April 7, 2023 • 51 mins
The next in our greatest hits playlist is an episode from Inside: the Digital Health & Sales Locker Room, hosted by Josh Pappas. Josh has a fun sports theme for his segments, and he invited Jared and Zain Ismail to join him on a recent episode to discuss consumer healthcare. They talk about the need for everyone in healthcare to better understand the needs of consumers, as well as their predictions for innovation around those needs.
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Episode Transcript
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Jared (00:04):
Welcome to Health Care Mixtape, where we're curating the ultimate
playlist of health care content that you may have missed
the first time. Here. We share bonus episodes and greatest
hits from some of our favorite shows, as well as
exclusive interviews with industry insiders all focused on health care
changemakers and the disruption of the now. This show is
produced by Shift Forward Health, The Channel for Change Makers.
Subscribe to Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app
(00:26):
and you'll be subscribed to our entire Library of Shows
one subscription all the podcasts you need and it's all
for free. I'm Jared Johnson, your playlist curator, and it's
time to mix it up. All right. The next in
our Greatest Hits playlist is an episode from one of
my favorite new podcasts. It's called Inside the Digital Health
and Sales Locker Room, hosted by Josh Pappas. Josh has
(00:48):
a fun sports theme for his segments, and he invited
me along with Zane Ismail, to join him on a
recent episode to discuss consumer healthcare. It's the first time
that Zane and I have been interviewed together outside of
our time co-hosting the health care app, We talked about
the need for everyone in health care to better understand
the needs of consumers and our predictions for innovation around
those needs. One of my favorite parts was the MJ
versus LeBron debate segment. In our case, we discussed the
(01:11):
age old debate of consumer versus patient. Yeah, like I said,
Josh does a great job relating everything to a sports
theme and keeping the energy going. I encourage you to
subscribe to Inside the Digital Health and sales locker room,
and I hope you get a lot out of this episode.
Check it out. Let the mix begin.
Josh (01:26):
Come to Inside the Digital Health and Sales locker Room.
I'm your host, Josh Pappas, and as a reminder, I
am the director of sales and Lead early health system
partnerships for Tendo. We're really focused on helping create a
more consumer driven patient experience, and that's why I'm very
excited about this episode. Welcoming two of what I would
(01:47):
consider some of the gurus on the topic of consumer
driven health care for Episode five, I welcome Jared Johnson
and Zain Ismail. Jared is a excellent resource, part consultant,
part thought leader, and he hosts the Health Care Wrap
podcast and he founded the Health Content Network. And it's
(02:12):
always given the industry a new perspective to think about,
particularly around consumer driven health care. Zane is the director
of health care consumerism and network experience for Avaya and
where he helps drive business development and client engagement goals
by creating community amongst the network of 57 health systems.
(02:33):
And he also helps co-host the Health Care Wrap podcast
with Jared. These are two very seasoned individuals, and I
look forward to diving into all the different segments and
topic around consumer driven health care. Make sure you go
ahead and follow their podcast, the Health Care Wrap, as
(02:53):
well as shift forward health on wherever you subscribe to
podcast and make sure to like review and subscribe to
the newsletter Inside the Digital Health and Sales Locker room
wherever you get podcast, super excited and enjoy. Welcome to
(03:16):
the podcast, Jared and Zane. Looking forward to having a
special consumer driven health care episode. So excited to have
you guys on the podcast and I guess we'll go individually.
Jared You'll start and maybe then Zane. Brief intro For
those that don't know you and would love to hear
your origin story of why health care and then why
(03:37):
consumer health care, they are wrapped into that intro.
Jared (03:42):
I go first, Jared? Sure. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Josh, for
first and foremost for having us on. This is fun.
I don't think the two of us have ever been
guests on the same show before, so.
Zain (03:51):
No, the script is flipping, the podcasters being what podcast?
It too.
Jared (03:57):
That's right. That's right. I like it. I mean, brief
origin story is I'm a an advocate for consumer driven
health care. So redesigning and rebuilding the parts of the
health care experience that make it easier for consumers. And
so that came about as a result of close to
20 years in health care from both the MedTech side,
(04:21):
medical device side, as well as the provider side, working
numerous roles in digital and marketing leadership positions and seeing
how that all sometimes stands in contrast with the business
systems underneath health care. So I'm passionate about those things.
I have experiences in my own life with loved ones
that I'm like, Man, that's a shame. You know, the
(04:42):
system went a certain way and things happen with them.
So on top of that, I have a podcast channel
called Shift Forward Health, and Zane and I co-hosts Health
Care Wrap, which is the our our flagship show on
that channel.
Zain (05:00):
Absolutely fantastic. Let's see. I got into some origin store
in my on my side. I got into health care
really by way of hospitality. And so when I was
younger and still am very interested in like food and
service and the art and science of making people feel welcome.
I thought I would go work for the Four Seasons,
the Ritz Carlton, but through a series of very fortunate events,
(05:24):
I realized that my affinity for service could probably be
better applied and, frankly, higher compensated. Working in health systems
and some of the work that I do today. And so,
you know, at a at a college ended up working
at a think tank at the business school in London, Ontario, Canada,
where we did a lot of work helping Canadians understand
(05:45):
what high performing health systems look like from their jumped
into rural health care operations and helped small hospital outside
of Windsor, Ontario, reinvent itself. Did a lot of work
in behavioral health there. And then and then eventually came
to the US and got recruited to Henry Ford Health System.
And then eventually where I'm at today with health innovation,
(06:06):
working with now a whole group of hospitals across the
country to help with their consumer transformation. And so again,
sort of that hospitality and service experience combined with health services,
I think made me a pretty good candidate to do
some of the work that I'm doing today. And then,
of course, a couple of years ago, Jared crossed my
path and joined his podcast. So here we are.
Josh (06:30):
That's fantastic. And then I'm sure you've shared, but what
was the genesis.
Of the health care podcast? I mean, in my mind
I have Jared, you know, out there, Eminem style.
In a rap battle, you know, visiting you at Henry Ford,
you know, just rapping about consumer driven health care. But
I'm sure, you know, the actual story is a little
bit different.
Jared (06:51):
That would have been yeah, that would have been better.
Zain (06:55):
We were actually connected through a mutual friend and said, hey,
the two of y'all should know each other. And it
was really at the height of the pandemic that we
connected through Zoom and to this day have never actually
met in person. And so we'll definitely Josh, when we
actually do meet, we have a plan to meet this year.
But yeah, that's how it all started.
Jared (07:14):
Right? And the rap part. So the intro to the
podcast is a rap. It's about breaking down the silos
and focusing on consumers and health care. It used to
be about digital and marketing, and now it's all about
consumer first health, but it originated in 2018. My original
co-host was Peter Balestier. He and I were colleagues at
a hospital building up their digital and marketing capabilities and
(07:37):
having conversations like, Hey, well, it's pretty clear one of
the best ways for us to market this hospital would
be make it easier to schedule an appointment with one
of our providers. Let's go see what how that's going
to work and getting shot down immediately to say, yeah,
we're not going to do that. We're not ready for that.
So just having conversations of like, is it them or
is it us? And we just started doing that once
(07:58):
a week. And long story short, yeah, that was five
years ago. But that's, that's where it started from a
hospital centric perspective, just trying to see like, what can
we learn here? What can we do, how can we
help things progress? And that year, just a few months
before the podcast started, I had been asked to give
a keynote at a conference at Johns Hopkins, and I
(08:24):
get nervous when I do that. I would say that,
but to kind of calm my nerves, I'm like, I'm
just going to come out on stage and introduce myself
by rapping and just changing the words to The Fresh
Prince of Bel-Air. And so I actually came up with
the little thing and they didn't throw me off stage,
so I assume it went okay. But I was like,
I'm actually going to try something like that again. That's
(08:45):
that's the full origin story.
Zain (08:48):
And I do not.
I do not contribute to the raps at all. Just
to be clear at all, that is not the contribution
I make.
Josh (08:56):
That is fantastic. Well, good guys. Well, appreciate you having on.
You know, the origin story of this one.
Is kind of.
That intersection of digital health sales, but.
Super focused in my day to day on consumer driven
health care.
So before we jump in, you know, the six topics
that we have, segments, if you want to call them,
but would love with the Super Bowl coming up, I'm
(09:18):
always interested, you know, what's kind of the.
Most memorable when you think.
About an event like you as.
A consumer, whether that's sports related or not sports related.
Like what's the most memorable event that you can think about.
As a.
Consumer? And then I'd love to share mine. Saying you
want to go first.
Zain (09:36):
Most memorable event. Hold on here. You know what? So
I'm going to. I don't follow a whole lot of sports,
to be honest. So I'm going to talk about an
experience I had at a restaurant not too far from
up here in Detroit. There's this Italian restaurant called Barco
that when you walk in, these people don't know you
from a hole in the wall. Mind you, it's an
expensive Italian restaurant. These people literally make you feel like family.
(10:00):
And so this whole team of waiter, like your head
waiter and then all his henchmen surround your table. The
owner of the restaurant comes out and hugs and kisses
you as if you were in Italy and you leave
the place paying an exorbitant amount of money for pasta.
But you love these people and you you feel like
they love you. And we go back all the time.
And so when I think about one of the best
(10:22):
service experiences, this would have to be it. And I
wish health services would feel that way. They don't know
what's to.
Jared (10:30):
It's really true. It's really true. And one thing I
will tell you, one reason I always like I've enjoyed
having Zane co-host with me is tying things back to
moments like with restaurants and hospitality in other ways, because
that's how most people compare their health care experiences anyway
for me on the sports side. So it's more of
a moment than an event, but it ties back to
(10:55):
my roots growing up in Houston. So who's the team
you're going to root for is the Astros. It's hard
to even admit that on the air these days because
for those who don't know, they won the World Series
in 2017, the first time ever, it was like the
best day of my life when they won. And then
in 2020, they it was discovered that they had had cheated.
They had come up with a way to steal signs.
(11:17):
And with this elaborate scheme being a trash can from
the dugout, it was it was crazy. They got really
good at cheating, basically. And ever since then, I almost
don't tell anybody that that's who I rooted for. But
then this last season, they all I wanted was for
them to like, be competitive after that because they had
a good team. They didn't have to have cheated in
my mind that season to win. So this last season
(11:39):
they ended up winning the World Series again and I
just kind of felt like I was able to exhale
a little bit and say, maybe it's okay to admit
that I like this team. You know, I'd like to
think that maybe that makes me maybe that means I'm
loyal or open minded because it's really hard to root
for the bad guys in the sport. I've never had
to before. But when they won this last season, I
was like, okay, at least they won, hopefully without cheating
(12:03):
this time.
Josh (12:05):
That's awesome. Yeah, I think you. And then I guess
there was I read an article.
Where like.
Mattress Jack there's some like.
