Jess & David [Part 1 of 2]: Different Definitions Of Cheating

When it's just Jess and David, everything is fabulous. But in public, Jess feels like a secret. David doesn't post photos of them, he hasn't introduced her to his family, and she barely knows his friends. Jess is left feeling like a "side piece," good enough for him, but not for his image.

In this session, a couple confronts the painful gap between their private connection and their public life. They’re facing different definitions of what constitutes cheating, a history of trust issues, and the raw feeling of being ashamed by the person you love.

Listen to the second part of Jess & David's session here

Resources (Australia-only)

• 1800RESPECT: The national domestic, family, and sexual violence counselling, information, and support service.
• Beyond Blue: For support with anxiety, depression, and suicide prevention.
• Lifeline Australia: For 24/7 crisis support and suicide prevention services.
• Motivated Minds: Learn more about host Sarah Bays’ practice.
• Relationships Australia: A leading provider of relationship support services for individuals, families, and communities.

The End Bits

• Want To Be On This Is Why We Fight? Apply here.
• Host: Sarah Bays
• Executive Producer: Naima Brown
• Studio Engineer: Lu Hill
• Audio production: Thom Lion and Jacob Round
• Production support: Leah Porges and Coco Lavigne
• Follow This Is Why We Fight on Instagram for sneak peeks and more relat

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast. Mamma Maya acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on. Hello, but are you happy? Listeners?
Co host Anastasia her owners here And if you've been
enjoying learning about psychology and human behavior from me, we
have a new podcast here at Mamma Mia that I

(00:33):
know you will enjoy. It's called This Is Why We Fight,
the first and only podcast that lets you listen in
to real couples and therapy sessions. It's hosted by clinical
psychotherapist Sarah Bays and in this series, she works with
couples and family members who are dealing with some big
life challenges. We're dropping episode one here for you to

(00:56):
listen to. This is Jess and David who are in
a relationship where there are different definitions of cheating, issues
around shame and trust, and so much more. I hope
you enjoy Here's This Is Why We Fight.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters.
This podcast was recorded.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
On So for me, I feel that he is ashamed
of me, embarrassed of me. I feel like I'm good
enough for him, but not for his public image, and
that really hurts, and that makes me feel really insecure.
He doesn't post anything of us on his social media.

(01:39):
He hasn't introduced me to his family. You know, I
don't know many of his friends. I feel at times
like I'm a side peace.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
Welcome to This is why we fight real people, real problems,
real therapy. My name is Sarah Bays. I'm a clinical
psychotherapist with over a decade of training working with individuals, couples,
and families.

Speaker 1 (02:07):
This series has been.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
Designed to allow you, our listeners, to sit in on
the therapy sessions of other people who are grappling with
the challenges in their relationships, because I firmly believe that
we can learn so much from each other. Today you're
meeting Jess and David PERF couple. Jess and David are
in their forties. They're not married, but they've been in

(02:28):
a long term relationship for some time and they both
have children from previous relationships. Jess is an office administrator
and David, originally from New Caledonia, is a music teacher.
Jess and David are here today to address a number
of things that have been challenging their relationship from different
definitions of cheating to trust and boundaries. Here's session one

(02:50):
with Jess and David. All right, hello Jess and David.
It's lovely to see you guys.

Speaker 4 (02:57):
Hello. Hi.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
I guess what i'd usually like to start with, or
it can be helpful for me to know if you've
had experience in therapy as a couple before, and if so,
what went well, what didn't go well?

Speaker 3 (03:10):
Okay, So we've tried therapy twice. The first time was
a bizarre experience. David was running a little bit late,
and I sat there and chatted to the therapist for
a couple of minutes, and then he came along and
he was probably there for like, it felt like about

(03:33):
maybe five or ten minutes, and the therapist said, oh, look,
she put her pen down and she said, I don't
think you two should be together. And we kind of
looked at each other and we didn't know what to do,
and we left and we gave each other a hug
and we were like processing it, and then she walked
past us, and it was just like really weird because

(03:55):
it was an evening appointment, so we must have been
her last one.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
It's just all very awkward and what a horrible first experience.
It was. It was for a couple of two. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
The second one did not go any better. He initiated
it because he thought we should we should give it
another go.

Speaker 2 (04:14):
So sorry, David initiated it.

Speaker 3 (04:16):
He did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And so he did all
the booking and everything like that. And I went there
and I ended up walking out because I was just
so triggered by something that he said.

Speaker 4 (04:32):
It is what I said, and I guess it happens
also when I have an argument together, but it was
there in front of someone else.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
Okay, so this is something that happens at home when
you guys argue sometimes. Yeah, So sometimes Jess will walk away.

Speaker 4 (04:47):
Or not walk away. It usually goes you know, it
doesn't end up well. We have like really bad arguments
in that situation. But here she she wanted to go away.
I guess it, you know, because in front of someone
else it's probably better.

Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, Jess, can you tell me a little bit about
what happened for you in terms of the walking out. Yes,
So we.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
Had not long got back together. We had separated for
about six months, and during that time he had been
very close to another woman who is very, very different
from me, and her outlook on life is different, her

(05:34):
morals are different, and basically that left me feeling really
insecure because I'm like, if he wants this in a woman,
how is he ever going to be? You know, how
am I ever going to be enough for him? Because
that's not who I am, That's not who I want
to be. And it left me feel really upset. And

(05:56):
when we went into this therapy session, the therapist was
trying to get background from us, and so I raised
this other woman as being a big issue for me
because it was leaving me feeling very insecure because I

(06:17):
was also surprised that he would be interested in someone
so different from me in that way. So it left
me wondering also, not only am I not gonna be
enough for him? But who actually is this guy? Because
we're so different. And the first thing he did was

(06:42):
start talking about her and his connection to her and
how lovely she is, and I'm just like, I I
just thought, hang on, we're supposed to be here for.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Us and in that moment because rather than going into
the actual situation, because I want us to be able
to set up what we can do today, if you know,
because sometimes therapy is about hearing things that are uncomfortable, painful, difficult,
might make you angry. Yeah, like, what could we do today?
So there was something there where Yeah, you've been triggered,

(07:18):
really upset. Is there something that we could do if
a similar thing occurred? Is there something that you could
say to us? Is there something that you could do
that you think could help kind of bring things back down?
Or I guess we're trying to avoid the conversation being kind.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
Are you taking to me?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
To both of you? Yeah, both of you.

