(13:28):
And then you know your best friend would have a
full jar of marbles, and then over time, you know
something's happen right, like you hear someone gossiping about you
who was supposed to be your best friend. So then
what happens subconsciously, like metaphorically, you take a bunch of
marbles out of the jar and then it's no longer full,
And it kind of just goes to this concept of
(13:49):
how when stuff happens in a friendship, exactly what you
were talking about before, around it takes time to build
that trust up again and sometimes it could be really
hard for that jar to be full again.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, which brings me maybe to the kind of question
of do we need the jar to be full as well?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right? True?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Can we have an interaction, a friendship and acquaintance with
someone where we don't have a full marble jar and
we don't kind of hold the expectation that people are
never going to let us down, never breach our trust,
never disappoint us. I mean, I would say that that's
probably a part of life that people will disappoint us
(14:29):
in ways and maybe at times we get hurt, marbles
come out of the jar, and maybe that could be okay.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, I think that's a really like adult perspective because
you're so mature here, lived and we learned, but it
is true, and it kind of does take that pressure
off and thinking that that person needs to tick all
the boxes, right. Yes, yeah, that's so true. And it
also gets me thinking about how and I know we've
(14:55):
talked about this in our episode around trauma in our
last season how you talked about wounds and how you
know people can be holding wounds from previous relationships. And
I know for me, especially in like the self development space,
there's a lot of things called like sisterhood wounds or
brotherhood wounds or feminine masculine wounds, And I find it
really fascinating because I know for me, I've definitely had
(15:20):
masculine wounds and learning to trust men again and that's
been a whole thing. But also, yeah, it just goes
to show how important it is to do that inner work,
you know, get the therapy you need, and do that
in a reflection, because we can carry that into future
relationships and it can cloud our judgment absolutely. So you
mentioned so that's one of the first things you feel
(15:41):
like one of the reasons why it can be so
hard to make adult friendships. We can harden our hearts, right.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
We can harden our hearts and then not be open
to those future future connections. Absolutely, yeah, and so so
trust those wounds that all comes into it. But then
on the other side, there's some real kind of practical
barriers to developing those adult friendships. And one of the
big ones is right like, as adults, we're busier than
when we were as the five year old's playing in
(16:09):
the park on the monkey bars, right, So, and the
trust takes time to build, The connections take time to build.
There was actually a bit of research done in the
US where some researchers tried to quantify how long it
actually takes to build a friendship, like if you could
figure out the amount of time, right, and so what
they found was that it takes roughly fifty hours of
(16:31):
shared contact to move from the category of sort of
acquaintances to friends whoa which feels like a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That's a lot of hours.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And I guess, you know, personality variables may differ there.
I don't feel like it would take me fifty hours,
but I feel like I'm more of an extroverted sort
of personality. But roughly fifty hours, so that's a lot
of time.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
That's a lot of time. Wow. It also reminds me
of when mel Robins spoke about this in her Left
Them Theory book. She said, give it a year, give
it a whole year. If you move into state or
you know, you're in a new chapter of your life,
and it does take the pressure off. You're like, oh, okay,
one year. Oh you're telling me and I don't need
to make new friends in a month. Like it really
(17:15):
does put things into perspective.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, wow, one year. I like that.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
So, I know we kind of touched on this a
little bit with the marble jar example. Do you think
why it's so hard for us to make friends as
an adult is because we put all this pressure on
needing this friend to tick all of these boxes.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Hmmm it could be.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think this is a really important place for us
to talk about different people, different friends kind of serving
different roles in terms of our social network. I use
the word social network.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Because friends can mean so many different things to different people. Right,
But if we think about it as a network, different
people sit in different spaces, right. So I might have
the friends who are my very close dear friends that
if they called me in the middle of the night,
I would rock up to their house and help them.
I know, I could get on the phone and cry
to them about anything and they won't judge me. You know,
(18:11):
we have those really close, deep, meaningful connections with certain people,
but not all friendships are going to be like that.
We might have the work friends that we enjoy seeing
in the workplace. We might have lunch together, we might
grab a coffee, but maybe the friendship doesn't extend much
beyond that. We might have the friends that we have
shared hobbies with. You know, if you're part of a
(18:32):
hiking group and you have the friends you hike with,
but you don't really see them outside of the hikes,
you know, there can be those sort of friends that
feel that need in us to have shared interests in things.
So different people can sit in different spaces in our lives,
and I think it's really important for us to kind
of have that map in our head of where different
people might sit, because that stops us placing expectations on
(18:56):
them that might be unrealistic. Now, it's not to say
that people can't move between those spaces. The hiking friend
could become that really close, deep and meaningful sort of friendship,
or they might just sort of stay in that category.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
And that's okay with this concept of a social network,
is that kind of what you play to as well.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, I definitely think about that. I've got, you know,
a few very close friends that I would talk to
about anything. I've got my friendship group from high school.
I've got friends who are psychologists, so when we get
together and catch up and talk, we're usually sort of
talking shop. And then I've got friends who are musicians,
(19:33):
and so I'll go to gigs with them, I'll hang
out with them, I'll go to their gigs.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So these these kind of different friends that sort of
fit in different spaces in my life, and I really
love that. I love being able to also bring people together,
you know, if I have a birthday and it's like, oh,
meet such and such. But I'm also okay with people
sitting in those different sort of spots in my social
network and you know, filling those those different spaces in
the way that they do.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I love that. It's getting me thinking about putting together
visual diagram or what my social network is. Yeah, we'll
watch this space everyone a report back. So something I
have loved throughout our episodes is how you like to
reference back to the cave man days. And I love
it honestly, because there is so much wisdom and gold
(20:19):
we can get from the ancient ways of living, like
our previous generations, like the way other cultures do things.
And it feels like as a society, back in the days,
there was more of this village mentality and tribe mentality,
which I feel like you have touched on before. But
now we've kind of gone into this more individualized culture.
So how do we actually go back to those ancient
(20:42):
ways of living of you know, that more communal way
of living.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah. I think this is such an interesting point and
topic and something that we need to address in society.
I don't know what the solution is, but you know,
I just think about the notion of people living on
their own these days. You know, we're in apartment buildings,
some people live alone and just in some way, is
how unnatural that is when we compare back to the
(21:07):
village days, where you maybe didn't just live with your family,
you lived with the village, with the tribe, with that community.
