October 12, 2021 • 24 mins
In this episode we speak with with Jonas Hansryd & Yinggang Li from Ericsson about the progress of the Car2TERA project. They share some details about why this project is so important for the future of automobiles and what Ericsson is doing to push this effort forward.
The Car2TERA project has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 824962.
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Episode Transcript
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Intro (00:01):
This is a Technikon podcast.
Peter Balint (host) (00:08):
Every day we get behind the wheel and rely on
our cars to safely take us to wherever we want
to go. Our cars are an amalgam of decades of
best practices intertwined with the latest technology. And from this,
(00:30):
we get the modern automobile, which is undoubtedly right now
at the pinnacle of auto safety. But what's next? Where
do we go from here and what will it take
to get there? I'm Peter Balint from Technikon. And today
we look at the Car2TERA project. When you look to
(00:51):
the future of automobiles, what do you see? If you
said autonomous driving, you would be in the majority. While
we can all see the benefits of the partially or
fully autonomous vehicles, the amount of research on the topic
which is happening at this moment is absolutely astounding. And
(01:14):
it's mostly in the name of safety. Imagine, for example,
an in-cabin radar sensor which knows what each passenger is
doing at any given time; sleeping, reading upright or reclined.
Using these instantaneous data points, the car's computer can decide
the most effective sequence of airbag deployment in case of collision.
(01:40):
The speed at which this happens is the business of
Car2TERA - as you can imagine, it's got to be fast.
Exploring sub terahertz frequencies and lightning fast communications are a
few of the goals in this project. I recently had
the opportunity to sit down with Jonas Hansryd and Yinggang
Li from project partner Ericsson in Sweden, which of course
(02:03):
is a global provider of ICT equipment and services. And
as it turns out, our automobiles are quickly becoming complex
communication centers on wheels. As such, they must be outfitted
with the right stuff. Let's have a listen. Welcome, gentlemen,
(02:26):
and thanks for joining me today.
Jonas Hansryd (02:29):
Thank you, Peter.
Yinggang Li (02:32):
You're welcome.
Peter Balint (host) (02:32):
From Ericsson's point of view, why is this project important? Or,
in other words, what is the problem to solve and
how will the discoveries in Car2TERA help find answers? And
we'll start with you Jonas.
Jonas Hansryd (02:46):
Thanks. This is really key, of course, a key question,
and I think we all are aware that we have a
continous increase in the amount of digital data that we
are processing in this society and in the telecom business
we see the same same kind of problem there and
in particular with the when we have more, more and
(03:06):
more advanced radios and more wider and wider bandwidth that
we need to to support and we have a... able to
introduce more and more advanced features like beamforming and different
types of MIMO systems. We need to process a lot
of data. We have already reached terabits per second that we need
to process inside our radios. So it's a lot of
(03:28):
data to transport around. And this takes both a lot
of energy and generates a lot of a lot of
heat that we need to be able to handle. So
today we do this using traditional copper lines, or we
can also use fiber optic technology using lasers. The problem
with copper is that it's quite limited in bandwidth, so
(03:51):
that is the bottleneck going to wider bandwidth and more
more advanced radios. The problem with optics is both that
it's quite an expensive technology and also the our radios are
becoming quite quite warm. And that is also something we
see a lot of different industries like data centers, automotive
(04:12):
and need ... in order to introduce optics, optics is a quite
temperature sensitive technology. You cannot... you cannot have too high
temperatures inside the equipment, so you need to take care of
that heat in some way and that this expensive and
costly if you want to use lasers. So with the
(04:34):
technology that we are trying to develop in Car2TERA here,
we are trying to make something that is an alternative
to both copper and optical communication. We use real high frequencies,
terahertz frequencies and are trying to guide it in plastic waveguides.
(04:54):
So it would be an alternative to optical and copper technology.
And that will solve... if you can make that kind of technology,
and it would solve a lot of problems for us
when we are building our radios.
Peter Balint (host) (05:09):
Yinggang, can you add anything?
Yinggang Li (05:11):
I just want to emphasize what Janas talking is, the
short range, high speed data link we are talking about
within the product and so on.