Mattress owner.
In Houston that laid a big bed on the astro
So you were happy and then I think he won
like something to the tune of $10 million. So I'm
sure Mattress Jack was was happy. I think for me
it was probably a moment, too. You know, I grew
up outside of Chapel Hill, so college sports were super big.
(12:28):
And although it's I'm like the weird kid that.
Doesn't like Duke or Carolina.
You know, back in the day.
But I had the great experience to go to a
Carolina Duke game at Cameron Indoor.
And so, you know, those are, to me, a perfect
example of super, super famous brands in the college sports arena.
Cameron Indoor is kind of an iconic place for the game,
(12:50):
and I couldn't tell you exactly what happened in that game,
but I could still remember, you know, the a lot
of the the scenery around there. So I was super
fortunate there. So appreciate you guys joining. And now we'll
we'll jump into some segments so we do a top
ten bottom ten. And you know, normally this is people
sharing their sales, people sharing their best and worst kind
(13:12):
of sales experiences. On the other side, health system.
Kind of sharing their, you know, most.
Memorable interactions with sales reps. So you can take it
either way. I know you, Zane, have some experience on
the other side of the table. You know, we could do.
That or feel.
Free to answer it kind of your your best or
worst health care experience as a patient, whichever.
(13:34):
Way you want to go.
But why don't you start saying.
Zain (13:37):
Yeah, I think my top ten sales experience working with
salesmen or women or I don't know what the proper
term is anymore. Vendors in the health care space, you know,
really was through COVID. And so I think I can
start naming names because I actually really appreciate them. But
one of them was Genentech, which is a big pharmaceutical
and really appreciated that their sales team, you know, would
(14:01):
almost reach out every other week and not actually trying
to sell drugs to us. I'm not even the right
person like I'm very far. I was very far from
pharmacy when I was working for Henry Ford Health System.
But what I really appreciate about Genentech and Charlie Skinner,
who leads the account, is they were always checking in
on us genuinely. How are you doing? What can we do?
(14:23):
Can we bridge a connection to some of our diagnostic
services to actually help with COVID response? And then Genentech,
which is owned by Roche, has a massive philanthropic arm.
And so they're always wondering, Hey, is there grants or
people we can connect you to to get some funding
to go on and do community level testing or vaccination work?
(14:45):
And so just really appreciated that they read the room
and they weren't trying to pump their product there, their
products that probably aren't very helpful or needed, but we're
still there to support us through that pandemic. So that
was fantastic. And then during that season two, we get
a lot of phone calls from, you know, random technology
vendors trying to sell us scheduling solutions for vaccination clinics
(15:09):
when frankly, like that ship had sailed months ago. And so, again,
just not really some of these folks just not really
paying attention to where we were at in the broader response.
But again, the Genentech team really, really stands out as
people who genuinely cared about us as their client and
knew when the appropriate time was to push for their business.
(15:30):
And certainly after the pandemic And now I believe we
have a very fruitful relationship with Genentech because it's an
appropriate time to do so. But at the time, we're
really just there to take care of us where they could.
So really appreciated that.
Josh (15:44):
Now, that's really interesting because I think for for all the.
Busy in your day, right, the fact that you remember
the company, the people involved, I think that's a good.
Lesson to all salespeople out there.
Particularly in a time uncertain.
Time that that type of small little thing can have
a serious impact.
What about you, Jared?
Jared (16:03):
I pointed to times that I was pleasantly surprised by
folks who are not anywhere on my radar screen, and
both happened within a few months of each other, ironically,
both within a few months of launching the podcast. So
I was at the time I was still working at
a hospital and when they got a package and it
(16:23):
was from a from a sales rep at a SaaS
company and all he did was he just sent me
a rhyming dictionary. He said, Hey, I saw on LinkedIn
you started this podcast and has a wrap Hope, hope
you find this useful sometime. They were not on my
radar at all. We ended up getting able to bring
them in for a for a visit and things. I
(16:45):
just thought like that was so far out of left field.
I didn't know they knew who I was. It was fantastic.
And then just a few months later, at a conference,
I had finished doing a presentation and somebody, again, not
on my radar screen, but worked at a print shop,
came up to me and handed me, said, Hey, check
out the podcast. I hope you don't mind. We grabbed
(17:08):
your logo off the internet and made a couple of
tumblers and handed them for me and my co-host at
the time for me and Peter, and she's like, Hope
I don't mind. I hope you don't mind, like, so
out of left field. Just and I think the two
lessons that still apply were they were personalized. They're unexpected,
but also like they both involved something tangible, like with
(17:28):
everything being so virtual, it was really cool to have
that excuse to have like something. I still have both
those things and still have the rhyming dictionary and the tumbler,
like sitting, sitting in my room.
Josh (17:40):
That's that's that's fantastic. And then I guess on the
other side, Jared.
You know, when, when now, you know, on the on
that point with, with everything being digital, you know, are there.
Are there are there.
Ways of communication, email or something that just.
Doesn't resonate as much as much for you in your.
Day to day?
Jared (17:58):
So I think.
LinkedIn can be the best. It can also be like
so the worst. It can just be the place where
I feel like people have found that as an excuse
to not do their homework. And it doesn't take much
skimming of my profile to know that I put out
a lot of content. I'd love for people to engage
with my content. You want to know what topics I
(18:20):
write about? It doesn't take much. And so for people
to even reach out and say, Hey, what would you like?
You know, any what topics interest you or whatever, like
it doesn't take much homework as like a couple of
minutes reading my profile. And so if anyone wants to
be in my in my world, in my ecosystem, all
(18:41):
you have to do is engage with a little bit
of my content. So I feel like LinkedIn is just
giving people a reason to bypass that and feel like
they see all the info about me. So that's all
they need, whether whether they're offering something that is useful
to me or not that goes like a million miles
for me.
Josh (19:01):
I love the way you put it the best and
the worst.
Because I completely agree. That could be a whole nother,
you know, podcast topic. So, so, so switching gears here
and you know, we kind of do a segment on
some leaders on the sales side.
Health care side. But this one, you know, the health care.
Consumer dream team.
So you know what are maybe.
Five influential leaders.
(19:22):
For each of you that have either shaped the way
that you think about health care, consumerism, or are kind
of health system leaders that are in your mind leading
the way on this consumer driven health care journey. So
maybe we can start with you, Jared, if you.
Have a couple and then switch over to Zane.
Jared (19:40):
Sure. So the first one that came to mind when
you asked that question was Jane Saracen Khan. Her website
is Health is Health Populi. She's a health economist. And
I feel like the biggest value to every health care
leader right now is opening their vision and understanding how
consumers make health care choices. And that means they're not
(20:01):
just choosing between hospital A, hospital B doctor, a doctor, B,
they're choosing between all the retailers that are out there
now offering bits and pieces. And it's not this just
like continuous contiguous journey that we're on. And you're going
from this area of the same health system to this
other area. It's whatever you need at the time that
you need it. So Jane has written several books about it,
(20:26):
but she's just one of those. She's a trend. Weaver
She's at the forefront. And she will she will tell
you what to do there. So I feel like everyone
needs her perspective. And then another one I'd put out
there is an Somers hog. She's a senior research fellow
at Clayton Christensen Institute, spent a lot of years at
at Atrium Health and their innovation team and is a
(20:48):
champion of of Clayton Christensen's theories of disruptive innovation, as
well as human centered design and design thinking and using
that to really focus on what the drivers of health are.
So I'll I'll stop there.
Zain (21:05):
A couple that come to mind come to mind on
my end. The first would be a gentleman by the
name of Gerard Van Greenspan, who go figure, used to
be the vice president of Food and Beverage for the Ritz-Carlton,
and he became the CEO of the Cancer Treatment Centers
of America. And now today, I'm not exactly sure what
his titles are. I believe he's operating as a consultant
at large, but he's been leading a group of folks
(21:28):
who are very much interested in hospitality, real estate, sort
of the futures of senior living and health care and
trying to you know, I think it looks like build
some new residential concepts with a health care component, but very,
very focused on that hospitality level experience. And so I
(21:49):
like to follow a lot of his content on LinkedIn
and the folks he surrounds himself with just to continue
to stay sort of grounded in, I guess, my own
upbringing and hospitality. The other person that I spend a
lot of time listening to is a gentleman by the
name of Scott Galloway, who's not actually a health care expert.
He's more on the marketing side. So I listen to
his podcast and read his books. And what I love
(22:10):
about him, Josh, is he spends a lot of time
sort of analyzing the big companies like the Netflix, the
Googles of the world, the Amazons of the world, talking
about their platform strategy, all things that are very relevant
in health care now. And of course, he makes some
predictions around health care and rightfully predicted that groups like
(22:30):
or forecasted that groups like Amazon and so on will
get into the space. And so I listen to him
as someone who's an outsider to our industry in a sense,
but can still speak to first principles and make some.
I feel like he can see through the fog because
he's not caught up in the minutia of our own
buzzwords and ridiculousness that happens. And then there's three others
(22:51):
who I follow, and one of the contributions I try
to make to our health care podcast is being the
Canadian on the team and having worked in health systems
in Canada. But there is unbelievable digital health talent in Montreal,
and I feel like a lot of Americans and your
listeners need to know that. And so my good friend
Dina Cappuccino and Kathy Miller and Luke Siwa, who all
(23:15):
essentially work either at the Ministry of Health level in
Quebec or work for the University of Montreal or Jewish
General Hospital. These three, in a lot of ways are
making huge moves in the digital health ecosystem in that region,
working inter inter-institutional teaching, human centered design. And Canada is
(23:36):
very far behind, as are relative to the United States.
And so I just very much applaud what they're doing.
And and in Canada, when you start to do some
of the things we talk about here in the US,
you don't just work with one hospital, you have to
work with a whole slew of them and then also
work at the policy level. And so I just really
appreciate sort of that zoomed out view that they have
(23:58):
to take and some. The moves that we're making. But
I think we can learn a lot about here in
the US. And so definitely keep Montreal on your radar
for cool, cool stuff happening.
Josh (24:11):
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, Jared, any any other ones that come
to mind? It's okay if you don't.
Jared (24:19):
I think that covers that. That's a great cross-section. We
have a whole community called a Consumer first health group
that I feel like I need to mention everyone in
there and there's over 100 people in there. So like,
I feel. Yeah, no, not perfect.
Josh (24:32):
Yeah.
Zain (24:34):
We should post the last question.
I was just going to say.
Josh (24:36):
We'll make sure and find the link so that, you know,
because it would be.
Endless. And I would I would definitely include you two
on there for sure.
All right. Well, perfect. So, you know, we.
Do a sports.
Themed.
MJ versus LeBron debate.
So we kind of debate different topics around build versus buy.
And it it's kind of your classic debate that happens.
Or, you know, around.