Speaker 4 (07:42):
Well, I don't know. Actually it's a bit of an
interesting one because my point was not to talk nicely
about that woman. My point was to explain why I,
Like I said, I was saying, why, you know, was
I attracted to her for a while? Not very long really,
but uh, and I just try to explain. I think

(08:05):
it just just heard something different to what I was
saying because she was concentrating on her you know, the
issue at hand. I was just trying to explain what happened.
And I mean, to be honest, a DoD like they
say that, you know, I mean it's suit that I want,

(08:25):
and you know, I don't think you have to worry okay.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
So if we bring it back to so there's that
reassurance there, which I think is lovely David, And I think,
you know, I'm hoping for you, Jess that coming into
today there is a sense of, or at least a
hope to be able to work through some of the
difficult conversations without it having to abruptly end. I think
breaks are okay, Pauses are okay. You know, if you

(08:52):
need to step out or if Dave, you know this
goes theme for you. If anybody needs to call time
for just a little break and just recenter, come back in,
that's completely fine. I guess it's sort of looking at
the commitment between the two of you is I don't
have to say things that you like or say things
that make you happy, but I do have to try

(09:13):
and give you the space if you need to calm
down so that we can continue the conversation. Does that
feel okay for both of you?

Speaker 3 (09:22):
It absolutely does. And I think for me, I'm you know,
I'm in my forties and i've you know, we've obviously
both had relationships prior to this. In my relationships, I
was cheated on multiple times. When I picked up on it,

(09:45):
I was what we now call gas lid into believing
that you know, I was imagining things I wasn't And
so I know in myself that I'm on high alert
and that I'm easily triggered, and I know that I

(10:06):
need a lot more reassurance than perhaps most guys would
expect to have to give because of that. But I
just I feel like I really need him to understand
that if he is able to give me that reassurance
when I'm triggered, if he's able to continue to make

(10:28):
me feel safe, to remind me that he's choosing me,
then that will build up enough in my bank that
I can not worry so much about these other things
or not look at something else and perhaps jump to

(10:49):
what might not be the case.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
And I'm just assuming, just is this one of the
reasons that you wanted to start this process again, because
I think it was you who wanted to come into
this couple's therapy process. Is this one of the things
you wanted to address?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
It absolutely is, because we've been together on and off
for such a long time, and it's the same issues
again and again and again, and it's the same issues
for me and for him. I believe it's the same
issues as well. He'll talk soon.

Speaker 4 (11:26):
Yeah, I'd like to before I forget, because I always
gonna answer something to d but you finished off.

Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:33):
I just I know, I know nobody's perfect, and I
know I fit into that category of course too. But
I just feel that when you love someone, you give
them what they need, especially if they know that they
need it. And then if I had that extra reassurance,
extra security, extra love, I would feel more regulated and

(11:59):
be able to let go of these worries more easily.
But that takes time. And every time I get upset
by something or triggered, instead of taking that opportunity to
offer me that reassurance and therefore make me feel safe

(12:19):
and actually make me feel closer to him, I feel
like he feels that I don't trust him, I'm attacking him,
I'm dragging up the past, and it ends up making
him upset and he escalates as well, and it's not
healthy for either of us, and we really need to
be able to move past that.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
Ye can I yeah, Dave, Because.

Speaker 4 (12:42):
I mean, Jess is actually a very good communicator. She
knows I said that several times, except so when we
have an argument or that goes out the windows.

Speaker 2 (12:54):
Okay, tell me what happens.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
So I personally, okay, it's one you know, a thing
I've learned from being very small boy, you know, which is,
even if things are very really hard, and even if
you feel attacked, even if somebody is really horrible to you,

(13:17):
tell the truth, be fair, what you your worlds count like.
It's your worlds are so important. Now, I must admit
it's not always the case when we you know, but
I do try to be fair. I try to I'm constructive,
I'm not destructive. I'm not there to put down anyone.

(13:42):
So these moments where I say, I think the words
you're using, Jessa are not always correct or helpful, and
and so when I feel attacked, right, it's it's because
I feel that in those moments where we start an argument,
which could be something it would be good to when

(14:03):
we start the argument to actually say, we could be
very careful with our worlds where we going, how we
use them, and the aim should never be to to
put down anyone.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
So are you telling me that you feel put down
by Jess in the arguments?

Speaker 4 (14:20):
Could give me an example, yeah, I oh, it's a
bit okay, So.

Speaker 2 (14:32):
I'm a bit well, okay, when you're a bit worried,
and what are you worried about?

Speaker 4 (14:37):
Now? Now, what's gonna happen. I'm just gonna okay, I'm
gonna say it. Okay. So Jess tells me, she says
I cheated on her okay, which is because she feels
she has a different definition for me. It's it's actually

(14:58):
highly I feel really very hurt by that because it's
not true and I care about her, and I mean,
you know what I did, I didn't really you know.
I mean, I'm not sleeping with anyone else when we're together.
I did it once when we were separated, because we
had several times we were separated. But I actually really

(15:20):
care to be fair and to be also if there's
an issue, I want to be direct, and because we
have so, because I feel like it's a bit unfair
on me.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
The word so it's the word cheese.

Speaker 4 (15:35):
Well that that world's that's one one of those things, okay,
but it's not the only one. There's a few things
like that that I feel that, well, one what are
we you know what I mean? And I feel when
it's like that, when I feel put down and I'm like,
you know, do I want to go on? Okay, I

(15:55):
need to be respected. And then if I feel respected,
even in moments where it's really difficult, we have an argument,
we need to have respect's the moment where we need
to have respect and we need to be careful. And
so then if I feel that, of course, then I
want to say I love If I feel like I'm attacked,

(16:17):
it's not just one way to get sometimes it's like
it just goes almost I feel insulted. If I feel insulted,
I'm not gonna say, oh, I love you. I want
to in that moment. I'm not going to feel like that.
I want to stay with you.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
So what do we do? Because that's my question because
I feel that I'm I'm actually telling him, hey, you know,
I'm being triggered by this because it reminds me of
this thing that you did, and he feels attacked by that.
And what I'm actually really saying is I'm feeling insecure.

(16:52):
I need reassurance right now. I need you to just
hold me, tell me you love me, remind me that
you're here. So I forget all that at the moment,
all the other noise disappears and it's just the two
of us. But he doesn't hear that. He hears you
know you did this, and I'm still angry, what do

(17:13):
you And that's not what I'm saying, and I don't
know what to do because that then his response, his
reaction to that, when he feels attacked, actually makes it worse.
So I feel even worse than I did when I
just had that feeling on my own. So first I'm

(17:33):
feeling triggered, but I still try to talk to him
about it. It doesn't work. It makes a situation worse
because he feels attacked. You know, in his mind, I think,
you know why she attacking me? Why is she bringing
up the past? You know, I need to defend myself.

(17:55):
So I think there's two things. I think there's two
things happening.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
One is, I think we might need to get some
clarity about the past, because if it sounds like there's
not been some resolve around the past things that have happened,
because if there were resolve around the things that have happened,
they might not come up as often or be as
easily triggered. And then the part two of this is that, Okay,

(18:20):
even if something does come up and we get triggered.
I really want us to break down, actually, what are
the things that just that you do say? Because you've
got the underlying message there, but something about the words
that you're saying is being heard by Dave in a
in a different way, and then we're going to work
with Dave around Okay, how can I start to look

(18:42):
at the message underneath and not immediately go to what
might be the surface level content.

Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yes, I think that's exactly what we need, because it's
really hard. We were actually talking about the SYS today
and trying to figure it out, but we don't know
what the answer is.

Speaker 4 (19:01):
Argument.

Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, you know when I say that's good, I say
that's good because we can use that. I actually feel
like examples of real life recent arguments can actually go
quite well for us to use as the kind of
guinea pig for how do we do things differently.

Speaker 4 (19:18):
I'd like to say that the reason why we got
out of that argument is because Jess is actually very
good communicator. So she managed to put down things in
a way that I realized what she was feeling and
what I don't, even though it's really old stuff that
came again on the surface a bit like that story
and we told you. She managed to so make me

(19:40):
go there with her and I could sort of empathize,
and then I sort of okay, I got it, you
know a little bit. I mean, it's it's her point
of view. It's not all the truths or whatever. I
can't see. Oh, it's not even It's more it's not
like it's not the way.

Speaker 2 (19:56):
You don't have to agree.

Speaker 4 (19:57):
It's not like I didn't do anything wrong exactly. It's
not the problem. It's how she felt because of what
happened or what I did wrong or not.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
And I think that's the difference between validating and agreeing.
I can validate how you feel without saying, yes, you're right,
I am a cheater and I did this and I
did that. You can validate. I can see that you're
feeling really insecure and that you need some closeness with me,
or you need me to let you know that I
love you right now, you know. So you can say
things like that without agreeing with the actual content of

(20:29):
what they're thinking.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
But I need that's what I need. That's what I need.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
And well, you're saying it went well yesterday in terms.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
Of not well it went well at Neander.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
But well, okay, you guys salvaged it. So how did
it go?

Speaker 4 (20:41):
Well?

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Like what? Because this is when the things that do work,
it's important to note those. So Jess managed to communicate
it in a way that you could hear it. What
was it?

Speaker 4 (20:50):
I could go with her in the way she feels.
So I managed to understand, and I think, yeah, that's
just but it it doesn't sort some of the but
still there's a lot of communication that happened. So and
I have a pivity bout a memois. Some things I

(21:12):
remember completely different from her. I trust her more than me.
My memory is pretty shocking.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
So, and when you're experiencing something, his view through a
different lenes anyway. So I'm viewing things through a different
lenes from him anyway. So even if we remember the
same things, clearly, we're going to remember them a different way.

Speaker 4 (21:35):
Yeah, but there's been there's been issues because what's what's
been happening. I mean, if you don't mind, I can talk.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
What's been happening is Jesse is worried about my female
friends that I've got. So I do. I do some music,
and I have a lot of friends made of female
and so she's worried at something there people that I'm

(22:02):
you know, attracted to, or I want to be with
or something. So it ends up being very difficult for
her to go to my music sessions or when I
play live or something, and I would really like her
to come. So I missed that. I means that she's
not there with me when I do these things because
it's something I'm proud of and I want her to

(22:25):
be part of it. So I explain that now you know,
there's not really any words to have there, and actually
it would be really I think she againes she wants
to go. She wants to go, she wants to find
a way to go there with. I know you're a
bit worried about the crowds as well.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
I don't have a problem with his female friends. I
saw he had a lot of female friends when I
met him, and I saw that as a green flag,
and I was excited because I thought, I'm going to
get a new group of girlfriends. You know, if they
love him, they're going to love me because I love
him too. We've got that in comment. But then, like

(23:05):
you said earlier, I feel that he's cheated on me
A couple of times, the things that he's said and done.
We talked about that a little bit yesterday, but we've
got different ideas about that. And I know, I know
people have you know, I've got friends who are Polly,
I've got friends who you know, doll kinds of things.

(23:27):
But I think if both partners are on the same page,
and that's okay. But for me, I don't have a
thing about his female friends. I have a thing about
like when we've had an argument and he says I
should be with her instead of with you, and then

(23:48):
he goes to her and he talks about our relationship issues, like,
I don't think that's appropriate to talk to someone that
you said that you should be with instead of me.
I don't want to go into a lot of details
have an argument now. Well, but he takes that as
me saying, well, he takes that as me he can't

(24:11):
talk to his female friends. It's not what I'm saying,
not the ones that you told me that you would write.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
And David, please do not worry. You will you will
get to it, like don't. There is time for both
of you. And I think it's important to let Jess say,
you know you've said that she has a problem with
your friends, your female friends. Jess is actually trying to
tell you something that no, I don't. I don't have
a problem with your female friends, but I do there
have been some things that you've said in the past

(24:41):
or you know, that have made me feel uncomfortable with
certain female friends. And then now to you, David.

Speaker 4 (24:48):
Tell us, yeah, well, this particular incident is one that
sort of didn't have with the argument we had there
before yesterday. So I'm going to say that it's only
a part of the torst. The fact what we had
a big argument that day that I'm talking about a

(25:08):
long time ago. So was it what you're or something?
And that was on the phone, and I was very,
very stressed with it because again it's one of those
times where I felt okay and then after annoying feeling
very annoyed and bothered and feeling like, oh God, I
can't deal with that. Then she asks me, so do
you want to be do you prefer to be with

(25:29):
that person? Well, I'm like at the moment, I'm sorry,
but yeah, you know, we.

Speaker 3 (25:35):
Remember that differently. I don't. I'm sure I didn't say
that at all. He thinks I.

Speaker 4 (25:39):
Did, well, it was I've got about memory, but I
know there was something that you really did trigger there
and it wasn't nice.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
However, that happened in some way, shape or form. It
came out and not just you randomly bringing that up saying, oh,
you know, I think I should be Yeah, that came out. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:00):
Like, and when you feel like attacked for you know,
hours or whatever, at the end, you're like, god, I'll
have enough. You know, it's normal.

Speaker 2 (26:09):
And I think this is it trying not to hear
this as a criticism, David, because I think everybody can
relate to saying things that we don't mean, or saying
things without thinking when we're understressed, when we're feeling criticized,
when we're hurt.

Speaker 4 (26:25):
Because it wasn't right, I'm not saying it as well.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
You said that, yeah, And I think that's the bit is.
I can tell you don't think that that was a
good thing to say. But it's hard to see that
message when you are trying to justify why you said it,
because it sort of makes it seem like then, well,
because Jess was doing this, this this to me, that's
why that came out, which is logistically and factually potentially correct,

(26:49):
but in that it gets lost that actually, you know what,
I can understand how me saying that would be really
hurtful and it doesn't mean and it makes sense as
to why you might feel uncomfortable with me with this
friend after I said something like that. Does that feel true? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (27:07):
I do, I do, And interestingly, I mean, we've been
thinking to catch up with her together. I'm still worried
that I don't. I don't know how it's gonna if
it could work, but it'd be good.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
So, yes, you're you're seeming a little bit about about
Dave being worried. Do you think there's anything to worry
about Dave.

