June 27, 2025 • 40 mins
Have you ever said yes to your boss when you really wanted to say no? Or agreed with a colleague even though your gut was telling you they were wrong?
In this episode of But Are You Happy, clinical psychologist Dr. Anastasia Hronis unpacks the psychology of people pleasing—why we do it, why we feel guilty when we don’t, and how it shows up in the workplace.
You'll also learn:
- The hidden costs of saying yes too often
- How being overly agreeable can lead to burnout
- Practical tools for assertive communication at work
- How to set healthy, professional boundaries with colleagues
If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Both services are available 24/7 for free, confidential mental health support.
Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Our studio is styled with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Support the show: https://www.mamamia.com.au/mplus/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on Sorry Helen, stay
late tonight. Yeah, I just realized I'm going to miss
them last train, I think. And also it's my fiance's birthday.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Don't worry about me, honestly, I'll come or just sleep
on Excel.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
For Mama Mia.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But are you happy?
Because self diagnosing in the group chat isn't therapy?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Now have you ever said yes
to your boss when what you really wanted to say
was no? Or when was the last time you agreed
with a colleague even when your gut was telling you
that they were wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
I feel like if I could raise not only one hand,
but all of my limbs right now stress how relatable
this subject is, I would look.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
To be fair. My hand is up to We've all
done this at some point, but a lot of us
find that it can become quite a habit or a
coping mechanism. And this is what we call people pleasing.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
People pleasing in the workplace. So much to unpack in
this let's do it so a few episodes back. Back
in episode two, we learned how to say no to
the people we love most. But today we're going to
be talking about how to say no in the workplace
because we.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Know that there is a difference. There isn't there.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Absolutely there's a similarity of both involve us saying no,
using our assertive skills and trying to do so in
a kind and respectful way, But they're really different situations
that we might navigate differently.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
So, starting from the top, why do we say yes
so much in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
There's not one clear answer to this, ye, right, so
there's a few different reasons. Absolutely. So we've talked a
little bit about this before, but we have a natural
desire to please, and we've talked about how from an
evolutionary perspective, this is fundamental for a sense of safety
and protection. We want to be liked, We want to
be part of the pack, and from prehistoric times that
(02:28):
was crucial for our safety to be liked by other
people because we'd then be protected by them. Right. So
this is a very kind of primal biological part of
why we might nowadays say yes in certain situations we
want to be liked. But there's other reasons too. We
might say yes when we actually mean no in the
workplace because we want to avoid conflict. No one likes conflict.
(02:52):
I don't like conflicts. I don't either, so it makes sense.
But it might be that some people are more sort
of conflict avoidant than others. People might be anxious to
say no. We're not sure how other people are going
to respond. We're not sure how our boss is going
to take it if we say no to them, so
that can be a bit anxiety provoked. Sometimes people have
(03:13):
what I would say is a false expectation that people
pleasing is going to actually help them get ahead in
their career. If I say yes to everything, if I'm
the person that takes on every task and does it
as best as I can and livers everything on time,
then I'm going to get ahead. And to that, I say, maybe, right,
(03:34):
Maybe that's part of it, but probably what you'll find
is that you get more and more work because you're
the person who's reliable and always says yes. So you're
going to be the go to person when someone has
a task that they want someone to do because we
know you'll say yes.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
So interesting you're saying that, because I can imagine so
many people tuning in now listening. And also I see
this in myself, especially when we're young and we're at
an early stage in our career, like we do feel
like we do need to say yes. You know, I
hear this term all the time around. You've got to
earn your stripes, you know. So it is I like
that you said maybe because there is both sides to it.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, and there's definitely that part of us needing to
kind of prove ourselves. I want to say that right,
prove ourselves in the workplace, show our boss, our colleagues,
whoever it might be, that we can get the job done,
that we're willing to jump in two feet and get
involved in projects, whatever it might be. But there's a
difference between being willing and people pleasing and not being
(04:33):
able to be assertive and say no when we need to.
And that's a healthy boundary for all of us to
be able to learn. And it kind of relates to
what I would say is a personality trait that some
people have around agreeableness.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Can you tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
That sounds interesting, Yes, So I'm gonna we'll do a
little bit of personality one oh one. Right, So there's
a model of personality that's got the acronym ocean, so
it refers to different personality traits that we all have,
and we sit on a spectrum of right. So the
O stands for openness. Now open and are we to
(05:11):
new experiences, to new ways of thinking to other people.
Some of us are very open, some of us are
more closed. So the O stands for open. The C
stands for conscientiousness. Where do I sit on a spectrum
of how conscientious I am in life? The E stands
for extraversion. We've probably many of us have heard of
(05:32):
extraversion and introversion. Again, that's somewhere on a spectrum that
will sit. The A stands for agreeableness. So some of
us are very agreeable. Where yes, people we like to please.
We don't like conflict. On the other end of that
is antagonism. So people who are more hostile, who will
often say no, who put their own needs first, And
(05:53):
for anyone listening out there who wants to know more
about that, tune in to our next upcoming episode where
we talk about narcissism because that very much relates to
this flavor of antagonism. And then the final one N
in our model stands for neuroticism. So kind of like
how anxiously pro we are to being sort of on
some sort of spectrum of neuroticism. That's our personality one
(06:16):
oh one. But I guess what we're focusing here is
specifically around that personality trait of agreeableness. So people pleasing
in the workplace is often linked to someone who is
high on the personality trait of agreeableness.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
This is I actually never knew about this model, so
I'm learning all of it in real time because as
you're talking, I think about friends in my life or
you know, people that I've coached in the past, and
when it comes to say no, Like, you can have
all the tools in the toolkit and have all the
self awareness, but sometimes I do wonder there are some
people that just better at say no.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So is that a personality thing? Like some people.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Genuinely that's just how they are, Like is that fixed?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Can you change that?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Good question? Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:05):
And no?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, okay, So there are parts of our personality that
are very integral to who we are and are not
easy to change. Right, They're pretty foundational and fundamental. If
we think about this concept of temperament, and when we
think about young children, some young kids are just born
(07:26):
more anxious than other kids. We see this even from
the zero to kind of two year old period in
a young child's life. Babies and kids are born with
different temperaments. So there is a part of it that
really is quite biological and can be hard to change.
