December 16, 2021 • 11 mins
In this episode, we continue our in-depth look at the EXFILES project. Today we speak with Olivier Thomas, a partner in EXFILES, he along with his team of 10 cyber security experts are responsible for hardware solutions in EXFILES. He shares his thoughts on the project with us and how the knowledge derived from this project can help in training future generations of cyber security experts.
The EXFILES project has received funding from the European Union’s Horizon 2020 research and innovation programme under grant agreement No. 883156
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Intro (00:01):
This is a Technikon podcast.
Peter Balint (00:08):
What makes your mobile telephone work and what makes it
so secure? Well, it's nothing you can see, yes, because
it's inside your phone, but beyond that, the hardware is
actually microscopic. Millions of transistors packed into such a tiny
space is almost beyond comprehension. But as we speak, it's
(00:30):
important for one group of individuals in Europe to understand
how these circuits work, even though they had nothing to
do with a design. I'm Peter Balint from Technikon. This
team of individuals is comprised of federal government, local law
enforcement and intelligence agencies, as well as cybersecurity experts from
(00:50):
across Europe. They are the consortium in the EXFILES project.
Their goal find methods to get into locked phones which
have been seized from criminals. As you have probably guessed,
these phones could contain data that could prevent other crimes. Today,
we speak with Olivier Thomas a partner in EXFILES. He,
(01:12):
along with his team of 10 cybersecurity experts, are responsible
for hardware solutions in EXFILES. He shares his thoughts on
the project with us today. Let's have a listen. So
thank you for coming on today, appreciate it.
Olivier Thomas (01:30):
Thank you. You're welcome.
Peter Balint (01:31):
in the introduction I talked a little bit about EXFILES
and I also mentioned that you come from the company
that's called Texplained. How do you? Can you tell us
your role within The EXFILES project?
Olivier Thomas (01:43):
Yes, sure. So Texplained is a company, basically focused on
integrated circuit reverse engineering. So it's more like exploration and
extraction from ICs . So it's a bit logical in
a way that we arrive in such a project because
like now, the phones are so secured that we want
(02:03):
to also investigate the methodology using like silicon based analyses
to try to extract the encrypted data. So for obvious reason Texplained
is a good match, I think, for the EXFILES project because
we are really focusing not on the complete code, but
on the complete on on some of the chips that
are making the security in cellphone devices.
Peter Balint (02:24):
So it seems to me that the EXFILES consortium has
quite a bit to gain with a partner like Texplained.
But what can Texplained gain from this effort?
Olivier Thomas (02:33):
We can gain a lot. I mean, like the first
thing we saw, like when we were contacted to be
part of the project was a really good opportunity to
speak with the LEA's, you know, because it's a perfect fit. Again,
we are doing like the IC exploration and the data
extraction and they have the need for for it. So basically, it
(02:55):
was a good way of introducing us to, to these people,
to the LEA's. And on top of this, as we
are working together and as we nobody has the same
techniques in the field, which is so specific. So it's
a good way of also like having exchanges and and
basically making the state of the art be better at the end .
(03:17):
So we learned a lot from each other and and
we have a really good relationship in the consortium. So
I think for Texplained , it's a really good opportunity.
Peter Balint (03:27):
OK. And you say, LEA's and I should clarify that
that means law enforcement agencies.
Olivier Thomas (03:32):
Yes, you're right.
Peter Balint (03:34):
And OK, so it sounds like a great opportunity to
share knowledge back and forth, and that's really great for
the project. It's also great for your company. One might
think that your work on EXFILES is in constant flux
because you never know when current technology will change. And
by this, I mean, without warning, the operating system on
(03:56):
a telephone could be patched holes, fixed security updates applied,
and this could drastically change your course of action. How
do you deal with this kind of thing in EXFILES ?
Olivier Thomas (04:08):
Again, EXFILES has the good thing to me, like software focused
but also hardware focused and then like trying to combine
the two approaches. And this is great because when you
speak about like security updates and things like this, for sure,
it's it's something that for all the law enforcement agencies
(04:30):
and for ourselves can be a difficulty. But in a way,
as we focus also on the silicon itself, if you find
the weakness inside the silicon, then it cannot be patched. So
in a way, maybe we will find like ways of extracting,
extracting encrypted information with the hardware approach, you know, and
(04:51):
by doing this basically, it's it's really great because there's
not so much you can do with the software to prevent
the hardware attack to be successful. So this is this is
also a good specificity for the EXFILES project, and I think
it's a good approach.
Peter Balint (05:07):
OK, so you're dealing with hardware in this case, and
it's silicone and that this won't change, this is what
you're saying, right?
Olivier Thomas (05:14):
Yes, exactly.
