June 13, 2025 • 28 mins
Have you ever ended a relationship, spent some time single, then started dating someone new, only to realise… you’re basically dating your ex all over again? In this episode of But Are You Happy, clinical psychologist Dr. Anastasia Hronis shares some uncomfortable truths about why we tend to fall into the same toxic relationship patterns, often driven by our attachment styles. You’ll also learn:
- What the four attachment styles really mean
- How to identify your own attachment style
- How to recognise red flags and develop self-awareness
- What defines a healthy relationship (and how to know what you want)
- Why we sometimes push away healthy love without realising it
If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Both services are available 24/7 for free, confidential mental health support.
Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Our studio is styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
On for Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome
to But Are You Happy? Because self care is more
than overprize candles?
Speaker 4 (00:31):
And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus, the clinical psychologist passionate about happiness.
Have you ever ended a relationship, been single for a while,
started a new relationship, only to realize that you're basically
dating your ex?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Oh so many of my girlfriends are in this cycle
as we speak.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Well, this is the episode for them because there's a
reason we keep dating the wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Person and hopefully there's ways we can break out of
this cycle.
Speaker 5 (00:59):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
It is one of the most important cycles to break
in life.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I have a million questions. Let's get straight into it, Okay, Anasthasia,
Let's just cut to the chase. Why do we keep
dating the wrong person?
Speaker 4 (01:19):
To answer that, I have to give you a little
bit of psych one oh one. So we're going to
talk about attachment styles, because our attachment style very much
influences who were drawn to, who we date and who
we might end up in a relationship with So what
is an attachment style to start off with?
Speaker 5 (01:36):
Our attachment style is essentially.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
A pattern of how we emotionally bond with other people.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
So it's this pattern of.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
How we can have emotional intimacy with others while also
maintaining our own sense of independence and identity in a relationship. Now,
our attachment style is relevant for emotionally close relationships. So
my attachment style doesn't necessarily play out when it comes
to how I interact with a barista who's making my coffee,
(02:07):
or how I might interact with a colt work that
I don't really have.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
Much to do with.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
We're really talking about emotionally close relationships our good friends,
our siblings, our families, our partners, etc.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, so there's four main attachment styles, right.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
So we've got our secure attachment, which is ultimately what
we're aiming for in life. We've got an anxious attachment style,
there's an avoidant attachment style, and then there's a disorganized
attachment style. So I'll go through each of them and
do a little bit of an explainer. As I explain
these attachment styles, I want you to think of closeness
(02:47):
and distance in a relationship because they all relate to
how emotionally close and how emotionally distant we can be
from someone else.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Is it also really important to not bring judgment because
I think it's very easy to be like, oh, anxious
is bad, and then you know, and then that kind
of weighs on us.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yes, definitely have an open mind about what our attachment
style might be and the attachment style of other people
that we know as well.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
So if we.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Start without secure attachment, this is where we feel comfortable
having both closeness and distance in a relationship. So if
I have a secure attachment with my partner, I feel
comfortable and okay when we have those emotionally close intimate moments.
I feel okay with us sharing emotions with one another,
(03:35):
being vulnerable with one another. And I also feel comfortable
when there's that emotional distance when we need physical and
emotional time.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Apart from one another.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
So that's what we'd look at as a secure attachment relationship.
And if I can give you an example, there's something
called circle of security training, which is what often young
and new moms will do to help them learn how
to bond with their child And one of the best
visuals I have of what a secure attachment looks like
is where a mum and her little baby are in
(04:08):
a room together and the baby kind of starts to
crawl off, and you know, inspect something in the room,
looks at some sort of toy, and it kind of
goes this certain distance away from mum. It then kind
of turns around, looks back at mum. Mum gives the
kind of nod of yep, you're good, everything's okay, and
then it keeps playing and eventually.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
It comes back.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
Right.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
This is this idea of secure attachment.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I can go away from the person I have the
relationship with, I can feel comfortable being away, and then
I can comfortably come back as well.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So essentially it's finding the relationship and the balance between
being independent but also intimate.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, so that's our secure attachment. Then we'll talk about
our anxious attachment style. Now, this is essentially an attachment
style where we feel uncomfortable having emotional.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Space in a relationship. We want to be close.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
We crave the closeness, and sometimes we can crave it
a little bit too much. So this might present as
someone who is quite clinging in a relationship. To put
it simply right, there's someone who wants to constantly be
in contact with.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
The other person.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
If they don't hear back from them, they become really anxious,
they become really worried, They start to, you know, call
them repeatedly. So there's a discomfort with that space in relationships.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
It does remind me of one of my friends, and
let's just call her Lucy. Lucy, I would say, has
this anxious attachment style and is quite clinging to her partner.
And when she messages her partner he doesn't get back
to her. There's a freak out. She freaks out, she
thinks there's something wrong, he's going to break up with her,
and it's just she really spirals. So in a way,
(05:52):
would you say that that's a pattern of an anxious
attachment style.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Absolutely, And unfortunately what can happen is the more anxious
someone behaves in a relationship, the more the other person
might actually step away from them because it feels quite
overwhelming to be on the receiving end of So while
that person, like your friend Lucy, is craving the closeness,
it can actually have the opposite effect. In a relationship
(06:17):
where someone steps further away from them.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, so it's interesting because they want intimacy because they're
scared of being alone. And then those behaviors are acting
out like the partner's stepping away and she doesn't understand.
So what we think is helping is actually making it
worse without realizing absolutely.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
And that can be amplified if someone who has an
anxious attachment style partners up with someone who has an
avoidant attachment style. Right, So, the avoidant attachment style is
almost the opposite of the anxious. It's someone who has
discomforted with emotional closeness. It's the person who always feels
(06:56):
like emotionally they're in arm's length away and constantly emotionally
just out of reach, like we can never quite reach them.