Speaker 3 (27:29):
I think Dave's worried about the wrong thing. I think
he should be worried about supporting me and making me
feel safe going into a situation with a woman that
I consider that he, you know, kind of like emotionally
cheated on me with. But he's worried that I'm going
to say something. I'm not going to say something to her.
I run from confrontation. I don't like it at all.

(27:51):
I'm very I'm not very.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
You're not going to cause a problem with.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
Strong and that sense or anything. Well, I'm more likely
to run away, I am, and he knows that deep down.
I'm sure he does. But and look, this person is
probably a lovely person. I've not heard anything nasty about them.
But I don't anything personally against this person at all,
you know, And I don't mind if he I mean,

(28:16):
I don't like him talking about our relationship to his friends,
but I know that that's what people do, and I
know that I have done it, so it's fair that
he does it too. And it's good that he's got
a couple of friends he can trust enough to talk
to about our relationship. And you know what, if that females,
that is potentially even better because they're probably a bit

(28:37):
more empathetic and can give him the female viewpoint. But
what I do have a problem with is him talking
to someone that he said he should be with instead
of me, And that is the issue I take with it.
So I don't I don't know, like I know now
he didn't think that. I know that was a heat

(28:57):
of the moment thing. But still there's a little part
of me that, you know, doubts, like, you know, when
I meet her, am I going to be comparing myself
to her? You know she is she kinder than me?
Is she smarter than me? Does she you know, have
a better job than me? Does she? Is she prettier
than me? Is she you know, thinner than me? All
that kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
You know.

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I'm just a little bit worried if that's what my
mind is going to do. And I don't want to
be feeling like that if I do meet her, and
she's a good friend of her, so I feel like
I should if I do meet her, I want it
to be where I'm in a better place. So I
don't I'm not at risk of, you know, defaulting to

(29:41):
wanting to look for reasons why she's better than me.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
How can I answer that?

Speaker 4 (29:46):
No, I'm saying the first thing is else, She's not
better than you, okay, And I would not have chosen
you if it was the case. She's you and and
but everybody's different. And I do love people in general.
I like people. I enjoy, you know, having discussions with

(30:07):
different types of people and learning from them. And so
for me, appreciating people is like I like that, you know,
it's I So I guess I said to her, Yeah,
I have a lot of hands and I love them
all in a way, right, doesn't mean I'm gonna go
and sleep with them. Yeah, but I love having discussion

(30:28):
with a lot of different people, male or female, And yeah,
it's important for me.

Speaker 2 (30:33):
Yeah, And I don't think it sounds like just as
saying there's anything wrong with that part.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
No, I just need for him to realize that he's
got a girlfriend who's been lied to and cheat it
on in the past. He's got a girlfriend who you know,
and our relationship, we both made a few choices that
have not been the best, and that even though he's apologized,

(31:01):
although it took a long time to apologize, which did
affect how well I accepted that even though he's apologized,
he understands why I felt this way, and I've forgiven him.
It doesn't make the pain just disappear. It doesn't stop
the triggers from reappairing. You can do everything right and

(31:23):
the pain is still there. And that's what I really
want him to understand is that I accept that he
sees my flaws, he accepts them, that he has acknowledged
his own, he's acknowledged the hurt that he's caused for
our relationship. But I also really need him to understand

(31:45):
that that doesn't mean the hurt disappears, and that I
still need I'm still fragile, I'm still vulnerable, and I
still need support and reassurance and I just don't get.

Speaker 4 (31:59):
That and I want to give it to her, and
it's I don't give her enough. And I understand that.
I mean, you also understand why why Now you probably
see why I can't always do that, but I agree that,
like I need to do something on that part.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
After this short break, I'm going to assist David and
Jess in coming up with some strategies and frameworks they
need before they can even begin to dive into issues
around cheating and trust stay with us. I think we'll
be useful for us to put some strategies in place.

(32:37):
Let's go to the other part of this, which was
the maybe some things that aren't resolved, or I think
the big one maybe to start with is the different
perceptions about cheating, because I think if we continue to
have two different ideas about what happened, then of course, yes,
I can see there's been attempts for repair, but it's
kind of like a sort of shonky repair work has happened,

(33:00):
and so things do slip through the cracks and then
these arguments happen. So we don't have to get to
a place of both agreeing that this happened and one way,
but we do need to get to some better sort
of understanding around it, because I think at the moment
this c like will you cheated? Well no, I didn't.
I think that's kind of destabilizing any further communication between

(33:23):
you about these type of topics. Yeah, so I don't
know whether they you know, we can actually talk about
the instance or instances that this is stemming from.

Speaker 4 (33:34):
Well, probably again, this is anothera where I will be
at my Yeah, yeah, just might want to go.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
That's okay, Jess can tell if Jess feels like she
might need to go. Well, let's trust Jess to let
us know and say, guys, I'm starting to feel like
throttling him, so I need to step around. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, Well so I'm trying to remember the horse earlier.
But to start with, I want to go back to
when and so we met her like more than four
years ago now, maybe almost almost five years ago. And

(34:20):
to start with, we were just friends, very good friends,
and so eventually I just realized that when I was
in Jesse's arms. I just felt like I was having
and I just had this stay there. So do you recur?

Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yes, we can play that.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
So that that's what I thought. Okay, look, I have
to I have to ask her, So I said, can
we be together? I want to be with you. So yeah,
that's how we started. And I guess from being friends
when we started bing together, you know, as lovers, I
think Jess ended up having a lot more worries automatically

(35:03):
because for we ever passed or something. So there was
a lot of things that came up that I noticed
in terms of of confidence.

Speaker 3 (35:12):
A lot of that was because he didn't bring me
into his phone. I used to be really really fat,
and I think he was ashamed of that and he
wouldn't like, he didn't introduce me to his friends, he
didn't take me out to like, he didn't include me
in his social life. I mean, I feel that it
was because of the way that I looked, and that

(35:34):
started to create a lot of insecurity because he was
really sweet to me when it was just us or
us and the kids, but when it was.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
I mean, it's a difficult, but I socially it was well.
I had some comments from people, so I felt also
it was probably, you know, unfair also on Jess.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
But what do you mean by comment?

Speaker 4 (36:03):
Yeah it was I had, you know, some of the
people I know commenting, oh, you know, because she was
quite big, so they commented. I felt that was not right.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
How did you manage that?

Speaker 3 (36:18):
I felt he should Yeah.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I was going to ask how did you manage those
comments from your friends?

