June 26, 2024 • 50 mins
Talking about mental health can be tough, and many of us just laugh it off. Khanh Ong often does this to make others comfortable, but this conversation is different.
Khanh is a chef, author, and media personality who has been able to taste so much success since bursting onto our screens on Master Chef. However it was his time in the "I’m A Celebrity" jungle that helped him realise the one thing stopping him from happiness.
In this chat, he opens up about that one thing, how success doesn’t change your perception of yourself and how your childhood shapes who you become as an adult.
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Listen to last week's episode: Brooke Blurton Is So Much More Than The Bachelorette
If you want to hear more about Khanh's story, read his book A Gay Guy's Guide to Life Love Food
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CREDITS:
Host: Clare Stephens
Guest: Khanh Ong
Audio Producer: Scott Stronach
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mama Me. I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
And I thought tic tik tik tik tik, being like,
oh my god, this is amazing. I've got my first
actual travel TV show and this is amazing. And all
I could remember is sitting there going why do I
look so overweight? What is going on with my skin?
What is going on with my hair? Why I'm a
(00:42):
mannerisms like that? Is this why I'm single?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello, and welcome to But Are You Happy? The podcast
that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
the people who appear to have it all. Karnong is
an immensely talented chef and media personality who you may
have seen on shows like Master Chef, Survivor and more
recently on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here.
(01:08):
But Karan's life began in an Indonesian refugee camp. His
parents made the journey to Australia by boat, where they
were attacked by pirates and had propellers break in shark
infested waters. When he was in year ten, he lost
his dad, which shook his family to their core.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
He found out a year and a half before we
found out, but he thought that there is no time
to deal with this. I have a year and a half,
two years, three years to build a business strong enough
so that my family will be fine.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We talk about how even in the moments where you
get at all, things don't necessarily feel right. The truth is,
if you're not okay because of your mental health or
a breakup or low self esteem, you don't suddenly become
confident just because the country adores you. Here's my chat
with Khanong. Khanong, you're one of Australia's most adored TV personalities.
(02:07):
You're a cook and an author, and you've appeared on
Master Chef and Survivor. You have your own show on
SBS Food called Carnung's Wild Food, and you've published a cookbook,
A Gays Guide to Life, Love and Food. Most recently,
you've come out of the South African jungle for I'm
a celebrity, Get me out of here. But putting aside
(02:28):
everything we can see from the outside, what's the reality
of your life right now?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Firstly, can you tell how awkward I got when you
were reading that I am not a words of affirmation
kind of person.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
That is not my love language. I just like become like, ah,
thank you so much. And I do not know how
to deal with people telling me things that I've done.
The reality is that everything is a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I feel as though people look at my socials and
they're like, all he does is cook and he's smiling
and he's happy.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
But it's like schedules.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's all schedules, and it's like every single bit of
my life is down to half an hour blocks, which
I love because I like to stay busy. That's my
whole thing. I've grown up with parents that are they
work very hard. So for me, I'm like, if I'm
not doing something, I'm not working. Like if I'm staying
still right now, I'm not working. And I need to
be working because my mom and dad like came over
(03:24):
here to give me opportunities for me to like better
my life.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I need to better my life.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think that's such a good point to make that
when you are a person of your profile and who
is leaning in to so many opportunities, it's not all
fun and it is a whole lot of work that
people don't see.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
But you can't talk about it and you can't complain
about it, and you can't say anything. It's fun, yeah,
because it's like, well, I'm sorry that you get to
you know, fly everywhere and film like content and like
see new things or like do I'm a celeb or
like you get to meet these amazing people you can't
complain and I'm like, yeah, but it's also like really.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Stressful sometimes and sometimes I'm tired.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, And I'm sorry that I'm like, but I feel
like everyone's allowed to complain because if you've I feel
a certain way, no one can take that away.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
From you, right exactly. And you were just in the jungle, Well,
I'm a celebrity and you were with reality stars and
actors and TV presenters and sports people and comedians. Tell
me about the experience of being in the jungle.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Let's just say I loved it so much, and it's
my favorite show that I've been on. Like I loved
Master Chef because it gave me a career survivor I
was a fan of, so I really wanted to do it.
I'm a celeb was a totally different beast where I
met all these people and I learned so much about
their lives, their families, but mostly it's a program where
(04:50):
there's a lot of downtime. And because there is so
much downtime, it was a moment for me for three
and a half weeks to kind of literally take myself
away from my real world and go, what do I
need right now? What do I want? What is missing?
And I think that's why I loved it so much.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Because you don't have a phone, you don't have any
of the distractions of modern life. I mean, I look
at it and I couldn't do any of the challenges.
I'd be absolutely hopeless. But there is something actually quite
profound about in this day and age going to the
jungle yep, only socially interacting with people in real life,
(05:27):
not having any of the busyness that usually gets us
through the day. How did you come out feeling?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
First of all, I think that you could do the challenges,
because I thought that I couldn't do the challenges, the trials,
But I feel like when you're in a space like that,
you just have to do it because you don't want
to let anyone down.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
When I came out of the jungle, I felt really refreshed.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
It wasn't the lack of phone or emails or friends,
family like work. But it was the idea that I
had time to really think about what my career looked like,
what I wanted it to be, and how I wanted
to change it so that I can do multiple things
at the same time, but also have more time to myself.
Because I found that being in the jungle, I realized
that I do need a lot more downtime then I
(06:11):
really thought that I did. Saying that today I have
like this zero downtown, I'm like, oh my god, I
learned that I need more downtime and that's not going
to happen until ten thirty at nine.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's currently eight fifteen in the morning.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And was there anybody that you met in jungle who
was very different to what you expected?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Candice Wuna?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
How was she different?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Candace Wuner is portrayed in the Australian media as this
hard exterior, this woman. She's an iron woman live, She's
super strong, she is nurturing, she loves her kids so much.
She only cares about her family. I was able to
(06:56):
have full conversations with her where she was really motherly
towards me and I really clicked with her From day
three or four where I went, oh my god, I
really really love you. I don't think this aired, but
there was a moment where cooked together and she was
talking about her husband and her kids and how hard
it was to be pregnant and flying to London at
(07:19):
the time because the word cup was on and she
was giving birth and she wasn't really allowed to see
her husband during it because they have no partner band.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And I went to the talking cried for half an hour.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
They didn't, but I was just like this woman, Like
she just looks so strong, but there's all of these
things that she's gone through that people don't even know
about because all they see is like this hard exterior.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It must be really fascinating to get to know the
human being behind the image, because all of those people
in the jungle you know to some extent. And what
I've always found fascinating is that sometimes it's the people
you think you'll get along with that you don't necessarily,
(08:04):
and the people that you think you'll have nothing in
common with that you weirdly bond with.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
It's so odd and Pete as well, like Pete's like
an AFL legend. Yeah, Like and I was like Okay,
well we're going to talk about like there's a generational
gap here, and also you're like AFL and like I
know nothing. Yeah, but again it was a family connection
where we spoke about like his family, his kids, his partner.
And it's those moments that I went, no one cares
(08:29):
about the Korea cares, No one cares about what you
do for a living. It all comes down to everyone
is here for their family. Everyone just wants to live
for their family and their loved ones.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And it's also a good reminder that you're right, it's
not what anybody cares about or talks about in actual life.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It's weird that I think, because we're often so obsessed
with just having a really shiny version of ourselves that
the world sees when you connect with another human being,
you're never talking about the superficial stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
It's also I find that it's this like label that
everyone gets given. You get smashed with a label and
everyone goes, that is you, that is who you are.
But there's also like forty five million layers behind that
that no one talks about because it's too hard to
because it's like, well, no, if you're not the aofl legend.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, it's a lot more complicated to get your head around.
We often ask on this show about a time the
world told you you'd be happy and you weren't, And
one of those times for you is actually right now.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yes, I am very happy. Yes I've got a lot
of things going on in my life. But when I
was in the jungle, when I was talking to everyone,
I was like, I really want kids, and I've always
really want kids, but I think it's kind of right
now that I'm thinking I need to start that process now, Like,
(09:55):
if I really do want kids, I need to start
that process now. And the idea that scares me and
makes me really upset is that I possibly might not
have them.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You're so right the thing about kids, because I have
just had a little question and it's a weirdly intentional decision.
It's for some reason. I think when you're growing up
you think it will just happen, But even woman heterosexual relationship,
it's really intentional. There's a moment where you have to
be like, oh, we have to decide that we want
(10:27):
to do this thing that we know is going to
change our lives. And for you, obviously it's thinking about
how we go about that. Am I going to do
that with my current partner? And so are you feeling
a sense of urgency?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I am feeling a sense of urgency.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
I'm at an age where, look, I probably still have
five or six years before it becomes very, very urgent.
But it's that idea of possibly ever having them that
is really scaring me right now. I always grew up
picturing myself with the farm, with the chickens and with
the kids, and you're completely right in your mind as
(11:06):
a child, you think it's just going to happen. And
I'm like, I don't know how that it's going to
happen right now, And I don't even know who that's
going to happen with. If I want to do it
with someone else, or if I do this alone, how
do I make that work?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
It is a thirty We cannot cry in the morning.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
When I was thinking about that, I was like, it's
the one thing that constantly is now in the back
of my mind, and it's like, when are you going
to do this?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You don't have time to write your next book.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
The kids are a massive one, Like you have to
sit down and actually really think about this, so right
now is the moment that I should be happy. But
there's this little thing in the back that is just
constantly there.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
There's so much honesty to that, and it's such a
reminder that from the outside it can look like someone
has everything, but there can be something really quiet that
they secretly wish that they had.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
A lot of my friends have just had children. Sarah Holloway.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she just had a baby.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yes, she had a baby an hour before I went
into the jungle. No after I went into the jungle,
and she was looking after my social she's my best friend.
Yeah yeah, and she's like calmed, you handed your phone over,
And then the.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Baby came and I just didn't know what to do.
