November 21, 2025 • 33 mins
Are you someone who just can’t put your phone down?
In this episode of But Are You Happy, clinical psychologist Dr Anastasia Hronis explores how constant phone use can affect both our mental and physical well-being—and what we can do to build healthier habits.
You'll also learn:
- Why our phones are designed to be so addictive
- Whether social media is helping us connect or pulling us further apart
- Simple ways to cut back on screen time
- How to pause the doom-scrolling cycle
Family tech agreements: eSafety website resource.
Watch the podcast on YouTube here.
If you or someone you know needs support, contact Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Both services are available 24/7 for free, confidential mental health support.
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Want to get in touch with us? DM @butareyouhappypod on Instagram or send us a voice memo. Our hosts are ready to hear your dilemmas—think of it as free therapy!
CREDITS:
Hosts: Ashani Dante & Dr Anastasia Hronis
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Audio Producer: Tina Matolov
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
Support the show: https://www.mamamia.com.au/mplus/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to I'm On with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Phone addiction is getting so bad that watching a movie
feels productive. Like I'll scroll on my phone for three hours.
I'll go through TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, whatever it is, and
I'll feel super bad about it. I'll feel fried and
just burnt out. And then I'll decide, you know what,
I want to sit down, relax and watch a three
hour movie. And for some reason, it feels way more
productive than being on your phone. It's like your brain
(00:31):
process is that small screen is bad, big screen good.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to
But Are You Happy? The show for anyone whose idea
of relaxation is watching true crime with a weighted blanket.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Are you someone who's never been
able to put their phone down?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yep, I'm definitely guilty of that one.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
We can all be. But there comes a point where
being on our phone too much can really negatively impact
our mental health and how we spend our time. So
we're gonna unpack that today.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Let's get into it. Okay, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I did have a little giggle to myself as we
were preparing for this episode because the phone is fucking
up our lives and yeah, it's laughable because it's so relatable.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Why is it fucking up our lives at aesthesia?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, well, let me jump in right off the start
and say, it's not the phone, it's what's on the
phone and what we're doing on our phones. Right, because
if we think back to the days of the quote
unquote dumb phone as they call it now, right, the
Nokia flip phone or whatever it was. I remember I
had a phone back in the day. And what I do.
(01:48):
I played Snake. Yeah, it got really good at Snake.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
What a throwback.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
That is so true. Yeah, Snake, that like one game
black and white, no color. Yes, a lot of buttons
you had to press, and then what you text a
friend and you had to type out every letter.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Oh my gosh, it is so true that you say that,
I fully forgot that we did that.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah. And while we might have used phones a lot
back then, we weren't like addicted to them in the
same way that we are now. I certainly didn't have
kind of these urges to be like, oh my god,
I can't wait to like pick up my phone and
play the next game of snake. Right, it just wasn't
that exciting or entire sing or you know, sending a text.
(02:30):
It took longer. So you know, part of the part
of the thing that makes something have more addictive potential
is how fast we can do it. Right, So nowadays
we can scroll super fast through TikTok, Instagram, YouTube shorts,
all these things. If I make an analogy, it's like
poke machines right. Very similarly, we can play Pokey's really fast,
(02:50):
and that's why pokeys are more addictive than something like
scratches or lotto tickets, because we have more of a
period of having to wait than playing Pokey's. Wow. And
there's actually limits I'm getting a little bit off topic here,
but it's actually limits as to how fast Pokeys can spin.
I think it's like two point four seconds per spin.
But the reason they have that in place is because
they know the faster you can do something, the more
addictive it can be. So the reason I say this
(03:12):
is because when we had to type out that text,
you know, it was slow, it was effortful, It took
longer it was a bit more hard work, which means
it's got less of a potential to be addictive.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, it's so interesting you talk it out like that,
because I fully forgot that that's how I used to
text back in the days, and that wasn't that long ago.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah I remember. I remember I could like type out
my name like super fast with my eyes closed without
having to look at like, and that was like a
win for the day.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yeah. Yeah, oh my gosh, I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
But it's interesting because it does just go to show
I like to kind of name it as we do
live in this microwave culture where we want, we thrive
of getting things quick and fast, and I feel like
that's exactly what's happening with.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Our phones as well.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Absolutely, So what.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Makes our phones or as you were saying, what's on it?
What makes it so addictive? Like why can we not
put it down?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
So there's a few key features. So I already spoke
to that speed element, right, the faster we can do something,
the more addictive potential it has. But there's something else
called intermittent reinforcement schedules, which is just basically fancy, a
fancy way of saying the brain likes things that are
(04:26):
rewarding and exciting. Right, So when we go and scroll
social media, we see a video and we find it funny,
and the brain likes that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
This is where dopamine comes into it. Dopamine pathways are activated.
But what the brain likes more than just something exciting
is random excitement. All right. So when I don't know
when the exciting thing is going to happen, it makes
my brain lock in even more and makes it more
(04:55):
exciting and addictive. So again I'm going to make a
link to poke machines. People know that a win is
possible when you play a poke machine because either they've
won before, or they've seen someone else when, or they
just know it's a possibility. So the fact that those
wins are random, we don't know when it's gonna happen,
but we know there's the potential for it makes it
(05:16):
more exciting. So this is intermittent, which means every so often,
not on a regular intermittent reinforcement reward schedules. The rewards
are on a random schedule. And this is how social
media platforms have been developed to exist because the companies
know that if every single video you saw was like that,
(05:38):
bang on, this is so great. I love this. It
would actually be less exciting to the brain than if
every third or fourth video you saw was that really
funny or exciting video.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Wow, that's actually I mean, it's amazing to see that perspective,
but also quite confronting because I'm literally thinking about social
media because I definitely am addicted to social media, and
I can I can feel like you talk about dopamine,
I literally can feel it go off in my brain
being like ooh, new follow.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Like you comment who's this person?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I don't know who this person is, and it's just
I notice myself doing it, but I actually can't get
out of it, and I know, like we'll talk about
that later, but it does just it's so conflicting, right
because I know social media is this false reality. You know,
it's a curated lifestyle, but I do subconsciously and consciously
(06:27):
I do kind of give into it, being like and
it sounds so superficial in a way, but it's like, oh,
if I get this amount of followers, then I'm going
to be successful, or if I get this many likes,
that means I'm going to feel loved.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And I think what you're saying speaks to what a
lot of people experience, which is this internal conflict, the
part of me that goes, I know this isn't real.
I know this maybe isn't as important. I know it's addictive.
I know I shouldn't look at my phone that much.
I shouldn't, you know, look at social media that much,
and yet we do. Yeah, And it's because dopamine and
(07:00):
these these chemical neural pathways are being activated on a
level that is beneath conscious awareness. We actually don't you know.