Speaker 5 (36:22):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (36:22):
No, I felt I was upset with it. I did
say something, you know, I said, it's not you know,
what are you saying? But that was after so when
when we were together, nothing happened there, but later on
I heard something from him, So yeah, it was So.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Did that make you feel uncomfortable to bring Jess around
your friends? Jess is internalizing that as because of her weight,
But are you saying that it was.

Speaker 4 (36:52):
Well, you know, it's it's obviously I feel like, oh,
you know, I don't want to put her in that
situation again.

Speaker 3 (36:59):
So yeah, it didn't come across that way at all.
I came across as I'm ashamed of you. I care
about you, but you know, I mean it shallow.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
Yeah, it's to be honest, it was a bit of
an issue for me as well that she was quite
big and she's done, you know, she's done a lot
of work on that. But yeah, it was a bit
of an issue for me as well.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
And were you open about that with Jess.

Speaker 4 (37:29):
Yes, but it was actually quite hurtful for her. So
I told you when I stopped that eventually I actually
saw you know, I mean, I don't want to hurt her,
you know, I I I sort of saw it differently,
and I guess to be optimistic is a good thing.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
You know.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
I'm not optimistic. I'm quite pessimistic by nature, so that
doesn't help. But I saw it as well. You know,
you have you have more to Carole, and I do
like that. Actually, I really like that. So you know
when I say when I'm in her arms, arms and
there's more space there, you know, it's very warm, you know,

(38:07):
it's I don't know, it's better or that fault.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
So in terms of we've got something here, Okay, So
if we look at the beginning of the relationship.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
Yes, yes, so I went sideways. Yeah, so, yes, that
was the beginning of the relationship. But then well sorry,
actually I didn't.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
Actually want to stay with it here. Sorry, I do
want to I want to stay with this issue because
I think, yeah, I think this sort of led into
then more insecurity stuff. So let's stick with this for
a moment, because I think what so Jess was saying
there is it didn't feel like you were wanting to
protect me or yourself from other people's comments. It felt

(38:49):
like you were judging me as well or ashamed of me. Yeah.
So if this is like the original or initial.

Speaker 3 (38:58):
Hurt, and it really hurt because we were really good
friends before we started dating, like we loved each other
before we were in love with each other, like where
you just felt this connection and a really strong connection,
and you know, but I just didn't realize until we

(39:18):
were together that that was always just at my house
or his house, or when we're going out for the
day or doing things together. I didn't realize. It took
me until we were in a relationship to realize that
I wasn't around his friends.

Speaker 4 (39:35):
There's two things to that though, Because I wasn't, you know,
I mean I was, I wouldn't say I was. I
wasn't ashamed of you. It's it's true that when I
heard that guy said that I was, I felt a bit.
And it's not just that I want to protect you
it's tru Also, I felt, oh god, you know this
is but I felt it's going to be difficult to
go out or do anything. So that that that's only issue,

(40:00):
but it's for me. I invited just to my gigs,
one gig in particular, and she went there, and you
know when she's so well, I was playing. When I
stopped playing during the break, I came towards her and
she didn't want to give me a horg or anything
like that.

Speaker 2 (40:19):
This is the thing she was invited to.

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Uh or second accompanying anywhere, one of the first ones.
And I know that she was worried about seeing an
X over.

Speaker 2 (40:35):
There an expence of mine.

Speaker 4 (40:40):
Yeah, so but yeah, and she's also told me that
she didn't like crowds very much. So when we've been
doing something that was a bit so short, it's always
been a bit of a there's been an issue, there's
been like something happened. So it's true that I feel
worried about going out with Jess. Yeah, and just so

(41:04):
it's yeah, it's not just it's not just that one thing.
It's several things.

Speaker 2 (41:08):
Okay, So okay, So David's saying that there's other things
around going to more social things that were potential barriers.
So I mean, Jesse, if you want to speak to
that a little bit. Even in terms of the gig
that Davis talking about, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
I don't remember that specific night, but it sounds like
something that I've happened. So for me, I feel that
he is ashamed of me, embarrassed of me. I feel
like I'm good enough for him, but not for his

(41:45):
public image, and that really hurts, and that makes me
feel really insecure. He doesn't post anything of us on
his social media. He hasn't introduced me to his family.
You know, I don't know many of his friends. I
feel at times like I'm a side peace. But when

(42:07):
it's just the two of us, it's fabulus us together.
We have a great time. We gewl, we laugh, we
you know, we both have the same kind of passion
for spontaneity, and we're easily happy just to have a
lazy day at home, and it all just seems to
fit in really well. So when you combine that, I

(42:32):
think the feeling, the overall feeling, is that I'm not
really welcome, Like he kind of wants me, but he
kind of doesn't. In some ways, I don't feel fully welcome.
If I felt welcome, if I felt safe, if I
felt secure in the relationship, then none of that would
be as much of an issue for me at all,

(42:53):
And I know I would be able to relax and
not be so nervous.

Speaker 2 (42:56):
And I think that's why I wanted to stick with
this original issue of feeling ashamed of feeling unattractive or
not wanted or not accepted in day world, because yes,
obviously afterwards there have been these things which we I
think we will need to go into around the cheating

(43:17):
is that, But actually before we go there, I do
think this is actually probably what's led into all of
the other stuff happening, because I think you're right there, Jess,
where if you hadn't felt that he was ashamed of you,
and this doesn't mean that you were ashamed of her,
but if that's how Jess feels, and it makes complete
sense as to why she would feel more insecure about

(43:38):
the other things.

Speaker 4 (43:40):
I mean, I want to say that I have tried
and it's told us it's there, are okay. How canas said?
The main thing for me was the fact that I
was worried about having something happened about the reaction possibly
maybe because my ex tails up or something else, and

(44:03):
then it would end on can you tell me the
massive argument?

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Can you tell me? Because you've mentioned a couple of
times and I've even seen here today that you were
worried about how Es reacts to things. Can you tell
me a bit more? And this is not to you know,
it's not about dubbing each other in for our bad behaviors,
you know, but we do need to talk about the behaviors.
And is there things that just does that you find
really hard to deal with?

Speaker 4 (44:25):
Yeah, So it's interesting because we had a discussion day
before yesterday and about one of them, which is now
I don't remember it the same way. So it's interesting.
But from my point of view, so most of the
time if we go up, there is something something happens

(44:45):
and we'll have an argument and it's it's different, but
it's all the ways to do with meeting my friend,
one of my friends, or I don't know, me saying
the wrong world and then it goes into something else
which goes too far.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
I just interject and say that.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
So there's never any issue in it.

Speaker 4 (45:07):
It doesn't happen in public. It's it's not just like
one person.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
I also don't like confront anything or anything like nothing
that I run okay, and then we argue about it later.

