August 15, 2025 • 37 mins
Have you ever wondered why friendship breakups feel so brutal? Like, worse than a romantic break-up?
In this episode of But Are You Happy, clinical psychologist Dr. Anastasia Hronis tells us how to end a friendship without ghosting someone and leaving them wondering what just happened.
You'll also learn:
- How you know it's time to end a friendship
- When you should reconsider a breakup and set a boundary instead
- What is ghosting and is it all that bad?
- How to have a break up conversation that's respectful
Watch the podcast on YouTube here.
If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Both services are available 24/7 for free, confidential mental health support.
Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
Want to win a $10 e-gift card AND a Mamamia subscription FREE for 1 month? Fill out this short survey. T&Cs apply.
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Our studio is styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Support the show: https://www.mamamia.com.au/mplus/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
On Hello, bestie, there are you. Don't ghost me on Snapchat.
I can see that you are on Snapchat. I can
see you on the map.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
For Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to
But Are You Happy? The show for people who say
no worries far clearly deeply worried.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
And I'm doctor Anastaga Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Have you ever wondered why friendship
breakups feel so brutal?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, I've definitely had my fair share of friendship breakups
and breakdowns? Why does it feel worse than breaking up
with a romantic partner?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
That's what we're going to talk about today. How to
end a friendship without ghosting someone and leaving them wondering
what just happened?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Get into it, okay, Anathasia. I want to start off
with the big scary question that so many of us
are thinking but are too scared to actually talk about
out loud. How do we know when it's time to
end a friendship? Can you give us some of the
signs to look out for.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, friendship is a big one that I think doesn't
get talked about enough. So I'm so glad we're having
this conversation. So, yeah, let's talk about signs of unhealthy friendships. Right,
when we think about a friendship, we want it to
be happy, fun, respectful, emotional. We want to feel like
we have a strong sense of connection with someone. So
I guess when we're looking for signs of an unhealthy friendship,
(01:51):
we might be looking at signs of, you know, someone
who's not kind of reciprocating the friendship. Right, Friendship's got
to be two ways, not just a one way straight
so we need that reciprocity. We need to feel like
we can trust that person. If our friend is not
someone we feel like we can trust, then are they
really our friend. We don't want to have any ox
ssessive signs of jealousy any one person trying to control
(02:14):
the dynamic. It's got to really be kind of fair
and respectful to both people.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
And I can imagine with these signs as well, like,
would you be looking at for these signs consistently? Because
I understand, you know, at the end of the day.
We're all human and sometimes we're going through a bad day.
We can project our stuff onto someone else, Like, can
you tell me a little bit more about that? Is
it a consistent thing that we're looking out for.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think you've hit the nail on the head there
with the idea of patterns, right, Like, it's never going
to be one hundred percents equal all of the time,
Right There's going to be times where one person has
less capacity than the other. One friend steps up and
fills the space while the other person is maybe like
a little bit down or unable to kind of contribute
as much. That's fine as long as we don't find
(02:57):
ourselves in a pattern where one person is always unavailable
or always wants things to be exactly on their terms,
or we always have to go to the sushi place
that the friend wants to go to instead of it
kind of being a fair share of who get to
pick where we go for dinner.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah. And it's really interesting because as you're unpacking some
of these signs, something else that I think about could
be another potential sign would be a misalignment in values, right, Like,
I know, for me, I've had to step away from
friendships where I've been deeply hurt and that friend knew
the impact that they had on me, but didn't make
(03:32):
the effort to repair. And that was a misalignment in
values for me because love and respect's really important, but
in that particular situation, they weren't demonstrating that and that
was really hard. But I did have to question the friendship.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, that's such a good point, the values misalignment, right,
And I think values is a big one. We've talked
about values before on the podcast. But you know, we
can have different values where like I value adventure and
New value creativity, so we might have kind of different
interest in hobbies, right, But when it comes down to
those really core values around respect and honesty and forgiveness
(04:11):
and repair, you know, if we differ on some of
those really core values with our friends, then we might
find it hard to maintain a friendship with them. As
you've said, so, what are some of.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The common red flags to look out for when it
comes to an unhealthy relationship?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So I would say signs of an unhealthy friendship are
things like when someone's disrespecting your boundaries and doing so constantly.
Maybe they're not willing to sort of respect, your emotional
limits or limits on your time and your availability. Maybe
if someone's constantly negative, right, really being negative and pulling
the friendship down, a lot of criticisms. They're very critical
(04:47):
of you and harsh towards you. They don't give the
support when you feel like you need it. There's a
lot of conflict in the friendship, maybe some betrayal, maybe gossip, jealousy, dishonesty,
and then of course the imbalance of effort. If you
feel like you're the person who is always putting in
the effort and it's not a two way street, that's
probably a sign that there's something unhealthy going on in
(05:09):
the friendship.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Why do ending a friendship feel just as hard as
a romantic breakup?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Often we've had these friends through the ups and downs
of our lives. Right, We've gone through romantic breakups and
they've been the person there who shoulder we cry on.
Or we've gone through illness or death of a parent,
or a change in career or trying to figure out
our identity. You know, these different kind of life stages
we go through. Those friends are there with us and
(05:36):
they've seen the changes in who we are, how we
show up in the world, our personality, our interests, our choices.
They've been there through the highs, they've been there through
the lows, and so it's you lose a lot when
you lose a friend, because it's sad to grieve the
history that that friendship comes with.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I feel like you just worded it so beautifully because
I feel like what I'm hearing is there was a
lot of emotional intimacy. You know, they've been there through
the ups and the downs, and it is kind of
that breaking away of the possibility of the memories and
the joy love that you experience. It's breaking away from
that as well, and that's scary. We don't like change, right.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
We don't like change, and when there's a lot of
history behind us with friends, we do feel a desire
to hold on to that. Whether it's the right or
wrong thing for us, there is a desire to hold
on to that history. I know for me, a lot
of my friends have been from my schooling years right
and we've been with each other through those life transitions
(06:37):
of going to UNI and figuring out what to do
in the world and in our careers, and some of
us have got married and had babies and done all
sorts of things, and you live life with that person
by your side in some way, and so it's a
big part of our life friends.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
But I guess the other question I have is what
if it's not a breakup at all, and actually it's
a re establishment of boundaries, like redefining the friendship.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think this is a good point because people can
sometimes be quick to jump to cutting the friendship, off
ending the friendship, right like, oh, we have this misalignment
of values, or you know, this person's not putting in
as much effort as I am, and so this isn't
the right friendship for me anymore, and I'm going to
end it. Well, maybe we don't need to end it,
but as you say, it's just this kind of redefining
(07:23):
what the friendship looks like. We all have friends that
I want to say, serve different purposes in our lives. Right,
no one person is going to be well maybe they are,
but no one person should feel the pressure to be
the ultimate friend and ultimate person. I guess what I
mean by that is that we have some friends that
might be the fun friends. They are the people we
(07:43):
go out with on the weekend, we have a nice
time with them, We enjoy ourselves with them, but they're
maybe not the person we call up when we've just
had heartbreak in our lives and we want to cry
on the phone to them. We might have friends who
share similar interests and hobbies to us, you know, the
friends that we go hiking with, or the friends that
are in the run club or something. We might have
friends who are the work friends, right, we share common
(08:07):
space day to day, we share commonality because we work
together and we bond over that, but perhaps we don't
necessarily take that outside of work. And then we have
the friends who are the emotionally close friends, the people
we feel very emotionally intimate with, and they serve a
particular role and function in our lives. So it's important
to kind of think about where different people fit in
(08:29):
our lives and making sure for ourselves that we see
them in that role and we're not kind of expecting
them to necessarily be more than that. Different people serve
different purposes in terms of friendships for us.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I really like that because I think so often, you know,
there's that concept when we were growing up in high
school where there's the whole concept of fiffles. You know,
we had those like best friends for life, and we
had the best friend bracelets and you had the best
friend necklaces. And in a way, I feel like it
was this false narrative where it was like, oh, I
(09:03):
need to do everything, share everything with my best friend,
and I feel like there is some version of adult
team when we realize, actually, you know, that person's for
this purpose and this person's for that purpose. Like it's
not a bad thing to sometimes compartmentalize, right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Maybe the best friend sounds like a lot of pressure
right now, I have at it right, like you're the
best friends, like you support that person and everything in
their life, and that feels like a lot of pressure
as opposed to like, you know, I feel this part
of this person's life, but maybe I don't do all
things with them.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, that's so true. And I feel like I've come
from a different lens because I used to work with
my best friends as well, and that was a really
interesting dynamic to move through and knowing Okay, what's personal
what's professional, and it was really challenging as well. I
think also coming back to what you were talking about
around setting new boundaries, I think that that could be
(09:54):
hard but also really necessary because I know for me,
I've definitely had situations where I did set a boundary
with certain friends in my life because I had a
lot going on emotionally and I couldn't hold the conversation
about that relationship in that time. So I did set
a bit of a boundary, like, hey, I'm just taking
a bit of a break, and they respected it as well.