But it's not to say that we can't learn skills
(07:47):
to be able to navigate that. If I am someone
who's more agreeable or someone who's more neurotic, or whatever
it might be, I can learn skills to manage the
part of me that might be that default that doesn't
always help me in a situation.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
This is really good to know.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
So right now, so we've kind of unpacked a lot
of reasons why we say yes in the workplace. Something
I'm keen to hear more about is like, what are
the consequences? Like what happens if we keep saying yes
in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
We get more work? But what's the consequence of that? Yeah,
So I think this is where we get into the
topic of burnout, right, And I think it's a really
important one for us to talk about because we are
seeing increasing rates of burnout in the workplace, and we're
actually seeing a lot of young people report that they're
(08:41):
experiencing burnout early on in their careers. And so I
do think about how much this might be linked to
being early in your career wanting to say yes, maybe
saying yes a little bit too much, but then also
getting burnt out really quickly and.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's really hard. And I think this kind of weaves
back into some of the things. Of the reasons why
we say yes all the time is because we do
create all these stories. And I had been like, Okay,
but if I say no, I'm going to miss this opportunity,
someone else is going to take it. And then we
create these compelling narratives that keeps us stuck insane.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, yes, the work fomo'. That's another reason why we might.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Say, do you do you feel the work? Fomo?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I am so guilty of the world. Oh, if there's
an exciting project, or like I do a lot of
research with university, right, someone's doing a project that sounds
interesting to me, I'm like, oh, do I have time
to take this on. I really want to get involved,
and it's the phomo. I'm like, that sounds fun, that
sounds exciting, it sounds interesting. I want to jump in,
and I'll be really sad if I don't. But you've learned?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Do you have you learnt the balance now of like
discerning or is that just a.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Constant journey for you?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It's an ongoing journey. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, it's all about being authentic here.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
You know, we give all the tools and the tricks
of the trade, but we're still embodying it. So okay,
So coming back to it, you did mention burnout, so
and I think it is very relatable and it's really
you spoke to the fact around a lot of young
people burning out.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
What is burnout like? Unpack it for us?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
So, burnout is essentially both a physical and psychological state
that we can enter where we experience extreme exhaustion. And
this is often related to the workplace, but I also
want to say it doesn't have to be work specific, right,
We can burn out in different ways in any kind
(10:38):
of role where we feel like we've got some sort
of pressure or expectation on us, or we're really devoting
ourselves to it. So parents can experience parental burnout. If
we're caring for a sick or an elderly family member,
we can experience care a burnout. If I'm someone who
advocates for a cause I'm thinking of, you know, the
(10:59):
grace Tames of the world who are there like fighting
the good fight on the front line, but consistently having
to advocate. Those people can burn out as well. So
burnout is not just works specific. It's this sort of
fatigue and intense exhaustion that we can feel from stress
and repeated stress.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
So what does that actually look like?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Signs and symptoms to look out for. Okay, So three
key categories of symptoms. Okay, So the first one is
around energy, So energy depletion, exhaustion of energy. I feel
like when I get up in the morning, even if
I've had the best night sleep, I don't have energy
to get up and go and do the thing I
(11:42):
need to do, go to work, do the tasks I
need to do. So the first one's about this sort
of depletion of energy. The second one is around mentality
and kind of our outlook towards our work. So we
might become really quite cynical. We might become really quite
detached from our work. We might be really sort of apathetic.
(12:04):
We might become really resentful to the people in the office.
We go into the office and people are having their
you know, morning cup of coffee and having a laugh,
and we're like, what are they laughing about? You know,
and it's probably got nothing to do with the fact
that they're laughing, But we're burnt out, so we become
quite cynical and almost resentful towards other people. And then
the last sort of category of symptoms is around our productivity,
(12:29):
but also our feeling of our sense of accomplishment. So
it might be that we are actually doing less than
we usually do or what we need to do, but
we also don't feel that sense of satisfaction and accomplishment
when we do achieve tasks at work.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
As you're talking about the signs and symptoms, I'm just
reflecting and being like, wow, okay, yeah, I was burnt
out then. So it is a lot of bringing self
awareness to all of this, you know, balancing all with kindness.
So I'm really keen to hear because as you're talking
about the signs and symptoms, one of them is around
like exhaustion, and you know, essentially not.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Feeling it in the job.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
So how can you tell the difference between you being
burnt out versus I'm actually just lacking passion and purpose
in this job.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
We certainly don't have to love our job, and we
certainly don't have to feel like it's our identity or
it's our bigger purpose in life. Right, So it's not
to say that we need to turn up to work
enthusiastic and super happy to be there. And I couldn't
think of anywhere I would rather be than at worked today,
even though the sun shining and a beach would be nice. Right,
So that's not necessarily what we're aiming for. But we
(13:37):
don't want to feel like we are exhausted to the
point where everything feels like a struggle at work. I
open my emails and I see ten emails sitting there,
and I go, good lord, I couldn't think of anything worse.
Right now. We don't want that experience. We don't want
an experience of resentment and cynicism, right. And this is
(13:57):
a really big one. I think this is actually the
biggest one to spot internally. If people are wanting to
do some self reflection, there's a difference between turning up
to work and being like, it's a job. That's fine,
it pays the bills. That's that's what I'm here for. Right.
That's a kind of like neutral emotional attachment to my work.
There's a big difference between feeling like, you know, what,
(14:19):
job's a job, it pays the bills. I rock up,
I do my thing, I go home. It is what
it is, right. That's quite a neutral attachment to work.
I'm kind of neither here nor there about it. That's
very different to feeling cynical and resentful to my work
and to the workplace and to the people that I
work with as well. So that's a really big indicator
(14:41):
that if you're not burnt out, you might be somewhere
on a pathway to burn out.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting too because as
you're speaking to it, it's also good for all of
us if you are in a workplace to be mindful
as well, Like, you know, we don't actually know what's
going on. For other people, they might be a little
bit more you know, off the cuff with comments and
things like that. And I think it's important to bring
a bit more empathy in the workplace too, So I
guess another question I have is what happens if people
(15:12):
pleasing is rewarded in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
So the question I would ask is how is it
being rewarded? Right? So when you say it's being rewarded,
my immediate thought is what's reward Right? Is reward that
this person is managing to make leaps and bounds in
their career because of their people pleasing, or is reward
like they're getting more attention from the boss. But you know,
(15:40):
what's their goal? Right? Is their goal to sort of
like move up the ranks in the company, or is
their goal to sort of get enough experience to move
to another workplace? What's the goal for that person and
is their behavior helping them achieve that? Because I think
that's really different to do. I just feel like I'm
getting recognition, which feels good, but practically for the purposes
(16:04):
of my career, maybe doesn't achieve a whole lot, Like, yeah,
it's useful, but maybe it's not getting me the pay rise,
or maybe it's not getting me that promotion that I'm seeking.
So I question this, this kind of notion of people
pleasing being rewarded because I would want to know.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
How, Yeah, because it's interesting too, and something I've observed
with working across generations. It's kind of like I find
with the gen X and like younger generations, there's different
kind of ways of working. I feel like I find
with young people that I've worked with, they're probably better
it's sending boundaries, whereas I find like a lot of
(16:40):
gen X is they look at that and kind of
question it. And it's not in like a one's right
or wrong. It's just we've grown up, you know, working differently.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yes, And I think we can sometimes overcorrect as well, right,
Like we see this happen in society all the time.
And I would be cautious and curiously asking people who
are early in their careers to yes, set the boundaries.
No way, and you're going to say no to a
(17:12):
boss when you're being asked to do something. And at
the same time, there are probably gonna be situations where
quote unquote people pleasing or being agreeable or stepping into
something with a willingness to maybe go a little bit
above and beyond what we normally would is actually going
to be a good thing. And to do that every
so often isn't bad. We're not being taken advantage of
(17:34):
where not as long as we don't feel like we
have to do it. If we can do it with willingness,
and we can do it in moderation, then great.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
And it is it's kind of like, yes, still work
hard because sometimes I think we can weaponize the whole
boundary thing and being like, oh, I don't know, but
it's important to work hard and build that grit and
muscle and something. You know, I'm really grateful of you know,
I'm still young, but I'm grateful I've worked really hard in.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
The first ten years.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
But something I'm also keen to unpack too, Like, especially
people who are in the workplace and they've got employees
and maybe younger or may have some people please behave
What would you say to them to make sure they're
not taking advantage of people pleases in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Are we the problem is what you're asking? Am I
the problems? Oh?
Speaker 4 (18:23):
God?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, So this is the first thing I'm going to say,
because I think this is a complex question that calls
for self reflection. The boundaries that we might be willing
to set for ourselves are not what we should expect
other people to set for themselves. So I am someone
you know, I'm going to put my hand up and
admit I will sometimes work in the evening. You know,
(18:47):
I've got a business of what different things I do.
There are evenings that I will work, right, I'm okay
with that. Like I love my job, I love what
I do. I'm okay with working some longer hours. Sometimes
that doesn't mean that I can expect that from my
employees or from other people that work with me. So
just because a boundary is okay for me, doesn't mean
(19:12):
it's okay for someone else. So I think it's always
really important to remember that everyone's going to have a
different sense of what works for them and how it
works for them, And we don't want to ever be
in a situation where we're imposing our way of working
onto someone else.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
So it's really interesting because when I'm hearing is that
so often I feel like burnout is rewarded, you know,
in the hustle culture, you know, work the longest hours.
