June 27, 2025 • 56 mins
The Kokoda Track Podcast dives into the experiences of those who have trekked this iconic trail in Papua New Guinea. In this episode, host Glenn interviews Caine, an adventure leader in training, about his perspectives from completing the track multiple times.
Get an inside look at Caine's evolving journey on the Kokoda Track, from his first trek for mental health to leading groups and passing on the diggers' stories. Learn how the history and emotions woven into the land continue to draw him back.
Timestamps:
00:01:30 - Caine's overview of his Kokoda Track experiences
00:08:15 - Handling adversity and challenges on the track
00:12:30 - Connecting with the military history
00:18:45 - Caine's advice for first time trekkers
00:23:00 - The impact Caine hopes each trek has on people
00:26:00 - Rapid fire questions
Key Takeaways:
- Training is crucial, but take the steep hills slowly
- it's a mental challenge as much as physical
- Connect with the local people and culture to get the most out of the experience
- Everyone is capable of completing the track with the right mindset and preparation
- The stories of the diggers must continue to be told to new generations
The Kokoda Track is an emotional, perspective-shifting journey. Are you ready to take on the challenge and become part of the story? Tune in to hear Caine's experiences and wisdom for your own upcoming trek.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apodjay Production. This podcast is proudly brought to you by
Adventure Professionals www dot Adventure Professionals dot com dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
For me, Mission Ridge and Brigade Hill. The whole Kakoda campaign.
More people need to know about it. I know everyone
knows someone who's trek Kakoda, but to actually understand the
stories of what these young guys did, it's harrowing what
they went through.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
They were staunched to the end against odds uncountered, and
they fell with their faces to.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
The Welcome to the Kakoda Track Podcast, hosted by former
Soljeert Glen Asar. This is the place to hear stories
from those who've trecked Kakoda and gained tips and knowledge
about what to expect on the track, or to relive
your own amazing experiences. The Kakoda Track Podcast keeping the
(01:03):
spirit of Kakoda alive.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hey run Glen as a here walking back to the
Kokoda Track Podcast. Today we're doing something a little different
and I'm chatting with Kaine, who's one of my up
and coming trek leaders. And by up and coming, I
mean he's completed I think three or four Coakoda tracks
at this stage are not all with me, but he's
a part of my two year Adventure Leaders mentorship. So
(01:26):
I run a program where I teach adventure leaders, not
just those who work for me, but anyone that wants
to break into the adventure game. I teach them how
to lead, and I then once we go through all
the leadership principles and how to set up a business
and all of that stuff, we then teach them specific
tricks trips. So we got Kakoda, Everspace, camp Killer and
Jarro dogs sitting in the yukon Ossie ten peaks. We
(01:47):
teach them all of that. So we're going to chat
to Caine today about his experiences on the Kokoda track
and what he's learned. And I'm going to ask him
the same questions that I asked Haidi when we did
Hidie's one. So without further ado, let's talk to Kine.
We're going to talk Kakoda obviously, and I've done a
(02:08):
little intro saying that you're doing the Adventure Leader program.
Is it how many Cokodas have you done? Is it three?
Or four?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Three? Two? With you?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Two with me? All right? So I'm going to have
you listened to and I'm not putting on the spot here,
but have you listened to the episodes I did with
Heidi recently?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I've listened to one a while ago, not anything recent.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So I did one a couple of weeks ago, and
it played the last two or three weeks. I'm going
to ask you the same questions I asked her, not
at all. So it's good that you haven't listened to
it because I haven't. Yeah, because now you just get
to go off the cuff for yourself. So I just
put ten questions together. She was very long winded in
her responses, and I say that with all love and respect, Hides.
(02:53):
If you're listening, I don't mean that as a bad thing.
I suspect you may not be as long winded. So
we had to split her episode into two because, yeah,
because it was a little bit a little bit lengthy.
But yeah, I just wanted to know, you know, from
an adventure leaders side of things, like what sort of
experiences they've been through and all of that sort of stuff,
(03:13):
more than anything. So yeah, and that's what we did.
I guess it would help though, to start with you
just giving some context to your Kakoda experience. It's just
an overview of your first one, and I know you
got into it for a mental health purposes. But then
also the difference between that and the next two co
(03:34):
codas because in my experience, and there's a long time
since I did my first two or three, but you
learned so much on that second one and then that
third one. You see things you didn't see before, all
of that sort of stuff. So I'd love to sort
of get your take on I guess how your experience
has changed between that first, second, and third trip.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Yeah. Well, the first one was just with the guys,
a couple of guys that I work with. We did
Dan Hunt from the Mental health movement. He run like
an optimized me program on it, and that was that
was cool, Like, yeah, we did it the traditional way,
I suppose from to Carrie O. Plus I was and
(04:20):
the weather was pretty pretty dry. It was a good
it was. It was a pretty good trip, Like we
didn't compared to doing it like a most recent time
when it was wet the week before, and it was
sort of laughed through our trip as well, we've got
a bit of rain and do it at the opposite direction.
I found it was equally as tough there's no easy
(04:43):
way to do it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
I'd be interested to know, just ad interesting. When you
do a dry trip, people go, it's actually not that bad,
you know, it's not that hard, and that's what they
prep themselves for. But if you had done a really
wet trip first, I wonder if that would have changed
your initial thoughts or response back one of it doing.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
That again, Yeah, well i'd say that to myself again. No,
it was. I mean I trained a lot prior to it,
so the sort of physically, I think it sort of
you warm into it and it was okay. We did
a few little things off the side to go and
look at stuff, and I was always up for that.
(05:25):
But I think, yeah, it's probably right now, I know what.
It's more a mental thing now because you know what
you're in for and that you can do it. So yeah,
by the way, I guess it's changed. I definitely don't
pack the way I packed the first time. I packed
a lot lighter.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
How would you, Well, you did the mental health one,
and for me, that's a large part of what Coakata is.
It's a personal development program as much as it's anything else.
You get so much out of it. How have you
found like, because from my point of view, how have
you found that helpful with people that you're checking with now?
Because everyone goes to a little challenge or you spend
some time up the back with someone that's going through something.
(06:07):
I know you had Michael on the last one who's
had a significant health condition, and so there's a lot
of mindset stuff happening out there right.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Oh yeah, absolutely, Like I think from my experience, like
you know, that first first day is pretty tough. You know,
you're up early, depending whether you go to the dawn
service or not if you're doing an Anzac cocada and
you're up early, and then you're flying usually to popping
debt and then you're in the in the back of
the truck for a few hours and that's never comfortable.
(06:39):
It's just a huge day. And then the humidity your
body's acclimatizing, and then that first hill up is I
think that's probably one of the toughest parts of the track,
the initial start. I guess, and you're warming, you overcome,
you know, you grow, you, you become stronger, and you
know that you can do it. I guess as you
warm into the track, I guess what.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
About physical training side of things. And obviously when you
know what to expect, you can train specifically for it, right,
And that's the biggest question we get is around training.
But you also had some significant I wouldn't say health concerns,
what would you say, called an injury or with your
knee where we weren't sure or you might not track
your cooda again. And obviously that change and you did
(07:22):
get to track corkcada, which is pretty cool. How did
you or do you want to talk about that injury
first and then talk about how you changed your training
for this last Coakada.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Yeah, well I had a scan after last year's one
and I had a tear in me right miniscus and
the well and I had obviously got a bad right now.
I guess that's from yeah, just over time, not young,
(07:52):
but young anymore? Forty one?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Stop it.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, I had a scan and yeah they st the
surgeon wanted to do major operation and I wasn't really
that keen for it. He wanted to do a osteotomy
where they you know, cut your femur in half, take
bone from your hip and change the angle at your
(08:17):
legs on and put it. Yeah. I wasn't really that
keen on it, So I I just sort of altered
my training, like I stopped hyking as much, I guess,
and did more stuff in the gym with just kettlebells
and bodyweight stuff and more more mobility stuff. And yeah,
(08:40):
it seemed to I found my body held up better
on this last trip than it did the previous year.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah that's good, because there was a while there when
you first you know, were carrying that sort of that
injury it we'll call it, you were. I was like, oh,
as good as this bloke isn't this and as passionate
as it is, because your passion is really important to
me as a teck leader, he might not be able
to do this, which would have been a terrible shame.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, that's and I was genuinely pretty concerned after I
got home because it took so long to come good.
But then after this trip I could have almost went
straight back like it was. You know, I was glad
to see the end, but I could have had a
couple of like within a week or so, it was
(09:24):
it was good again, which is a big difference compared
to the year before.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, that's awesome. So let's get into some of the
questions that I asked Heidi. So I'll do nine questions
first and then we'll do another episode and back up
the other questions after that. So you got if you
want to be long winded, feel free, like, I don't
want to temper this at all, obviously, because it's different
perspectives to give people different things. So number one, and
(09:49):
I guess we kind of touched on this with Dan Hunt' strip.
But what first inspired you to track the Kikota? What
was that thing where you just made that decision, right,
that's it, I'm going to go and do that.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Well, years and years ago, I read Peter fitz Simon's book,
The Kakada Book, and I just was originally pretty blown away.
I had never watched a movie or a documentary or
anything on Tokato.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I was it.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Always had an interest in Australian military history, and just
reading his book sort of started that bug. Well, how
do you say it? Like created that interest I suppose,
And then I dug that sort of more into it
and learned more about it, and I knew it was
a pretty popular thing for Australians to go and do,
(10:39):
and I knew it was a physical challenge, which also
I was interested in, I guess, And then when the
opportunity presented itself back in twenty eighteen, I thought, this
is a good opportunity to actually go and do it,
and sort of went from there very nice.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And on that first experience, did you ever have the
idea that you'd come back?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
You're there?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, you just dropped out for a second.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Yeah, I said. All I heard them was on that
first experience.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, on that first experience, did you ever have the
idea that you would come back?
Speaker 4 (11:18):
I actually, yeah, I did. I honestly I can say that, Yeah.
I always thought this will be the last time I'm here.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Because the question number two is what keeps bringing you
back to Cakarta year after year? Now that you've done
three and you're you know, you're going to be on
my hundredth trip as well next year, and I'm sure
as we get more and more trips and you get
time away from work and family and all that sort
of stuff, we'll get you on a few more. So
what keeps bringing you back.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Are the stories. I think that the stories of the
young Shans that need to be keep getting told, and
also the experience that it creates and the growth that
it creates for other people. I guess yeah, I like
meeting Like some of the best times I think of
(12:07):
after you've done a big day and everyone's unewhining and
telling their stories under the hearts of find that awesome
to hear and agard to other people. And then also, yeah,
tell them telling the stories of the soldiers.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I'd love to. I'd love to tell that story that
happened on the last trip where you're up telling your
story and you were saying, I think you were saying
that you were were you laying carpet or something? What
we're doing for a job at one stage where you're
on your knees and you're saying, I'm doing this job,
and then I realized that you can't make a living
(12:42):
on your knees, And one of the young girls goes,
are you sure about that? Totally caught us all off guard,
and that's what, doesn't it?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
What? Yeah, No, that was my first job out of school.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I don't think i've seen you. I don't think i've
seen you speechless before for that split.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Second, Well, I didn't know how to respond to appropriately, especially.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
When we're the track leaders. Yeah, and that's what like
it brings out the Alaricans of you know. And she's
a young girl that works in the minds and has
been around a bit, and she was just she set
the tone on day one. Okay, she's just going to
have a good fun and have a good time.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's good. There's always a good mix of characters.
