Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and
waters that this podcast is recorded on.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
I think skinny talk sucks, and I think it's really
really disheartening and really discouraging to see all of these
awful rhetorics that people have spent so long dispelling suddenly
coming back and now being the norm. Skinny does now
automatically equal healthy, and there are a thousand things that
definitely taste better than skinny feels.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
For Mamma Mia. I'm your host, Ashanye Dante. Welcome to
But are you happy? Because overthinking isn't a personality trait,
but it feels like one.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
And I'm doctor Atastagia Hernis a clinical psychologist passionate about
happiness and mental health. Have you noticed it too, with
the rise of weight loss injections and the return of
skinny culture. It feels like we're moving backwards in the
body positivity movement.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
It really does, and it feels like we pit rewind
on so much of the pro aggress we've made collectively
as a society.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
That's exactly what we're diving into today. Will unpack what
these weight loss injections actually are how we can start
to reframe the idea of the ideal body and the
signs that this shift might be taking a toll on
your mental and physical help.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
This is such an important discussion to have. Let's get
into it. Okay, Anastasia, what actually is ozeenpic? I know
of so many of us here. It thrown around in
pop culture.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So a zeenpic and these weight loss injections that we've
been hearing about, they belong to a class of drugs
called GLP one, so glucogen lack peptite one receptor agonists
A big long title, but essentially azembic and these injections
were originally developed and are designed to help adults who
had type two diabetes actually manage their blood sugar levels.
(02:08):
So a zembic works by making the action of a
natural hormone that we have called GLP one, and it's
released in the body after we eat, so it prompts
the pancreas to produce and release more insulin when blood
sugar levels are really high, which helps lower blood glucose levels.
So a zembig actually delays how quickly food leaves the stomach,
(02:33):
and it makes you feel fuller for longer, reducing your appetite.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Kind of coming back to the audio at the beginning
of this podcast, this idea of skinny talk. There's been
this re emergence of skinny culture and weight loss injections
feel like another chapter in this ongoing narrative of the
ideal body. But what even is the ideal body? And
who who decides?
Speaker 2 (02:57):
You tell me a shiney, what's the ideal body? I
don't know, Like the ideal body has changed through the ages,
right through times. It was what like in the Victorian era,
it was that very like plump, full figured kind of body,
the hourglass figure that was very voluptuous, that was very
appealing to people. And then we moved through time. We
(03:18):
went to the nineteen twenties, that kind of Flappers era
where it was, you know, we wanted to look androgynous
and have that boyish kind of lean figure. And then
we moved through that supermodel era that was very athletic
and tones, and then we got to you know, the
kind of Kardashian era where you have very small waists
and the big buttocks and you know, those big curves.
(03:40):
So the ideal body is constantly changing. I don't know
what it is or who decides it, but society and
culture kind of goes through these waves, which is why
it's really hard for us to look to any sort
of ideal body because by the time we even potentially
achieve it, it's changed to the next thing.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
That's so true, and I feel like, especially after working
with a lot of teenage girls in workshops, there's one
thing we always do where we have a discussion around
what even like, what does even mean to be a
woman in today's world, And most of the time the
first answer that comes out of a girl's mouth is
to do with body appearance. And I know it used
(04:19):
to be called slim thick, but I actually now it's
you know, the skinny top culture. Like it does keep changing,
and it's disheartening, right.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
And it's sad that that's one of the first things
that young girls and young women think of when they
think about being a woman in the world, that it
somehow has something to do with the way they look
and the way their body is.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
I know, for me, coming from a Tri Luncan background,
there's a lot of my younger cousins that live in
Tri Lunka and they're quite skinny and their ideal body
is they want to get fat, so they want to
get fatter, Whereas you know, we look at the Australian culture,
people don't want to be fat. So it is this
kind of constant, not only this societal piece, but it
is this cultural piece as well. Absolutely, in my experience,
(05:01):
many people don't even realize they're struggling with an eating disorder.