But actually what I'm hearing is that it's doing a
complete opposite and no one's giving you that reward when
you're lying down in bed completely burnt out. Exactly right,
What are the pros of agreeableness.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I love this question because agreeable people are lovely. Yes,
they're the light. They're empathetic, they're kind, they're great to
work with, great at collaboration. Right, They're just really lovely
people who are great at building relationships. So if you're
working with someone who's agreeable, and you're working in an
(20:11):
industry or a sector where building relationships is really important,
your agreeable colleagues are going to do really well at
that and be a really great asset in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So it's not all bad.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It's not all bad.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
There's good things to it.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
After this shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to teach us
a method to help us stop our people pleasing in
its tracks. Stay with us, Okay, Atastasia, I'm going to
cheat a little and I'm going to ask you for
two techniques today. The first one is how do we
say no in the workplace that doesn't, you know, jeopardize
(20:48):
our career? And the second one is what do you
do if you're noticing signs of burnout. Let's start with
the first one. How do we say no?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
How do we say no? Yep, beyond just saying no.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, we need more, we need more guidance.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So what I'm going to do is ground this technique
in the concept of assertive now, right, So we hear
assertiveness talked about, but what is assertive communication? Assertiveness is
fundamentally all about respect. Okay. So if we think about
communication styles as existing on some sort of spectrum. Down
(21:27):
one end of the spectrum, we have passive communication, so
this is where where people pleases, we say yes when
we may know. We might be quite timid in our approach.
Our tone of voice might be quite soft and a
bit apologetic. So this is our more passive style of communication.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have aggressive communication.
(21:51):
So this is very strong, very loud, maybe a bit
in someone's personal space, quite direct. You're not using our
pleas and thank yous, you know, this sort of aggressive
style of communicating with others. And in the middle we
have assertiveness. So where does respect come into this. If
we're passive in our communication style, the person we don't
(22:13):
respect is ourselves. If we're aggressive in our communication style,
the person we're not respecting is whoever we're talking to.
Assertive communication is the ability to speak with someone where
we respect them and we respect ourselves. So if we
(22:34):
break down what does assertive communication look sound, feel like.
It's direct, it's clear, we don't have too many arms
and h's. We use eye statements to communicate I think this,
I feel this, not you did this. You are this.
(22:56):
Our body language where confidence, where our shoulders are rolled back,
we stand up tall. We have a kind but confident
tone of voice. We feel comfortable making eye contact, but
we're not staring someone down right, So when we think
about assertive communication, it's important to think about how we
(23:16):
hold that assertiveness in our body, in our face, in
terms of our facial expressions, and in our tone of voice.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
This is really good because it's nice to get these
dot points conceptually, and I'm wondering if there's also a
way to further break it down, like an example of
what we actually say next time in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yes, so I'm going to teach all our listeners a
four step method of what to say when you're trying
to be assertive in an interaction. Now, this is great
for the workplace, it can translate outside of the workplace
as well, So don't feel like it's just for the workplace.
But we want to use this method when we're trying
(23:59):
to achieve some sort of objective. We have a goal
of what we're trying to communicate. We're not focused on
developing a deep and meaningful relationship with this person. We're
trying to communicate something that's important to us. So we
use the acronym D, D, EA, R. So I'm going
(24:19):
to tell you what each of those stands for. So
D stands for describe. Your first sentence is going to
be describing the situation. So let me come up with
an example. Your boss asks you to do this extra work,
but it's four forty five and you're meant to be
clocking off in in fifteen minutes. Maybe not too dissimilar
(24:40):
to what the person at the start of the episode
was talking about working till eleven PM at night. Right, okay,
So D stands for describe, describe the situation. Hi Bob,
you've asked me as them I could think of in
the moment. Hi Bob, you've asked me to do this
(25:01):
work and get these documents completed by first thing tomorrow morning.
But it's now four thirty. E for express, This is
where we use our eye statements to say what we think,
what we feel, what our opinion is. I think it's
(25:22):
gonna be a bit of a push for me to
get these done by first thing tomorrow morning. A is assert.
We assert what we want or what we would like.
I would really love it if you could just give
me an extra, say half a day, and maybe I
could get these to you by noon tomorrow. R stands
(25:45):
for reinforce. We want to tell that person why they
should get on board with our request, why it's going
to be good for them and for us. If I
could get these to you by noon, it would take
a lot of the pressure off me, and I think
I'd be able to do a better quality job and
not rush through the process. So what that sounds like
overall would be something like this, Hi, Bob, I know
(26:08):
you've given me these documents and you said you want
them by first thing tomorrow. I think that's going to
be a bit of a stretch for me, and I'm
not going to get them in time. What I would
like instead is maybe if I could get these to
you by twelve pm mid day tomorrow, that would be
really helpful for me. It takes some of the pressure off,
and I actually think I'd be able to do a
much better job of the documents So.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
It's really interesting when you were saying that, is that
you didn't say sorry at all.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I didn't say sorry. No, I didn't apologize.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
See, this is what's going to be.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
I find quite challenging because I feel like for myself,
but I can speak like I've witnessed in you so
many women, it's so easy to keep saying sorry, especially
saying sorry to request from someone that is of a
higher power than you in the workplace. So it sounds
like that can be challenging, like it's a muscle, right,
Like this might take time.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, and look, I'm not anti as sorry, right, So
if someone wanted to do that dear conversation and say, look,
I'm really sorry, but I don't think I'm going to
get this done by the end of the day, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't say, like, how dare you say sorry? You
have nothing to apologize for? Maybe you have nothing to
apologize for. But I think we can use sorry in
a way that is polite and sort of you know,
(27:21):
demonstrates respect for one another. What we don't want to
do is over apologize, right. We don't want to be
so guilt written and so apologetic that every sentence has
a sorry in it. We don't want to do that.
But if we drop a sorry in there, I don't
think that's the end of the world either. The other
thing we don't want to do, which you might notice
when I did the dear, is keep it short and simple.
(27:43):
We don't need to over explain ourselves. I'm not going
to go to Bob and be like, but I have
this task, and I have this task, and then I'll
have to get in really early tomorrow morning if I
have to finish it by ah, Bob, don't care. Bob's busy.
It got shit to do, right, Just like get to
the point, keep it simple. I often say max one
sentence per letter, describe, express, assert, reinforce, and only use
(28:06):
one simple sentence for each of those.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
So then what happened? So we've got the dear technique.
Now we're going to start using it. But what's going
to happen now, especially with you've been in the workplace,
then you've always said yes. So now you're setting your boundaries.
You know, you know your worth and Bob's kind of geting.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Triggered by that.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
You know, how do you reset that dynamic? Because it
is going to bring up stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Right, Yes, change rocks the boat, right, And if we're
in any kind of dynamic with someone and one person
changes from how they've been consistently showing up, that rocks
the boat a little bit. We feel that, And so
Bob might be surprised that all of a sudden we're
saying I'm not actually going to be able to do
this thing that you're asking me for, or at least
(28:54):
I'm not going to be able to do it in
the timeframe that you're asking. So again, this is where
we might want to consider negotiation. So there's something to
be said for boundaries, for being able to communicate boundaries.
But just like I'm asking Bob to be open to
an alternative, I need to be open to an alternative, right,
(29:15):
So if I'm asking Bob to be flexible, I've got
to be willing to be flexible as well. If Bob
comes back to me and says, twelve o'clock just isn't
going to cut it because I've got a ten o'clock
meeting that I need those documents for, then I might
come back and say, okay, well, I'll do it first
thing tomorrow morning. But it means this other thing you've
asked me to do might not get done till the
end of the day. Is that okay? Right, We've got
(29:37):
to be able to engage in healthy negotiation, especially in
the workplace where we're trying to get tasks done.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
I think this is really great because so often when
we set boundaries that can be a one way.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
This is how it is.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
But I think it's also quite mature to have that
back and forth and come to a middle ground too. Okay,
So the second technique, what do we do when we're
noticing we're burning out?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
We've got to do something, yes, because burnout doesn't just
go away, right. We might have moments in our working
life where we're just not feeling it that day and
that's okay, But burnout isn't one of those things where
we just kind of wake up and it's a bit better.