And what we sometimes find is when someone who's anxious
pairs with someone who's avoidant, there can almost be this
cat and mouse where the anxious person does their anxious
stuff understandably and the avoidant person keeps stepping further and
further away.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Okay, so those are the three. What about the fourth
attachment style?
Speaker 4 (07:21):
So the last one is what we call disorganized attachment,
and this is essentially a combination of the anxious and
the avoidance styles. This is where someone has unfortunately discomfort
with both closeness.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
And distance done where me.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Yeah, And for the person who is disorganized in their
attachment style, it really can feel uncomfortable but quite chaotic.
It's like this constant push pull feeling, and that person
will feel it in themselves and a person they're in
a relationship with will also feel it from them as well.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
So you've talked about the patterns of attachment style, but
where does it all come from?
Speaker 5 (07:59):
Good question.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
A lot of our attachment patterns come from early childhood,
so they are very much influenced by our family, our
early life experiences, any caregivers that we had in our lives,
or it doesn't have to just be parents, it could
be grandparents or aunties or anyone else who was involved
in sort of raising us. Our attachment styles are very
(08:23):
much influenced and modeled by how they related to us
when we were kids. In addition to that, our attachment
style can also be influenced by major disruptions in attachment. So,
for example, if someone has a parent who suddenly dies
when they're a child, or who suddenly gets up and
(08:46):
leaves the family and goes to another country and they
never see them again. Right, These kind of experiences of
abandonment can absolutely influence how comfortable or uncomfortable people then
feel in their subsequent relationships in life.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So with these attachment styles, can you change them? Or
is it kind of like this is your stamp you're
anxiously attached in like for us no matter what relationsh yeah,
this is it, you know, can you actually change it?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
You can absolutely change it. We all sit somewhere on
a spectrum, right, so we may always be a little
more anxious generally in terms of our temperament in terms
of our attachment. That's fine, But we definitely can change
our attachment.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
Patterns with other people.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
So the first part, as with anything, is to really
start to become aware of where we might sit in
that spectrum of attachment. Do we feel pretty secure or
are we a little bit more avoidance or more anxious
or maybe a combination of both. So the first part
to be able to change anything is always the awareness.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So our attachment styles the foundation of why we have
relationship patterns, I.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Would say largely, there's always other factors that can come
into players to why we might be drawn to certain people,
but our attachment style is fundamental to how we relate
to anyone, not just sort of romantic relationships, but anyone
in our life. But we're definitely aiming for that sort
of more secure attachment with most of the people that
we interact with. And as I'm saying that, I'm actually
(10:16):
thinking of you as shining because you've been.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
With YO for what like f fifteen years?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Fifteen years?
Speaker 7 (10:21):
My gosh, okay, so it's been a while. Maybe I'm
going to turn it to you. You tell us, like,
what is it that makes a fifteen year relationship work?
Like what's your inside around your attachment style with Yo?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
This is a great question. I'm in the hot seat.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
So I feel like with YO and I being together
for so long, I think what's at the bottom of
it is the trust and safety, but also being able
to navigate conflict and having the ability to communicate. So,
you know, being in a secure relationship doesn't mean that
we don't have disagreements. We definitely do, and I think
(10:58):
actually disagreements are really healthy in relationships because if you
morph into the other person, you lose your you know, independence,
which we were talking to before when you were outlining
the behaviors Yo and I when we have disagreements, we're
able to sit there and be able to listen to
each other, validate their perspective, but also not overriding the
(11:19):
other person's perspective. And then it's kind of this dance
of you could say, negotiation but also hearing each other.
Speaker 5 (11:27):
What's of green flags is what I hear?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Green flags?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, if you're listening, well done, you did it. Okay,
tell me about green flags.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Green flags is what we want to look for.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
I love that in like, you know, pop culture today,
we've labeled them red flags and green flags, but you know,
they're nice ways of summarizing things that are important to
look for in a relationship and in a partner, and
things that we ideally don't want in a.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Relationship as well.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
So green flags, I mean, if I come back to
what you were saying about your relationship with the trust
and the safety, like that emotional safety, to feel like
I can be myself, I can be authentic, I can
be vulnerable and share myself and my emotional experiences with
someone else and know that that's going to be received.
Doesn't mean they have to agree with it, but they
(12:13):
can hold space for it, big green flags right there,
open communication, the ability to disagree.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
We're not always going to agree in relationships, as you've
just pointed out fifteen years.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Probably a few disagreements along the way, of course, but
to be able to do that is so important.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I know that a disagreement isn't going to mean necessarily
the end of a relationship. That we can have tension
within a bigger picture of secure attachment in a relationship.
So lots of green flags, of course, having that mutual
respect for one another, respect for independent identity as well
as respect for one another's opinions as well.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So what about the other side, What about red flags?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
So red flags, red flags mean different things for different people, right,
So what might be a red flag for me might
be different to you. But if we talk about some
sort of evidence based, researched firm red flags, I would
say they're like, obviously abuse in any form. We never
want to tolerate any sort of abuse, things like excessive
(13:17):
jealousy or excessive secrecy. Now, I mean these things will
sometimes come up in small doses in relationships and that
can be okay, But when we are seeing it play
out excessively, that's a red flag, hangar management issues or
any sort of controlling behaviors we might see from the
other person. And then other things like someone gaslighting us,
(13:39):
someone love bombing us. So we love bombing has done
the rounds and socials lately. I've seen quite a few
things online about it.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
But really this.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Notion of when someone comes in too strong, too early,
it's actually not a great indicator of how they're feeling
towards us and how the relationship might progress.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So with this green flag red flag system, where does
attraction come into this, Like, how does it impact that?