I was like, oh my god, I missed the birthy
literally like an hour.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
But like I see kids now, and I see babies
and they just make me smile y. Yeah, Like I
just get really really happy with seeing Europe this potato
that does nothing all day.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
They're so funny. It's really hard to explain it. My
partner and I have said it reminds us of the
Matrix and like the Red pill and the Blue pill,
and once you have a kid. It's a bit like
you've chosen to take whichever the pill is that shows
you reality. Yeah, and you can't explain it to anybody else.
It's just a feeling, yeah, and like a knowing that
(13:02):
there's this amazing sense of meaning and that's it's not
for everyone. And actually having a child has made me realize, Yeah,
I don't think everyone should be a parent. It's really hard,
but I understand that longing that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I want to make them dinners that they won't want
to eat.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I want them to I want to take them places
and they're just going to shut tantrums and just really
test me, like I want. I get jealous to see
all of the things that my friends have to go through,
which look painful, but to me, I'm.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Like, I want that. After the break, Khan opens up
about his childhood, including his mom's unexpected reaction when he
came out to her. He also talks about losing his
dad and the secret his dad kept from their family.
(13:56):
You were born in an Indonesian refugee camp, and you
spent the first two years of your life there. Tell
me what you know about what your parents' lives looked
like at that time.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So mom and Dad went to Indonesia. That's where the
refugee camp was via boat. I think they got caught
by authorities in Malaysian waters and were then escorted to Indonesia.
But I think the whole idea behind leaving Vietnam was
not to make it to Australia or make it anywhere,
but it was just to be caught outside of Vietnamese
(14:30):
waters so that then you can get processed. So they
ended up in Indonesia in a place called Going, which
I recently researched because I think I'm trying to organize
to get my mum back there.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
It's an island that had mostly Vino Meis refugees that
were being processed for Germany, the US, Canada, Australia, and
there were thousands and thousands there at the same time.
I don't think it's the same way that people think
of refugee camps now. It's not so much prison line.
It's an island with like houses and uts and things
(15:02):
like that. Everyone kind of had like jobs within the community.
So Mum was a seamstress. Dad chopped wood, but also
so collected snakes because there were snakes all over the
Island and apparently he went and he would wrangle them
and that was part of what he did for a living.
But yeah, life in the refugee acount was a very
different where you kind of did make a living.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
You were like exchanging skills and things like that.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
There's photos that I've seen of them with like friends
they traveled with and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That were Yeah, but they were there for four years.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Then basically it's a system where once you get processed,
you go to a country. That system is really once
you have enough money to get processed, you go to
a country where it's like you have like you got
to pay for the paperwork, you got to pay for
certain things, but it's really the money that gets you somewhere.
So it did require a lot of our extended family
chipping in to get them processed to come to Australia.
(15:56):
So they came to Australia when I was two. We
were living with an auntie who was not really my auntie.
We just shared the same last name, which is how
it amuse people work if you've got the same last
name your family. We moved to Southeast suburbs of Melbourne.
Dad opened his first butcher shop, put all his money
in to do that. Mum was working still as the
(16:17):
seamstress at night doing samples and stuff, but during the
day would help at.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
The butcher shop.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
They would work, They were workhorses. We didn't spend a
lot of time together, which is not their fault. They
worked and the time that I would spend with Mum
and Dad would be after hours in the kitchen where
they would do brief about their day and I remember
sitting on the kitchen counter like that's just what I did.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And as you started to grow up in Australia, do
you remember that as being a happy childhood.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I do.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I think it's because I grew up in Swing Vale,
which is a very Vitnamese area, Like everyone was pretty
much Vitamise, where I went to a primary school and
it wasn't until like I went to high school that
I even knew that I was potentially a little bit different.
In high school, there were little things like it's a
name that like we shorten as Australians, but I didn't
even think about it. It was like probably like Nathaniel
(17:12):
and Nathan or something like that. It's something stupid where
a longer name is short into a tiny name, and
I remember reading books and that never made sense to me.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So it was like Daniel and Dan, I was like
I never understood that.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Or like William and Billy. Yeah, never understood It's like
what but yeah, it's only through that being in your
family or whatever that actually starts to make sure.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, and my parents don't speak English.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Mum speaks English Ish now, so I didn't grow up
with all like these nuances of like language and things
that would make sense to me. And there was even
other little things that made me feel different where I remember,
in just seven, we were playing cricket or we were
being taught how to play cricket, and I just didn't
know if once I hit the wall, I had to
(17:56):
run or not, and just like and it's like little
things like that where no one explains that to.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
You, but the others will have just had it on
the background on the TV for their whole childhood. Yeah,
and so it goes without saying to them, Yeah, what
you do? I mean, I actually don't know if i'd
run on, but yeah, I can imagine there's a little
boy You're like, hold on.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
A second, yeah, And I have no idea, And then
like I feel embarrassed to usk like we would be
like playing football and I'm like, okay, cool, so you
kick the ball, you handle the ball, you can't throw
the ball. Why can't you throw the ball? Like, I
just don't understand any of these rules. And these are
the little things that I feel like immigrants go through
that no one ever even talks about. Like it's these
(18:39):
little tiny things that makes me feel like an idiot.
And it's things that I still remember from my childhood
that isn't really that big of a deal, but at
that moment for me, it is a big deal because
I feel super dumb.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, and as you're growing up, you're getting this sense
that there's something different and then you start to come
to terms with this textuality. So what age were you
when you start to think about that?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
There were multiple times. The first time.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Was year eight, Yeah, year eight where I went to
a Hailarbry, a parallel education where boys go to boys classes,
girls go to girls classes. We spend recess and lunches together.
So I felt really comfortable at that school. Came out
all good friends, no problems. Changed schools. Went to Melbourne High.
(19:37):
It's a very Vinamese family thing where they want you
to go to Melbourne High School because it's a selective school.
It costs nothing, and it's like they take like the
top two percent of every other high school got in.
Mom and dad are so happy with me. I fucking
hated it. I remember I went to Melbourne High. I
was commuting. It would take me from the moment of
(19:57):
waking up to get to school about an hour and
fifteen minutes and it was every day walking up this
hill going home an hour of fifteen minutes sitting on
the train. Everyone was really really academic.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But it's pretty incredible to come from not speaking English
at home to then getting into a really competitive selective school.
Like that's some natural intelligence, but that's also bloody hard work.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Okay, so I'm going to let you in on a
little secret. My mum and dad they know exactly how
to work me. Mum still knows how to work me.
And basically it was like, Okay, if you get into
this school, you can go to Vietnam every year, I
don't know, holiday during school holidays. And I was like,
oh yeah, cool, done. So it was like always little
rewards for me.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Side note, where in Vietnam where you from originally?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
So It is the southern tip of Vietnam, a town
called Gamau Fishing Village, really small. Grammar and granddads still
live there. I've still got some uncles and aunties there.
I do visit from time to time. It is really
beautiful on the Mekong Delta, about eight hours drive south
of Hochimun City.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Oh gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I love Vitnam.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Then Mum and dad said, do you know what if
you want to go back to Haylarbury, it's one way
you can do it, and you just have to make
the schooling equal, so like the cost has to.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Be the same. And I was like, how the hell
am I going to do that?
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So I started applying for different scholarships at Halearbury and
I got a general Excellence and then that wasn't enough,
so I sat academic exam and that got me the
rest of it, and so my schooling became free. Yeah,
and so Mum and Dad allowed me to come back
to Halebury and it was the best thing ever because
(21:40):
I feel so at home at that school. I am
obsessed with the school, I'm obsessed with the alumni. I
will send my kids there in a heartbeat. I felt
totally supported for being gay for everything, Like they just
were really nurtury.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
When you do start thinking about your sexuality, do you
think about having to share it publicly or are you
trying to work it out privately.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
So I came out when in your eight, went back
in the closet when I went to almaheen ' nine.
Came back out at the end of nine because I
went back to Hillary. But it wasn't really something that
I had to share with the public. It was just
like something that I was exploring with my friends at
school to be like, oh, yeah, I'm interested in these guys,
blah blah blah blah blah whatever. It never became a
(22:25):
big thing until it came to the point where I
had to speak to like my mom about it. Sorry,
there's a lot going on in this whole period of
my life. My father passed away when I was sixteen
and I was towards the end of year ten, and
that really pivoted my entire life where I no longer
wanted to be a plastic surgeon. I wanted to dive
(22:47):
headfirst into fashion. At the same time Mom and I
were not getting along. I went back to school after
dad died the day after and just did the normal thing,
didn't really give it too much thought, life went on
as normal.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I didn't deal with it.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I basically just didn't deal with dad dying, and so
I took it out on mom, and I took out
our mom for a couple of years. When I was eighteen,
towards the end of year twelve, I remember I was
sitting in the car with her and she was like,
I started hanging out with someone. I was like, I
don't want to talk about it. She's like, oh, what
would you think about me daddy? I was like, I
don't want to talk about it, and that kent went
on for about four or five I don't want to
(23:24):
talk about it until I decided to open the door
of the car and roll out.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Oh my gosh, I am horrific. Like I was a
horrific teenager.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I mean, you were going through a lot at the
same time, but that is a scary thing to do. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I literally was like, I would rather roll out of
this movie car than continue to have this conversation with you. Anyway,
totally regretted that because I had to walk home for
three kilometers. So I'm walking home and but that really
just changed our relationship where Mum didn't feel comfortable speaking
to me anymore. I just didn't want to talk to
her anymore. I hadn't come out of that point to
(24:01):
my family, and I ran away, not from home, but.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Like I ran away in the senses. I moved to
London to study fashion.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Just before I decided that I'm going going to run
to London and like run away from my mother, I
thought that I would weaponize my sexuality.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Oh wow, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Which is like insane and like not the normal coming
out story where I just literally sat in front of her.
I'm like, okay, I want another fight, and I reckon
that if I come out now, there will be a fight.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I've never heard someone say that, but that is such
a authentically teenage thing to do.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, And like I did struggle with ever talking about
this because it makes me fucking sound like the worst
person ever. That I literally sat there and was like,
I'm going to weaponize coming out. So I sat down
and I said I wasn't even like very calm about it.