We actually need to do something different. So my first
tip is, don't keep doing the same thing if it's
(30:25):
not working for you. I encourage people to take a
step back, a step away from work. Now. This could
be literally taking some time off, or it could be
taking some time over a weekend or on a day
off to really reflect on where work sits. In the
bigger picture of your life, and more specifically, not just
(30:48):
where work sits, but where this specific work that's causing
you burnout sits in the bigger picture of your life.
Is it worth the stress? Is it worth waking up
in the morning feeling exhausted and depleted? Is it worth
going through the day feeling like you don't want to
have lunch with your colleagues because everything they say annoys
(31:09):
you because you're burnt out? Is it worth getting to
the end of the day and feeling like you don't
have the energy to go to dinner with your friends right?
Is what you're doing at work worth it? And I
think we actually need space and time away from work
to really reflect and ask ourselves those questions. That could
be the weekend, it could be days off. If you're
(31:32):
experiencing signs and symptoms of burnout consistently, I would absolutely
be recommending you seek out some sort of professional support.
Chronic stress can absolutely negatively impact our mental health but
also physically our body. If we have elevated levels of
cortisol and stress for too long, we are not going
(31:53):
to feel well right, And so that's where we might
need to speak with a GP we might need to
speak with a therapist, a psychologist, someone who's going to
be able to walk us through how to make some
changes in our life because the burnout is not sustainable.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Can you come back from burnout at work? Like, can
you get back to that place where you're feeling good
and nourished and ready to go?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yes? If it's in the same workplace, though, I'd be
asking some questions, and what I'd encourage someone to do
during that time away from work is try and unpack.
Is it the workplace or is it me? Or is
it both? Often it's an interaction effect, right, But is
(32:38):
it that this workplace has such unrealistic demands that no
matter what I do, I'm going to walk back in
and probably pretty quickly feel burnt out again? Or am
I contributing something to this dynamic? Am I doing too
much people pleasing? Have I got too much work fomo
going on? Where I say yes to everything and want
(32:58):
to get involved in every project. Is it that I'm
choosing to take the laptop home at the end of
the day and keep checking emails until two o'clock in
the morning when you know no one's telling me to
do that, or placing that expectation on me. So how
much is it the job, how much is it me,
and how much of the two interacting. If it really
is the workplace, then I would really question whether you
(33:21):
could re enter that workplace and not very quickly experienced
burnout again.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
So with these techniques that you've given us today, a
sert of communication, the deer technique that takes practice.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Right, Absolutely, I don't expect that people simply after hearing
this episode of the podcast will be able to walk
into Bob's office and just do a deer like like
it's nothing right. It absolutely takes practice, and actually what
I recommend to start off this process is try doing
these in written form first, So if you need to
(33:56):
have a verbal communication with Bob, write out for yourself
the D, the E, the A, and the R before
you go into his office. But you can use this
via text via emails to communicate with colleagues as well
if you get an e mail request. It's a really
good opportunity to practice putting a deer into writing. So
(34:16):
absolutely start with the situations that feel easier and with
practice it'll become more natural.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
After the show break, we're going to hear from one
of you our listeners, who is struggling to set boundaries
with their work friends. Stay with us, Bibby, bib Bibby,
I'm having a serious Christy to.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
The BERB having a crisis.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Okay, guys, you know what time it is. It's our
segment for our BRB having a crisis where doctor Anastasia
gives advice to one of you our listeners. Today we're
hearing from Laura.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I Grabe drinks with the colleague pretty regularly, and I
really enjoy hanging out with them at work. They're super
easy to talk to and really fun to be around,
but I wouldn't really say that we're close friends outside
of the office. With my birthday coming up, I'm feeling
a little awkward about not inviting them. I really want
to keep some separation between my work life and my
personal life, but I'm not really too sure how to
(35:16):
do that without it feeling weird. Is it possible to
have a good relationship at work without feeling like you
have to include them in everything?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
And then if they.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Do feel lift out? How do I explain my boundaries
without making it feel awkward?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Or I feel the desire to want to keep everyone
happy coming in here first, I just want to provide
some reassurance that it is totally okay to keep some
separation between work and personal life. As much as you
enjoy spending time with your colleagues and feel like you
get along with them, you don't have to bring them
(35:52):
into that more personal part of your world. Here's something
I find quite useful to think about when reflecting on
where different people kind of fit in our life. If
we think about our social network and friends, different people
serve different roles in our social sphere. Right, So we
(36:13):
have the work colleagues, it's great to have a coffee
or a cup of tea with them, you know, in
the afternoon at work and chat about what's happening in
the office. We've got our work friends. We've got our besties,
the friends who are super close that maybe we've known
for years that we feel really connected to, that know
all our secrets and we know we can come to
them at any time of the day or night and
(36:34):
tears and they'll be there to comfort us. Right, we've
got those really close friends. We might have the friends
who are a fun time. Right, we go out with
them on a Friday night, have some drinks, whatever, we
might do, and we go out with them, and they're
fun to be around. They're not the person we devold
our secrets too, but they're fun. We might have the
people who share similar interests with us, you know, the
(36:57):
people who like to go on hikes, get together and
go on those hikes. Again, they're not your work colleagues,
they're not your besties. They're not the Friday night party people.
They're the hike people. So I guess what I'm trying
to get at is it's okay to have different friends
and social connections that fit in different spaces in your life.
And we don't need to feel like we have to
(37:18):
bring all those people together or that everyone has to
fill that same role if they're our friends.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
What about the second half of what Laura was speaking
to around the other person expressing the disappointment to her,
Like what should she do there.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
If they come up and say like, oh, I wanted
to celebrate your birthday with you too. Yeah, again, I
come back to what we're talking about in the technique,
the negotiation part, right, So maybe that's an opportunity to
be like, how about we grab a muffin with a
candle and in the morning tea break and celebrate my
birthday together that way, if you want to do something
(37:53):
you know, or maybe we grab a drink after work
this afternoon and have a cheers to the birthday. There's
other ways that you can celebrate with your friends and
have them involved and invited into your life without necessarily
having to invite them to your birthday celebration.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
I love that, and please let us know how you go, Laura,
good luck. Okay, So I think this is going to
be one of those episodes people come back to because,
let's be honest, workplace boundaries are so tricky. But you've
(38:28):
given us a lot of great guidance today. Can you
give us a recap like a little cheat sheet?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Can.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
First up, we might have a natural tendency to be
agreeable in the workplace, but this can be changed. Second,
assertive communication definitely takes some practice. Third, remember to respect
both yourself and the other person when being assertive. Fourth,
(38:55):
use the dear method if you want some extra help
in knowing what to say, describe, express, assert reinforce. And finally,
if you find yourself feeling burnt out, take some time
away from work, seeks professional help and reflect on your
overall work life balance guys. Next week we are going
(39:17):
to discuss a topic that I know you've heard of
because it's one of those words that gets used a
lot in pop culture, but not necessarily the right way.
We are going to be talking about narcissists.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
Oh, it's gonna be so good. I'm so excited for it.
If you have a burning question, there's a few ways
to get in touch with us.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Links are in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal history. The
executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I'm a Shani Dante and I'm.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people discussed
have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If
this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we
have links for many more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(40:23):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Thanks for listening,
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on Sorry Helen, stay
late tonight. Yeah, I just realized I'm going to miss
them last train, I think. And also it's my fiance's birthday.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Don't worry about me, honestly, I'll come or just sleep
on Excel.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
For Mama Mia.