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Gosh, it can impact it in so many ways. It
can make us blind to red flags. Sure, but everything
in moderation. I think this is going to be one
of my catchphrases for this podcast is everything in moderation. Yes,
we want to be looking out for the red flags
and the green flags, and that's important. We don't want
to overdo it though, right, We don't want to just
be there with the clipboard like ticking off in the
(14:27):
two columns what someone's sort.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Of matching up with.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
But on the flip side, we also don't want to
go for just like ten out of ten pure chemistry,
fire and spice.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
You know that that's also not what we're looking for.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
And actually, what we often find is that when someone
does meet another person, if they're dating, and they do
feel that like ten out of ten draw to them,
that's often not a good sign. Let's aim for, like, yeah,
we want to aim for like that seven out of ten,
maybe an eight out of ten kind of fire and passion.
(15:01):
When we feel that ten out of ten, it's often
a sign that something in us is being activated, and
not necessarily in a good way. So if I I'm
an anxiously attached person and I meet someone who's kind
of a little bit on the avoidant end, I might.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Feel that fire, right. That's why we.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Often see anxious and avoidant people in relationships together, which
can end up with really some chaos in the relationship.
So be mindful of the ten out of ten passion
that you feel, and really check in with yourself around
why you're feeling so drawn to this person. Often it's
the case that it's familiar patterns being brought up and activated,
(15:42):
and because they're familiar, they feel good.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
They're known to us, but they're not necessarily healthy for us.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
After this short break.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Doctor Anastasia is going to teach you how to understand
what your relationship cycle is and exactly how to break it. Okay, Anastasia,
we've talked about attachment styles, red flags and green flags
and all the reasons why we date the wrong people.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So what do we actually do it? How do we
get off this train?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
So I say that one of the things we all
need to know as women, as people in the world,
we need to know ourselves right before we start looking
for the green flags and the red flags and the
beige flags and whatever colored flags we want to see
in someone else, Let's first look at ourselves, right. We
need to have a solid understanding of who we are
and how we show up in the world and in
(16:34):
relation to other people. So I think it is so
important for us to spend that time doing some self reflection.
This can happen independently, it can happen through a process
of seeing a therapist, but it's important to spend that
time reflecting. So one of the first things I recommend
(16:54):
anyone to do, if you're dating, if you're single, if
you're in a relationship.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Is reflect on yourself. It's all well and good for
us to talk about the red flags, the green flags,
the big flags, any colored flags.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
It doesn't matter what color they are. But we need
to first look in words at ourselves. So the first
part of being able to successfully date and find a
partner that will be a good match for us is
to do that in a reflective work, and then from
that point on we can figure out who might be
a good match for us based on what our attachment
(17:28):
style is, what our values are, and what we want
in life.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So what are the kind of questions we should be
asking ourselves.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
We want to try to understand our attachment style, our
love language, and how we express and receive love in
a relationship. So we might ask ourselves questions like, how
do I show up in a relationship?
Speaker 5 (17:48):
Who am I?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
What parts of my identity come forward when I'm in
a relationship? What's this like when I'm with my family?
What part of myself shows up with my family? What
about with my friends? What about in past relationships? Who
was I in past relationships? How did I show love?
Speaker 5 (18:06):
How did I.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Feel love in a relationship? But also what's my model
for a relationship? Being like, you know, how did my
parents relate to one another? How was love and care
and romance expressed in the household and in my family.
And what did I learn from that? You know, what
did I observe as a kid growing up watching my
(18:29):
parents or my family interact with one another and with me.
So these are pretty big questions, right I don't expect
people to have answers to these overnight or sit down
and you know, suddenly write out all the answers to these.
They take a bit of time for us to reflect on,
so we can learn about kind of our model for
relationships from our family. But then we might also want
(18:50):
to ask ourselves questions like, am I someone who jumps
in two feet right from the start of a relationship
and I give all of myself to that other person?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Am I someone who's super quick to run?
Speaker 4 (19:03):
As soon as I see something that you know, doesn't
feel like it fits with my life and who I
am and the life I want to live, I jump
out really quick.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
Am I someone who gets the ick really easily?
Speaker 6 (19:15):
You know?
Speaker 5 (19:16):
All these questions we can ask ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Is ITCK a clinical term?
Speaker 6 (19:19):
No?
Speaker 8 (19:20):
No, no, But I use it because people seem to
relate to this idea of the ick, something that something
that's off putting or is a bit of a turn off, right,
And you know do we jump and run as soon
as we notice that there.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Was something you said before love language? Can you tell
me more about that?
Speaker 4 (19:40):
So the rundown on love languages, it's said that there
are five main types of love languages.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
So these are the ways that.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
We like to both express love to other people and
receive love. So the five categories are physical touch, words
of affirmation, acts of service so doing something for someone else,
spending quality time together, and then.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
Receiving and giving gifts.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Right, So what we'll find is that different people will
have preferences for how they like to express and show
their love to other people, and there'll be different preferences
for how we like to receive that as well.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Okay, you've given us a lot of frameworks which have
been very helpful.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
What's our homework?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Two things for homework.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
First of all, go back and listen to those questions
that help us reflect on who we are and how
we are in a relationship, and spend some time maybe
writing journaling around those questions. The second piece of homework
is for the listeners who aren't sure of what their
ideal relationship actually looks like. Think of and find a
(20:49):
model of a relationship two people that you know who
are in a healthy romantic relationship, and write down a
list of the qualities that you can identify that that
relationship has. So not necessarily the qualities of the individual
people or what the people are like, but the qualities
the relationship has. So this might be things like they've
(21:11):
got a great sense of fun and humor when they're together,
like they've got this great banter that goes on, or
they've got this great sense of security when they're with
one another, Like when I see them out in public,
you know, and I see one of them, they'll speak
really fondly about the other person even when they're not around, right,
So write out this list of qualities of what you
(21:31):
see play out in that relationship. And this can be
a bit of a guide for you to know what
you're looking for, because we want to know what we're
looking for when we're going out on that dating journey
and world of what qualities we want in a partner,
but what qualities we want in a relationship. So spend
some time writing that list out for yourself. And I'm
also going to say this is not just for the
(21:53):
women listening. This is for the men as well. We
can all benefit from these types of exercises of getting
to know ourselves better and getting a clearer picture of
what it is we want in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
So it's been single actually a really important part of
breaking relationship patterns.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yes and no, there's definitely benefits in spending time being single,
especially for the people out there who might be the
serial daters who maybe jump from relationship to relationship or
are constantly going on dates trying to find that right person.