And I think a sense of community is a really
protective factor for us for our mental health. I know
we're talking about adult friendships here, but again I use
this word social network because they don't have to just
(21:28):
be friends, you know. It can be the auntie, the cousin,
the people in our sort of extended community that maybe
we wouldn't consider as friends, but we consider them as
part of our community. And as we're talking about this,
I'm thinking about cultural groups, right. You know, I have
Greek roots, and I would say the Greek community does
(21:49):
really well in sort of keeping connected. Would I call
everyone that I know in the Greek community my friend?
Probably not, but I feel connected to them as as.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
What.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
But there's that sense of shared belonging that I think
is really important for us. I don't know if you
have a similar thing with Sri Lankan community.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, I feel like it's an interesting one because it's
a I feel like, definitely within my family, like my
immediate family, there's like I think I've got cousins that
are quite distant and things like that. But I feel
growing up there was a very like there was a
very strong Shalankan community. But I it's funny, this is
a whole episode in itself, but I actually wasn't really
(22:34):
a part of that community for certain reasons. But I
feel like I have over the years now since reclaiming
more of my cultural roots. I have got a lot
more of friends that are Sri Lankan and you know,
the innovative, the creative, the entrepreneurs, and I think I've
found more of a community there.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Okayannis Asia. We always love a good roadmap from you,
So give us the roadmap on how do we make
friends as an adult?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
The roadmap? So this one is all about taking a
two prong approach. Okay. So the first part is building
the connections we already have. The second part is making
new friendships and new connections.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So I think both of these are really important for
us to boost our social network and to combat loneliness
and feel more socially connected with other people.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay, so what do we do with the current connections
we have?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
So I would encourage people and this is going to
sound potentially a bit artificial and unnatural, but stick with me. Yeah,
I'm going to encourage people to get a pen in
a favor or get a note out in your phone
and actually write a list of the people you know. Okay, acquaintances, friends,
(23:51):
people you've met at that networking drinks that one time.
It doesn't matter who they are, but people that you
have some sort of connection with, even if that is
a really kind of loose connection, even if they fall
into that acquaintance category not yet friends. Write out a
list of them if it helps group them, Group them
as the high school friends, you know, and maybe there's
(24:11):
a few in there that you haven't spoken to in
a while, you know, the work people that you've met
at some of those networking events that you might like
to connect with a little bit more. Just ride out
those lists and then take a step back and reflect on, Okay,
who out of these people do I feel like I
might like to get to know a bit better. I
might like to build that bond a bit with them.
(24:31):
Maybe it is that person I met at the networking
Maybe there is that high school friend that I really
liked when I was at school or in those early
UNI years, but then we kind of lost touch, you know,
we went our separate ways, but maybe we could reconnect.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I love that. It's a bit of a friend audit,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yes, Yes, that's a perfect way to put it. A
friend audit exactly. And so I think by doing this,
we can really see on paper who we've got right,
who we've got in that network, and where we can
work to build the connections. It's a very sort of
eckal logical way of going about it, and I think
(25:08):
people might have a little bit of a resistance to
this kind of idea because it feels like friendships should
just happen naturally. You know, you meet someone, you click,
it should be easy and natural to keep connected with them.
And I think that's a great ideal and it's beautiful
if it happens. But again I come back to we're
busy people with adult lives, and often we hear that
(25:28):
people would like to be more connected with others, but
it just sort of falls off the radar sometimes, and
that's no one's fault. It's just the way that life
is at the minute. So once you've got the list
written out, you've kind of identified some people that maybe
you'd like to be more connected with, think about what
would be the practical next step for you to actually
connect with this person more. Is it that you've got
(25:50):
them on Facebook and it's about sending them a message
being like hey, I see that you've had two kids,
or I see you doing some really cool things, or hey,
I was just thinking about you the other day when
I walked into the coffee shop, and I remembered that
funny time when you and I were teenagers and we
I don't know, whatever the story is, right, find some
kind of friendly link. Sometimes it's worth calling out, hey, look,
(26:10):
I know it's been a while and we haven't spoken,
but you cross my mind and I'm really curious to
know how you're doing. Be vulnerable, be genuine, be authentic
when it comes to actually what you say and how
you connect with that person. Sometimes we shy away from
the vulnerability, but how nice is it to receive a
message from someone you haven't spoken to in a long
(26:31):
time and for them to just say, hey, you know
what I was thinking about you, and so I'm messaging
you now and I hope things are well and if
you've got time, like, let's chat or I'd love to
be more connected with you than we are right now.
I think that's a beautiful thing to be able to
share with someone. And usually the person on the receiving
end feels quite good about getting that nice message. So true,
(26:51):
so I think, make a plan for what is the
best way to reconnect with these people. And again it's
going to sound a little bit artificial and maybe a
bit not natural, but it can work. A schedule for
connecting with people. Set fifteen minutes a day where you
focus on building social connections. So you send a text
(27:14):
to that person, you send a meme to that other person,
you send a voice note to someone, you give someone
a quick call, whatever works for you.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I'm not going to prescribe how people should connect with others,
but what I will say is set the time aside
fifteen minutes a day where your focus is connection with
other people.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I really love that. I've never thought of scheduling it in.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Put it on the to do list.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
There you go. Okay, So how about making new friends?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
This is probably for some people the harder one, right,
particularly if we're a little more introverted in personality, where
maybe a little more socially anxious. Meeting new people and
making new friends can feel quite daunting and overwhelming. And
this is where I come back to the solution being
in community. Find the groups the social community that fit
(28:05):
what you're interested in. So this is where I recommend
join the local book club, join the local run group,
the height group, the knitting group, whatever it is, whatever
you're interested in. Find spaces where people who are doing
things that you're interested in, are coming together with a
purpose because there's some sort of activity or tasks that
they're doing, but they're coming together as a collective. This
(28:28):
can be an easier way into making new friends where
there's a purpose. If you're doing an art class, for example,
you're focusing on doing the art, So if you're a
little sort of anxious and nervous, you can sort of
just stick to doing the painting that you're doing whilst
being around people, and over time that can feel a
bit easier to talk to others. But find the community
(28:49):
group that's doing something you're interested in and use that
as a platform to start to meet new people.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
It's so good when you say that, because it makes
total sense because if you go to these communities that
literally have the same shared interest, you're going to be
around people that have similar value and character traits that
you are looking for.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
So I love that, Yes, And what I found is,
and I just talk from personal experience here, people that
are in these groups generally are welcoming of new people.