I always hate to say this, but we don't have
as much control as we like to think we do.
I'm really sort of opinions about this because I think
where we're at currently with social media is that a
(07:20):
lot of onus has been placed on the individual to
manage and monitor and stop their use. Right, if you're
addicted to social media, you should put all these barriers
in place. Yes, I'm not anti that, But where's the
bigger conversation about regulation and pressure on social media companies
to not create apps and platforms that are designed to
(07:41):
be addictive. It's no secret that we exist in this
attention economy. We know that these companies profit the more
time we spend on certain apps, and so they are
being designed for us to be on there for as
long as possible.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
It's so interesting you talk about the attention economy, like,
I think that's just such a like. I think that's
so symbolic of the times for living in because I
think about social media back in the days I was
in high school and I was probably on the edge
of my Space and Bebo Bebo the millennials out there
that I get this, but I remember it wasn't as
(08:18):
addictive too, because there wasn't that advertisement aspect to it
as well. So it's just interesting how much it's changed,
and drastically.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
It was literally following your friends and friends would post,
you know, what they had for dinner that night, and
on a scale of what's exciting, what some person is
having somewhere with friends that I don't know is not
actually that exciting to me. Also, if you think back
to the days of say Facebook, Facebook used to have
an end to the home screen, right, we would actually
(08:47):
scroll because we have the infinite scroll.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Now.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Facebook never used to have the infinite scroll a new thing.
It used to scroll. You'd get to the end of
your news feed and it would either say you're all
caught up, as in, you've seen everything there is to
see on this home feed, or it would say click
to see more. And so that button, the click to
see more, was an opportunity for your brain that was
(09:09):
stuck in this kind of scroll, for the prefrontal cortex
to come back online to go, hang on, do I
actually want to keep scrolling through and seeing what food
people are eating for dinner or where they've checked into,
or do I want to go and do something else.
We don't have that button anymore because it has been
identified as a circuit breaker. It actually takes people away
from the scroll, and of course companies don't want that.
(09:32):
They want you to be on there for as long
as possible. So these really kind of small, seemingly small
tweaks have such a huge impact on how much time
we spend on these apps.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So how big is the negative impact on our mental
and physical health?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
It's big. And I say this not to discredit the
positive impacts that social media phones tech can have, but
if we look at the data about excessive phone use
and social media use, because I think, really here, when
we're talking about phones, we're talking about specific apps, right,
I'm not spending hours a day on Google Maps or
(10:09):
on the weather app. Yeah, you know, like I'm not
hooked on that. I'm hooked on as you're traveling a
lot er neither web and in which case it's really
functional and useful. So I guess we differentiate here between
apps and technology that are designed to be tools that
are really useful versus apps and tech that are designed
(10:29):
to be entertainment. So when we look at people spending
excessive amounts of times on these apps, we see that
there are higher rates of depression, loneliness, anxiety. Physically, people
report disruptions to their sleep, especially if people are scrolling
before bed, which they often do in the bed and
before bed, So it really can have quite a negative
(10:51):
impact on our mental health in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's a little bit of a paradox in a way,
right when it comes to loneliness and using our phones,
because it's like we think using our phones will make
us less alone. Because you're right, it does have a function.
It helps us to connect with people, especially in the
different time zones or you know, it is a way
to communicate, but is it actually helping.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I think it's exactly what you said, right, if we're
using it in a way that is useful as the
tool it's designed to be. If we're talking to friends
who live overseas and sort of can connect, et cetera,
then wonderful, great, what a brilliant, wonderful use of tech
and social media and phones. But if we are on
(11:36):
our phones and we find ourselves replacing online connections with
in real life connections, that's sort a great thing. If
we find ourselves engaging in excessive social comparison because we
are now suddenly exposed to so many more people online,
that's not great. And again, social comparison is a natural thing.
(11:58):
It's not a downfalling of any individual person if they
fall into this sort of social comparison. When it comes
to what we consume online, it's really natural and normal,
but it's been amplified because we have access to so
much and so many people nowadays in a way that's
very curated online.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
So what about algorithms and what these apps like, what
are they actually feeding us?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, we would like to think that these apps are
feeding us content that are really sort of personalized to us. Right,
these apps have a lot of data on who we
are and what kinds of content we want to consume.
So yes, On the one hand, these apps will feed
us content that we find enjoyable. For example, last night,
(12:41):
I love looking at like cooking videos on Instagram, so
I was looking at cooking videos and the next thing
I know, my Explore page was just like full of
cooking videos, and I was like, Oh, there's a lot
of cooking videos. But like, you know, nice, Okay, I
like looking at this stuff. So it gives us what
we like and what we enjoy, but there's a couple
of other things that gives us that is not so
helpful or so good for us. Second is it feeds
(13:05):
the echo chamber. So if I have particular political beliefs
or world views that may or may not be sort
of healthy and helpful, it will feed me content that
pushes and pursues particular beliefs. Now, what we also know
about online content is that the more extreme it is,
(13:26):
the more viral it goes. Right, So I'm less likely
to receive videos that provide a very moderate view on
certain social issues. I'm more likely to be fed videos
that provide a somewhat extreme perspective because they're the ones
that get a lot of engagement. And this is where
we kind of move into the space of rage content.
(13:49):
We know that certain social media platforms will actually push
rage content. So this is content that makes us feel something.
It makes us angry, it makes us annoyed, it makes
us want to write the comment send it to a friend,
even if we don't agree with it. So we end
up in this space where we are engaging with and
somewhat perpetuating the spread of content that we might not
(14:10):
believe in, that we don't agree with, but because it's
activated some degree of emotion and rage within us, the
spread it has becomes even bigger.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And it's interesting too, just kind of touching on that,
because I think there's this desire and I'm coming from
a content creator space as well, but there's always this
desire for content creators or people that have online present
to go viral, right, So it's like, what is that
telling these people, being like, oh, I need to be
more angry, and you know, kind of shape myself to
(14:41):
feed these algorithms. But then it's like we're losing touch
of our own authenticity as well.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yes, yes, and you know I see videos where people
have very strong, one sided opinions on things and those
go viral as opposed to the people who might have
more kind of moderate balanced perspectives and things or want
to kind of explore two sides. Those are not as engaging,
they're not as quick, they're not as snappy, so they
(15:07):
get often less exposure than the videos that are lean
on one end of a spectrum. Yeah, I think this
is also where we so we're talking about like algorithms
and what they feed us. This is where we can
also talk about the negative use of social media to
kind of spread misinformation. So when we think about misinformation,
we're thinking about content that is actually not factual, and
(15:31):
that might not necessarily be with the intention to not
be factual, but just by nature of the kind of
spread or whoever's created it, it's not actually factual versus disinformation,
which is designed to be not factual but push a
particular agender. But with the degree of content that we
consume these days, so the quantity but also how fast
(15:53):
we consume it, it's really hard to fact check everything.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I know.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I've certainly come across videos in my feed where I'm
looking at it and I'm like, is that actually true?