There's definitely benefit in spending time with ourselves, getting to
know ourselves and building that strong sense of independent identity.
(22:34):
That's what being single can help us do. Build ourselves,
build our sense of self, our self worth, and our identity.
And that's really important for any relationship that we show
up in, whether it's a romantic one, a friendship, our
relationship with our family. Having a strong sense of self
is really important. But it's also important for us to
(22:56):
date and to interact with other people because that's when
our attachment style is going to show up. That's when
it's going to get triggered up. If I'm an anxiously
attached person in relationships. I'm probably not going to feel
as a anxious when I'm single because I'm not waiting
for that person to text back or I'm not you know,
wondering where they are and when they're coming home from
(23:17):
having drinks with their friends. Right, So, there is something
important to be said about working with our attachment styles
when we're in a romantic relationship, because that is when
it's going to show up.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
After this shortbreak, Anastasia is going to give one of
you advice on your relationship dilemma. Stay with us, barb,
barb Bibby, I'm having a serious crisis.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
A BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Welcome back to but are you happy for today's BRB
Having a Crisis segment?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I am bringing you Naomi.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Over the past six months, I've noticed that most of
the dates that I've been going on haven't really gone.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Beyond like a one or two night thing.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Sometimes I'm aware of the situation, like I'll go out
with a guy even if his dating profile says that
he's looking for something casual, and even though I'm hoping
for something more, if we have fun together and the
conversation's good, then I'd still give it a shot. But
I end up getting disappointed when it doesn't turn into
something serious, and then I have one of those light
bulb moments.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
But then I've also.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Been ghosted by guys who say they're looking for something
long term.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
So we go on a few dates, things go.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, we even sleep together, and then suddenly they disappear,
even though we seem to get along and we were
on the same page.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
I guess that's just them being shitty. Right. Have I
been dating the wrong people? And if so, where do
I find the right ones?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Oh? This is hard, Anastasia. What advice do you have
for Naomi?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Oh, the guys who ghost come on, guys, get it together.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Can we stop with the ghosting? Is what I want
to say first up.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
But Naomi, look, I hear you, And the thing is,
for most of us, sometimes we sacrifice.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
What we truly want for being liked.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
Right, So I'm hearing that there's sometimes a bit of
a pattern of dating guys who are saying they don't
want a long term relationship, but it is something that
you're looking for. So the number one thing I would
say is don't ever walk into a relationship or a
dating situation hoping or thinking that we can change the
(25:31):
other person. We like to think we can change other people,
and sometimes it would be so nice to be able
to change other people, but we fundamentally can't. So I
guess the advice and guidance I would give someone like
Naomi is again, do that self reflective work. What can
you change within yourself rather than what can we change
in other people? And I would encourage you to be
(25:54):
really clear with yourself and the people you're dating about
what your hopes and expectations are for a relationship. Now,
this doesn't have to be something that we completely lay
on the table on the first dag.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
You know, our five to ten year plan and how
many children we want.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I mean, it could be that could be fine too,
but it doesn't have to be. But have some clarity,
at least for yourself as to what you're looking for,
and if it's a long term relationship, make sure that
you are matching and going on dates with people who
are saying at the very least that that's what they're
looking for as well, and have those conversations early. Start
(26:30):
to suss out in those first few dates if that
is actually what the other person wants, that is looking for,
or maybe they think it's what they want, but they're
not quite sure.
Speaker 6 (26:39):
Right.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
This is a process of gathering information about the other person,
who they are and what they want, so that we
can make the best informed decisions for ourselves that we can.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I have a feeling a lot of people are going
to be bookmarking this episode and sending it to their friends.
It's one of those episodes and to saysa, can you
give us a recap of what we covered today?
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Absolutely, and I actually recommend writing these down and keeping
them handy when you're about to go on a date.
So first up, we can't change or control other people,
but we do have agency over ourselves. Second, know yourself
and know your attachment style. Third, reflect on the models
(27:28):
of relationships that you've grown up with. Fourth, when you're dating,
be the person you want to be in a relationship with.
Don't try and be liked or desired by the other person.
And last, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
All such pearls of wisdom, and really they apply to
all relationships with other people, not just romantic ones.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Next week, we're diving headfirst into a topic that I
am very passionate about and that is, how to separate
the helpful from the harmful on therapy talk and whether
or not we should be getting mental health advice from
the influencers out there.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
If you have a burning question, there's a few ways
to get in touch with us.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Links in the show notes.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal history. The
executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I'm a Shany Dante and.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I'm doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people
discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(29:01):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Thanks for listening.
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
On for Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome
to But Are You Happy? Because self care is more
than overprize candles?
Speaker 4 (00:31):
And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernus, the clinical psychologist passionate about happiness.
