September 26, 2025 • 32 mins
Porn is everywhere, and let’s be honest, watching it is super common. It’s a way a lot of people explore their sexuality. But it’s not all harmless.
In this episode of But Are You Happy, clinical psychologist Dr. Anastasia Hronis unpacks what porn actually does to our brain chemistry, and how it might be influencing our romantic and sexual relationships, often without us even realising.
You'll also learn:
- How porn has become more accessible and why
- What actually happens to the chemicals in our brain when we watch porn
- Porn addiction and how it differs from sex addiction
- How to re-examine a negative relationship to porn and move toward healthier intimacy
Watch the podcast on YouTube here.
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Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on What's Up?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I heard that you have a porn problem? What is that?
What are you seeing me? No, that's not it doesn't
send it's not sounding me as.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
All or Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome
to But are you happy? The podcast that helps you
realize your patterns aren't just because you're a Pisces with
the Libra moon.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Porn is everywhere, and let's be honest,
watching it is super common. It's a way a lot
of people explore their sexuality. But it's not all harmless,
and today we're going to talk about some of the
less talked about effects.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of porn out there shaping
some pretty unrealistic and sometimes harmful ideas about sex and intimacy.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Right exactly, I'm going to unpack what porn actually does
to our brain chemistry and how it might be influencing
our romantic and sexual relationships, often without us even realizing.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
This is such an important conversation. And just to preface,
we're not here to shame anyone. We're talking about sex
and porn in an open, honest way because avoiding the
topic doesn't make the impact any less real. This is
a very adult conversation about the realities of porn and
its impact in our sex lives and beyond. So do
listen mindfully, let's get into it. I feel like porn
(01:50):
is so accessible to really anyone, even kids, right.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Oh, absolutely to anyone, and especially kids.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
And it's funny you bring up kids right at the start,
because I was doing some research and reading that apparently
porn is now one of the biggest sexual educators that
children have. Research says that about half of boys by
the time they reach thirteen, they've seen porn, and for girls,
(02:18):
half have seen porn by the age of fifteen.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Wow, this is so young. That is very young.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And if you think about the type of pornography they
have access to, right, it's anything in everything. You can
access pornography websites by just clicking the button that says yep,
I'm over the age of eighteen.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
There's no real barriers in place, and if.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We think back years ago, you know, we didn't have
access to the internet like we do these days. You'd
have to take a long time to download a video
or something. Nowadays, our kids have access to pornography in
so many different, quick, easy accessible ways.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's really alarming when you break it down like that
as well, So at that age, what's going on with
their brain.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So a couple of things about the adolescent brain, right,
it's still very much developing, and two key things to
know about the developing adolescent brain. First of all, it
is highly susceptible to emotions and impulses. Right, So, the
limbic system in the brain, which is kind of an
(03:22):
older part of the brain which is responsible more so
for emotions and impulses, that's very well developed. But the
prefrontal cortex in the brain that helps us regulate ourselves
is not so well developed. So this is why we
see teens who are quite impulsive and struggle to sort
of make responsible decisions and regulate themselves. But the other
(03:42):
key thing about the developing brain is that it's highly plastic.
And when I say plastic, I mean it's very susceptible
to changes. It's very susceptible to the information that we
put into the brain, and this has pros and cons right,
brilliant for learning. It's why kids can learn things so
much faster than adults can.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It's very susceptible to what we put in. It learns
very quickly. But if we give it the wrong sorts
of inputs or unhealthy inputs like pornography, then it's going
to be wired to understand those messages and not healthier messages.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So what about the adult brain, how is that different
from the adolescent brain.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, so for both teens and adults. What happens in
the brain when we watch pornography or we have sex, right,
anything that's got that sexual nature to it is I'm
going to say my favorite word, dopamine is released. Right,
and again, from an evolutionary perspective, we needed dope mean
to be released during sexual interactions because this resulted in
(04:45):
survival of the species. We needed people to have sex,
We needed that to be a pleasurable and rewarding experience
because we needed people and humans to procreate the same
Dopamine pathways and reward pathways activated in the brain when
people watch pornography, and what we know about these reward
pathways in the brain is that over time they can
(05:07):
somewhat become desensitized.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So what that.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Means is that we need more of something to get
that same feeling of pleasure. So that might be that
we need more pornography, or we need more intense sort
of or stimulating pornography to be viewed in order to
get that same pleasurable feeling from it.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
So then, in a way, that would really impact sex
in general too, because if they're consuming all this porn
that's releasing all this high dopamine, that would impact naturally
your sex life.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes, absolutely, And if we put that back in the
context of kids, right, if children are watching porn before
they've ever even had a sexual experience, right, when we
think about what's happening in the brain, they're getting massive
dopamine activation from watching potentially some pretty intense pornographic scenes.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Right when they then go and have.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Much less intense experiences in real life, there's a real
chance that that's not going to feel as fulfilling or
satisfying or as exciting or pleasurable as what they've seen
on the videos online.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
There was something you were talking about before around dopamine
and addiction, which I know is definitely up your ali.
So is there such a thing called a porn addiction?
Is that a clinical definition?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So people can absolutely become addicted to pornography. It's not
yet technically kind of recognized in our diagnostic manuals as
a standalone diagnosis, okay, but between sort of clinicians and researchers,
we have an understanding that yes, this is a thing
that certainly does exist. So if I actually just break
down what an addiction is, because there are key features
(06:51):
of addictions that go across all sorts of addictions, whether
it's alcohol, whether it's porn, whether it's gambling, there are
some key features and I'll refer to the component's model
of addiction by Professor Mark Griffiths. So what we see
with any kind of addiction is that there's a salience
and a preoccupation with the addictive behavior. So in the
(07:12):
context of pornography, a person will find that they're thinking
about consuming porn very often. It's on their mind a lot.
They might be at work and it's popping into their mind.
There's this kind of mental preoccupation with it. We also
see mood modification. So when I engage with the addictive
behavior like pornography, I feel different in some way. I
(07:35):
use it in a way that helps me regulate myself.
Either it makes me feel excited, either it's a form
of escape, it makes me feel calmer, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
There's mood modification, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
We also find that people build a tolerance with an addiction.