I don't know if it is. It sounds like it
might not be, but also I'm in some sort of
scrolling pattern. Now I can't be bothered checking, and you know,
I'm just going to sort of take that with a
grain of salt. But we're getting so much information we
don't know what's true and what's not these days.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
So have you seen this in the clinic in terms
of phone addictions.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah. Absolutely, It's not something that we have a clear
definition around phone addiction, but I would say it is
absolutely something I'm seeing more and more in the clinic,
both adults and kids. We have a lot of parents
and families who are coming to the clinic being like my,
you know child, my teenager is hooked on phones, on screens,
(16:40):
on computers, whatever kind of screens it might be hooked
on them, and it's impacting all facets of their life.
They're not getting out and about, they're not doing the
sports that they once enjoyed, they're not connecting with their
friends in real life. They're sometimes not wanting to go
to school as a result of it. So we're absolutely
seeing more of this in the clinic. And I think
this kind of speaks to the upcoming social media ban
(17:01):
as well. For in December, I think it's the tenth
of December. Ye under sixteens not going to be allowed
to use social media in Australia. I mean, that's a
whole other topic. But I think one of the reasons
it's important to kind of consider youth and teens in
this space is because the brain in those teenage years
(17:22):
is very plastic. It's very changeable, it's very susceptible to
the information we feed it. And we know that the
brain at that age also has a very active limpic system,
which means it's highly emotional and pretty impulsive. But the
prefrontal cortex, the part that helps us regulate ourselves and
make good, responsible decisions, is not very well developed. So
(17:45):
we're giving teens and kids access to these tools where
they have full ability to access all corners of the internet.
And the Internet has some dark and scary places on it,
but you know that's hard for adults to manage sometimes,
let alone kids whose brains are not yet fully developed.
So I don't know that a social media ban is
the answer to all our problems, but I think it's
(18:06):
a step in the right direction to bring awareness to
the fact that we need to do something to protect
our kids.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
And it's interesting because I saw a bunch of our
facilitators from Flourish recently and I actually was asking them
about the conversations that you're having the teen girls around
the social media band. And it's interesting because a they've
got to find a way to get around it. And
that's again another whole episode. But the second one is
actually they know that social media is addictive, and they
(18:34):
know they're not victims to it. Teenage girls, they're not
victims to it. It's more around they need help with
navigating the phone addiction because they they're aware of it too,
as much as I'm aware that I'm really addicted to it.
They just need strategies and I think that's that's where
the conversations need to be had.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And I think unfortunately, I'm going to
come back to the algorithm for a moment. The algorithm
knows exactly who we are. The algorithm knows that I'm,
you know, thirty something year old psychologists who likes to
consume cooking videos.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
And your phone picking up on this, sorry.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
And it feeds me sort of mental health information from
other you know, creators who have some really sort of
sound advice to share. But I was recently working with
a young person and when I say young, I mean preteen,
and they showed me their feed, and their feed had
a lot of really cool, exciting, interesting vapes interesting, and
(19:35):
I then went on my app to try and find
similar videos. But because the algorithm knows who I am,
it gave me videos about people talking about how bad
vapes are for you, which is the sort of concept
that I would typically consume. And I was like, no, no,
I want to find those cool vape videos because I
want to understand, you know, better, what kids are seeing.
And it was very hard. I didn't actually find it.
(19:56):
I gave up in the end. I couldn't find those
cool marketing vape videos that kids are being fed, and
I come back to the ugrith. The algorithm knows that
that's a young child, so I find that really scary.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I think the reality is the content on our phones
is not going anywhere, and it's around how do we
learn to work with it without compromising our mental health
and our physical health. And it's interesting because we are
in changing times and it's in conversations like this right
that we can build our self awareness but also start
to create healthier habits. Absolutely, so, Anastasia, how do we
(20:36):
stop our phones from sucking up our lives?
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Hmmm?
Speaker 3 (20:39):
The million billion dollar questions help quite literally the question
everyone is asking at the minute. And I'm going to
give some suggestions and some strategies, but I want to
preface this by saying, hold compassion for yourself when trying
to make these changes, because, as we've said, certain apps
(21:00):
are designed to keep us on there for as long
as possible. They active pathways in the brain that are
below our conscious awareness, and so it is really hard
to make some of these changes for ourselves. So let's
just keep that in mind and keep that in perspective.
I'm going to suggest a twofold approach to trying to
make some changes for ourselves. One is around practically limiting
(21:22):
our screen use, and the other is around increasing more
values aligned behaviors and being able to do both of
these simultaneously. So if we first talk about limiting screen use,
this is where the real practical stuff comes into it,
So things like limiting access to certain apps. So this
(21:44):
might mean that at certain points in the week or
certain points in the day, you actually uninstall apps from
your phone. It might mean that you put your phone
on flight mode. This is something I do or do
not disturb if I don't want to be interrupted with notifications.
It might mean that you download something called the dumb Phone.
So there's an actual app. I met Michael the who
(22:05):
designed this app recently, so he created an app that
sort of turns your phone into a dumb phone, and
if you see it, it looks much less exciting than
how typical phones. It might be that you decide to
change your phone to grayscale. This is a really quick
and easy and effective one if anyone just wants a
quick tip for trying to make some changes fast, put
(22:28):
your phone on grayscale, scroll TikTok or Instagram and see
how much less exciting the phone looks when you're looking
at it in black and white and gray as opposed
to in color. Color is quite exciting for the brain,
so we're taking some of that excitement away. So looking
at these practical strategies, if you happen to be listening
and you're a parent and you want guidance around managing
(22:50):
kid and teen phone usage, the e Safety website have
some really really great resources around family tech agreements, and
this is where the whole family can come together and
agree on tech use in the home. You know, do
we maybe have spaces in the home where we agree
that we're not going to have phones, for example, the
dinner table or in bed. So having these shared family
(23:12):
agreements can be really useful.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I really love that. And that's so good that the
e Safety website has that. We'll have to put a
link into the show notes. But it's interesting you talk
about no phones in the bedroom, because yeah, okay, I'm
going to say, YO and I we don't do this anymore.
But when we were first married and we moved into
our new apartment, it was very exciting. We didn't have
phones in the bedroom. Like it was like these non
(23:35):
negotiable rules that we both like followed. We abide to
the rules, and it was so good because I was
in my room, I'll just be journaling, and it was
like a really nice, sacred space. But now I say,
that's what we used to do, because now I don't
do that. But when it worked, it actually was really effective.