I'll share a sort of bit of a personal story here.
I found myself quite interested in country music a couple
of years back before country music was cool, I'm just
(29:28):
gonna add that right as a country music bandwagon. But yes,
and I had for many years wanted to go to
Tamworth Country Music Festival, and I didn't have anyone to
go with, because no one that I knew at the
time was interested enough to take time out of out
of their schedule to go up to Tamworth spend a
week up there, you know, listening to country music twenty
(29:49):
four to seven. I really wanted to do that. I
connected with a few people, but I knew like maybe
two three people the first time I went up to
Tamworth Country Music Festival. But what I found was when
I went there, I made this whole new network of
friends and social connections, and it was beautiful. People were
very welcoming. People were happy to say hi, people were
(30:10):
happy to stand next to you at a gig and
have a little bit of a chat. And I think
that applies to other community groups as well, where communities
are generally welcoming of people being interested in the same
stuff that they're interested in. Also, I think there's been
a general recognition that as adults, it's been hard to
(30:32):
find connection with other people and to form friendships, and
so we've seen the rise of groups and platforms that
have been developed specifically for the purpose of adults building friendships.
So I know recently I've heard a lot about Time Left,
and there's another one called the First Round. So if
people are listening and don't quite know what these are,
(30:53):
they're essentially websites and apps where you can sign up
and essentially go have a drink or go have dinner
with say four or five other strangers. And the purpose
is that these other people who are also coming to
dinner or drinks also want to meet other people, so
you can fill in your details and they'll sort of
(31:14):
profile who you might be similar to to pair you
with those people to meet up with. Yeah, so awesome,
And I also think it's nice because it's a small group.
Sometimes it can feel a little bit more intimidating if
you're doing kind of a one on one, true sort
of new interaction with someone, But the idea of a
small group I think buffers that a little bit and
(31:35):
maybe makes it more likely that you're going to meet
someone that you get along with. But it's nice because
it takes some of the awkwardness and uncomfortableness out of
this feeling of wanting friends as an adult, wanting more
friends because everyone is there for the same purpose. Bierb
(31:56):
bib Bibby. I'm powerving a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
We've reached that time in our episode where we add
a question or dilemma from one of you. Allison is Anasasia.
Our first dilemma for this season is from Naomi.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
I'm in my twenties and I really want to make
new friends, but honestly, social stuff makes me super anxious.
I overthink everything, from what to say, how I'm coming across,
and whether people actually like me or just being polite.
Even casual group settings feel exhausting because I'm constantly in
my head trying to act normal.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I end up avoiding things altogether.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Then feel lonely and frustrated with myself and not trying.
I watch people who can just chat easily and feel
like I've missed some basic life skill. I don't want
this to hold me back forever, but I just don't
know where to start and how to get over this fear.
Is this something I can actually change or is it
just how I am?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Such a good question.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's a really good question, and it speaks a lot
to anxiety in terms of social situations, which we haven't
spoken much about in this episode yet. There's two key
things I'm gonna tell Naomi here and for anyone else
listening who can relate. The first one is it's really
important for us to get comfortable with the idea that
(33:20):
not everyone will like us.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh that's so hard, especially for the people pleases out there.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
A hard truth. Yeah, yeah, you know, our brain is
wired to want people to like us because, again Caveman days,
shout out, social connection was really important. It was important
for us to be part of the pack, part of
the group, because that offered us protection. We don't need
it in the same way nowadays, but our brain still
(33:47):
gets anxious if people don't like us. So becoming comfortable
with the notion that we won't be everyone's cup of
tea it's something that takes time and practice to become
comfortable with. And I often encourage people to think about
the flip side of that, which is we don't necessarily
we want everyone we meet to be our closest friend.
(34:08):
We might think people are a fine or sort of
be neutral towards them, or maybe they have personality characteristics
that sort of don't mesh well with ours. That's okay.
That doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean
we're a bad person. It just means that we're not
each other's cup of tea, and that's okay. So if
we can get comfortable with this notion that not everyone
we interact with is our person, that helps alleviate some
(34:30):
of the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And it's kind of like, it's not that one person's
better or the other. It's just we're different and we're
not aligned.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yes, we're different exactly. The second part is that anxiety
shines a spotlight on our own internal experience. So, as
Naomi was saying, when she's at these social events, she's
thinking about what she's saying, she's overthinking what she's saying,
she's trying to act normal. You know, anxiety shines that
spotlight on our internal experience. I can assure you, no
(35:01):
one is thinking about you more than you're thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So true, so true.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
No one is thinking back and being like, ah, Anastasia,
that time three years ago, you said that stupid thing
at that dinner party. I might be thinking about it.
No one else is right. Rumination is a very internal process,
and anxiety almost tells us that what we do is
more significant than it really is. So if we can
(35:26):
take that step back, give it perspective and go, you know,
I'm not overthinking what someone else did or said or
how they were right. We might think about something in
the moment, but then it comes and goes and we're
on to the next thing. So just remember that anxiety
shines that spotlight in a way that's not necessarily always
helpful for us. But I really like this question from Naomi.
(35:47):
I think it's a really important one. And actually we've
got an episode coming up this season all about social anxiety.
So if you feel like you're listening and you can
relate to this scenario, then tune into that future episode.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's gonna be a good one. Anastasia, can you reiterate
the main taker ways from today's episode.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
One hundred percent? First of all, having friends as an
adult is important not just for our sense of social connection,
but also for our physical health and our mental health. Second,
we are facing a loneliness epidemic, so having friends has
been more important than ever. Third, to build your sense
(36:26):
of social connection, take this too prong approach by strengthening
old friendships as well as building new ones. And finally,
it can be normal and natural to feel a little
anxious when connecting with new people. The more we do it,
the easier it becomes.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
If you have a burning question for us, there are
a few ways to get in touch with us, links
through in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we
present here should always take into account your own personal
medical history.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Next week's episode is all about our unhealthy relationships with
our phones and how we can stop our phones from
fucking up our lives. Stay tuned for that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Blackman, Executive producer is Naima Brown.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Sound design and editing by Tina.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Mattalov, and our social producer is Jemma Donaho. You can
find us on Instagram and TikTok at but Are You
Happy Pod. I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
And I'm doctor Anastagia heronus. The names and stories of
people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you.