Sports and playgrounds.
You know, over there.
(24:57):
And so for, for.
You guys, I was interested.
And this is a very kind of loaded.
Topic, but consumer versus patient. Right. And I think.
What's interesting about that one is how it's evolved from
when you.
Guys first started this journey. And then where do you
see it.
Kind of kind of evolving in the eyes of a
lot of the health care system and people.
(25:17):
So take it wherever you want.
To go, but that's kind of the consumer.
Versus patient.
Jared (25:22):
You want to get started as a.
Zain (25:25):
Yeah, I think, you know, in where it started. I
remember going to a meeting when I was still working
in Canada and I was very young. That was still
young but younger then. And I made the mistake of
referring to patients as health consumers. And literally a physician
yelled at me and said, What the heck? Why are
you speaking this way? And so I'm excited to see that,
(25:47):
at least with the stakeholders I work with now, you know,
this whole lingo about patients more broadly being health consumers
is finally catching on. And I think people are getting
are getting, you know, getting the notion of understanding what
we mean by that. We're not trying to discredit physicians
or discredit sort of the clinical identity and needs of patients.
(26:07):
And I think what's driving that, which makes me really happy,
is a lot of these disruptors who are jumping into
this space Amazon, Google, CVS, you name it, who truly
come at this with more of a consumer, consumer or
typical customer perspective are finally starting to make legacy health
system leaders realize it and they need to get on
(26:30):
this game as well and start thinking like a normal,
for profit publicly traded company would think about servicing their
customer base. And so that's exciting and I do think
it's going to continue. So we'll see where that goes.
But curious what you think.
Jared (26:44):
Jared Yeah, well, it's a very real debate. I mean,
I'm glad you asked us this because it's preventing us
from making more progress. We're getting stuck in these definitions
and it's limiting our ability to have a real conversation
about points that are going to get us to a
better place quicker. And what I mean by that is,
is I hear this all the time. There are providers who,
(27:06):
rightfully so, both terms have come from good places. I
feel like the term consumer and the term patient, the
term patient connotes the dignity of the care that's happening
from a clinician in a care setting. There is a
dignity to that. There's a lot of training, there's a
lot of science behind it. There is no disrespect to
that in using the word consumer. And yet that's what
(27:29):
happens a lot. The common concern is how dare you
refer to them as a consumer? Like to Zane's point,
you know how, you know, providers most commonly are the
ones who are saying, How dare you refer to them
that way? Like they're my patient, I care for them,
I'm treating them. And the goal in my mind of
using the word consumer is to not take away from
that at all. It's actually to build upon that and
(27:49):
actually help us do that part even better. But the
word consumer in my mind is the one I focus
on to use because people in a health in a
health system or a hospital setting. To. We they need
to focus on the time that somebody is actively being
seen by a clinician. So that's the time that you're
(28:10):
a patient for most people. And I always want to
have that caveat, too. There are there are many there
are millions of patients who are chronically ill and are
truly continually patients and encountering the health care system on
a daily basis. So not taking away from that at all.
There's this definition of this understanding that just needs to happen.
Of all the health care choices that happen when you
(28:33):
are not being actively seen by a health care professional,
and those are the parts that the business systems underlying
the health care system right now were not equipped to
deal with. They weren't set up to make things easy.
They weren't set to set up to make things at
a reasonable cost. That's why we have to have insurance
and health plans in there taking on risk because the
(28:57):
business systems underlying it weren't set up for that. They
weren't set up. It was just like, Hey, you're in
the system. We're going to tell you who the doctor is.
We're going to tell you what you need to have
done and you're going to pay that bill. And that's
all it was. So now, as other options have emerged,
the other place people get stuck in that debate is thinking, well,
(29:17):
I don't want to call them consumer because they're not
usually the person who pays for the consumer is really
the person who pays for it. So it's the health
plan or it's the government. And that also limits our
ability to have a true discussion here because, yes, those
parts are important, but those parts are covered in other
discussions that the conversation that's the most useful for us,
(29:39):
for consumers of health care right now, which is all
of us, is to recognize. That the system is not
very easy and the business systems that underlying it that
are underlying it are making it that way. So what
can we do to make it easier? What steps can
we take? How can we partner together? Can digital health?
(29:59):
Can virtual primary care startups and health systems all coexist
for the love? Like let's let's do that. So that's
kind of where where it gets into the weeds and
let's not get lost in in one or the other.
We are all consumers all the time where patients some
of the time.
Zain (30:18):
That's actually a really good way to put it.
Josh (30:21):
I was going to say. Well said. And that's a
perfect segue for. What are those predictions?
I know that you guys.
Look a lot at different companies or different trends. So
interested in kind of each of you top three either
health care predictions for what, the next.
Five years or 1 or 2 years are going to
look like or companies that might be involved.
(30:43):
In helping change that. So why don't we start with you, Zain?
Zain (30:47):
Oh.
Let me look into my crystal ball. I think and
I think I said this on our prediction episode, which
I will have the habit of being right, sort of.
It does one thing. Jared can speak for us. One
thing and I'll say it here, we've already said it is.
You know, I think the future of consumer driven health
care is really just going to be more community focused
(31:10):
and aligned health care. And so if you zoom out
and realize where we are in this country around budgets
and where the government is broke, again, we just hit
our debt ceiling, all that, you know, putting all that together,
I really do think that potentially legacy health systems have
gone too far. When we think about these massive now
(31:32):
conglomerates of health systems, mergers. We know what they're trying
to do is get scale and decrease their costs. But
what has happened, at least the public feels like what
has happened is it's come at, you know, at at
the cost of those health systems being more rooted and
connected in their community, similar to what you would see
in Canada. And not to mention many of these health
(31:55):
systems have preferential status with the government that don't pay taxes.
And in effect, the rest of us are subsidizing them.
And then when you pile on the helicopter, you know,
helicopter cash dumps they've received through COVID, which, you know,
certainly they needed, I think that whole value equation is
finally becoming before the eyes of Joe Public and realizing
(32:18):
that this isn't working. And so I do think, you know,
maybe not tomorrow or in two years, but at some point,
I think health system leaders are really going to be
held to account for where is this money going and
what are you doing with it? And then what types
of services are actually delivering this community such that you
feel like you shouldn't be paying taxes? And so I
(32:39):
think that whole you know, that that whole system is
going to be looked at. And I wouldn't be surprised
if some communities, you know, will start to advocate for
some of these big hospital systems to be dismantled and
will sacrifice scale and maybe maybe a few points of
efficiency to just have these things actually serve the geographic
(33:02):
community as opposed to just big, broad insurance populations. So
that's one thing that I'm looking for. And there's already
been some signals in the marketplace. You see, I think
it was Forbes and some of the big articles that
have gone out, you know, highly criticizing executive pay. A
few reports have gone out showing, you know, the gap
in in community benefit reporting versus what the hospital didn't
(33:26):
pay in taxes. And so I think that's something we
don't often talk about in the digital health space because
it's not exactly related to general health, But I think
it's going to be a big trend in the background
that we need to be watching. And so any any
tools and services that can help health systems demonstrate that
they're here for this community and actually helping people beyond
just delivering clinical care, I think it will be very
(33:47):
relevant to boards and executives to show that they're in
that game. And so that would be one random prediction
that I would put out into the universe.
Jared (33:59):
Nice, nice. I guess we can just riff back and forth, right?
Saying I think the the investments from retail companies will
continue to go up. Those aren't going away anytime soon.
So you look at the escalation too. So Amazon bought
one medical for $4 billion. CVS signify health for 8 billion.
(34:25):
Village MD bought Summit Health for 9 billion and now
CVS bought Oak Street. Or is buying Oak Street or
is planning to?
Zain (34:33):
Is that for sure?
Jared (34:35):
At least they made the bid apparently for for Oak
Street for 10 billion. So those aren't going away and
those aren't just, hey, we have a slight interest in
these things. No, CVS wants to have an entire primary
care infrastructure that can scale nationwide. That's why they're doing this.
Signify health. Also, at the same time, at home care,
(34:58):
that could be an actual continuum of care that all
happens outside the hospital. And do they need to get.
Into.
Acute care? No, they really don't. I don't think that's
part of their value chain. So retail investments are going
to keep going up. What does that mean at some point?
That affects the growth engine for health systems that have
put all those chips in the middle of the table
(35:22):
of primary care? That's what gets you in to see
their specialists who are on their plan. So that's just
going to have an effect there. And then the second
one for me is what that leads to is and
there are health systems, health systems. We're generalizing a lot.
We're painting with a really broad brush. There are some
(35:42):
really innovative health systems out there right now that are
doing amazing things, that are putting together a more digital, cohesive,
connected patient experience. And though it's truly going to become
a competitive advantage to be able to say, look, we
removed some friction from the way that you encounter a
doctor here. We made it easier for you to pay
your bill, to understand your.
(36:03):
Bill, to contact.
Us. We're not going to charge you.
To message us in MyChart.
Or whatever. The thing is, we're compensating that or whatever
it is, but experience is going to become a competitive advantage.
Those have been buzzwords for a little while, but you're
going to see innovators and early adopters at least truly
invest in that and make a difference. I guess we go.
(36:27):
Are we. Are we going. Are we going? Three apiece or.
That's a guess. That's quite a few already.
Josh (36:33):
I don't know saying you got you got any more?
Because I appreciate those, Jared. And I think that what
you hit was was.
Was was spot.
On.
Zain (36:41):
I don't know if I have anything more to add
beyond just opining on Jared's comment around experience becoming a
competitive advantage. That's certainly what's happening now. And then probably
a few years down the road, I would describe it
as like relationship will be the competitive advantage. And so
how do you how do a health system similar like
an Amazon prime relationship, you know, keep people constantly engaged
(37:03):
in their services or what other services might they need
to procure so that there's a daily reason why I
would engage with a health care provider? I think I
think that's going to be an opportunity, a great example.
I think it hit the news not too long ago, but,
you know, a health system like multi care and there
they created a product called Indigo, which is an urgent
(37:23):
care similar to almost like a one medical ish. And
they've partnered with 98.6 to do some of that technology work.
So again, great example of like health systems leading the pack,
working with disruptors to really make those highly personalized and
convenient experiences like Jared describes.
Josh (37:46):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more because, I mean, I think
I've been in the fortunate on the other side of
the seat but have worked, you know, and at biopharma
and now with Tendo, with some really innovative.
System leaders, service line leaders, executive leadership and they're certainly there.
And all of what you just described to me and
my sales mind is how are we going to quantify,
(38:09):
how are we going to quantify ROI? Right. And it
is rapidly changing. And I think both on the other.
Side organizations internally but also to vendors are really going
to have to be dynamic.
And like.
Truly tracking, you know, some of those both in real time.
I think it used to be a legacy.