Peter Balint (host) (05:22):
So let's zoom out a bit and look at the
benefit of Car2TERA , to the citizen and technology sectors
in the EU. Yinggang, can you tell us more?
Yinggang Li (05:31):
Yes. Following what Jonas said about the tremendous amount of
data the society's consuming now, I just want to add
one note that the high speed data links are needed
not only for telecom communications, but also for many, many
other industries, including, for example, data center security imaging sensors
(05:56):
and automotive radars, which which is a very active areas
nowadays also, and therefore the relevance to consumers, end users -the general citizens
will benefit a lot in economically and in environmentaly from
(06:16):
the development of these cost and energy efficient solutions, but
transferring this huge amount of data is also consumes a
lot of energy and created a lot of heat. So
it is also environmentally important to develop this kind of
energy efficient solutions. So the whole citizens and I think
(06:39):
consumers will benefit from this and from a more technology research
aspect for the European Union, I think the research carried out
in Car2TERA will position Europe as at the forefront of
the field of Terahertz, Terabit datalink Technologies.
Jonas Hansryd (07:00):
We should not also forget that the Car2TERA is... we
have two different demos trators that we're trying to build
-the common denominator for for these two technologies is really
terahertz frequencies right that we are trying to to use
the features and trying to tame terahertz frequencies then they
(07:20):
make useful applications for both of these really high frequencies
and the benefit of terahertz... I mean, if if we
can use terahertz technology it has a lot of really interesting
things we can do with it. I mean this the
really short wavelength gives us the possibility to make radars
(07:42):
with really, really high resolution, as we're trying to do
in in the first demonstrator that we're working with here
in Car2TERA . That would be an in-vehicle sensor trying to
see and find where the passenger inside the car is
(08:03):
placed and what that first is doing -is breathing or
alive and what is happening during like if we have
some kind of collision. And so something that is you
can you can make radar with extremely high resolution, something that
is not possible to do with microwave or millimeter wave frequencies.
(08:23):
So that is really exciting. And I think and the
other application, as we said, I mean that is these
for for like quite short interconnects, really high capacities, short
interconnects that would be an alternative and more temperature and
the low cost alternative to the optics and the wider
bandwidth alternative than compared to classic copper interconnects. So I
(08:49):
think I mean, trying to understand how we can build
the terahertz systems is really the key here of of
Car2TERA and that is what really will benefit the citizens
of the European Union, we will really... with Car2TERA I mean,
this is one of many terahertz product in the world
(09:10):
right now trying to investigate what we can do with
terahertz frequencies. I think this is one of the leading
projects and if we really bring European Union in the
forefront of this technology area.
Peter Balint (host) (09:22):
So based on what you are saying, sub terahertz technologies
are being widely studied and researched. And even though Car2TERA
is focusing on the automobile, the discoveries and advancements could
impact any number of related or even unrelated industries.
Jonas Hansryd (09:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I really believe that and I think I mean,
we want to apply for the second demonstrator here that
we're trying to build the the short range inter connect.
I mean that one can be applied both in automotive
and telecom and in data centers, in the high performance computing.
So the market for that kind of technology is is huge.
(10:05):
Once we have taken it to a sufficiently high maturity level,
that is the direction that we are going in for
sure and we will reach that, I think, in the
coming five to ten years. I'm personally convinced about that.
Peter Balint (host) (10:19):
Knowing there's a strong market in this field is like
the light at the end of the tunnel, I suppose. Yin-Yang,
maybe you can answer this. As stated earlier, Car2TERA is
an effort to aid in the design of automated vehicles.
And as we have discussed in earlier episodes, this means
the project focuses on two specific areas. Number one being
(10:42):
a new type of car radar sensor for inside the vehicle.
And secondly short distance high data rate Terahertz over plastic
data links for telecommunication which one of these is Ericsson
focused on.