I was like, hey, yes, I have something to tell you.
I'm gay, like guys, And I just like watched her
for a bit and she was.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Like, how do you feel about going to vi Nam?
And I was like, what.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
A separate question?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
In my mind, I was like, okay, so she's going
to send me to like some kind of camp where
they rehabilitate me into not being gay. Instead, my mom
goes the community is very big in Vietnam. You can
probably make a really good career there. You might become
quite famous.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And I'm like, excuse.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Me, It's like you were meant to be angry.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah, you were meant to be angry. You were meant
to be like sad. You were meant to do something
that would cause me to fight you. Instead, I'm laughing.
I'm like, I'm sorry. So your answer to me being
a homosexual is that you would like me to go
to Vietnam and try and become famous. I love it,
and I literally I love her like I love like.
(25:43):
My mom and I are really close now. But I've
like because after that, I was like, Okay, well, I
can't really do anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
My mom loves me, damn it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Wow, my coming out story wasn't a sad one. No,
She's always been really supportive. But I flew to London
to do my UNI there at Saint Martin's and it
was hell for me.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I couldn't afford to do anything.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I was making like five pound an hour working like
minimum els because you can't even work for time there
as a student, So I couldn't pay for rent, I
couldn't pay for food, and I couldn't pay to do anything,
and I couldn't pay for my schooling. I think Mum
was helping with the schooling at the time, but still
it was not enough money to do anything. So I
decided that I was going to come back and try
and do fashion school here. But to come back, I
was like, hey, Mom, I don't think I can live
(26:26):
with you. I think for our relationship to now work,
I have to live outside of this house. And I
pretty much apologized to her and I said, you know,
the last three years, I've been pretty braddy. I was
just not a nice person. I was not a nice kid,
Like obviously there's the whole dad thing, but I feel
really guilty about it a lot, and I've spoken to
(26:48):
her about it a lot, and she was like, you're
like seventeen, like it's expected for you to just be hard.
But yeah, became really close after that. When I apologized
and I was like, I'm like, I'm really sorry. You're
allowed to see whoever you want. Like you are still young.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
When you're looking at a parent, I can see how
you think, no, no, your only job is to be
my mom.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, And so I was just like, that was a
ridiculous reaction of me to have about you dating.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
And since then.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
We've been really, really good. I try to see my mom.
Over the past ten years, I try to see her
every week. Over the past three years, it has become
every second week because it's been a little bit busier,
but I speak to her pretty much two three times
a week.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I love how you tried to be rejected by your mother.
She's like, I accept you. So you were in year
ten when your dad passed away. Yes, he was sick. Yeah,
And is it true that he didn't tell dad.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
My father had started the butcher shop.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
My father had hap bee from Vietnam, just like from
being like in poverty. He had hep B, which then
changed to liver cancer. Yeah, progress it became liver cancer.
He found out about a year and a half before
we found out. He found out about it, but he
thought that there is no time to deal with this.
(28:11):
I have a year and a half, two years, three
years to build a business strong enough so that my
family will be fine.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Oh there's nothing more self like heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
It's so ridiculous, Like I don't think I could do
something like that, but yeah, I remember when I was sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen and he had passed away. I think the reason
why I wasn't dealing with it was I was kind
of pissed off as well that my father literally kept
like this massive secret from the entire family. And yes,
it's a very self list thing to do, but I
(28:46):
thought it was also a very selfish thing to do,
especially because I'm like, my sister is nine, and instead
of trying to take care of your health, you may
leave a nine year old without a father.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah yeah, yeah, and not sharing it meant there was
less time for everyone to just be aware of it
and spend as a family. I know, yeah, and know
that this was potentially the end.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, But the crazy thing is if dad didn't do that,
Mum wouldn't have the life that she currently has. And
so I'm like, Okay, that's horrific and like a horrible,
like just a shit thing to do. But at the
same time, I kind of see why you did it,
because this is exactly what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, And what was it like to actually lose him?
Were you in the room?
Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
I was in the room.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Were in the My mom, once she had found out,
decided that she would do everything, and when I say everything,
I mean everything to try and fix it, like that
was her thing where it was like modern medicine wasn't working,
Western medicine wasn't working. We're gonna see witch doctors. Dad
was so against it. He was like, I'm weak, blah
(30:07):
blah blah. I don't want to die and be dumb,
like I don't want to passway. And so the night
before we were supposed to fly to Vietnam, we were
all sitting like in the mountain room like packing, dealing
with that, like our passports. That was the night the
dad passed away. Wow, And it was just him going,
I'm not going at it.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
M yeah, I'm not leaving, like I'm not doing this.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It happened also fast, but also so slow that I
was just like I didn't even know that he was
actually dying.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Like it was like I think he went into a
hahjack from it.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
And then we called the ambulance they came blah blah blah,
but he was gone. But I didn't even really register
to me that my dad wasn't there anymore. That it
was like I'm like, no, no, Like you watch this
on TV. The ambulance comes, they take them away and.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Then they end up in hospital. Yeah. Yeah, and that
was just it. But literally that was the last moment.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Wow, looking back at your dad's life, do you think
your dad was happy?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Dad was definitely happy.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Mom and Dad have a relationship that I really looked
up to, not part where he didn't tell her that
was dying and not the heart, the part where they
did everything in their power to be together. Like they
left Vietnam together even though my grandma and my grandma's
on both sides were totally against it. They didn't want
(31:27):
my parents to be here together. They came to Australia.
They build a family together, they build business together. They
were so madly in love and they just wanted this family.
And that's something that I didn't really think until just
about now.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
When you asked me that, I was like, ah, so
that's where that comes from.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Yea, yeah, because even now, like Mom dates like she's
having boyfriends and things before. But when I asked her,
does it get more like serious in this that you
think of getting me married? Because she goes, no, I
had the love of my life. It's gone now like
this is just more of a companion thing.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Up next, we chat about the impact that being cheated
on had on Calm self esteem, the experience of watching
yourself on television and hating how you look, and why
can't thinks that even successful people don't always find more
happiness when they get what they want. Calm, there's another
(32:28):
time in your life when the world told you you'd
be happy and you weren't. When was that?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
A little bit of a background on this when you
come off Master Chef right, and there are things that
you want as a contestant. You want restaurants, or you
want cookbooks, or you want TV shows, or you just
want to like write for a publication, whatever it is.
There are things that they're a goalposts for you. I
had gotten the cookbook, I'd gotten the restaurant, I'd gotten
(32:58):
the TV show, I was writing for publications, and then
I was onto my next television show, Karlon's Wild Food,
a show that was my dream show, is my dream show,
and I thought, tick tick tick tick tick, We've ticked
off like the four major things that you want to
do as a Master Chef contestant, and.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
A lot of people get none of them. It's a
certain type of person who has stood out and who
Australia has fallen in love with that gets those opportunities.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You're like, who, thank you. Yeah. So I was on
Conan's Wild Food.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
I was watching the pilot and I was going through
a breakup at the time, and I remember being like,
oh my god, this is amazing. I've got my first
like actual travel TV show, and this is amazing. And
all I could remember is sitting there going why do
I look so overweight? What is going on with my skin?
(33:52):
What is going on with my hair? Why I'm a
mannerism is like that is this why I'm single? Like
I was going through the breakup and watching myself at
the time the same time, which was horrible, and like
I just was not happy with how I looked and
I had never really cared that. Yeah, I care about
my clothes. I came about my hair and stuff like that.
(34:12):
But I'm always like I'm fit, Like I go to
the gym. Yes, I'm a chef and I eat a lot,
but I go to the gym. But this was the
first time where I saw myself on camera and I went,
this is forever and this is why I'm single.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Wow, because I reckon a lot of people get those
sort of opportunities, whether it's like a photo shoot or
you're doing an ad or something like that, and it
looks so flash and so exciting, and no one prepares
you for the fact that you might look at it
and think, my hell, look shit, and everybody's looking at it,
and it's this visceral feeling of I feel yuck, and
(34:49):
I feel like that's going to be there forever ever,
and I feel like I don't look my best and
that makes me feel like shit.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
It's like I know that, like it's a very superficial
thing to feel, but at the time, I remember just going,
this is the reason I currently don't have love in
my life.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And to weave those two things together, yeah, is so
I'm human but unhealthy and so arbitrary. So you were
feeling rejected.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I was feeling rejected.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I was thinking like, maybe I'm just like super annoying,
or my laugh is blah blah blah. I know that
we don't fatciate, but I'm like, in my mind, maybe I'm.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Just fat You start with the self talk, yeah, and that.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Was what I was feeling.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
And then I was watching like these little edits of
my own TV show, and that was running through my mind.
I'm like, is that conversation I'm having with that person annoying?
Like will the viewer look at that and go, oh god,
he's just hit his on again? Or like it was
just ridiculous that it was a TV show that was
so proud to have as my own, but yet there
(35:52):
was this constant stream of negativeativity that just made me
really upset.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, even though if you had looked at it, you know,
years in the past, if you had told yourself, I'm
mean to have my own TV show, you would have
thought I am the happiest I've ever been.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
So you've also talked about having been cheated on and
how that kind of changed your idea of relationships. What
was that experience?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Like, Okay, so the cheating he is a really funny one.
Being cheated on it it's not funny. But I was
seeing this guy and everything was fine. We were no monogamous,
We had other partners whatever. We were in bed one
night and he goes, have you been sleeping with anyone else?