Spreadsheet and you could go and it could go on.
You know, budget or.
Cap table or things like that. But now it is
(38:30):
truly going to be working, you know, not only with
your own internal system.
But other vendors.
To.
To.
Track almost.
In real time, whatever those ROI metrics are going to
be for.
For for some of.
What you guys are talking about. So super interesting. All right. Well,
a couple more. One of the key purposes that I
started the podcast was to help. I had a.
(38:51):
Unique entry point into this whole digital health.
World. Never would have thought that I would be sitting
here and and even in the digital health world. So
this is kind of our rookie health care.
Leader advice, right? So the purpose of this is.
You know, maybe, you know, Zane, you had a unique
entry into health care. But when you're looking at.
What this future health care is going to look.
Like, you know, what.
(39:12):
Is some advice you have to people that are either in.
School now or looking to kind of be in your
shoes and be.
A health care leader or.
Be a part.
Of some of.
This change.
Zain (39:22):
Sure. Well, a couple of things. I would recommend everyone
start very small. You know, I still think and credit
my career to starting in a very, very small hospital
in rural Canada. It was 58 funded beds on a
good day like dollhouse size hospital. And in that in
that hospital, I was able to learn so much because
(39:44):
when you have a small administrative and leadership team, everyone
has to do three jobs. You know, when I came
to Henry Ford Health System and walked around the corporate office,
I realized there were entire divisions of corporate people that
were doing the responsibilities that I had under one role.
And so I think, you know, don't get caught up
in trying to go to Cleveland Clinic or Mayo Clinic
(40:05):
in the case that you want to be in hospital
leadership and all these big brands and get lost in
the mix, start small. You know, if you can find
a critical access hospital or a tiny community hospital, get
in there because you'll learn all of it. And the
good news is, you know, whether it's a massive hospital
or a tiny one, they're all the same, but it's
only within a tiny one that you can really figure
(40:26):
out what all the pieces are so that you know
what you're talking about when you go to a bigger
place and understand bed flow or staffing implications or what
is it that diagnostic imaging actually does. And so I
think starting small and not getting caught up, you know,
in these big health care brands is probably a good idea.
(40:47):
The other thing I'd say, too, is especially and I
see this, I don't know if it's just a Gen
Z issue, but I see a lot of young leaders
like very focused and adamant about getting face time and
networking with people with very senior and fancy titles, which
makes sense. But don't you know, don't discount the wisdom
(41:07):
that comes from people that are just middle management or
your peers. And like when I think about the things
that I really learned, it came from those folks. And frankly,
it came from like nurses. And in Canada, we call
them unit clerks. So administrators, you know a little bit
about health care, who actually helping to orchestrate every department
(41:27):
of the hospital. So I learned so much from those folks, too.
And so, again, I guess don't get so caught up
on pedigree and flash. You know, you can learn a
lot from the small, the unbranded and the people who
may or may not necessarily be super high on the
org chart. So that would be my advice if you're
just starting out nice.
Jared (41:49):
I like that. I like that. I would just add,
especially for someone who's coming up through the sales ranks
or marketing ranks to focus on making your brand relevant.
Don't assume that because you put something out there organically
on social or in an email or you know, you
have to learn the basics, basic rules of engagement for
each of those platforms and how you're engaging with people.
(42:11):
But don't assume that because you put it out there
that it's making your brand relevant. If you focus on that,
you double down on that, then you're opening doors without
even realizing it and you're reducing the sales cycle. You're
getting rid of a lot of the skills and skills,
you know, the qualified leads that lead to nowhere that
you don't end up winning. You can bypass a lot
(42:33):
of that by putting some value out there into the world.
That's where content marketing can really accelerate a sales cycle
because if you put good content out there, you're impacting
and influencing those who are. Influencing your buyer at one
point or another. So I would definitely like double down
on that. I wish I'd learned that earlier and I
wish I still there's still places I want to get
(42:54):
to in a better place with that. And then from
a personal development standpoint, kind of like what Zayn was saying,
I'd also say like, get informed. About adjacent areas to
the place where you are. So if you're at a
health system, awesome, learn everything about it, but then learn
what what retail brands are doing, what's best by.
Doing.
(43:15):
What's Dollar General at least claiming to want to do.
You know, some of them are doing more than others.
But what's what's MedTech doing? What's that health plan doing?
Do you understand those learn those adjacent areas because they
all connect and also especially like follow the money, learn,
learn the economic engine for each of those types of
(43:37):
businesses and you'll arm yourself with more information than than
you'll then 99% of everyone else around you. And that'll
show through.
Zain (43:46):
Yeah, I think to Jared's point, just would like to
remind people like that the business of health care has
not really changed. So sure, there's all these new brands
that are getting evolve and, you know, these disruptors jumping in,
but they're still operating within the same economic framework to
an extent that legacy health care providers are right if
they're trying to sell the Medicare Advantage patients, it's the
(44:08):
same payment as, as, you know, a traditional health system
that's selling the same market. And so learning those fundamentals
can then help you see through the press releases and say, okay,
what what is this company really doing? What might be
their struggles And the good chance there are going to
be similar struggles at Health Systems Phase two. And so
(44:28):
I think again, going back to like starting small, where
you can actually learn health care fundamentals and then you
can scale it up and go work for someone fun
or someone that's in the news all the time.
Josh (44:41):
No, I love I love the blend of both y'all's
experience because, you know, I, I to very.
Similar was I always point to the most fortunate part
of my medical sales career was you know not this
or that it was sitting in a rural North Carolina
primary care office or being fortunate.
Enough to to to to help with a patient. And
(45:03):
in rural.
Georgia. Right. Which I was calling Houston.
Instead of Houston, Georgia. Right. Like these are fortunate. You know,
these are fortunate experiences that I had. But but I
saw people kind of trying to come from outside.
Of health care and on a technology side and sell into.
Health care. And it wasn't just sales reps.
I mean, these were leadership. And people, you know, try
(45:23):
to say, hey, we should do this. And then in
my mind, I always.
Closed my eyes and thought about, you know, that doctor's
office and say, well, we can't do this, you know,
and we must do this.
But here's why, right?
So I was super fortunate about that. But I'm also.
A big believer.
In evolving. So, you know, although I can remember a time.
Where I literally.
Cold called and set up lunch and went and brought
(45:44):
Panera catered lunch and like, that was a cold call.
I'm not one to say, you know, you got to
earn your stripes and do that type of cold call.
You know, I love leveraging technology. I love what you said, Jared,
You know, building the.
Brand, getting the right.
People. And, you know, there aren't going to be people
that have the experience to just show up in doctor's
office and say, Hey, can I observe what you do?
(46:04):
But I think in absence of that, you really do
have to if you want to walk a mile in.
Their shoes.
Truly get in and then get in grade with some
of those people. So I love I love that advice.
All right. Well, wrapping up the last segment, you know,
normally it's just, you know, quick sales plug or plug.
So we'll.
You know, about a minute each. You know, what what
(46:25):
do you have.
Going on and where can people kind of find you
or support you.
Whatever you're doing?
Why don't you.
Start? Jared Oh.
Jared (46:33):
Thanks for asking.
Josh I would say.
Check out this podcast channel. We're trying. It's called Shift
Forward Health. So health care wrap is the main show
on there. It's a weekly show there. But shift forward
Health was meant to be one channel. It's kind of
like HBO, Max kind of. And that you subscribe to
one thing and you get a whole bunch of shows.
So what we were trying to do is eliminate the
(46:54):
the way that you have to go and find each
show individually and subscribe to it individually. You subscribe to
this one channel. On any podcasting platform and you get
3 to 4 shows each week from different hosts. So
you're getting this this much broader view of the industry.
You're hearing from Zane and me, but you're also hearing
from from our hosts who are based internationally and those
(47:18):
who come from different sides of the industry and represent
a much bigger amount of the industry than Zane and
I could on our own. So that's that's the plan.
There's eight shows on the right now. We're adding a
couple more here in the next few weeks. I mean,
it's just it's it's been a lot of fun to
build that. It's been out there for about a year now.
(47:39):
And it's just the goal is that's the channel for
change makers. If you're interested in helping change that status
quo of the health care system, then it's a place
ideally to have a lot of types of different content there.
So I definitely say and it's all for free. I mean,
that's the whole point. So I definitely invite people to
do that.
Yeah, thanks for asking.
Josh (48:00):
Fantastic. Yeah, fantastic.
And I can attest to it. If you're interested in
consumer driven health care.
Or just health care and digital health on the pulse.
And then I'll translate for Jared.
Basically what he's saying is, is that.
You know, health care wrap is the Game of Thrones there. Right.
You know, health care. No, it's it's it's really awesome
(48:22):
resource and it's been super helpful to me. So appreciate
you sharing. Jared What about you, Zane? Anything going on?
Zain (48:29):
I think that thing that I would plug so my
day job, you know, work with health innovation. I lead
our help, lead our consumers and team. And so if
there's any solution companies out there trying to sell into
health systems or health systems themselves who are looking for
support around their digital health strategy, that's something that we
do day in and day out and work with our
(48:49):
hospital system members to help them understand the landscape of
technology out there. And so definitely reach out. I'm happy
to have a conversation and seeing how the community and
network can best serve you all.
Josh (49:03):
Fantastic.
And I wrote it down while you were talking saying
this is a bonus question. Any Ritz-Carlton.
In the in the.
World, where would you go?
And which which Ritz.
Carlton would you would you want to visit?
Zain (49:18):
Um, I would probably go to the one. So I've
never actually been to one. It's on my goals list
to go to. I mean, it's just very expensive, but
I would probably go to one in the mountains, so
I know there's one I think in Vail. I like mountains.
I like skiing. So I'd probably if I was going
to spend the money, I'd spend it there and ski.
And then the Four Seasons is also very interesting to me.
(49:39):
It's a Canadian company, by the way, and maybe in
a separate show I could talk about the story of
how I got invited through an intern that I met
at Henry Ford Hospital to come and tour their corporate
headquarters in Toronto. But that's a separate story. But on
the fourth season side, I probably can go and visit
like one of their flagship properties in Toronto, which actually
isn't too far from here. And so those would be
(50:00):
my two choices.
Fantastic.
Josh (50:04):
Fantastic. Well, guys, I appreciate the the support and jumping
on the podcast. And you know, Zane, Zane went ahead
and threw a cliffhanger. So we'll have to get.
Together and.
Do this do do this, do this some other time.
But thanks, Jared. Thanks, Zane. And looking.
Forward to.
Help educating and following you guys on the consumer health journey.
Zain (50:25):
Thanks so much. Thanks for having us.