Speaker 4 (00:39):
I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to But are you happy?
Because self diagnosing in the group chat isn't therapy?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
And I'm doctor Anastagia hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Now have you ever said yes
to your boss when what you really wanted to say
was no? Or when was the last time you agreed
with a colleague even when your gut was telling you
that they were wrong.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
I feel like if I could raise not only one hand,
but all of my limbs right now stress how relatable
this subject is, I would look.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
To be fair. My hand is up to We've all
done this at some point, but a lot of us
find that it can become quite a habit or a
coping mechanism. And this is what we call people pleasing.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
People pleasing in the workplace. So much to unpack in
this let's do it so a few episodes back. Back
in episode two, we learned how to say no to
the people we love most. But today we're going to
be talking about how to say no in the workplace
because we.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Know that there is a difference. There isn't there.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Absolutely there's a similarity of both involve us saying no,
using our assertive skills and trying to do so in
a kind and respectful way, But they're really different situations
that we might navigate differently.
Speaker 4 (01:59):
So, starting from the top, why do we say yes
so much in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (02:06):
There's not one clear answer to this, ye, right, so
there's a few different reasons. Absolutely. So we've talked a
little bit about this before, but we have a natural
desire to please, and we've talked about how from an
evolutionary perspective, this is fundamental for a sense of safety
and protection. We want to be liked, We want to
be part of the pack, and from prehistoric times that
(02:28):
was crucial for our safety to be liked by other
people because we'd then be protected by them. Right. So
this is a very kind of primal biological part of
why we might nowadays say yes in certain situations we
want to be liked. But there's other reasons too. We
might say yes when we actually mean no in the
workplace because we want to avoid conflict. No one likes conflict.
(02:52):
I don't like conflicts. I don't either, so it makes sense.
But it might be that some people are more sort
of conflict avoidant than others. People might be anxious to
say no. We're not sure how other people are going
to respond. We're not sure how our boss is going
to take it if we say no to them, so
that can be a bit anxiety provoked. Sometimes people have
(03:13):
what I would say is a false expectation that people
pleasing is going to actually help them get ahead in
their career. If I say yes to everything, if I'm
the person that takes on every task and does it
as best as I can and livers everything on time,
then I'm going to get ahead. And to that, I say, maybe, right,
(03:34):
Maybe that's part of it, but probably what you'll find
is that you get more and more work because you're
the person who's reliable and always says yes. So you're
going to be the go to person when someone has
a task that they want someone to do because we
know you'll say yes.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
So interesting you're saying that, because I can imagine so
many people tuning in now listening. And also I see
this in myself, especially when we're young and we're at
an early stage in our career, like we do feel
like we do need to say yes. You know, I
hear this term all the time around. You've got to
earn your stripes, you know. So it is I like
that you said maybe because there is both sides to it.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, and there's definitely that part of us needing to
kind of prove ourselves. I want to say that right,
prove ourselves in the workplace, show our boss, our colleagues,
whoever it might be, that we can get the job done,
that we're willing to jump in two feet and get
involved in projects, whatever it might be. But there's a
difference between being willing and people pleasing and not being
(04:33):
able to be assertive and say no when we need to.
And that's a healthy boundary for all of us to
be able to learn. And it kind of relates to
what I would say is a personality trait that some
people have around agreeableness.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Can you tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
That sounds interesting, Yes, So I'm gonna we'll do a
little bit of personality one oh one. Right, So there's
a model of personality that's got the acronym ocean, so
it refers to different personality traits that we all have,
and we sit on a spectrum of right. So the
O stands for openness. Now open and are we to
(05:11):
new experiences, to new ways of thinking to other people.
Some of us are very open, some of us are
more closed. So the O stands for open. The C
stands for conscientiousness. Where do I sit on a spectrum
of how conscientious I am in life? The E stands
for extraversion. We've probably many of us have heard of
(05:32):
extraversion and introversion. Again, that's somewhere on a spectrum that
will sit. The A stands for agreeableness. So some of
us are very agreeable. Where yes, people we like to please.
We don't like conflict. On the other end of that
is antagonism. So people who are more hostile, who will
often say no, who put their own needs first, And
(05:53):
for anyone listening out there who wants to know more
about that, tune in to our next upcoming episode where
we talk about narcissism because that very much relates to
this flavor of antagonism. And then the final one N
in our model stands for neuroticism. So kind of like
how anxiously pro we are to being sort of on
some sort of spectrum of neuroticism. That's our personality one
(06:16):
oh one. But I guess what we're focusing here is
specifically around that personality trait of agreeableness. So people pleasing
in the workplace is often linked to someone who is
high on the personality trait of agreeableness.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
This is I actually never knew about this model, so
I'm learning all of it in real time because as
you're talking, I think about friends in my life or
you know, people that I've coached in the past, and
when it comes to say no, Like, you can have
all the tools in the toolkit and have all the
self awareness, but sometimes I do wonder there are some
people that just better at say no.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
So is that a personality thing? Like some people.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Genuinely that's just how they are, Like is that fixed?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Can you change that?
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Good question? Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:05):
And no?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah, okay, So there are parts of our personality that
are very integral to who we are and are not
easy to change. Right, They're pretty foundational and fundamental. If
we think about this concept of temperament, and when we
think about young children, some young kids are just born
(07:26):
more anxious than other kids. We see this even from
the zero to kind of two year old period in
a young child's life. Babies and kids are born with
different temperaments. So there is a part of it that
really is quite biological and can be hard to change.
But it's not to say that we can't learn skills
(07:47):
to be able to navigate that. If I am someone
who's more agreeable or someone who's more neurotic, or whatever
it might be, I can learn skills to manage the
part of me that might be that default that doesn't
always help me in a situation.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
This is really good to know.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
So right now, so we've kind of unpacked a lot
of reasons why we say yes in the workplace. Something
I'm keen to hear more about is like, what are
the consequences? Like what happens if we keep saying yes
in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (08:20):
We get more work? But what's the consequence of that? Yeah,
So I think this is where we get into the
topic of burnout, right, And I think it's a really
important one for us to talk about because we are
seeing increasing rates of burnout in the workplace, and we're
actually seeing a lot of young people report that they're
(08:41):
experiencing burnout early on in their careers. And so I
do think about how much this might be linked to
being early in your career wanting to say yes, maybe
saying yes a little bit too much, but then also
getting burnt out really quickly and.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
It's really hard. And I think this kind of weaves
back into some of the things. Of the reasons why
we say yes all the time is because we do
create all these stories. And I had been like, Okay,
but if I say no, I'm going to miss this opportunity,
someone else is going to take it. And then we
create these compelling narratives that keeps us stuck insane.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Yes, yes, the work fomo'. That's another reason why we might.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Say, do you do you feel the work? Fomo?
Speaker 2 (09:25):
I am so guilty of the world. Oh, if there's
an exciting project, or like I do a lot of
research with university, right, someone's doing a project that sounds
interesting to me, I'm like, oh, do I have time
to take this on. I really want to get involved,
and it's the phomo. I'm like, that sounds fun, that
sounds exciting, it sounds interesting. I want to jump in,
and I'll be really sad if I don't. But you've learned?
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Do you have you learnt the balance now of like
discerning or is that just a.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Constant journey for you?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
It's an ongoing journey. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
Yeah, it's all about being authentic here.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
You know, we give all the tools and the tricks
of the trade, but we're still embodying it. So okay,
So coming back to it, you did mention burnout, so
and I think it is very relatable and it's really
you spoke to the fact around a lot of young
people burning out.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
What is burnout like? Unpack it for us?