I was like, no, not really for the last month
or so.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I was like have you guys? No, not really, and
then I was like okay. He goes, do you want
to just not? And I'm like, yeah, I would like that.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Fast forward a month find out that he slept with
someone that night, Like, I'm like, why did we have
this conversation?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Why did you It's like he wanted it to be
cheated because it's like he put the rule in so
he could break.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeahs odd, But it's so weird because it was like
we were fine, like we were sleeping with other people.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, we hadn't been actively doing it, but like that
was allowed. And also like I was totally fine with
you sleeping with someone else. It was honest. It was
just so insane to me. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
From that moment, I kind of changed the way I
thought about relationships and I'm like, so I don't care
about the sex thing, Like I don't care if my
partner sleeps with someone else. What I cared about in
that moment was the lie of it all. So I
am currently hanging out seeing someone there is a special
(37:30):
man in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
He wrote you a letter.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah, I'm just to put that out. He's not my boyfriend,
but like in the Jungle, they put boyfriend. And I
was mortified when I came out because I read it
and I went, oh, my gosh, we've been labeled. We'd
have literally just gone away together and everything's fine. We
are in a situation.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
GYP non monogamous.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
And the reason behind that is I think personally it's
not for everyone, but I think that the act of
cheating or sleeping with someone isn't the thing that is
the most hurtful part. The most hurtful part is the
betrayal is the lie. And if you can have an
open conversation with your partner about what your needs are.
We've always been very open what your needs are, whether
(38:14):
it be in the bedroom or like communication, whatever it is,
and you can pick out the things that your partner
may not be able to provide you, then you're taking
away the lie and you're taking away the betrayal. So
with me, I'm like, well, it doesn't make sense for
us to be traveling, not living in the same state
(38:34):
and be completely monogamous. Knowing that we'll go weeks on
end without seeing each other, like see wherever you want.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Do you generally in relationships? Do you not believe in monogamy?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
I always called myself monogamish, being that like, if my
partner needed me to be monogamous, then it's something that
we would speak about and I would probably be totally
okay with it and we'll do it. But we've had
a lot of conversations where we're both monogamish, where it's
if we found ourselves living in the same city, living
(39:09):
in the same home, totally yeah, like that makes sense,
Like we want a family, we want kids, Like that
makes total sense to us. But saying that it's monogamish
because if we travel, you're overseas, you're somewhere else and
this is horrible, but people who travel for work are
(39:31):
very very likely to cheat.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
That's very true, very true.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
It's like like I obviously don't have any status behind that,
so like, don't come.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Out, no, it just from my own life, I know
that that's what happens. And it's also harder to trust
somebody because you're just not with them every night. You
can't see what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, and like I travel a lot.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
The person I'm hanging out with, we're gonna call him Rhino.
That's because that's what I called him all through the jungle.
So Rhino travels a lot. I travel a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And do you think a relationship now is something you
factor into your idea of a happy life?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Oh, I was like, whoa, Yeah, this actually happened in
the jungle where I was like, I really miss this person.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I really want to be with this person.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
I also really want now to not care as much
about my career, not in the sense that I still
don't want to be working a lot, but I think
now there's time to kind of give that other side
of my life a little bit of love. I am
thirty now, so I'm starting to think about what that
(40:37):
kind of looks like, what my future looks like, what
my family life looks like.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
And yeah, so I would like to meet a person
and have kids and have a farm.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
And when you think about how you define happiness, you're
so young now, But if you think about being an
old man and looking back and thinking I had a
happy life, what do you think that looked like.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
In the jungle, A few people figured it out. They're like,
you really just want to cook. I honestly just want
to cook, Like I want to watch people eat and
enjoy my food, or cook for themselves and tell me
that my kids really like this dish.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Like that is happiness.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
That is actually, if we got rid of everything else
and we just had people cooking my food and enjoying it,
that is happiness.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
And why do you think that is? What is it
about that act and about food? Is it mindfulness? Is
it actually being in the moment and taking time to
learn about the things.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
As I was growing up, I said that I spent
a lot of time in the kitchen with my mom
and my dad. We cooked a lot together, and I
remember it being a time where I was really really
happy because I was spending time with my parents. And
I think that's where my love of food comes from.
And I think somewhere in that whole idea, I reckon
that if other people are cooking, they're probably going to
be cooking with their friends or their family or their children,
(42:09):
and the probably going to have these experiences that will
be lifelong, core memories of happiness for them. I always
feel this sense of like pride when I've cooked for
people and they're sitting there and they've enjoyed something that
I've done. So a lot of the dishes that you'll
find now that I'm pushing out, all the dishes I'm
filming are very simple, very quick and no fuss, even
(42:33):
like my my new series which is Table for One,
where I just like teach people how to cook for
themselves and then have it enough just.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
For one exactly, So a challenge that people have when
you're living on your own. Anything, Oh, I won't cook
because they'll just be so much waste. Yeah, it's such
a good idea.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yeah, well, I currently live alone, so I'm like, yes,
I have this, and then I packed the other leftover
into a lunch box and I have it for lunch.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I don't really give it to my concierge, but I
have it for lunch.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
So I wanted to ask finally about what you think
about the relationship between success and happiness from a humble
background in terms of a refugee camp, coming to Australia,
your family, starting a life again, and now you have
(43:21):
the kind of success I'm sure you and your family
could not have even imagined back then. Do you think
that over that period your happiness has increased or do
you think that as we become more successful and we
get more of what we want, our expectations and desires
(43:43):
just change and we stay about the same in terms
about how we feel.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
We definitely say the same.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
We definitely say the same because I feel like the
happiest signs that I remember are my childhood, with my family,
with my sister.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I'm sitting on the counter with my mom cooking.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
But do you think when you look at your life
and you think about the things that you've really wanted
and then getting them, Yeah, have you noticed that there's
complexity there?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I have mentioned her like twenty four times for Sarah
and I have these very in depth conversations where we've
gone walks and we just talk about our entire life.
We complain about things that we're not supposed to complain about,
but we can to each other. Yeah, And one of
the complaints are that it's kind of ridiculous that we've
gone to a stage in our life where we have goals.
We have these goals that are huge goals that we
(44:31):
might have told each other two years, three years before,
and then we achieve those goals. We achieve those goals
and we'll go yay for about five seconds, and then
we go what's next, and we move on, and it's like,
wait a minute, why wasn't I super excited that I
am the Australian ambassador for AMEX and I have been
(44:52):
for two years. Like that's crazy. Like I have my
own TV show, crazy. I have one cookbook but a
deal to do three more insane. I have the opportunity
to do another TV show. I've been given a timeslot.
All I have to do is make the co for it.
And yet I don't celebrate any of these things. I
(45:13):
just go, Okay, cool, what's next.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
It's just a treadmill of just yep, yep, yep, yep, yep,
and then your baseline changes of what it feels like
you need in order to feel satisfied.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
This is why I think what I really want is
that family, that life, because I'm like, right now, I
am only just kicking these goals because I am searching
for something, like I can't get what I really want,
so instead I'm like, yeah, I don't need anything.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
I'm just going to become like a multi millionaire and travel.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
The world and just like eat food and like wear
nice clothes and be tanned all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
But if you got all those things, would you feel empty?
Would there be something missing?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
I reckon you would, yeah, because I think that, Like,
I just want to cook for my family every single meal,
every breakfast, every lunch and every dinner, and be sad
when my kids tell me that they don't want something
that would make them for lunch.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
That's all about Yeah, Khan, You're loved by the Australian public.
You've built a career I'm sure you could have only
dreamed of when you're a kid, and it feels like
you truly get to do what you love and your
passion is palpable. But are you happy?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
I am happy to an extent Like this whole time
I've spoken, you can tell that I'm a pretty happy person.
I'm very happy. I'm very fortunate. I'm very thankful for
everything I have. The only thing that's missing for me
are the kids. Yeah, I think, But I don't think
I'm at that stage of my life yet where that
(46:47):
is going to rip my soul apart right now. It's
really I need to start thinking about it. I need
to start working out whether I be adopting, whether it
would be surrogacy, or whatever way that I want to
have children. I think this is now when I really
need to start think about it and actually dedicate some
time to sit down and map it out, because it's
(47:10):
not just going to happen, especially for a homosexual man.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
It's not just going to happen. I'm not going to
just feel pregnant. You never know.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
This was such an enlightening conversation because you can see
in Karn a human experience that's universal. The stuff he
struggles with is both the big stuff and the little stuff.
It's being a kid and not feeling like you fit
in because you don't have a cultural context that matches
your peers, because you weren't born in a hospital in
(47:46):
the next suburb, but in a refugee camp. And it's
also second guessing everything about yourself because you were cheated on.
And it's also deciding you want to have kids and
not knowing how you're going to make that happen. He
also shows how the things we think are going to
go wrong and are going to be hard and upsetting
(48:07):
sometimes surprise us. For him, it was thinking that his
mum was going to react badly to him opening up
about his sexuality and then discovering that he was wrong
about that, and also going into the jungle and meeting
people who he was wrong about, people he had preconceived
judgments about, and how connecting with those people is an
(48:29):
enormous source of happiness. Join me next week for a
chat with radio host, podcaster, media personality and writer Laura Burrn.
We talk about how she dealt with scrutiny about her
appearance during a time when she should have felt confident
and in love, and how giving birth to her first
baby was nothing like what she expected.
Speaker 6 (48:53):
And Matt was in the kitchen with Marley, and I
was sitting on the side of the bed and you know,
he like massive pads and you want a pillow, booms
her everything. You're just like, haven't slept in two days.
The emotions really hit you. And she was in the
little bassinet next to the bed, and I remember sitting
there looking at her and I was like, we have
ruined our lives.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
On last week's episode, I spoke with media personality, youth worker, podcaster,
and author Brook Blurton about processing trauma, balancing the pursuit
of individual happiness with the needs and struggles of your community,
and the moment you found love on national television and
received news of a personal tragedy at the same time.
(49:31):
There's a link in the show notes to listen to
that episode. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us
a review. It really helps people to find us. And
if you'd like to suggest someone for the podcast, we
love suggestions, so you can email us here at podcast
at mummeya dot com dot au, or find me on
(49:52):
Instagram and send me a message at Claire dot Stevens.
This episode was produced by Tarlie Blackman, with audio production
by Scott Stronik. See you next week.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mama Me. I acknowledges the traditional owners of the land
and waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
And I thought tic tik tik tik tik, being like,
oh my god, this is amazing. I've got my first
actual travel TV show and this is amazing. And all
I could remember is sitting there going why do I
look so overweight? What is going on with my skin?