Yinggang Li (10:57):
First of all, you said that Car2TERA is an effort
to aid in the design of automotive vehicles. It is correct,
but not quite accurate. The more accurate statement is, the
project aims to develop the hardware of technologies, more specifically
(11:17):
hardware integration platform, which should be applicable to many different
systems in various industry areas. Automotive vehicles and telecom are just
the two typical examples picked up by the project. But
the technology to be developed in Car2TERA should not be limited
(11:39):
to ways to to use cases. Talking about the Erissson's
focus I mean, for obvious reasons, Ericsson's focus is on the short range,
high speed data links based on these plastic fibers and
that we are talking of using, as Jonas mentioned already, using terahertz frequencies and
(12:04):
also talking of a speed typically above 100 gigabits per second towards tera bit per second data speed.
Peter Balint (host) (12:15):
Thanks, Yinggang, for that clarification. Car2TERA is using the sub terahertz
frequency spectrum. Where else do we see these kinds of
super high frequency communications nowadays?
Jonas Hansryd (12:28):
I think we I think we were into this a
little bit earlier here, Peter, that I mean, I think
we can see a big need for this in many
areas really taking, for instance, image processing where we have
the in in graphical processing units, GPUs connection between if
(12:49):
you have multicore solutions there and how to connect the
different graphics and processors is one interesting area that it would be
would be helpful for this inside the... inside cars. Also
(13:11):
for satellite communication that would be able to need for this. And,
of course, data centers.
Yinggang Li (13:21):
I think first of all, first of all, let me
say what we mean by sub terahertz frequencies on the spectrum,
horizon from 100 gigahertz up to like, say typically a
few hundred gigahertz saying 350 years someone might OK, up
(13:43):
to 500 gigahertz. This is really a hot research topic nowadays;
in addition to the wired short range high speed data links
we are keeping talking about in this podcast, in Car2TERA and -
(14:03):
there are more applications of this type of terahertz communications
for example, the for this laser spectrum is considered right
now and already proposed for involved 5G. And even 6G
wireless access in mobile communications in future. So let's say
(14:25):
about 10 years, it's very, very unlikely that the mobile
phones in our hands properly are using frequency, use the
sub terahertz or even terahertz bands. However, using these bands is
not new and traditionally sub terahertz and terahertz have been used
already in imaging and sensing applications for security applications and for
(14:48):
materials investigations such as ... to determine the water content
and that is usually in the materials, for example.
Peter Balint (host) (14:59):
So sub terahertz frequency spectrums have been used in various
industries for quite some time. Let's focus back a little
bit towards automobiles. Just a few years ago, automobiles had
minimal built in communication, hardware and sensors, and this is
now changing rapidly. Can you give us an idea of
how these communication devices and sensors will be used in
(15:21):
the future?
Yinggang Li (15:23):
First of all, I have to say I am not
an automobile expert, but I totally agree with you that that
the things that are happening, and changing very rapidly there as well,
like like a telecom industry. As as far as I know,
future vehicles in particular, the self-driving cars requires sensing and
(15:47):
a radar system that must operate in a cooperative way
for both in-car and out car sensors and radars covering
the whole 360 degrees surrounding environment. So, the short range
high speed data link devices be developed in Car2TERA should find their application
(16:12):
values there as well to support that coordinate car radar systems.
For example, if you have sensors and various types of
sensors on the radars surrounding the car and you need
a central processing for the images to make decisions there,
(16:32):
and then you need to link to and directly to
transfer the high speed data from the radar to the
central processing. So that is where devices to be developed
in Car2TERA can be found very valuable. Another aspect is that
if you're looking for the future, the automotive industry and
(16:56):
the telecom industry, we are moving closer closer to each other.
It's actually happening nowadays is the moving closer are closer
to each other in terms of the tremendous communications that
that we're helping with with the vehicle. In addition to in-car communications,
the two industries are now today's nowadays working together in
(17:20):
R&D to formulate as basis of for example for wireless remote
vehicle control, vehicle to vehicle communication, what is called a
V2E vehicle to infrastructure, communication called V2I and even a
vehicle to two areas in communication V2X . So this
(17:42):
is a this is a very active research area around
these two industries and Ericsson of course, is a very
active player in this field and it is active cooperation
with the local vehicle companies in Sweden and proceeding to
carry out the research and development right now.