And I think, doesn't it take like thirty days to
build a habit anyways or something like that. So I
(23:56):
guess this is kind of the layer of compassion, to
bring compassion to all of this.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Exactly, and recognizing that when we do put these block
in place, we are gonna have urges to go back to,
you know, the app or to the phone. I know
I've had times where I've uninstalled or deactivated sort of
accounts of social media and I will literally open my
phone and press exactly where the icon would be, automatically
(24:22):
without thinking. And it's not until it opens up and
it's like you've locked out or you've deactivated this account
temporarily that I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm doing that thing
where I'm not looking at social media, but it's an
automatic habit and reaction to open and press the icon.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
It's so true. It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Like, I know you mentioned about the app that your
friend Michael has, so I've been using another app called Opal,
So that's another social media time restriction one and it
worked really well. I have to admit I have been
ignoring the limit and I have been exceeding. And it's
an interesting one because I'm sure there's people tuning in
that have tried these strategies and it's still not working.
(24:59):
And I'm keen to get your lens on, Like, how
do we bring compassion to this because I so desperately
would like to not be addicted to my phone.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Yeah, it's it's remembering that this is something that is
designed to keep you on there. I mean, and it's
not just social media we're talking about. I mean, there
was a there was a very famous quote that came
out from streaming service, a popular streaming service a few
years back, where it said, we're not competing with other
streaming services, we're competing with sleep ah what. So I
(25:32):
think that really just clearly highlights the message of you know,
we're doing all this work trying to be like, let
me find another app to help me manage my use,
and let me put my phone in one of those
boxes where I can't you know, access it, and let
me put limits and let me download E safety. You know,
we're doing all these things because they're designs to keep
us on there for as long as possible. And so
(25:53):
I think the compassion comes in knowing that.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
So how about values aligned behaviors You were speaking to
that a little bit before.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yes, so while we try to reduce our SCREA in use,
that's not going to be enough because what will typically
happen if that's all we try to do. We'll do
that successfully for one week, two weeks however long, and
then and then at some point we'll just go back
to doing what we were doing before, Right, because it's
hard work. We're kind of like right knuckling it the
(26:20):
whole time. It's it's difficult. So what we have to
do at the same time is increase other behaviors. Right,
we're going to spend less time on a screen. It
means we're going to have more time for other stuff.
So how are we going to feel that time? We
can just fill it in random ways, but what I
recommend is we feel it in ways that are values aligned.
(26:40):
So we've talked about values before, but this is where
it comes back to being able to reflect on what
are those things that are most important to me, and
being able to substitute that time with actions and behaviors
that align with those values that I hold. If I
hold the value of creativity, what can I do during
that time that is creative? I hold the value of adventure?
(27:03):
What can I do that's adventures Instead of, you know,
spending a Sunday afternoon scrolling on my phone, I go
out and do some new activity, you know, doing things
that align with our values, creates a stronger buffer for
us to then sort of resist the urge to want
to go back on our screens in the way that
we previously did.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I can imagine as well readjusting there can be a
bit of resistance to that too, because I definitely can
feel that tendency to want to just jump back on
my phone. But then it's like, Okay, Shanny, what our
activities you can do?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
I've got some homework to do.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Barb, Barb, Barb. I'm poving a serious Cristians BRB having
a crisis.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
We've reached that time in our episode where we answer
a question or dilemma from one of you. But are
you happy listeners, Anastasia, This one comes from mel.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
Lately, I've noticed this weird compulsion. I'll be having a
normal day, maybe even a good one, and suddenly I'm
deep in some article about climate collapse or doom, scrolling
through headlines about everything going wrong in the world, and
I know it's not good for me. I can feel
my chest tighten, my mood dip, my brain just goes
into panic mode. But I keep doing it over and
over again, like some part of me thinks staying constantly informed,
(28:20):
even overwhelmed, is more responsible than stepping back. But is
it At what point does this awareness just turn into anxiety?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
This is such a great question. I'm really glad this
one came through because we've talked about the addictive nature
of apps, we've talked about social comparison, but we haven't
talked too much in this episode about sort of doom
scrolling and the consumption of a lot of news content. Yeah,
and so mel, I want to start off by validating
(28:52):
your experience by actually sharing some statistics with you. So
this came out from the twenty twenty five Digital News Report,
which tells us that an increasing amount of people are
actually going to social media as their main form of
news consumption. So true, So people are actually shifting away
from traditional news outlets to consume news and apparently it's
(29:16):
one in four that say social media is their main
source of where they get their news from. In addition
to this, there's also reports that say since about twenty sixteen,
people are reporting that they are wanting to consume news less.
And I think this speaks to the kind of rise
of social media and the way in which we have
(29:37):
actually been fed news and I use the word fed
very deliberately because we're not always choosing to consume some
of this news online and through our social media. It
is just given to us, and we feel like we
really don't have a choice in what we see sometimes.
So I say this to validate that people are getting
a lot of their news online, but people are not
(29:57):
always necessarily choosing that. We end up scrolling and seeing
all these awful stories about wars, about political things that
are happening, about climate change, financial crises, all these things,
and it can be very overwhelming. Historically, we haven't had
so much access to news. This is a new thing.
So if you find yourself stuck doom scrolling news and
(30:20):
some of that negative content that we can see with news,
I would encourage you to ask yourself the question, am
I doom scrolling for reassurance, for distraction or for control?
Because we might find that there is a part of
reading through and looking through and watching videos that are
(30:40):
all about climate change that provides us something, some sort
of reassurance that someone's doing something, some sort of sense
of control that I feel like, well, now that I
have the information, I can do something, or it might
feel like a distraction from other things in our life,
but really kind of reflect on the question of why
am I doing this? Why am I going deep down
this rabbit hole? And if you can answer that question
(31:01):
for yourself, it might help you to be able to
kind of put the pause button in place and step
away from the phone for a period of time.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Anastasia, can you reiterate on the main takeaways from today's episode,
I'll do my best.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
First of all, screen time and social media, especially excessive
screen time can be detrimental for our mental health. Secondly,
these apps are designed to be addictive, so when you
are trying to make changes, hold compassion for yourself. And third,
if you do find yourself stuck scrolling excessively, I encourage
(31:39):
you to take a two prong approach where you try
and limit screen time while also increasing values aligned behaviors.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
If you have a burning question for us, there's a
few ways to get in touch with us, links through
in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the ideas we present here should
always take into account your personal medical history.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Next week, we're going to have another mythbustering episode. We
know you guys love It, and this one is on OCD.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie Blackman.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is Gemma Donaho.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Sound design and editing by Tina Mattalov.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at But
Are You Happy Pod?
Speaker 4 (32:24):
I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And I'm Doctor Anastasia Hernas. The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(32:47):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Thanks for listening, See you next week. You're listening to
I'm Ama Mia podcast.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on.