So maybe, as I was saying with porn before, I
could sort of watch certain types of porn, but now
I feel like I need to watch more intense porn
or greater amounts of porn. Or maybe I transition from
watching porn to interacting with sex workers online. Right, so
(08:08):
I'm now kind of on live chat's talk to people.
So there's this kind of tolerance that builds that makes
me need or want more of it. We also see withdrawals,
So if someone tries to stop doing something like watching
porn when they have had some sort of addiction to it,
they will experience these withdrawal symptoms. And withdrawals are not
(08:29):
just relating to drugs and alcohol chemically, but our body
goes through a similar sort of process where we stop something,
we go into this dopamine deficit state and it feels
really bad.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So when you say withdrawals, like, what does that actually
look like? Is it that they get a little bit
more irritable or I mean, I assume it will be
different for other people as well.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, exactly, irritable, uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I feel like I'm getting a lot of urges to
engage with something, so I feel like I've got that
inner turmoil kind of going on, which is also very
much related to the next point around conflict. An addiction
has this characteristic of conflict. So I have this inner
conflict with myself. There's a part of me that wants
to keep watching porn, and there's a part of me
(09:12):
that wants to stop because I know that it's harming
me in some way, and then finally relapse.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
So people often who have an.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Addiction will make some sort of attempt to try and
reduce or stop their use completely, but because that is
so hard, we often find that people will have lapses
and relapses.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Where they go back to it.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So is there a difference between porn addiction and sex addiction.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
There is, they are two distinct kind of diagnoses. Someone
who has a sex addiction doesn't necessarily have a porn addiction,
and someone who's got a porn addiction won't necessarily have
a sex addiction. But I mean, I work a lot
with behavioral addictions in my clinical work, and what I
will often see is this kind of blurring in the
middle sometimes where people who do have a sex addiction
(10:03):
might consume higher amounts of pornography than other people would.
And sometimes people who have a pornography addiction, and when
it really becomes quite serious, they potentially start to venture
into things like getting erotic massages or not just watching
pornography but more engaging with content creators online, webcam chats,
(10:26):
et cetera. Things like that, So they sort of start
to blur into that middle ground where they don't necessarily
have sex addiction, but they are engaging in additional sexual behaviors.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
So I know, you've really unpacked a lot around addiction,
just generally when it comes to porn and sex. But
something I am curious about is what's the impact of
porn addiction on relationships.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, that's a good question, and it's a question I
actually get asked a lot, right Like, when I see
someone in the clinic who has a porn addiction. A
lot of the time, these people may very well be
in relationships, and so we have to have these conversations
about what the impact is on the relationship, not just
the individual person themselves. What we often see is that
(11:11):
there can be a sense of reduced sexual satisfaction in
the relationship. So if someone is consuming great quantities of
pornography online, and when I say large quantities, like that
could be daily use for like an hour, or it
could be literally eight to nine hours a day. Like
there really is a spectrum we're talking about as to
(11:32):
how much someone can consume. But if someone is consuming
a lot of pornography, they often then feel like their
real life sexual experiences are not quite as exciting or satisfying,
and this then becomes a problem in the relationship. The
partner can often feel that as well, right, We often
hear partners say that they feel this kind of pressure
(11:54):
or expectation to be like, you know what we see
porn stars acting like, and the reality is A, that's
just not them and B they don't necessarily want to
be that either. So there's a lot of internal pressure
that can be placed on the partner, but also this
reduced sexual satisfaction the relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That said, it doesn't have.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
To be an entirely negative thing, right, Like, pornography can
be used in relationships in positive, healthy ways, but the
key is that there's got to be good communication around
that and consent around that. Usually we find there are
difficulties when one person is consuming a lot more porn
than the other person.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And it's really good that you kind of speak to
both sides of the equation as well, like looking at
the negative impacts, but then also there's potential positive impacts
from you know, if it is coming from a place
where both people in the relationship know how to move
through it, right, absolutely, Yeah, because I mean sexy in
generally it is really vulnerable as well, and I can
(12:57):
imagine that can also be really hard as the partner
being like, oh, this is like, you know, exposing the
most vulnerable part of me, and we're not on the
same page. But I mean, that's why it's so amazing
that people come to see people like you to move
through that together.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And actually, sometimes the pathway into people getting support if
they are watching a lot of porn is that they're
experiencing some sort of sexual dysfunction or like a rectile dysfunction. Particularly,
we see this more in men than women typically, so
men will actually kind of present with some sort of
rectile dysfunction and then it's kind of discovered that excessive
pornography use might be.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
A cause of this.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I'm also really curious to know what else comes up
in your client work.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, so a few things.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So often when someone is struggling with a pornography addiction
or let's just say, using pornography too much, even if
it's not kind of a clinical addiction, I find that
there's often other things in that person's life that they
might also be doing excessively. So, particularly in young men,
I'll see this with excessive video games. Excessive video games
and excessive pornography seem to sort of go hand in
(14:02):
hand a lot of the time, and when we think
about this, it's a bit of an escape, right. Often
addictions of any sort develop as a way of a
person coping with something in life. So there's the coping element,
and then you add in conjunction what happens in the
brain with dopamine pathways and how rewarding it can be,
and those two things combined can just be this mixing
(14:25):
pot for an addiction to develop. For someone who's got
the right vulnerabilities, so we find that someone might also
have other things that they're struggling with. And the impact
on mental health I think is an important one to mention,
because people who are consuming pornography in a way that
doesn't feel good for them will often.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Feel a lot of guilt.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
They might present with low self esteem, they might present
with depression, anxiety about people finding out, like all sorts
of kind of secondary problems relating to their mood and
their mental health.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's interesting you talk about just shame generally when it
comes to sex and porn because there is a lot
of taboo around it, and I mean, I feel like
we're in a time where we are starting to talk
about it more openly, like hence why we're having this
conversation today. And then there's also other layers on top
of that, especially culturally as well, Like I know from
my South Asian lens, we don't talk about sex or
(15:22):
anything like that with our parents. Like even to date,
you know, I'm a grown adult, I still don't talk
about that stuff, you know. So you know, it's nice
that there's spaces that people can come to to be able.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
To talk about it.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, I think it's important to talk about how porn
has made a lot of women feel unsafe in intimate environments.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Absolutely, and there's a lot I can say on this.