Peter Balint (05:15):
OK. So EXFILES has a training component, meaning that part
of the effort involves making sure that future generations can
also benefit from the projects, from the things that you
discover in the project. So what does this look like
and what are the hopes here?
Olivier Thomas (05:32):
So it's it's a very large question to me because
so first of all, I like trainings a lot. So
at Texplained we prepare trainings for a lot of people. And basically,
we we we give trainings at conferences and we go
to the customers directly to give training there. But we
have also people coming to Texplained because if you want
(05:52):
to be trained with the lab equipment, you need to
have access to the equipment. So for this reason, we
do a large variety of training. But inside the EXFILES project, it's a bit
the same. It's like because it's specific we need to
to and to basically make it appear easier than it
(06:12):
is in reality, you know, and to be honest, a
lot of people, when it comes to looking at transistors
and pictures of devices, it looks really complicated because you're
not used to it. So I think it's really important
to go and to explain the different techniques and for
the EXFILES as we are looking at a variety of different chips,
(06:34):
some of them are really aggressive in terms of the
technology that they're embedded some of them are less techy,
I would say. So it's a good opportunity again to
develop techniques, document the different techniques that are developed during
the EXFILES project and to share this knowledge. Because at
(06:55):
the end of the day, even if the technology will
continue to evolve, the techniques that will be used are
just derivative of the techniques we are using right now.
So I think I think this is also a very
nice opportunity to develop this training material and the EXFILES projects
(07:15):
has also this combining software and hardware approach. And it
means that in terms of training, I think I think
it's the dream training for any engineer that wants to
understand how security works inside the phone. And even if
it's not like specific to a specific phone, it's going
to be useful for a number of people after the project.
(07:38):
So I think it's I think it's really cool. So
what we will miss maybe is like the practical decision
inside labs. But again, I think like more and more
people are getting used to hearing companies like Texplained speak
about those techniques, so it becomes more something that people
know about. So this is going in a good direction, I
(08:00):
would say, and EXFILES is just the opportunity to use practial cases to show something
which is like very, very specific in terms of the
techniques that we are using.
Peter Balint (08:12):
And it sounds like this is a great way with
this training, this emphasis on training to have a lasting
impact from this project that goes on even after the project ends.
And so that's great.
Olivier Thomas (08:24):
I hope it will be reused. Basically, that's up to
the EXFILES project. LEA's will basically be able to say, OK,
we did this during the EXFILES project. Let's see how it
applies to another phone, for example, and using the techniques
and adapting the techniques get some success in the future.
Yes yes . I'm very optimistic, but to be honest, I
(08:46):
think it is the right way to do it, to
do it.
Peter Balint (08:48):
Yeah, that sounds great. And there will be a great
outcome from EXFILES . So let's talk about challenges for
a moment. What kind of challenges did you see in
EXFILES thus far?
Olivier Thomas (08:59):
So for us, so again, I'm speaking like, I'm not
speaking for Texplained specifically, so to is leading one of
the work packages, which is really focused on the integrated circuits.
And for us, the challenge basically the complexities. So the
evolution of integrated circuits never stops. And the device that
(09:19):
we are looking at, we have like billions of transistors
and the transistors are structures that are in the nanometer range basically.
So and this across like maybe 16 layers on some
of the devices. So basically, the difficulty for us is
the first part of the work is like going to
(09:40):
the lab and preparing everything so we can basically have
a good picture. And when i say picture. It's like it's I'm not joking .
It's actually it's pictures that we are taking from the
chips to understand how they work and to to be able
to reach every of the features inside the integrated circuits
and to be able to make like pictures that are
(10:01):
nice enough that can be exploited. This is the main
challenge is by far the main challenge.
Peter Balint (10:08):
And it sounds or in our previous conversations, I think
you mentioned that we're basically talking on a microscopic level here, right?
Olivier Thomas (10:14):
Oh yes, yes, yes. To give you an example at
Texpkained we have two scanning electron microscopes and we have
also like what's called a Focused Ion Beam , which is basically a microscope,
but where you can modify the circiutry if you want to,
so that we do this when I say circuitry, that could
be a track, which is, I don't know, it is
(10:35):
something like 16 nano meter wide, you know, and you
want to cut it to reroute rerouted somewhere is because
you will gain an advantage in terms of the extracting data so, yes.
We're speaking microscopes a lot yes.
Peter Balint (10:49):
Yeah, this is amazing and you're doing some great work and
thank you for taking a little bit of time today
to explain how this works and how your company fits
into the project and to tell us about the overall
goals of the project. Really appreciate d. Thank you.
Olivier Thomas (11:02):
Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. It was a
pleasure to talk about it.