You're listening to I'm On with mea podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Phone addiction is getting so bad that watching a movie
feels productive. Like I'll scroll on my phone for three hours.
I'll go through TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, whatever it is, and
I'll feel super bad about it. I'll feel fried and
just burnt out. And then I'll decide, you know what,
I want to sit down, relax and watch a three
hour movie. And for some reason, it feels way more
productive than being on your phone. It's like your brain
(00:31):
process is that small screen is bad, big screen good.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Well, mama Mia, I'm your host, Ashani Dante. Welcome to
But Are You Happy? The show for anyone whose idea
of relaxation is watching true crime with a weighted blanket.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
And I'm doctor Anastasia Hernas, a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Are you someone who's never been
able to put their phone down?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Yep, I'm definitely guilty of that one.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
We can all be. But there comes a point where
being on our phone too much can really negatively impact
our mental health and how we spend our time. So
we're gonna unpack that today.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
Let's get into it. Okay, I'm not gonna lie.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
I did have a little giggle to myself as we
were preparing for this episode because the phone is fucking
up our lives and yeah, it's laughable because it's so relatable.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Why is it fucking up our lives at aesthesia?
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, well, let me jump in right off the start
and say, it's not the phone, it's what's on the
phone and what we're doing on our phones. Right, because
if we think back to the days of the quote
unquote dumb phone as they call it now, right, the
Nokia flip phone or whatever it was. I remember I
had a phone back in the day. And what I do.
(01:48):
I played Snake. Yeah, it got really good at Snake.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
What a throwback.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
That is so true. Yeah, Snake, that like one game
black and white, no color. Yes, a lot of buttons
you had to press, and then what you text a
friend and you had to type out every letter.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Oh my gosh, it is so true that you say that,
I fully forgot that we did that.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah. And while we might have used phones a lot
back then, we weren't like addicted to them in the
same way that we are now. I certainly didn't have
kind of these urges to be like, oh my god,
I can't wait to like pick up my phone and
play the next game of snake. Right, it just wasn't
that exciting or entire sing or you know, sending a text.
(02:30):
It took longer. So you know, part of the part
of the thing that makes something have more addictive potential
is how fast we can do it. Right, So nowadays
we can scroll super fast through TikTok, Instagram, YouTube shorts,
all these things. If I make an analogy, it's like
poke machines right. Very similarly, we can play Pokey's really fast,
(02:50):
and that's why pokeys are more addictive than something like
scratches or lotto tickets, because we have more of a
period of having to wait than playing Pokey's. Wow. And
there's actually limits I'm getting a little bit off topic here,
but it's actually limits as to how fast Pokeys can spin.
I think it's like two point four seconds per spin.
But the reason they have that in place is because
they know the faster you can do something, the more
addictive it can be. So the reason I say this
(03:12):
is because when we had to type out that text,
you know, it was slow, it was effortful, It took
longer it was a bit more hard work, which means
it's got less of a potential to be addictive.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, it's so interesting you talk it out like that,
because I fully forgot that that's how I used to
text back in the days, and that wasn't that long ago.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Yeah I remember. I remember I could like type out
my name like super fast with my eyes closed without
having to look at like, and that was like a
win for the day.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Yeah. Yeah, oh my gosh, I love that.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
But it's interesting because it does just go to show
I like to kind of name it as we do
live in this microwave culture where we want, we thrive
of getting things quick and fast, and I feel like
that's exactly what's happening with.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Our phones as well.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Absolutely, So what.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Makes our phones or as you were saying, what's on it?
What makes it so addictive? Like why can we not
put it down?
Speaker 3 (04:04):
So there's a few key features. So I already spoke
to that speed element, right, the faster we can do something,
the more addictive potential it has. But there's something else
called intermittent reinforcement schedules, which is just basically fancy, a
fancy way of saying the brain likes things that are
(04:26):
rewarding and exciting. Right, So when we go and scroll
social media, we see a video and we find it funny,
and the brain likes that.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (04:34):
This is where dopamine comes into it. Dopamine pathways are activated.
But what the brain likes more than just something exciting
is random excitement. All right. So when I don't know
when the exciting thing is going to happen, it makes
my brain lock in even more and makes it more
(04:55):
exciting and addictive. So again I'm going to make a
link to poke machines. People know that a win is
possible when you play a poke machine because either they've
won before, or they've seen someone else when, or they
just know it's a possibility. So the fact that those
wins are random, we don't know when it's gonna happen,
but we know there's the potential for it makes it
(05:16):
more exciting. So this is intermittent, which means every so often,
not on a regular intermittent reinforcement reward schedules. The rewards
are on a random schedule. And this is how social
media platforms have been developed to exist because the companies
know that if every single video you saw was like that,
(05:38):
bang on, this is so great. I love this. It
would actually be less exciting to the brain than if
every third or fourth video you saw was that really
funny or exciting video.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Wow, that's actually I mean, it's amazing to see that perspective,
but also quite confronting because I'm literally thinking about social
media because I definitely am addicted to social media, and
I can I can feel like you talk about dopamine,
I literally can feel it go off in my brain
being like ooh, new follow.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
Like you comment who's this person?
Speaker 1 (06:06):
I don't know who this person is, and it's just
I notice myself doing it, but I actually can't get
out of it, and I know, like we'll talk about
that later, but it does just it's so conflicting, right
because I know social media is this false reality. You know,
it's a curated lifestyle, but I do subconsciously and consciously
(06:27):
I do kind of give into it, being like and
it sounds so superficial in a way, but it's like, oh,
if I get this amount of followers, then I'm going
to be successful, or if I get this many likes,
that means I'm going to feel loved.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And I think what you're saying speaks to what a
lot of people experience, which is this internal conflict, the
part of me that goes, I know this isn't real.
I know this maybe isn't as important. I know it's addictive.
I know I shouldn't look at my phone that much.
I shouldn't, you know, look at social media that much,
and yet we do. Yeah, And it's because dopamine and
(07:00):
these these chemical neural pathways are being activated on a
level that is beneath conscious awareness. We actually don't you know.
I always hate to say this, but we don't have
as much control as we like to think we do.