I guess.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Question number three is how is your view of Kakoda
change from your first track?
Speaker 4 (13:31):
To me, that's a good question. Wow, it doesn't get
any easier, but I guess, well, I'm not a surprised.
(13:51):
I guess like it changes so often, like every time,
like even so it was a year apart in my
last two tracks, and the track is so often on
a part that's not familiar, whether it's a land why yeah,
a little bit of change, right, yeah, yeah, And you
forget how sometimes so close things act one another when
(14:14):
depending on where you were last time and getting caught
up in the moment or helping others and that sort
of thing, like you sometimes you just got your head down,
watching your feet, and then they're it you at somewhere
significant and you didn't realize how close you were, or
and the people they don't change and they're a life
so kind and helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
That's one of the things that always brings you back,
you know. For me, I often think back to when
you talk about my perspective changing, it's not so much
on the place or the people, but it's just on
even after all these times, the awe of what the
young diggers did there good still because I look at us.
We've got the best boots, and we've got the best backpacks,
and we got trekking poles, we got no one shooting
(14:57):
at us. And it can still be pretty tough when
you get hard weather or that sort of thing, and
you think, man, these you boys did this in nineteen
forty two, when the BA clothing available to us anyway
was basic, food was basic. Being shot at like it
just it really blows my mind every single time.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
That's yeah, that's true. And and I think at times,
if you are doing it tough, you've only got to
have a slight shifting perspective of what those guys went
through and then think, oh, well, regardless, I'm going to
be in a hotel room in six days or five
days or wherever you are up to at the time.
(15:36):
There's light at the end of the time. Those guys
or how it was going to end. They were just
in discomfort constantly.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, you know that you're only a few days away
from a pizza and a beer, that's right, Yeah, yeah,
But this kind of ties into the next series of
questions around just the personal development side, I guess, And
the question four is what's one of the biggest lessons
Kakodo has taught you about yourself or about life in general.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
I think I'm still learning them. That's what draws me back.
I guess. It's almost like a when you need a
factory researt you get, you go over and these lessons
just to be grateful for what we have even when
it's tough, And yeah, how lucky we are to be
(16:29):
able to go over and learn these stories about these guys.
That's the Yeah, I don't know, it just makes you
makes you grateful, I guess how lucky we are and
the little things we probably take for granted, and and
how happy they are and they don't know, like I know,
(16:50):
what we like, how we live and the things that
bother us. They're always smiling.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Has it ever been this a question five? It's ever
been a moment on the track that stands out for
you as like, I know, some sort of turning point
or epiphany, or for example, on your first trip, where
you went, this is hard, but I'm going to come back.
Like was there a moment in your mind where just
something clicked for you or was it right from the
beginning you thought I'll do this more than once, which
is unusual, but normally day one or two, struggling a bit,
(17:18):
Day three, starting to get a handle on this. Seeing
day four or five, we're already over halfway and you think,
I'm going to come back and do this again. What
was that sort of turning point or memory for you?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Probably Brigade Hill. The services at Brigade Hill, I think
always gets me. But just the I think the culture
of the people and just being on the track and
and and the awe of it. You can't I hardly
explain how when you're looking out and how big everything is,
(17:54):
and it's just how beautiful and incredible it is. And
I just think a special place and I can touch
if you do it, if you are doing it tough,
or someone you know you're helping, but you get to
a point and you know, then you see the view
(18:14):
and you hear the stories and it's just a pretty
mind blowing I think, especially for people that have experienced
it before.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
This is a personal question, not from a leader's point
of view, just for you personally. How do you handle
adversity or challenges on the track, so physically, mentally or emotionally,
Like if you're you're missing the kids or the wife,
if you're if your knees playing up and you feel them, well,
do you just feeling a bit crooked one day?
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Like?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
How do you personally deal with that sort of adversity
Because at home we can phone someone, we can go
and see a doctor, we can We've got all that
at our fingertips. But out there, you go, well, I'm
day three, I'm not flying out, so my next option
is to just keep going. How do you personally, or
have you ever had to personally handle any sort of
adversity or challenge while you're out there?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Depends I guess on the challenge. Like when we stepped
off the bus at hours on the last trip and
the Stumach big bug kicked in. That was an ideal
for me, Jee that was a unexpected to start. I go,
I guess in situations like that, if you've got to
(19:19):
laugh about it otherwise cry.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That's kind of your personality.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Too, right, Oh yeah, A lot of it was like, yeah,
I guess in situations like that where there's not much
I could do about it, and I'm just mad as
well dial into it, lean into it.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's funny because you see different people handle that adversity differently.
And obviously, when we've been there more than once, we're
a bit more comfortable in the environment, I guess. But
you see when people are there, maybe they've only been
there once, or this is the first time, or maybe
they've come from and I mean this lord you respect,
but like maybe a slightly softer background. They haven't really
dealt with a lot of hardness or or whatever, and
(19:55):
then it's like, oh, you know, this is a big thing,
whereas you and I might shake it off and go
this this is not a massive thing. So I mean
for me, I've always I've had some big things happened
out on the track, but you know, there's nearly one
hundred trips under my belt, but nothing's compared to things
I went through the military, So I always kind of
put it into that context or other hard things I've done.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Yeah, I think a lot of people, Yeah, are definitely
the same. I can relate to that for sure, because
I've got Yeah, you do, you've been through hard to think,
I think, and until someone experiences they don't need to
recall on those past experiences to get them buy I guess. Well,
(20:37):
you can also think, like to the stories like if
you're really if you're doing it tough, at some point
you're always going to get to the next break and
rest or whatever, and you just got to think, you know,
like think of medicine story and how how and that
kind of puts it in if you've got a bit
of chase or something into perspective, you know, like he
crawled for three weeks, I think. But I think most
(21:05):
people have been through something that you know they can
lean into, they're going to be okay with.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, I agree. Most people are more capable than they
give themselves credit for. And I think that's the great
part of kakoda is it allows them to tap into
that and then you've now got that information forever to
say all I can do tough things.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Absolutely, that's it, And that's the growth that kakoda provides too.
I think when when you ye know I can do this,
I can do that and I think it helps people
with their mindset and their growth quite default, I think
just doing it creates that.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, I love it. This next few questions around connection
to history and culture. So number seven and these are
all for you personally, But what does the military history
of Kakoda mean to you personally? I mean, ah, I'll
(22:08):
tell you why this question interests me because as a soldier,
I tap into the soldier side of me. And even
though I've not experienced anything near what they did in
nineteen forty two, but I have been in war zones
and I have had experiences with a lot better technology
still and a lot better comms, and so I always
tap into that message. But it always interests me from
(22:29):
civilian's points of view. And I know you love military history,
which is obviously a benefit. I get people that come
over and they just want to do the physical side
of the track. But for us, in particularly with you
guys doing the Adventure Leader program, as you know, I
really push you to learn the story and be able
to tell the story and stand up in front of
people and all of that sort of suff and get
uncomfortable and even if it gets challenging, say to you, well,
(22:51):
you know, it was challenging for them in forty two.
We always tap back to that, but it always interesting
me as to what that military history might mean for
you on a personal level. Lot why it means so
much to you.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Well, I think I just don't want the stories to
die ever, Like I want the stories to be told
to my kids and then them and their kids. I
think the history of it is the part that I
don't want to lose. I want the country to be
able to recognize what these guys, these young men did
and how brave they were without you know, a lot
(23:24):
of them didn't have a choice and they and then
and then when they did, they chose to sacrifice at
all to defend Australia. I just don't want the stories
to leave. That's probably the thing for me. And I
found out recently that I didn't know that there's people
in my family that served and didn't come home from
(23:51):
Kingy and places like that. So and this is all
new to me, which is pretty pretty crazy as well.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It is crazy. I was listening to this is off
topic of this, I guess, but it's linked. I was
listening to a podcast recently that Chris Williams, and then
he was saying that you know, in three generations will
be forgotten. Most people won't even remember your name. And
you think, nah, that's not three generations, that's like my
great grandkids. But then it's true when you think about
the fact that we've got great like I've got two
(24:19):
great grandfathers that both fought in the First World War,
but i don't know much about them, and I've done
a little bit of research. Now at the time, they
were doing something huge for our country. But you know,
you're largely three generations on, you're forgotten, which is a highlight,
and it's something Kakoda. I'm like you, I want to
keep the story alive. That's why I elected to start
doing the Adventure Leaders program because I knew I can't
(24:42):
do this forever. I'm in my fifties now. I still
feel good, but there has to be an end date
and I've got to keep passing on these skills, but
also the stories because all the diggers I've met who
fought over there have all passed on. And so you know,
now I'm at being in my fifties and the blokes
that I was learning offering their seventies, like, we've got
to pass these stories now. Otherwise, like my great grandfathers,
(25:03):
they're just a name somewhere. Otherwise I've got his medals
or one of their medals, but otherwise they're largely forgotten.
And I never want these guys to be forgotten. I
guess at the end of the day, you and I
and I mean this with no disrespect. We're just ordinary blokes.
So of course we're going to be forgotten in generations,
but I don't want that for the guys at forty.
So I one hundred percent agree with that. Yeah, question
(25:28):
number eight, and this is more of a track leading one,
I guess now, and you know I put a big
onus on this, but it's how do you help others
connect with the story of Kokada while they're tracking? So
that's I like that question purely because you know you
are a track leader and you're something that I've identified
that could be really good at this. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I think when you get individual like it doesn't have
to be at Consrach or is your other battlefield or anything.
Just as you're on the track and when you get
time with different individuals, it gives you opportunity to chat,
talk to each other, tell each other a bit about
each other and then you know you can go. They
(26:06):
generally as start asking questions just through I guess, being curious,
and that gives you an opportunity to talk more about
certain areas along the track and the people. And I
find that generally happens whilst you're out there.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
It gets you better at telling the story too, because
I remember you and I were talking about the struggle
of videoing yourself and all of that, and I said
to you, don't try and read the story. Imagine you're
just telling your mates and you're in the smoko over
the smoko table or the brewer room and you're like, yeah,
I tell that story all the time, and people get excited.
Well that's how you need to tell the story. Well,
when you're walking and talking, that's how you tell the
(26:45):
story because you're just in a conversation. So I think
it the more we're there and the more we talk
about it, the better the story becomes, because we become
better storytellers, and the better we are as storytellers, the
better we keep this whole story alive. So that's that's
the link for me I put.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
And I find it definitely like when I've got all
that information, I know the story, it's being scripted. It's
not comfortable for me talking about it and just talking
about what I know and what I've learned and just
talking in the general conversations so much easier.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, But the last question in this series is what
do you think trekkers should know before they come to
understand Ka Coda beyond the physical challenge? So you know,
if you were to give people any tips on teking
Ka Coda outside of the physical, what else do you
think they should know? But it about the history, about
the country, about anything that is not just the physical
(27:42):
side of you. There's some ups and downs, and they're
going to be hard, and you could get some rain
and it could get slippery. But outside of that in
the physical preparation, what do you think people should know
about the country? About maybe about the history or other people.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Ah, just how lovely they are and kind and happy.
Theyways struck with their personalities and getting like they're shy,
but they eventually they open up and they're lovely, lovely people,
especially out on the track. And then yeah, just to
(28:16):
immerse yourself, like ask questions and learn, like that's part
of the experience.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, I love that. Let's go into some I'll add
some of the leadership questions from because we're moving quite
nicely through these. What advice would you give to someone
preparing for their first Kakoda trick I've never been before.