So how do you actually know if you have an
eating disorder? What are some of the signs that we
should be looking at for?
Speaker 2 (05:10):
So this is a big piece for us to cover.
It's a really important one and I want to just
put out there that it's one that we'll talk about sensitively,
but please for any listeners take it with a grain
of salt. Right, The eating disorders can present in so
many different ways for different people, so there isn't a
one size fits all when it comes to this. But
the stats tell us that it's over a million Aussies
(05:32):
that are currently experiencing eating disorders and less than one
third are actually getting treatment or support. Right, so there's
very high stats of how many women and men. Right
doesn't discriminates women and men that have eating disorders, but
very few are actually getting the care and support they need.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So you're going to talk us through the most common
eating disorders, starting with anorexia. What exactly are the symptoms
of anorexia.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
We refer to it as anorexia, the full name is
anorexia nevosa, and this is an eating disorder that's very
much characterized by restriction. So there's a significant restriction of
energy intake, which is essentially how much food and energy
we're putting into our body, and it leads to a
person being significantly underweight to what we would expect for
(06:21):
their age, for their height, for their race, etc. So
this is an eating disorder that's characterized by restriction, where
someone ends up being very underweight and can develop a
range of mental health and physical health problems as a
result of that. So not only do we find that
people with anorexia will have significantly low body weight, but
(06:43):
they'll also often have this fear of gaining weight. So
the drive to lose weight is perpetuated by a fear
of gaining weight. And some of the common sort of
signs or symptoms that we might see could be when
someone's significantly underweight, for a female, they stop getting their period,
they might develop sort of very fine hair all over
(07:04):
their body. They might get headaches. They might experience heart
problems because their heart is working extra hard to sort
of fuel them through the day. They might be very
preoccupied with calories with the food that they eat. They
might wear sort of baggy clothing to sort of hide
some of their weight loss from people. There's a whole
a range of ways in which it can actually present.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
And what about bolimia, what exactly is it?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Bolimia is another very common eating disorder, and it's characterized
by two key features. So these are binges and purges.
So I'll explain what these are. A binge is not
just overeating, right, not overeating in the sense when we
go out for dinner and we eat a little bit
too much pizza, right, That's not what a binge is.
(07:51):
A binge is when someone eats an excessive amount of food,
usually kind of within a two hour window. They're usually
sort of carb heavy or like saturated, fatty, sugary kind
of foods, and a person feels like this behavior is
out of their control. They feel like they're eating even
though they're full, even though they might feel discomfort in
(08:14):
their stomach or internally, but they're eating in a way
that feels out of their control. This is what we
refer to as sort of a binge. So people with
bolimia will experience these binges and then they will also purge.
So this is a compensatory behavior. People are compensating for
the binge that they've had. So this might look like
(08:35):
using laxatives, diuretics, vomiting, or excessive exercise. So there's some
sort of compensatory behavior to compensate for the binge that
someone has had, and unfortunately, people can end up in
this binge purge cycle. That's what we are talking about ultimately,
when we're talking about bolimia.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Is boliema different than binge eating disorder?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Yes, So binge eating disorder is a different diagnosis to
bolimia nevosa. Binge eating disorder is where someone experiences those
same binges as in bolimia, but they don't have the purges.
They don't have necessarily the vomiting or the use of
laxatives or excessive exercise to compensate for that. So binge
eating disorder is characterized by the binges, but we don't
(09:21):
see the purges. Now, look, I define these different eating
disorders in these ways, but realistically, there are many people
who don't fit into these very neat categories of binges
and purges and restrictions, right, And so that's why actually
in the diagnostic manual we have what we refer to
as this category of unspecified eating disorders. And this isn't
(09:44):
to say that they're not specific. It's just that people
don't always fit into neat categories, but yet they can
still be experiencing difficulties. So one example of this is
actually something we refer to as atypical anorexia. So usually
with anorexia, we would expect someone to have very low
body weight. However, if someone starts at a high body weight,
(10:08):
they can rapidly lose a lot of weight and show
all the same signs and symptoms as someone with anorexia,
but they just don't have that very low underweight presentation
that we would expect. So this is what we refer
to as atypical anorexia. And the reason we do this
is because we want to ensure these people are receiving
the important care that they need. There's also one other
(10:31):
eating disorder that I'll mention that's a little bit different
to the others, it's called ARFORD, which is avoidant restrictive
food intake disorder. Now, this is a very different kind
of presentation. It's almost what we would refer to as
someone who is quote unquote a bit of a fussy eater.