Jared (50:29):
Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you heard,
please spread the word. Tell your colleagues to tune in
for all the awesomeness, then leave a review on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you listen. This show is produced by
Shift Forward Health The Channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to
Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app and you'll
be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our
full lineup at Shift Forward Health one subscription all the
(50:51):
podcasts you need and it's all for free. And remember,
we might have a lot of work to do in
health care, but we'll get there faster together. Thanks again.
Welcome to Health Care Mixtape, where we're curating the ultimate
playlist of health care content that you may have missed
the first time. Here. We share bonus episodes and greatest
hits from some of our favorite shows, as well as
exclusive interviews with industry insiders all focused on health care
changemakers and the disruption of the now. This show is
produced by Shift Forward Health, The Channel for Change Makers.
Subscribe to Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app
(00:26):
and you'll be subscribed to our entire Library of Shows
one subscription all the podcasts you need and it's all
for free. I'm Jared Johnson, your playlist curator, and it's
time to mix it up. All right. The next in
our Greatest Hits playlist is an episode from one of
my favorite new podcasts. It's called Inside the Digital Health
and Sales Locker Room, hosted by Josh Pappas. Josh has
(00:48):
a fun sports theme for his segments, and he invited
me along with Zane Ismail, to join him on a
recent episode to discuss consumer healthcare. It's the first time
that Zane and I have been interviewed together outside of
our time co-hosting the health care app, We talked about
the need for everyone in health care to better understand
the needs of consumers and our predictions for innovation around
those needs. One of my favorite parts was the MJ
versus LeBron debate segment. In our case, we discussed the
(01:11):
age old debate of consumer versus patient. Yeah, like I said,
Josh does a great job relating everything to a sports
theme and keeping the energy going. I encourage you to
subscribe to Inside the Digital Health and sales locker room,
and I hope you get a lot out of this episode.
Check it out. Let the mix begin.
Josh (01:26):
Come to Inside the Digital Health and Sales locker Room.
I'm your host, Josh Pappas, and as a reminder, I
am the director of sales and Lead early health system
partnerships for Tendo. We're really focused on helping create a
more consumer driven patient experience, and that's why I'm very
excited about this episode. Welcoming two of what I would
(01:47):
consider some of the gurus on the topic of consumer
driven health care for Episode five, I welcome Jared Johnson
and Zain Ismail. Jared is a excellent resource, part consultant,
part thought leader, and he hosts the Health Care Wrap
podcast and he founded the Health Content Network. And it's
(02:12):
always given the industry a new perspective to think about,
particularly around consumer driven health care. Zane is the director
of health care consumerism and network experience for Avaya and
where he helps drive business development and client engagement goals
by creating community amongst the network of 57 health systems.
(02:33):
And he also helps co-host the Health Care Wrap podcast
with Jared. These are two very seasoned individuals, and I
look forward to diving into all the different segments and
topic around consumer driven health care. Make sure you go
ahead and follow their podcast, the Health Care Wrap, as
(02:53):
well as shift forward health on wherever you subscribe to
podcast and make sure to like review and subscribe to
the newsletter Inside the Digital Health and Sales Locker room
wherever you get podcast, super excited and enjoy. Welcome to
(03:16):
the podcast, Jared and Zane. Looking forward to having a
special consumer driven health care episode. So excited to have
you guys on the podcast and I guess we'll go individually.
Jared You'll start and maybe then Zane. Brief intro For
those that don't know you and would love to hear
your origin story of why health care and then why
(03:37):
consumer health care, they are wrapped into that intro.
Jared (03:42):
I go first, Jared? Sure. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks, Josh, for
first and foremost for having us on. This is fun.
I don't think the two of us have ever been
guests on the same show before, so.
Zain (03:51):
No, the script is flipping, the podcasters being what podcast?
It too.
Jared (03:57):
That's right. That's right. I like it. I mean, brief
origin story is I'm a an advocate for consumer driven
health care. So redesigning and rebuilding the parts of the
health care experience that make it easier for consumers. And
so that came about as a result of close to
20 years in health care from both the MedTech side,
(04:21):
medical device side, as well as the provider side, working
numerous roles in digital and marketing leadership positions and seeing
how that all sometimes stands in contrast with the business
systems underneath health care. So I'm passionate about those things.
I have experiences in my own life with loved ones
that I'm like, Man, that's a shame. You know, the
(04:42):
system went a certain way and things happen with them.
So on top of that, I have a podcast channel
called Shift Forward Health, and Zane and I co-hosts Health
Care Wrap, which is the our our flagship show on
that channel.
Zain (05:00):
Absolutely fantastic. Let's see. I got into some origin store
in my on my side. I got into health care
really by way of hospitality. And so when I was
younger and still am very interested in like food and
service and the art and science of making people feel welcome.
I thought I would go work for the Four Seasons,
the Ritz Carlton, but through a series of very fortunate events,
(05:24):
I realized that my affinity for service could probably be
better applied and, frankly, higher compensated. Working in health systems
and some of the work that I do today. And so,
you know, at a at a college ended up working
at a think tank at the business school in London, Ontario, Canada,
where we did a lot of work helping Canadians understand
(05:45):
what high performing health systems look like from their jumped
into rural health care operations and helped small hospital outside
of Windsor, Ontario, reinvent itself. Did a lot of work
in behavioral health there. And then and then eventually came
to the US and got recruited to Henry Ford Health System.
And then eventually where I'm at today with health innovation,
(06:06):
working with now a whole group of hospitals across the
country to help with their consumer transformation. And so again,
sort of that hospitality and service experience combined with health services,
I think made me a pretty good candidate to do
some of the work that I'm doing today. And then,
of course, a couple of years ago, Jared crossed my
path and joined his podcast. So here we are.
Josh (06:30):
That's fantastic. And then I'm sure you've shared, but what
was the genesis.
Of the health care podcast? I mean, in my mind
I have Jared, you know, out there, Eminem style.
In a rap battle, you know, visiting you at Henry Ford,
you know, just rapping about consumer driven health care. But
I'm sure, you know, the actual story is a little
bit different.
Jared (06:51):
That would have been yeah, that would have been better.
Zain (06:55):
We were actually connected through a mutual friend and said, hey,
the two of y'all should know each other. And it
was really at the height of the pandemic that we
connected through Zoom and to this day have never actually
met in person. And so we'll definitely Josh, when we
actually do meet, we have a plan to meet this year.
But yeah, that's how it all started.
Jared (07:14):
Right? And the rap part. So the intro to the
podcast is a rap. It's about breaking down the silos
and focusing on consumers and health care. It used to
be about digital and marketing, and now it's all about
consumer first health, but it originated in 2018. My original
co-host was Peter Balestier. He and I were colleagues at
a hospital building up their digital and marketing capabilities and
(07:37):
having conversations like, Hey, well, it's pretty clear one of
the best ways for us to market this hospital would
be make it easier to schedule an appointment with one
of our providers. Let's go see what how that's going
to work and getting shot down immediately to say, yeah,
we're not going to do that. We're not ready for that.
So just having conversations of like, is it them or
is it us? And we just started doing that once
(07:58):
a week. And long story short, yeah, that was five
years ago. But that's, that's where it started from a
hospital centric perspective, just trying to see like, what can
we learn here? What can we do, how can we
help things progress? And that year, just a few months
before the podcast started, I had been asked to give
a keynote at a conference at Johns Hopkins, and I
(08:24):
get nervous when I do that. I would say that,
but to kind of calm my nerves, I'm like, I'm
just going to come out on stage and introduce myself
by rapping and just changing the words to The Fresh
Prince of Bel-Air. And so I actually came up with
the little thing and they didn't throw me off stage,
so I assume it went okay. But I was like,
I'm actually going to try something like that again. That's
(08:45):
that's the full origin story.
Zain (08:48):
And I do not.
I do not contribute to the raps at all. Just
to be clear at all, that is not the contribution
I make.
Josh (08:56):
That is fantastic. Well, good guys. Well, appreciate you having on.
You know, the origin story of this one.
Is kind of.
That intersection of digital health sales, but.
Super focused in my day to day on consumer driven
health care.
So before we jump in, you know, the six topics
that we have, segments, if you want to call them,
but would love with the Super Bowl coming up, I'm
(09:18):
always interested, you know, what's kind of the.
Most memorable when you think.
About an event like you as.
A consumer, whether that's sports related or not sports related.
Like what's the most memorable event that you can think about.
As a.
Consumer? And then I'd love to share mine. Saying you
want to go first.
Zain (09:36):
Most memorable event. Hold on here. You know what? So
I'm going to. I don't follow a whole lot of sports,
to be honest. So I'm going to talk about an
experience I had at a restaurant not too far from
up here in Detroit. There's this Italian restaurant called Barco
that when you walk in, these people don't know you
from a hole in the wall. Mind you, it's an
expensive Italian restaurant. These people literally make you feel like family.
(10:00):
And so this whole team of waiter, like your head
waiter and then all his henchmen surround your table. The
owner of the restaurant comes out and hugs and kisses
you as if you were in Italy and you leave
the place paying an exorbitant amount of money for pasta.
But you love these people and you you feel like
they love you. And we go back all the time.
And so when I think about one of the best
(10:22):
service experiences, this would have to be it. And I
wish health services would feel that way. They don't know
what's to.
Jared (10:30):
It's really true. It's really true. And one thing I
will tell you, one reason I always like I've enjoyed
having Zane co-host with me is tying things back to
moments like with restaurants and hospitality in other ways, because
that's how most people compare their health care experiences anyway
for me on the sports side. So it's more of
a moment than an event, but it ties back to
(10:55):
my roots growing up in Houston. So who's the team
you're going to root for is the Astros. It's hard
to even admit that on the air these days because
for those who don't know, they won the World Series
in 2017, the first time ever, it was like the
best day of my life when they won. And then
in 2020, they it was discovered that they had had cheated.
They had come up with a way to steal signs.
(11:17):
And with this elaborate scheme being a trash can from
the dugout, it was it was crazy. They got really
good at cheating, basically. And ever since then, I almost
don't tell anybody that that's who I rooted for. But
then this last season, they all I wanted was for
them to like, be competitive after that because they had
a good team. They didn't have to have cheated in
my mind that season to win. So this last season
(11:39):
they ended up winning the World Series again and I
just kind of felt like I was able to exhale
a little bit and say, maybe it's okay to admit
that I like this team. You know, I'd like to
think that maybe that makes me maybe that means I'm
loyal or open minded because it's really hard to root
for the bad guys in the sport. I've never had
to before. But when they won this last season, I
was like, okay, at least they won, hopefully without cheating
(12:03):
this time.
Josh (12:05):
That's awesome. Yeah, I think you. And then I guess
there was I read an article.
Where like.
Mattress Jack there's some like.
Mattress owner.
In Houston that laid a big bed on the astro
So you were happy and then I think he won
like something to the tune of $10 million. So I'm
sure Mattress Jack was was happy. I think for me
it was probably a moment, too. You know, I grew
up outside of Chapel Hill, so college sports were super big.