I'm really sort of opinions about this because I think
where we're at currently with social media is that a
(07:20):
lot of onus has been placed on the individual to
manage and monitor and stop their use. Right, if you're
addicted to social media, you should put all these barriers
in place. Yes, I'm not anti that, But where's the
bigger conversation about regulation and pressure on social media companies
to not create apps and platforms that are designed to
(07:41):
be addictive. It's no secret that we exist in this
attention economy. We know that these companies profit the more
time we spend on certain apps, and so they are
being designed for us to be on there for as
long as possible.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
It's so interesting you talk about the attention economy, like,
I think that's just such a like. I think that's
so symbolic of the times for living in because I
think about social media back in the days I was
in high school and I was probably on the edge
of my Space and Bebo Bebo the millennials out there
that I get this, but I remember it wasn't as
(08:18):
addictive too, because there wasn't that advertisement aspect to it
as well. So it's just interesting how much it's changed,
and drastically.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
It was literally following your friends and friends would post,
you know, what they had for dinner that night, and
on a scale of what's exciting, what some person is
having somewhere with friends that I don't know is not
actually that exciting to me. Also, if you think back
to the days of say Facebook, Facebook used to have
an end to the home screen, right, we would actually
(08:47):
scroll because we have the infinite scroll.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
Now.
Speaker 3 (08:49):
Facebook never used to have the infinite scroll a new thing.
It used to scroll. You'd get to the end of
your news feed and it would either say you're all
caught up, as in, you've seen everything there is to
see on this home feed, or it would say click
to see more. And so that button, the click to
see more, was an opportunity for your brain that was
(09:09):
stuck in this kind of scroll, for the prefrontal cortex
to come back online to go, hang on, do I
actually want to keep scrolling through and seeing what food
people are eating for dinner or where they've checked into,
or do I want to go and do something else.
We don't have that button anymore because it has been
identified as a circuit breaker. It actually takes people away
from the scroll, and of course companies don't want that.
(09:32):
They want you to be on there for as long
as possible. So these really kind of small, seemingly small
tweaks have such a huge impact on how much time
we spend on these apps.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
So how big is the negative impact on our mental
and physical health?
Speaker 3 (09:46):
It's big. And I say this not to discredit the
positive impacts that social media phones tech can have, but
if we look at the data about excessive phone use
and social media use, because I think, really here, when
we're talking about phones, we're talking about specific apps, right,
I'm not spending hours a day on Google Maps or
(10:09):
on the weather app. Yeah, you know, like I'm not
hooked on that. I'm hooked on as you're traveling a
lot er neither web and in which case it's really
functional and useful. So I guess we differentiate here between
apps and technology that are designed to be tools that
are really useful versus apps and tech that are designed
(10:29):
to be entertainment. So when we look at people spending
excessive amounts of times on these apps, we see that
there are higher rates of depression, loneliness, anxiety. Physically, people
report disruptions to their sleep, especially if people are scrolling
before bed, which they often do in the bed and
before bed, So it really can have quite a negative
(10:51):
impact on our mental health in so many ways.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
It's a little bit of a paradox in a way,
right when it comes to loneliness and using our phones,
because it's like we think using our phones will make
us less alone. Because you're right, it does have a function.
It helps us to connect with people, especially in the
different time zones or you know, it is a way
to communicate, but is it actually helping.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
I think it's exactly what you said, right, if we're
using it in a way that is useful as the
tool it's designed to be. If we're talking to friends
who live overseas and sort of can connect, et cetera,
then wonderful, great, what a brilliant, wonderful use of tech
and social media and phones. But if we are on
(11:36):
our phones and we find ourselves replacing online connections with
in real life connections, that's sort a great thing. If
we find ourselves engaging in excessive social comparison because we
are now suddenly exposed to so many more people online,
that's not great. And again, social comparison is a natural thing.
(11:58):
It's not a downfalling of any individual person if they
fall into this sort of social comparison. When it comes
to what we consume online, it's really natural and normal,
but it's been amplified because we have access to so
much and so many people nowadays in a way that's
very curated online.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
So what about algorithms and what these apps like, what
are they actually feeding us?
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Well, we would like to think that these apps are
feeding us content that are really sort of personalized to us. Right,
these apps have a lot of data on who we
are and what kinds of content we want to consume.
So yes, On the one hand, these apps will feed
us content that we find enjoyable. For example, last night,
(12:41):
I love looking at like cooking videos on Instagram, so
I was looking at cooking videos and the next thing
I know, my Explore page was just like full of
cooking videos, and I was like, Oh, there's a lot
of cooking videos. But like, you know, nice, Okay, I
like looking at this stuff. So it gives us what
we like and what we enjoy, but there's a couple
of other things that gives us that is not so
helpful or so good for us. Second is it feeds
(13:05):
the echo chamber. So if I have particular political beliefs
or world views that may or may not be sort
of healthy and helpful, it will feed me content that
pushes and pursues particular beliefs. Now, what we also know
about online content is that the more extreme it is,
(13:26):
the more viral it goes. Right, So I'm less likely
to receive videos that provide a very moderate view on
certain social issues. I'm more likely to be fed videos
that provide a somewhat extreme perspective because they're the ones
that get a lot of engagement. And this is where
we kind of move into the space of rage content.
(13:49):
We know that certain social media platforms will actually push
rage content. So this is content that makes us feel something.
It makes us angry, it makes us annoyed, it makes
us want to write the comment send it to a friend,
even if we don't agree with it. So we end
up in this space where we are engaging with and
somewhat perpetuating the spread of content that we might not
(14:10):
believe in, that we don't agree with, but because it's
activated some degree of emotion and rage within us, the
spread it has becomes even bigger.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
And it's interesting too, just kind of touching on that,
because I think there's this desire and I'm coming from
a content creator space as well, but there's always this
desire for content creators or people that have online present
to go viral, right, So it's like, what is that
telling these people, being like, oh, I need to be
more angry, and you know, kind of shape myself to
(14:41):
feed these algorithms. But then it's like we're losing touch
of our own authenticity as well.
Speaker 3 (14:46):
Yes, yes, and you know I see videos where people
have very strong, one sided opinions on things and those
go viral as opposed to the people who might have
more kind of moderate balanced perspectives and things or want
to kind of explore two sides. Those are not as engaging,
they're not as quick, they're not as snappy, so they
(15:07):
get often less exposure than the videos that are lean
on one end of a spectrum. Yeah, I think this
is also where we so we're talking about like algorithms
and what they feed us. This is where we can
also talk about the negative use of social media to
kind of spread misinformation. So when we think about misinformation,
we're thinking about content that is actually not factual, and
(15:31):
that might not necessarily be with the intention to not
be factual, but just by nature of the kind of
spread or whoever's created it, it's not actually factual versus disinformation,
which is designed to be not factual but push a
particular agender. But with the degree of content that we
consume these days, so the quantity but also how fast
(15:53):
we consume it, it's really hard to fact check everything.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I know.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
I've certainly come across videos in my feed where I'm
looking at it and I'm like, is that actually true?