Have you ever ended a relationship, been single for a while,
started a new relationship, only to realize that you're basically
dating your ex?
Speaker 3 (00:47):
Oh so many of my girlfriends are in this cycle
as we speak.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
Well, this is the episode for them because there's a
reason we keep dating the wrong.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Person and hopefully there's ways we can break out of
this cycle.
Speaker 5 (00:59):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
It is one of the most important cycles to break
in life.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
I have a million questions. Let's get straight into it, Okay, Anasthasia,
Let's just cut to the chase. Why do we keep
dating the wrong person?
Speaker 4 (01:19):
To answer that, I have to give you a little
bit of psych one oh one. So we're going to
talk about attachment styles, because our attachment style very much
influences who were drawn to, who we date and who
we might end up in a relationship with So what
is an attachment style to start off with?
Speaker 5 (01:36):
Our attachment style is essentially.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
A pattern of how we emotionally bond with other people.
Speaker 5 (01:44):
So it's this pattern of.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
How we can have emotional intimacy with others while also
maintaining our own sense of independence and identity in a relationship. Now,
our attachment style is relevant for emotionally close relationships. So
my attachment style doesn't necessarily play out when it comes
to how I interact with a barista who's making my coffee,
(02:07):
or how I might interact with a colt work that
I don't really have.
Speaker 6 (02:11):
Much to do with.
Speaker 4 (02:12):
We're really talking about emotionally close relationships our good friends,
our siblings, our families, our partners, etc.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, so there's four main attachment styles, right.
Speaker 5 (02:23):
Yes, that's right.
Speaker 4 (02:24):
So we've got our secure attachment, which is ultimately what
we're aiming for in life. We've got an anxious attachment style,
there's an avoidant attachment style, and then there's a disorganized
attachment style. So I'll go through each of them and
do a little bit of an explainer. As I explain
these attachment styles, I want you to think of closeness
(02:47):
and distance in a relationship because they all relate to
how emotionally close and how emotionally distant we can be
from someone else.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Is it also really important to not bring judgment because
I think it's very easy to be like, oh, anxious
is bad, and then you know, and then that kind
of weighs on us.
Speaker 4 (03:06):
Yes, definitely have an open mind about what our attachment
style might be and the attachment style of other people
that we know as well.
Speaker 6 (03:13):
So if we.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Start without secure attachment, this is where we feel comfortable
having both closeness and distance in a relationship. So if
I have a secure attachment with my partner, I feel
comfortable and okay when we have those emotionally close intimate moments.
I feel okay with us sharing emotions with one another,
(03:35):
being vulnerable with one another. And I also feel comfortable
when there's that emotional distance when we need physical and
emotional time.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Apart from one another.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
So that's what we'd look at as a secure attachment relationship.
And if I can give you an example, there's something
called circle of security training, which is what often young
and new moms will do to help them learn how
to bond with their child And one of the best
visuals I have of what a secure attachment looks like
is where a mum and her little baby are in
(04:08):
a room together and the baby kind of starts to
crawl off, and you know, inspect something in the room,
looks at some sort of toy, and it kind of
goes this certain distance away from mum. It then kind
of turns around, looks back at mum. Mum gives the
kind of nod of yep, you're good, everything's okay, and
then it keeps playing and eventually.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
It comes back.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
Right.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
This is this idea of secure attachment.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I can go away from the person I have the
relationship with, I can feel comfortable being away, and then
I can comfortably come back as well.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
So essentially it's finding the relationship and the balance between
being independent but also intimate.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
Exactly.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Yeah, so that's our secure attachment. Then we'll talk about
our anxious attachment style. Now, this is essentially an attachment
style where we feel uncomfortable having emotional.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
Space in a relationship. We want to be close.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
We crave the closeness, and sometimes we can crave it
a little bit too much. So this might present as
someone who is quite clinging in a relationship. To put
it simply right, there's someone who wants to constantly be
in contact with.
Speaker 5 (05:18):
The other person.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
If they don't hear back from them, they become really anxious,
they become really worried, They start to, you know, call
them repeatedly. So there's a discomfort with that space in relationships.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
It does remind me of one of my friends, and
let's just call her Lucy. Lucy, I would say, has
this anxious attachment style and is quite clinging to her partner.
And when she messages her partner he doesn't get back
to her. There's a freak out. She freaks out, she
thinks there's something wrong, he's going to break up with her,
and it's just she really spirals. So in a way,
(05:52):
would you say that that's a pattern of an anxious
attachment style.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Absolutely, And unfortunately what can happen is the more anxious
someone behaves in a relationship, the more the other person
might actually step away from them because it feels quite
overwhelming to be on the receiving end of So while
that person, like your friend Lucy, is craving the closeness,
it can actually have the opposite effect. In a relationship
(06:17):
where someone steps further away from them.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, so it's interesting because they want intimacy because they're
scared of being alone. And then those behaviors are acting
out like the partner's stepping away and she doesn't understand.
So what we think is helping is actually making it
worse without realizing absolutely.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
And that can be amplified if someone who has an
anxious attachment style partners up with someone who has an
avoidant attachment style. Right, So, the avoidant attachment style is
almost the opposite of the anxious. It's someone who has
discomforted with emotional closeness. It's the person who always feels
(06:56):
like emotionally they're in arm's length away and constantly emotionally
just out of reach, like we can never quite reach them.
And what we sometimes find is when someone who's anxious
pairs with someone who's avoidant, there can almost be this
cat and mouse where the anxious person does their anxious
stuff understandably and the avoidant person keeps stepping further and
further away.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Okay, so those are the three. What about the fourth
attachment style?