(12:28):
And although it's I'm like the weird kid that.
Doesn't like Duke or Carolina.
You know, back in the day.
But I had the great experience to go to a
Carolina Duke game at Cameron Indoor.
And so, you know, those are, to me, a perfect
example of super, super famous brands in the college sports arena.
Cameron Indoor is kind of an iconic place for the game,
(12:50):
and I couldn't tell you exactly what happened in that game,
but I could still remember, you know, the a lot
of the the scenery around there. So I was super
fortunate there. So appreciate you guys joining. And now we'll
we'll jump into some segments so we do a top
ten bottom ten. And you know, normally this is people
sharing their sales, people sharing their best and worst kind
(13:12):
of sales experiences. On the other side, health system.
Kind of sharing their, you know, most.
Memorable interactions with sales reps. So you can take it
either way. I know you, Zane, have some experience on
the other side of the table. You know, we could do.
That or feel.
Free to answer it kind of your your best or
worst health care experience as a patient, whichever.
(13:34):
Way you want to go.
But why don't you start saying.
Zain (13:37):
Yeah, I think my top ten sales experience working with
salesmen or women or I don't know what the proper
term is anymore. Vendors in the health care space, you know,
really was through COVID. And so I think I can
start naming names because I actually really appreciate them. But
one of them was Genentech, which is a big pharmaceutical
and really appreciated that their sales team, you know, would
(14:01):
almost reach out every other week and not actually trying
to sell drugs to us. I'm not even the right
person like I'm very far. I was very far from
pharmacy when I was working for Henry Ford Health System.
But what I really appreciate about Genentech and Charlie Skinner,
who leads the account, is they were always checking in
on us genuinely. How are you doing? What can we do?
(14:23):
Can we bridge a connection to some of our diagnostic
services to actually help with COVID response? And then Genentech,
which is owned by Roche, has a massive philanthropic arm.
And so they're always wondering, Hey, is there grants or
people we can connect you to to get some funding
to go on and do community level testing or vaccination work?
(14:45):
And so just really appreciated that they read the room
and they weren't trying to pump their product there, their
products that probably aren't very helpful or needed, but we're
still there to support us through that pandemic. So that
was fantastic. And then during that season two, we get
a lot of phone calls from, you know, random technology
vendors trying to sell us scheduling solutions for vaccination clinics
(15:09):
when frankly, like that ship had sailed months ago. And so, again,
just not really some of these folks just not really
paying attention to where we were at in the broader response.
But again, the Genentech team really, really stands out as
people who genuinely cared about us as their client and
knew when the appropriate time was to push for their business.
(15:30):
And certainly after the pandemic And now I believe we
have a very fruitful relationship with Genentech because it's an
appropriate time to do so. But at the time, we're
really just there to take care of us where they could.
So really appreciated that.
Josh (15:44):
Now, that's really interesting because I think for for all the.
Busy in your day, right, the fact that you remember
the company, the people involved, I think that's a good.
Lesson to all salespeople out there.
Particularly in a time uncertain.
Time that that type of small little thing can have
a serious impact.
What about you, Jared?
Jared (16:03):
I pointed to times that I was pleasantly surprised by
folks who are not anywhere on my radar screen, and
both happened within a few months of each other, ironically,
both within a few months of launching the podcast. So
I was at the time I was still working at
a hospital and when they got a package and it
(16:23):
was from a from a sales rep at a SaaS
company and all he did was he just sent me
a rhyming dictionary. He said, Hey, I saw on LinkedIn
you started this podcast and has a wrap Hope, hope
you find this useful sometime. They were not on my
radar at all. We ended up getting able to bring
them in for a for a visit and things. I
(16:45):
just thought like that was so far out of left field.
I didn't know they knew who I was. It was fantastic.
And then just a few months later, at a conference,
I had finished doing a presentation and somebody, again, not
on my radar screen, but worked at a print shop,
came up to me and handed me, said, Hey, check
out the podcast. I hope you don't mind. We grabbed
(17:08):
your logo off the internet and made a couple of
tumblers and handed them for me and my co-host at
the time for me and Peter, and she's like, Hope
I don't mind. I hope you don't mind, like, so
out of left field. Just and I think the two
lessons that still apply were they were personalized. They're unexpected,
but also like they both involved something tangible, like with
(17:28):
everything being so virtual, it was really cool to have
that excuse to have like something. I still have both
those things and still have the rhyming dictionary and the tumbler,
like sitting, sitting in my room.
Josh (17:40):
That's that's that's fantastic. And then I guess on the
other side, Jared.
You know, when, when now, you know, on the on
that point with, with everything being digital, you know, are there.
Are there are there.
Ways of communication, email or something that just.
Doesn't resonate as much as much for you in your.
Day to day?
Jared (17:58):
So I think.
LinkedIn can be the best. It can also be like
so the worst. It can just be the place where
I feel like people have found that as an excuse
to not do their homework. And it doesn't take much
skimming of my profile to know that I put out
a lot of content. I'd love for people to engage
with my content. You want to know what topics I
(18:20):
write about? It doesn't take much. And so for people
to even reach out and say, Hey, what would you like?
You know, any what topics interest you or whatever, like
it doesn't take much homework as like a couple of
minutes reading my profile. And so if anyone wants to
be in my in my world, in my ecosystem, all
(18:41):
you have to do is engage with a little bit
of my content. So I feel like LinkedIn is just
giving people a reason to bypass that and feel like
they see all the info about me. So that's all
they need, whether whether they're offering something that is useful
to me or not that goes like a million miles
for me.
Josh (19:01):
I love the way you put it the best and
the worst.
Because I completely agree. That could be a whole nother,
you know, podcast topic. So, so, so switching gears here
and you know, we kind of do a segment on
some leaders on the sales side.
Health care side. But this one, you know, the health care.
Consumer dream team.
So you know what are maybe.
Five influential leaders.
(19:22):
For each of you that have either shaped the way
that you think about health care, consumerism, or are kind
of health system leaders that are in your mind leading
the way on this consumer driven health care journey. So
maybe we can start with you, Jared, if you.
Have a couple and then switch over to Zane.
Jared (19:40):
Sure. So the first one that came to mind when
you asked that question was Jane Saracen Khan. Her website
is Health is Health Populi. She's a health economist. And
I feel like the biggest value to every health care
leader right now is opening their vision and understanding how
consumers make health care choices. And that means they're not
(20:01):
just choosing between hospital A, hospital B doctor, a doctor, B,
they're choosing between all the retailers that are out there
now offering bits and pieces. And it's not this just
like continuous contiguous journey that we're on. And you're going
from this area of the same health system to this
other area. It's whatever you need at the time that
you need it. So Jane has written several books about it,
(20:26):
but she's just one of those. She's a trend. Weaver
She's at the forefront. And she will she will tell
you what to do there. So I feel like everyone
needs her perspective. And then another one I'd put out
there is an Somers hog. She's a senior research fellow
at Clayton Christensen Institute, spent a lot of years at
at Atrium Health and their innovation team and is a
(20:48):
champion of of Clayton Christensen's theories of disruptive innovation, as
well as human centered design and design thinking and using
that to really focus on what the drivers of health are.
So I'll I'll stop there.
Zain (21:05):
A couple that come to mind come to mind on
my end. The first would be a gentleman by the
name of Gerard Van Greenspan, who go figure, used to
be the vice president of Food and Beverage for the Ritz-Carlton,
and he became the CEO of the Cancer Treatment Centers
of America. And now today, I'm not exactly sure what
his titles are. I believe he's operating as a consultant
at large, but he's been leading a group of folks
(21:28):
who are very much interested in hospitality, real estate, sort
of the futures of senior living and health care and
trying to you know, I think it looks like build
some new residential concepts with a health care component, but very,
very focused on that hospitality level experience. And so I
(21:49):
like to follow a lot of his content on LinkedIn
and the folks he surrounds himself with just to continue
to stay sort of grounded in, I guess, my own
upbringing and hospitality. The other person that I spend a
lot of time listening to is a gentleman by the
name of Scott Galloway, who's not actually a health care expert.
He's more on the marketing side. So I listen to
his podcast and read his books. And what I love
(22:10):
about him, Josh, is he spends a lot of time
sort of analyzing the big companies like the Netflix, the
Googles of the world, the Amazons of the world, talking
about their platform strategy, all things that are very relevant
in health care now. And of course, he makes some
predictions around health care and rightfully predicted that groups like
(22:30):
or forecasted that groups like Amazon and so on will
get into the space. And so I listen to him
as someone who's an outsider to our industry in a sense,
but can still speak to first principles and make some.
I feel like he can see through the fog because
he's not caught up in the minutia of our own
buzzwords and ridiculousness that happens. And then there's three others
(22:51):
who I follow, and one of the contributions I try
to make to our health care podcast is being the
Canadian on the team and having worked in health systems
in Canada. But there is unbelievable digital health talent in Montreal,
and I feel like a lot of Americans and your
listeners need to know that. And so my good friend
Dina Cappuccino and Kathy Miller and Luke Siwa, who all
(23:15):
essentially work either at the Ministry of Health level in
Quebec or work for the University of Montreal or Jewish
General Hospital. These three, in a lot of ways are
making huge moves in the digital health ecosystem in that region,
working inter inter-institutional teaching, human centered design. And Canada is
(23:36):
very far behind, as are relative to the United States.
And so I just very much applaud what they're doing.
And and in Canada, when you start to do some
of the things we talk about here in the US,
you don't just work with one hospital, you have to
work with a whole slew of them and then also
work at the policy level. And so I just really
appreciate sort of that zoomed out view that they have
(23:58):
to take and some. The moves that we're making. But
I think we can learn a lot about here in
the US. And so definitely keep Montreal on your radar
for cool, cool stuff happening.
Josh (24:11):
Fantastic. Fantastic. Well, Jared, any any other ones that come
to mind? It's okay if you don't.
Jared (24:19):
I think that covers that. That's a great cross-section. We
have a whole community called a Consumer first health group
that I feel like I need to mention everyone in
there and there's over 100 people in there. So like,
I feel. Yeah, no, not perfect.
Josh (24:32):
Yeah.
Zain (24:34):
We should post the last question.
I was just going to say.
Josh (24:36):
We'll make sure and find the link so that, you know,
because it would be.
Endless. And I would I would definitely include you two
on there for sure.
All right. Well, perfect. So, you know, we.
Do a sports.
Themed.
MJ versus LeBron debate.
So we kind of debate different topics around build versus buy.
And it it's kind of your classic debate that happens.
Or, you know, around.
Sports and playgrounds.
You know, over there.
(24:57):
And so for, for.
You guys, I was interested.
And this is a very kind of loaded.
Topic, but consumer versus patient. Right. And I think.