(10:15):
But that was a moment for me to not just
always say yes because I'm such a yes person. And
you know, we've definitely talked about people pleasing in season one.
We'll head back to those episodes. So it was a
moment for me to step into my power and own
what was going to be in alignment with my own
values in that moment.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, and the idea that it doesn't have to be
a breakup, it can be a break Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, let's talk about guilt because kind of extending on
people pleasing and how you know, these people have been
such core parts of our lives. So often we can
feel like the bad person or the villain when it's
time for us to step away from a friendship. Why
is it so hard for us to change a dynamic
(10:59):
with a friend.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's hard because you know, if we feel guilt, and
if we feel bad about it, we probably still care
for this person and still value the relationship that we've had.
The right just because the friendship or the relationship right
now doesn't feel good or it feels like we need
a break from it or we want to step away
from it completely, doesn't mean it hasn't been great in
(11:21):
the past.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Just like any relationship, even romantic relationships, they might reach
a point where they're no longer healthy for us, but
there may certainly be times in the past where there
have been wonderful experiences with great shared memories and great
emotional intimacy, and that can feel really sad and hard
to step away from, even if it's the best thing
for us.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It's really interesting because as we're talking more about this conversation,
it gets me thinking about mel Robin's book The Lethem Theory.
I have read it, and there's something that she talks
about around this concept of the great scattering and how
it's about how friends naturally can change in different transitions
in life, and how it is such a normal part
of life where you know, you go from you move
(12:05):
into state, your friends naturally change. And I remember when
I read that for the first time, I had this
moment of relief because I kept thinking there was something
wrong with me, being like, oh, I should keep these
people in my life because you spoke to how you've
been friends with people from school, Like, I actually don't
have any friends from school that I'm still connected with,
(12:27):
and there's no bad blood there, Like, I think they're
all really beautiful people, but I think it was a
natural flow of life and noticing when I moved into
State that just changed. And it's just nice to know
that it's okay.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It's the permission piece, right, giving ourselves permission to change
as people, and that means our relationships will naturally change,
and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's
not that we're no longer friends with this person because
they've done something that's so hurtful to us that we
can't possibly forgive them. It's just that life changes and
priorities change, and I think there's actually something so beautiful
(13:02):
about a friendship when you can have that time that's
passed where maybe you haven't spoken to each other or
seen one another, but you can kind of call that
for what it is and be like, hey, I've got
a great friend from school that I don't see very often,
but when we do connect, it's like, Hey, we haven't
spoken for almost a year, but I love you as
a friend. You're a wonderful person. Like, let's make some
(13:23):
time to reconnect in some way, whether it's a phone
call or in person catch up. And I think there's
something so lovely about being able to own the space
and the distance. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I
care about you any less or I value you any less.
It's just that life has happened.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So true, And I think it's one of those things
where at the end of the day, we can't control
other people's reactions, and especially with a best friend or
a friend that you've done a lot of life with,
you know how they're going to respond usually, so I
can imagine that hesitation of even wanting to lean into
the conversation because you're already playing out all the potential
scenarios like, oh, they're going to think this, they're going
(14:01):
to think this, they're going to share it with all
of our collective friends, and you just create all these
you know, you end up spiraling before even having the conversation. Yes,
but absolutely yeah, And I think what I'm hearing is
that it's okay to feel those things and you know,
take that next step.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Whatever. That is absolutely so some.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Of you I do want to talk about because it
kind of ties back to the title of this whole
episode around how to end friendships without ghosting. I can
imagine it's potentially not a clinical term, so we'd we'd
love to hear what is ghosting? Is it all that bad?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes, ghosting? Well, you're right, it's not a clinical term.
I looked up online to try and find the official
definition of ghosting, if there is one, so I'll say,
according to the Oxford Learner's Dictionary, okay, we're gone there,
ghosting is the practice of ending a personal relationship with
someone by suddenly stopping all communication without explanation. So I
(15:01):
think the key parts about this is it's sudden, right,
it feels like it comes out of the blue. It's
not expected, it's sudden, and it it happens without any explanation.
So the person on the other end is left feeling
often very confused and potentially overwhelmed by what's happened.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So with ghosting, is it all that bad?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
That's a good question. Look, if it is someone that
you have a close personal relationship with, if you have
a friendship with them, if you're dating them, et cetera.
My advice would be not to ghost. Yeah, I think
out of kind of respect for how we would like
to be treated, Let's treat others that way. And if
(15:45):
we would be in a situation where we would find
it really unpleasant or uncomfortable or a bit disheartening to
be ghosted by someone, then let's not inflict that same
sort of behavior or treatment on someone else. That's very
different to friendships or relationships that kind of naturally drift, right,
the sort of natural drift where things just you know,
(16:07):
neither person is kind of putting the effort in and
so they sort of drift apart. But that's different because
it's not sudden, and one person is not left on
the other end going what on earth has happened? Because
that's a really unsettling feeling.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Something I am curious about when it comes to ghosting
is could it be also a capacity thing? I know
I spoke before about an example of me not having
the capacity to have a conversation. What happens if you
don't have the capacity to lean into that conversation and
slash or the person on the receiving end can't it
(16:39):
doesn't have the capacity to receive it. So what do
you do on that end? Because if there isn't a space,
a mutual space of being open and willing to lean
into the conversation, is there a point to actually even
have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, I say own it. If capacity is the issue,
If you don't feel like in this moment you can
show up and have the conversation, or you don't feel
like you can explain to someone you know why it
is you want to step away from the friendship or
the relationship, then I say own the capacity, because that
at least gives the person some understanding as to what's happening.
There's nothing wrong with being able to say to someone
(17:14):
like I'm not able to continue in this friendship or
this relationship at this point in time.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
That doesn't have to mean forever, It just means right now,
I'm just feeling like I don't have the capacity to
be able to kind of talk through this right now.
But perhaps later we can come back to it. I
hope you can understand, right just being transparent, honest, I
think people really value or I really value when people
are honest and transparent about how they're feeling and they
share the hard stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It's not easy to do. It's not easy for any
of us to do, but we can have respect for
someone that.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Does it, and I can also hear in that it's
also a really good character buility moment. Right when we're
leaning into a bit of you know, we're stepping out
of our comfort zone, we're leaning into the eakiness of
how this is going to end up. And it is
a good life skill to learn. Whether it's friendships, whether
it's you know, conflict in the workplace, it's inevitable. So
I really like that you're a pro clear community.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Clear communication. Absolutely, And you know what, if we don't
communicate clearly and the other person on the other end
is feeling confused and doesn't know what's happening, often people
will resort to blaming themselves, and that's what we don't want.