Outro (11:07):
For more information about EXFILES go to exfiles.eu. This podcast
has been brought to you by Technikon. The EXFILES project
has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 Research
and Innovation Program under grant agreement number 883156.
This is a Technikon podcast.
Peter Balint (00:08):
What makes your mobile telephone work and what makes it
so secure? Well, it's nothing you can see, yes, because
it's inside your phone, but beyond that, the hardware is
actually microscopic. Millions of transistors packed into such a tiny
space is almost beyond comprehension. But as we speak, it's
(00:30):
important for one group of individuals in Europe to understand
how these circuits work, even though they had nothing to
do with a design. I'm Peter Balint from Technikon. This
team of individuals is comprised of federal government, local law
enforcement and intelligence agencies, as well as cybersecurity experts from
(00:50):
across Europe. They are the consortium in the EXFILES project.
Their goal find methods to get into locked phones which
have been seized from criminals. As you have probably guessed,
these phones could contain data that could prevent other crimes. Today,
we speak with Olivier Thomas a partner in EXFILES. He,
(01:12):
along with his team of 10 cybersecurity experts, are responsible
for hardware solutions in EXFILES. He shares his thoughts on
the project with us today. Let's have a listen. So
thank you for coming on today, appreciate it.
Olivier Thomas (01:30):
Thank you. You're welcome.
Peter Balint (01:31):
in the introduction I talked a little bit about EXFILES
and I also mentioned that you come from the company
that's called Texplained. How do you? Can you tell us
your role within The EXFILES project?
Olivier Thomas (01:43):
Yes, sure. So Texplained is a company, basically focused on
integrated circuit reverse engineering. So it's more like exploration and
extraction from ICs . So it's a bit logical in
a way that we arrive in such a project because
like now, the phones are so secured that we want
(02:03):
to also investigate the methodology using like silicon based analyses
to try to extract the encrypted data. So for obvious reason Texplained
is a good match, I think, for the EXFILES project because
we are really focusing not on the complete code, but
on the complete on on some of the chips that
are making the security in cellphone devices.
Peter Balint (02:24):
So it seems to me that the EXFILES consortium has
quite a bit to gain with a partner like Texplained.
But what can Texplained gain from this effort?
Olivier Thomas (02:33):
We can gain a lot. I mean, like the first
thing we saw, like when we were contacted to be
part of the project was a really good opportunity to
speak with the LEA's, you know, because it's a perfect fit. Again,
we are doing like the IC exploration and the data
extraction and they have the need for for it. So basically, it
(02:55):
was a good way of introducing us to, to these people,
to the LEA's. And on top of this, as we
are working together and as we nobody has the same
techniques in the field, which is so specific. So it's
a good way of also like having exchanges and and
basically making the state of the art be better at the end .
(03:17):
So we learned a lot from each other and and
we have a really good relationship in the consortium. So
I think for Texplained , it's a really good opportunity.
Peter Balint (03:27):
OK. And you say, LEA's and I should clarify that
that means law enforcement agencies.
Olivier Thomas (03:32):
Yes, you're right.
Peter Balint (03:34):
And OK, so it sounds like a great opportunity to
share knowledge back and forth, and that's really great for
the project. It's also great for your company. One might
think that your work on EXFILES is in constant flux
because you never know when current technology will change. And
by this, I mean, without warning, the operating system on
(03:56):
a telephone could be patched holes, fixed security updates applied,
and this could drastically change your course of action. How
do you deal with this kind of thing in EXFILES ?
Olivier Thomas (04:08):
Again, EXFILES has the good thing to me, like software focused
but also hardware focused and then like trying to combine
the two approaches. And this is great because when you
speak about like security updates and things like this, for sure,
it's it's something that for all the law enforcement agencies
(04:30):
and for ourselves can be a difficulty. But in a way,
as we focus also on the silicon itself, if you find
the weakness inside the silicon, then it cannot be patched. So
in a way, maybe we will find like ways of extracting,
extracting encrypted information with the hardware approach, you know, and
(04:51):
by doing this basically, it's it's really great because there's
not so much you can do with the software to prevent
the hardware attack to be successful. So this is this is
also a good specificity for the EXFILES project, and I think
it's a good approach.
Peter Balint (05:07):
OK, so you're dealing with hardware in this case, and
it's silicone and that this won't change, this is what
you're saying, right?
Olivier Thomas (05:14):
Yes, exactly.
Peter Balint (05:15):
OK. So EXFILES has a training component, meaning that part
of the effort involves making sure that future generations can
also benefit from the projects, from the things that you
discover in the project. So what does this look like
and what are the hopes here?