So what we see is that these people really typically
(10:53):
prefer to eat maybe bland foods, or they have sensory
difficulties that makes it hard for them to eat a
wide variety of different foods. This is common for people
who have things like autism, for example, or other neurodevelopmental
disorders as well.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Now, I know that you've walked through a few different
types of eating disorders, and you know you mentioned that
statistic before around how common eating disorders are Out of
these different types, are there certain ones that are more
common than others?
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, So the research actually shows the most common classification
is that unspecified category, right, And I think this just
speaks to the so many different ways in which disordered
eating can present for people. So that's actually the most common,
and then we know from there on it's binge eating disorder,
followed by bilimia and then followed by anorexia.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
And kind of coming back actually to the statistic that
you mentioned and you were speaking to how many people
actually have it, but only very few get support. What's
the reason behind that? Is that purely a shame piece
or an awareness piece.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
A lot of different things. So for some people it
really can be you know, embarrassment or shame. For some
people it can be not knowing where to turn to
for help. Also, many of our while services for eating
disorders are really quite specialized, they require specialist training to
be an eating disorder clinician, and so there can sometimes
be a lack of services available as well. But the
(12:23):
other important piece is that when people experience an eating disorder,
they often experience this internal division. There is a part
of them that does want to get better and be
better and feel healthy, and there is another part of
them that's the eating disorder that's fighting for survival. And
so the eating disorder can actually prevent people from reaching
(12:45):
out and getting the help that they need.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
So what causes an eating disorder? Because I know we
spoke to around the ideal body and it being society
that's kind of influencing that, are there other factors beyond that?
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yes, So definitely culture and society influences the development of
eating disorders. If someone's grown up in a household where
there's been a really strong focus on diet culture, this
can be a risk factor. There's of course the genetic
risk factors that come through as well, but also things
like trauma. If you've experienced trauma growing up, you might
(13:20):
be more vulnerable to developing and eating disorder. People who
have a tendency to be quite perfectionistic, to be quite
hard on themselves and very internally critical. But also there's
research showing that control can be a big part. People
who feel like and young people who feel like they
want a sense of control in their life might be
(13:41):
vulnerable to developing and eating disorder.
Speaker 1 (13:44):
Who is most at risk with getting an eating disorder?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So while I said before eating disorders don't discriminate men
and women both experience them, we do know that adolescent
females are very vulnerable and vary at risk. There's also
certain categories of people who engage in elite sports, so
like elite gymnasts, elite sports people, elite dancers are also
(14:07):
vary at risk. Again, there's a cultural element to that
as well, as you know the genetics that come through
as being of vulnerability as well. But people who have
high levels of stress, who have other mental health disorders,
that they can all be very vulnerable.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
It was really interesting in what you stated before around
how eating disorders isn't just experienced by women, it's also
experienced by men. Can you tell me more about that.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Absolutely, it's about thirty three percent of people who have
an eating disorder who are male, right, and if that's
a really significant amount, that's around a third. And I
think we really have to recognize that and acknowledge that
because there can be a lot of stigma and shame
for males who are wanting to reach out to get
support for eating related behaviors because it is seen as
(14:53):
such a typically female thing. It's going to be even
harder for men to reach out and get the help
and support they need if there's stigma around men having
eating disorders.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
What about myths in general? What are some of the
other myths that are out there when it comes to
eating disorders.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Well, I think the common one is about who gets
eating disorders? Right that you know it's typically affecting the white, young,
middle class adolescent female. Now we know, yes, they are vulnerable,
but it's not just the case eating disorders can affect
anyone from any walk of life, doesn't matter their cultural background,
their age, their life experiences. It's true that the peak
(15:33):
onset is between around twelve to twenty five years old,
so we want to definitely be aware of that because
we always know early intervention is best. But realistically, eating
disorders can affect anyone, and they do.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So I'm all about encouraging people to eat healthy, but
when does healthy actually start to become harmful?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
When is healthy too healthy? Yes? Exactly, yes, So there
is actually a category. It's not officially recognized at the
moment yet in our diagnostic manual, but the research supports it.