What is going on with my hair? Why I'm a
(00:42):
mannerisms like that? Is this why I'm single?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Hello, and welcome to But Are You Happy? The podcast
that asks the questions you've always wanted to know from
the people who appear to have it all. Karnong is
an immensely talented chef and media personality who you may
have seen on shows like Master Chef, Survivor and more
recently on I'm a Celebrity, Get Me out of Here.
(01:08):
But Karan's life began in an Indonesian refugee camp. His
parents made the journey to Australia by boat, where they
were attacked by pirates and had propellers break in shark
infested waters. When he was in year ten, he lost
his dad, which shook his family to their core.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
He found out a year and a half before we
found out, but he thought that there is no time
to deal with this. I have a year and a half,
two years, three years to build a business strong enough
so that my family will be fine.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
We talk about how even in the moments where you
get at all, things don't necessarily feel right. The truth is,
if you're not okay because of your mental health or
a breakup or low self esteem, you don't suddenly become
confident just because the country adores you. Here's my chat
with Khanong. Khanong, you're one of Australia's most adored TV personalities.
(02:07):
You're a cook and an author, and you've appeared on
Master Chef and Survivor. You have your own show on
SBS Food called Carnung's Wild Food, and you've published a cookbook,
A Gays Guide to Life, Love and Food. Most recently,
you've come out of the South African jungle for I'm
a celebrity, Get me out of here. But putting aside
(02:28):
everything we can see from the outside, what's the reality
of your life right now?
Speaker 3 (02:36):
Firstly, can you tell how awkward I got when you
were reading that I am not a words of affirmation
kind of person.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
That is not my love language. I just like become like, ah,
thank you so much. And I do not know how
to deal with people telling me things that I've done.
The reality is that everything is a lot of work.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
I feel as though people look at my socials and
they're like, all he does is cook and he's smiling
and he's happy.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
But it's like schedules.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
It's all schedules, and it's like every single bit of
my life is down to half an hour blocks, which
I love because I like to stay busy. That's my
whole thing. I've grown up with parents that are they
work very hard. So for me, I'm like, if I'm
not doing something, I'm not working. Like if I'm staying
still right now, I'm not working. And I need to
be working because my mom and dad like came over
(03:24):
here to give me opportunities for me to like better
my life.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
I need to better my life.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think that's such a good point to make that
when you are a person of your profile and who
is leaning in to so many opportunities, it's not all
fun and it is a whole lot of work that
people don't see.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
But you can't talk about it and you can't complain
about it, and you can't say anything. It's fun, yeah,
because it's like, well, I'm sorry that you get to
you know, fly everywhere and film like content and like
see new things or like do I'm a celeb or
like you get to meet these amazing people you can't
complain and I'm like, yeah, but it's also like really.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Stressful sometimes and sometimes I'm tired.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, And I'm sorry that I'm like, but I feel
like everyone's allowed to complain because if you've I feel
a certain way, no one can take that away.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
From you, right exactly. And you were just in the jungle, Well,
I'm a celebrity and you were with reality stars and
actors and TV presenters and sports people and comedians. Tell
me about the experience of being in the jungle.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
Let's just say I loved it so much, and it's
my favorite show that I've been on. Like I loved
Master Chef because it gave me a career survivor I
was a fan of, so I really wanted to do it.
I'm a celeb was a totally different beast where I
met all these people and I learned so much about
their lives, their families, but mostly it's a program where
(04:50):
there's a lot of downtime. And because there is so
much downtime, it was a moment for me for three
and a half weeks to kind of literally take myself
away from my real world and go, what do I
need right now? What do I want? What is missing?
And I think that's why I loved it so much.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Because you don't have a phone, you don't have any
of the distractions of modern life. I mean, I look
at it and I couldn't do any of the challenges.
I'd be absolutely hopeless. But there is something actually quite
profound about in this day and age going to the
jungle yep, only socially interacting with people in real life,
(05:27):
not having any of the busyness that usually gets us
through the day. How did you come out feeling?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
First of all, I think that you could do the challenges,
because I thought that I couldn't do the challenges, the trials,
But I feel like when you're in a space like that,
you just have to do it because you don't want
to let anyone down.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
When I came out of the jungle, I felt really refreshed.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
It wasn't the lack of phone or emails or friends,
family like work. But it was the idea that I
had time to really think about what my career looked like,
what I wanted it to be, and how I wanted
to change it so that I can do multiple things
at the same time, but also have more time to myself.
Because I found that being in the jungle, I realized
that I do need a lot more downtime then I
(06:11):
really thought that I did. Saying that today I have
like this zero downtown, I'm like, oh my god, I
learned that I need more downtime and that's not going
to happen until ten thirty at nine.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's currently eight fifteen in the morning.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And was there anybody that you met in jungle who
was very different to what you expected?
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Candice Wuna?
Speaker 2 (06:34):
How was she different?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Candace Wuner is portrayed in the Australian media as this
hard exterior, this woman. She's an iron woman live, She's
super strong, she is nurturing, she loves her kids so much.
She only cares about her family. I was able to
(06:56):
have full conversations with her where she was really motherly
towards me and I really clicked with her From day
three or four where I went, oh my god, I
really really love you. I don't think this aired, but
there was a moment where cooked together and she was
talking about her husband and her kids and how hard
it was to be pregnant and flying to London at
(07:19):
the time because the word cup was on and she
was giving birth and she wasn't really allowed to see
her husband during it because they have no partner band.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
And I went to the talking cried for half an hour.
Speaker 5 (07:32):
They didn't, but I was just like this woman, Like
she just looks so strong, but there's all of these
things that she's gone through that people don't even know
about because all they see is like this hard exterior.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It must be really fascinating to get to know the
human being behind the image, because all of those people
in the jungle you know to some extent. And what
I've always found fascinating is that sometimes it's the people
you think you'll get along with that you don't necessarily,
(08:04):
and the people that you think you'll have nothing in
common with that you weirdly bond with.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
It's so odd and Pete as well, like Pete's like
an AFL legend. Yeah, Like and I was like Okay,
well we're going to talk about like there's a generational
gap here, and also you're like AFL and like I
know nothing. Yeah, but again it was a family connection
where we spoke about like his family, his kids, his partner.
And it's those moments that I went, no one cares
(08:29):
about the Korea cares, No one cares about what you
do for a living. It all comes down to everyone
is here for their family. Everyone just wants to live
for their family and their loved ones.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
And it's also a good reminder that you're right, it's
not what anybody cares about or talks about in actual life.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
It's weird that I think, because we're often so obsessed
with just having a really shiny version of ourselves that
the world sees when you connect with another human being,
you're never talking about the superficial stuff. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
It's also I find that it's this like label that
everyone gets given. You get smashed with a label and
everyone goes, that is you, that is who you are.
But there's also like forty five million layers behind that
that no one talks about because it's too hard to
because it's like, well, no, if you're not the aofl legend.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Who are you?
Speaker 2 (09:14):
Yeah, it's a lot more complicated to get your head around.
We often ask on this show about a time the
world told you you'd be happy and you weren't, And
one of those times for you is actually right now.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yes, I am very happy. Yes I've got a lot
of things going on in my life. But when I
was in the jungle, when I was talking to everyone,
I was like, I really want kids, and I've always
really want kids, but I think it's kind of right
now that I'm thinking I need to start that process now, Like,
(09:55):
if I really do want kids, I need to start
that process now. And the idea that scares me and
makes me really upset is that I possibly might not
have them.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
You're so right the thing about kids, because I have
just had a little question and it's a weirdly intentional decision.
It's for some reason. I think when you're growing up
you think it will just happen, But even woman heterosexual relationship,
it's really intentional. There's a moment where you have to
be like, oh, we have to decide that we want
(10:27):
to do this thing that we know is going to
change our lives. And for you, obviously it's thinking about
how we go about that. Am I going to do
that with my current partner? And so are you feeling
a sense of urgency?
Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, I am feeling a sense of urgency.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
I'm at an age where, look, I probably still have
five or six years before it becomes very, very urgent.
But it's that idea of possibly ever having them that
is really scaring me right now. I always grew up
picturing myself with the farm, with the chickens and with
the kids, and you're completely right in your mind as
(11:06):
a child, you think it's just going to happen. And
I'm like, I don't know how that it's going to
happen right now, And I don't even know who that's
going to happen with. If I want to do it
with someone else, or if I do this alone, how
do I make that work?
Speaker 1 (11:19):
It is a thirty We cannot cry in the morning.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
When I was thinking about that, I was like, it's
the one thing that constantly is now in the back
of my mind, and it's like, when are you going
to do this?
Speaker 1 (11:31):
You don't have time to write your next book.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
The kids are a massive one, Like you have to
sit down and actually really think about this, so right
now is the moment that I should be happy. But
there's this little thing in the back that is just
constantly there.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
There's so much honesty to that, and it's such a
reminder that from the outside it can look like someone
has everything, but there can be something really quiet that
they secretly wish that they had.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
A lot of my friends have just had children. Sarah Holloway.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she just had a baby.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
Yes, she had a baby an hour before I went
into the jungle. No after I went into the jungle,
and she was looking after my social she's my best friend.
Yeah yeah, and she's like calmed, you handed your phone over,
And then the.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Baby came and I just didn't know what to do.
I was like, oh my god, I missed the birthy
literally like an hour.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
But like I see kids now, and I see babies
and they just make me smile y. Yeah, Like I
just get really really happy with seeing Europe this potato
that does nothing all day.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
They're so funny. It's really hard to explain it. My
partner and I have said it reminds us of the
Matrix and like the Red pill and the Blue pill,
and once you have a kid. It's a bit like
you've chosen to take whichever the pill is that shows
you reality. Yeah, and you can't explain it to anybody else.