One of the first things that comes to mind when
you say that is I watched this documentary called in
the Picture, and this was a documentary where they interviewed
a whole range of porn actors, porn producers, directors, etc.
And one of the directors is being interviewed and he
literally states, pornography nowadays has become a lot of it
(16:03):
has become very rough, right. It doesn't show consents, It
shows roughness, it shows sex strangulation that we'll talk about
in a moment.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
But what he was saying is that during the direction
of these.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Clips, if women are pulling faces that show that they're
in pain because they're literally being hurt, they will stop
the clips. They will be like, don't pull that face,
No one wants to see that. Do it again and restart.
So they will literally be directed to not show on
their face that they're in pain. WHOA, So what sort
of message does that send to anyone watching that clip?
(16:41):
To a guy, it'll be like, oh, well, she clearly
likes it. And to a woman it might be like, Oh,
she likes it, why don't I?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
So many illusions in that as well. Wow, yeah, so
you said something just before that. You've got to circle
back to around sexual strangulation.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, okay, So choking in pawn has become almost mainstream.
There's something called the Breathless campaign that's been going around
over the last year or so, and it's really all
about raising awareness as to the negative consequences that can
come from choking and sexual strangulation during pawn because it
(17:17):
is so often shown in clips. It's shown without consent,
but there's also this misconception that's come about that it's safe,
and so the Breathless campaign is all about breaking this
myth and actually bringing awareness to the fact that there
are a lot of physical dangers that come about with
(17:37):
sexual strangulation and we don't necessarily see the risks or
the negative outcomes in that moment, right someone thinks, Okay,
I wasn't unconscious if I was choked or strangled, so
I'm okay, But actually the effects can be shown weeks
months later.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Really wow.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So the impacts of the sexual strangulation could be things
like headaches, blurry vision, depression, anxiety, or just impairments to
our cognitive functioning and our brain. But also what they
find is that there can be serious injury to sort
of like our neck ariesophagus, structures of the neck, blood vessels, airways,
(18:15):
and these things don't show up immediately, that's the thing,
so people can can falsely think that it's safe when
it's really not.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
I mean I didn't even know that until now, So
I can imagine AI is bringing like a whole other
level of complexity to this.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Right. Oh, yes, we.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Could have a we could have a whole podcast episode
just on AI and porn and sex. Right, Like, we've
obviously seen the rise of deep fakes that have been
all through the news and the media and the devastating
effect that that has on victims of deep fakes as well.
But I was reading some interesting material that was on
the E Safety Commission website and it was saying, of
(18:55):
all deep fake material, right, So when we're talking deep
fake material, we're talking about AI generated material that kind
of looks real but it's not. Right, of all this
deep fake material online. Pornographic videos make up ninety eight
percent of all deep fake material online and ninety nine
(19:15):
percent of the imagery is of women and girls. So
this is a very gendered problem that we're facing.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Wow, I don't even know that either. You're dropping a
lot of a lot of staff today, right numbers.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, So when we think about this, it's it's you know,
I just can't help but think, what message is that
sending young boys, young men who.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Are watching this.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
You know, what sort of message is it's sending about
how normalized it might be to use AI porn? What
message is it's sending about consent? You know, if you're
engaging with AI porn, you're not requesting someone's consents, right,
So what sort of message does that send people about
how consent works in the real world? I think there
are so many problems with it. So at the end
(20:04):
of the day, all things considered, pornography is just an
ethical mind field.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
After the break, doctor Anastasia is going to explain what
a healthy, safe adult sexual relationship looks like with or
with that porn. So how do we actually re examine
our relationship to porn and start moving forward towards healthier intimacy.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So for any healthy sexual relationship that we might have,
whether or not we're talking about porn or not, we
need two key fundamental factors to be at play communication
and consent. And I guess consent is based on communication, right,
So we need people to feel like they can have healthy, open,
(20:51):
honest conversations with one another about their interests, their desires,
their fantasies, their likes, their dislikes.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Their boundaries, their hard nos.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Right. So if we don't have that foundation of trust
and communication and openness, it's going to be very high
hard to build a relationship where there is satisfaction when
it comes to sex.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
We hear a lot about consent, but how do we
actually do it? Like, do you have a bit of
a framework that you can give us? We love your frameworks.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Without a framework, yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Funnily enough, this is the FRI's acronym that's going to
help with consent. When I say fries, I mean like
hot chip fries, right.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
The best kind of fries yea.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So this is actually a framework that was developed by
planned parenthood, and it's all about affirmative consent. So when
we're talking about affirmative consent, we mean that a person
needs to take steps to say or do something that
indicates that they are willingly consenting to being involved in
a sexual activity. So I'll go through what the acronym
(22:00):
stands for, because I think it's a really useful way
for people to get their head around consent because, as
you said, we talk about it a lot, but.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
How and what is it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Okay, So the F in the Fry's acronym stands for
freely given. We need to be freely and willingly giving
our consent to participate in sexual activities. We don't want
to be coerced or forced into it. So it's this
idea that just like, it's not just about saying yes,
(22:29):
it's about.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Freely feeling like I can give that consent.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
The R stands for reversible, So consent is always reversible.
Just because I say yes in this moment to this
sexual activity doesn't mean I can't change my mind.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
For absolutely no reason at all.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Right, I can change my mind, there doesn't have to
be a reason for it, and I can reverse that consent.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So consent is always reversible.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And just because I said yes to doing a sexual
act last time doesn't mean I need to say yes
to it this time again.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
That's such a good one to double down on because
I feel like, I mean for women generally and I
know for me, even just just when you say yes
and then you change it to a note, I can
imagine there's a bit of guilt there, and then you
force yourself into doing something you actually didn't want to do.
So I like that this is part of the framework.