It's something called orthorexia, and this is where a person
has as an obsession with healthy or quote unquote clean eating.
(16:15):
So they're very obsessed with kind of the benefits of
health foods. They're always you know, going to the health
food shop. Everything they eat has to be healthy, it
has to be clean. And I mean we see these
trends and fads go through social media as well, right,
so we can definitely be pulled in that direction through
what social media is perpetuating. But we want to be
mindful about, of course, always keeping our food intake in balance. Right.
(16:39):
We if we become obsessively focused with clean, healthy eating,
we run the risk of developing something like orthorexia.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
So interesting you mentioned that term because I've never heard
of that term before. So there you go. I'm learning something.
This is great, But I think something else that I
want to unpack a little bit is you know, body image,
body positivity. We hear these terms thrown around a lot,
but what does that actually mean to have a healthy relationship.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah, there's a difference between We've been talking about eating disorders,
but if we sort of take a sh shift away
from specifically talking about eating disorders to talking about body image. Right,
this is essentially the feelings, the attitudes, the beliefs we
have towards ourselves about our body. It's kind of essentially
how we feel about our body and the relationship we
(17:26):
have with it.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
This is such an enormous topic. We're up against so
many factors, culture, genetic, social media. Stay with us because
after the shortbreak, doctor Anastasia is going to explain how
we can start building healthier relationships with our bodies. Okay, Anastasia,
(17:50):
how do we actually start building a healthier relationship with
our bodies?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
It's an excellent question. What I'm going to talk about
relates to body image and not eating disorder specifically, because
with eating disorders, we really want to ensure people are
seeking out specific specialized treatment for their exact conditions. And
I don't want to be giving advice for how to
treat an eating disorder on a podcast, right, So I
recommend people go to their GPS, to health professionals, to
(18:17):
the Butterfly Foundation website and get the relevant information and
treatment that they need. But if we can talk about
body image and how to build a healthier relationship with
our body, my key one word takeaway for our listeners
is acceptance. So acceptance is not the same as approval
(18:38):
or as liking something by me accepting my body, It's
not necessarily me saying that I like every part or
feature about it. Right. The thing is, if we look
for something wrong, or if we look for something that
we don't like about our body, I guarantee you we
will find it. And if you want to try a
little bit of an experiment for anyone listening along, hold
(18:59):
up your hand and just take a moment to look
at it right like, and I mean really look at
it in depth, look at the details, Look at the
little wrinkles, the little the little veins that pop through,
and just notice all the bits that you haven't ever
really quite noticed before. I can see I'm a nail bier,
(19:21):
self confessed nail bier. I can see little bits of
my nails that are all crooked, and I can see
bits of skin that don't look so great, and I
can see, you know, veins that are coming through my
skin that the more I look at them, the more
kind of off putting they look. Right, if we focus
on anything heavily and look for flaws, will find it right.
(19:44):
And the same applies for our body when we're constantly
getting so much messaging about how our body should be.
If we hyper focus on our bodies and what they
should look like, we will find perceived flaws in them.