It's just a feeling, yeah, and like a knowing that
(13:02):
there's this amazing sense of meaning and that's it's not
for everyone. And actually having a child has made me realize, Yeah,
I don't think everyone should be a parent. It's really hard,
but I understand that longing that.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
I want to make them dinners that they won't want
to eat.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
I want them to I want to take them places
and they're just going to shut tantrums and just really
test me, like I want. I get jealous to see
all of the things that my friends have to go through,
which look painful, but to me, I'm.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Like, I want that. After the break, Khan opens up
about his childhood, including his mom's unexpected reaction when he
came out to her. He also talks about losing his
dad and the secret his dad kept from their family.
(13:56):
You were born in an Indonesian refugee camp, and you
spent the first two years of your life there. Tell
me what you know about what your parents' lives looked
like at that time.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
So mom and Dad went to Indonesia. That's where the
refugee camp was via boat. I think they got caught
by authorities in Malaysian waters and were then escorted to Indonesia.
But I think the whole idea behind leaving Vietnam was
not to make it to Australia or make it anywhere,
but it was just to be caught outside of Vietnamese
(14:30):
waters so that then you can get processed. So they
ended up in Indonesia in a place called Going, which
I recently researched because I think I'm trying to organize
to get my mum back there.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
It's an island that had mostly Vino Meis refugees that
were being processed for Germany, the US, Canada, Australia, and
there were thousands and thousands there at the same time.
I don't think it's the same way that people think
of refugee camps now. It's not so much prison line.
It's an island with like houses and uts and things
(15:02):
like that. Everyone kind of had like jobs within the community.
So Mum was a seamstress. Dad chopped wood, but also
so collected snakes because there were snakes all over the
Island and apparently he went and he would wrangle them
and that was part of what he did for a living.
But yeah, life in the refugee acount was a very
different where you kind of did make a living.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
You were like exchanging skills and things like that.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
There's photos that I've seen of them with like friends
they traveled with and stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
That were Yeah, but they were there for four years.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Then basically it's a system where once you get processed,
you go to a country. That system is really once
you have enough money to get processed, you go to
a country where it's like you have like you got
to pay for the paperwork, you got to pay for
certain things, but it's really the money that gets you somewhere.
So it did require a lot of our extended family
chipping in to get them processed to come to Australia.
(15:56):
So they came to Australia when I was two. We
were living with an auntie who was not really my auntie.
We just shared the same last name, which is how
it amuse people work if you've got the same last
name your family. We moved to Southeast suburbs of Melbourne.
Dad opened his first butcher shop, put all his money
in to do that. Mum was working still as the
(16:17):
seamstress at night doing samples and stuff, but during the
day would help at.
Speaker 1 (16:21):
The butcher shop.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
They would work, They were workhorses. We didn't spend a
lot of time together, which is not their fault. They
worked and the time that I would spend with Mum
and Dad would be after hours in the kitchen where
they would do brief about their day and I remember
sitting on the kitchen counter like that's just what I did.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And as you started to grow up in Australia, do
you remember that as being a happy childhood.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
I do.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
I think it's because I grew up in Swing Vale,
which is a very Vitnamese area, Like everyone was pretty
much Vitamise, where I went to a primary school and
it wasn't until like I went to high school that
I even knew that I was potentially a little bit different.
In high school, there were little things like it's a
name that like we shorten as Australians, but I didn't
even think about it. It was like probably like Nathaniel
(17:12):
and Nathan or something like that. It's something stupid where
a longer name is short into a tiny name, and
I remember reading books and that never made sense to me.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So it was like Daniel and Dan, I was like
I never understood that.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Or like William and Billy. Yeah, never understood It's like
what but yeah, it's only through that being in your
family or whatever that actually starts to make sure.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, and my parents don't speak English.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Mum speaks English Ish now, so I didn't grow up
with all like these nuances of like language and things
that would make sense to me. And there was even
other little things that made me feel different where I remember,
in just seven, we were playing cricket or we were
being taught how to play cricket, and I just didn't
know if once I hit the wall, I had to
(17:56):
run or not, and just like and it's like little
things like that where no one explains that to.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
You, but the others will have just had it on
the background on the TV for their whole childhood. Yeah,
and so it goes without saying to them, Yeah, what
you do? I mean, I actually don't know if i'd
run on, but yeah, I can imagine there's a little
boy You're like, hold on.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
A second, yeah, And I have no idea, And then
like I feel embarrassed to usk like we would be
like playing football and I'm like, okay, cool, so you
kick the ball, you handle the ball, you can't throw
the ball. Why can't you throw the ball? Like, I
just don't understand any of these rules. And these are
the little things that I feel like immigrants go through
that no one ever even talks about. Like it's these
(18:39):
little tiny things that makes me feel like an idiot.
And it's things that I still remember from my childhood
that isn't really that big of a deal, but at
that moment for me, it is a big deal because
I feel super dumb.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
Yeah, and as you're growing up, you're getting this sense
that there's something different and then you start to come
to terms with this textuality. So what age were you
when you start to think about that?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
There were multiple times. The first time.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Was year eight, Yeah, year eight where I went to
a Hailarbry, a parallel education where boys go to boys classes,
girls go to girls classes. We spend recess and lunches together.
So I felt really comfortable at that school. Came out
all good friends, no problems. Changed schools. Went to Melbourne High.
(19:37):
It's a very Vinamese family thing where they want you
to go to Melbourne High School because it's a selective school.
It costs nothing, and it's like they take like the
top two percent of every other high school got in.
Mom and dad are so happy with me. I fucking
hated it. I remember I went to Melbourne High. I
was commuting. It would take me from the moment of
(19:57):
waking up to get to school about an hour and
fifteen minutes and it was every day walking up this
hill going home an hour of fifteen minutes sitting on
the train. Everyone was really really academic.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
But it's pretty incredible to come from not speaking English
at home to then getting into a really competitive selective school.
Like that's some natural intelligence, but that's also bloody hard work.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Okay, so I'm going to let you in on a
little secret. My mum and dad they know exactly how
to work me. Mum still knows how to work me.
And basically it was like, Okay, if you get into
this school, you can go to Vietnam every year, I
don't know, holiday during school holidays. And I was like,
oh yeah, cool, done. So it was like always little
rewards for me.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Side note, where in Vietnam where you from originally?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
So It is the southern tip of Vietnam, a town
called Gamau Fishing Village, really small. Grammar and granddads still
live there. I've still got some uncles and aunties there.
I do visit from time to time. It is really
beautiful on the Mekong Delta, about eight hours drive south
of Hochimun City.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Oh gorgeous.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
I love Vitnam.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Then Mum and dad said, do you know what if
you want to go back to Haylarbury, it's one way
you can do it, and you just have to make
the schooling equal, so like the cost has to.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
Be the same. And I was like, how the hell
am I going to do that?
Speaker 3 (21:19):
So I started applying for different scholarships at Halearbury and
I got a general Excellence and then that wasn't enough,
so I sat academic exam and that got me the
rest of it, and so my schooling became free. Yeah,
and so Mum and Dad allowed me to come back
to Halebury and it was the best thing ever because
(21:40):
I feel so at home at that school. I am
obsessed with the school, I'm obsessed with the alumni. I
will send my kids there in a heartbeat. I felt
totally supported for being gay for everything, Like they just
were really nurtury.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
When you do start thinking about your sexuality, do you
think about having to share it publicly or are you
trying to work it out privately.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
So I came out when in your eight, went back
in the closet when I went to almaheen ' nine.
Came back out at the end of nine because I
went back to Hillary. But it wasn't really something that
I had to share with the public. It was just
like something that I was exploring with my friends at
school to be like, oh, yeah, I'm interested in these guys,
blah blah blah blah blah whatever. It never became a
(22:25):
big thing until it came to the point where I
had to speak to like my mom about it. Sorry,
there's a lot going on in this whole period of
my life. My father passed away when I was sixteen
and I was towards the end of year ten, and
that really pivoted my entire life where I no longer
wanted to be a plastic surgeon. I wanted to dive
(22:47):
headfirst into fashion. At the same time Mom and I
were not getting along. I went back to school after
dad died the day after and just did the normal thing,
didn't really give it too much thought, life went on
as normal.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
I didn't deal with it.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
I basically just didn't deal with dad dying, and so
I took it out on mom, and I took out
our mom for a couple of years. When I was eighteen,
towards the end of year twelve, I remember I was
sitting in the car with her and she was like,
I started hanging out with someone. I was like, I
don't want to talk about it. She's like, oh, what
would you think about me daddy? I was like, I
don't want to talk about it, and that kent went
on for about four or five I don't want to
(23:24):
talk about it until I decided to open the door
of the car and roll out.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Oh my gosh, I am horrific. Like I was a
horrific teenager.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I mean, you were going through a lot at the
same time, but that is a scary thing to do. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
I literally was like, I would rather roll out of
this movie car than continue to have this conversation with you. Anyway,
totally regretted that because I had to walk home for
three kilometers. So I'm walking home and but that really
just changed our relationship where Mum didn't feel comfortable speaking
to me anymore. I just didn't want to talk to
her anymore. I hadn't come out of that point to
(24:01):
my family, and I ran away, not from home, but.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Like I ran away in the senses. I moved to
London to study fashion.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Just before I decided that I'm going going to run
to London and like run away from my mother, I
thought that I would weaponize my sexuality.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Oh wow, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:18):
Which is like insane and like not the normal coming
out story where I just literally sat in front of her.
I'm like, okay, I want another fight, and I reckon
that if I come out now, there will be a fight.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I've never heard someone say that, but that is such
a authentically teenage thing to do.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah, And like I did struggle with ever talking about
this because it makes me fucking sound like the worst
person ever. That I literally sat there and was like,
I'm going to weaponize coming out. So I sat down
and I said I wasn't even like very calm about it.
I was like, hey, yes, I have something to tell you.
I'm gay, like guys, And I just like watched her
for a bit and she was.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
Like, how do you feel about going to vi Nam?
And I was like, what.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
A separate question?
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (25:02):
In my mind, I was like, okay, so she's going
to send me to like some kind of camp where
they rehabilitate me into not being gay. Instead, my mom
goes the community is very big in Vietnam. You can
probably make a really good career there. You might become
quite famous.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
And I'm like, excuse.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Me, It's like you were meant to be angry.