They say to you, hey, I'm checking Kakoda in a
couple of months time. They know that you've been there
(28:45):
a few times. What sort of advice you've probably had
this question? What sort of advice do you give them?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
The first thing I'll say is, regardless of your physical fitness,
I'd recommend getting a personal porter that's just purely just
so for the experience and to getting closer to someone
that lives on the track. I think that's one that
i'd definite highly recommend, just because of the connection that
you're going to build with them, and to train lots
(29:17):
of hills.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And if you can do it. If you think you're
doing enough hills, do more.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Yeah, yeah, we'll take the stairs like yeah. Just I
guess be consistent. You don't need to be like going
berserk because you're just going to walk into it. Your
body will acquimatize. But if you're consistent with your training,
I guess twelve weeks out or even longer, if you
can just you'll then the more you do prior, the
(29:45):
more you'll really enjoy the experience.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
What's one thing that you think everyone should experience on
the track, What's something that you think maybe people miss
out on? And I'll give you mind, like what did
a guy years ago that just didn't physically train enough.
And so when we would get to each village or
anytime we sat down, he wouldn't move. And so back
then there was one of the old Fuzzy wuzz he's
still alive in the diary, and we walked down into
(30:09):
the village and see him. And at this point was like, no,
I'm not going to see him. I'm too tired. And
I think, man, you're missing out on the good stuff
if you don't have the energy to go and do
some little side walks or walk through the villages or
talk to people or and so we missed all of
those little experiences because he just did what he had
to do to get through. He looked at his feet
all day whenever he sat down. He was the last
one to sit down, obviously, but it was also the
(30:31):
last one to get up. Everything was a real effort.
And I just said to myself, like if you've just
done a bit more training. I'm sure this would have
been more enjoyable. But from your experience, what do you
think everyone should go out of their way to experience
while they're.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
There the locals, like the women and kids in the villagers,
go on to have a chat to him, you know,
buy some fruit, get a warm chair of drink with
the local community. But I agree with like what you
(31:05):
just said, all those little things on the side, you know,
into the little museums or up to where there was
a you know, a burial or something something off to
the side, that if you do the work, you have
the energy and your body feels good enough to go
and and do those little things. You're not rolling in
(31:26):
absolutely cooked, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, what does it mean to you to be a
leader on Kokoda? Not just the logistics of all right,
this is how I run a trip, but emotionally culturally,
you know, what's the sort of deeper thing. Because a
lot of people track Coakoda and more than once you'll
have people track it, but they don't want to lead.
You're you've purposely gone out of your way to connect
(31:49):
with me because you want to lead. And that was
a thing, right, and you don't need to. You've got
a very good job, You've got a very good stayle Hanley,
family life at home. You don't need to go and
do this. So what is it that drives you to
want to be an adventure leader?
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Yeah? The stories and the opportunity to meet new people
and and get them to experience it, the personal growth
that you get from it. And I just even just
having the I guess me going over there, I still
get so much out of it for myself. Yeah, it's
(32:34):
a really good question. It's like I'm drawn to the place.
I guess I never from the first time. I always
thought I'd come back. I didn't know in what capacity,
but I always thought I'd be coming back.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It's interesting because in Africa, which I do a bit
as well, that they have a thing that they call
the African itch, which is, once you've been to Africa,
you always want to come back. And I definitely noticed
the same thing in PNG when people have been there
and have experienced it outside of just the centers of
Port Moresby or the high unemployment, and you know, there
(33:10):
can be some violence and all that sort of stuff,
but when they get out to the villagers and experience
of real people. You just want to go back. It's
such a powerful drawback. So, yeah, they caught the African
nich in Africa, and I guess you know we caught
the PNGs. You know, you just want to go back there.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Yeah, I think like, like I love going on the
adventures and getting out of my comfort zone, I suppose,
And I think I want that to my kids too,
Like I love for the opportunity one day as they
get older, to be able to experience that with them
and show them cultures and how happy these people are
(33:47):
with what they have. And I think it's a great
thing for youth development too, like to you know, young
young people to go over there and experience it. I
think that's it's a really good thing to learn the
stories and meet the people and experience the culture.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah. I was just talking to our boys.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Millie's boys are ten and eleven and obviously mum being
from P ANDG, but they've not been there and so
we're looking at take them back there soonish and the
ten year old. You know, they're typical kids. They're very sporty,
good athletes, but they're also love their devices and like
if there's if Wi Fi is down. It's the biggest
s think in the world, like the Wi Fi's lagging,
what's going on? And I was just explaining how you know,
(34:30):
they don't have anything in the villages of Kakoda, but
they have everything. And they really weren't struggling to get
their heads around that. And I said, look, there's no
They said, we want to go and said, I know,
there's no electricity. Like the other day, we were going
somewhere in the car and they wanted to bring their iPads.
I said no. They said, why not, it's because you
don't need them, Like we're going to talk to each other.
We're going to go in and have lunch and they'll
both sit on their iPads and if you let them, right,
(34:53):
So I just said no. I said, well you're not
go about it in the iPad? Why not? Well there's
no electricity, there's no connection. Well what do you mean
no electricity? That's pretty bad. And I said no, it's
not there. But they've got all the water that they need,
they grow all the own food. Everyone's got a house.
They live in literally grass, some of them still with
dirt floors. They were really struggling to get their heads
around that. So I can't wait to take them back
(35:14):
to experience that.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Yeah, that's funny. Well, this morning, while the kids were
getting read for school, I was we were talking about
like they often asked me about, you know, cacada and
different questions, and this morning somehow come up. I can't
remember how, but they I was talking to them about
the fresh fruit that you buy on the track and
you know, talking to the women in the village, you know.
(35:37):
So we come into one village and we bought a
pineapple and the boys cut it up for us, and
I said, you've never tasted fruit, so you've tasted village fruit.
I said, it's unbelievable. And then cla Claio said, oh,
could you make a smoothie? I said, mate, you just
eat it delicious. I guess then I thought of his
well maybe you could if you had like a water
(35:57):
and petal or something that I said, maybe they just
drink water and they eat the fresh fruit. It's delicious.
There's no smoothies, mate. That was pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I'm actually so I'm going to get credit tomorrow. I
get back for five days and then I go again.
And on that second trip, Heidi's coming and she's bringing
her twelve year old son. So it's the first time
you bought one of her sons. And so I'm thinking
what I might do is do a podcast out there
where every day I just do a three to five
interview with each of them away from each other day
(36:29):
so I get her perspective of Now this would be
her tenth trek or ninth track, but trekking with her son,
that's pretty cool, and I'm trecked with my daughter, so
I know what that's like. So I'd love to get
her spin on it, and then get his spin on
it as well, because it's his first time, and hopefully
if that goes or I can mold it all together
into one pretty cool podcast. I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, But I'll give you a couple more and then
I'll let you go. I know you don't probably love
being under the pump with these questions and making you think,
but I love it because even when there's that silence
and I'm trying to think of an answer, I love
that because that's just real and authentic and so that
you know, for me, it's sort of a thing. But
this question to do editing, no no edit, bro we
(37:09):
get the science will staying there. I'll call this the
thinking man of Kakoda. You're this thinking time. You know
the old game chows to your probably not old enough
to remember the game shows where they play the thinking
music while someone makes a decision. I've got to find
some of that thinking music.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
I think the table run out before this.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Question is I guess related to work and stuff as well.
But how is leading people on Kakoda shaped your own
leadership style or your own leadership philosophy.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
I don't think it's changed that much. I just tend
to be myself not I don't think I carry you
like any like like I think. I don't know. I
don't know if I've never really thought of myself as
a leader in that sense. I just try and look
after everybody, making sure that everyone's huntable and enjoyed himself.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
See, for me, whilst I spent time in the military,
which was a really different leadership style, Like it was
very brutal. It's we got a job to get done,
and everyone understood that that they were in the military, right,
So you didn't have to think about people's emotions or
all of that sort of stuff. It was just what
we would call a robust conversation policy. If you did
something shit, they'll just say mate that with shit, and
(38:35):
you go, okay, what needs to improve? And you never
took it personally. It was like you never thought either
he doesn't like me or she doesn't like me. It
was just, hey, I just that wasn't good enough, that
wasn't the standard, and we're not going to Out of
the military, I had to learn you can't do that.
Just not everyone likes that blunt style, and I can
still be blunt. And I warned people when they work
for me that I am going to give you really
(38:55):
honest feedback because that's the best way it works for me.
But I have to explain that it's not personal. I
definitely want you to grow. If I didn't want you
to be here, you wouldn't be here. But one thing
I took out of the military and I still use
on Kokoda and it's come up regularly for me, is
being the calm in the chaos. It doesn't matter what's happening,
how bad the weather is. If someone's really lagging behind
(39:16):
and I'm thinking that's going to slow us down. I
try not to let the trekkers themselves feel that because
they've got enough on their plate, and as leaders, our
job is just to be the calm in the chaos,
because in their minds, there's already a lot of chaos,
you know, and if they see us panicking, they think, oh,
he might know more than I know, so there might
be something worth panicking about. So I've definitely had to
adjust my leadership style. But I could see how if
(39:38):
you ever step into leadership roles anywhere for people listening
out there, or if you're already in one, it will
show you different ways of leading. Because I always watch
how Killer leads his boys, and it's a real quiet style.
He's sort of always joking and laughing, but if he's
ever occasionally you'll hear him snap if something very rare,
but if something needs to be done and they all
jump because they okay, well he's pretty serious now. And so,
(40:02):
whereas I've listened to leaders in the civilian wor can't
be friends with your team because then they'll they'll take
the piss so you'll be too friendly. Well maybe, but
if you've got the right leadership style, they should also
know when you're being a bit more serious. I love
analyzing it from the point of view watching Killer and
or watching sometimes we get some alpha personalities and I
watch them try and sort of have control and lead,
(40:24):
which obviously you know that's fine as long as they're
not doing anything that's affecting other trackers, and that's when
we'll step in. But yeah, I've learned a lot in
my leadership style, and I do play leadership roles. Obviously,
I think, yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
You would be able to see what like what my
the way I've never really thought about analyzed my own.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Style.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
I think, yeah, I'll watch you and then you'd probably
see what your form EU opinion of how I do
it just by watching me, I.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Guess, well, my take from the outside, Obviously, you're still
learning the leading and I can see you actively leading
into that, which I love, Like you're not waiting for
me to solve problems or you're just someone that gets
out and about. But you're really good at communicating, like
you seem to just pick up people's personalities and be able.
You're one of those blokes that can literally connect with everyone.
(41:18):
You're quite self deprecating, as in you'll make a lot
of jokes about yourself, and that puts people at ease
because they Okay, like you know, which I think is
a really nice trait to have. But also you are
very calm. You have a nice calm leadership style, so
you're not someone that's like I can be a bit
stern at times, but I've been doing this a long
time and I know when I need to do that.
(41:39):
But yeah, I think you've got a really good, real
ousie sort of Alarican capacity to just connect with people,
if you if you want my honest sort of thoughts
on your on your leadership style.
Speaker 4 (41:50):
Yeah, I think that comes me up pretty pretty well mate.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
As a final question, just so that I can stop
harassing you, what super comfortable? What impact do you hope
that each track has on the people who join you?