So that's why it's not necessarily about liking every little
part of our body. It's about accepting it for what
it is.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It kind of reminds me, and it's somewhat on topic,
but when you buy a car and then you see
that same car everywhere, it's like, it's amazing how the
power of our perception, Like, how much power our perception holds.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yes, Yes, if we choose to focus on something, we
will see it. Right if you tell yourself every day
I don't like I don't know the shape of my nose, Right,
every time I look in the mirror, I'm going to
be focusing on my nose because it's what's at the
forefront of my thinking. Yeah, And I would actually encourage
people to go maybe even one step further than the
(20:38):
body acceptance if they're willing to, and that is leaning
into gratitude. Can we not just accept our body for
what it is, but can we actually look towards having
gratitude for what our body can actually do? So this
is where we sort of shift our attention more away
from what our body looks like to the function of
(21:00):
our body. So again I invite listeners to just sort
of take a moment of pause and reflection and think
about the things that your body does every single day
that keeps you running, that keeps you functioning, and try
to open yourself up to gratitude for those things. You know,
(21:21):
Can I be grateful for the fact that I have
lungs that help me breathe every day? Can I be
grateful for the fact that I have legs that walk
me around every day. Can I be grateful the fact
that I have a voice and I can sing along
in the car to all sorts of songs when I
feel like it right personally for me, I go, you
(21:42):
know what, I'm grateful for my hands. I love to
play the piano and my fingers and my hands help
me play the piano. I don't know if you've got
any Ashani that you're grateful for, for what your body
can do that you can lean into.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I feel like for me my legs, I'm really grateful
for my legs. I've had a very much a love
hate relationship with them, but I'm grateful for my legs
because it helps me to get from one place to another. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Absolutely. And if there are particular parts of the body
that people are struggling with, you know, if I struggle
with my stomach and my tummy, can I reframe that
to go, you know what? Actually, I'm grateful for my stomach,
for the fact that it can process food and that
it can keep me alive and working and nourishing and
fueling the body in the way that it needs to.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
And it's really interesting because even me talking about my legs,
it felt unnatural talking about what I was grateful for,
And I can imagine there's an element of just knowing
that this is a new muscle we're developing. We're so
used to being so critical on the parts of our body,
and now we're shifting gears to practice this muscle of gratitude.
So I can imagine we'll take time.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Absolutely absolutely and if we like really stop and think
about all the amazing, incredible things the body can do,
like think in depth, think tendons, think muscles, thinks blood cells,
and you know, everything else that makes up the inner
workings of the body. We almost do it a disservice
by focusing so much on just the outward appearance of it.
There's so much under the skin that's working all the
(23:10):
time when we're awake and when we're asleep that does
so much. So there's really a lot there to be
grateful for.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
And it's really great that we're focusing on building the
muscle of gratitude because I feel often it's only when
you know, we injure ourselves that we actually start to realize, oh,
I should be more grateful for this, but I wasn't before.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Absolutely, Sometimes it takes losing something or as you said,
having an injury or suffering in some way for us
to really recognize what we have to be grateful for.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
So, how do we build a healthy relationship with our
body in the midst of social media and media, because
the reality is these things aren't going anywhere.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Yeah, critical thinking is what I recommend here. Right, We're
going to get TikTok reels and news headlines and stories
that sell that catch our attention, that maybe sometimes polarizing,
and so this is really where we need to hone
into our critical thinking skills when it comes to what
is and isn't real on social media and what maybe
(24:11):
we should be taking with a grain of salt. There's
nothing wrong with wanting to look and feel a particular
way in our body. Right. This segment is not to
say that anyone who values their appearance is wrong or
not good. Absolutely we can value that. We've just got
to make sure we value it in conjunction with other
(24:32):
important things as well.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
After this shortbreak, we hear from a woman who's worried
her friend might be displayed symptoms of disordered eating and
he's wondering how we can address it. Stay with us, baby,
Barb Barby, I'm having a serious cristis BRB having a crisis.
We've reached the time in our episode where we answer
(24:56):
a question or dilemma from one of you. This dilemma
comes from Claudia.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I'm really worried about a close friend.