We have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discuss today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(37:44):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Thanks for listening, See you next time you're listening to
a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on.
You're listening to I'mum with Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Welcome to the Finder Friend Hotline.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
How can I help? Hi, I'd like to.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Make some new friends please perfect?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Can I have your name Maddie? And are you a
child or a teenager? Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:17):
No, I'm an adult. Oh sorry, we don't serve as adults.
We've run out of friends for that age group. What Yeah,
you see people over the age of twenty kind of
have their groups sorted and they're just not looking for
new friends.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Oh for Mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashandi Dante. Welcome
to But Are You Happy? The podcast for people who've
mastered the art of the nervous laugh and emotionally avoided
eye contact.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
And I'm doctor Anastaga Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Have you ever wanted to try
and form new friendships as an adult but haven't been
sure how to go about it?
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Somewhere along the way, asking
someone out for a coffee to be friends started to
feel weirdly embarrassing.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Exactly what we're going to be talking about today. How
do you actually make new friends as an adult? And
why do strong, high quality friendships really matter more than ever, let's.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Get into it. So in our last season episode one,
we spoke about how to end friendships without ghosting, But
today we're looking at the other side of the equation,
how to make new friends, particularly as an adult, because
let's be honest, it can feel awkward and hard. But
before we unpack that, I'm interested to know why is
(01:37):
making adult friendships so important? Like why should we be
making it a priority.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
It's interesting because I think the fact that we're doing
a podcast episode on this topic goes to show that
there is an interest from the general public from adults
as to how to make, you know, adult friendships. We're
not doing a podcast on like how to scroll on
your phone more because everyone knows how to do that, right, Yeah,
exactly exactly. So I think actually what it speaks to
(02:06):
is the fact that people don't necessarily feel like they
are well connected as adults. Maybe they don't feel like
they have enough friends, maybe they don't feel like those
friendships are the sort of quality they want them to be.
And when I was doing the prep for this episode,
the first thing that actually came to mind about adult
friendships was the flip side of that, which is loneliness
and the fact that we're in this loneliness epidemic.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
So interesting that you touch on loneliness because it actually
gets me thinking a lot about how I don't know,
I've been in the social impact space for over ten years,
and I feel like there's a lot of mental health
charities and campaigns that are out there around building awareness
around loneliness. But it does get me thinking about have like,
(02:49):
have we actually made progress because people are getting more
and more lonely, Like it's a pandemic in a way.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Yes, yes, And the data would say that we're not
actually making much progress right over the last few years.
I think COVID years really sort of show on a
spotlight on feeling disconnected and feeling lonely. But since COVID,
you know, we're back to sort of normal social interactions.
But the data tells us that people are feeling more
lonely than ever. There was a study done by the
(03:18):
World Health Organization that said about one in six people
report really high levels of loneliness. And the thing about
loneliness is that it's not just an uncomfortable emotional experience,
but actually the research says that there's consequences for both
our physical and our mental health. So they say that
these days loneliness can be almost worse than smoking. You know,
(03:39):
loneliness is linked to premature death. All these actual like
physical health outcomes, negative outcomes, that is linked to loneliness.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Wow, it's wild when you unpack it like that, because
it makes sense how loneliness can impact mental health because
it's such a mental, emotional, internal process. But the fact
that you're saying that it impacts our physical health, it
shows that it is all connected, which I know we've
touched on before in previous episodes too. It's interesting too
because it gets me thinking about how loneliness. It reminds
(04:09):
me of this term escapism. And for anyone tuning in,
I have done a bit of homework, some research on
the definition of escapism and look, this is a bit
of a controversial opinion, but I did ask chatchybt, my
good old friend chatcibt mean Chatty. We have a good bond,
and this is what Chatty had to say. Escapism is
(04:31):
the tendency or desire to avoid facing reality, responsibilities, or
difficult emotions by seeking distractions or immersion in more pleasurable
or imaginative experiences. Now, it's interesting when I think about escapism,
because I feel like sometimes it's okay to escape a
little bit, because I know for me, I've done this,
(04:53):
and definitely like my friends appeers, they've done this as
well before. Where sometimes sitting in the pain of your
emotions can be a lot let alone loneliness, right, and
sometimes we do need to eject ourselves out a little
bit just to kind of soften the load a little bit.
But I think where it starts to become unhealthy and
more of a more of something that we should check
(05:15):
in on ourselves is when those patterns become really ingrained
and become a habit and a constant place that we
go to to escape. Because, yeah, it's just important that
we look at things in moderation, right.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, I completely agree with you. Avoidance or having some
sort of escape is not fundamentally bad or wrong in
and of itself. Lots of coping mechanisms can be really
quite healthy when they're used in a useful and healthy way.
But it's when we find that we're doing them in
excess or we're doing them very automatically, that we start
to question, is this maybe becoming an unhealthy way of
(05:49):
coping so.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
True and kind of links back to what you were
talking about how it can impact our physical health. Like,
I know when we look at more of the unhealthy
ways of escapism, there's you know, alcohol and substance abuse,
and you know, we're not actually thinking about the long
term impact of these temporary relief strategies, right, Like, We've
only got one body in this life and we do
need attend to it.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yes, Yes, And to build on that, I come back
to something I've said before, which is emotions serve purpose
and a function. Right, So if you are feeling lonely,
that's not going to be pleasant experience, and I understand
people would want to sometimes avoid and escape that, but
fundamentally that emotion is giving you a message, and that's
(06:34):
a really important message. Loneliness as a construct is this
notion that there is a difference between the social connections
that I have and the social connections that I desire
or that I long for. There is a disconnect there,
there is a gap, and so loneliness is giving us
the message of like, hey, Okay, I'm not where I
want to be, but let's do something about this.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
I really love the way that you kind of unpacked
that and it actually gets me thinking about social isolation too.