Speaker 4 (45:19):
But that's that's usually what happens.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
That's why, okay, So you anticipate problems and then feel like,
you know what, it's just easy if we don't go
out because I don't want her to get upset, and
then we have.

Speaker 3 (45:30):
Exactly Whereas what I'm thinking is I've run away. Obviously
I wasn't coping. Why is he not supporting me or saying, hey,
are you okay? You need a hug? Can I do anything?
He's not doing that, and that's what I need in
that moment.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
Yeah, I mean I I sort of twice difficult if
I'm playing, though, if I'm organizing, you know, one of
the jam sessions or something, because I do that quite often,
so I can't always be next to Jess. But I
suggested some places where I could you know, where we
do that, because I'd like you to be close to me,
and when I do these things as well, it'd be good.

Speaker 2 (46:09):
So if we were to think about the bottom line
here is how Jess doesn't feel a welcomed or solid
part of your life. So and from what I hear
from your side, Dave, is that she is a part
of your life and she is welcoming. In fact, you
do want her to be a solid part in your life,

(46:32):
so that I think what's happening though, is it's whatever
you're trying to do is maybe not the things that
just needs so if we think about it, I mean,
she mentioned a few things there around having not met
your family. I don't know if that's still current the case.
I think not met your family or certain.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
Friends my family is a bit difficult.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Could it be over FaceTime or a zoom or I mean,
I don't know. Could there be ways to introduce.

Speaker 4 (46:55):
Oh yeah, I mean I had my sister and I
think I had anyway. Yeah, maybe I don't speak to
my family very often, to be.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Honest, but yeah, I'm assuming they know about Jess's existence
in your life. Right just for you, what would make
you feel more welcome and a part of Dave's life.

Speaker 3 (47:19):
I want him to be inviting me to be a
part of that, even if I don't go. I can't
always go, I have a young child, but I want
to know that I'm welcome, invited to anything. Anything. I'm
not saying, I expect to be there for everything because

(47:41):
I think it's really important for us to do things
separately as well, and for him to have his own friends,
because you know you, different groups of friends sort of
feed different parts of your soul at different times, and
that's really important because then that soul comes back to
me and I get the benefits. But I just need
to know that he's we're walking in there and he's

(48:03):
you know, he's holding my hand, he's with me. He's
not going to leave me alone, and he wants me
there and he's not ashamed of me, and that would
make me feel better and like him saying, you know, oh,
I'm worried about what your reaction is going to be.
I'm wondering, worried about what's going to happen. I don't
you know. The only thing that's going to happen is
I'm going to feel uncomfortable and I'm going to slip

(48:25):
out and then send him a text later or something.
But you know that that makes me even more anxious
because I'm already thinking, you know, I know that I'm
going to stuff up. I just don't know where it's
going to be, and it's going to make me think
about that rather than think about you know, if.

Speaker 4 (48:44):
You if you leave a place like that and it's
just you leaving and you so'm sorry whatever, it's fine,
it's just we Usually what happened after that is there's
been an argument that followed. I can't even remember.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
He takes it personally when I leave. He doesn't realize
it's about me ta managing my anxiety and removing myself
from a situation where I feel uncomfortable. Because if I
feel uncomfortable in that situation, other people we're going to
pick up on that and it's gonna mean it's going
to be awkward for them. And it's not fair to

(49:16):
do that to other people that I don't really know.
It's not really fair to do that to him. So
for me, I'm actually making a really smart decision when
I leave, because it saves my anxiety from escalating further.
It saves him from being embarrassed by a girlfriend who's
clearly got something going on. It saves his friends being
confused and not knowing what's going on. So I genuinely

(49:41):
feel and I would love to have advice on this
because I don't know what else to do. Because I
genuinely feel I'm actually making a really smart decision at
that point to leave while I'm still thinking clearly.

Speaker 4 (49:55):
It's sort of tool, and it's what I want to
make you feel more uncomfortable and what happened, I think
if I remember, well now is like then I have
to explain to my friends where you left. So I
usually said, well, you know, yeah, I don't know a
kid who needs to.

Speaker 3 (50:12):
I said to him, you can just tell them the truth,
to tell them that she gets really anxious or she's
not good in social situations and not to take I
met one of his friends and she was so lovely
and she was so sweet, and I said that to her.
I said, look, I have to be honest. I don't
know how long I can stay because I'm really nervous
at the moment. And she was like, oh, don't worry,

(50:34):
you know, we're all nervous, blah blah blah. But the
way she said it, it actually felt like, you know,
it would be okay and she wouldn't be offended. And
I did say to her, look, you know, please just
don't take it personally. If you turn around and I'm gone,
because that's just me.

Speaker 4 (50:51):
I'd love her to meet more exactly for that.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
And I know that's weird.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
I know, but it's not weird. And look, I think
my only thought around that. I mean, number one, I
think it's great that you are able to check in
with yourself and know where your limits are and if
it's not feeling good or you need to step away.
I think that is really important, because you're right. Sometimes
it does the damage to ourself or our partner when
we try and push through and we don't listen to
what we really need. There could be a middle ground, though,

(51:17):
where you step out for a bit, and whether that
be something that Dave is a part of, and like,
we love that it's with you to try and help
yourself sooth so you can come back, like what if
you rather than leaving. And sometimes you might actually just
have to leave and that's okay, But there might be
other times where it's like I'm definitely not coping right now,
but I could be brought back down and be able

(51:40):
to come back in, you know, So there'd be times
where maybe you don't have to miss the whole thing
and you could step out and that could be something
that Dave could support you.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
I would actually love that. I think that's great because
I'm just listening to him now and I'm realizing I'm
not actually thinking about how he's left to handle the
situation after I'm gone. I'm just so proud of myself
for getting out when I needed to. Like, I'm out at.

Speaker 2 (52:04):
The fire, you know Dave's sitting there.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
I think, well, that could help me if when you leave,
just could come to me and say, Dave, I'm sorry
I have to leave, you know, but there's not there's
no issues. I just need some space or whatever, and
that would that would really help.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
So do you normally slip out without letting Dave know
or without telling.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
I have to be honest. Sometimes I'll wait till he
goes and gets a drink, and then I'll slip out
because I know that I had a couple of minutes
to get away. But last time I get that, he
called me an uber, so that was really sweet of him.
He was really annoyed at me, but he still called
me an uber.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
I would, so.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Maybe we just got a tweak. What's happening here a
little bit?

Speaker 4 (52:48):
Right?

Speaker 2 (52:48):
So do you think Dave that for you you would
feel more happy and comfortable about Jess coming to social
things or gigs with you if you knew that you
had a better system where you would trust that. If
she wasn't feeling.