What's interesting about that one is how it's evolved from
when you.
Guys first started this journey. And then where do you
see it.
Kind of kind of evolving in the eyes of a
lot of the health care system and people.
(25:17):
So take it wherever you want.
To go, but that's kind of the consumer.
Versus patient.
Jared (25:22):
You want to get started as a.
Zain (25:25):
Yeah, I think, you know, in where it started. I
remember going to a meeting when I was still working
in Canada and I was very young. That was still
young but younger then. And I made the mistake of
referring to patients as health consumers. And literally a physician
yelled at me and said, What the heck? Why are
you speaking this way? And so I'm excited to see that,
(25:47):
at least with the stakeholders I work with now, you know,
this whole lingo about patients more broadly being health consumers
is finally catching on. And I think people are getting
are getting, you know, getting the notion of understanding what
we mean by that. We're not trying to discredit physicians
or discredit sort of the clinical identity and needs of patients.
(26:07):
And I think what's driving that, which makes me really happy,
is a lot of these disruptors who are jumping into
this space Amazon, Google, CVS, you name it, who truly
come at this with more of a consumer, consumer or
typical customer perspective are finally starting to make legacy health
system leaders realize it and they need to get on
(26:30):
this game as well and start thinking like a normal,
for profit publicly traded company would think about servicing their
customer base. And so that's exciting and I do think
it's going to continue. So we'll see where that goes.
But curious what you think.
Jared (26:44):
Jared Yeah, well, it's a very real debate. I mean,
I'm glad you asked us this because it's preventing us
from making more progress. We're getting stuck in these definitions
and it's limiting our ability to have a real conversation
about points that are going to get us to a
better place quicker. And what I mean by that is,
is I hear this all the time. There are providers who,
(27:06):
rightfully so, both terms have come from good places. I
feel like the term consumer and the term patient, the
term patient connotes the dignity of the care that's happening
from a clinician in a care setting. There is a
dignity to that. There's a lot of training, there's a
lot of science behind it. There is no disrespect to
that in using the word consumer. And yet that's what
(27:29):
happens a lot. The common concern is how dare you
refer to them as a consumer? Like to Zane's point,
you know how, you know, providers most commonly are the
ones who are saying, How dare you refer to them
that way? Like they're my patient, I care for them,
I'm treating them. And the goal in my mind of
using the word consumer is to not take away from
that at all. It's actually to build upon that and
(27:49):
actually help us do that part even better. But the
word consumer in my mind is the one I focus
on to use because people in a health in a
health system or a hospital setting. To. We they need
to focus on the time that somebody is actively being
seen by a clinician. So that's the time that you're
(28:10):
a patient for most people. And I always want to
have that caveat, too. There are there are many there
are millions of patients who are chronically ill and are
truly continually patients and encountering the health care system on
a daily basis. So not taking away from that at all.
There's this definition of this understanding that just needs to happen.
Of all the health care choices that happen when you
(28:33):
are not being actively seen by a health care professional,
and those are the parts that the business systems underlying
the health care system right now were not equipped to
deal with. They weren't set up to make things easy.
They weren't set to set up to make things at
a reasonable cost. That's why we have to have insurance
and health plans in there taking on risk because the
(28:57):
business systems underlying it weren't set up for that. They
weren't set up. It was just like, Hey, you're in
the system. We're going to tell you who the doctor is.
We're going to tell you what you need to have
done and you're going to pay that bill. And that's
all it was. So now, as other options have emerged,
the other place people get stuck in that debate is thinking, well,
(29:17):
I don't want to call them consumer because they're not
usually the person who pays for the consumer is really
the person who pays for it. So it's the health
plan or it's the government. And that also limits our
ability to have a true discussion here because, yes, those
parts are important, but those parts are covered in other
discussions that the conversation that's the most useful for us,
(29:39):
for consumers of health care right now, which is all
of us, is to recognize. That the system is not
very easy and the business systems that underlying it that
are underlying it are making it that way. So what
can we do to make it easier? What steps can
we take? How can we partner together? Can digital health?
(29:59):
Can virtual primary care startups and health systems all coexist
for the love? Like let's let's do that. So that's
kind of where where it gets into the weeds and
let's not get lost in in one or the other.
We are all consumers all the time where patients some
of the time.
Zain (30:18):
That's actually a really good way to put it.
Josh (30:21):
I was going to say. Well said. And that's a
perfect segue for. What are those predictions?
I know that you guys.
Look a lot at different companies or different trends. So
interested in kind of each of you top three either
health care predictions for what, the next.
Five years or 1 or 2 years are going to
look like or companies that might be involved.
(30:43):
In helping change that. So why don't we start with you, Zain?
Zain (30:47):
Oh.
Let me look into my crystal ball. I think and
I think I said this on our prediction episode, which
I will have the habit of being right, sort of.
It does one thing. Jared can speak for us. One
thing and I'll say it here, we've already said it is.
You know, I think the future of consumer driven health
care is really just going to be more community focused
(31:10):
and aligned health care. And so if you zoom out
and realize where we are in this country around budgets
and where the government is broke, again, we just hit
our debt ceiling, all that, you know, putting all that together,
I really do think that potentially legacy health systems have
gone too far. When we think about these massive now
(31:32):
conglomerates of health systems, mergers. We know what they're trying
to do is get scale and decrease their costs. But
what has happened, at least the public feels like what
has happened is it's come at, you know, at at
the cost of those health systems being more rooted and
connected in their community, similar to what you would see
in Canada. And not to mention many of these health
(31:55):
systems have preferential status with the government that don't pay taxes.
And in effect, the rest of us are subsidizing them.
And then when you pile on the helicopter, you know,
helicopter cash dumps they've received through COVID, which, you know,
certainly they needed, I think that whole value equation is
finally becoming before the eyes of Joe Public and realizing
(32:18):
that this isn't working. And so I do think, you know,
maybe not tomorrow or in two years, but at some point,
I think health system leaders are really going to be
held to account for where is this money going and
what are you doing with it? And then what types
of services are actually delivering this community such that you
feel like you shouldn't be paying taxes? And so I
(32:39):
think that whole you know, that that whole system is
going to be looked at. And I wouldn't be surprised
if some communities, you know, will start to advocate for
some of these big hospital systems to be dismantled and
will sacrifice scale and maybe maybe a few points of
efficiency to just have these things actually serve the geographic
(33:02):
community as opposed to just big, broad insurance populations. So
that's one thing that I'm looking for. And there's already
been some signals in the marketplace. You see, I think
it was Forbes and some of the big articles that
have gone out, you know, highly criticizing executive pay. A
few reports have gone out showing, you know, the gap
in in community benefit reporting versus what the hospital didn't
(33:26):
pay in taxes. And so I think that's something we
don't often talk about in the digital health space because
it's not exactly related to general health, But I think
it's going to be a big trend in the background
that we need to be watching. And so any any
tools and services that can help health systems demonstrate that
they're here for this community and actually helping people beyond
just delivering clinical care, I think it will be very
(33:47):
relevant to boards and executives to show that they're in
that game. And so that would be one random prediction
that I would put out into the universe.
Jared (33:59):
Nice, nice. I guess we can just riff back and forth, right?
Saying I think the the investments from retail companies will
continue to go up. Those aren't going away anytime soon.
So you look at the escalation too. So Amazon bought
one medical for $4 billion. CVS signify health for 8 billion.
(34:25):
Village MD bought Summit Health for 9 billion and now
CVS bought Oak Street. Or is buying Oak Street or
is planning to?
Zain (34:33):
Is that for sure?
Jared (34:35):
At least they made the bid apparently for for Oak
Street for 10 billion. So those aren't going away and
those aren't just, hey, we have a slight interest in
these things. No, CVS wants to have an entire primary
care infrastructure that can scale nationwide. That's why they're doing this.
Signify health. Also, at the same time, at home care,
(34:58):
that could be an actual continuum of care that all
happens outside the hospital. And do they need to get.
Into.
Acute care? No, they really don't. I don't think that's
part of their value chain. So retail investments are going
to keep going up. What does that mean at some point?
That affects the growth engine for health systems that have
put all those chips in the middle of the table
(35:22):
of primary care? That's what gets you in to see
their specialists who are on their plan. So that's just
going to have an effect there. And then the second
one for me is what that leads to is and
there are health systems, health systems. We're generalizing a lot.
We're painting with a really broad brush. There are some
(35:42):
really innovative health systems out there right now that are
doing amazing things, that are putting together a more digital, cohesive,
connected patient experience. And though it's truly going to become
a competitive advantage to be able to say, look, we
removed some friction from the way that you encounter a
doctor here. We made it easier for you to pay
your bill, to understand your.
(36:03):
Bill, to contact.
Us. We're not going to charge you.
To message us in MyChart.
Or whatever. The thing is, we're compensating that or whatever
it is, but experience is going to become a competitive advantage.
Those have been buzzwords for a little while, but you're
going to see innovators and early adopters at least truly
invest in that and make a difference. I guess we go.
(36:27):
Are we. Are we going. Are we going? Three apiece or.
That's a guess. That's quite a few already.
Josh (36:33):
I don't know saying you got you got any more?
Because I appreciate those, Jared. And I think that what
you hit was was.
Was was spot.
On.
Zain (36:41):
I don't know if I have anything more to add
beyond just opining on Jared's comment around experience becoming a
competitive advantage. That's certainly what's happening now. And then probably
a few years down the road, I would describe it
as like relationship will be the competitive advantage. And so
how do you how do a health system similar like
an Amazon prime relationship, you know, keep people constantly engaged
(37:03):
in their services or what other services might they need
to procure so that there's a daily reason why I
would engage with a health care provider? I think I
think that's going to be an opportunity, a great example.
I think it hit the news not too long ago, but,
you know, a health system like multi care and there
they created a product called Indigo, which is an urgent
(37:23):
care similar to almost like a one medical ish. And
they've partnered with 98.6 to do some of that technology work.
So again, great example of like health systems leading the pack,
working with disruptors to really make those highly personalized and
convenient experiences like Jared describes.
Josh (37:46):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more because, I mean, I think
I've been in the fortunate on the other side of
the seat but have worked, you know, and at biopharma
and now with Tendo, with some really innovative.
System leaders, service line leaders, executive leadership and they're certainly there.
And all of what you just described to me and
my sales mind is how are we going to quantify,
(38:09):
how are we going to quantify ROI? Right. And it
is rapidly changing. And I think both on the other.
Side organizations internally but also to vendors are really going
to have to be dynamic.
And like.
Truly tracking, you know, some of those both in real time.
I think it used to be a legacy.
Spreadsheet and you could go and it could go on.
You know, budget or.
Cap table or things like that. But now it is
(38:30):
truly going to be working, you know, not only with
your own internal system.
But other vendors.
To.
To.
Track almost.