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Oh, like life change, not life changing in the sense
that they and mind like something that they can take
with them forever that they can look back on, whether
they come back again, go back to and experience Kakota again,
the experience that they can remember for the rest of
their life, like I went there, I learned about this
(42:34):
and the stories that they can tell others about how
amazing it is and the experience that they had and
the personal growth that they still that they got from it.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, I like that. I say life changing all the time,
and I checked myself because I think, oh, that's a
pretty big claim. But I'm more comforts I'm more comfortable
that now than I've ever been, though, because I've just
seen too many times where it's legitimately changed people's perspectives
or outlooks or even the introspective at themselves. I've heard
(43:07):
it too many times. I've witnessed it too many times,
and so I just say to Bill, this is life changing.
I've got a bloke coming on a trip so that
he's bringing his son, who's an adult son, and he said,
you know, he's having a few struggles and this is
why I wanted to bring him, and I don't expect
you to perform any magic or anything. And I just
pulled him much straight away and said, look, I think
you might be surprised. I said, I genuinely believe this
(43:29):
trick to be life changing for people. Like anything, you
have to allow it to be life changing. But most
people who are willing to commit the time, the physical energy,
the money to come and do something like this, I
think they're already open to that. So they're coming with
that sort of mindset but I legitimately am comfortable with
life changing these days. And it's a big, big call.
But I watched people spend thousands and thousands of dollars
(43:51):
on personal development. I've got a friend that goes to
Tony Robins every year. He comes to Australia for one week,
five days. And I'm not bagging Tony Robinson any stretch.
I like his stuff. But she goes, we're in the
army together, we're medics, and so she spends five thousand
dollars for a week. There's five thousand people in that event,
so it's a big run event. So you know, if
you're doing some quick quick maths on that, you're talking
(44:14):
about some pretty big dollars that he's bringing in through that.
It's twenty five million dollar a week for him, and
then he's got a lot of staff and so on.
But you're one of five thousand people. And she says
to me, it's life changing. I've just you come out
of there was so much energy and that I've watched
her and nothing's really changed, and of what And I
mean that with audue respect. I love her, but I
just said, you know, I haven't really seen that much change,
(44:35):
and so I've explained to you what the change is.
She goes, well, all right, nothing really, but that's why
I go back. When I go back, I feel it
again and I go like, man, you're spending well. Every
third time she goes, she gets a freebie, or she
can bring a ticket or bring someone else. But in
the time I've known her, she's probably spent thirty forty
grand going to these things, but nothing's actually changed. Whereas
(44:57):
Kakoda genuinely touches you at some level, I've made I've
been doing this for so long. I went through a
divorce many years ago, in twenty ten, In twos eleven,
I still kept checking Kakoda with people. I think it
was part of my therapy. I think it actually helped me.
That's a big claim, but you know, I've been through
a lot of stuff that it's been there and helped before,
So it's a really big claim. But I'm you'd be
(45:18):
hard pressed to convince me otherwise I'm going to stand behind.
I'm comfortable with it these days. Yeah, I think, yeah,
I'm made to finish off. I've got ten rapid fire questions.
So the idea is to try and these are a
bit deeper than they probably should be. For rapid Fire,
they're not just yes no answers, but just the first
sort of answer or thought that comes off the top
of your head. For these ten. To finish off the
(45:40):
first one, what's the number one thing people underestimate about
kakoda ah.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Emotion? Yeah, future, Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Many people expect the physical right, they don't think about
the emotional. Well, that's good. For the second question, what's
the most emotional moment you've witnessed on the track?
Speaker 4 (46:11):
I've witnessed or experienced myself? Because for me Brigade Hill service. Yeah. Oh,
very emotional. But I think Michael finishing with the group
going through first on that last trip was pretty emotional.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yeah, that was pretty cool. I'm going to do a
podcast with him so that I'll give people more context
around around an answer to you, so I won't give
away too much yep. Question three, how do you handle
someone who wants to quit halfway through? Have you had
that experience yet?
Speaker 4 (46:53):
Not? No, I'm not like so that toys at the
cot and I want to get me out of you.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
No, I have had that experience. So for me it's
I don't do that easily. It's typically about trying to
talk them through it, you know, try and get another
day out of them, and if you can push on
another day, I can go okay, I'm going to be
okay here. But there has been one or two where
they've just refused, and on day one or day two
they go, this is not for me. You go okay, well,
I guess that's what it is. But I'll always try
(47:19):
and push them through another day because when they can
get to another day, they'll go, Okay, maybe I can
do more.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, just get not fully
get in their head, but just positive reassurance, tell them
that you know you're capable of more than what you
probably think, and just keep chipping away and then break
it down like too smaller sections.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I guess question four because he's a rapid fire. What's
the one item every treker forgets but absolutely needs enough?
Every treker would forget something, But what's something you regularly
see people forget that they probably should bring?
Speaker 4 (47:58):
Rock tape?
Speaker 2 (48:02):
How good is it?
Speaker 5 (48:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (48:05):
Save me on the last last one together?
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Makes you surprised how many people turn up without tape?
And then next thing only strap and knees and it
takes so much tape you think, did you bring your
tape with your help us? You know, I like that.
How do you mentally prepare you personally for each crossing?
Now that you've done more than one, you know what's
in store if you're not feeling one hundred percent whatever,
how do you Is there anything you go through to
mentally prepare?
Speaker 4 (48:33):
No, don't get don't have the last time too? I
think really got four kids, four kids between twelve and.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Seven, flat out, you're just looking forward to the holiday.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Yeah, yeah, a tent amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Question six. What does the spirit of Kakoona mean to
you personally? Oh, movie, I'll tell your mine. Mine's one
of the pillars at issue. Rather, it makes you to me,
that is what old spirit of Cado would be. It's
like leaning on the people around you, helping the person
(49:08):
next to you, because when you make it about something
bigger than you, And that's a good tip for anyone
that's over there and you're having a bit of a struggle,
start looking at other people and helping other people and
and you know, hey, you travel a mate, and when
you start focusing on other people, you hours go and
you realize, oh, I haven't really thought about how I
might be struggling a little bit. And that's where I
think makeship is really powerful for them and for you.
Speaker 4 (49:31):
Yeah, one hundred percent matship. That's I Yeah, that's a
huge one. I think that's a great answer. And then
you've got all the other the sacrifice and all those things.
I often when you're when you're helping others, it's sort
of you don't you don't think about yourself. You're not
(49:53):
worried about what, oh that's we need hur and or
miss feet, report rights discussing because you don't as in
a position that I was in, and you're just too
concerned making sure that they're there.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Okay, what's your favorite village or section of the track?
And why.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
A fogye to Brigade Hill probably, Yeah, a fog really
is pretty cool on a love Mission ridge and looking
back at a fogie and then and you know you're
going to Brigade Hill for the service.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
Yeah, and people have done a fair bit of the
track by then too, so it's a good time to
sort of do that service because they're feeling it a bit.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
You know, they're feeling it a bit, but they're also
I think a lot of the time they've they've got
their legs and there's you know, there's a confidence.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yeah. Question eight is what's the toughest day on the
track for you? Physically or emotionally? Do you think if
someone said, hey, what's the toughest day? I get asked
this question a lot, and it's a hard one to answer.
This very individual, But for you, what would be the
toughest day physically or emotionally.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
Emotionally? I think, well, and it depends in the direction
you're going. I guess h so on the previous on
the one we just did, going back to that that
going that direction towards Brigade Hill and finishing there and
then doing the service that was that was that was
a big day uphill and then go in the other direction.
(51:21):
For me would be day one just it's just exhausting
and then humidity, and then the first climb and you know,
there's so much self doubt usually and and and you
know you're anxious, Oh this is so hard, and then
you get and then you're halfway through day two, you
you you get your legs and yeah, you can do it.
(51:43):
I think that's big. Big be patient, it's gonna it's
you're gonna you know, have a great experience. So I
think day one for most people that haven't done it before,
I think it's a tough day.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Question. The last question, what would you say to someone
who's scared that they can't do it? So a lot
of people listen to this podcast because they're trying. They
want to do it. Obviously, why would you keep listening
if you didn't want to do it? Obviously we get
a lot of people who've done it, and that's why
they're listening for memories. But you want to track a coder.
You're listening to this and maybe it scares you more.
So what advice would you give to someone that says, well,
(52:17):
I don't think I can do that?
Speaker 4 (52:21):
Yes, again, absolutely you can. I think the limitations are
only placed on themselves. They absolutely can and they will.
They just need to be patient and do some work prior,
to do some exercise prior.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Yeah, as you know it in your life trip, you
know you experienced someone with Parkinson's. I've had amputees, single
and double leg, all sorts of things, young and old
and everyone in between. And sometimes the people have struggled
the most have been the people that you wouldn't pick,
you know, in their thirties fit healthy, but something goes wrong,
they get a bit of a diarrhea or a cold,
(53:03):
or a knee injury or or something happens. And then
I've seen people in their sixties and seventies just charge
on through these doing what they're doing. I'm going to
get through it anyway. So yeah, it's anyone can can
do it. It's just going to come down to how
much you want to do it and how much you're
going to be willing to push through. And for those
people who think about doing who are scared, I just
say do the training. Get as much training in as
(53:25):
you can without overtraining, but because you get older, but
do as much training as you can to prepare yourself
and then just give it a crack.
Speaker 4 (53:32):
Yeah, and you'll get through it, you and you'll love it,
and it'll be over. That's the thing too. People think
it's going to drag out and you know it's eight
days or whatnot, and say a lot. But it's over
and you're like, oh my god, that went so fast.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yeah that's such common feedback, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (53:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah, all right, mate, your three trips in. We'll do
our next podcast when you hit number ten, I reckon,
what do you reckon?
Speaker 4 (53:57):
Yeah? I can breathe again now.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
No pressure, but no pressure. That good. I really enjoyed
putting on the spot to be honest and just getting
people's raw sort of opinion on things, and I want
to start years ago. I used to do some of
the early episodes out on the track, and I want
to start getting back to that too, just interviewing people
out there and editing it all together when I get home,
and just seeing how they feel day by day as
(54:25):
opposed to trying to memorize it all. So maybe I'll
get you on one of those one day where you
just easily give me two to three minutes at the
end of the day.
Speaker 4 (54:32):
Yeah. Cool. Well, when you get to talk to Michael,
I won't spoil it, but make sure you talking to
talk to him about coming down off Mount Bellamy in
the night. That was incredible experience.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Heal, Yeah, I'll definitely.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
The boys worked together and with him and just amazing.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Looking forward to it.
Speaker 6 (54:54):
Right, Let's see s racing bond damvisis.
Speaker 3 (55:18):
So the bond between Ossie's and the people of Papu
and New Guinea was forged in war and it endures
in peace. We've felt that friendliness, that special connection in
the comforting presence of our porters and in every small
community along the Kakoda Track.
Speaker 5 (55:37):
Who Okay, guys, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
It would be awesome if you'd share this with anyone
you know that's going to the Kakoda Track or that's
been and has a keen interest in the track. It's
people and those that choose to track it. The pillars
of Isshaba say, courage, endurance, makeshif and sacrifice great words
to live by, and this podcast will offer makeshift and
a place for those that live and love the Kakoda
Track experience Until next episode, live a life that inspires
(56:20):
you and those around you.
Speaker 5 (56:21):
And remember to take time out to think about what's
really important, what's really important, What's really important?
Speaker 1 (56:28):
Thanks fellow stack to the Kakoda Track Podcast. To get
in touch or stay up to date, go to Kakoda
Track Podcast on Facebook or email Glen at Adventure Professionals
dot com dot a here. Don't forget to subscribe and share.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
With your friends.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Let's keep the spirit at the stories of Kakoda at
the P and G People alive
Apodjay Production. This podcast is proudly brought to you by
Adventure Professionals www dot Adventure Professionals dot com dot au.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
For me, Mission Ridge and Brigade Hill. The whole Kakoda campaign.