Speaker 4 (07:21):
So the last one is what we call disorganized attachment,
and this is essentially a combination of the anxious and
the avoidance styles. This is where someone has unfortunately discomfort
with both closeness.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
And distance done where me.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Yeah, And for the person who is disorganized in their
attachment style, it really can feel uncomfortable but quite chaotic.
It's like this constant push pull feeling, and that person
will feel it in themselves and a person they're in
a relationship with will also feel it from them as well.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
So you've talked about the patterns of attachment style, but
where does it all come from?
Speaker 5 (07:59):
Good question.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
A lot of our attachment patterns come from early childhood,
so they are very much influenced by our family, our
early life experiences, any caregivers that we had in our lives,
or it doesn't have to just be parents, it could
be grandparents or aunties or anyone else who was involved
in sort of raising us. Our attachment styles are very
(08:23):
much influenced and modeled by how they related to us
when we were kids. In addition to that, our attachment
style can also be influenced by major disruptions in attachment. So,
for example, if someone has a parent who suddenly dies
when they're a child, or who suddenly gets up and
(08:46):
leaves the family and goes to another country and they
never see them again. Right, These kind of experiences of
abandonment can absolutely influence how comfortable or uncomfortable people then
feel in their subsequent relationships in life.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So with these attachment styles, can you change them? Or
is it kind of like this is your stamp you're
anxiously attached in like for us no matter what relationsh yeah,
this is it, you know, can you actually change it?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
You can absolutely change it. We all sit somewhere on
a spectrum, right, so we may always be a little
more anxious generally in terms of our temperament in terms
of our attachment. That's fine, But we definitely can change
our attachment.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
Patterns with other people.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
So the first part, as with anything, is to really
start to become aware of where we might sit in
that spectrum of attachment. Do we feel pretty secure or
are we a little bit more avoidance or more anxious
or maybe a combination of both. So the first part
to be able to change anything is always the awareness.
Speaker 3 (09:47):
So our attachment styles the foundation of why we have
relationship patterns, I.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Would say largely, there's always other factors that can come
into players to why we might be drawn to certain people,
but our attachment style is fundamental to how we relate
to anyone, not just sort of romantic relationships, but anyone
in our life. But we're definitely aiming for that sort
of more secure attachment with most of the people that
we interact with. And as I'm saying that, I'm actually
(10:16):
thinking of you as shining because you've been.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
With YO for what like f fifteen years?
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Fifteen years?
Speaker 7 (10:21):
My gosh, okay, so it's been a while. Maybe I'm
going to turn it to you. You tell us, like,
what is it that makes a fifteen year relationship work?
Like what's your inside around your attachment style with Yo?
Speaker 1 (10:34):
This is a great question. I'm in the hot seat.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
So I feel like with YO and I being together
for so long, I think what's at the bottom of
it is the trust and safety, but also being able
to navigate conflict and having the ability to communicate. So,
you know, being in a secure relationship doesn't mean that
we don't have disagreements. We definitely do, and I think
(10:58):
actually disagreements are really healthy in relationships because if you
morph into the other person, you lose your you know, independence,
which we were talking to before when you were outlining
the behaviors Yo and I when we have disagreements, we're
able to sit there and be able to listen to
each other, validate their perspective, but also not overriding the
(11:19):
other person's perspective. And then it's kind of this dance
of you could say, negotiation but also hearing each other.
Speaker 5 (11:27):
What's of green flags is what I hear?
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Green flags?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, if you're listening, well done, you did it. Okay,
tell me about green flags.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Green flags is what we want to look for.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
I love that in like, you know, pop culture today,
we've labeled them red flags and green flags, but you know,
they're nice ways of summarizing things that are important to
look for in a relationship and in a partner, and
things that we ideally don't want in a.
Speaker 5 (11:51):
Relationship as well.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
So green flags, I mean, if I come back to
what you were saying about your relationship with the trust
and the safety, like that emotional safety, to feel like
I can be myself, I can be authentic, I can
be vulnerable and share myself and my emotional experiences with
someone else and know that that's going to be received.
Doesn't mean they have to agree with it, but they
(12:13):
can hold space for it, big green flags right there,
open communication, the ability to disagree.
Speaker 6 (12:20):
Right.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
We're not always going to agree in relationships, as you've
just pointed out fifteen years.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Probably a few disagreements along the way, of course, but
to be able to do that is so important.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I know that a disagreement isn't going to mean necessarily
the end of a relationship. That we can have tension
within a bigger picture of secure attachment in a relationship.
So lots of green flags, of course, having that mutual
respect for one another, respect for independent identity as well
as respect for one another's opinions as well.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So what about the other side, What about red flags?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
So red flags, red flags mean different things for different people, right,
So what might be a red flag for me might
be different to you. But if we talk about some
sort of evidence based, researched firm red flags, I would
say they're like, obviously abuse in any form. We never
want to tolerate any sort of abuse, things like excessive
(13:17):
jealousy or excessive secrecy. Now, I mean these things will
sometimes come up in small doses in relationships and that
can be okay, But when we are seeing it play
out excessively, that's a red flag, hangar management issues or
any sort of controlling behaviors we might see from the
other person. And then other things like someone gaslighting us,
(13:39):
someone love bombing us. So we love bombing has done
the rounds and socials lately. I've seen quite a few
things online about it.
Speaker 5 (13:46):
But really this.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Notion of when someone comes in too strong, too early,
it's actually not a great indicator of how they're feeling
towards us and how the relationship might progress.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
So with this green flag red flag system, where does
attraction come into this, Like, how does it impact that?
Speaker 4 (14:06):
Gosh, it can impact it in so many ways. It
can make us blind to red flags. Sure, but everything
in moderation. I think this is going to be one
of my catchphrases for this podcast is everything in moderation. Yes,
we want to be looking out for the red flags
and the green flags, and that's important. We don't want
to overdo it though, right, We don't want to just
be there with the clipboard like ticking off in the
(14:27):
two columns what someone's sort.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
Of matching up with.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
But on the flip side, we also don't want to
go for just like ten out of ten pure chemistry,
fire and spice.