Peter Balint (host) (18:02):
This is very interesting the narrowing gap between automobiles and
communications, Jonas do you have anything to add?
Jonas Hansryd (18:10):
Yeah, maybe. Maybe I can just add a few things here.
I think I mean, to have these large number of
sensors and devices inside the vehicle, it's it's a it's
a trend that we see in general. I wouldn't necessarily
do that. I mean, we are getting access to more
and more sensors and inside society, and we will try to...
(18:35):
something that we talked about this digital twin we tried to build
a digital twin in order to both to for it
to be able to to monitor the performance for you,
maybe as a driver inside your vehicle or... but also
the possibility for it to get help or support from others
(18:58):
when you have some problems. And in order to do that,
you need to have as much information as possible to
try and make as good pictures as possible out of your vehicle
or of your place that you want to to to
monitor in the society. And really, what is driving all
of this is really the connectivity that you have the
(19:20):
possibility to connect all of these devices and sensors, and
that is something... that is an area where Ericsson is
extremely active in both automotive , but also the society
in itself and to be able to connect a lot
of devices and sensors that is something that is important
(19:41):
both in in 5G and 5G gives you a lot of tools to
do that, but also with sixth generation of mobile technology.
So it is a general trend that we see this,
that we will have more and more sensors around us
that will help us and support us.
Peter Balint (host) (20:02):
OK. So and as you say, the sensors yeah, this
is fine, but they all have to be connected in
some way, and it sounds like this is kind of
your push in Car2TERA.
Jonas Hansryd (20:11):
The connectivity... I mean, both connectivity that we can really
connect that to them in an energy and cost efficient way.
Peter Balint (host) (20:20):
Right. OK. And when I mentioned these projects to people,
to citizens of the EU, a question that's often asked is,
"So when do we see the results of what's happening
in this project or when will this technology become a
part of my daily life?" and to answer that question,
(20:42):
we have to look at something called TRL, which is
technology readiness level, and it helps to know which technology
readiness level you're working in. And it goes from one
to nine and one being basic research on a technology.
And then as you progress to nine, it's testing more
(21:03):
testing demonstrations all the way up to system testing, launch
and operations, which means it's ready to be marketed or
sold or used on a commercial basis. So knowing this,
where do you fit in on the TRL as far
as the work that you're doing in Car2TERA ?
Jonas Hansryd (21:25):
Yes. So the goal of both both demonstrators in Car2TERA
is to cross TRL 4 if we can reach TRL 5, that would
be really good. But the goal is really to cross
TRL four, which is a small scale prototype.
Yinggang Li (21:41):
I think I think Jonas is right, we should see
above TRL 4 exactly whether it is a five or six.
It's very, very difficult to do a exact mapping, but
our target is developing a demonstrator system at which I
would not call the product prototype yet. But the one
(22:03):
thing I want to comment is our specifications or requirements
for the demonstrator are based on system requirement from Ericsson's
real product perspective. That is, we could assume with enduser as always in the
EU project, like Car2TERA, an enduser like Ericsson where we normally do, or almost always
(22:29):
to provide system requirements based on real applications. So we
are currently not we are not developing only lab and
laboratory results, but we want to make... make sure that every technology
method process developed in this project will be possible to
(22:54):
commercialize for mass production and also for commercialization so that
it that is good to the what is good, I
think with Ericsson to be involved in this Car2TERA project.
Peter Balint (host) (23:08):
Well, marketability is certainly another aspect to throw in the mix.
Making everything work together in a way that's efficient as
far as costs go and efficient in terms of energy
and also marketable. That's the challenge.
Yinggang Li (23:24):
Yeah, I agree. That's that is a point yeah .
Peter Balint (host) (23:27):
Well, thank you, Yinggang and Jonas for your insights into
Car2TERA . This project ends early next year, and I
hope we have time to talk again for an update.
Yinggang Li (23:38):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Jonas Hansryd (23:39):
Thanks a lot Peter, thank you.