More people need to know about it. I know everyone
knows someone who's trek Kakoda, but to actually understand the
stories of what these young guys did, it's harrowing what
they went through.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
They were staunched to the end against odds uncountered, and
they fell with their faces to.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
The Welcome to the Kakoda Track Podcast, hosted by former
Soljeert Glen Asar. This is the place to hear stories
from those who've trecked Kakoda and gained tips and knowledge
about what to expect on the track, or to relive
your own amazing experiences. The Kakoda Track Podcast keeping the
(01:03):
spirit of Kakoda alive.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Hey run Glen as a here walking back to the
Kokoda Track Podcast. Today we're doing something a little different
and I'm chatting with Kaine, who's one of my up
and coming trek leaders. And by up and coming, I
mean he's completed I think three or four Coakoda tracks
at this stage are not all with me, but he's
a part of my two year Adventure Leaders mentorship. So
(01:26):
I run a program where I teach adventure leaders, not
just those who work for me, but anyone that wants
to break into the adventure game. I teach them how
to lead, and I then once we go through all
the leadership principles and how to set up a business
and all of that stuff, we then teach them specific
tricks trips. So we got Kakoda, Everspace, camp Killer and
Jarro dogs sitting in the yukon Ossie ten peaks. We
(01:47):
teach them all of that. So we're going to chat
to Caine today about his experiences on the Kokoda track
and what he's learned. And I'm going to ask him
the same questions that I asked Haidi when we did
Hidie's one. So without further ado, let's talk to Kine.
We're going to talk Kakoda obviously, and I've done a
(02:08):
little intro saying that you're doing the Adventure Leader program.
Is it how many Cokodas have you done? Is it three?
Or four?
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Three? Two? With you?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Two with me? All right? So I'm going to have
you listened to and I'm not putting on the spot here,
but have you listened to the episodes I did with
Heidi recently?
Speaker 4 (02:26):
I've listened to one a while ago, not anything recent.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
So I did one a couple of weeks ago, and
it played the last two or three weeks. I'm going
to ask you the same questions I asked her, not
at all. So it's good that you haven't listened to
it because I haven't. Yeah, because now you just get
to go off the cuff for yourself. So I just
put ten questions together. She was very long winded in
her responses, and I say that with all love and respect, Hides.
(02:53):
If you're listening, I don't mean that as a bad thing.
I suspect you may not be as long winded. So
we had to split her episode into two because, yeah,
because it was a little bit a little bit lengthy.
But yeah, I just wanted to know, you know, from
an adventure leaders side of things, like what sort of
experiences they've been through and all of that sort of stuff,
(03:13):
more than anything. So yeah, and that's what we did.
I guess it would help though, to start with you
just giving some context to your Kakoda experience. It's just
an overview of your first one, and I know you
got into it for a mental health purposes. But then
also the difference between that and the next two co
(03:34):
codas because in my experience, and there's a long time
since I did my first two or three, but you
learned so much on that second one and then that
third one. You see things you didn't see before, all
of that sort of stuff. So I'd love to sort
of get your take on I guess how your experience
has changed between that first, second, and third trip.
Speaker 4 (03:54):
Yeah. Well, the first one was just with the guys,
a couple of guys that I work with. We did
Dan Hunt from the Mental health movement. He run like
an optimized me program on it, and that was that
was cool, Like, yeah, we did it the traditional way,
I suppose from to Carrie O. Plus I was and
(04:20):
the weather was pretty pretty dry. It was a good
it was. It was a pretty good trip, Like we
didn't compared to doing it like a most recent time
when it was wet the week before, and it was
sort of laughed through our trip as well, we've got
a bit of rain and do it at the opposite direction.
I found it was equally as tough there's no easy
(04:43):
way to do it.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
I'd be interested to know, just ad interesting. When you
do a dry trip, people go, it's actually not that bad,
you know, it's not that hard, and that's what they
prep themselves for. But if you had done a really
wet trip first, I wonder if that would have changed
your initial thoughts or response back one of it doing.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
That again, Yeah, well i'd say that to myself again. No,
it was. I mean I trained a lot prior to it,
so the sort of physically, I think it sort of
you warm into it and it was okay. We did
a few little things off the side to go and
look at stuff, and I was always up for that.
(05:25):
But I think, yeah, it's probably right now, I know what.
It's more a mental thing now because you know what
you're in for and that you can do it. So yeah,
by the way, I guess it's changed. I definitely don't
pack the way I packed the first time. I packed
a lot lighter.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
How would you, Well, you did the mental health one,
and for me, that's a large part of what Coakata is.
It's a personal development program as much as it's anything else.
You get so much out of it. How have you
found like, because from my point of view, how have
you found that helpful with people that you're checking with now?
Because everyone goes to a little challenge or you spend
some time up the back with someone that's going through something.
(06:07):
I know you had Michael on the last one who's
had a significant health condition, and so there's a lot
of mindset stuff happening out there right.
Speaker 4 (06:17):
Oh yeah, absolutely, Like I think from my experience, like
you know, that first first day is pretty tough. You know,
you're up early, depending whether you go to the dawn
service or not if you're doing an Anzac cocada and
you're up early, and then you're flying usually to popping
debt and then you're in the in the back of
the truck for a few hours and that's never comfortable.
(06:39):
It's just a huge day. And then the humidity your
body's acclimatizing, and then that first hill up is I
think that's probably one of the toughest parts of the track,
the initial start. I guess, and you're warming, you overcome,
you know, you grow, you, you become stronger, and you
know that you can do it. I guess as you
warm into the track, I guess what.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
About physical training side of things. And obviously when you
know what to expect, you can train specifically for it, right,
And that's the biggest question we get is around training.
But you also had some significant I wouldn't say health concerns,
what would you say, called an injury or with your
knee where we weren't sure or you might not track
your cooda again. And obviously that change and you did
(07:22):
get to track corkcada, which is pretty cool. How did
you or do you want to talk about that injury
first and then talk about how you changed your training
for this last Coakada.
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Yeah, well I had a scan after last year's one
and I had a tear in me right miniscus and
the well and I had obviously got a bad right now.
I guess that's from yeah, just over time, not young,
(07:52):
but young anymore? Forty one?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Stop it.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Yeah, I had a scan and yeah they st the
surgeon wanted to do major operation and I wasn't really
that keen for it. He wanted to do a osteotomy
where they you know, cut your femur in half, take
bone from your hip and change the angle at your
(08:17):
legs on and put it. Yeah. I wasn't really that
keen on it, So I I just sort of altered
my training, like I stopped hyking as much, I guess,
and did more stuff in the gym with just kettlebells
and bodyweight stuff and more more mobility stuff. And yeah,
(08:40):
it seemed to I found my body held up better
on this last trip than it did the previous year.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah that's good, because there was a while there when
you first you know, were carrying that sort of that
injury it we'll call it, you were. I was like, oh,
as good as this bloke isn't this and as passionate
as it is, because your passion is really important to
me as a teck leader, he might not be able
to do this, which would have been a terrible shame.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, that's and I was genuinely pretty concerned after I
got home because it took so long to come good.
But then after this trip I could have almost went
straight back like it was. You know, I was glad
to see the end, but I could have had a
couple of like within a week or so, it was
(09:24):
it was good again, which is a big difference compared
to the year before.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Yeah, that's awesome. So let's get into some of the
questions that I asked Heidi. So I'll do nine questions
first and then we'll do another episode and back up
the other questions after that. So you got if you
want to be long winded, feel free, like, I don't
want to temper this at all, obviously, because it's different
perspectives to give people different things. So number one, and
(09:49):
I guess we kind of touched on this with Dan Hunt' strip.
But what first inspired you to track the Kikota? What
was that thing where you just made that decision, right,
that's it, I'm going to go and do that.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
Well, years and years ago, I read Peter fitz Simon's book,
The Kakada Book, and I just was originally pretty blown away.
I had never watched a movie or a documentary or
anything on Tokato.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
I was it.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Always had an interest in Australian military history, and just
reading his book sort of started that bug. Well, how
do you say it? Like created that interest I suppose,
And then I dug that sort of more into it
and learned more about it, and I knew it was
a pretty popular thing for Australians to go and do,
(10:39):
and I knew it was a physical challenge, which also
I was interested in, I guess, And then when the
opportunity presented itself back in twenty eighteen, I thought, this
is a good opportunity to actually go and do it,
and sort of went from there very nice.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
And on that first experience, did you ever have the
idea that you'd come back?
Speaker 4 (11:08):
You're there?
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, you just dropped out for a second.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
Yeah, I said. All I heard them was on that
first experience.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Yeah, on that first experience, did you ever have the
idea that you would come back?
Speaker 4 (11:18):
I actually, yeah, I did. I honestly I can say that, Yeah.
I always thought this will be the last time I'm here.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Because the question number two is what keeps bringing you
back to Cakarta year after year? Now that you've done
three and you're you know, you're going to be on
my hundredth trip as well next year, and I'm sure
as we get more and more trips and you get
time away from work and family and all that sort
of stuff, we'll get you on a few more. So
what keeps bringing you back.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Are the stories. I think that the stories of the
young Shans that need to be keep getting told, and
also the experience that it creates and the growth that
it creates for other people. I guess yeah, I like
meeting Like some of the best times I think of
(12:07):
after you've done a big day and everyone's unewhining and
telling their stories under the hearts of find that awesome
to hear and agard to other people. And then also, yeah,
tell them telling the stories of the soldiers.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I'd love to. I'd love to tell that story that
happened on the last trip where you're up telling your
story and you were saying, I think you were saying
that you were were you laying carpet or something? What
we're doing for a job at one stage where you're
on your knees and you're saying, I'm doing this job,
and then I realized that you can't make a living
(12:42):
on your knees, And one of the young girls goes,
are you sure about that? Totally caught us all off guard,
and that's what, doesn't it?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
What? Yeah, No, that was my first job out of school.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
I don't think i've seen you. I don't think i've
seen you speechless before for that split.
Speaker 4 (13:00):
Second, Well, I didn't know how to respond to appropriately, especially.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
When we're the track leaders. Yeah, and that's what like
it brings out the Alaricans of you know. And she's
a young girl that works in the minds and has
been around a bit, and she was just she set
the tone on day one. Okay, she's just going to
have a good fun and have a good time.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's good. There's always a good mix of characters.
I guess.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Question number three is how is your view of Kakoda
change from your first track?
Speaker 4 (13:31):
To me, that's a good question. Wow, it doesn't get
any easier, but I guess, well, I'm not a surprised.
(13:51):
I guess like it changes so often, like every time,
like even so it was a year apart in my
last two tracks, and the track is so often on
a part that's not familiar, whether it's a land why yeah,
a little bit of change, right, yeah, yeah, And you
forget how sometimes so close things act one another when
(14:14):
depending on where you were last time and getting caught
up in the moment or helping others and that sort
of thing, like you sometimes you just got your head down,
watching your feet, and then they're it you at somewhere
significant and you didn't realize how close you were, or
and the people they don't change and they're a life
so kind and helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
That's one of the things that always brings you back,
you know. For me, I often think back to when
you talk about my perspective changing, it's not so much
on the place or the people, but it's just on
even after all these times, the awe of what the
young diggers did there good still because I look at us.