If we get ghosted, often we'll sit there, we'll ruminate
over what's happened. We'll go over the scenarios. We'll overthink
(18:33):
did I say something, did I do something? Was at
that time I called them on the phone and they
were really busy but I kept talking anyway, you know,
we'll try and pinpoint the thing that we did that
made someone ghost us, and we want to avoid someone
going through that process if it really isn't a them thing.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So if you're the one that's been ghosted, what should
you do?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I think you can go multiple ways here, right, Like,
I think there are some people who would be on
the receiving end of being ghosted in a friendship and
feel really hurt by that, but not want to take
the step forward to try and open up communication. And
I respect that, right, It's not for everyone, and it
can sometimes feel more hurtful to try and like reach
out to that person and not potentially get a response.
(19:12):
The other option is to maybe send a message, you know,
a text, whatever it might be that just sort of
recognizes what's happened. So, you know, Hey, I haven't heard
from you in a while. I've tried to contact you,
I haven't heard back from you. I do hope things
are okay. Let me know when you're ready to chat.
You know, I often think about what's the decision for
(19:34):
me personally that I'm going to feel best with at
the end of the day, because the end of the
day I have to live with myself and my decisions
and my choices, and what I might decide to do
might be different to what someone else does. But if
you can get to the end of the day and
go okay, you know what, Like I'm satisfied and I'm
glad I made that decision, even if they choose not
to respond, then I feel like I've done okay.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
After the shopbreak, doctor an Atasia is going to teach
us how to navigate the tough conversation when you think
you need to end a friendship. Stay with us. Okay, Anastasia,
We've now covered a lot of the signs to look
out for when you're considering having a friendship breakup. But
how how do we have the breakup conversation? Can you
(20:21):
give us a bit of a roadmap around how to
navigate this with love and respect?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yes? Absolutely, this is a framework. I'm going to call
it the care framework, a nice acronym.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That's great, we love a good acronym.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
The care framework for a friend breakup. But I want
to also say this, you can use this framework for
redefining readjusting boundaries, you know, kind of talking to someone
about how you might like some tweaks in the friendship right,
So it doesn't just have to be for the breakup.
It can be for how to have a conversation with
a friend that might be hard. Right, So let's go
(20:55):
through it. C are So C stands for choose the
right time and place. So before we get into what
we're going to say, let's get the setting right. Are
you guys going to have a FaceTime call. Are you
going to have a chat over the phone, You're going
to sit at a cafe, You're going to sit in
a park in a quiet spot, You're going to go
to someone's place. Right, what does the setting actually look like.
(21:17):
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here,
but think carefully about having the setting right, because if
the setting is wrong, if you're in like a really noisy,
busy cafe and you're trying to tell someone, look, I
think we need to redefine our friendship. It's not going
to be, you know, the easiest place to have a
potentially hard conversation, right. So that's the sea choosing the
(21:41):
right time and place. Next one is a acknowledge the
friendship and your feelings. This is the part I really like,
particularly when the redefining of the friendship or the breakup
can be very bittersweet, right when you have a lot
of care for that person but the friendship is just
no longer working for you. Acknowledge the friendship, Acknowledge the history,
(22:03):
Acknowledge the good qualities of that person. Acknowledge what you've
really valued about the friendship. Right, so we want to
really lean into acknowledging those things and acknowledge how you feel.
Acknowledge that this might be a really hard conversation for
you to have. Acknowledge that you might be feeling a
bit of guilt. Acknowledge that you might be feeling a
bit sad. Acknowledge that you might also be feeling a
(22:25):
bit relieved to have this conversation. Right. So, the A
is all about acknowledging the friendship and acknowledging our feelings.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
And I really love that because in a way, you're
framing up the vulnerability piece, which is what fosters more
of that connection and that safety exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
You're modeling that openness and that transparency and the vulnerability. Okay,
so choose the right time and place. Acknowledge the friendship
R is about relaying your reasons okay, So you want
to share your reasons with the person as to why
you'd like the friendship to change, or why you'd like
to take a break from the friendship. Whatever those reasons
(23:03):
might be, try and reflect them and state them using
eye statements. So I've noticed this or I'm feeling this, right,
So providing the person with your reasons and then e
is ending with empathy. Now, some people might say, if
the friendship has been a really horrible one and I
don't want to end with empathy, I don't have to.
That's okay. But again, if it's that bittersweet ending, or
(23:26):
you do want to have the friendship with them, but
you want to sort of change the dynamic, provide the empathy,
lean into the difficult emotions, you know, talk about how
this might be hard for that person to hear, or
it might be upsetting, or it might be unwanted. So
end with empathy. What I love about this framework is
(23:46):
that it leans into emotion and as you said, vulnerability, right,
and that can be a really honest and kind way
to have hard conversations with someone.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I really love this framework. It's so good. One other
question I do have, because you have mentioned how it
can be really scary to lean into these conversations. And
now we've got this framing of the care framework, would
you be able to step out a potential script because
I know you did this last season, particularly with the
Dear method back in what was that episode six? I
(24:20):
think it was episode six. Go check it out. But
I just feel like it's really helpful to have that.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes, Okay, all right, So let's use an example. Let's
say that I need to have a break from my
friends Lucy.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You can pretend I'm Lucy too. You can pretend you end.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I don't have a friend called Lucy. So if there's
any way Lucy's listen out there, this is.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Not about you, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
So if I need to have a break from Lucy, right,
I'm gonna look at you and deliver it to you
as shanis if you're Lucy. So let's say I've asked you, Lucy,
to come meet me, know, just at a kind of
like we'll grab a cup of coffee and sit in
a park somewhere where it's a bit quiet, right, Okay,
So I've chosen the time and the place. Lucy's agreed
(25:06):
to that. So I'm gonna say Lucy. We've been friends
for so long, literally for years and years. We've had
some good memories together. I remember the time we went
on that Europe trip together and we had lots of fun,
and we've shared highs and lows in life, and I
think you're a really wonderful person with so many great qualities.
(25:26):
So that's my acknowledgment of friendship. Now I'm going to
acknowledge feelings. I'm noticing that lately I've been feeling like
our friendship just isn't what it used to be. Our
friendship just doesn't have the same connection, the same intimacy,
the same reciprocity as what it used to Okay, so
(25:48):
that's me acknowledging my feelings now that are relay my
reasons for wanting to redefine the friendship. What I'm thinking
is that it's worth us having a conversation about perhaps
how we view each other in this friendship going forward,
and perhaps if we need to change our expectations for
one another, because I know we've previously been really close
(26:09):
and the way that life has changed, that's just not
so possible anymore. E And with empathy, I care about you,
I value you. I know that you're busy. I know
that life gets hard, So I want us to kind
of figure out what we mean to each other as
friends going forward, and if maybe we can give each
(26:30):
other permission to not have to force this friendship if
it doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
It's beautifully articulated.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
How did that feel to be on the receiver end of.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Well, it's really the way you delivered it was with respect,
and I could feel it was coming from a really
genuine place. So there's a I mean, I'm speaking, I'm
seeing from my perspective, you know, and it might be
different for other people, But I did feel there was
this mutual love and respect and also respect in the
(27:02):
sense of because there's a lot of courage to lean
into the conversation because it takes one person to lead it,
and there's a bit like there's respect there for you
to want to even have the conversation. Yeah, So does
that mean in that way with this framework, because I
know when you were talking about it, it's like a
monologue in a way. Would you want people to kind
(27:26):
of not stay too stiff with the framework and allow
that to be a bit of back and forth because
I can imagine, when you're talking about acknowledging feelings, you
might want to naturally create space for them to also
acknowledge and share feelings. I know that's really specific, but
sometimes I think these conversations do need to be really
structured because we don't have the roadmap. You're giving us
the roadmap, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I would say, with that care framework, and really it's
the AAR that sort of tell you what to say.