Peter Balint (host) (23:40):
Thank you. For more information about the Car2TERA project, go
to car2tera.eu. The Car2TERA Project has received funding from the
European Union's Horizon 2020 research and Innovation Programme under grant
agreement number eight two four nine six two.
This is a Technikon podcast.
Peter Balint (host) (00:08):
Every day we get behind the wheel and rely on
our cars to safely take us to wherever we want
to go. Our cars are an amalgam of decades of
best practices intertwined with the latest technology. And from this,
(00:30):
we get the modern automobile, which is undoubtedly right now
at the pinnacle of auto safety. But what's next? Where
do we go from here and what will it take
to get there? I'm Peter Balint from Technikon. And today
we look at the Car2TERA project. When you look to
(00:51):
the future of automobiles, what do you see? If you
said autonomous driving, you would be in the majority. While
we can all see the benefits of the partially or
fully autonomous vehicles, the amount of research on the topic
which is happening at this moment is absolutely astounding. And
(01:14):
it's mostly in the name of safety. Imagine, for example,
an in-cabin radar sensor which knows what each passenger is
doing at any given time; sleeping, reading upright or reclined.
Using these instantaneous data points, the car's computer can decide
the most effective sequence of airbag deployment in case of collision.
(01:40):
The speed at which this happens is the business of
Car2TERA - as you can imagine, it's got to be fast.
Exploring sub terahertz frequencies and lightning fast communications are a
few of the goals in this project. I recently had
the opportunity to sit down with Jonas Hansryd and Yinggang
Li from project partner Ericsson in Sweden, which of course
(02:03):
is a global provider of ICT equipment and services. And
as it turns out, our automobiles are quickly becoming complex
communication centers on wheels. As such, they must be outfitted
with the right stuff. Let's have a listen. Welcome, gentlemen,
(02:26):
and thanks for joining me today.
Jonas Hansryd (02:29):
Thank you, Peter.
Yinggang Li (02:32):
You're welcome.
Peter Balint (host) (02:32):
From Ericsson's point of view, why is this project important? Or,
in other words, what is the problem to solve and
how will the discoveries in Car2TERA help find answers? And
we'll start with you Jonas.
Jonas Hansryd (02:46):
Thanks. This is really key, of course, a key question,
and I think we all are aware that we have a
continous increase in the amount of digital data that we
are processing in this society and in the telecom business
we see the same same kind of problem there and
in particular with the when we have more, more and
(03:06):
more advanced radios and more wider and wider bandwidth that
we need to to support and we have a... able to
introduce more and more advanced features like beamforming and different
types of MIMO systems. We need to process a lot
of data. We have already reached terabits per second that we need
to process inside our radios. So it's a lot of
(03:28):
data to transport around. And this takes both a lot
of energy and generates a lot of a lot of
heat that we need to be able to handle. So
today we do this using traditional copper lines, or we
can also use fiber optic technology using lasers. The problem
with copper is that it's quite limited in bandwidth, so
(03:51):
that is the bottleneck going to wider bandwidth and more
more advanced radios. The problem with optics is both that
it's quite an expensive technology and also the our radios are
becoming quite quite warm. And that is also something we
see a lot of different industries like data centers, automotive
(04:12):
and need ... in order to introduce optics, optics is a quite
temperature sensitive technology. You cannot... you cannot have too high
temperatures inside the equipment, so you need to take care of
that heat in some way and that this expensive and
costly if you want to use lasers. So with the
(04:34):
technology that we are trying to develop in Car2TERA here,
we are trying to make something that is an alternative
to both copper and optical communication. We use real high frequencies,
terahertz frequencies and are trying to guide it in plastic waveguides.
(04:54):
So it would be an alternative to optical and copper technology.
And that will solve... if you can make that kind of technology,
and it would solve a lot of problems for us
when we are building our radios.
Peter Balint (host) (05:09):
Yinggang, can you add anything?
Yinggang Li (05:11):
I just want to emphasize what Janas talking is, the
short range, high speed data link we are talking about
within the product and so on.
Peter Balint (host) (05:22):
So let's zoom out a bit and look at the
benefit of Car2TERA , to the citizen and technology sectors
in the EU. Yinggang, can you tell us more?