We've got the best boots, and we've got the best backpacks,
and we got trekking poles, we got no one shooting
(14:57):
at us. And it can still be pretty tough when
you get hard weather or that sort of thing, and
you think, man, these you boys did this in nineteen
forty two, when the BA clothing available to us anyway
was basic, food was basic. Being shot at like it
just it really blows my mind every single time.
Speaker 4 (15:15):
That's yeah, that's true. And and I think at times,
if you are doing it tough, you've only got to
have a slight shifting perspective of what those guys went
through and then think, oh, well, regardless, I'm going to
be in a hotel room in six days or five
days or wherever you are up to at the time.
(15:36):
There's light at the end of the time. Those guys
or how it was going to end. They were just
in discomfort constantly.
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Yeah, you know that you're only a few days away
from a pizza and a beer, that's right, Yeah, yeah,
But this kind of ties into the next series of
questions around just the personal development side, I guess, And
the question four is what's one of the biggest lessons
Kakodo has taught you about yourself or about life in general.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
I think I'm still learning them. That's what draws me back.
I guess. It's almost like a when you need a
factory researt you get, you go over and these lessons
just to be grateful for what we have even when
it's tough, And yeah, how lucky we are to be
(16:29):
able to go over and learn these stories about these guys.
That's the Yeah, I don't know, it just makes you
makes you grateful, I guess how lucky we are and
the little things we probably take for granted, and and
how happy they are and they don't know, like I know,
(16:50):
what we like, how we live and the things that
bother us. They're always smiling.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Has it ever been this a question five? It's ever
been a moment on the track that stands out for
you as like, I know, some sort of turning point
or epiphany, or for example, on your first trip, where
you went, this is hard, but I'm going to come back.
Like was there a moment in your mind where just
something clicked for you or was it right from the
beginning you thought I'll do this more than once, which
is unusual, but normally day one or two, struggling a bit,
(17:18):
Day three, starting to get a handle on this. Seeing
day four or five, we're already over halfway and you think,
I'm going to come back and do this again. What
was that sort of turning point or memory for you?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
Probably Brigade Hill. The services at Brigade Hill, I think
always gets me. But just the I think the culture
of the people and just being on the track and
and and the awe of it. You can't I hardly
explain how when you're looking out and how big everything is,
(17:54):
and it's just how beautiful and incredible it is. And
I just think a special place and I can touch
if you do it, if you are doing it tough,
or someone you know you're helping, but you get to
a point and you know, then you see the view
(18:14):
and you hear the stories and it's just a pretty
mind blowing I think, especially for people that have experienced
it before.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
This is a personal question, not from a leader's point
of view, just for you personally. How do you handle
adversity or challenges on the track, so physically, mentally or emotionally,
Like if you're you're missing the kids or the wife,
if you're if your knees playing up and you feel them, well,
do you just feeling a bit crooked one day?
Speaker 4 (18:37):
Like?
Speaker 2 (18:37):
How do you personally deal with that sort of adversity
Because at home we can phone someone, we can go
and see a doctor, we can We've got all that
at our fingertips. But out there, you go, well, I'm
day three, I'm not flying out, so my next option
is to just keep going. How do you personally, or
have you ever had to personally handle any sort of
adversity or challenge while you're out there?
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Depends I guess on the challenge. Like when we stepped
off the bus at hours on the last trip and
the Stumach big bug kicked in. That was an ideal
for me, Jee that was a unexpected to start. I go,
I guess in situations like that, if you've got to
(19:19):
laugh about it otherwise cry.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
That's kind of your personality.
Speaker 4 (19:24):
Too, right, Oh yeah, A lot of it was like, yeah,
I guess in situations like that where there's not much
I could do about it, and I'm just mad as
well dial into it, lean into it.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
It's funny because you see different people handle that adversity differently.
And obviously, when we've been there more than once, we're
a bit more comfortable in the environment, I guess. But
you see when people are there, maybe they've only been
there once, or this is the first time, or maybe
they've come from and I mean this lord you respect,
but like maybe a slightly softer background. They haven't really
dealt with a lot of hardness or or whatever, and
(19:55):
then it's like, oh, you know, this is a big thing,
whereas you and I might shake it off and go
this this is not a massive thing. So I mean
for me, I've always I've had some big things happened
out on the track, but you know, there's nearly one
hundred trips under my belt, but nothing's compared to things
I went through the military, So I always kind of
put it into that context or other hard things I've done.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
Yeah, I think a lot of people, Yeah, are definitely
the same. I can relate to that for sure, because
I've got Yeah, you do, you've been through hard to think,
I think, and until someone experiences they don't need to
recall on those past experiences to get them buy I guess. Well,
(20:37):
you can also think, like to the stories like if
you're really if you're doing it tough, at some point
you're always going to get to the next break and
rest or whatever, and you just got to think, you know,
like think of medicine story and how how and that
kind of puts it in if you've got a bit
of chase or something into perspective, you know, like he
crawled for three weeks, I think. But I think most
(21:05):
people have been through something that you know they can
lean into, they're going to be okay with.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yeah, I agree. Most people are more capable than they
give themselves credit for. And I think that's the great
part of kakoda is it allows them to tap into
that and then you've now got that information forever to
say all I can do tough things.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Absolutely, that's it, And that's the growth that kakoda provides too.
I think when when you ye know I can do this,
I can do that and I think it helps people
with their mindset and their growth quite default, I think
just doing it creates that.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, I love it. This next few questions around connection
to history and culture. So number seven and these are
all for you personally, But what does the military history
of Kakoda mean to you personally? I mean, ah, I'll
(22:08):
tell you why this question interests me because as a soldier,
I tap into the soldier side of me. And even
though I've not experienced anything near what they did in
nineteen forty two, but I have been in war zones
and I have had experiences with a lot better technology
still and a lot better comms, and so I always
tap into that message. But it always interests me from
(22:29):
civilian's points of view. And I know you love military history,
which is obviously a benefit. I get people that come
over and they just want to do the physical side
of the track. But for us, in particularly with you
guys doing the Adventure Leader program, as you know, I
really push you to learn the story and be able
to tell the story and stand up in front of
people and all of that sort of suff and get
uncomfortable and even if it gets challenging, say to you, well,
(22:51):
you know, it was challenging for them in forty two.
We always tap back to that, but it always interesting
me as to what that military history might mean for
you on a personal level. Lot why it means so
much to you.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Well, I think I just don't want the stories to
die ever, Like I want the stories to be told
to my kids and then them and their kids. I
think the history of it is the part that I
don't want to lose. I want the country to be
able to recognize what these guys, these young men did
and how brave they were without you know, a lot
(23:24):
of them didn't have a choice and they and then
and then when they did, they chose to sacrifice at
all to defend Australia. I just don't want the stories
to leave. That's probably the thing for me. And I
found out recently that I didn't know that there's people
in my family that served and didn't come home from
(23:51):
Kingy and places like that. So and this is all
new to me, which is pretty pretty crazy as well.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
It is crazy. I was listening to this is off
topic of this, I guess, but it's linked. I was
listening to a podcast recently that Chris Williams, and then
he was saying that you know, in three generations will
be forgotten. Most people won't even remember your name. And
you think, nah, that's not three generations, that's like my
great grandkids. But then it's true when you think about
the fact that we've got great like I've got two
(24:19):
great grandfathers that both fought in the First World War,
but i don't know much about them, and I've done
a little bit of research. Now at the time, they
were doing something huge for our country. But you know,
you're largely three generations on, you're forgotten, which is a highlight,
and it's something Kakoda. I'm like you, I want to
keep the story alive. That's why I elected to start
doing the Adventure Leaders program because I knew I can't
(24:42):
do this forever. I'm in my fifties now. I still
feel good, but there has to be an end date
and I've got to keep passing on these skills, but
also the stories because all the diggers I've met who
fought over there have all passed on. And so you know,
now I'm at being in my fifties and the blokes
that I was learning offering their seventies, like, we've got
to pass these stories now. Otherwise, like my great grandfathers,
(25:03):
they're just a name somewhere. Otherwise I've got his medals
or one of their medals, but otherwise they're largely forgotten.
And I never want these guys to be forgotten. I
guess at the end of the day, you and I
and I mean this with no disrespect. We're just ordinary blokes.
So of course we're going to be forgotten in generations,
but I don't want that for the guys at forty.
So I one hundred percent agree with that. Yeah, question
(25:28):
number eight, and this is more of a track leading one,
I guess now, and you know I put a big
onus on this, but it's how do you help others
connect with the story of Kokada while they're tracking? So
that's I like that question purely because you know you
are a track leader and you're something that I've identified
that could be really good at this. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
I think when you get individual like it doesn't have
to be at Consrach or is your other battlefield or anything.
Just as you're on the track and when you get
time with different individuals, it gives you opportunity to chat,
talk to each other, tell each other a bit about
each other and then you know you can go. They
(26:06):
generally as start asking questions just through I guess, being curious,
and that gives you an opportunity to talk more about
certain areas along the track and the people. And I
find that generally happens whilst you're out there.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
It gets you better at telling the story too, because
I remember you and I were talking about the struggle
of videoing yourself and all of that, and I said
to you, don't try and read the story. Imagine you're
just telling your mates and you're in the smoko over
the smoko table or the brewer room and you're like, yeah,
I tell that story all the time, and people get excited.
Well that's how you need to tell the story. Well,
when you're walking and talking, that's how you tell the
(26:45):
story because you're just in a conversation. So I think
it the more we're there and the more we talk
about it, the better the story becomes, because we become
better storytellers, and the better we are as storytellers, the
better we keep this whole story alive. So that's that's
the link for me I put.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
And I find it definitely like when I've got all
that information, I know the story, it's being scripted. It's
not comfortable for me talking about it and just talking
about what I know and what I've learned and just
talking in the general conversations so much easier.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, But the last question in this series is what
do you think trekkers should know before they come to
understand Ka Coda beyond the physical challenge? So you know,
if you were to give people any tips on teking
Ka Coda outside of the physical, what else do you
think they should know? But it about the history, about
the country, about anything that is not just the physical
(27:42):
side of you. There's some ups and downs, and they're
going to be hard, and you could get some rain
and it could get slippery. But outside of that in
the physical preparation, what do you think people should know
about the country? About maybe about the history or other people.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Ah, just how lovely they are and kind and happy.
Theyways struck with their personalities and getting like they're shy,
but they eventually they open up and they're lovely, lovely people,
especially out on the track. And then yeah, just to
(28:16):
immerse yourself, like ask questions and learn, like that's part
of the experience.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, I love that. Let's go into some I'll add
some of the leadership questions from because we're moving quite
nicely through these. What advice would you give to someone
preparing for their first Kakoda trick I've never been before.
They say to you, hey, I'm checking Kakoda in a
couple of months time. They know that you've been there
(28:45):
a few times. What sort of advice you've probably had
this question? What sort of advice do you give them?
Speaker 4 (28:51):
The first thing I'll say is, regardless of your physical fitness,
I'd recommend getting a personal porter that's just purely just
so for the experience and to getting closer to someone
that lives on the track. I think that's one that
i'd definite highly recommend, just because of the connection that
you're going to build with them, and to train lots
(29:17):
of hills.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
And if you can do it. If you think you're
doing enough hills, do more.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Yeah, yeah, we'll take the stairs like yeah. Just I
guess be consistent. You don't need to be like going
berserk because you're just going to walk into it. Your
body will acquimatize. But if you're consistent with your training,
I guess twelve weeks out or even longer, if you
can just you'll then the more you do prior, the
(29:45):
more you'll really enjoy the experience.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
What's one thing that you think everyone should experience on
the track, What's something that you think maybe people miss
out on? And I'll give you mind, like what did
a guy years ago that just didn't physically train enough.