It's like just because you said it once before, like
(23:23):
you have every right to change that.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
So that's really empowering and.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
That you can just change your mind, right, There doesn't
have to need to be a justification or a reason
for it.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, so what about I.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I stands for informed. So if I'm consenting to anything,
I need to know what I'm consenting to. Otherwise it's
not consent. I need to have some sort of information
as to what I'm saying yes to or what I'm
agreeing to participate in. Right, And this is the part
where I think sometimes people get a little bit stuck
because they're like, well, what am I going to say?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Am I going to read out a list of all
the things I'd like to do with this person? Then
get the how can I be informed?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
You know, sex sort of happens naturally in a way
and we go through the motions. So this is really
where that kind of proactive checking in with one another
is really important. So is it okay if I do this?
Are you okay if we do this now? Right? So
it's not like consent happens before the sexual act starts
and then it all happens. It's an active process that
(24:22):
we come back to throughout sex.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
It's so good that you say that because even though
there's a bit of that stop start element, it's so
important because what you see in movies you don't see that.
You just see the one sex scene, right, Like, there's
no stop in starting. So, if anything, it's more realistic.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yes, So the E stands for enthusiastic, So consent should
be given with genuine desire and excitement and enthusiasm for
what someone's about to do. It's not just the absence
of a no, but we want an enthusiastic Yeah, I'm
willing to get involved in this, okay. So that's the
And then S is specific. So consent needs to be
(25:01):
clear and specific about the actions that are being agreed to.
And just because I've consented to one thing doesn't mean
I've consented to another. Just because I've consented to penetrative
sex doesn't mean I've consented to oral sex, for example,
So consent needs to be specific. So for anyone who
feels lost in the conversations around consent, hopefully this is
(25:25):
an acronym that can help break it down for you
so that if you are getting someone else's consent, or
you are wanting to willingly show your consents as well,
you can lean back on this framework for advice.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I don't know why now I'm now going to have
a visual of fries, but I think about sex sexy fries.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So I also want to add that this FRI's framework
applies to pornography. If consenting adults want to bring pornography
into the sexual space between them, then that requires consent
as well. And this is a framework that can be
followed for how to have a bit of a conversation
and how to gain consent from your sexual partner about
(26:07):
using pornography when it comes to sex.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
So, if you think that you're addicted to pawn, like
for anyone listening in what should they do about that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
There is absolutely help available.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Right My biggest recommendation is whatever guilt, embarrassment, shame you
might feel, put it to the side. Don't let it
be the barrier that stops you getting help. Doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists,
we've heard most of it. Right, It's a rare day
that someone comes in the clinic and tells me something
(26:41):
that's so shocking. And that's often what people fear. They
fear that they're going to come in and tell me
something and I'm going to be.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Like, WHOA, you're doing, what you're watching? What right? And
it's just not the case.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Like it's our job to be well across and well
equipped to deal with these kinds of difficulties. So seek
out a therapist that specializes in addictions, that does a
lot of work in addictions, maybe even pornography specifically, and
booking that.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
First consultation gets some help. There's help out there.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
There's a lot of support groups out there as well,
write twelve step type programs, peer led programs from people
who have lived experience with pornography addictions as well.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
There's definitely help out there.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So put any kind of uncomfortable feelings to the side and.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Start that process.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
After this shortbreak, we hear from a woman who's uncomfortable
with the porn habits of the guy that she's dating.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Stay with us. Bierb Barb bierby I empowering a serious crisis.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
We've reached that time in our episode where we answer
a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
This dilemma comes from Robin.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
So.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
I've been seeing someone for a little while now, and
things are great, except for one thing I just can't
stop thinking about. I've noticed he watches a lot of porn,
and while I know that's common, it kind of makes
me uncomfortable. I worry that what his watching is shaping
what he expects from me in real life. I'm not
into rough or performed of sex, and I'm scared I
(28:17):
won't be enough for him if I don't match what
he's seeing on screen. Can we still have a healthy,
connected sex life if we want such different things?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Or is this a red flag?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Oh, Robin, you are absolutely describing such common things that
I often hear in the clinic for partners who have
a partner who's watching a lot of porn. That feeling
of like, am I going to be enough? Am I
going to be able to live up to what he's
watching on the screen?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
My biggest tip for you is communication.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
What I'm hearing is a lot of fear, a lot
of worry, a lot of concern. If this is someone
that you're serious about and you can potentially see a
future with them, open up those conversations early. The earlier
you can get into this, the better. Talk to him
about how much porn he's watching, what kind of porn
he's watching, how it impacts his desire, how it impacts
(29:11):
his sex life, or how it has impacted his sex
life historically. Open that conversation up because A that will
help you perhaps deal with some of your worries right
you might find that some of the answers are not
as concerning as what you thought.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
They might be.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
But B it also gives you a platform to be
able to communicate around pornography openly and honestly. And there's
nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about someone watching porn and
perhaps watching it excessively. There's nothing wrong with communicating your
fears for what that holds for the relationship. So I
(29:47):
think first and foremost communication is really core here. And
if this does come to be a challenge that the
two of you feel like you can't quite resolve or
get past, this is where couple's therapy comes in. This
is where sort of sex therapy comes into play. Couple's
therapists can absolutely help two people navigate these sorts of
(30:08):
differences in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Good luck, Robin, You've got this, Anastasia. Can you reiterate
the main takeaways from today's episode absolutely?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
First of all, pawn is so easily accessible and it
is shaping the minds and perspectives of people old and young. Second,
pornography has the potential to become addictive and highly problematic
in someone's life. Third, a healthy sex life is grounded
in open communication and consent. And lastly, remember the Fry's
(30:44):
acronym as a way to discuss consent with others.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
If you have a burning question for us, there are
a few ways to get in touch with us. Links
are in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Naima Brown.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Our senior producer is Charlie Black. Sound design and editing
by Jacob Brown. I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Topics we discussed today.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue,
Lifeline or one eight hundred respect if you're wanting more
immediate support.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
In next week's episode, Anastasia helps us understand what trauma
really means, what PTSD looks like, and share some ways
people can get support.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Thank you so much for listening to today's But Are
You Happy?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Episode.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
We're keen to understand how you're looking after your mental
health these days. There's a survey link in the show notes.
It only takes a few minutes and you'll go in
the draw to win a one thousand dollars gift voucher.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. See
you next time.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on What's Up?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I heard that you have a porn problem? What is that?