I don't know if it is. It sounds like it
might not be, but also I'm in some sort of
scrolling pattern. Now I can't be bothered checking, and you know,
I'm just going to sort of take that with a
grain of salt. But we're getting so much information we
don't know what's true and what's not these days.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
So have you seen this in the clinic in terms
of phone addictions.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Yeah. Absolutely, It's not something that we have a clear
definition around phone addiction, but I would say it is
absolutely something I'm seeing more and more in the clinic,
both adults and kids. We have a lot of parents
and families who are coming to the clinic being like my,
you know child, my teenager is hooked on phones, on screens,
(16:40):
on computers, whatever kind of screens it might be hooked
on them, and it's impacting all facets of their life.
They're not getting out and about, they're not doing the
sports that they once enjoyed, they're not connecting with their
friends in real life. They're sometimes not wanting to go
to school as a result of it. So we're absolutely
seeing more of this in the clinic. And I think
this kind of speaks to the upcoming social media ban
(17:01):
as well. For in December, I think it's the tenth
of December. Ye under sixteens not going to be allowed
to use social media in Australia. I mean, that's a
whole other topic. But I think one of the reasons
it's important to kind of consider youth and teens in
this space is because the brain in those teenage years
(17:22):
is very plastic. It's very changeable, it's very susceptible to
the information we feed it. And we know that the
brain at that age also has a very active limpic system,
which means it's highly emotional and pretty impulsive. But the
prefrontal cortex, the part that helps us regulate ourselves and
make good, responsible decisions, is not very well developed. So
(17:45):
we're giving teens and kids access to these tools where
they have full ability to access all corners of the internet.
And the Internet has some dark and scary places on it,
but you know that's hard for adults to manage sometimes,
let alone kids whose brains are not yet fully developed.
So I don't know that a social media ban is
the answer to all our problems, but I think it's
(18:06):
a step in the right direction to bring awareness to
the fact that we need to do something to protect
our kids.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
It's so true.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
And it's interesting because I saw a bunch of our
facilitators from Flourish recently and I actually was asking them
about the conversations that you're having the teen girls around
the social media band. And it's interesting because a they've
got to find a way to get around it. And
that's again another whole episode. But the second one is
actually they know that social media is addictive, and they
(18:34):
know they're not victims to it. Teenage girls, they're not
victims to it. It's more around they need help with
navigating the phone addiction because they they're aware of it too,
as much as I'm aware that I'm really addicted to it.
They just need strategies and I think that's that's where
the conversations need to be had.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And I think unfortunately, I'm going to
come back to the algorithm for a moment. The algorithm
knows exactly who we are. The algorithm knows that I'm,
you know, thirty something year old psychologists who likes to
consume cooking videos.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
And your phone picking up on this, sorry.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
And it feeds me sort of mental health information from
other you know, creators who have some really sort of
sound advice to share. But I was recently working with
a young person and when I say young, I mean preteen,
and they showed me their feed, and their feed had
a lot of really cool, exciting, interesting vapes interesting, and
(19:35):
I then went on my app to try and find
similar videos. But because the algorithm knows who I am,
it gave me videos about people talking about how bad
vapes are for you, which is the sort of concept
that I would typically consume. And I was like, no, no,
I want to find those cool vape videos because I
want to understand, you know, better, what kids are seeing.
And it was very hard. I didn't actually find it.
(19:56):
I gave up in the end. I couldn't find those
cool marketing vape videos that kids are being fed, and
I come back to the ugrith. The algorithm knows that
that's a young child, so I find that really scary.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
I think the reality is the content on our phones
is not going anywhere, and it's around how do we
learn to work with it without compromising our mental health
and our physical health. And it's interesting because we are
in changing times and it's in conversations like this right
that we can build our self awareness but also start
to create healthier habits. Absolutely, so, Anastasia, how do we
(20:36):
stop our phones from sucking up our lives?
Speaker 4 (20:38):
Hmmm?
Speaker 3 (20:39):
The million billion dollar questions help quite literally the question
everyone is asking at the minute. And I'm going to
give some suggestions and some strategies, but I want to
preface this by saying, hold compassion for yourself when trying
to make these changes, because, as we've said, certain apps
(21:00):
are designed to keep us on there for as long
as possible. They active pathways in the brain that are
below our conscious awareness, and so it is really hard
to make some of these changes for ourselves. So let's
just keep that in mind and keep that in perspective.
I'm going to suggest a twofold approach to trying to
make some changes for ourselves. One is around practically limiting
(21:22):
our screen use, and the other is around increasing more
values aligned behaviors and being able to do both of
these simultaneously. So if we first talk about limiting screen use,
this is where the real practical stuff comes into it,
So things like limiting access to certain apps. So this
(21:44):
might mean that at certain points in the week or
certain points in the day, you actually uninstall apps from
your phone. It might mean that you put your phone
on flight mode. This is something I do or do
not disturb if I don't want to be interrupted with notifications.
It might mean that you download something called the dumb Phone.
So there's an actual app. I met Michael the who
(22:05):
designed this app recently, so he created an app that
sort of turns your phone into a dumb phone, and
if you see it, it looks much less exciting than
how typical phones. It might be that you decide to
change your phone to grayscale. This is a really quick
and easy and effective one if anyone just wants a
quick tip for trying to make some changes fast, put
(22:28):
your phone on grayscale, scroll TikTok or Instagram and see
how much less exciting the phone looks when you're looking
at it in black and white and gray as opposed
to in color. Color is quite exciting for the brain,
so we're taking some of that excitement away. So looking
at these practical strategies, if you happen to be listening
and you're a parent and you want guidance around managing
(22:50):
kid and teen phone usage, the e Safety website have
some really really great resources around family tech agreements, and
this is where the whole family can come together and
agree on tech use in the home. You know, do
we maybe have spaces in the home where we agree
that we're not going to have phones, for example, the
dinner table or in bed. So having these shared family
(23:12):
agreements can be really useful.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I really love that. And that's so good that the
e Safety website has that. We'll have to put a
link into the show notes. But it's interesting you talk
about no phones in the bedroom, because yeah, okay, I'm
going to say, YO and I we don't do this anymore.
But when we were first married and we moved into
our new apartment, it was very exciting. We didn't have
phones in the bedroom. Like it was like these non
(23:35):
negotiable rules that we both like followed. We abide to
the rules, and it was so good because I was
in my room, I'll just be journaling, and it was
like a really nice, sacred space. But now I say,
that's what we used to do, because now I don't
do that. But when it worked, it actually was really effective.