Speaker 2 (10:17):
So, burnout is essentially both a physical and psychological state
that we can enter where we experience extreme exhaustion. And
this is often related to the workplace, but I also
want to say it doesn't have to be work specific, right,
We can burn out in different ways in any kind
(10:38):
of role where we feel like we've got some sort
of pressure or expectation on us, or we're really devoting
ourselves to it. So parents can experience parental burnout. If
we're caring for a sick or an elderly family member,
we can experience care a burnout. If I'm someone who
advocates for a cause I'm thinking of, you know, the
(10:59):
grace Tames of the world who are there like fighting
the good fight on the front line, but consistently having
to advocate. Those people can burn out as well. So
burnout is not just works specific. It's this sort of
fatigue and intense exhaustion that we can feel from stress
and repeated stress.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
So what does that actually look like?
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Signs and symptoms to look out for. Okay, So three
key categories of symptoms. Okay, So the first one is
around energy, So energy depletion, exhaustion of energy. I feel
like when I get up in the morning, even if
I've had the best night sleep, I don't have energy
to get up and go and do the thing I
(11:42):
need to do, go to work, do the tasks I
need to do. So the first one's about this sort
of depletion of energy. The second one is around mentality
and kind of our outlook towards our work. So we
might become really quite cynical. We might become really quite
detached from our work. We might be really sort of apathetic.
(12:04):
We might become really resentful to the people in the office.
We go into the office and people are having their
you know, morning cup of coffee and having a laugh,
and we're like, what are they laughing about? You know,
and it's probably got nothing to do with the fact
that they're laughing, But we're burnt out, so we become
quite cynical and almost resentful towards other people. And then
the last sort of category of symptoms is around our productivity,
(12:29):
but also our feeling of our sense of accomplishment. So
it might be that we are actually doing less than
we usually do or what we need to do, but
we also don't feel that sense of satisfaction and accomplishment
when we do achieve tasks at work.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
As you're talking about the signs and symptoms, I'm just
reflecting and being like, wow, okay, yeah, I was burnt
out then. So it is a lot of bringing self
awareness to all of this, you know, balancing all with kindness.
So I'm really keen to hear because as you're talking
about the signs and symptoms, one of them is around
like exhaustion, and you know, essentially not.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Feeling it in the job.
Speaker 4 (13:06):
So how can you tell the difference between you being
burnt out versus I'm actually just lacking passion and purpose
in this job.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
We certainly don't have to love our job, and we
certainly don't have to feel like it's our identity or
it's our bigger purpose in life. Right, So it's not
to say that we need to turn up to work
enthusiastic and super happy to be there. And I couldn't
think of anywhere I would rather be than at worked today,
even though the sun shining and a beach would be nice. Right,
So that's not necessarily what we're aiming for. But we
(13:37):
don't want to feel like we are exhausted to the
point where everything feels like a struggle at work. I
open my emails and I see ten emails sitting there,
and I go, good lord, I couldn't think of anything worse.
Right now. We don't want that experience. We don't want
an experience of resentment and cynicism, right. And this is
(13:57):
a really big one. I think this is actually the
biggest one to spot internally. If people are wanting to
do some self reflection, there's a difference between turning up
to work and being like, it's a job. That's fine,
it pays the bills. That's that's what I'm here for. Right.
That's a kind of like neutral emotional attachment to my work.
There's a big difference between feeling like, you know, what,
(14:19):
job's a job, it pays the bills. I rock up,
I do my thing, I go home. It is what
it is, right. That's quite a neutral attachment to work.
I'm kind of neither here nor there about it. That's
very different to feeling cynical and resentful to my work
and to the workplace and to the people that I
work with as well. So that's a really big indicator
(14:41):
that if you're not burnt out, you might be somewhere
on a pathway to burn out.
Speaker 4 (14:48):
Yeah. And I think it's really interesting too because as
you're speaking to it, it's also good for all of
us if you are in a workplace to be mindful
as well, Like, you know, we don't actually know what's
going on. For other people, they might be a little
bit more you know, off the cuff with comments and
things like that. And I think it's important to bring
a bit more empathy in the workplace too, So I
guess another question I have is what happens if people
(15:12):
pleasing is rewarded in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
So the question I would ask is how is it
being rewarded? Right? So when you say it's being rewarded,
my immediate thought is what's reward Right? Is reward that
this person is managing to make leaps and bounds in
their career because of their people pleasing, or is reward
like they're getting more attention from the boss. But you know,
(15:40):
what's their goal? Right? Is their goal to sort of
like move up the ranks in the company, or is
their goal to sort of get enough experience to move
to another workplace? What's the goal for that person and
is their behavior helping them achieve that? Because I think
that's really different to do. I just feel like I'm
getting recognition, which feels good, but practically for the purposes
(16:04):
of my career, maybe doesn't achieve a whole lot, Like, yeah,
it's useful, but maybe it's not getting me the pay rise,
or maybe it's not getting me that promotion that I'm seeking.
So I question this, this kind of notion of people
pleasing being rewarded because I would want to know.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
How, Yeah, because it's interesting too, and something I've observed
with working across generations. It's kind of like I find
with the gen X and like younger generations, there's different
kind of ways of working. I feel like I find
with young people that I've worked with, they're probably better
it's sending boundaries, whereas I find like a lot of
(16:40):
gen X is they look at that and kind of
question it. And it's not in like a one's right
or wrong. It's just we've grown up, you know, working differently.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yes, And I think we can sometimes overcorrect as well, right,
Like we see this happen in society all the time.
And I would be cautious and curiously asking people who
are early in their careers to yes, set the boundaries.
No way, and you're going to say no to a
(17:12):
boss when you're being asked to do something. And at
the same time, there are probably gonna be situations where
quote unquote people pleasing or being agreeable or stepping into
something with a willingness to maybe go a little bit
above and beyond what we normally would is actually going
to be a good thing. And to do that every
so often isn't bad. We're not being taken advantage of
(17:34):
where not as long as we don't feel like we
have to do it. If we can do it with willingness,
and we can do it in moderation, then great.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
And it is it's kind of like, yes, still work
hard because sometimes I think we can weaponize the whole
boundary thing and being like, oh, I don't know, but
it's important to work hard and build that grit and
muscle and something. You know, I'm really grateful of you know,
I'm still young, but I'm grateful I've worked really hard in.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
The first ten years.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
But something I'm also keen to unpack too, Like, especially
people who are in the workplace and they've got employees
and maybe younger or may have some people please behave
What would you say to them to make sure they're
not taking advantage of people pleases in the workplace?
Speaker 2 (18:17):
Are we the problem is what you're asking? Am I
the problems? Oh?
Speaker 4 (18:23):
God?
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Well, So this is the first thing I'm going to say,
because I think this is a complex question that calls
for self reflection. The boundaries that we might be willing
to set for ourselves are not what we should expect
other people to set for themselves. So I am someone
you know, I'm going to put my hand up and
admit I will sometimes work in the evening. You know,
(18:47):
I've got a business of what different things I do.
There are evenings that I will work, right, I'm okay
with that. Like I love my job, I love what
I do. I'm okay with working some longer hours. Sometimes
that doesn't mean that I can expect that from my
employees or from other people that work with me. So
just because a boundary is okay for me, doesn't mean
(19:12):
it's okay for someone else. So I think it's always
really important to remember that everyone's going to have a
different sense of what works for them and how it
works for them, And we don't want to ever be
in a situation where we're imposing our way of working
onto someone else.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
So it's really interesting because when I'm hearing is that
so often I feel like burnout is rewarded, you know,
in the hustle culture, you know, work the longest hours.