Speaker 5 (14:37):
You know that that's also not what we're looking for.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
And actually, what we often find is that when someone
does meet another person, if they're dating, and they do
feel that like ten out of ten draw to them,
that's often not a good sign. Let's aim for, like, yeah,
we want to aim for like that seven out of ten,
maybe an eight out of ten kind of fire and passion.
(15:01):
When we feel that ten out of ten, it's often
a sign that something in us is being activated, and
not necessarily in a good way. So if I I'm
an anxiously attached person and I meet someone who's kind
of a little bit on the avoidant end, I might.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Feel that fire, right. That's why we.
Speaker 4 (15:19):
Often see anxious and avoidant people in relationships together, which
can end up with really some chaos in the relationship.
So be mindful of the ten out of ten passion
that you feel, and really check in with yourself around
why you're feeling so drawn to this person. Often it's
the case that it's familiar patterns being brought up and activated,
(15:42):
and because they're familiar, they feel good.
Speaker 5 (15:46):
They're known to us, but they're not necessarily healthy for us.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
After this short break.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Doctor Anastasia is going to teach you how to understand
what your relationship cycle is and exactly how to break it. Okay, Anastasia,
we've talked about attachment styles, red flags and green flags
and all the reasons why we date the wrong people.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
So what do we actually do it? How do we
get off this train?
Speaker 4 (16:14):
So I say that one of the things we all
need to know as women, as people in the world,
we need to know ourselves right before we start looking
for the green flags and the red flags and the
beige flags and whatever colored flags we want to see
in someone else, Let's first look at ourselves, right. We
need to have a solid understanding of who we are
and how we show up in the world and in
(16:34):
relation to other people. So I think it is so
important for us to spend that time doing some self reflection.
This can happen independently, it can happen through a process
of seeing a therapist, but it's important to spend that
time reflecting. So one of the first things I recommend
(16:54):
anyone to do, if you're dating, if you're single, if
you're in a relationship.
Speaker 5 (16:59):
Is reflect on yourself. It's all well and good for
us to talk about the red flags, the green flags,
the big flags, any colored flags.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
It doesn't matter what color they are. But we need
to first look in words at ourselves. So the first
part of being able to successfully date and find a
partner that will be a good match for us is
to do that in a reflective work, and then from
that point on we can figure out who might be
a good match for us based on what our attachment
(17:28):
style is, what our values are, and what we want
in life.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
So what are the kind of questions we should be
asking ourselves.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
We want to try to understand our attachment style, our
love language, and how we express and receive love in
a relationship. So we might ask ourselves questions like, how
do I show up in a relationship?
Speaker 5 (17:48):
Who am I?
Speaker 4 (17:49):
What parts of my identity come forward when I'm in
a relationship? What's this like when I'm with my family?
What part of myself shows up with my family? What
about with my friends? What about in past relationships? Who
was I in past relationships? How did I show love?
Speaker 5 (18:06):
How did I.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Feel love in a relationship? But also what's my model
for a relationship? Being like, you know, how did my
parents relate to one another? How was love and care
and romance expressed in the household and in my family.
And what did I learn from that? You know, what
did I observe as a kid growing up watching my
(18:29):
parents or my family interact with one another and with me.
So these are pretty big questions, right I don't expect
people to have answers to these overnight or sit down
and you know, suddenly write out all the answers to these.
They take a bit of time for us to reflect on,
so we can learn about kind of our model for
relationships from our family. But then we might also want
(18:50):
to ask ourselves questions like, am I someone who jumps
in two feet right from the start of a relationship
and I give all of myself to that other person?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Am I someone who's super quick to run?
Speaker 4 (19:03):
As soon as I see something that you know, doesn't
feel like it fits with my life and who I
am and the life I want to live, I jump
out really quick.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
Am I someone who gets the ick really easily?
Speaker 6 (19:15):
You know?
Speaker 5 (19:16):
All these questions we can ask ourselves.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Is ITCK a clinical term?
Speaker 6 (19:19):
No?
Speaker 8 (19:20):
No, no, But I use it because people seem to
relate to this idea of the ick, something that something
that's off putting or is a bit of a turn off, right,
And you know do we jump and run as soon
as we notice that there.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Was something you said before love language? Can you tell
me more about that?
Speaker 4 (19:40):
So the rundown on love languages, it's said that there
are five main types of love languages.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
So these are the ways that.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
We like to both express love to other people and
receive love. So the five categories are physical touch, words
of affirmation, acts of service so doing something for someone else,
spending quality time together, and then.
Speaker 5 (20:04):
Receiving and giving gifts.
Speaker 4 (20:06):
Right, So what we'll find is that different people will
have preferences for how they like to express and show
their love to other people, and there'll be different preferences
for how we like to receive that as well.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Okay, you've given us a lot of frameworks which have
been very helpful.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
What's our homework?