And I think, doesn't it take like thirty days to
build a habit anyways or something like that. So I
(23:56):
guess this is kind of the layer of compassion, to
bring compassion to all of this.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Exactly, and recognizing that when we do put these block
in place, we are gonna have urges to go back to,
you know, the app or to the phone. I know
I've had times where I've uninstalled or deactivated sort of
accounts of social media and I will literally open my
phone and press exactly where the icon would be, automatically
(24:22):
without thinking. And it's not until it opens up and
it's like you've locked out or you've deactivated this account
temporarily that I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm doing that thing
where I'm not looking at social media, but it's an
automatic habit and reaction to open and press the icon.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
It's so true. It's interesting.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Like, I know you mentioned about the app that your
friend Michael has, so I've been using another app called Opal,
So that's another social media time restriction one and it
worked really well. I have to admit I have been
ignoring the limit and I have been exceeding. And it's
an interesting one because I'm sure there's people tuning in
that have tried these strategies and it's still not working.
(24:59):
And I'm keen to get your lens on, Like, how
do we bring compassion to this because I so desperately
would like to not be addicted to my phone.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Yeah, it's it's remembering that this is something that is
designed to keep you on there. I mean, and it's
not just social media we're talking about. I mean, there
was a there was a very famous quote that came
out from streaming service, a popular streaming service a few
years back, where it said, we're not competing with other
streaming services, we're competing with sleep ah what. So I
(25:32):
think that really just clearly highlights the message of you know,
we're doing all this work trying to be like, let
me find another app to help me manage my use,
and let me put my phone in one of those
boxes where I can't you know, access it, and let
me put limits and let me download E safety. You know,
we're doing all these things because they're designs to keep
us on there for as long as possible. And so
(25:53):
I think the compassion comes in knowing that.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
So how about values aligned behaviors You were speaking to
that a little bit before.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yes, so while we try to reduce our SCREA in use,
that's not going to be enough because what will typically
happen if that's all we try to do. We'll do
that successfully for one week, two weeks however long, and
then and then at some point we'll just go back
to doing what we were doing before, Right, because it's
hard work. We're kind of like right knuckling it the
(26:20):
whole time. It's it's difficult. So what we have to
do at the same time is increase other behaviors. Right,
we're going to spend less time on a screen. It
means we're going to have more time for other stuff.
So how are we going to feel that time? We
can just fill it in random ways, but what I
recommend is we feel it in ways that are values aligned.
(26:40):
So we've talked about values before, but this is where
it comes back to being able to reflect on what
are those things that are most important to me, and
being able to substitute that time with actions and behaviors
that align with those values that I hold. If I
hold the value of creativity, what can I do during
that time that is creative? I hold the value of adventure?
(27:03):
What can I do that's adventures Instead of, you know,
spending a Sunday afternoon scrolling on my phone, I go
out and do some new activity, you know, doing things
that align with our values, creates a stronger buffer for
us to then sort of resist the urge to want
to go back on our screens in the way that
we previously did.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I can imagine as well readjusting there can be a
bit of resistance to that too, because I definitely can
feel that tendency to want to just jump back on
my phone. But then it's like, Okay, Shanny, what our
activities you can do?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
I've got some homework to do.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
Barb, Barb, Barb. I'm poving a serious Cristians BRB having
a crisis.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
We've reached that time in our episode where we answer
a question or dilemma from one of you. But are
you happy listeners, Anastasia, This one comes from mel.
Speaker 5 (27:56):
Lately, I've noticed this weird compulsion. I'll be having a
normal day, maybe even a good one, and suddenly I'm
deep in some article about climate collapse or doom, scrolling
through headlines about everything going wrong in the world, and
I know it's not good for me. I can feel
my chest tighten, my mood dip, my brain just goes
into panic mode. But I keep doing it over and
over again, like some part of me thinks staying constantly informed,
(28:20):
even overwhelmed, is more responsible than stepping back. But is
it At what point does this awareness just turn into anxiety?
Speaker 3 (28:30):
This is such a great question. I'm really glad this
one came through because we've talked about the addictive nature
of apps, we've talked about social comparison, but we haven't
talked too much in this episode about sort of doom
scrolling and the consumption of a lot of news content. Yeah,
and so mel, I want to start off by validating
(28:52):
your experience by actually sharing some statistics with you. So
this came out from the twenty twenty five Digital News Report,
which tells us that an increasing amount of people are
actually going to social media as their main form of
news consumption. So true, So people are actually shifting away
from traditional news outlets to consume news and apparently it's
(29:16):
one in four that say social media is their main
source of where they get their news from. In addition
to this, there's also reports that say since about twenty sixteen,
people are reporting that they are wanting to consume news less.
And I think this speaks to the kind of rise
of social media and the way in which we have
(29:37):
actually been fed news and I use the word fed
very deliberately because we're not always choosing to consume some
of this news online and through our social media. It
is just given to us, and we feel like we
really don't have a choice in what we see sometimes.
So I say this to validate that people are getting
a lot of their news online, but people are not
(29:57):
always necessarily choosing that. We end up scrolling and seeing
all these awful stories about wars, about political things that
are happening, about climate change, financial crises, all these things,
and it can be very overwhelming. Historically, we haven't had
so much access to news. This is a new thing.
So if you find yourself stuck doom scrolling news and
(30:20):
some of that negative content that we can see with news,
I would encourage you to ask yourself the question, am
I doom scrolling for reassurance, for distraction or for control?
Because we might find that there is a part of
reading through and looking through and watching videos that are
(30:40):
all about climate change that provides us something, some sort
of reassurance that someone's doing something, some sort of sense
of control that I feel like, well, now that I
have the information, I can do something, or it might
feel like a distraction from other things in our life,
but really kind of reflect on the question of why
am I doing this? Why am I going deep down
this rabbit hole? And if you can answer that question
(31:01):
for yourself, it might help you to be able to
kind of put the pause button in place and step
away from the phone for a period of time.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
Anastasia, can you reiterate on the main takeaways from today's episode,
I'll do my best.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
First of all, screen time and social media, especially excessive
screen time can be detrimental for our mental health. Secondly,
these apps are designed to be addictive, so when you
are trying to make changes, hold compassion for yourself. And third,
if you do find yourself stuck scrolling excessively, I encourage
(31:39):
you to take a two prong approach where you try
and limit screen time while also increasing values aligned behaviors.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
If you have a burning question for us, there's a
few ways to get in touch with us, links through
in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the ideas we present here should
always take into account your personal medical history.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Next week, we're going to have another mythbustering episode. We
know you guys love It, and this one is on OCD.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
The senior producer of But Are You Happy is Charlie Blackman.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Executive producer is Naima Brown, and social producer is Gemma Donaho.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Sound design and editing by Tina Mattalov.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
You can find us on Instagram and TikTok at But
Are You Happy Pod?
Speaker 4 (32:24):
I'm a Shani Dante.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And I'm Doctor Anastasia Hernas. The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes
around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue or Lifeline if you're
(32:47):
wanting more immediate support.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Thanks for listening, See you next week. You're listening to
I'm Ama Mia podcast.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land and waters that this
podcast is recorded on.
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