Speaker 4 (53:03):
Okay, there's no I mean an argument after that, It's
going to be fine. Even if she's try girls with
a friend. There's a on We're going to be all right.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
When we come back. It's time to think about the
homework that Jess and David need to work on between
sessions back in a tick. Homework is a big part
of couples and family therapy. As much as some people
wish their therapists could move in with them, we can't.
So homework is where people can practice new kinds of

(53:36):
communication and different responses and behaviors to break through the
barriers and challenges their relationship is facing in real time. Look,
I won't be bombarding in the homework, but you know,
I think it's handy to have a couple of little
experiments or things to be observing and trying in the week,
and then we report back and chat about did that work,

(53:56):
did that not work? What happened there? So leading us
into a bit of that I think could be coming
up with a system that you guys both feel happy
about in terms of navigating these social situations together. So
whether that be Jess on your end coming up with
you know, commitments that you're going to make. I will

(54:16):
make sure that I don't leave without telling you. I
will make sure that if it's a situation that I
feel I could use some help with rather than because
you might just need to leave and that's okay, But
if it's that, you know what, I need a break
and I might be able to come back in this
is how I'll ask you. So really having like sort
of formulated like lines or plans of how I would

(54:38):
ask you for that, and then Dave, I think what
would be important is for you to go if you
ask me to come and help you, you know, whether
it's recenter, calm down, just you know, get yourself back together.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
But don't say the words come down. Oh my god,
if you say those like nobody nobody comes down, they
come up, you know they yeah, tell them that. He
can't say.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
Okay, So he's saying, you can tell me.

Speaker 4 (55:05):
If I said that to Jess, it's going to be
a different problem. But for me it's fine.

Speaker 2 (55:10):
I Jess can say I feel like I need help
calming down. Jess, could you maybe use the word for
her own self, or even just like, I feel like
I need a bit of reassurance. Can you help me
do some self soothing in the bathroom or outside or
can we.

Speaker 3 (55:24):
You mean, I don't have to run away? This is
an alternative, yeah, because.

Speaker 2 (55:27):
I think it is really sad that you're running away
and for the times that you might not have to,
and you actually have a partner there that can support
you in being there. It sounds like he does want
you there, but he just doesn't know what to do,
you know.

Speaker 4 (55:40):
I mean it's if I'm playing, I'm an hostage, sure,
and I can't be there very much of course, so
that's where you need maybe a fan as well or something.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
Yeah, but I mean we could even work.

Speaker 3 (55:52):
It's not one of your exites.

Speaker 2 (55:54):
Not one of the exes please. I think let's say,
if Dave's on stage and you're feeling overwhelmed, you might decide, Okay,
I'm going to head outside and I'll text him so
when he finishes his set that he'll see his phone
and he can check if I'm still outside, he can
come and we'll do that self soothing and reassuring thing
if it's been too much and I had to leave

(56:14):
by then. Okay, it is what it is, you know
what I mean. But there'll be other opportunities where he
is available and able, and I guess, Dave, I think
it will be important for you to make sure that's
really prioritized. Is even if I'm chatting with someone, even
if whatever, If Jess needs me for fifteen minutes or
ten minutes, I excuse myself. I go with her because
this is how we rebuild the trust that you've got me.

(56:37):
I feel supported absolutely.

Speaker 4 (56:39):
Yeah. Yeah, and that's one of the things. I know.
You know, we had a big argument two days ago,
but there's something that I realized as well. So I'm
hoping even though it was maybe a was it was
not a good moment, maybe I'm learning something out of
it as well.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Yeah, And I do think arguments are often, you know,
unpleasant in them, but they can often be very constructive
and sometimes we kind of need to get to that
level for the real stuff actually come out so we
can work with what's really happening here.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
I feel so too. I just I feel like I
just need to know that if I do need space
or I do need to go away, he can't take it.
Personally and he can't say, you know, you left because
of this person and that was humiliating for me or
something like that, because actually I didn't. I left because

(57:36):
I wasn't coping. Yeah, And I need to need it
to get out of there, and I need I really
really want for him to understand that, because it makes
it harder for me to go next time if I'm
feeling yeah, uncomfortable, but I can't leave because he's going

(57:56):
to decide that it's all about something that it's actually
not about.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Yeah. And if we were to add a little part two,
I'm adding onto the homework, but if part one is
just you having a look at in what ways, like
what will we do for that ten minute? You know,
Like so I will come up and I'll say this
if I need you, Dave, and then you come with me,
and this is what would help me in that ten minutes.
Can we do this? Can we do that? Blah blah? Okay,

(58:21):
I think on Dave's end of things, I would like
to see you have a real reflection about what are
the things that I can do that can help just
feel more welcome in my life? Is it posting some
photos of us on Facebook or whatever is it, you know,
organizing to have her come on and say hello next
time I'm chatting to my family on the phone. I

(58:43):
don't know, but coming up with some things that may
seem not that big of a deal to you, but
obviously feel like missing for Jess.

Speaker 4 (58:52):
Of course, I'd like, I mean, I'd like to sort
of explain away, I'm not The Facebook thing is a
bit of an obvious and I'd like to explain that
a bit.

Speaker 3 (59:00):
He's had his ex'es all over there. Yeah, even more
so he was with when we were separated. They were
all over Facebook and everything.

Speaker 4 (59:08):
But not okay, so way it's music related whatever. But
and I do post a lot of things on Facebook
about music, not much about my kids or anything, nothing
at all really about my family, mostly just about the music.
But it's true. I tried to put some point a

(59:28):
photo of us too on a Stagram and it wasn't
a big thing, but look, I still want to put
even there. We had an argument a couple of days
after an hour to put it off, to put it
down and actually breaks my heart whichever photo I took.
We had a break up and just asked me to
remove all the photos and it was very difficult for me.
So one of the things is before I put the photos.

(59:51):
It's horrible to say, but before I put the photos
on Facebook, I want to know that we're secure. And
that's why.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
It's kind of like a bit of an insurance policy though,
which doesn't feel because we could circle this around, right, So, yeah,
I want to feel that you're not going to break
up with me before I put photos of us on
social media. But by you not putting the photos of
the two of you on social media destabilizes the security
and the validity and publicness of the relationship, which is

(01:00:20):
sounds like it's important to just do it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
Does it just reinforces to me that I'm not really welcome,
that he's still a little bit ashamed of me and
wants to keep me sort of separate from that part
of his life.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
So I.

Speaker 4 (01:00:37):
Sort of just saying that's the reason.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
But yeah, and it's fair enough that that's your reason.
I guess it's just looking at does this reason to
get in my way? If my goal is to have
this relationship be a happy and healthy one, does my
reason for not putting the photo up getting my way
of achieving my goal? And I think it does. That's
sort of the reason why I'm bringing that up is
not to put down your reasoning, but just is my

(01:01:01):
reasoning actually a bit counterproductive for me if I want
this relationship to be happy and healthy.

Speaker 4 (01:01:07):
No, that's and.