Speaker 5 (20:24):
Two things for homework.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
First of all, go back and listen to those questions
that help us reflect on who we are and how
we are in a relationship, and spend some time maybe
writing journaling around those questions. The second piece of homework
is for the listeners who aren't sure of what their
ideal relationship actually looks like. Think of and find a
(20:49):
model of a relationship two people that you know who
are in a healthy romantic relationship, and write down a
list of the qualities that you can identify that that
relationship has. So not necessarily the qualities of the individual
people or what the people are like, but the qualities
the relationship has. So this might be things like they've
(21:11):
got a great sense of fun and humor when they're together,
like they've got this great banter that goes on, or
they've got this great sense of security when they're with
one another, Like when I see them out in public,
you know, and I see one of them, they'll speak
really fondly about the other person even when they're not around, right,
So write out this list of qualities of what you
(21:31):
see play out in that relationship. And this can be
a bit of a guide for you to know what
you're looking for, because we want to know what we're
looking for when we're going out on that dating journey
and world of what qualities we want in a partner,
but what qualities we want in a relationship. So spend
some time writing that list out for yourself. And I'm
also going to say this is not just for the
(21:53):
women listening. This is for the men as well. We
can all benefit from these types of exercises of getting
to know ourselves better and getting a clearer picture of
what it is we want in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
So it's been single actually a really important part of
breaking relationship patterns.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
Yes and no, there's definitely benefits in spending time being single,
especially for the people out there who might be the
serial daters who maybe jump from relationship to relationship or
are constantly going on dates trying to find that right person.
There's definitely benefit in spending time with ourselves, getting to
know ourselves and building that strong sense of independent identity.
(22:34):
That's what being single can help us do. Build ourselves,
build our sense of self, our self worth, and our identity.
And that's really important for any relationship that we show
up in, whether it's a romantic one, a friendship, our
relationship with our family. Having a strong sense of self
is really important. But it's also important for us to
(22:56):
date and to interact with other people because that's when
our attachment style is going to show up. That's when
it's going to get triggered up. If I'm an anxiously
attached person in relationships. I'm probably not going to feel
as a anxious when I'm single because I'm not waiting
for that person to text back or I'm not you know,
wondering where they are and when they're coming home from
(23:17):
having drinks with their friends. Right, So, there is something
important to be said about working with our attachment styles
when we're in a romantic relationship, because that is when
it's going to show up.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
After this shortbreak, Anastasia is going to give one of
you advice on your relationship dilemma. Stay with us, barb,
barb Bibby, I'm having a serious crisis.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
A BRB having a crisis.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Welcome back to but are you happy for today's BRB
Having a Crisis segment?
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I am bringing you Naomi.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Over the past six months, I've noticed that most of
the dates that I've been going on haven't really gone.
Speaker 6 (24:02):
Beyond like a one or two night thing.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Sometimes I'm aware of the situation, like I'll go out
with a guy even if his dating profile says that
he's looking for something casual, and even though I'm hoping
for something more, if we have fun together and the
conversation's good, then I'd still give it a shot. But
I end up getting disappointed when it doesn't turn into
something serious, and then I have one of those light
bulb moments.
Speaker 6 (24:23):
But then I've also.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
Been ghosted by guys who say they're looking for something
long term.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
So we go on a few dates, things go.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Well, we even sleep together, and then suddenly they disappear,
even though we seem to get along and we were
on the same page.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
I guess that's just them being shitty. Right. Have I
been dating the wrong people? And if so, where do
I find the right ones?
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Oh? This is hard, Anastasia. What advice do you have
for Naomi?
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Oh, the guys who ghost come on, guys, get it together.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Can we stop with the ghosting? Is what I want
to say first up.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
But Naomi, look, I hear you, And the thing is,
for most of us, sometimes we sacrifice.
Speaker 5 (25:06):
What we truly want for being liked.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
Right, So I'm hearing that there's sometimes a bit of
a pattern of dating guys who are saying they don't
want a long term relationship, but it is something that
you're looking for. So the number one thing I would
say is don't ever walk into a relationship or a
dating situation hoping or thinking that we can change the
(25:31):
other person. We like to think we can change other people,
and sometimes it would be so nice to be able
to change other people, but we fundamentally can't. So I
guess the advice and guidance I would give someone like
Naomi is again, do that self reflective work. What can
you change within yourself rather than what can we change
in other people? And I would encourage you to be
(25:54):
really clear with yourself and the people you're dating about
what your hopes and expectations are for a relationship. Now,
this doesn't have to be something that we completely lay
on the table on the first dag.
Speaker 5 (26:06):
You know, our five to ten year plan and how
many children we want.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I mean, it could be that could be fine too,
but it doesn't have to be. But have some clarity,
at least for yourself as to what you're looking for,
and if it's a long term relationship, make sure that
you are matching and going on dates with people who
are saying at the very least that that's what they're
looking for as well, and have those conversations early. Start
(26:30):
to suss out in those first few dates if that
is actually what the other person wants, that is looking for,
or maybe they think it's what they want, but they're
not quite sure.
Speaker 6 (26:39):
Right.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
This is a process of gathering information about the other person,
who they are and what they want, so that we
can make the best informed decisions for ourselves that we can.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
I have a feeling a lot of people are going
to be bookmarking this episode and sending it to their friends.
It's one of those episodes and to saysa, can you
give us a recap of what we covered today?
Speaker 4 (27:07):
Absolutely, and I actually recommend writing these down and keeping
them handy when you're about to go on a date.
So first up, we can't change or control other people,
but we do have agency over ourselves. Second, know yourself
and know your attachment style. Third, reflect on the models
(27:28):
of relationships that you've grown up with. Fourth, when you're dating,
be the person you want to be in a relationship with.
Don't try and be liked or desired by the other person.
And last, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
All such pearls of wisdom, and really they apply to
all relationships with other people, not just romantic ones.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
One hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Next week, we're diving headfirst into a topic that I
am very passionate about and that is, how to separate
the helpful from the harmful on therapy talk and whether
or not we should be getting mental health advice from
the influencers out there.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
If you have a burning question, there's a few ways
to get in touch with us.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Links in the show notes.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal history. The
executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 5 (28:35):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
I'm a Shany Dante and.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I'm doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people
discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(29:01):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
Thanks for listening.
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