Is there a difference between loneliness and social isolation.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Yes, so social isolation is the more objective measure of
how connected we are to other people. So, for example,
if we're thinking about you know, maybe a farmer who
lives in a rural property and you know there's not
many people physically nearby, they're may be not very literate
when it comes to using the Internet and sort of
connecting with people online. We would say that objectively, this
(07:30):
person is somewhat socially isolated. So that's sort of an
objective measure as opposed to loneliness, which is subjective. It's
really about how I feel. I might have one hundred
friends in my friend group, but if I feel lonely,
it means I feel that disconnect between what I have
versus what I desire.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's so true, and it kind of stems on how
we are in such a digital age where we are
hyper connected, yet we're hearing more and more. Especially you
know in my circles when I've worked with teenagers that
people are feeling really disconnected.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Yes, it's the paradox of social media that you know
it was designed to be a way to connect with
people online, and I think for some people it really
can serve that, right. You know, when I think about
people who are, you know, maybe physically socially isolated, or
maybe are in sort of social groups where they can
(08:25):
find meaning and connection online with other similar people to themselves,
that can be fabulous for building a network, right when.
I guess when we're talking about adult friendships, it's not
just like the bestie, it's it's having a network of
people in my social space. So online spaces can be
great for that, but we just don't want them to
(08:45):
be a substitute for the in real life, in person
contact and connection that we need.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
It's interesting how you talk about human face to face
connection because it can sound so basic, right, like, oh,
connection leads to better health outcomes, you know. But I've
seen this time and time again in workshops teenage girls,
when we literally create circles, girls literally say I feel
so much lighter, I feel so much better, I don't
(09:12):
feel alone in what I'm going through. And this also
extends to my girlfriends. You know, we catch up for
a coffee, we sit down, we all just check in
and at the end we're all like, oh wow, I
feel so much better. It's like it is such a
basic concept, but it really is profound.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
And I love that you're using those anecdotes of just
how you felt and how you feel when you connect
with your friends and those social circles. But again, I'm
gonna come back to the data and the research. We'll
have it it tells us a similar thing. Right, There's
the Hilda Study that's done every year, so it's a
household survey follows seventeen thousand people across Australia every year
(09:48):
and it actually asks about loneliness. And yes, it finds
that the more lonely that people feel, the higher rates
of psychological distress they have. But on the flip side,
the more people are feeling socially connected and physically have
people in their life, the less lone they feel. And
we know that there are positive health and mental health
outcomes attached to that. So yes, the feeling you have
(10:11):
absolutely reflects what the data tells us as well.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah, it's so true because I think, look, it gets
me thinking about how I love to journal, like I
can journal till the cows come home, but sometimes I
genuinely find when I catch up with my girlfriends. It's
really helpful to have a soundboard because I'm like, oh,
you know, this has happened, and then I thought of this,
and then my girl gonna be like, hey, I think
you're actually being a bit hard on yourself or actually, yeah, no,
(10:35):
that's true. Sometimes we can spiral into our own echo chamber,
and that's why it's really helpful having someone else to
untangle things and help to step things out a little bit,
you know. So it is essential.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
So this is probably the million dollar question that we've
all been waiting for. Why is it so hard to
make friends as an adult? Like, has COVID really screwed
us up with our ability to connect?
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I think COVID has a part to play.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Absolutely, may be more so for younger people and kind
of teens right when they were really in those crucial
developmental phases in terms of making social connections and developing
those social skills. But you know, I think back to
being a kid in the playground at just like the
local park, and there's just like other kids playing there,
(11:24):
and you're like, hey, you want to play on the
monkey bars together? Or like you take turns going down
the slide and you don't even know this person, you
know anything about them, but suddenly your friends. Right, And
just how much easier that can be for us as
kids than as adults. Right, I'm not just going to
go up to someone at a coffee shop and be like, hey,
can I sit with you and chat? Because people would
think that was weird, But as kids it's not. And
(11:45):
it speaks to I think the lack of inhibition that
children have, right, they don't yet kind of have that.
And I'm talking little kids, right, like the five year olds.
They don't have that kind of social filter that's developed yet.
So there's something to be said for as adults, we
are so much more aware of ourselves and how others
(12:06):
might perceive us, and that concern about perception can be
a real barrier to us connecting with new people.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
So true, And I'm glad you touched on essentially the
childlike confidence, right, because we all had it and it's
still in us. But it's true. It's like along the
way life happens, fractures happen, we start to forget who
we are, and we do have all these limitations from
stopping ourselves. So I'm glad we talk about.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
This, Yes, yes, and to build on that as well.
As you're saying life happens, we go through life, we
also experience breaches of trust, disappointments, people letting us down,
and so one of the factors that can then be
a barrier to us developing friendships as adults is sometimes
a lack of trust of other people. Again, as kids,
we don't think about can I trust this person or not.
(12:53):
We're just playing on the monkey bars together. But as
an adult, so I'm thinking, you know, if I'm going
to share parts of my life, parts of myself with
this person, I want to feel like I can trust them,
and trust takes time to build.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
And it actually gets me thinking as you're talking about
I don't know if you know the concept of the
marble jar by Brene Brown. I used to talk about
this all the time in workshops with teams when we
would specifically talk about relationships and healthy relationships and pretty
much what Brene Brown talks about. It's like we have
a jar full of marbles and that kind of represents trust, right,
(13:28):
And then you know your best friend would have a
full jar of marbles, and then over time, you know
something's happen right, like you hear someone gossiping about you
who was supposed to be your best friend. So then
what happens subconsciously, like metaphorically, you take a bunch of
marbles out of the jar and then it's no longer full,
And it kind of just goes to this concept of
(13:49):
how when stuff happens in a friendship, exactly what you
were talking about before, around it takes time to build
that trust up again and sometimes it could be really
hard for that jar to be full again.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, which brings me maybe to the kind of question
of do we need the jar to be full as well?