What are you seeing me? No, that's not it doesn't
send it's not sounding me as.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
All or Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome
to But are you happy? The podcast that helps you
realize your patterns aren't just because you're a Pisces with
the Libra moon.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Porn is everywhere, and let's be honest,
watching it is super common. It's a way a lot
of people explore their sexuality. But it's not all harmless,
and today we're going to talk about some of the
less talked about effects.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of porn out there shaping
some pretty unrealistic and sometimes harmful ideas about sex and intimacy.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Right exactly, I'm going to unpack what porn actually does
to our brain chemistry and how it might be influencing
our romantic and sexual relationships, often without us even realizing.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
This is such an important conversation. And just to preface,
we're not here to shame anyone. We're talking about sex
and porn in an open, honest way because avoiding the
topic doesn't make the impact any less real. This is
a very adult conversation about the realities of porn and
its impact in our sex lives and beyond. So do
listen mindfully, let's get into it. I feel like porn
(01:50):
is so accessible to really anyone, even kids, right.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Oh, absolutely to anyone, and especially kids.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Right.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
And it's funny you bring up kids right at the start,
because I was doing some research and reading that apparently
porn is now one of the biggest sexual educators that
children have. Research says that about half of boys by
the time they reach thirteen, they've seen porn, and for girls,
(02:18):
half have seen porn by the age of fifteen.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Wow, this is so young. That is very young.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And if you think about the type of pornography they
have access to, right, it's anything in everything. You can
access pornography websites by just clicking the button that says yep,
I'm over the age of eighteen.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
There's no real barriers in place, and if.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
We think back years ago, you know, we didn't have
access to the internet like we do these days. You'd
have to take a long time to download a video
or something. Nowadays, our kids have access to pornography in
so many different, quick, easy accessible ways.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's really alarming when you break it down like that
as well, So at that age, what's going on with
their brain.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
So a couple of things about the adolescent brain, right,
it's still very much developing, and two key things to
know about the developing adolescent brain. First of all, it
is highly susceptible to emotions and impulses. Right, So, the
limbic system in the brain, which is kind of an
(03:22):
older part of the brain which is responsible more so
for emotions and impulses, that's very well developed. But the
prefrontal cortex in the brain that helps us regulate ourselves
is not so well developed. So this is why we
see teens who are quite impulsive and struggle to sort
of make responsible decisions and regulate themselves. But the other
(03:42):
key thing about the developing brain is that it's highly plastic.
And when I say plastic, I mean it's very susceptible
to changes. It's very susceptible to the information that we
put into the brain, and this has pros and cons right,
brilliant for learning. It's why kids can learn things so
much faster than adults can.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It's very susceptible to what we put in. It learns
very quickly. But if we give it the wrong sorts
of inputs or unhealthy inputs like pornography, then it's going
to be wired to understand those messages and not healthier messages.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So what about the adult brain, how is that different
from the adolescent brain.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
Yeah, so for both teens and adults. What happens in
the brain when we watch pornography or we have sex, right,
anything that's got that sexual nature to it is I'm
going to say my favorite word, dopamine is released. Right,
and again, from an evolutionary perspective, we needed dope mean
to be released during sexual interactions because this resulted in
(04:45):
survival of the species. We needed people to have sex,
We needed that to be a pleasurable and rewarding experience
because we needed people and humans to procreate the same
Dopamine pathways and reward pathways activated in the brain when
people watch pornography, and what we know about these reward
pathways in the brain is that over time they can
(05:07):
somewhat become desensitized.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
So what that.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Means is that we need more of something to get
that same feeling of pleasure. So that might be that
we need more pornography, or we need more intense sort
of or stimulating pornography to be viewed in order to
get that same pleasurable feeling from it.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
So then, in a way, that would really impact sex
in general too, because if they're consuming all this porn
that's releasing all this high dopamine, that would impact naturally
your sex life.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yes, absolutely, And if we put that back in the
context of kids, right, if children are watching porn before
they've ever even had a sexual experience, right, when we
think about what's happening in the brain, they're getting massive
dopamine activation from watching potentially some pretty intense pornographic scenes.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
Right when they then go and have.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Much less intense experiences in real life, there's a real
chance that that's not going to feel as fulfilling or
satisfying or as exciting or pleasurable as what they've seen
on the videos online.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
There was something you were talking about before around dopamine
and addiction, which I know is definitely up your ali.
So is there such a thing called a porn addiction?
Is that a clinical definition?
Speaker 2 (06:27):
So people can absolutely become addicted to pornography. It's not
yet technically kind of recognized in our diagnostic manuals as
a standalone diagnosis, okay, but between sort of clinicians and researchers,
we have an understanding that yes, this is a thing
that certainly does exist. So if I actually just break
down what an addiction is, because there are key features
(06:51):
of addictions that go across all sorts of addictions, whether
it's alcohol, whether it's porn, whether it's gambling, there are
some key features and I'll refer to the component's model
of addiction by Professor Mark Griffiths. So what we see
with any kind of addiction is that there's a salience
and a preoccupation with the addictive behavior. So in the
(07:12):
context of pornography, a person will find that they're thinking
about consuming porn very often. It's on their mind a lot.
They might be at work and it's popping into their mind.
There's this kind of mental preoccupation with it. We also
see mood modification. So when I engage with the addictive
behavior like pornography, I feel different in some way. I
(07:35):
use it in a way that helps me regulate myself.
Either it makes me feel excited, either it's a form
of escape, it makes me feel calmer, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
There's mood modification, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
We also find that people build a tolerance with an addiction.
So maybe, as I was saying with porn before, I
could sort of watch certain types of porn, but now
I feel like I need to watch more intense porn
or greater amounts of porn. Or maybe I transition from
watching porn to interacting with sex workers online. Right, so
(08:08):
I'm now kind of on live chat's talk to people.