Yinggang Li (05:31):
Yes. Following what Jonas said about the tremendous amount of
data the society's consuming now, I just want to add
one note that the high speed data links are needed
not only for telecom communications, but also for many, many
other industries, including, for example, data center security imaging sensors
(05:56):
and automotive radars, which which is a very active areas
nowadays also, and therefore the relevance to consumers, end users -the general citizens
will benefit a lot in economically and in environmentaly from
(06:16):
the development of these cost and energy efficient solutions, but
transferring this huge amount of data is also consumes a
lot of energy and created a lot of heat. So
it is also environmentally important to develop this kind of
energy efficient solutions. So the whole citizens and I think
(06:39):
consumers will benefit from this and from a more technology research
aspect for the European Union, I think the research carried out
in Car2TERA will position Europe as at the forefront of
the field of Terahertz, Terabit datalink Technologies.
Jonas Hansryd (07:00):
We should not also forget that the Car2TERA is... we
have two different demos trators that we're trying to build
-the common denominator for for these two technologies is really
terahertz frequencies right that we are trying to to use
the features and trying to tame terahertz frequencies then they
(07:20):
make useful applications for both of these really high frequencies
and the benefit of terahertz... I mean, if if we
can use terahertz technology it has a lot of really interesting
things we can do with it. I mean this the
really short wavelength gives us the possibility to make radars
(07:42):
with really, really high resolution, as we're trying to do
in in the first demonstrator that we're working with here
in Car2TERA . That would be an in-vehicle sensor trying to
see and find where the passenger inside the car is
(08:03):
placed and what that first is doing -is breathing or
alive and what is happening during like if we have
some kind of collision. And so something that is you
can you can make radar with extremely high resolution, something that
is not possible to do with microwave or millimeter wave frequencies.
(08:23):
So that is really exciting. And I think and the
other application, as we said, I mean that is these
for for like quite short interconnects, really high capacities, short
interconnects that would be an alternative and more temperature and
the low cost alternative to the optics and the wider
bandwidth alternative than compared to classic copper interconnects. So I
(08:49):
think I mean, trying to understand how we can build
the terahertz systems is really the key here of of
Car2TERA and that is what really will benefit the citizens
of the European Union, we will really... with Car2TERA I mean,
this is one of many terahertz product in the world
(09:10):
right now trying to investigate what we can do with
terahertz frequencies. I think this is one of the leading
projects and if we really bring European Union in the
forefront of this technology area.
Peter Balint (host) (09:22):
So based on what you are saying, sub terahertz technologies
are being widely studied and researched. And even though Car2TERA
is focusing on the automobile, the discoveries and advancements could
impact any number of related or even unrelated industries.
Jonas Hansryd (09:41):
Yeah, absolutely. I really believe that and I think I mean,
we want to apply for the second demonstrator here that
we're trying to build the the short range inter connect.
I mean that one can be applied both in automotive
and telecom and in data centers, in the high performance computing.
So the market for that kind of technology is is huge.
(10:05):
Once we have taken it to a sufficiently high maturity level,
that is the direction that we are going in for
sure and we will reach that, I think, in the
coming five to ten years. I'm personally convinced about that.
Peter Balint (host) (10:19):
Knowing there's a strong market in this field is like
the light at the end of the tunnel, I suppose. Yin-Yang,
maybe you can answer this. As stated earlier, Car2TERA is
an effort to aid in the design of automated vehicles.
And as we have discussed in earlier episodes, this means
the project focuses on two specific areas. Number one being
(10:42):
a new type of car radar sensor for inside the vehicle.
And secondly short distance high data rate Terahertz over plastic
data links for telecommunication which one of these is Ericsson
focused on.