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Right? True?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Can we have an interaction, a friendship and acquaintance with
someone where we don't have a full marble jar and
we don't kind of hold the expectation that people are
never going to let us down, never breach our trust,
never disappoint us. I mean, I would say that that's
probably a part of life that people will disappoint us
(14:29):
in ways and maybe at times we get hurt, marbles
come out of the jar, and maybe that could be okay.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, I think that's a really like adult perspective because
you're so mature here, lived and we learned, but it
is true, and it kind of does take that pressure
off and thinking that that person needs to tick all
the boxes, right. Yes, yeah, that's so true. And it
also gets me thinking about how and I know we've
(14:55):
talked about this in our episode around trauma in our
last season how you talked about wounds and how you
know people can be holding wounds from previous relationships. And
I know for me, especially in like the self development space,
there's a lot of things called like sisterhood wounds or
brotherhood wounds or feminine masculine wounds, And I find it
really fascinating because I know for me, I've definitely had
(15:20):
masculine wounds and learning to trust men again and that's
been a whole thing. But also, yeah, it just goes
to show how important it is to do that inner work,
you know, get the therapy you need, and do that
in a reflection, because we can carry that into future
relationships and it can cloud our judgment absolutely. So you
mentioned so that's one of the first things you feel
(15:41):
like one of the reasons why it can be so
hard to make adult friendships. We can harden our hearts, right.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
We can harden our hearts and then not be open
to those future future connections. Absolutely, yeah, and so so
trust those wounds that all comes into it. But then
on the other side, there's some real kind of practical
barriers to developing those adult friendships. And one of the
big ones is right like, as adults, we're busier than
when we were as the five year old's playing in
(16:09):
the park on the monkey bars, right, So, and the
trust takes time to build, The connections take time to build.
There was actually a bit of research done in the
US where some researchers tried to quantify how long it
actually takes to build a friendship, like if you could
figure out the amount of time, right, and so what
they found was that it takes roughly fifty hours of
(16:31):
shared contact to move from the category of sort of
acquaintances to friends whoa which feels like a lot.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
That's a lot of hours.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And I guess, you know, personality variables may differ there.
I don't feel like it would take me fifty hours,
but I feel like I'm more of an extroverted sort
of personality. But roughly fifty hours, so that's a lot
of time.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
That's a lot of time. Wow. It also reminds me
of when mel Robins spoke about this in her Left
Them Theory book. She said, give it a year, give
it a whole year. If you move into state or
you know, you're in a new chapter of your life,
and it does take the pressure off. You're like, oh, okay,
one year. Oh you're telling me and I don't need
to make new friends in a month. Like it really
(17:15):
does put things into perspective.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Yeah, wow, one year. I like that.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
So, I know we kind of touched on this a
little bit with the marble jar example. Do you think
why it's so hard for us to make friends as
an adult is because we put all this pressure on
needing this friend to tick all of these boxes.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Hmmm it could be.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I think this is a really important place for us
to talk about different people, different friends kind of serving
different roles in terms of our social network. I use
the word social network.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
Because friends can mean so many different things to different people. Right,
But if we think about it as a network, different
people sit in different spaces, right. So I might have
the friends who are my very close dear friends that
if they called me in the middle of the night,
I would rock up to their house and help them.
I know, I could get on the phone and cry
to them about anything and they won't judge me. You know,
(18:11):
we have those really close, deep, meaningful connections with certain people,
but not all friendships are going to be like that.
We might have the work friends that we enjoy seeing
in the workplace. We might have lunch together, we might
grab a coffee, but maybe the friendship doesn't extend much
beyond that. We might have the friends that we have
shared hobbies with. You know, if you're part of a
(18:32):
hiking group and you have the friends you hike with,
but you don't really see them outside of the hikes,
you know, there can be those sort of friends that
feel that need in us to have shared interests in things.
So different people can sit in different spaces in our lives,
and I think it's really important for us to kind
of have that map in our head of where different
people might sit, because that stops us placing expectations on
(18:56):
them that might be unrealistic. Now, it's not to say
that people can't move between those spaces. The hiking friend
could become that really close, deep and meaningful sort of friendship,
or they might just sort of stay in that category.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
And that's okay with this concept of a social network,
is that kind of what you play to as well.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, I definitely think about that. I've got, you know,
a few very close friends that I would talk to
about anything. I've got my friendship group from high school.
I've got friends who are psychologists, so when we get
together and catch up and talk, we're usually sort of
talking shop. And then I've got friends who are musicians,
(19:33):
and so I'll go to gigs with them, I'll hang
out with them, I'll go to their gigs.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
You know.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
So these these kind of different friends that sort of
fit in different spaces in my life, and I really
love that. I love being able to also bring people together,
you know, if I have a birthday and it's like, oh,
meet such and such. But I'm also okay with people
sitting in those different sort of spots in my social
network and you know, filling those those different spaces in
the way that they do.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
I love that. It's getting me thinking about putting together
visual diagram or what my social network is. Yeah, we'll
watch this space everyone a report back. So something I
have loved throughout our episodes is how you like to
reference back to the cave man days. And I love
it honestly, because there is so much wisdom and gold
(20:19):
we can get from the ancient ways of living, like
our previous generations, like the way other cultures do things.
And it feels like as a society, back in the days,
there was more of this village mentality and tribe mentality,
which I feel like you have touched on before. But
now we've kind of gone into this more individualized culture.
So how do we actually go back to those ancient
(20:42):
ways of living of you know, that more communal way
of living.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Yeah. I think this is such an interesting point and
topic and something that we need to address in society.
I don't know what the solution is, but you know,
I just think about the notion of people living on
their own these days. You know, we're in apartment buildings,
some people live alone and just in some way, is
how unnatural that is when we compare back to the
(21:07):
village days, where you maybe didn't just live with your family,
you lived with the village, with the tribe, with that community.
And I think a sense of community is a really
protective factor for us for our mental health. I know
we're talking about adult friendships here, but again I use
this word social network because they don't have to just
(21:28):
be friends, you know. It can be the auntie, the cousin,
the people in our sort of extended community that maybe
we wouldn't consider as friends, but we consider them as
part of our community. And as we're talking about this,
I'm thinking about cultural groups, right. You know, I have
Greek roots, and I would say the Greek community does
(21:49):
really well in sort of keeping connected. Would I call
everyone that I know in the Greek community my friend?
Probably not, but I feel connected to them as as.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
What.