So there's this kind of tolerance that builds that makes
me need or want more of it. We also see withdrawals,
So if someone tries to stop doing something like watching
porn when they have had some sort of addiction to it,
they will experience these withdrawal symptoms. And withdrawals are not
(08:29):
just relating to drugs and alcohol chemically, but our body
goes through a similar sort of process where we stop something,
we go into this dopamine deficit state and it feels
really bad.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
So when you say withdrawals, like, what does that actually
look like? Is it that they get a little bit
more irritable or I mean, I assume it will be
different for other people as well.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yes, exactly, irritable, uncomfortable.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I feel like I'm getting a lot of urges to
engage with something, so I feel like I've got that
inner turmoil kind of going on, which is also very
much related to the next point around conflict. An addiction
has this characteristic of conflict. So I have this inner
conflict with myself. There's a part of me that wants
to keep watching porn, and there's a part of me
(09:12):
that wants to stop because I know that it's harming
me in some way, and then finally relapse.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
So people often who have an.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Addiction will make some sort of attempt to try and
reduce or stop their use completely, but because that is
so hard, we often find that people will have lapses
and relapses.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Where they go back to it.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
So is there a difference between porn addiction and sex addiction.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
There is, they are two distinct kind of diagnoses. Someone
who has a sex addiction doesn't necessarily have a porn addiction,
and someone who's got a porn addiction won't necessarily have
a sex addiction. But I mean, I work a lot
with behavioral addictions in my clinical work, and what I
will often see is this kind of blurring in the
middle sometimes where people who do have a sex addiction
(10:03):
might consume higher amounts of pornography than other people would.
And sometimes people who have a pornography addiction, and when
it really becomes quite serious, they potentially start to venture
into things like getting erotic massages or not just watching
pornography but more engaging with content creators online, webcam chats,
(10:26):
et cetera. Things like that, So they sort of start
to blur into that middle ground where they don't necessarily
have sex addiction, but they are engaging in additional sexual behaviors.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
So I know, you've really unpacked a lot around addiction,
just generally when it comes to porn and sex. But
something I am curious about is what's the impact of
porn addiction on relationships.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, that's a good question, and it's a question I
actually get asked a lot, right Like, when I see
someone in the clinic who has a porn addiction. A
lot of the time, these people may very well be
in relationships, and so we have to have these conversations
about what the impact is on the relationship, not just
the individual person themselves. What we often see is that
(11:11):
there can be a sense of reduced sexual satisfaction in
the relationship. So if someone is consuming great quantities of
pornography online, and when I say large quantities, like that
could be daily use for like an hour, or it
could be literally eight to nine hours a day. Like
there really is a spectrum we're talking about as to
(11:32):
how much someone can consume. But if someone is consuming
a lot of pornography, they often then feel like their
real life sexual experiences are not quite as exciting or satisfying,
and this then becomes a problem in the relationship. The
partner can often feel that as well, right, We often
hear partners say that they feel this kind of pressure
(11:54):
or expectation to be like, you know what we see
porn stars acting like, and the reality is A, that's
just not them and B they don't necessarily want to
be that either. So there's a lot of internal pressure
that can be placed on the partner, but also this
reduced sexual satisfaction the relationship.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That said, it doesn't have.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
To be an entirely negative thing, right, Like, pornography can
be used in relationships in positive, healthy ways, but the
key is that there's got to be good communication around
that and consent around that. Usually we find there are
difficulties when one person is consuming a lot more porn
than the other person.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
And it's really good that you kind of speak to
both sides of the equation as well, like looking at
the negative impacts, but then also there's potential positive impacts
from you know, if it is coming from a place
where both people in the relationship know how to move
through it, right, absolutely, Yeah, because I mean sexy in
generally it is really vulnerable as well, and I can
(12:57):
imagine that can also be really hard as the partner
being like, oh, this is like, you know, exposing the
most vulnerable part of me, and we're not on the
same page. But I mean, that's why it's so amazing
that people come to see people like you to move
through that together.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And actually, sometimes the pathway into people getting support if
they are watching a lot of porn is that they're
experiencing some sort of sexual dysfunction or like a rectile dysfunction. Particularly,
we see this more in men than women typically, so
men will actually kind of present with some sort of
rectile dysfunction and then it's kind of discovered that excessive
pornography use might be.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
A cause of this.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I'm also really curious to know what else comes up
in your client work.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Yeah, so a few things.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So often when someone is struggling with a pornography addiction
or let's just say, using pornography too much, even if
it's not kind of a clinical addiction, I find that
there's often other things in that person's life that they
might also be doing excessively. So, particularly in young men,
I'll see this with excessive video games. Excessive video games
and excessive pornography seem to sort of go hand in
(14:02):
hand a lot of the time, and when we think
about this, it's a bit of an escape, right. Often
addictions of any sort develop as a way of a
person coping with something in life. So there's the coping element,
and then you add in conjunction what happens in the
brain with dopamine pathways and how rewarding it can be,
and those two things combined can just be this mixing
(14:25):
pot for an addiction to develop. For someone who's got
the right vulnerabilities, so we find that someone might also
have other things that they're struggling with. And the impact
on mental health I think is an important one to mention,
because people who are consuming pornography in a way that
doesn't feel good for them will often.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Feel a lot of guilt.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
They might present with low self esteem, they might present
with depression, anxiety about people finding out, like all sorts
of kind of secondary problems relating to their mood and
their mental health.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
It's interesting you talk about just shame generally when it
comes to sex and porn because there is a lot
of taboo around it, and I mean, I feel like
we're in a time where we are starting to talk
about it more openly, like hence why we're having this
conversation today. And then there's also other layers on top
of that, especially culturally as well, Like I know from
my South Asian lens, we don't talk about sex or
(15:22):
anything like that with our parents. Like even to date,
you know, I'm a grown adult, I still don't talk
about that stuff, you know. So you know, it's nice
that there's spaces that people can come to to be able.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
To talk about it.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Yeah, I think it's important to talk about how porn
has made a lot of women feel unsafe in intimate environments.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Absolutely, and there's a lot I can say on this.
One of the first things that comes to mind when
you say that is I watched this documentary called in
the Picture, and this was a documentary where they interviewed
a whole range of porn actors, porn producers, directors, etc.