I would say, deliver that all at once. Don't get
too into it, right, We don't have to kind of
create this big long script. It can be literally kind
of four sentences, five sentences. I think if you can
communicate your whole message to someone so that they can
(28:07):
respond to everything you've said, that canst clear communication. But
if we only get like one or two sentences in
and then open up for someone to respond, we can
easily kind of drift away from our endpoint. So communicate
your whole message and then like invite that person to respond.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Okay, so you've now had the conversation, you hug, you
walk away. What now, because I can imagine there's a
possibility of running into each other in similar circles, Right.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
What do we do after the friend break or the
friend breakup is a very good question. I think sometimes
we don't quite give it enough consideration, but it's very important.
So there's two parts to this. What do we do
when we perhaps see that person in the world, But
then what do we also do for ourselves? Because we're sad,
right and it's hard. So I would say for yourself,
(28:57):
have a plan as to how you're going to manage
social interactions where you may see that person. Now, it
could be that you just bump into them at a
social event, or it could be that you know you're
going to see them again because you have this same
shared circle of friends. Have a plan for how you're
going to interact with them. Maybe that's just a smile
and nod and a hello, but you're not really going
(29:18):
to get into in depth conversations with that person. Maybe
you're happy to continue being friends with that person on
social media, but you don't necessarily want to catch up
with them for coffee in real life. Right, have a
plan for what the aftermath of the friend break with
a friend breakup looks like. And the reason I suggest
that is because it can be really hard and overwhelming
(29:39):
when you walk into that social setting. Without a plan
of what to do right to be anxiety provoking. It's
a little bit scary. But if you have a mental plan,
it's going to help you feel more calm and comfortable
to approach those situations.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I can definitely relate to that when I did not
have a plan for my half to care. So, how
do we look after ourselves because we are clearly walking
away very sad.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
It's grief, right, A friendship breakdown or break is a
form of us losing something. Even if we choose it right,
it's still a loss. It's still grief. So we want
to look after ourselves in the same way that we
would look after ourselves if we have a romantic breakup
or if we experience loss of other sorts. Right, it
(30:21):
means taking the time to be compassionate with ourselves, to
look after ourselves, to do the self soothing things. Have
the bubble bath, have the cry, reach out to other friends,
lean on them for support, do the things that you
need to do to look after yourself emotionally in those moments.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I feel like this has been so juicy, and I
feel like so many people are going to be bookmarking
writing down the care framework after this show break, You're
going to hear from a woman who ended a friendship,
but things are getting awkward because they're still part of
the same friend group.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Bibby hearb Berby. I'm having a serious Christy the BRB
having a crisis.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
We've reached the time in our episode where we answer
a question or dilemma from one of you. Anaesthetia. Our
first dilemma before the season is from Mikayla.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
I recently ended a friendship and it basically felt like
a breakup because I just didn't feel like it was
adding anything positive to my life anymore. The hard part
is we're still in the same friendship group, so I
still have to see her at group hangouts, birthdays.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
All that.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
It's awkward, and we haven't really spoken since.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
I've also heard she's been saying some not so great
things about me to other people in the group. There's
a group dinner coming up that I really want to
go to, which has already said she's going. Now I'm
not sure if I should still go. I don't want drama,
but I also don't want to miss out just because
she'll be there. How do I handle situations like this?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh, that's hard, very relatable.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
It is hard, And look, there's a few things to this.
First of all, I don't love to hear that this
friend has been ex friend has been saying unkind things
about our listener. So I mean, the first thing I'd
throw out there is consider whether or not it feels
right for you to actually bring this up with her,
like is it worth a conversation and to say, hey,
I've heard these things going around? Is this true? Can
(32:14):
you please not say these things about me?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
That will very person to person as to whether people
want to do that or not. But second to that,
whether or not to go to this social catch up.
Sometimes when people can't figure out what to do, I
suggest that they use the concept of regret to figure
out what decision to make. Which decision will you regret
(32:38):
the least? Will you regret not going to the party,
or will you regret going? You know which one? Are
you going to regret least? I would encourage our listener
to go. Why should you have to miss out on
a social gathering just because you've had this friendship breakdown?
If your other friends going to go, she's going to go,
(33:00):
why do you have to miss out? Right? Yes, it's
going to be a bit awkward. Yes, it's going to
be a bit uncomfortable, but you know what, You'll be
able to rip that band aid off and it will
set the tone and the scene for future social gatherings
where you're able to see one another. You can maybe nod,
say hello, smile. You don't have to sit right next
to each other. You can sit at opposite ends of
the table if you have to, But it sets the
(33:22):
scene for being able to be in the same space
as one another without being really close friends. Now, if
you're worried about drama, I would say this, you can't
change or control what other people are going to do,
but you can make a commitment to yourself to show
up to this social event. Hold true within yourself, be
(33:44):
strong within yourself, and not get pulled into drama. Still
be respectful of other people, respectful of yourself, respectful of
the situation. You don't need to get pulled into drama,
even if other people are creating it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Can we also go back to this shit talking part, like,
how do you even approach that conversation? If you were
going to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
With some bravery? That's my shop. But I think really again,
like I come back to sort of this care framework
that's all about the vulnerability. As we said, right, it's
approaching that person. It might be a text, it might
be a phone call, whatever feels right for you, but
really sort of acknowledging. Look, i've heard that you've said
(34:25):
these things about me. We don't know if it's true
or not, right, so I don't want to come across
as accusatree, but I've heard that you've been seeing these
things about me. If this is true, can you please stop?
I really don't appreciate being talked about in this way.
I would rather our personal friendship and business stay out
of other people's lives and just stay between us. So
if there is something you feel like you need to
(34:46):
bring up with me, please send me a text, call me,
let's discuss it. But we don't need to talk about
it with other people.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
What happens if they get quite defensive, because I can
imagine when someone shit talking about you, they're very angry, right,
So there's a heidened state of emotion. And again we
don't know how they're going to respond to that, because
it does take a lot of courage.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, stay calm, find that anchor within yourself, try not
to react. To their defensiveness and just sort of reiterate, Look,
I've just heard this and I just want to share
that if this is the case, can you please not
do it? So a little bit of that being that
broken record, repeating what you have to say, but doing
it with confidence and.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Kindness, And as Michelle Obama would say, when they go low,
you go high. Yes, Anastasia, I'm so happy we had
this discussion because friendship breakups are something we all deal with,
no matter what stage of life we're in. Can you
(35:49):
reiterate the main takeaways from today's episode.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
One hundred percent. First of all, just because we're friends
with someone now doesn't mean we will be friends with
them forever, and that's okay. Second, consider if the friendship
breakup is just because you're on different parts in life
or because there are deeper, more serious issues in the ship. Third,
consider whether you want to remain friends but just at
(36:14):
a distance, or if you no longer want contact with
this person at all. Fourth, use the care framework if
you're struggling to find the words to have the conversation.
And last of all, have a plan for how to
handle mutual social interactions.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
If you have a burning question for us. There are
a few ways to get in touch links or in
the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I'm a Shani Dante and I'm.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Doctor Anastasia Hernus. The names and stories of people discussed
have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If
this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we
have links for more resources in the show notes around
the topics we discussed today. You can also reach out
to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting
(37:21):
more immediate support. Tune in next week as we unpack
how to reframe negative body thoughts in the age of
weight loss, meds and skinny culture.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Muma Mia Studios are starred with furniture from Fentin and Fentin.
Visit Fenton Andfentin dot com dot au want to win
a ten dollar e gift card and a Mumma mea
subscription free for one month. Give us twenty minutes of
your time and fill out a short survey so we
can better understand you, our audience, and what content you
want from us. You'll find a link in our show notes.