And so when we would get to each village or
anytime we sat down, he wouldn't move. And so back
then there was one of the old Fuzzy wuzz he's
still alive in the diary, and we walked down into
(30:09):
the village and see him. And at this point was like, no,
I'm not going to see him. I'm too tired. And
I think, man, you're missing out on the good stuff
if you don't have the energy to go and do
some little side walks or walk through the villages or
talk to people or and so we missed all of
those little experiences because he just did what he had
to do to get through. He looked at his feet
all day whenever he sat down. He was the last
one to sit down, obviously, but it was also the
(30:31):
last one to get up. Everything was a real effort.
And I just said to myself, like if you've just
done a bit more training. I'm sure this would have
been more enjoyable. But from your experience, what do you
think everyone should go out of their way to experience
while they're.
Speaker 4 (30:43):
There the locals, like the women and kids in the villagers,
go on to have a chat to him, you know,
buy some fruit, get a warm chair of drink with
the local community. But I agree with like what you
(31:05):
just said, all those little things on the side, you know,
into the little museums or up to where there was
a you know, a burial or something something off to
the side, that if you do the work, you have
the energy and your body feels good enough to go
and and do those little things. You're not rolling in
(31:26):
absolutely cooked, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Yeah, what does it mean to you to be a
leader on Kokoda? Not just the logistics of all right,
this is how I run a trip, but emotionally culturally,
you know, what's the sort of deeper thing. Because a
lot of people track Coakoda and more than once you'll
have people track it, but they don't want to lead.
You're you've purposely gone out of your way to connect
(31:49):
with me because you want to lead. And that was
a thing, right, and you don't need to. You've got
a very good job, You've got a very good stayle Hanley,
family life at home. You don't need to go and
do this. So what is it that drives you to
want to be an adventure leader?
Speaker 4 (32:07):
Yeah? The stories and the opportunity to meet new people
and and get them to experience it, the personal growth
that you get from it. And I just even just
having the I guess me going over there, I still
get so much out of it for myself. Yeah, it's
(32:34):
a really good question. It's like I'm drawn to the place.
I guess I never from the first time. I always
thought I'd come back. I didn't know in what capacity,
but I always thought I'd be coming back.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
It's interesting because in Africa, which I do a bit
as well, that they have a thing that they call
the African itch, which is, once you've been to Africa,
you always want to come back. And I definitely noticed
the same thing in PNG when people have been there
and have experienced it outside of just the centers of
Port Moresby or the high unemployment, and you know, there
(33:10):
can be some violence and all that sort of stuff,
but when they get out to the villagers and experience
of real people. You just want to go back. It's
such a powerful drawback. So, yeah, they caught the African
nich in Africa, and I guess you know we caught
the PNGs. You know, you just want to go back there.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Yeah, I think like, like I love going on the
adventures and getting out of my comfort zone, I suppose,
And I think I want that to my kids too,
Like I love for the opportunity one day as they
get older, to be able to experience that with them
and show them cultures and how happy these people are
(33:47):
with what they have. And I think it's a great
thing for youth development too, like to you know, young
young people to go over there and experience it. I
think that's it's a really good thing to learn the
stories and meet the people and experience the culture.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yeah. I was just talking to our boys.
Speaker 4 (34:08):
You know.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Millie's boys are ten and eleven and obviously mum being
from P ANDG, but they've not been there and so
we're looking at take them back there soonish and the
ten year old. You know, they're typical kids. They're very sporty,
good athletes, but they're also love their devices and like
if there's if Wi Fi is down. It's the biggest
s think in the world, like the Wi Fi's lagging,
what's going on? And I was just explaining how you know,
(34:30):
they don't have anything in the villages of Kakoda, but
they have everything. And they really weren't struggling to get
their heads around that. And I said, look, there's no
They said, we want to go and said, I know,
there's no electricity. Like the other day, we were going
somewhere in the car and they wanted to bring their iPads.
I said no. They said, why not, it's because you
don't need them, Like we're going to talk to each other.
We're going to go in and have lunch and they'll
both sit on their iPads and if you let them, right,
(34:53):
So I just said no. I said, well you're not
go about it in the iPad? Why not? Well there's
no electricity, there's no connection. Well what do you mean
no electricity? That's pretty bad. And I said no, it's
not there. But they've got all the water that they need,
they grow all the own food. Everyone's got a house.
They live in literally grass, some of them still with
dirt floors. They were really struggling to get their heads
around that. So I can't wait to take them back
(35:14):
to experience that.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Yeah, that's funny. Well, this morning, while the kids were
getting read for school, I was we were talking about
like they often asked me about, you know, cacada and
different questions, and this morning somehow come up. I can't
remember how, but they I was talking to them about
the fresh fruit that you buy on the track and
you know, talking to the women in the village, you know.
(35:37):
So we come into one village and we bought a
pineapple and the boys cut it up for us, and
I said, you've never tasted fruit, so you've tasted village fruit.
I said, it's unbelievable. And then cla Claio said, oh,
could you make a smoothie? I said, mate, you just
eat it delicious. I guess then I thought of his
well maybe you could if you had like a water
(35:57):
and petal or something that I said, maybe they just
drink water and they eat the fresh fruit. It's delicious.
There's no smoothies, mate. That was pretty funny.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
I'm actually so I'm going to get credit tomorrow. I
get back for five days and then I go again.
And on that second trip, Heidi's coming and she's bringing
her twelve year old son. So it's the first time
you bought one of her sons. And so I'm thinking
what I might do is do a podcast out there
where every day I just do a three to five
interview with each of them away from each other day
(36:29):
so I get her perspective of Now this would be
her tenth trek or ninth track, but trekking with her son,
that's pretty cool, and I'm trecked with my daughter, so
I know what that's like. So I'd love to get
her spin on it, and then get his spin on
it as well, because it's his first time, and hopefully
if that goes or I can mold it all together
into one pretty cool podcast. I'm looking forward to that.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
Yeah, But I'll give you a couple more and then
I'll let you go. I know you don't probably love
being under the pump with these questions and making you think,
but I love it because even when there's that silence
and I'm trying to think of an answer, I love
that because that's just real and authentic and so that
you know, for me, it's sort of a thing. But
this question to do editing, no no edit, bro we
(37:09):
get the science will staying there. I'll call this the
thinking man of Kakoda. You're this thinking time. You know
the old game chows to your probably not old enough
to remember the game shows where they play the thinking
music while someone makes a decision. I've got to find
some of that thinking music.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
I think the table run out before this.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Question is I guess related to work and stuff as well.
But how is leading people on Kakoda shaped your own
leadership style or your own leadership philosophy.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
I don't think it's changed that much. I just tend
to be myself not I don't think I carry you
like any like like I think. I don't know. I
don't know if I've never really thought of myself as
a leader in that sense. I just try and look
after everybody, making sure that everyone's huntable and enjoyed himself.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
See, for me, whilst I spent time in the military,
which was a really different leadership style, Like it was
very brutal. It's we got a job to get done,
and everyone understood that that they were in the military, right,
So you didn't have to think about people's emotions or
all of that sort of stuff. It was just what
we would call a robust conversation policy. If you did
something shit, they'll just say mate that with shit, and
(38:35):
you go, okay, what needs to improve? And you never
took it personally. It was like you never thought either
he doesn't like me or she doesn't like me. It
was just, hey, I just that wasn't good enough, that
wasn't the standard, and we're not going to Out of
the military, I had to learn you can't do that.
Just not everyone likes that blunt style, and I can
still be blunt. And I warned people when they work
for me that I am going to give you really
(38:55):
honest feedback because that's the best way it works for me.
But I have to explain that it's not personal. I
definitely want you to grow. If I didn't want you
to be here, you wouldn't be here. But one thing
I took out of the military and I still use
on Kokoda and it's come up regularly for me, is
being the calm in the chaos. It doesn't matter what's happening,
how bad the weather is. If someone's really lagging behind
(39:16):
and I'm thinking that's going to slow us down. I
try not to let the trekkers themselves feel that because
they've got enough on their plate, and as leaders, our
job is just to be the calm in the chaos,
because in their minds, there's already a lot of chaos,
you know, and if they see us panicking, they think, oh,
he might know more than I know, so there might
be something worth panicking about. So I've definitely had to
adjust my leadership style. But I could see how if
(39:38):
you ever step into leadership roles anywhere for people listening
out there, or if you're already in one, it will
show you different ways of leading. Because I always watch
how Killer leads his boys, and it's a real quiet style.
He's sort of always joking and laughing, but if he's
ever occasionally you'll hear him snap if something very rare,
but if something needs to be done and they all
jump because they okay, well he's pretty serious now. And so,
(40:02):
whereas I've listened to leaders in the civilian wor can't
be friends with your team because then they'll they'll take
the piss so you'll be too friendly. Well maybe, but
if you've got the right leadership style, they should also
know when you're being a bit more serious. I love
analyzing it from the point of view watching Killer and
or watching sometimes we get some alpha personalities and I
watch them try and sort of have control and lead,
(40:24):
which obviously you know that's fine as long as they're
not doing anything that's affecting other trackers, and that's when
we'll step in. But yeah, I've learned a lot in
my leadership style, and I do play leadership roles. Obviously,
I think, yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
You would be able to see what like what my
the way I've never really thought about analyzed my own.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
Style.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
I think, yeah, I'll watch you and then you'd probably
see what your form EU opinion of how I do
it just by watching me, I.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
Guess, well, my take from the outside, Obviously, you're still
learning the leading and I can see you actively leading
into that, which I love, Like you're not waiting for
me to solve problems or you're just someone that gets
out and about. But you're really good at communicating, like
you seem to just pick up people's personalities and be able.
You're one of those blokes that can literally connect with everyone.
(41:18):
You're quite self deprecating, as in you'll make a lot
of jokes about yourself, and that puts people at ease
because they Okay, like you know, which I think is
a really nice trait to have. But also you are
very calm. You have a nice calm leadership style, so
you're not someone that's like I can be a bit
stern at times, but I've been doing this a long
time and I know when I need to do that.
(41:39):
But yeah, I think you've got a really good, real
ousie sort of Alarican capacity to just connect with people,
if you if you want my honest sort of thoughts
on your on your leadership style.
Speaker 4 (41:50):
Yeah, I think that comes me up pretty pretty well mate.
Speaker 2 (41:54):
As a final question, just so that I can stop
harassing you, what super comfortable? What impact do you hope
that each track has on the people who join you?
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Oh, like life change, not life changing in the sense
that they and mind like something that they can take
with them forever that they can look back on, whether
they come back again, go back to and experience Kakota again,
the experience that they can remember for the rest of
their life, like I went there, I learned about this
(42:34):
and the stories that they can tell others about how
amazing it is and the experience that they had and
the personal growth that they still that they got from it.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah, I like that. I say life changing all the time,
and I checked myself because I think, oh, that's a
pretty big claim. But I'm more comforts I'm more comfortable
that now than I've ever been, though, because I've just
seen too many times where it's legitimately changed people's perspectives
or outlooks or even the introspective at themselves. I've heard
(43:07):
it too many times. I've witnessed it too many times,
and so I just say to Bill, this is life changing.