And one of the directors is being interviewed and he
literally states, pornography nowadays has become a lot of it
(16:03):
has become very rough, right. It doesn't show consents, It
shows roughness, it shows sex strangulation that we'll talk about
in a moment.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
But what he was saying is that during the direction
of these.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Clips, if women are pulling faces that show that they're
in pain because they're literally being hurt, they will stop
the clips. They will be like, don't pull that face,
No one wants to see that. Do it again and restart.
So they will literally be directed to not show on
their face that they're in pain. WHOA, So what sort
of message does that send to anyone watching that clip?
(16:41):
To a guy, it'll be like, oh, well, she clearly
likes it. And to a woman it might be like, Oh,
she likes it, why don't I?
Speaker 1 (16:48):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (16:49):
So many illusions in that as well. Wow, yeah, so
you said something just before that. You've got to circle
back to around sexual strangulation.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, okay, So choking in pawn has become almost mainstream.
There's something called the Breathless campaign that's been going around
over the last year or so, and it's really all
about raising awareness as to the negative consequences that can
come from choking and sexual strangulation during pawn because it
(17:17):
is so often shown in clips. It's shown without consent,
but there's also this misconception that's come about that it's safe,
and so the Breathless campaign is all about breaking this
myth and actually bringing awareness to the fact that there
are a lot of physical dangers that come about with
(17:37):
sexual strangulation and we don't necessarily see the risks or
the negative outcomes in that moment, right someone thinks, Okay,
I wasn't unconscious if I was choked or strangled, so
I'm okay, But actually the effects can be shown weeks
months later.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Really wow.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
So the impacts of the sexual strangulation could be things
like headaches, blurry vision, depression, anxiety, or just impairments to
our cognitive functioning and our brain. But also what they
find is that there can be serious injury to sort
of like our neck ariesophagus, structures of the neck, blood vessels, airways,
(18:15):
and these things don't show up immediately, that's the thing,
so people can can falsely think that it's safe when
it's really not.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
I mean I didn't even know that until now, So
I can imagine AI is bringing like a whole other
level of complexity to this.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
Right. Oh, yes, we.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Could have a we could have a whole podcast episode
just on AI and porn and sex. Right, Like, we've
obviously seen the rise of deep fakes that have been
all through the news and the media and the devastating
effect that that has on victims of deep fakes as well.
But I was reading some interesting material that was on
the E Safety Commission website and it was saying, of
(18:55):
all deep fake material, right, So when we're talking deep
fake material, we're talking about AI generated material that kind
of looks real but it's not. Right, of all this
deep fake material online. Pornographic videos make up ninety eight
percent of all deep fake material online and ninety nine
(19:15):
percent of the imagery is of women and girls. So
this is a very gendered problem that we're facing.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Wow, I don't even know that either. You're dropping a
lot of a lot of staff today, right numbers.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Yeah, So when we think about this, it's it's you know,
I just can't help but think, what message is that
sending young boys, young men who.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Are watching this.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
You know, what sort of message is it's sending about
how normalized it might be to use AI porn? What
message is it's sending about consent? You know, if you're
engaging with AI porn, you're not requesting someone's consents, right,
So what sort of message does that send people about
how consent works in the real world? I think there
are so many problems with it. So at the end
(20:04):
of the day, all things considered, pornography is just an
ethical mind field.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
After the break, doctor Anastasia is going to explain what
a healthy, safe adult sexual relationship looks like with or
with that porn. So how do we actually re examine
our relationship to porn and start moving forward towards healthier intimacy.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
So for any healthy sexual relationship that we might have,
whether or not we're talking about porn or not, we
need two key fundamental factors to be at play communication
and consent. And I guess consent is based on communication, right,
So we need people to feel like they can have healthy, open,
(20:51):
honest conversations with one another about their interests, their desires,
their fantasies, their likes, their dislikes.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Their boundaries, their hard nos.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Right. So if we don't have that foundation of trust
and communication and openness, it's going to be very high
hard to build a relationship where there is satisfaction when
it comes to sex.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
We hear a lot about consent, but how do we
actually do it? Like, do you have a bit of
a framework that you can give us? We love your frameworks.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Without a framework, yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Funnily enough, this is the FRI's acronym that's going to
help with consent. When I say fries, I mean like
hot chip fries, right.
Speaker 1 (21:37):
The best kind of fries yea.
Speaker 2 (21:40):
So this is actually a framework that was developed by
planned parenthood, and it's all about affirmative consent. So when
we're talking about affirmative consent, we mean that a person
needs to take steps to say or do something that
indicates that they are willingly consenting to being involved in
a sexual activity. So I'll go through what the acronym
(22:00):
stands for, because I think it's a really useful way
for people to get their head around consent because, as
you said, we talk about it a lot, but.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
How and what is it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Okay, So the F in the Fry's acronym stands for
freely given. We need to be freely and willingly giving
our consent to participate in sexual activities. We don't want
to be coerced or forced into it. So it's this
idea that just like, it's not just about saying yes,
(22:29):
it's about.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Freely feeling like I can give that consent.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
The R stands for reversible, So consent is always reversible.
Just because I say yes in this moment to this
sexual activity doesn't mean I can't change my mind.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
For absolutely no reason at all.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Right, I can change my mind, there doesn't have to
be a reason for it, and I can reverse that consent.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
So consent is always reversible.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
And just because I said yes to doing a sexual
act last time doesn't mean I need to say yes
to it this time again.
Speaker 3 (23:02):
That's such a good one to double down on because
I feel like, I mean for women generally and I
know for me, even just just when you say yes
and then you change it to a note, I can
imagine there's a bit of guilt there, and then you
force yourself into doing something you actually didn't want to do.
So I like that this is part of the framework.
It's like just because you said it once before, like
(23:23):
you have every right to change that.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
So that's really empowering and.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
That you can just change your mind, right, There doesn't
have to need to be a justification or a reason
for it.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Yeah, so what about I.
Speaker 2 (23:33):
I stands for informed. So if I'm consenting to anything,
I need to know what I'm consenting to. Otherwise it's
not consent. I need to have some sort of information
as to what I'm saying yes to or what I'm
agreeing to participate in. Right, And this is the part
where I think sometimes people get a little bit stuck
because they're like, well, what am I going to say?