In real time, whatever those ROI metrics are going to
be for.
For for some of.
What you guys are talking about. So super interesting. All right. Well,
a couple more. One of the key purposes that I
started the podcast was to help. I had a.
(38:51):
Unique entry point into this whole digital health.
World. Never would have thought that I would be sitting
here and and even in the digital health world. So
this is kind of our rookie health care.
Leader advice, right? So the purpose of this is.
You know, maybe, you know, Zane, you had a unique
entry into health care. But when you're looking at.
What this future health care is going to look.
Like, you know, what.
(39:12):
Is some advice you have to people that are either in.
School now or looking to kind of be in your
shoes and be.
A health care leader or.
Be a part.
Of some of.
This change.
Zain (39:22):
Sure. Well, a couple of things. I would recommend everyone
start very small. You know, I still think and credit
my career to starting in a very, very small hospital
in rural Canada. It was 58 funded beds on a
good day like dollhouse size hospital. And in that in
that hospital, I was able to learn so much because
(39:44):
when you have a small administrative and leadership team, everyone
has to do three jobs. You know, when I came
to Henry Ford Health System and walked around the corporate office,
I realized there were entire divisions of corporate people that
were doing the responsibilities that I had under one role.
And so I think, you know, don't get caught up
in trying to go to Cleveland Clinic or Mayo Clinic
(40:05):
in the case that you want to be in hospital
leadership and all these big brands and get lost in
the mix, start small. You know, if you can find
a critical access hospital or a tiny community hospital, get
in there because you'll learn all of it. And the
good news is, you know, whether it's a massive hospital
or a tiny one, they're all the same, but it's
only within a tiny one that you can really figure
(40:26):
out what all the pieces are so that you know
what you're talking about when you go to a bigger
place and understand bed flow or staffing implications or what
is it that diagnostic imaging actually does. And so I
think starting small and not getting caught up, you know,
in these big health care brands is probably a good idea.
(40:47):
The other thing I'd say, too, is especially and I
see this, I don't know if it's just a Gen
Z issue, but I see a lot of young leaders
like very focused and adamant about getting face time and
networking with people with very senior and fancy titles, which
makes sense. But don't you know, don't discount the wisdom
(41:07):
that comes from people that are just middle management or
your peers. And like when I think about the things
that I really learned, it came from those folks. And frankly,
it came from like nurses. And in Canada, we call
them unit clerks. So administrators, you know a little bit
about health care, who actually helping to orchestrate every department
(41:27):
of the hospital. So I learned so much from those folks, too.
And so, again, I guess don't get so caught up
on pedigree and flash. You know, you can learn a
lot from the small, the unbranded and the people who
may or may not necessarily be super high on the
org chart. So that would be my advice if you're
just starting out nice.
Jared (41:49):
I like that. I like that. I would just add,
especially for someone who's coming up through the sales ranks
or marketing ranks to focus on making your brand relevant.
Don't assume that because you put something out there organically
on social or in an email or you know, you
have to learn the basics, basic rules of engagement for
each of those platforms and how you're engaging with people.
(42:11):
But don't assume that because you put it out there
that it's making your brand relevant. If you focus on that,
you double down on that, then you're opening doors without
even realizing it and you're reducing the sales cycle. You're
getting rid of a lot of the skills and skills,
you know, the qualified leads that lead to nowhere that
you don't end up winning. You can bypass a lot
(42:33):
of that by putting some value out there into the world.
That's where content marketing can really accelerate a sales cycle
because if you put good content out there, you're impacting
and influencing those who are. Influencing your buyer at one
point or another. So I would definitely like double down
on that. I wish I'd learned that earlier and I
wish I still there's still places I want to get
(42:54):
to in a better place with that. And then from
a personal development standpoint, kind of like what Zayn was saying,
I'd also say like, get informed. About adjacent areas to
the place where you are. So if you're at a
health system, awesome, learn everything about it, but then learn
what what retail brands are doing, what's best by.
Doing.
(43:15):
What's Dollar General at least claiming to want to do.
You know, some of them are doing more than others.
But what's what's MedTech doing? What's that health plan doing?
Do you understand those learn those adjacent areas because they
all connect and also especially like follow the money, learn,
learn the economic engine for each of those types of
(43:37):
businesses and you'll arm yourself with more information than than
you'll then 99% of everyone else around you. And that'll
show through.
Zain (43:46):
Yeah, I think to Jared's point, just would like to
remind people like that the business of health care has
not really changed. So sure, there's all these new brands
that are getting evolve and, you know, these disruptors jumping in,
but they're still operating within the same economic framework to
an extent that legacy health care providers are right if
they're trying to sell the Medicare Advantage patients, it's the
(44:08):
same payment as, as, you know, a traditional health system
that's selling the same market. And so learning those fundamentals
can then help you see through the press releases and say, okay,
what what is this company really doing? What might be
their struggles And the good chance there are going to
be similar struggles at Health Systems Phase two. And so
(44:28):
I think again, going back to like starting small, where
you can actually learn health care fundamentals and then you
can scale it up and go work for someone fun
or someone that's in the news all the time.
Josh (44:41):
No, I love I love the blend of both y'all's
experience because, you know, I, I to very.
Similar was I always point to the most fortunate part
of my medical sales career was you know not this
or that it was sitting in a rural North Carolina
primary care office or being fortunate.
Enough to to to to help with a patient. And
(45:03):
in rural.
Georgia. Right. Which I was calling Houston.
Instead of Houston, Georgia. Right. Like these are fortunate. You know,
these are fortunate experiences that I had. But but I
saw people kind of trying to come from outside.
Of health care and on a technology side and sell into.
Health care. And it wasn't just sales reps.
I mean, these were leadership. And people, you know, try
(45:23):
to say, hey, we should do this. And then in
my mind, I always.
Closed my eyes and thought about, you know, that doctor's
office and say, well, we can't do this, you know,
and we must do this.
But here's why, right?
So I was super fortunate about that. But I'm also.
A big believer.
In evolving. So, you know, although I can remember a time.
Where I literally.
Cold called and set up lunch and went and brought
(45:44):
Panera catered lunch and like, that was a cold call.
I'm not one to say, you know, you got to
earn your stripes and do that type of cold call.
You know, I love leveraging technology. I love what you said, Jared,
You know, building the.
Brand, getting the right.
People. And, you know, there aren't going to be people
that have the experience to just show up in doctor's
office and say, Hey, can I observe what you do?
(46:04):
But I think in absence of that, you really do
have to if you want to walk a mile in.
Their shoes.
Truly get in and then get in grade with some
of those people. So I love I love that advice.
All right. Well, wrapping up the last segment, you know,
normally it's just, you know, quick sales plug or plug.
So we'll.
You know, about a minute each. You know, what what
(46:25):
do you have.
Going on and where can people kind of find you
or support you.
Whatever you're doing?
Why don't you.
Start? Jared Oh.
Jared (46:33):
Thanks for asking.
Josh I would say.
Check out this podcast channel. We're trying. It's called Shift
Forward Health. So health care wrap is the main show
on there. It's a weekly show there. But shift forward
Health was meant to be one channel. It's kind of
like HBO, Max kind of. And that you subscribe to
one thing and you get a whole bunch of shows.
So what we were trying to do is eliminate the
(46:54):
the way that you have to go and find each
show individually and subscribe to it individually. You subscribe to
this one channel. On any podcasting platform and you get
3 to 4 shows each week from different hosts. So
you're getting this this much broader view of the industry.
You're hearing from Zane and me, but you're also hearing
from from our hosts who are based internationally and those
(47:18):
who come from different sides of the industry and represent
a much bigger amount of the industry than Zane and
I could on our own. So that's that's the plan.
There's eight shows on the right now. We're adding a
couple more here in the next few weeks. I mean,
it's just it's it's been a lot of fun to
build that. It's been out there for about a year now.
(47:39):
And it's just the goal is that's the channel for
change makers. If you're interested in helping change that status
quo of the health care system, then it's a place
ideally to have a lot of types of different content there.
So I definitely say and it's all for free. I mean,
that's the whole point. So I definitely invite people to
do that.
Yeah, thanks for asking.
Josh (48:00):
Fantastic. Yeah, fantastic.
And I can attest to it. If you're interested in
consumer driven health care.
Or just health care and digital health on the pulse.
And then I'll translate for Jared.
Basically what he's saying is, is that.
You know, health care wrap is the Game of Thrones there. Right.
You know, health care. No, it's it's it's really awesome
(48:22):
resource and it's been super helpful to me. So appreciate
you sharing. Jared What about you, Zane? Anything going on?
Zain (48:29):
I think that thing that I would plug so my
day job, you know, work with health innovation. I lead
our help, lead our consumers and team. And so if
there's any solution companies out there trying to sell into
health systems or health systems themselves who are looking for
support around their digital health strategy, that's something that we
do day in and day out and work with our
(48:49):
hospital system members to help them understand the landscape of
technology out there. And so definitely reach out. I'm happy
to have a conversation and seeing how the community and
network can best serve you all.
Josh (49:03):
Fantastic.
And I wrote it down while you were talking saying
this is a bonus question. Any Ritz-Carlton.
In the in the.
World, where would you go?
And which which Ritz.
Carlton would you would you want to visit?
Zain (49:18):
Um, I would probably go to the one. So I've
never actually been to one. It's on my goals list
to go to. I mean, it's just very expensive, but
I would probably go to one in the mountains, so
I know there's one I think in Vail. I like mountains.
I like skiing. So I'd probably if I was going
to spend the money, I'd spend it there and ski.
And then the Four Seasons is also very interesting to me.
(49:39):
It's a Canadian company, by the way, and maybe in
a separate show I could talk about the story of
how I got invited through an intern that I met
at Henry Ford Hospital to come and tour their corporate
headquarters in Toronto. But that's a separate story. But on
the fourth season side, I probably can go and visit
like one of their flagship properties in Toronto, which actually
isn't too far from here. And so those would be
(50:00):
my two choices.
Fantastic.
Josh (50:04):
Fantastic. Well, guys, I appreciate the the support and jumping
on the podcast. And you know, Zane, Zane went ahead
and threw a cliffhanger. So we'll have to get.
Together and.
Do this do do this, do this some other time.
But thanks, Jared. Thanks, Zane. And looking.
Forward to.
Help educating and following you guys on the consumer health journey.
Zain (50:25):
Thanks so much. Thanks for having us.
Jared (50:29):
Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you heard,
please spread the word. Tell your colleagues to tune in
for all the awesomeness, then leave a review on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you listen. This show is produced by
Shift Forward Health The Channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to
Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app and you'll
be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our
full lineup at Shift Forward Health one subscription all the
(50:51):
podcasts you need and it's all for free. And remember,
we might have a lot of work to do in
health care, but we'll get there faster together. Thanks again.
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