Yinggang Li (10:57):
First of all, you said that Car2TERA is an effort
to aid in the design of automotive vehicles. It is correct,
but not quite accurate. The more accurate statement is, the
project aims to develop the hardware of technologies, more specifically
(11:17):
hardware integration platform, which should be applicable to many different
systems in various industry areas. Automotive vehicles and telecom are just
the two typical examples picked up by the project. But
the technology to be developed in Car2TERA should not be limited
(11:39):
to ways to to use cases. Talking about the Erissson's
focus I mean, for obvious reasons, Ericsson's focus is on the short range,
high speed data links based on these plastic fibers and
that we are talking of using, as Jonas mentioned already, using terahertz frequencies and
(12:04):
also talking of a speed typically above 100 gigabits per second towards tera bit per second data speed.
Peter Balint (host) (12:15):
Thanks, Yinggang, for that clarification. Car2TERA is using the sub terahertz
frequency spectrum. Where else do we see these kinds of
super high frequency communications nowadays?
Jonas Hansryd (12:28):
I think we I think we were into this a
little bit earlier here, Peter, that I mean, I think
we can see a big need for this in many
areas really taking, for instance, image processing where we have
the in in graphical processing units, GPUs connection between if
(12:49):
you have multicore solutions there and how to connect the
different graphics and processors is one interesting area that it would be
would be helpful for this inside the... inside cars. Also
(13:11):
for satellite communication that would be able to need for this. And,
of course, data centers.
Yinggang Li (13:21):
I think first of all, first of all, let me
say what we mean by sub terahertz frequencies on the spectrum,
horizon from 100 gigahertz up to like, say typically a
few hundred gigahertz saying 350 years someone might OK, up
(13:43):
to 500 gigahertz. This is really a hot research topic nowadays;
in addition to the wired short range high speed data links
we are keeping talking about in this podcast, in Car2TERA and -
(14:03):
there are more applications of this type of terahertz communications
for example, the for this laser spectrum is considered right
now and already proposed for involved 5G. And even 6G
wireless access in mobile communications in future. So let's say
(14:25):
about 10 years, it's very, very unlikely that the mobile
phones in our hands properly are using frequency, use the
sub terahertz or even terahertz bands. However, using these bands is
not new and traditionally sub terahertz and terahertz have been used
already in imaging and sensing applications for security applications and for
(14:48):
materials investigations such as ... to determine the water content
and that is usually in the materials, for example.
Peter Balint (host) (14:59):
So sub terahertz frequency spectrums have been used in various
industries for quite some time. Let's focus back a little
bit towards automobiles. Just a few years ago, automobiles had
minimal built in communication, hardware and sensors, and this is
now changing rapidly. Can you give us an idea of
how these communication devices and sensors will be used in
(15:21):
the future?
Yinggang Li (15:23):
First of all, I have to say I am not
an automobile expert, but I totally agree with you that that
the things that are happening, and changing very rapidly there as well,
like like a telecom industry. As as far as I know,
future vehicles in particular, the self-driving cars requires sensing and
(15:47):
a radar system that must operate in a cooperative way
for both in-car and out car sensors and radars covering
the whole 360 degrees surrounding environment. So, the short range
high speed data link devices be developed in Car2TERA should find their application
(16:12):
values there as well to support that coordinate car radar systems.
For example, if you have sensors and various types of
sensors on the radars surrounding the car and you need
a central processing for the images to make decisions there,
(16:32):
and then you need to link to and directly to
transfer the high speed data from the radar to the
central processing. So that is where devices to be developed
in Car2TERA can be found very valuable. Another aspect is that
if you're looking for the future, the automotive industry and
(16:56):
the telecom industry, we are moving closer closer to each other.
It's actually happening nowadays is the moving closer are closer
to each other in terms of the tremendous communications that
that we're helping with with the vehicle. In addition to in-car communications,
the two industries are now today's nowadays working together in
(17:20):
R&D to formulate as basis of for example for wireless remote
vehicle control, vehicle to vehicle communication, what is called a
V2E vehicle to infrastructure, communication called V2I and even a
vehicle to two areas in communication V2X . So this
(17:42):
is a this is a very active research area around
these two industries and Ericsson of course, is a very
active player in this field and it is active cooperation
with the local vehicle companies in Sweden and proceeding to
carry out the research and development right now.
Peter Balint (host) (18:02):
This is very interesting the narrowing gap between automobiles and
communications, Jonas do you have anything to add?