Speaker 2 (22:04):
But there's that sense of shared belonging that I think
is really important for us. I don't know if you
have a similar thing with Sri Lankan community.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Yeah, I feel like it's an interesting one because it's
a I feel like, definitely within my family, like my
immediate family, there's like I think I've got cousins that
are quite distant and things like that. But I feel
growing up there was a very like there was a
very strong Shalankan community. But I it's funny, this is
a whole episode in itself, but I actually wasn't really
(22:34):
a part of that community for certain reasons. But I
feel like I have over the years now since reclaiming
more of my cultural roots. I have got a lot
more of friends that are Sri Lankan and you know,
the innovative, the creative, the entrepreneurs, and I think I've
found more of a community there.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Okayannis Asia. We always love a good roadmap from you,
So give us the roadmap on how do we make
friends as an adult?
Speaker 2 (23:01):
The roadmap? So this one is all about taking a
two prong approach. Okay. So the first part is building
the connections we already have. The second part is making
new friendships and new connections.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
So I think both of these are really important for
us to boost our social network and to combat loneliness
and feel more socially connected with other people.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Okay, so what do we do with the current connections
we have?
Speaker 2 (23:29):
So I would encourage people and this is going to
sound potentially a bit artificial and unnatural, but stick with me. Yeah,
I'm going to encourage people to get a pen in
a favor or get a note out in your phone
and actually write a list of the people you know. Okay, acquaintances, friends,
(23:51):
people you've met at that networking drinks that one time.
It doesn't matter who they are, but people that you
have some sort of connection with, even if that is
a really kind of loose connection, even if they fall
into that acquaintance category not yet friends. Write out a
list of them if it helps group them, Group them
as the high school friends, you know, and maybe there's
(24:11):
a few in there that you haven't spoken to in
a while, you know, the work people that you've met
at some of those networking events that you might like
to connect with a little bit more. Just ride out
those lists and then take a step back and reflect on, Okay,
who out of these people do I feel like I
might like to get to know a bit better. I
might like to build that bond a bit with them.
(24:31):
Maybe it is that person I met at the networking
Maybe there is that high school friend that I really
liked when I was at school or in those early
UNI years, but then we kind of lost touch, you know,
we went our separate ways, but maybe we could reconnect.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
I love that. It's a bit of a friend audit,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Yes, Yes, that's a perfect way to put it. A
friend audit exactly. And so I think by doing this,
we can really see on paper who we've got right,
who we've got in that network, and where we can
work to build the connections. It's a very sort of
eckal logical way of going about it, and I think
(25:08):
people might have a little bit of a resistance to
this kind of idea because it feels like friendships should
just happen naturally. You know, you meet someone, you click,
it should be easy and natural to keep connected with them.
And I think that's a great ideal and it's beautiful
if it happens. But again I come back to we're
busy people with adult lives, and often we hear that
(25:28):
people would like to be more connected with others, but
it just sort of falls off the radar sometimes, and
that's no one's fault. It's just the way that life
is at the minute. So once you've got the list
written out, you've kind of identified some people that maybe
you'd like to be more connected with, think about what
would be the practical next step for you to actually
connect with this person more. Is it that you've got
(25:50):
them on Facebook and it's about sending them a message
being like hey, I see that you've had two kids,
or I see you doing some really cool things, or hey,
I was just thinking about you the other day when
I walked into the coffee shop, and I remembered that
funny time when you and I were teenagers and we
I don't know, whatever the story is, right, find some
kind of friendly link. Sometimes it's worth calling out, hey, look,
(26:10):
I know it's been a while and we haven't spoken,
but you cross my mind and I'm really curious to
know how you're doing. Be vulnerable, be genuine, be authentic
when it comes to actually what you say and how
you connect with that person. Sometimes we shy away from
the vulnerability, but how nice is it to receive a
message from someone you haven't spoken to in a long
(26:31):
time and for them to just say, hey, you know
what I was thinking about you, and so I'm messaging
you now and I hope things are well and if
you've got time, like, let's chat or I'd love to
be more connected with you than we are right now.
I think that's a beautiful thing to be able to
share with someone. And usually the person on the receiving
end feels quite good about getting that nice message. So true,
(26:51):
so I think, make a plan for what is the
best way to reconnect with these people. And again it's
going to sound a little bit artificial and maybe a
bit not natural, but it can work. A schedule for
connecting with people. Set fifteen minutes a day where you
focus on building social connections. So you send a text
(27:14):
to that person, you send a meme to that other person,
you send a voice note to someone, you give someone
a quick call, whatever works for you.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
I'm not going to prescribe how people should connect with others,
but what I will say is set the time aside
fifteen minutes a day where your focus is connection with
other people.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
I really love that. I've never thought of scheduling it in.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
Put it on the to do list.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
There you go. Okay, So how about making new friends?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
This is probably for some people the harder one, right,
particularly if we're a little more introverted in personality, where
maybe a little more socially anxious. Meeting new people and
making new friends can feel quite daunting and overwhelming. And
this is where I come back to the solution being
in community. Find the groups the social community that fit
(28:05):
what you're interested in. So this is where I recommend
join the local book club, join the local run group,
the height group, the knitting group, whatever it is, whatever
you're interested in. Find spaces where people who are doing
things that you're interested in, are coming together with a
purpose because there's some sort of activity or tasks that
they're doing, but they're coming together as a collective. This
(28:28):
can be an easier way into making new friends where
there's a purpose. If you're doing an art class, for example,
you're focusing on doing the art, So if you're a
little sort of anxious and nervous, you can sort of
just stick to doing the painting that you're doing whilst
being around people, and over time that can feel a
bit easier to talk to others. But find the community
(28:49):
group that's doing something you're interested in and use that
as a platform to start to meet new people.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
It's so good when you say that, because it makes
total sense because if you go to these communities that
literally have the same shared interest, you're going to be
around people that have similar value and character traits that
you are looking for.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
So I love that, Yes, And what I found is,
and I just talk from personal experience here, people that
are in these groups generally are welcoming of new people.
I'll share a sort of bit of a personal story here.