Speaker 4 (25:04):
I've been noticing signs that are pointing towards disordered eating.
When we go out, she never eats anything, and this
has been how inconsistently for a few months now. There's
definitely a pattern. If I suggest getting brunch or dinner,
she'll steer us towards doing something that doesn't involve food,
and she looks unwell, like genuinely malnourished, and it feels
as if it's starting to affect her personality and her energy.
(25:26):
I care about her a lot, but I'm struggling with
how to handle it. I don't want to make her
feel judged or defensive, or like I'm crossing a line.
But at the same time, staying silent doesn't feel right either.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
I don't know if any of our.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Mutual friends or her family have noticed. So should I
bring it up with her directly, check in with someone
close to her, or should I just stay out of it?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Claudia, this is a tough one, and I feel for
you and your friend who it sounds like he's going
through a really hard time at the moment. My takeaway
recommendation for you is not necessarily what to say to
your friend, because at the end of the day, you
know her best, you know how she's going to react
and respond, you know the best way to approach her.
(26:07):
But I would suggest this approach care and curiosity. Curiosity
is a foundational quality that we can come to relationships
with and hard conversations with. It allows for us and
others to communicate in a really open and vulnerable way.
(26:27):
So if you do decide to have a conversation with her,
which is what I would recommend, then I would say
approach it with this genuine openness and curiosity, where you're
not passing judgments, you're not assuming you know what's going
on for her, you're not assuming you know what she's
struggling with, but you really just want to understand how
she's going and what she might be struggling with. And
(26:49):
if your friends can feel that genuineness and that openness
and curiosity from you, there's a greater chance she might
be open to wanting to sort of share how she's
feeling and what she might be struggling with. So really
leaning to the care and the curiosity, I would recommend
you have a conversation with her because one of the
things we know with a lot of mental health conditions,
(27:11):
but also eating disorders, is that the earlier we can intervene,
the better, and the conversation you might have with your
friend might just be the starting point for her to
talk to someone about it. And maybe she's never spoken
to anyone about her eating patterns before, so you might
actually be the first person who's had the courage to
reflect to her how she might be going and if
(27:34):
she needs help with anything, you might be the first
person she's ever been able to talk to this about.
And if you're not, you might just be the person
who helps her take that next step. So congratulations for
being a great friend, for noticing that your friend is struggling,
and for having the willingness and the courage to be
able to have a conversation with her.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Good luck, Claudia, we know you've got this. Anastasia, can
you reiterate some of the main takeaways from today's episode.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Absolutely, First of all, eating disorders are serious mental health conditions,
so if you're worried that you or someone you know
might be suffering from disordered eating, reach out to a
health professional or a GP to get the relevant treatment. Second,
it's important to know that recovery from eating disorders is
possible with treatment. Third, even if we don't have an
(28:32):
eating disorder, we can still struggle with our body image.
And lastly, we can change how we feel about our
body by practicing acceptance and gratitude.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
If you have a burning question for us, there are
a few ways to get in touch with us, links
through in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
And remember, while I am a psychologist, this podcast isn't
a diagnostic tool, and the advice and ideas we present
here should always take into account your personal medical history.
The executive producer of But Are You Happy is Naima Brown.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Our senior producer is Tarlie Blackman.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Sound design and editing by.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Jacob I'm Ashani Dante.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
And I'm doctor Anaesthesia heronus. The names and stories of
clients discussed have been changed for the purpose of maintaining anonymity.
If this conversation brought up any difficult feelings for you,
we have links for more resources in the show notes.
Around the topics we discussed today. You can also reach
out to organizations like Beyond Blue, Lifeline or the Butterfly
(29:34):
Foundation if you're wanting more immediate support. Next week, we
discuss how to have what I call a good fight,
one that's free from criticism, defensiveness, and all those traps
we fall into when emotions run high.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Mamma Mia Studios are starred with furniture from Fenton and Fenton.
Visit Fentonanfentin dot com dot au. Thanks for listening, See
you next time