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Like?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Am I going to read out a list of all
the things I'd like to do with this person? Then
get the how can I be informed?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
You know, sex sort of happens naturally in a way
and we go through the motions. So this is really
where that kind of proactive checking in with one another
is really important. So is it okay if I do this?
Are you okay if we do this now? Right? So
it's not like consent happens before the sexual act starts
and then it all happens. It's an active process that
(24:22):
we come back to throughout sex.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
It's so good that you say that because even though
there's a bit of that stop start element, it's so
important because what you see in movies you don't see that.
You just see the one sex scene, right, Like, there's
no stop in starting. So, if anything, it's more realistic.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (24:40):
Yes, So the E stands for enthusiastic, So consent should
be given with genuine desire and excitement and enthusiasm for
what someone's about to do. It's not just the absence
of a no, but we want an enthusiastic Yeah, I'm
willing to get involved in this, okay. So that's the
And then S is specific. So consent needs to be
(25:01):
clear and specific about the actions that are being agreed to.
And just because I've consented to one thing doesn't mean
I've consented to another. Just because I've consented to penetrative
sex doesn't mean I've consented to oral sex, for example,
So consent needs to be specific. So for anyone who
feels lost in the conversations around consent, hopefully this is
(25:25):
an acronym that can help break it down for you
so that if you are getting someone else's consent, or
you are wanting to willingly show your consents as well,
you can lean back on this framework for advice.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
I don't know why now I'm now going to have
a visual of fries, but I think about sex sexy fries.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
So I also want to add that this FRI's framework
applies to pornography. If consenting adults want to bring pornography
into the sexual space between them, then that requires consent
as well. And this is a framework that can be
followed for how to have a bit of a conversation
and how to gain consent from your sexual partner about
(26:07):
using pornography when it comes to sex.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
So, if you think that you're addicted to pawn, like
for anyone listening in what should they do about that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
There is absolutely help available.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Right My biggest recommendation is whatever guilt, embarrassment, shame you
might feel, put it to the side. Don't let it
be the barrier that stops you getting help. Doctors, psychologists, psychiatrists,
we've heard most of it. Right, It's a rare day
that someone comes in the clinic and tells me something
(26:41):
that's so shocking. And that's often what people fear. They
fear that they're going to come in and tell me
something and I'm going to be.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Like, WHOA, you're doing, what you're watching? What right? And
it's just not the case.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Like it's our job to be well across and well
equipped to deal with these kinds of difficulties. So seek
out a therapist that specializes in addictions, that does a
lot of work in addictions, maybe even pornography specifically, and
booking that.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
First consultation gets some help. There's help out there.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
There's a lot of support groups out there as well,
write twelve step type programs, peer led programs from people
who have lived experience with pornography addictions as well.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
There's definitely help out there.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
So put any kind of uncomfortable feelings to the side and.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Start that process.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
After this shortbreak, we hear from a woman who's uncomfortable
with the porn habits of the guy that she's dating.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Stay with us. Bierb Barb bierby I empowering a serious crisis.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
We've reached that time in our episode where we answer
a question or dilemma from one of you, our listeners.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
This dilemma comes from Robin.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
So.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
I've been seeing someone for a little while now, and
things are great, except for one thing I just can't
stop thinking about. I've noticed he watches a lot of porn,
and while I know that's common, it kind of makes
me uncomfortable. I worry that what his watching is shaping
what he expects from me in real life. I'm not
into rough or performed of sex, and I'm scared I
(28:17):
won't be enough for him if I don't match what
he's seeing on screen. Can we still have a healthy,
connected sex life if we want such different things?
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Or is this a red flag?
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Oh, Robin, you are absolutely describing such common things that
I often hear in the clinic for partners who have
a partner who's watching a lot of porn. That feeling
of like, am I going to be enough? Am I
going to be able to live up to what he's
watching on the screen?
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Right?
Speaker 1 (28:45):
My biggest tip for you is communication.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
What I'm hearing is a lot of fear, a lot
of worry, a lot of concern. If this is someone
that you're serious about and you can potentially see a
future with them, open up those conversations early. The earlier
you can get into this, the better. Talk to him
about how much porn he's watching, what kind of porn
he's watching, how it impacts his desire, how it impacts
(29:11):
his sex life, or how it has impacted his sex
life historically. Open that conversation up because A that will
help you perhaps deal with some of your worries right
you might find that some of the answers are not
as concerning as what you thought.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
They might be.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
But B it also gives you a platform to be
able to communicate around pornography openly and honestly. And there's
nothing wrong with feeling uncomfortable about someone watching porn and
perhaps watching it excessively. There's nothing wrong with communicating your
fears for what that holds for the relationship. So I
(29:47):
think first and foremost communication is really core here. And
if this does come to be a challenge that the
two of you feel like you can't quite resolve or
get past, this is where couple's therapy comes in. This
is where sort of sex therapy comes into play. Couple's
therapists can absolutely help two people navigate these sorts of
(30:08):
differences in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Good luck, Robin, You've got this, Anastasia. Can you reiterate
the main takeaways from today's episode absolutely?
Speaker 2 (30:22):
First of all, pawn is so easily accessible and it
is shaping the minds and perspectives of people old and young. Second,
pornography has the potential to become addictive and highly problematic
in someone's life. Third, a healthy sex life is grounded
in open communication and consent. And lastly, remember the Fry's
(30:44):
acronym as a way to discuss consent with others.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
If you have a burning question for us, there are
a few ways to get in touch with us. Links
are in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy? Is Naima Brown.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
Our senior producer is Charlie Black. Sound design and editing
by Jacob Brown. I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Topics we discussed today.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
You can also reach out to organizations like Beyond Blue,
Lifeline or one eight hundred respect if you're wanting more
immediate support.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
In next week's episode, Anastasia helps us understand what trauma
really means, what PTSD looks like, and share some ways
people can get support.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Thank you so much for listening to today's But Are
You Happy?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Episode.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
We're keen to understand how you're looking after your mental
health these days. There's a survey link in the show notes.
It only takes a few minutes and you'll go in
the draw to win a one thousand dollars gift voucher.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
We'd love to hear from you. Thanks for listening. See
you next time.
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