Speaker 3 (25:22):
Yeah, you were meant to be angry. You were meant
to be like sad. You were meant to do something
that would cause me to fight you. Instead, I'm laughing.
I'm like, I'm sorry. So your answer to me being
a homosexual is that you would like me to go
to Vietnam and try and become famous. I love it,
and I literally I love her like I love like.
(25:43):
My mom and I are really close now. But I've
like because after that, I was like, Okay, well, I
can't really do anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
My mom loves me, damn it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Wow, my coming out story wasn't a sad one. No,
She's always been really supportive. But I flew to London
to do my UNI there at Saint Martin's and it
was hell for me.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I couldn't afford to do anything.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
I was making like five pound an hour working like
minimum els because you can't even work for time there
as a student, So I couldn't pay for rent, I
couldn't pay for food, and I couldn't pay to do anything,
and I couldn't pay for my schooling. I think Mum
was helping with the schooling at the time, but still
it was not enough money to do anything. So I
decided that I was going to come back and try
and do fashion school here. But to come back, I
was like, hey, Mom, I don't think I can live
(26:26):
with you. I think for our relationship to now work,
I have to live outside of this house. And I
pretty much apologized to her and I said, you know,
the last three years, I've been pretty braddy. I was
just not a nice person. I was not a nice kid,
Like obviously there's the whole dad thing, but I feel
really guilty about it a lot, and I've spoken to
(26:48):
her about it a lot, and she was like, you're
like seventeen, like it's expected for you to just be hard.
But yeah, became really close after that. When I apologized
and I was like, I'm like, I'm really sorry. You're
allowed to see whoever you want. Like you are still young.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
When you're looking at a parent, I can see how
you think, no, no, your only job is to be
my mom.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Yeah, And so I was just like, that was a
ridiculous reaction of me to have about you dating.
Speaker 1 (27:14):
And since then.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
We've been really, really good. I try to see my mom.
Over the past ten years, I try to see her
every week. Over the past three years, it has become
every second week because it's been a little bit busier,
but I speak to her pretty much two three times
a week.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
I love how you tried to be rejected by your mother.
She's like, I accept you. So you were in year
ten when your dad passed away. Yes, he was sick. Yeah,
And is it true that he didn't tell dad.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
My father had started the butcher shop.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
My father had hap bee from Vietnam, just like from
being like in poverty. He had hep B, which then
changed to liver cancer. Yeah, progress it became liver cancer.
He found out about a year and a half before
we found out. He found out about it, but he
thought that there is no time to deal with this.
(28:11):
I have a year and a half, two years, three
years to build a business strong enough so that my
family will be fine.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Oh there's nothing more self like heartbreaking.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
It's so ridiculous, Like I don't think I could do
something like that, but yeah, I remember when I was sixteen, seventeen,
eighteen and he had passed away. I think the reason
why I wasn't dealing with it was I was kind
of pissed off as well that my father literally kept
like this massive secret from the entire family. And yes,
it's a very self list thing to do, but I
(28:46):
thought it was also a very selfish thing to do,
especially because I'm like, my sister is nine, and instead
of trying to take care of your health, you may
leave a nine year old without a father.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah yeah, yeah, and not sharing it meant there was
less time for everyone to just be aware of it
and spend as a family. I know, yeah, and know
that this was potentially the end.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Yeah, But the crazy thing is if dad didn't do that,
Mum wouldn't have the life that she currently has. And
so I'm like, Okay, that's horrific and like a horrible,
like just a shit thing to do. But at the
same time, I kind of see why you did it,
because this is exactly what he wanted.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Yeah, And what was it like to actually lose him?
Were you in the room?
Speaker 6 (29:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
I was in the room.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Were in the My mom, once she had found out,
decided that she would do everything, and when I say everything,
I mean everything to try and fix it, like that
was her thing where it was like modern medicine wasn't working,
Western medicine wasn't working. We're gonna see witch doctors. Dad
was so against it. He was like, I'm weak, blah
(30:07):
blah blah. I don't want to die and be dumb,
like I don't want to passway. And so the night
before we were supposed to fly to Vietnam, we were
all sitting like in the mountain room like packing, dealing
with that, like our passports. That was the night the
dad passed away. Wow, And it was just him going,
I'm not going at it.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
M yeah, I'm not leaving, like I'm not doing this.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
It happened also fast, but also so slow that I
was just like I didn't even know that he was
actually dying.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Like it was like I think he went into a
hahjack from it.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
And then we called the ambulance they came blah blah blah,
but he was gone. But I didn't even really register
to me that my dad wasn't there anymore. That it
was like I'm like, no, no, Like you watch this
on TV. The ambulance comes, they take them away and.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Then they end up in hospital. Yeah. Yeah, and that
was just it. But literally that was the last moment.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Wow, looking back at your dad's life, do you think
your dad was happy?
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Dad was definitely happy.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Mom and Dad have a relationship that I really looked
up to, not part where he didn't tell her that
was dying and not the heart, the part where they
did everything in their power to be together. Like they
left Vietnam together even though my grandma and my grandma's
on both sides were totally against it. They didn't want
(31:27):
my parents to be here together. They came to Australia.
They build a family together, they build business together. They
were so madly in love and they just wanted this family.
And that's something that I didn't really think until just
about now.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
When you asked me that, I was like, ah, so
that's where that comes from.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Yea, yeah, because even now, like Mom dates like she's
having boyfriends and things before. But when I asked her,
does it get more like serious in this that you
think of getting me married? Because she goes, no, I
had the love of my life. It's gone now like
this is just more of a companion thing.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Up next, we chat about the impact that being cheated
on had on Calm self esteem, the experience of watching
yourself on television and hating how you look, and why
can't thinks that even successful people don't always find more
happiness when they get what they want. Calm, there's another
(32:28):
time in your life when the world told you you'd
be happy and you weren't. When was that?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
A little bit of a background on this when you
come off Master Chef right, and there are things that
you want as a contestant. You want restaurants, or you
want cookbooks, or you want TV shows, or you just
want to like write for a publication, whatever it is.
There are things that they're a goalposts for you. I
had gotten the cookbook, I'd gotten the restaurant, I'd gotten
(32:58):
the TV show, I was writing for publications, and then
I was onto my next television show, Karlon's Wild Food,
a show that was my dream show, is my dream show,
and I thought, tick tick tick tick tick, We've ticked
off like the four major things that you want to
do as a Master Chef contestant, and.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
A lot of people get none of them. It's a
certain type of person who has stood out and who
Australia has fallen in love with that gets those opportunities.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You're like, who, thank you. Yeah. So I was on
Conan's Wild Food.
Speaker 3 (33:30):
I was watching the pilot and I was going through
a breakup at the time, and I remember being like,
oh my god, this is amazing. I've got my first
like actual travel TV show, and this is amazing. And
all I could remember is sitting there going why do
I look so overweight? What is going on with my skin?
(33:52):
What is going on with my hair? Why I'm a
mannerism is like that is this why I'm single? Like
I was going through the breakup and watching myself at
the time the same time, which was horrible, and like
I just was not happy with how I looked and
I had never really cared that. Yeah, I care about
my clothes. I came about my hair and stuff like that.
(34:12):
But I'm always like I'm fit, Like I go to
the gym. Yes, I'm a chef and I eat a lot,
but I go to the gym. But this was the
first time where I saw myself on camera and I went,
this is forever and this is why I'm single.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Wow, because I reckon a lot of people get those
sort of opportunities, whether it's like a photo shoot or
you're doing an ad or something like that, and it
looks so flash and so exciting, and no one prepares
you for the fact that you might look at it
and think, my hell, look shit, and everybody's looking at it,
and it's this visceral feeling of I feel yuck, and
(34:49):
I feel like that's going to be there forever ever,
and I feel like I don't look my best and
that makes me feel like shit.
Speaker 3 (34:57):
It's like I know that, like it's a very superficial
thing to feel, but at the time, I remember just going,
this is the reason I currently don't have love in
my life.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
And to weave those two things together, yeah, is so
I'm human but unhealthy and so arbitrary. So you were
feeling rejected.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
I was feeling rejected.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
I was thinking like, maybe I'm just like super annoying,
or my laugh is blah blah blah. I know that
we don't fatciate, but I'm like, in my mind, maybe I'm.
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Just fat You start with the self talk, yeah, and that.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Was what I was feeling.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
And then I was watching like these little edits of
my own TV show, and that was running through my mind.
I'm like, is that conversation I'm having with that person annoying?
Like will the viewer look at that and go, oh god,
he's just hit his on again? Or like it was
just ridiculous that it was a TV show that was
so proud to have as my own, but yet there
(35:52):
was this constant stream of negativeativity that just made me
really upset.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, even though if you had looked at it, you know,
years in the past, if you had told yourself, I'm
mean to have my own TV show, you would have
thought I am the happiest I've ever been.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
So you've also talked about having been cheated on and
how that kind of changed your idea of relationships. What
was that experience?
Speaker 3 (36:15):
Like, Okay, so the cheating he is a really funny one.
Being cheated on it it's not funny. But I was
seeing this guy and everything was fine. We were no monogamous,
We had other partners whatever. We were in bed one
night and he goes, have you been sleeping with anyone else?
I was like, no, not really for the last month
or so.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
I was like have you guys? No, not really, and
then I was like okay. He goes, do you want
to just not? And I'm like, yeah, I would like that.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
Fast forward a month find out that he slept with
someone that night, Like, I'm like, why did we have
this conversation?
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Why did you It's like he wanted it to be
cheated because it's like he put the rule in so
he could break.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
Yeahs odd, But it's so weird because it was like
we were fine, like we were sleeping with other people.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, we hadn't been actively doing it, but like that
was allowed. And also like I was totally fine with
you sleeping with someone else. It was honest. It was
just so insane to me. Anyway.