(37:53):
Thanks for listening and seeing you next time.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
On Hello, bestie, there are you. Don't ghost me on Snapchat.
I can see that you are on Snapchat. I can
see you on the map.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
For Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to
But Are You Happy? The show for people who say
no worries far clearly deeply worried.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
And I'm doctor Anastaga Heronis, a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Have you ever wondered why friendship
breakups feel so brutal?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Yeah, I've definitely had my fair share of friendship breakups
and breakdowns? Why does it feel worse than breaking up
with a romantic partner?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
That's what we're going to talk about today. How to
end a friendship without ghosting someone and leaving them wondering
what just happened?
Speaker 1 (01:10):
Get into it, okay, Anathasia. I want to start off
with the big scary question that so many of us
are thinking but are too scared to actually talk about
out loud. How do we know when it's time to
end a friendship? Can you give us some of the
signs to look out for.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, friendship is a big one that I think doesn't
get talked about enough. So I'm so glad we're having
this conversation. So, yeah, let's talk about signs of unhealthy friendships. Right,
when we think about a friendship, we want it to
be happy, fun, respectful, emotional. We want to feel like
we have a strong sense of connection with someone. So
I guess when we're looking for signs of an unhealthy friendship,
(01:51):
we might be looking at signs of, you know, someone
who's not kind of reciprocating the friendship. Right, Friendship's got
to be two ways, not just a one way straight
so we need that reciprocity. We need to feel like
we can trust that person. If our friend is not
someone we feel like we can trust, then are they
really our friend. We don't want to have any ox
ssessive signs of jealousy any one person trying to control
(02:14):
the dynamic. It's got to really be kind of fair
and respectful to both people.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
And I can imagine with these signs as well, like,
would you be looking at for these signs consistently? Because
I understand, you know, at the end of the day.
We're all human and sometimes we're going through a bad day.
We can project our stuff onto someone else, Like, can
you tell me a little bit more about that? Is
it a consistent thing that we're looking out for.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I think you've hit the nail on the head there
with the idea of patterns, right, Like, it's never going
to be one hundred percents equal all of the time,
Right There's going to be times where one person has
less capacity than the other. One friend steps up and
fills the space while the other person is maybe like
a little bit down or unable to kind of contribute
as much. That's fine as long as we don't find
(02:57):
ourselves in a pattern where one person is always unavailable
or always wants things to be exactly on their terms,
or we always have to go to the sushi place
that the friend wants to go to instead of it
kind of being a fair share of who get to
pick where we go for dinner.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Yeah. And it's really interesting because as you're unpacking some
of these signs, something else that I think about could
be another potential sign would be a misalignment in values, right, Like,
I know, for me, I've had to step away from
friendships where I've been deeply hurt and that friend knew
the impact that they had on me, but didn't make
(03:32):
the effort to repair. And that was a misalignment in
values for me because love and respect's really important, but
in that particular situation, they weren't demonstrating that and that
was really hard. But I did have to question the friendship.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Yeah, that's such a good point, the values misalignment, right,
And I think values is a big one. We've talked
about values before on the podcast. But you know, we
can have different values where like I value adventure and
New value creativity, so we might have kind of different
interest in hobbies, right, But when it comes down to
those really core values around respect and honesty and forgiveness
(04:11):
and repair, you know, if we differ on some of
those really core values with our friends, then we might
find it hard to maintain a friendship with them. As
you've said, so, what are some of.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
The common red flags to look out for when it
comes to an unhealthy relationship?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
So I would say signs of an unhealthy friendship are
things like when someone's disrespecting your boundaries and doing so constantly.
Maybe they're not willing to sort of respect, your emotional
limits or limits on your time and your availability. Maybe
if someone's constantly negative, right, really being negative and pulling
the friendship down, a lot of criticisms. They're very critical
(04:47):
of you and harsh towards you. They don't give the
support when you feel like you need it. There's a
lot of conflict in the friendship, maybe some betrayal, maybe gossip, jealousy, dishonesty,
and then of course the imbalance of effort. If you
feel like you're the person who is always putting in
the effort and it's not a two way street, that's
probably a sign that there's something unhealthy going on in
(05:09):
the friendship.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Why do ending a friendship feel just as hard as
a romantic breakup?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Often we've had these friends through the ups and downs
of our lives. Right, We've gone through romantic breakups and
they've been the person there who shoulder we cry on.
Or we've gone through illness or death of a parent,
or a change in career or trying to figure out
our identity. You know, these different kind of life stages
we go through. Those friends are there with us and
(05:36):
they've seen the changes in who we are, how we
show up in the world, our personality, our interests, our choices.
They've been there through the highs, they've been there through
the lows, and so it's you lose a lot when
you lose a friend, because it's sad to grieve the
history that that friendship comes with.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
I feel like you just worded it so beautifully because
I feel like what I'm hearing is there was a
lot of emotional intimacy. You know, they've been there through
the ups and the downs, and it is kind of
that breaking away of the possibility of the memories and
the joy love that you experience. It's breaking away from
that as well, and that's scary. We don't like change, right.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
We don't like change, and when there's a lot of
history behind us with friends, we do feel a desire
to hold on to that. Whether it's the right or
wrong thing for us, there is a desire to hold
on to that history. I know for me, a lot
of my friends have been from my schooling years right
and we've been with each other through those life transitions
(06:37):
of going to UNI and figuring out what to do
in the world and in our careers, and some of
us have got married and had babies and done all
sorts of things, and you live life with that person
by your side in some way, and so it's a
big part of our life friends.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
But I guess the other question I have is what
if it's not a breakup at all, and actually it's
a re establishment of boundaries, like redefining the friendship.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
I think this is a good point because people can
sometimes be quick to jump to cutting the friendship, off
ending the friendship, right like, oh, we have this misalignment
of values, or you know, this person's not putting in
as much effort as I am, and so this isn't
the right friendship for me anymore, and I'm going to
end it. Well, maybe we don't need to end it,
but as you say, it's just this kind of redefining
(07:23):
what the friendship looks like. We all have friends that
I want to say, serve different purposes in our lives. Right,
no one person is going to be well maybe they are,
but no one person should feel the pressure to be
the ultimate friend and ultimate person. I guess what I
mean by that is that we have some friends that
might be the fun friends. They are the people we
(07:43):
go out with on the weekend, we have a nice
time with them, We enjoy ourselves with them, but they're
maybe not the person we call up when we've just
had heartbreak in our lives and we want to cry
on the phone to them. We might have friends who
share similar interests and hobbies to us, you know, the
friends that we go hiking with, or the friends that
are in the run club or something. We might have
friends who are the work friends, right, we share common
(08:07):
space day to day, we share commonality because we work
together and we bond over that, but perhaps we don't
necessarily take that outside of work. And then we have
the friends who are the emotionally close friends, the people
we feel very emotionally intimate with, and they serve a
particular role and function in our lives. So it's important
to kind of think about where different people fit in
(08:29):
our lives and making sure for ourselves that we see
them in that role and we're not kind of expecting
them to necessarily be more than that. Different people serve
different purposes in terms of friendships for us.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I really like that because I think so often, you know,
there's that concept when we were growing up in high
school where there's the whole concept of fiffles. You know,
we had those like best friends for life, and we
had the best friend bracelets and you had the best
friend necklaces. And in a way, I feel like it
was this false narrative where it was like, oh, I
(09:03):
need to do everything, share everything with my best friend,
and I feel like there is some version of adult
team when we realize, actually, you know, that person's for
this purpose and this person's for that purpose. Like it's
not a bad thing to sometimes compartmentalize, right.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Maybe the best friend sounds like a lot of pressure
right now, I have at it right, like you're the
best friends, like you support that person and everything in
their life, and that feels like a lot of pressure
as opposed to like, you know, I feel this part
of this person's life, but maybe I don't do all
things with them.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Yeah, that's so true. And I feel like I've come
from a different lens because I used to work with
my best friends as well, and that was a really
interesting dynamic to move through and knowing Okay, what's personal
what's professional, and it was really challenging as well. I
think also coming back to what you were talking about
around setting new boundaries, I think that that could be
(09:54):
hard but also really necessary because I know for me,
I've definitely had situations where I did set a boundary
with certain friends in my life because I had a
lot going on emotionally and I couldn't hold the conversation
about that relationship in that time. So I did set
a bit of a boundary, like, hey, I'm just taking
a bit of a break, and they respected it as well.