But actually what I'm hearing is that it's doing a
complete opposite and no one's giving you that reward when
you're lying down in bed completely burnt out. Exactly right,
What are the pros of agreeableness.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I love this question because agreeable people are lovely. Yes,
they're the light. They're empathetic, they're kind, they're great to
work with, great at collaboration. Right, They're just really lovely
people who are great at building relationships. So if you're
working with someone who's agreeable, and you're working in an
(20:11):
industry or a sector where building relationships is really important,
your agreeable colleagues are going to do really well at
that and be a really great asset in the workplace.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So it's not all bad.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
It's not all bad.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
There's good things to it.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
After this shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to teach us
a method to help us stop our people pleasing in
its tracks. Stay with us, Okay, Atastasia, I'm going to
cheat a little and I'm going to ask you for
two techniques today. The first one is how do we
say no in the workplace that doesn't, you know, jeopardize
(20:48):
our career? And the second one is what do you
do if you're noticing signs of burnout. Let's start with
the first one. How do we say no?
Speaker 2 (20:56):
How do we say no? Yep, beyond just saying no.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yes, we need more, we need more guidance.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
So what I'm going to do is ground this technique
in the concept of assertive now, right, So we hear
assertiveness talked about, but what is assertive communication? Assertiveness is
fundamentally all about respect. Okay. So if we think about
communication styles as existing on some sort of spectrum. Down
(21:27):
one end of the spectrum, we have passive communication, so
this is where where people pleases, we say yes when
we may know. We might be quite timid in our approach.
Our tone of voice might be quite soft and a
bit apologetic. So this is our more passive style of communication.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have aggressive communication.
(21:51):
So this is very strong, very loud, maybe a bit
in someone's personal space, quite direct. You're not using our
pleas and thank yous, you know, this sort of aggressive
style of communicating with others. And in the middle we
have assertiveness. So where does respect come into this. If
we're passive in our communication style, the person we don't
(22:13):
respect is ourselves. If we're aggressive in our communication style,
the person we're not respecting is whoever we're talking to.
Assertive communication is the ability to speak with someone where
we respect them and we respect ourselves. So if we
(22:34):
break down what does assertive communication look sound, feel like.
It's direct, it's clear, we don't have too many arms
and h's. We use eye statements to communicate I think this,
I feel this, not you did this. You are this.
(22:56):
Our body language where confidence, where our shoulders are rolled back,
we stand up tall. We have a kind but confident
tone of voice. We feel comfortable making eye contact, but
we're not staring someone down right, So when we think
about assertive communication, it's important to think about how we
(23:16):
hold that assertiveness in our body, in our face, in
terms of our facial expressions, and in our tone of voice.
Speaker 4 (23:23):
This is really good because it's nice to get these
dot points conceptually, and I'm wondering if there's also a
way to further break it down, like an example of
what we actually say next time in the workplace.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Yes, so I'm going to teach all our listeners a
four step method of what to say when you're trying
to be assertive in an interaction. Now, this is great
for the workplace, it can translate outside of the workplace
as well, So don't feel like it's just for the workplace.
But we want to use this method when we're trying
(23:59):
to achieve some sort of objective. We have a goal
of what we're trying to communicate. We're not focused on
developing a deep and meaningful relationship with this person. We're
trying to communicate something that's important to us. So we
use the acronym D, D, EA, R. So I'm going
(24:19):
to tell you what each of those stands for. So
D stands for describe. Your first sentence is going to
be describing the situation. So let me come up with
an example. Your boss asks you to do this extra work,
but it's four forty five and you're meant to be
clocking off in in fifteen minutes. Maybe not too dissimilar
(24:40):
to what the person at the start of the episode
was talking about working till eleven PM at night. Right, okay,
So D stands for describe, describe the situation. Hi Bob,
you've asked me as them I could think of in
the moment. Hi Bob, you've asked me to do this
(25:01):
work and get these documents completed by first thing tomorrow morning.
But it's now four thirty. E for express, This is
where we use our eye statements to say what we think,
what we feel, what our opinion is. I think it's
(25:22):
gonna be a bit of a push for me to
get these done by first thing tomorrow morning. A is assert.
We assert what we want or what we would like.
I would really love it if you could just give
me an extra, say half a day, and maybe I
could get these to you by noon tomorrow. R stands
(25:45):
for reinforce. We want to tell that person why they
should get on board with our request, why it's going
to be good for them and for us. If I
could get these to you by noon, it would take
a lot of the pressure off me, and I think
I'd be able to do a better quality job and
not rush through the process. So what that sounds like
overall would be something like this, Hi, Bob, I know
(26:08):
you've given me these documents and you said you want
them by first thing tomorrow. I think that's going to
be a bit of a stretch for me, and I'm
not going to get them in time. What I would
like instead is maybe if I could get these to
you by twelve pm mid day tomorrow, that would be
really helpful for me. It takes some of the pressure off,
and I actually think I'd be able to do a
much better job of the documents So.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
It's really interesting when you were saying that, is that
you didn't say sorry at all.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I didn't say sorry. No, I didn't apologize.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
See, this is what's going to be.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
I find quite challenging because I feel like for myself,
but I can speak like I've witnessed in you so
many women, it's so easy to keep saying sorry, especially
saying sorry to request from someone that is of a
higher power than you in the workplace. So it sounds
like that can be challenging, like it's a muscle, right,
Like this might take time.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Yeah, and look, I'm not anti as sorry, right, So
if someone wanted to do that dear conversation and say, look,
I'm really sorry, but I don't think I'm going to
get this done by the end of the day, I wouldn't.
I wouldn't say, like, how dare you say sorry? You
have nothing to apologize for? Maybe you have nothing to
apologize for. But I think we can use sorry in
a way that is polite and sort of you know,
(27:21):
demonstrates respect for one another. What we don't want to
do is over apologize, right. We don't want to be
so guilt written and so apologetic that every sentence has
a sorry in it. We don't want to do that.
But if we drop a sorry in there, I don't
think that's the end of the world either. The other
thing we don't want to do, which you might notice
when I did the dear, is keep it short and simple.
(27:43):
We don't need to over explain ourselves. I'm not going
to go to Bob and be like, but I have
this task, and I have this task, and then I'll
have to get in really early tomorrow morning if I
have to finish it by ah, Bob, don't care. Bob's busy.
It got shit to do, right, Just like get to
the point, keep it simple. I often say max one
sentence per letter, describe, express, assert, reinforce, and only use
(28:06):
one simple sentence for each of those.
Speaker 4 (28:10):
So then what happened? So we've got the dear technique.
Now we're going to start using it. But what's going
to happen now, especially with you've been in the workplace,
then you've always said yes. So now you're setting your boundaries.
You know, you know your worth and Bob's kind of geting.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Triggered by that.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
You know, how do you reset that dynamic? Because it
is going to bring up stuff.
Speaker 2 (28:32):
Right, Yes, change rocks the boat, right, And if we're
in any kind of dynamic with someone and one person
changes from how they've been consistently showing up, that rocks
the boat a little bit. We feel that, And so
Bob might be surprised that all of a sudden we're
saying I'm not actually going to be able to do
this thing that you're asking me for, or at least
(28:54):
I'm not going to be able to do it in
the timeframe that you're asking. So again, this is where
we might want to consider negotiation. So there's something to
be said for boundaries, for being able to communicate boundaries.
But just like I'm asking Bob to be open to
an alternative, I need to be open to an alternative, right,
(29:15):
So if I'm asking Bob to be flexible, I've got
to be willing to be flexible as well. If Bob
comes back to me and says, twelve o'clock just isn't
going to cut it because I've got a ten o'clock
meeting that I need those documents for, then I might
come back and say, okay, well, I'll do it first
thing tomorrow morning. But it means this other thing you've
asked me to do might not get done till the
end of the day. Is that okay? Right, We've got
(29:37):
to be able to engage in healthy negotiation, especially in
the workplace where we're trying to get tasks done.
Speaker 4 (29:43):
I think this is really great because so often when
we set boundaries that can be a one way.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
This is how it is.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
But I think it's also quite mature to have that
back and forth and come to a middle ground too. Okay,
So the second technique, what do we do when we're
noticing we're burning out?