Speaker 3 (37:10):
From that moment, I kind of changed the way I
thought about relationships and I'm like, so I don't care
about the sex thing, Like I don't care if my
partner sleeps with someone else. What I cared about in
that moment was the lie of it all. So I
am currently hanging out seeing someone there is a special
(37:30):
man in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
He wrote you a letter.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
Yeah, I'm just to put that out. He's not my boyfriend,
but like in the Jungle, they put boyfriend. And I
was mortified when I came out because I read it
and I went, oh, my gosh, we've been labeled. We'd
have literally just gone away together and everything's fine. We
are in a situation.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
GYP non monogamous.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
And the reason behind that is I think personally it's
not for everyone, but I think that the act of
cheating or sleeping with someone isn't the thing that is
the most hurtful part. The most hurtful part is the
betrayal is the lie. And if you can have an
open conversation with your partner about what your needs are.
We've always been very open what your needs are, whether
(38:14):
it be in the bedroom or like communication, whatever it is,
and you can pick out the things that your partner
may not be able to provide you, then you're taking
away the lie and you're taking away the betrayal. So
with me, I'm like, well, it doesn't make sense for
us to be traveling, not living in the same state
(38:34):
and be completely monogamous. Knowing that we'll go weeks on
end without seeing each other, like see wherever you want.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Do you generally in relationships? Do you not believe in monogamy?
Speaker 3 (38:49):
I always called myself monogamish, being that like, if my
partner needed me to be monogamous, then it's something that
we would speak about and I would probably be totally
okay with it and we'll do it. But we've had
a lot of conversations where we're both monogamish, where it's
if we found ourselves living in the same city, living
(39:09):
in the same home, totally yeah, like that makes sense,
Like we want a family, we want kids, Like that
makes total sense to us. But saying that it's monogamish
because if we travel, you're overseas, you're somewhere else and
this is horrible, but people who travel for work are
(39:31):
very very likely to cheat.
Speaker 2 (39:34):
That's very true, very true.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
It's like like I obviously don't have any status behind that,
so like, don't come.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
Out, no, it just from my own life, I know
that that's what happens. And it's also harder to trust
somebody because you're just not with them every night. You
can't see what they're doing.
Speaker 1 (39:48):
Yeah, and like I travel a lot.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
The person I'm hanging out with, we're gonna call him Rhino.
That's because that's what I called him all through the jungle.
So Rhino travels a lot. I travel a lot.
Speaker 2 (39:58):
And do you think a relationship now is something you
factor into your idea of a happy life?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Oh, I was like, whoa, Yeah, this actually happened in
the jungle where I was like, I really miss this person.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I really want to be with this person.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
I also really want now to not care as much
about my career, not in the sense that I still
don't want to be working a lot, but I think
now there's time to kind of give that other side
of my life a little bit of love. I am
thirty now, so I'm starting to think about what that
(40:37):
kind of looks like, what my future looks like, what
my family life looks like.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
And yeah, so I would like to meet a person
and have kids and have a farm.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
And when you think about how you define happiness, you're
so young now, But if you think about being an
old man and looking back and thinking I had a
happy life, what do you think that looked like.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
In the jungle, A few people figured it out. They're like,
you really just want to cook. I honestly just want
to cook, Like I want to watch people eat and
enjoy my food, or cook for themselves and tell me
that my kids really like this dish.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
Like that is happiness.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
That is actually, if we got rid of everything else
and we just had people cooking my food and enjoying it,
that is happiness.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
And why do you think that is? What is it
about that act and about food? Is it mindfulness? Is
it actually being in the moment and taking time to
learn about the things.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
As I was growing up, I said that I spent
a lot of time in the kitchen with my mom
and my dad. We cooked a lot together, and I
remember it being a time where I was really really
happy because I was spending time with my parents. And
I think that's where my love of food comes from.
And I think somewhere in that whole idea, I reckon
that if other people are cooking, they're probably going to
be cooking with their friends or their family or their children,
(42:09):
and the probably going to have these experiences that will
be lifelong, core memories of happiness for them. I always
feel this sense of like pride when I've cooked for
people and they're sitting there and they've enjoyed something that
I've done. So a lot of the dishes that you'll
find now that I'm pushing out, all the dishes I'm
filming are very simple, very quick and no fuss, even
(42:33):
like my my new series which is Table for One,
where I just like teach people how to cook for
themselves and then have it enough just.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
For one exactly, So a challenge that people have when
you're living on your own. Anything, Oh, I won't cook
because they'll just be so much waste. Yeah, it's such
a good idea.
Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yeah, well, I currently live alone, so I'm like, yes,
I have this, and then I packed the other leftover
into a lunch box and I have it for lunch.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
I don't really give it to my concierge, but I
have it for lunch.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
So I wanted to ask finally about what you think
about the relationship between success and happiness from a humble
background in terms of a refugee camp, coming to Australia,
your family, starting a life again, and now you have
(43:21):
the kind of success I'm sure you and your family
could not have even imagined back then. Do you think
that over that period your happiness has increased or do
you think that as we become more successful and we
get more of what we want, our expectations and desires
(43:43):
just change and we stay about the same in terms
about how we feel.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
We definitely say the same.
Speaker 3 (43:48):
We definitely say the same because I feel like the
happiest signs that I remember are my childhood, with my family,
with my sister.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I'm sitting on the counter with my mom cooking.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
But do you think when you look at your life
and you think about the things that you've really wanted
and then getting them, Yeah, have you noticed that there's
complexity there?
Speaker 3 (44:10):
I have mentioned her like twenty four times for Sarah
and I have these very in depth conversations where we've
gone walks and we just talk about our entire life.
We complain about things that we're not supposed to complain about,
but we can to each other. Yeah, And one of
the complaints are that it's kind of ridiculous that we've
gone to a stage in our life where we have goals.
We have these goals that are huge goals that we
(44:31):
might have told each other two years, three years before,
and then we achieve those goals. We achieve those goals
and we'll go yay for about five seconds, and then
we go what's next, and we move on, and it's like,
wait a minute, why wasn't I super excited that I
am the Australian ambassador for AMEX and I have been
(44:52):
for two years. Like that's crazy. Like I have my
own TV show, crazy. I have one cookbook but a
deal to do three more insane. I have the opportunity
to do another TV show. I've been given a timeslot.
All I have to do is make the co for it.
And yet I don't celebrate any of these things. I
(45:13):
just go, Okay, cool, what's next.
Speaker 4 (45:15):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
It's just a treadmill of just yep, yep, yep, yep, yep,
and then your baseline changes of what it feels like
you need in order to feel satisfied.
Speaker 3 (45:23):
This is why I think what I really want is
that family, that life, because I'm like, right now, I
am only just kicking these goals because I am searching
for something, like I can't get what I really want,
so instead I'm like, yeah, I don't need anything.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
I'm just going to become like a multi millionaire and travel.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
The world and just like eat food and like wear
nice clothes and be tanned all the time.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
But if you got all those things, would you feel empty?
Would there be something missing?
Speaker 3 (45:53):
I reckon you would, yeah, because I think that, Like,
I just want to cook for my family every single meal,
every breakfast, every lunch and every dinner, and be sad
when my kids tell me that they don't want something
that would make them for lunch.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
That's all about Yeah, Khan, You're loved by the Australian public.
You've built a career I'm sure you could have only
dreamed of when you're a kid, and it feels like
you truly get to do what you love and your
passion is palpable. But are you happy?
Speaker 3 (46:27):
I am happy to an extent Like this whole time
I've spoken, you can tell that I'm a pretty happy person.
I'm very happy. I'm very fortunate. I'm very thankful for
everything I have. The only thing that's missing for me
are the kids. Yeah, I think, But I don't think
I'm at that stage of my life yet where that
(46:47):
is going to rip my soul apart right now. It's
really I need to start thinking about it. I need
to start working out whether I be adopting, whether it
would be surrogacy, or whatever way that I want to
have children. I think this is now when I really
need to start think about it and actually dedicate some
time to sit down and map it out, because it's
(47:10):
not just going to happen, especially for a homosexual man.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
It's not just going to happen. I'm not going to
just feel pregnant. You never know.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
This was such an enlightening conversation because you can see
in Karn a human experience that's universal. The stuff he
struggles with is both the big stuff and the little stuff.
It's being a kid and not feeling like you fit
in because you don't have a cultural context that matches
your peers, because you weren't born in a hospital in
(47:46):
the next suburb, but in a refugee camp. And it's
also second guessing everything about yourself because you were cheated on.
And it's also deciding you want to have kids and
not knowing how you're going to make that happen. He
also shows how the things we think are going to
go wrong and are going to be hard and upsetting
(48:07):
sometimes surprise us. For him, it was thinking that his
mum was going to react badly to him opening up
about his sexuality and then discovering that he was wrong
about that, and also going into the jungle and meeting
people who he was wrong about, people he had preconceived
judgments about, and how connecting with those people is an
(48:29):
enormous source of happiness. Join me next week for a
chat with radio host, podcaster, media personality and writer Laura Burrn.
We talk about how she dealt with scrutiny about her
appearance during a time when she should have felt confident
and in love, and how giving birth to her first
baby was nothing like what she expected.
Speaker 6 (48:53):
And Matt was in the kitchen with Marley, and I
was sitting on the side of the bed and you know,
he like massive pads and you want a pillow, booms
her everything. You're just like, haven't slept in two days.
The emotions really hit you. And she was in the
little bassinet next to the bed, and I remember sitting
there looking at her and I was like, we have
ruined our lives.
Speaker 2 (49:10):
On last week's episode, I spoke with media personality, youth worker, podcaster,
and author Brook Blurton about processing trauma, balancing the pursuit
of individual happiness with the needs and struggles of your community,
and the moment you found love on national television and
received news of a personal tragedy at the same time.
(49:31):
There's a link in the show notes to listen to
that episode. If you enjoyed the podcast, please leave us
a review. It really helps people to find us. And
if you'd like to suggest someone for the podcast, we
love suggestions, so you can email us here at podcast
at mummeya dot com dot au, or find me on
(49:52):
Instagram and send me a message at Claire dot Stevens.
This episode was produced by Tarlie Blackman, with audio production
by Scott Stronik. See you next week.
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