(10:15):
But that was a moment for me to not just
always say yes because I'm such a yes person. And
you know, we've definitely talked about people pleasing in season one.
We'll head back to those episodes. So it was a
moment for me to step into my power and own
what was going to be in alignment with my own
values in that moment.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
Yeah, and the idea that it doesn't have to be
a breakup, it can be a break Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Yeah, let's talk about guilt because kind of extending on
people pleasing and how you know, these people have been
such core parts of our lives. So often we can
feel like the bad person or the villain when it's
time for us to step away from a friendship. Why
is it so hard for us to change a dynamic
(10:59):
with a friend.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
It's hard because you know, if we feel guilt, and
if we feel bad about it, we probably still care
for this person and still value the relationship that we've had.
The right just because the friendship or the relationship right
now doesn't feel good or it feels like we need
a break from it or we want to step away
from it completely, doesn't mean it hasn't been great in
(11:21):
the past.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
Right.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Just like any relationship, even romantic relationships, they might reach
a point where they're no longer healthy for us, but
there may certainly be times in the past where there
have been wonderful experiences with great shared memories and great
emotional intimacy, and that can feel really sad and hard
to step away from, even if it's the best thing
for us.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
It's really interesting because as we're talking more about this conversation,
it gets me thinking about mel Robin's book The Lethem Theory.
I have read it, and there's something that she talks
about around this concept of the great scattering and how
it's about how friends naturally can change in different transitions
in life, and how it is such a normal part
of life where you know, you go from you move
(12:05):
into state, your friends naturally change. And I remember when
I read that for the first time, I had this
moment of relief because I kept thinking there was something
wrong with me, being like, oh, I should keep these
people in my life because you spoke to how you've
been friends with people from school, Like, I actually don't
have any friends from school that I'm still connected with,
(12:27):
and there's no bad blood there, Like, I think they're
all really beautiful people, but I think it was a
natural flow of life and noticing when I moved into
State that just changed. And it's just nice to know
that it's okay.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
It's the permission piece, right, giving ourselves permission to change
as people, and that means our relationships will naturally change,
and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. It's
not that we're no longer friends with this person because
they've done something that's so hurtful to us that we
can't possibly forgive them. It's just that life changes and
priorities change, and I think there's actually something so beautiful
(13:02):
about a friendship when you can have that time that's
passed where maybe you haven't spoken to each other or
seen one another, but you can kind of call that
for what it is and be like, hey, I've got
a great friend from school that I don't see very often,
but when we do connect, it's like, Hey, we haven't
spoken for almost a year, but I love you as
a friend. You're a wonderful person. Like, let's make some
(13:23):
time to reconnect in some way, whether it's a phone
call or in person catch up. And I think there's
something so lovely about being able to own the space
and the distance. But that doesn't necessarily mean that I
care about you any less or I value you any less.
It's just that life has happened.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So true, And I think it's one of those things
where at the end of the day, we can't control
other people's reactions, and especially with a best friend or
a friend that you've done a lot of life with,
you know how they're going to respond usually, so I
can imagine that hesitation of even wanting to lean into
the conversation because you're already playing out all the potential
scenarios like, oh, they're going to think this, they're going
(14:01):
to think this, they're going to share it with all
of our collective friends, and you just create all these
you know, you end up spiraling before even having the conversation. Yes,
but absolutely yeah, And I think what I'm hearing is
that it's okay to feel those things and you know,
take that next step.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Whatever. That is absolutely so some.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Of you I do want to talk about because it
kind of ties back to the title of this whole
episode around how to end friendships without ghosting. I can
imagine it's potentially not a clinical term, so we'd we'd
love to hear what is ghosting? Is it all that bad?
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes, ghosting? Well, you're right, it's not a clinical term.
I looked up online to try and find the official
definition of ghosting, if there is one, so I'll say,
according to the Oxford Learner's Dictionary, okay, we're gone there,
ghosting is the practice of ending a personal relationship with
someone by suddenly stopping all communication without explanation. So I
(15:01):
think the key parts about this is it's sudden, right,
it feels like it comes out of the blue. It's
not expected, it's sudden, and it it happens without any explanation.
So the person on the other end is left feeling
often very confused and potentially overwhelmed by what's happened.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
So with ghosting, is it all that bad?
Speaker 2 (15:24):
That's a good question. Look, if it is someone that
you have a close personal relationship with, if you have
a friendship with them, if you're dating them, et cetera.
My advice would be not to ghost. Yeah, I think
out of kind of respect for how we would like
to be treated, Let's treat others that way. And if
(15:45):
we would be in a situation where we would find
it really unpleasant or uncomfortable or a bit disheartening to
be ghosted by someone, then let's not inflict that same
sort of behavior or treatment on someone else. That's very
different to friendships or relationships that kind of naturally drift, right,
the sort of natural drift where things just you know,
(16:07):
neither person is kind of putting the effort in and
so they sort of drift apart. But that's different because
it's not sudden, and one person is not left on
the other end going what on earth has happened? Because
that's a really unsettling feeling.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Something I am curious about when it comes to ghosting
is could it be also a capacity thing? I know
I spoke before about an example of me not having
the capacity to have a conversation. What happens if you
don't have the capacity to lean into that conversation and
slash or the person on the receiving end can't it
(16:39):
doesn't have the capacity to receive it. So what do
you do on that end? Because if there isn't a space,
a mutual space of being open and willing to lean
into the conversation, is there a point to actually even
have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Yeah, I say own it. If capacity is the issue,
If you don't feel like in this moment you can
show up and have the conversation, or you don't feel
like you can explain to someone you know why it
is you want to step away from the friendship or
the relationship, then I say own the capacity, because that
at least gives the person some understanding as to what's happening.
There's nothing wrong with being able to say to someone
(17:14):
like I'm not able to continue in this friendship or
this relationship at this point in time.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
That doesn't have to mean forever, It just means right now,
I'm just feeling like I don't have the capacity to
be able to kind of talk through this right now.
But perhaps later we can come back to it. I
hope you can understand, right just being transparent, honest, I
think people really value or I really value when people
are honest and transparent about how they're feeling and they
share the hard stuff.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Right.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It's not easy to do. It's not easy for any
of us to do, but we can have respect for
someone that.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Does it, and I can also hear in that it's
also a really good character buility moment. Right when we're
leaning into a bit of you know, we're stepping out
of our comfort zone, we're leaning into the eakiness of
how this is going to end up. And it is
a good life skill to learn. Whether it's friendships, whether
it's you know, conflict in the workplace, it's inevitable. So
I really like that you're a pro clear community.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Clear communication. Absolutely, And you know what, if we don't
communicate clearly and the other person on the other end
is feeling confused and doesn't know what's happening, often people
will resort to blaming themselves, and that's what we don't want.