I found myself quite interested in country music a couple
of years back before country music was cool, I'm just
(29:28):
gonna add that right as a country music bandwagon. But yes,
and I had for many years wanted to go to
Tamworth Country Music Festival, and I didn't have anyone to
go with, because no one that I knew at the
time was interested enough to take time out of out
of their schedule to go up to Tamworth spend a
week up there, you know, listening to country music twenty
(29:49):
four to seven. I really wanted to do that. I
connected with a few people, but I knew like maybe
two three people the first time I went up to
Tamworth Country Music Festival. But what I found was when
I went there, I made this whole new network of
friends and social connections, and it was beautiful. People were
very welcoming. People were happy to say hi, people were
(30:10):
happy to stand next to you at a gig and
have a little bit of a chat. And I think
that applies to other community groups as well, where communities
are generally welcoming of people being interested in the same
stuff that they're interested in. Also, I think there's been
a general recognition that as adults, it's been hard to
(30:32):
find connection with other people and to form friendships, and
so we've seen the rise of groups and platforms that
have been developed specifically for the purpose of adults building friendships.
So I know recently I've heard a lot about Time Left,
and there's another one called the First Round. So if
people are listening and don't quite know what these are,
(30:53):
they're essentially websites and apps where you can sign up
and essentially go have a drink or go have dinner
with say four or five other strangers. And the purpose
is that these other people who are also coming to
dinner or drinks also want to meet other people, so
you can fill in your details and they'll sort of
(31:14):
profile who you might be similar to to pair you
with those people to meet up with. Yeah, so awesome,
And I also think it's nice because it's a small group.
Sometimes it can feel a little bit more intimidating if
you're doing kind of a one on one, true sort
of new interaction with someone, But the idea of a
small group I think buffers that a little bit and
(31:35):
maybe makes it more likely that you're going to meet
someone that you get along with. But it's nice because
it takes some of the awkwardness and uncomfortableness out of
this feeling of wanting friends as an adult, wanting more
friends because everyone is there for the same purpose. Bierb
(31:56):
bib Bibby. I'm powerving a serious crisis. BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
We've reached that time in our episode where we add
a question or dilemma from one of you. Allison is Anasasia.
Our first dilemma for this season is from Naomi.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
I'm in my twenties and I really want to make
new friends, but honestly, social stuff makes me super anxious.
I overthink everything, from what to say, how I'm coming across,
and whether people actually like me or just being polite.
Even casual group settings feel exhausting because I'm constantly in
my head trying to act normal.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
I end up avoiding things altogether.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
Then feel lonely and frustrated with myself and not trying.
I watch people who can just chat easily and feel
like I've missed some basic life skill. I don't want
this to hold me back forever, but I just don't
know where to start and how to get over this fear.
Is this something I can actually change or is it
just how I am?
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Such a good question.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
It's a really good question, and it speaks a lot
to anxiety in terms of social situations, which we haven't
spoken much about in this episode yet. There's two key
things I'm gonna tell Naomi here and for anyone else
listening who can relate. The first one is it's really
important for us to get comfortable with the idea that
(33:20):
not everyone will like us.
Speaker 1 (33:21):
Oh that's so hard, especially for the people pleases out there.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
A hard truth. Yeah, yeah, you know, our brain is
wired to want people to like us because, again Caveman days,
shout out, social connection was really important. It was important
for us to be part of the pack, part of
the group, because that offered us protection. We don't need
it in the same way nowadays, but our brain still
(33:47):
gets anxious if people don't like us. So becoming comfortable
with the notion that we won't be everyone's cup of
tea it's something that takes time and practice to become
comfortable with. And I often encourage people to think about
the flip side of that, which is we don't necessarily
we want everyone we meet to be our closest friend.
(34:08):
We might think people are a fine or sort of
be neutral towards them, or maybe they have personality characteristics
that sort of don't mesh well with ours. That's okay.
That doesn't mean they're a bad person. It doesn't mean
we're a bad person. It just means that we're not
each other's cup of tea, and that's okay. So if
we can get comfortable with this notion that not everyone
we interact with is our person, that helps alleviate some
(34:30):
of the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Hmm.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
And it's kind of like, it's not that one person's
better or the other. It's just we're different and we're
not aligned.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Yes, we're different exactly. The second part is that anxiety
shines a spotlight on our own internal experience. So, as
Naomi was saying, when she's at these social events, she's
thinking about what she's saying, she's overthinking what she's saying,
she's trying to act normal. You know, anxiety shines that
spotlight on our internal experience. I can assure you, no
(35:01):
one is thinking about you more than you're thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
So true, so true.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
No one is thinking back and being like, ah, Anastasia,
that time three years ago, you said that stupid thing
at that dinner party. I might be thinking about it.
No one else is right. Rumination is a very internal process,
and anxiety almost tells us that what we do is
more significant than it really is. So if we can
(35:26):
take that step back, give it perspective and go, you know,
I'm not overthinking what someone else did or said or
how they were right. We might think about something in
the moment, but then it comes and goes and we're
on to the next thing. So just remember that anxiety
shines that spotlight in a way that's not necessarily always
helpful for us. But I really like this question from Naomi.
(35:47):
I think it's a really important one. And actually we've
got an episode coming up this season all about social anxiety.
So if you feel like you're listening and you can
relate to this scenario, then tune into that future episode.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
It's gonna be a good one. Anastasia, can you reiterate
the main taker ways from today's episode.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
One hundred percent? First of all, having friends as an
adult is important not just for our sense of social connection,
but also for our physical health and our mental health. Second,
we are facing a loneliness epidemic, so having friends has
been more important than ever. Third, to build your sense
(36:26):
of social connection, take this too prong approach by strengthening
old friendships as well as building new ones. And finally,
it can be normal and natural to feel a little
anxious when connecting with new people. The more we do it,
the easier it becomes.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
If you have a burning question for us, there are
a few ways to get in touch with us, links
through in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas that we
present here should always take into account your own personal
medical history.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Next week's episode is all about our unhealthy relationships with
our phones and how we can stop our phones from
fucking up our lives. Stay tuned for that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Blackman, Executive producer is Naima Brown.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Sound design and editing by Tina.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Mattalov, and our social producer is Jemma Donaho. You can
find us on Instagram and TikTok at but Are You
Happy Pod. I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
And I'm doctor Anastagia heronus. The names and stories of
people discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you.
We have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discuss today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(37:44):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (37:46):
Thanks for listening, See you next time you're listening to
a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (37:55):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on.
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