Jonas Hansryd (18:10):
Yeah, maybe. Maybe I can just add a few things here.
I think I mean, to have these large number of
sensors and devices inside the vehicle, it's it's a it's
a trend that we see in general. I wouldn't necessarily
do that. I mean, we are getting access to more
and more sensors and inside society, and we will try to...
(18:35):
something that we talked about this digital twin we tried to build
a digital twin in order to both to for it
to be able to to monitor the performance for you,
maybe as a driver inside your vehicle or... but also
the possibility for it to get help or support from others
(18:58):
when you have some problems. And in order to do that,
you need to have as much information as possible to
try and make as good pictures as possible out of your vehicle
or of your place that you want to to to
monitor in the society. And really, what is driving all
of this is really the connectivity that you have the
(19:20):
possibility to connect all of these devices and sensors, and
that is something... that is an area where Ericsson is
extremely active in both automotive , but also the society
in itself and to be able to connect a lot
of devices and sensors that is something that is important
(19:41):
both in in 5G and 5G gives you a lot of tools to
do that, but also with sixth generation of mobile technology.
So it is a general trend that we see this,
that we will have more and more sensors around us
that will help us and support us.
Peter Balint (host) (20:02):
OK. So and as you say, the sensors yeah, this
is fine, but they all have to be connected in
some way, and it sounds like this is kind of
your push in Car2TERA.
Jonas Hansryd (20:11):
The connectivity... I mean, both connectivity that we can really
connect that to them in an energy and cost efficient way.
Peter Balint (host) (20:20):
Right. OK. And when I mentioned these projects to people,
to citizens of the EU, a question that's often asked is,
"So when do we see the results of what's happening
in this project or when will this technology become a
part of my daily life?" and to answer that question,
(20:42):
we have to look at something called TRL, which is
technology readiness level, and it helps to know which technology
readiness level you're working in. And it goes from one
to nine and one being basic research on a technology.
And then as you progress to nine, it's testing more
(21:03):
testing demonstrations all the way up to system testing, launch
and operations, which means it's ready to be marketed or
sold or used on a commercial basis. So knowing this,
where do you fit in on the TRL as far
as the work that you're doing in Car2TERA ?
Jonas Hansryd (21:25):
Yes. So the goal of both both demonstrators in Car2TERA
is to cross TRL 4 if we can reach TRL 5, that would
be really good. But the goal is really to cross
TRL four, which is a small scale prototype.
Yinggang Li (21:41):
I think I think Jonas is right, we should see
above TRL 4 exactly whether it is a five or six.
It's very, very difficult to do a exact mapping, but
our target is developing a demonstrator system at which I
would not call the product prototype yet. But the one
(22:03):
thing I want to comment is our specifications or requirements
for the demonstrator are based on system requirement from Ericsson's
real product perspective. That is, we could assume with enduser as always in the
EU project, like Car2TERA, an enduser like Ericsson where we normally do, or almost always
(22:29):
to provide system requirements based on real applications. So we
are currently not we are not developing only lab and
laboratory results, but we want to make... make sure that every technology
method process developed in this project will be possible to
(22:54):
commercialize for mass production and also for commercialization so that
it that is good to the what is good, I
think with Ericsson to be involved in this Car2TERA project.
Peter Balint (host) (23:08):
Well, marketability is certainly another aspect to throw in the mix.
Making everything work together in a way that's efficient as
far as costs go and efficient in terms of energy
and also marketable. That's the challenge.
Yinggang Li (23:24):
Yeah, I agree. That's that is a point yeah .
Peter Balint (host) (23:27):
Well, thank you, Yinggang and Jonas for your insights into
Car2TERA . This project ends early next year, and I
hope we have time to talk again for an update.
Yinggang Li (23:38):
My pleasure. Thank you.
Jonas Hansryd (23:39):
Thanks a lot Peter, thank you.
Peter Balint (host) (23:40):
Thank you. For more information about the Car2TERA project, go
to car2tera.eu. The Car2TERA Project has received funding from the
European Union's Horizon 2020 research and Innovation Programme under grant
agreement number eight two four nine six two.
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