If we get ghosted, often we'll sit there, we'll ruminate
over what's happened. We'll go over the scenarios. We'll overthink
(18:33):
did I say something, did I do something? Was at
that time I called them on the phone and they
were really busy but I kept talking anyway, you know,
we'll try and pinpoint the thing that we did that
made someone ghost us, and we want to avoid someone
going through that process if it really isn't a them thing.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So if you're the one that's been ghosted, what should
you do?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
I think you can go multiple ways here, right, Like,
I think there are some people who would be on
the receiving end of being ghosted in a friendship and
feel really hurt by that, but not want to take
the step forward to try and open up communication. And
I respect that, right, It's not for everyone, and it
can sometimes feel more hurtful to try and like reach
out to that person and not potentially get a response.
(19:12):
The other option is to maybe send a message, you know,
a text, whatever it might be that just sort of
recognizes what's happened. So, you know, Hey, I haven't heard
from you in a while. I've tried to contact you,
I haven't heard back from you. I do hope things
are okay. Let me know when you're ready to chat.
You know, I often think about what's the decision for
(19:34):
me personally that I'm going to feel best with at
the end of the day, because the end of the
day I have to live with myself and my decisions
and my choices, and what I might decide to do
might be different to what someone else does. But if
you can get to the end of the day and
go okay, you know what, Like I'm satisfied and I'm
glad I made that decision, even if they choose not
to respond, then I feel like I've done okay.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
After the shopbreak, doctor an Atasia is going to teach
us how to navigate the tough conversation when you think
you need to end a friendship. Stay with us. Okay, Anastasia,
We've now covered a lot of the signs to look
out for when you're considering having a friendship breakup. But
how how do we have the breakup conversation? Can you
(20:21):
give us a bit of a roadmap around how to
navigate this with love and respect?
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Yes? Absolutely, this is a framework. I'm going to call
it the care framework, a nice acronym.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
That's great, we love a good acronym.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
The care framework for a friend breakup. But I want
to also say this, you can use this framework for
redefining readjusting boundaries, you know, kind of talking to someone
about how you might like some tweaks in the friendship right,
So it doesn't just have to be for the breakup.
It can be for how to have a conversation with
a friend that might be hard. Right, So let's go
(20:55):
through it. C are So C stands for choose the
right time and place. So before we get into what
we're going to say, let's get the setting right. Are
you guys going to have a FaceTime call. Are you
going to have a chat over the phone, You're going
to sit at a cafe, You're going to sit in
a park in a quiet spot, You're going to go
to someone's place. Right, what does the setting actually look like.
(21:17):
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here,
but think carefully about having the setting right, because if
the setting is wrong, if you're in like a really noisy,
busy cafe and you're trying to tell someone, look, I
think we need to redefine our friendship. It's not going
to be, you know, the easiest place to have a
potentially hard conversation, right. So that's the sea choosing the
(21:41):
right time and place. Next one is a acknowledge the
friendship and your feelings. This is the part I really like,
particularly when the redefining of the friendship or the breakup
can be very bittersweet, right when you have a lot
of care for that person but the friendship is just
no longer working for you. Acknowledge the friendship, Acknowledge the history,
(22:03):
Acknowledge the good qualities of that person. Acknowledge what you've
really valued about the friendship. Right, so we want to
really lean into acknowledging those things and acknowledge how you feel.
Acknowledge that this might be a really hard conversation for
you to have. Acknowledge that you might be feeling a
bit of guilt. Acknowledge that you might be feeling a
bit sad. Acknowledge that you might also be feeling a
(22:25):
bit relieved to have this conversation. Right. So, the A
is all about acknowledging the friendship and acknowledging our feelings.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
And I really love that because in a way, you're
framing up the vulnerability piece, which is what fosters more
of that connection and that safety exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
You're modeling that openness and that transparency and the vulnerability. Okay,
so choose the right time and place. Acknowledge the friendship
R is about relaying your reasons okay, So you want
to share your reasons with the person as to why
you'd like the friendship to change, or why you'd like
to take a break from the friendship. Whatever those reasons
(23:03):
might be, try and reflect them and state them using
eye statements. So I've noticed this or I'm feeling this, right,
So providing the person with your reasons and then e
is ending with empathy. Now, some people might say, if
the friendship has been a really horrible one and I
don't want to end with empathy, I don't have to.
That's okay. But again, if it's that bittersweet ending, or
(23:26):
you do want to have the friendship with them, but
you want to sort of change the dynamic, provide the empathy,
lean into the difficult emotions, you know, talk about how
this might be hard for that person to hear, or
it might be upsetting, or it might be unwanted. So
end with empathy. What I love about this framework is
(23:46):
that it leans into emotion and as you said, vulnerability, right,
and that can be a really honest and kind way
to have hard conversations with someone.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I really love this framework. It's so good. One other
question I do have, because you have mentioned how it
can be really scary to lean into these conversations. And
now we've got this framing of the care framework, would
you be able to step out a potential script because
I know you did this last season, particularly with the
Dear method back in what was that episode six? I
(24:20):
think it was episode six. Go check it out. But
I just feel like it's really helpful to have that.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Yes, Okay, all right, So let's use an example. Let's
say that I need to have a break from my
friends Lucy.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
You can pretend I'm Lucy too. You can pretend you end.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I don't have a friend called Lucy. So if there's
any way Lucy's listen out there, this is.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Not about you, Okay.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
So if I need to have a break from Lucy, right,
I'm gonna look at you and deliver it to you
as shanis if you're Lucy. So let's say I've asked you, Lucy,
to come meet me, know, just at a kind of
like we'll grab a cup of coffee and sit in
a park somewhere where it's a bit quiet, right, Okay,
So I've chosen the time and the place. Lucy's agreed
(25:06):
to that. So I'm gonna say Lucy. We've been friends
for so long, literally for years and years. We've had
some good memories together. I remember the time we went
on that Europe trip together and we had lots of fun,
and we've shared highs and lows in life, and I
think you're a really wonderful person with so many great qualities.
(25:26):
So that's my acknowledgment of friendship. Now I'm going to
acknowledge feelings. I'm noticing that lately I've been feeling like
our friendship just isn't what it used to be. Our
friendship just doesn't have the same connection, the same intimacy,
the same reciprocity as what it used to Okay, so
(25:48):
that's me acknowledging my feelings now that are relay my
reasons for wanting to redefine the friendship. What I'm thinking
is that it's worth us having a conversation about perhaps
how we view each other in this friendship going forward,
and perhaps if we need to change our expectations for
one another, because I know we've previously been really close
(26:09):
and the way that life has changed, that's just not
so possible anymore. E And with empathy, I care about you,
I value you. I know that you're busy. I know
that life gets hard, So I want us to kind
of figure out what we mean to each other as
friends going forward, and if maybe we can give each
(26:30):
other permission to not have to force this friendship if
it doesn't feel like it's going in that direction.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
It's beautifully articulated.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
How did that feel to be on the receiver end of.
Speaker 1 (26:41):
Well, it's really the way you delivered it was with respect,
and I could feel it was coming from a really
genuine place. So there's a I mean, I'm speaking, I'm
seeing from my perspective, you know, and it might be
different for other people, But I did feel there was
this mutual love and respect and also respect in the
(27:02):
sense of because there's a lot of courage to lean
into the conversation because it takes one person to lead it,
and there's a bit like there's respect there for you
to want to even have the conversation. Yeah, So does
that mean in that way with this framework, because I
know when you were talking about it, it's like a
monologue in a way. Would you want people to kind
(27:26):
of not stay too stiff with the framework and allow
that to be a bit of back and forth because
I can imagine, when you're talking about acknowledging feelings, you
might want to naturally create space for them to also
acknowledge and share feelings. I know that's really specific, but
sometimes I think these conversations do need to be really
structured because we don't have the roadmap. You're giving us
the roadmap, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
I would say, with that care framework, and really it's
the AAR that sort of tell you what to say.