Speaker 2 (01:01:08):
You know, I don't think it means like you've got
to last photos of Jess all over there, all over
your page, but just and it could be there might
be other things. And this is why I'm sort of
setting this for homework, is more things. There may be
lots of other little ways that you can make Jess
also feel Yeah, just more a part of it, like
meeting different friends, different people, you know, being involved in

(01:01:29):
certain things that you do. And of course that doesn't
mean that she has to attend everything you attend, but
just having the Do I invite her to stuff? Or
do I just assume she doesn't want to come? Or
do I assume she's busy? Do I assume she, you know,
will get anxious and angry and will have to leave?
So I don't bother inviting anymore? Like maybe there are
things you could just look at and just check. Do
I make sure that she feels welcome in this area

(01:01:52):
of my life?

Speaker 5 (01:01:52):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:01:53):
I I mean I try to do that. Like, mostly
what I do, you know, apart from work, is music,
So I try to involve her in the music whenever
it's possible.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
But yeah, yeah, so but.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
I can do more.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
I mean I can, and maybe that will be the
homeworkers for you to start listing that.

Speaker 4 (01:02:09):
Okay, yeah, yeah, okay.

Speaker 2 (01:02:11):
Now in terms of I think probably just based on time,
we'll probably leave and I think maybe pick up a
bit more on the different perspectives about the cheating stuff,
because I do think that that is important to get into.
I think just the original feeling ashamed of me stuff
I think was the when that sort of came up,
I felt like that was actually we need to work

(01:02:33):
there first. Then we can go to the different perspectives.
And I guess we could have start looking at a
couple agreements like what are our We might have certain
slight different ways or perceptions of things, but we need
to have a couple agreement of what isn't isn't okay
behavior wise under all different circumstances, even if we have
different perceptions. So I'm thinking that might be better for

(01:02:54):
us to leave today, but to talk about next time
if you feel like would be useful.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
I think that would be good because when we had
this big discussion the other day to try and work
through some of the things. Yeah, we talk that. We
talked a bit about that.

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
So maybe we park it and we you meaning, how
to have an argument without it going you know, sideways,
that having a ways to communicate do better.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
Yes, So we're talking about different ways to communicate about it,
but also actually coming to like we could be workshopping
agreements between you about what is cheating, what's acceptable, what's not.
Even if we have your own perspective in life of
what cheating is. In this relationship, what cheating is is this,
So we're going to have a shared agreement about what

(01:03:46):
cheating is between us. We can have individual ideas about
what cheating is. We're two different people, we have different perspectives,
but in this relationship, if we're together, we need to
agree what is and isn't. Okay, Yeah, yeah, I agree
with that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Yeah yeah, I mean yes, Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Well, I hope that this session went a bit better
than the other couple of times you've tried. We've made
it to the end.

Speaker 4 (01:04:15):
We're still talking.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Look at that, you're still talking.

Speaker 3 (01:04:19):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
Thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
I think Jess and David came here today to work
through some of their communication issues and also to really
untangle some more deeply rooted problems between the two of
them around perception, trust, agreements about behavior, and even just
feeling secure with each other in the relationship. I think
trust issues are a really common problem in couples, and

(01:04:53):
particularly different perceptions about what cheating might be, what is
and isn't okay, what's acceptable, And I believe that Jess
and David do have two quite different beliefs and perspectives
about this, and that has destabilize a lot of the
trust between them. However, if we don't get to the

(01:05:16):
things underneath that, it's very hard to work on the
more touchy issues around cheating and sex and trust. So
I often see couples getting so stuck on the sex
and the you know, the high intensity bits of mistrust,
but actually there will be something underneath that that has

(01:05:36):
created a bit of tension or lack of stability, which
then makes the more higher intensity things set off real
big alarm bells for people. So in David and Jess's case,
looking at the fact that Jess feels that David is
ashamed of her is actually the beginning of her working
through what she needs to to be able to trust

(01:05:58):
him in those more higher alarm bell situations with other women.

Speaker 3 (01:06:08):
I'm feeling really quite positive about the session that we've
just had Sarah. I think is amazing because she's picked
up on things that are really big issues, and we
might not have realized that there are big issues, and
she's allowed us to sort of start to deconstruct them

(01:06:28):
already in a way that's got me thinking more about
his perspective and him sort of looking at my perspective
with a bit more compassion rather than dismissing me. I'm
just thinking about David, and I feel like right now
he's probably feeling good about the fact that we're still

(01:06:50):
talking to each other and maybe we've got a bit
more clarity on each other's point of view. But I
know that he feels a bit worried about the homework,
and I suspect he's not sure whether that's achievable or not,
and he's probably looking forward because he's a little bit pessimistic.
I am too, but he's probably a little bit worried

(01:07:12):
about what's going to happen if we're not able to
do the homework, or if the homework doesn't sort of
pan out the way that we're hoping it will.

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
Yeah, So how I'm feeling about the session today. I
think it was helpful. Actually, well it was. It was
good because we didn't go too much in detail, so
we looked at the important things like communication styles or
but we didn't go too much in detail, so I
think it avoided potential triggers. The other thing is what

(01:07:51):
we held our hands together, so that I think it
helped as well. So yeah, just did not did not
feel the need to leave or anything like that. It helped.
And yeah, no, I think it's good also because it's
the first session we've managed to do with about outcome.

(01:08:12):
It's not been good in the past basically, So where
do I think we will be as a couple next week?
I think we should be okay. I think we'll be okay.
I mean I'm hoping more than okay, but I think
it will help, But you're not This session today will help.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
My hopes for the next session is to see David
really come in with some solid ideas. He may have
even implemented one or two things. I don't know. We'll see,
but some solid ideas around how he can make Jess
feel like she's a part of his life, that he's
proud of her, and that he wants the world to
know it. I'm hoping that Jess is able to come
up with a really well articulated plan about what she'll

(01:08:54):
do if she starts feeling uncomfortable at social situations, how
she'll communicate that to David, and what he can do
to help support her to regulate again so that she
doesn't have to feel like she has to isolate every
time that she's just regulated. This This Is Why We
Fight was created by Naima Brown and Eliza Sorman Nilson.
The executive producer is Naima Brown. Our studio engineer is

(01:09:18):
Lou Hill. Sound design and music by Tom Lyon. Additional
production support from Leah Porgus and Coco Levine. Our casting
producer was Lisa Storer. If this conversation has brought up
any hard feelings or if you feel like you need
a bit of help, there are links in our show
notes to resources available to you right now, as well
as how to connect with my practice Motivated Minds. If

(01:09:40):
you'd like to apply to be on the next season
of This Is Why we fight. There's a link to
the application in our show notes too. The second part
of Jesson David's session comes out in a few days,
but if you don't want to wait, Mum and Mia
subscribers have early access to the episode in full right now.
Follow the link in the show notes to listen. Meet
you there,