Olivier Thomas (05:32):
So it's it's a very large question to me because
so first of all, I like trainings a lot. So
at Texplained we prepare trainings for a lot of people. And basically,
we we we give trainings at conferences and we go
to the customers directly to give training there. But we
have also people coming to Texplained because if you want
(05:52):
to be trained with the lab equipment, you need to
have access to the equipment. So for this reason, we
do a large variety of training. But inside the EXFILES project, it's a bit
the same. It's like because it's specific we need to
to and to basically make it appear easier than it
(06:12):
is in reality, you know, and to be honest, a
lot of people, when it comes to looking at transistors
and pictures of devices, it looks really complicated because you're
not used to it. So I think it's really important
to go and to explain the different techniques and for
the EXFILES as we are looking at a variety of different chips,
(06:34):
some of them are really aggressive in terms of the
technology that they're embedded some of them are less techy,
I would say. So it's a good opportunity again to
develop techniques, document the different techniques that are developed during
the EXFILES project and to share this knowledge. Because at
(06:55):
the end of the day, even if the technology will
continue to evolve, the techniques that will be used are
just derivative of the techniques we are using right now.
So I think I think this is also a very
nice opportunity to develop this training material and the EXFILES projects
(07:15):
has also this combining software and hardware approach. And it
means that in terms of training, I think I think
it's the dream training for any engineer that wants to
understand how security works inside the phone. And even if
it's not like specific to a specific phone, it's going
to be useful for a number of people after the project.
(07:38):
So I think it's I think it's really cool. So
what we will miss maybe is like the practical decision
inside labs. But again, I think like more and more
people are getting used to hearing companies like Texplained speak
about those techniques, so it becomes more something that people
know about. So this is going in a good direction, I
(08:00):
would say, and EXFILES is just the opportunity to use practial cases to show something
which is like very, very specific in terms of the
techniques that we are using.
Peter Balint (08:12):
And it sounds like this is a great way with
this training, this emphasis on training to have a lasting
impact from this project that goes on even after the project ends.
And so that's great.
Olivier Thomas (08:24):
I hope it will be reused. Basically, that's up to
the EXFILES project. LEA's will basically be able to say, OK,
we did this during the EXFILES project. Let's see how it
applies to another phone, for example, and using the techniques
and adapting the techniques get some success in the future.
Yes yes . I'm very optimistic, but to be honest, I
(08:46):
think it is the right way to do it, to
do it.
Peter Balint (08:48):
Yeah, that sounds great. And there will be a great
outcome from EXFILES . So let's talk about challenges for
a moment. What kind of challenges did you see in
EXFILES thus far?
Olivier Thomas (08:59):
So for us, so again, I'm speaking like, I'm not
speaking for Texplained specifically, so to is leading one of
the work packages, which is really focused on the integrated circuits.
And for us, the challenge basically the complexities. So the
evolution of integrated circuits never stops. And the device that
(09:19):
we are looking at, we have like billions of transistors
and the transistors are structures that are in the nanometer range basically.
So and this across like maybe 16 layers on some
of the devices. So basically, the difficulty for us is
the first part of the work is like going to
(09:40):
the lab and preparing everything so we can basically have
a good picture. And when i say picture. It's like it's I'm not joking .
It's actually it's pictures that we are taking from the
chips to understand how they work and to to be able
to reach every of the features inside the integrated circuits
and to be able to make like pictures that are
(10:01):
nice enough that can be exploited. This is the main
challenge is by far the main challenge.
Peter Balint (10:08):
And it sounds or in our previous conversations, I think
you mentioned that we're basically talking on a microscopic level here, right?
Olivier Thomas (10:14):
Oh yes, yes, yes. To give you an example at
Texpkained we have two scanning electron microscopes and we have
also like what's called a Focused Ion Beam , which is basically a microscope,
but where you can modify the circiutry if you want to,
so that we do this when I say circuitry, that could
be a track, which is, I don't know, it is
(10:35):
something like 16 nano meter wide, you know, and you
want to cut it to reroute rerouted somewhere is because
you will gain an advantage in terms of the extracting data so, yes.
We're speaking microscopes a lot yes.
Peter Balint (10:49):
Yeah, this is amazing and you're doing some great work and
thank you for taking a little bit of time today
to explain how this works and how your company fits
into the project and to tell us about the overall
goals of the project. Really appreciate d. Thank you.
Olivier Thomas (11:02):
Thank you. Thank you for the invitation. It was a
pleasure to talk about it.
Outro (11:07):
For more information about EXFILES go to exfiles.eu. This podcast
has been brought to you by Technikon. The EXFILES project
has received funding from the European Union's Horizon 2020 Research
and Innovation Program under grant agreement number 883156.
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