Speaker 2 (30:02):
We've got to do something, yes, because burnout doesn't just
go away, right. We might have moments in our working
life where we're just not feeling it that day and
that's okay, But burnout isn't one of those things where
we just kind of wake up and it's a bit better.
We actually need to do something different. So my first
tip is, don't keep doing the same thing if it's
(30:25):
not working for you. I encourage people to take a
step back, a step away from work. Now. This could
be literally taking some time off, or it could be
taking some time over a weekend or on a day
off to really reflect on where work sits. In the
bigger picture of your life, and more specifically, not just
(30:48):
where work sits, but where this specific work that's causing
you burnout sits in the bigger picture of your life.
Is it worth the stress? Is it worth waking up
in the morning feeling exhausted and depleted? Is it worth
going through the day feeling like you don't want to
have lunch with your colleagues because everything they say annoys
(31:09):
you because you're burnt out? Is it worth getting to
the end of the day and feeling like you don't
have the energy to go to dinner with your friends right?
Is what you're doing at work worth it? And I
think we actually need space and time away from work
to really reflect and ask ourselves those questions. That could
be the weekend, it could be days off. If you're
(31:32):
experiencing signs and symptoms of burnout consistently, I would absolutely
be recommending you seek out some sort of professional support.
Chronic stress can absolutely negatively impact our mental health but
also physically our body. If we have elevated levels of
cortisol and stress for too long, we are not going
(31:53):
to feel well right, And so that's where we might
need to speak with a GP we might need to
speak with a therapist, a psychologist, someone who's going to
be able to walk us through how to make some
changes in our life because the burnout is not sustainable.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
Can you come back from burnout at work? Like, can
you get back to that place where you're feeling good
and nourished and ready to go?
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yes? If it's in the same workplace, though, I'd be
asking some questions, and what I'd encourage someone to do
during that time away from work is try and unpack.
Is it the workplace or is it me? Or is
it both? Often it's an interaction effect, right, But is
(32:38):
it that this workplace has such unrealistic demands that no
matter what I do, I'm going to walk back in
and probably pretty quickly feel burnt out again? Or am
I contributing something to this dynamic? Am I doing too
much people pleasing? Have I got too much work fomo
going on? Where I say yes to everything and want
(32:58):
to get involved in every project. Is it that I'm
choosing to take the laptop home at the end of
the day and keep checking emails until two o'clock in
the morning when you know no one's telling me to
do that, or placing that expectation on me. So how
much is it the job, how much is it me,
and how much of the two interacting. If it really
is the workplace, then I would really question whether you
(33:21):
could re enter that workplace and not very quickly experienced
burnout again.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
So with these techniques that you've given us today, a
sert of communication, the deer technique that takes practice.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Right, Absolutely, I don't expect that people simply after hearing
this episode of the podcast will be able to walk
into Bob's office and just do a deer like like
it's nothing right. It absolutely takes practice, and actually what
I recommend to start off this process is try doing
these in written form first, So if you need to
(33:56):
have a verbal communication with Bob, write out for yourself
the D, the E, the A, and the R before
you go into his office. But you can use this
via text via emails to communicate with colleagues as well
if you get an e mail request. It's a really
good opportunity to practice putting a deer into writing. So
(34:16):
absolutely start with the situations that feel easier and with
practice it'll become more natural.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
After the show break, we're going to hear from one
of you our listeners, who is struggling to set boundaries
with their work friends. Stay with us, Bibby, bib Bibby,
I'm having a serious Christy to.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
The BERB having a crisis.
Speaker 4 (34:41):
Okay, guys, you know what time it is. It's our
segment for our BRB having a crisis where doctor Anastasia
gives advice to one of you our listeners. Today we're
hearing from Laura.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
I Grabe drinks with the colleague pretty regularly, and I
really enjoy hanging out with them at work. They're super
easy to talk to and really fun to be around,
but I wouldn't really say that we're close friends outside
of the office. With my birthday coming up, I'm feeling
a little awkward about not inviting them. I really want
to keep some separation between my work life and my
personal life, but I'm not really too sure how to
(35:16):
do that without it feeling weird. Is it possible to
have a good relationship at work without feeling like you
have to include them in everything?
Speaker 2 (35:25):
And then if they.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Do feel lift out? How do I explain my boundaries
without making it feel awkward?
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Or I feel the desire to want to keep everyone
happy coming in here first, I just want to provide
some reassurance that it is totally okay to keep some
separation between work and personal life. As much as you
enjoy spending time with your colleagues and feel like you
get along with them, you don't have to bring them
(35:52):
into that more personal part of your world. Here's something
I find quite useful to think about when reflecting on
where different people kind of fit in our life. If
we think about our social network and friends, different people
serve different roles in our social sphere. Right, So we
(36:13):
have the work colleagues, it's great to have a coffee
or a cup of tea with them, you know, in
the afternoon at work and chat about what's happening in
the office. We've got our work friends. We've got our besties,
the friends who are super close that maybe we've known
for years that we feel really connected to, that know
all our secrets and we know we can come to
them at any time of the day or night and
(36:34):
tears and they'll be there to comfort us. Right, we've
got those really close friends. We might have the friends
who are a fun time. Right, we go out with
them on a Friday night, have some drinks, whatever, we
might do, and we go out with them, and they're
fun to be around. They're not the person we devold
our secrets too, but they're fun. We might have the
people who share similar interests with us, you know, the
(36:57):
people who like to go on hikes, get together and
go on those hikes. Again, they're not your work colleagues,
they're not your besties. They're not the Friday night party people.
They're the hike people. So I guess what I'm trying
to get at is it's okay to have different friends
and social connections that fit in different spaces in your life.
And we don't need to feel like we have to
(37:18):
bring all those people together or that everyone has to
fill that same role if they're our friends.
Speaker 4 (37:24):
What about the second half of what Laura was speaking
to around the other person expressing the disappointment to her,
Like what should she do there.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
If they come up and say like, oh, I wanted
to celebrate your birthday with you too. Yeah, again, I
come back to what we're talking about in the technique,
the negotiation part, right, So maybe that's an opportunity to
be like, how about we grab a muffin with a
candle and in the morning tea break and celebrate my
birthday together that way, if you want to do something
(37:53):
you know, or maybe we grab a drink after work
this afternoon and have a cheers to the birthday. There's
other ways that you can celebrate with your friends and
have them involved and invited into your life without necessarily
having to invite them to your birthday celebration.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
I love that, and please let us know how you go, Laura,
good luck. Okay, So I think this is going to
be one of those episodes people come back to because,
let's be honest, workplace boundaries are so tricky. But you've
(38:28):
given us a lot of great guidance today. Can you
give us a recap like a little cheat sheet?
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Can.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
First up, we might have a natural tendency to be
agreeable in the workplace, but this can be changed. Second,
assertive communication definitely takes some practice. Third, remember to respect
both yourself and the other person when being assertive. Fourth,
(38:55):
use the dear method if you want some extra help
in knowing what to say, describe, express, assert reinforce. And finally,
if you find yourself feeling burnt out, take some time
away from work, seeks professional help and reflect on your
overall work life balance guys. Next week we are going
(39:17):
to discuss a topic that I know you've heard of
because it's one of those words that gets used a
lot in pop culture, but not necessarily the right way.
We are going to be talking about narcissists.
Speaker 4 (39:30):
Oh, it's gonna be so good. I'm so excited for it.
If you have a burning question, there's a few ways
to get in touch with us.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Links are in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal history. The
executive producer of But Are You Happy is Niama Brown.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Tarlie Blackman is our senior producer.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Sound design and editing by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I'm a Shani Dante and I'm.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Doctor Anastasia Heronus. The names and stories of people discussed
have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity. If
this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you, we
have links for many more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(40:23):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (40:26):
Thanks for listening,
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