I've got a bloke coming on a trip so that
he's bringing his son, who's an adult son, and he said,
you know, he's having a few struggles and this is
why I wanted to bring him, and I don't expect
you to perform any magic or anything. And I just
pulled him much straight away and said, look, I think
you might be surprised. I said, I genuinely believe this
(43:29):
trick to be life changing for people. Like anything, you
have to allow it to be life changing. But most
people who are willing to commit the time, the physical energy,
the money to come and do something like this, I
think they're already open to that. So they're coming with
that sort of mindset but I legitimately am comfortable with
life changing these days. And it's a big, big call.
But I watched people spend thousands and thousands of dollars
(43:51):
on personal development. I've got a friend that goes to
Tony Robins every year. He comes to Australia for one week,
five days. And I'm not bagging Tony Robinson any stretch.
I like his stuff. But she goes, we're in the
army together, we're medics, and so she spends five thousand
dollars for a week. There's five thousand people in that event,
so it's a big run event. So you know, if
you're doing some quick quick maths on that, you're talking
(44:14):
about some pretty big dollars that he's bringing in through that.
It's twenty five million dollar a week for him, and
then he's got a lot of staff and so on.
But you're one of five thousand people. And she says
to me, it's life changing. I've just you come out
of there was so much energy and that I've watched
her and nothing's really changed, and of what And I
mean that with audue respect. I love her, but I
just said, you know, I haven't really seen that much change,
(44:35):
and so I've explained to you what the change is.
She goes, well, all right, nothing really, but that's why
I go back. When I go back, I feel it
again and I go like, man, you're spending well. Every
third time she goes, she gets a freebie, or she
can bring a ticket or bring someone else. But in
the time I've known her, she's probably spent thirty forty
grand going to these things, but nothing's actually changed. Whereas
(44:57):
Kakoda genuinely touches you at some level, I've made I've
been doing this for so long. I went through a
divorce many years ago, in twenty ten, In twos eleven,
I still kept checking Kakoda with people. I think it
was part of my therapy. I think it actually helped me.
That's a big claim, but you know, I've been through
a lot of stuff that it's been there and helped before,
So it's a really big claim. But I'm you'd be
(45:18):
hard pressed to convince me otherwise I'm going to stand behind.
I'm comfortable with it these days. Yeah, I think, yeah,
I'm made to finish off. I've got ten rapid fire questions.
So the idea is to try and these are a
bit deeper than they probably should be. For rapid Fire,
they're not just yes no answers, but just the first
sort of answer or thought that comes off the top
of your head. For these ten. To finish off the
(45:40):
first one, what's the number one thing people underestimate about
kakoda ah.
Speaker 4 (45:55):
Emotion? Yeah, future, Yeah, so.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
Many people expect the physical right, they don't think about
the emotional. Well, that's good. For the second question, what's
the most emotional moment you've witnessed on the track?
Speaker 4 (46:11):
I've witnessed or experienced myself? Because for me Brigade Hill service. Yeah. Oh,
very emotional. But I think Michael finishing with the group
going through first on that last trip was pretty emotional.
Speaker 2 (46:34):
Yeah, that was pretty cool. I'm going to do a
podcast with him so that I'll give people more context
around around an answer to you, so I won't give
away too much yep. Question three, how do you handle
someone who wants to quit halfway through? Have you had
that experience yet?
Speaker 4 (46:53):
Not? No, I'm not like so that toys at the
cot and I want to get me out of you.
Speaker 2 (46:58):
No, I have had that experience. So for me it's
I don't do that easily. It's typically about trying to
talk them through it, you know, try and get another
day out of them, and if you can push on
another day, I can go okay, I'm going to be
okay here. But there has been one or two where
they've just refused, and on day one or day two
they go, this is not for me. You go okay, well,
I guess that's what it is. But I'll always try
(47:19):
and push them through another day because when they can
get to another day, they'll go, Okay, maybe I can
do more.
Speaker 4 (47:24):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think yeah, just get not fully
get in their head, but just positive reassurance, tell them
that you know you're capable of more than what you
probably think, and just keep chipping away and then break
it down like too smaller sections.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
I guess question four because he's a rapid fire. What's
the one item every treker forgets but absolutely needs enough?
Every treker would forget something, But what's something you regularly
see people forget that they probably should bring?
Speaker 4 (47:58):
Rock tape?
Speaker 2 (48:02):
How good is it?
Speaker 5 (48:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (48:05):
Save me on the last last one together?
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Makes you surprised how many people turn up without tape?
And then next thing only strap and knees and it
takes so much tape you think, did you bring your
tape with your help us? You know, I like that.
How do you mentally prepare you personally for each crossing?
Now that you've done more than one, you know what's
in store if you're not feeling one hundred percent whatever,
how do you Is there anything you go through to
mentally prepare?
Speaker 4 (48:33):
No, don't get don't have the last time too? I
think really got four kids, four kids between twelve and.
Speaker 2 (48:39):
Seven, flat out, you're just looking forward to the holiday.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
Yeah, yeah, a tent amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
Question six. What does the spirit of Kakoona mean to
you personally? Oh, movie, I'll tell your mine. Mine's one
of the pillars at issue. Rather, it makes you to me,
that is what old spirit of Cado would be. It's
like leaning on the people around you, helping the person
(49:08):
next to you, because when you make it about something
bigger than you, And that's a good tip for anyone
that's over there and you're having a bit of a struggle,
start looking at other people and helping other people and
and you know, hey, you travel a mate, and when
you start focusing on other people, you hours go and
you realize, oh, I haven't really thought about how I
might be struggling a little bit. And that's where I
think makeship is really powerful for them and for you.
Speaker 4 (49:31):
Yeah, one hundred percent matship. That's I Yeah, that's a
huge one. I think that's a great answer. And then
you've got all the other the sacrifice and all those things.
I often when you're when you're helping others, it's sort
of you don't you don't think about yourself. You're not
(49:53):
worried about what, oh that's we need hur and or
miss feet, report rights discussing because you don't as in
a position that I was in, and you're just too
concerned making sure that they're there.
Speaker 2 (50:03):
Okay, what's your favorite village or section of the track?
And why.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
A fogye to Brigade Hill probably, Yeah, a fog really
is pretty cool on a love Mission ridge and looking
back at a fogie and then and you know you're
going to Brigade Hill for the service.
Speaker 2 (50:26):
Yeah, and people have done a fair bit of the
track by then too, so it's a good time to
sort of do that service because they're feeling it a bit.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
You know, they're feeling it a bit, but they're also
I think a lot of the time they've they've got
their legs and there's you know, there's a confidence.
Speaker 2 (50:41):
Yeah. Question eight is what's the toughest day on the
track for you? Physically or emotionally? Do you think if
someone said, hey, what's the toughest day? I get asked
this question a lot, and it's a hard one to answer.
This very individual, But for you, what would be the
toughest day physically or emotionally.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
Emotionally? I think, well, and it depends in the direction
you're going. I guess h so on the previous on
the one we just did, going back to that that
going that direction towards Brigade Hill and finishing there and
then doing the service that was that was that was
a big day uphill and then go in the other direction.
(51:21):
For me would be day one just it's just exhausting
and then humidity, and then the first climb and you know,
there's so much self doubt usually and and and you
know you're anxious, Oh this is so hard, and then
you get and then you're halfway through day two, you
you you get your legs and yeah, you can do it.
(51:43):
I think that's big. Big be patient, it's gonna it's
you're gonna you know, have a great experience. So I
think day one for most people that haven't done it before,
I think it's a tough day.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
Question. The last question, what would you say to someone
who's scared that they can't do it? So a lot
of people listen to this podcast because they're trying. They
want to do it. Obviously, why would you keep listening
if you didn't want to do it? Obviously we get
a lot of people who've done it, and that's why
they're listening for memories. But you want to track a coder.
You're listening to this and maybe it scares you more.
So what advice would you give to someone that says, well,
(52:17):
I don't think I can do that?
Speaker 4 (52:21):
Yes, again, absolutely you can. I think the limitations are
only placed on themselves. They absolutely can and they will.
They just need to be patient and do some work prior,
to do some exercise prior.
Speaker 2 (52:41):
Yeah, as you know it in your life trip, you
know you experienced someone with Parkinson's. I've had amputees, single
and double leg, all sorts of things, young and old
and everyone in between. And sometimes the people have struggled
the most have been the people that you wouldn't pick,
you know, in their thirties fit healthy, but something goes wrong,
they get a bit of a diarrhea or a cold,
(53:03):
or a knee injury or or something happens. And then
I've seen people in their sixties and seventies just charge
on through these doing what they're doing. I'm going to
get through it anyway. So yeah, it's anyone can can
do it. It's just going to come down to how
much you want to do it and how much you're
going to be willing to push through. And for those
people who think about doing who are scared, I just
say do the training. Get as much training in as
(53:25):
you can without overtraining, but because you get older, but
do as much training as you can to prepare yourself
and then just give it a crack.
Speaker 4 (53:32):
Yeah, and you'll get through it, you and you'll love it,
and it'll be over. That's the thing too. People think
it's going to drag out and you know it's eight
days or whatnot, and say a lot. But it's over
and you're like, oh my god, that went so fast.
Speaker 2 (53:46):
Yeah that's such common feedback, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (53:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah, all right, mate, your three trips in. We'll do
our next podcast when you hit number ten, I reckon,
what do you reckon?
Speaker 4 (53:57):
Yeah? I can breathe again now.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
No pressure, but no pressure. That good. I really enjoyed
putting on the spot to be honest and just getting
people's raw sort of opinion on things, and I want
to start years ago. I used to do some of
the early episodes out on the track, and I want
to start getting back to that too, just interviewing people
out there and editing it all together when I get home,
and just seeing how they feel day by day as
(54:25):
opposed to trying to memorize it all. So maybe I'll
get you on one of those one day where you
just easily give me two to three minutes at the
end of the day.
Speaker 4 (54:32):
Yeah. Cool. Well, when you get to talk to Michael,
I won't spoil it, but make sure you talking to
talk to him about coming down off Mount Bellamy in
the night. That was incredible experience.
Speaker 2 (54:43):
Heal, Yeah, I'll definitely.
Speaker 4 (54:46):
The boys worked together and with him and just amazing.
Speaker 2 (54:51):
Looking forward to it.
Speaker 6 (54:54):
Right, Let's see s racing bond damvisis.
Speaker 3 (55:18):
So the bond between Ossie's and the people of Papu
and New Guinea was forged in war and it endures
in peace. We've felt that friendliness, that special connection in
the comforting presence of our porters and in every small
community along the Kakoda Track.
Speaker 5 (55:37):
Who Okay, guys, thanks for tuning in.
Speaker 2 (55:57):
It would be awesome if you'd share this with anyone
you know that's going to the Kakoda Track or that's
been and has a keen interest in the track. It's
people and those that choose to track it. The pillars
of Isshaba say, courage, endurance, makeshif and sacrifice great words
to live by, and this podcast will offer makeshift and
a place for those that live and love the Kakoda
Track experience Until next episode, live a life that inspires
(56:20):
you and those around you.
Speaker 5 (56:21):
And remember to take time out to think about what's
really important, what's really important, What's really important?
Speaker 1 (56:28):
Thanks fellow stack to the Kakoda Track Podcast. To get
in touch or stay up to date, go to Kakoda
Track Podcast on Facebook or email Glen at Adventure Professionals
dot com dot a here. Don't forget to subscribe and share.
Speaker 2 (56:42):
With your friends.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
Let's keep the spirit at the stories of Kakoda at
the P and G People alive
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