I would say, deliver that all at once. Don't get
too into it, right, We don't have to kind of
create this big long script. It can be literally kind
of four sentences, five sentences. I think if you can
communicate your whole message to someone so that they can
(28:07):
respond to everything you've said, that canst clear communication. But
if we only get like one or two sentences in
and then open up for someone to respond, we can
easily kind of drift away from our endpoint. So communicate
your whole message and then like invite that person to respond.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Okay, so you've now had the conversation, you hug, you
walk away. What now, because I can imagine there's a
possibility of running into each other in similar circles, Right.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
What do we do after the friend break or the
friend breakup is a very good question. I think sometimes
we don't quite give it enough consideration, but it's very important.
So there's two parts to this. What do we do
when we perhaps see that person in the world, But
then what do we also do for ourselves? Because we're sad,
right and it's hard. So I would say for yourself,
(28:57):
have a plan as to how you're going to manage
social interactions where you may see that person. Now, it
could be that you just bump into them at a
social event, or it could be that you know you're
going to see them again because you have this same
shared circle of friends. Have a plan for how you're
going to interact with them. Maybe that's just a smile
and nod and a hello, but you're not really going
(29:18):
to get into in depth conversations with that person. Maybe
you're happy to continue being friends with that person on
social media, but you don't necessarily want to catch up
with them for coffee in real life. Right, have a
plan for what the aftermath of the friend break with
a friend breakup looks like. And the reason I suggest
that is because it can be really hard and overwhelming
(29:39):
when you walk into that social setting. Without a plan
of what to do right to be anxiety provoking. It's
a little bit scary. But if you have a mental plan,
it's going to help you feel more calm and comfortable
to approach those situations.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
I can definitely relate to that when I did not
have a plan for my half to care. So, how
do we look after ourselves because we are clearly walking
away very sad.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
It's grief, right, A friendship breakdown or break is a
form of us losing something. Even if we choose it right,
it's still a loss. It's still grief. So we want
to look after ourselves in the same way that we
would look after ourselves if we have a romantic breakup
or if we experience loss of other sorts. Right, it
(30:21):
means taking the time to be compassionate with ourselves, to
look after ourselves, to do the self soothing things. Have
the bubble bath, have the cry, reach out to other friends,
lean on them for support, do the things that you
need to do to look after yourself emotionally in those moments.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
I feel like this has been so juicy, and I
feel like so many people are going to be bookmarking
writing down the care framework after this show break, You're
going to hear from a woman who ended a friendship,
but things are getting awkward because they're still part of
the same friend group.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
Bibby hearb Berby. I'm having a serious Christy the BRB
having a crisis.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
We've reached the time in our episode where we answer
a question or dilemma from one of you. Anaesthetia. Our
first dilemma before the season is from Mikayla.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
I recently ended a friendship and it basically felt like
a breakup because I just didn't feel like it was
adding anything positive to my life anymore. The hard part
is we're still in the same friendship group, so I
still have to see her at group hangouts, birthdays.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
All that.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
It's awkward, and we haven't really spoken since.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
I've also heard she's been saying some not so great
things about me to other people in the group. There's
a group dinner coming up that I really want to
go to, which has already said she's going. Now I'm
not sure if I should still go. I don't want drama,
but I also don't want to miss out just because
she'll be there. How do I handle situations like this?
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Oh, that's hard, very relatable.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
It is hard, And look, there's a few things to this.
First of all, I don't love to hear that this
friend has been ex friend has been saying unkind things
about our listener. So I mean, the first thing I'd
throw out there is consider whether or not it feels
right for you to actually bring this up with her,
like is it worth a conversation and to say, hey,
I've heard these things going around? Is this true? Can
(32:14):
you please not say these things about me?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
Right?
Speaker 2 (32:17):
That will very person to person as to whether people
want to do that or not. But second to that,
whether or not to go to this social catch up.
Sometimes when people can't figure out what to do, I
suggest that they use the concept of regret to figure
out what decision to make. Which decision will you regret
(32:38):
the least? Will you regret not going to the party,
or will you regret going? You know which one? Are
you going to regret least? I would encourage our listener
to go. Why should you have to miss out on
a social gathering just because you've had this friendship breakdown?
If your other friends going to go, she's going to go,
(33:00):
why do you have to miss out? Right? Yes, it's
going to be a bit awkward. Yes, it's going to
be a bit uncomfortable, but you know what, You'll be
able to rip that band aid off and it will
set the tone and the scene for future social gatherings
where you're able to see one another. You can maybe nod,
say hello, smile. You don't have to sit right next
to each other. You can sit at opposite ends of
the table if you have to, But it sets the
(33:22):
scene for being able to be in the same space
as one another without being really close friends. Now, if
you're worried about drama, I would say this, you can't
change or control what other people are going to do,
but you can make a commitment to yourself to show
up to this social event. Hold true within yourself, be
(33:44):
strong within yourself, and not get pulled into drama. Still
be respectful of other people, respectful of yourself, respectful of
the situation. You don't need to get pulled into drama,
even if other people are creating it.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Can we also go back to this shit talking part, like,
how do you even approach that conversation? If you were
going to do that.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
With some bravery? That's my shop. But I think really again,
like I come back to sort of this care framework
that's all about the vulnerability. As we said, right, it's
approaching that person. It might be a text, it might
be a phone call, whatever feels right for you, but
really sort of acknowledging. Look, i've heard that you've said
(34:25):
these things about me. We don't know if it's true
or not, right, so I don't want to come across
as accusatree, but I've heard that you've been seeing these
things about me. If this is true, can you please stop?
I really don't appreciate being talked about in this way.
I would rather our personal friendship and business stay out
of other people's lives and just stay between us. So
if there is something you feel like you need to
(34:46):
bring up with me, please send me a text, call me,
let's discuss it. But we don't need to talk about
it with other people.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
What happens if they get quite defensive, because I can
imagine when someone shit talking about you, they're very angry, right,
So there's a heidened state of emotion. And again we
don't know how they're going to respond to that, because
it does take a lot of courage.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yeah, stay calm, find that anchor within yourself, try not
to react. To their defensiveness and just sort of reiterate, Look,
I've just heard this and I just want to share
that if this is the case, can you please not
do it? So a little bit of that being that
broken record, repeating what you have to say, but doing
it with confidence and.
Speaker 1 (35:28):
Kindness, And as Michelle Obama would say, when they go low,
you go high. Yes, Anastasia, I'm so happy we had
this discussion because friendship breakups are something we all deal with,
no matter what stage of life we're in. Can you
(35:49):
reiterate the main takeaways from today's episode.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
One hundred percent. First of all, just because we're friends
with someone now doesn't mean we will be friends with
them forever, and that's okay. Second, consider if the friendship
breakup is just because you're on different parts in life
or because there are deeper, more serious issues in the ship. Third,
consider whether you want to remain friends but just at
(36:14):
a distance, or if you no longer want contact with
this person at all. Fourth, use the care framework if
you're struggling to find the words to have the conversation.
And last of all, have a plan for how to
handle mutual social interactions.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
If you have a burning question for us. There are
a few ways to get in touch links or in
the show notes.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I'm a Shani Dante and I'm.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Doctor Anastasia Hernus. The names and stories of people discussed
have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If
this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we
have links for more resources in the show notes around
the topics we discussed today. You can also reach out
to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're wanting
(37:21):
more immediate support. Tune in next week as we unpack
how to reframe negative body thoughts in the age of
weight loss, meds and skinny culture.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Muma Mia Studios are starred with furniture from Fentin and Fentin.
Visit Fenton Andfentin dot com dot au want to win
a ten dollar e gift card and a Mumma mea
subscription free for one month. Give us twenty minutes of
your time and fill out a short survey so we
can better understand you, our audience, and what content you
want from us. You'll find a link in our show notes.
(37:53):
Thanks for listening and seeing you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com