May 31, 2024 • 35 mins
Today I am sharing some interviews with myself, Aiden Taylor and Bill James from the 4BC radio station in Brisbane. I really hope you enjoy these because there are some really valuable conversations here.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apodjay Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This podcast is proudly brought to you by Adventure Professionals
www dot Adventure Professionals dot com dot au.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
For me, Mission Ridge and Brigade Hill. The whole Kakoda campaign.
More people need to know about it. I know everyone
knows someone who's trek Kokoda, but to actually understand the
stories of what these young guys did, it's harrowing what
they went through.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
They were staunched to the end against odds uncounted and
they fell with their faces to the.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Welcome to the Kakoda Track Podcast, hosted by former solject
Glen Asa. This is the place to hear stories from
those who've trecked Kakoda and gained tips of knowledge about
what to expect on the track, or to relive your
own amazing experiences. The Kakoda Track Podcast keeping the spirit
of Kakoda alive.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Hey Roun Glen Asa here with the Kakoda Track Podcast,
doing something a little bit different this week now. A
couple of weeks ago, I actually shared an episode with
the young producer from four BC, which is a radio
station up in Queensland here by the name of Aidan Taylor.
Aidan's a great young man, I really enjoyed our chat,
very articulate but also very passionate about keeping Australia's military
(01:29):
history alive.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
Which I love.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Now he also did some talks on four BC, so
I've gone back through and found a couple of those.
Now there's three things I'm going to share with you today.
One is an interview I actually did with the Morning Show,
and I did it on Anzac Day, So this phone
call was about three point thirty four o'clock in the morning.
To their credit, they came in very early and did
(01:52):
a recording with me where I'm just talking about some
things around Kakoda. Then there's an interview that Aidan himself
did with Sophie Formica where he's talking about his experience.
And then whilst on Dakota, I always talk about the
importance of part of our history where a couple of
key figures, John Rennie and Bill James actually found where
(02:15):
significant battle sites were so Ishiava Brigade Hill, Danikie. A
lot of these places were lost through the seventies and
eighties and into the nineties, and then these guys actually
went out and spent their own time, their own money,
brought in veterans who had fought on the track, and
without them having done that, we would not be sure
today where Isharava actually is, and that memorial wouldn't be there.
(02:39):
We wouldn't be sure where Brigade Hill actually was, and
we wouldn't be sure where places like Danikie were. These
are the places where the very lives of our young
men were taken, and yet we had forgotten about these places.
So because of John Renni and Bill James, that was
able to be found and we have what we have now.
The memorial was actually built and designed by veterans who
(03:03):
fought on Kakoda. Courage, endurance, Mate, you've been sacrifice. Those
words came from those veterans, and I think that's really powerful.
So the third interview is actually with Bill James himself
talking about that process, and I really want to share these,
So I'm going to kick off with the first one,
which is an interview that I did on Anzac Day
(03:24):
with the Morning crew from four BC.
Speaker 6 (03:30):
Well, as we know, our Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi is
walking the Kokoda trail in Papua New Guinea and we've
got someone who knows all about that. He's a mindset
coach and trainer Glenn az Our. Good morning, Hey team,
how are we pretty good? Thanks Glenn, Glenn, you're there
at the moment. How many times have you done the trail?
Speaker 5 (03:54):
I've literally just completed my ninetieth crossing of the track.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
All right.
Speaker 8 (03:59):
We've got to ask why.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
I've spent so many years in the military full time,
and so I guess it's just a part of my
history trying to pack on a book and to code
in particular such military significance. It's this physical, emotional journey
that I just absolutely love. So I've been doing it
for a bit out of twenty years now. So I
started when I was in the Army, but I've been
doing it ever since I got out in the last
(04:22):
thirteen as a full time job.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
For a person who's never done the track, what's it like?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Is it really that tough?
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Yeah? It is. I think it's one of the toughest
things that most people do. You know. I've taken my
daughter that first did it when she was eight years
of age. I've taken a seventy nine year old maybe
across the track. And I've taken single and double amputees
in a military veterans program I've run and everyone in between.
But it is tough. It's something that you absolutely must
(04:50):
prepare for. And the people in my experiences struggle are
the ones who underestimate it, who just think, oh, I
had to make they did it, and I was as
fires him or her, And you know, you've really got
to respect what it is you're going to do over there.
It's tough.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
When you say physically prepare and also prepared. What are
you talking about here, like, I mean, are we talking
about boot camps for six or seven weeks beforehand and
psychology training or is it a bit less strenuous than that.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
It's probably less strenuous but longer. So I'll normally tell
people that it's a minimum of a twelve week commitment.
I asked to do a minimum of three sessions a week,
depending where their fitness was. Out of course, if I'm
coming straight out of an office for the last ten, fifteen,
twenty years and I'm not doing a lot physically, yeah
i might need to do a bit more. But for
most people, I've put them through one to two gymner
(05:39):
sessions a week just working on the musculatus. So I've
got the supporting structure and then the biggest thing is
get a backpack on, get some weight in it and
get out walking. Now you have the option on Kokoa
to hire locals that will help carry your bag and stuff,
which some people definitely need. But if you carry all
your own gear and carry everything you need, you're carrying
about twenty kilos in the back and for a lot
(06:01):
of people that haven't had and done that, and so
you definitely definitely have to prepare for that two to
three hour bushwalks. You know, for me being Brisbane based,
we're always out around Mount Hoop on weekends when I'm
not on the trail itself, and it's just about i say,
getting kays on your legs more than anything else.
Speaker 8 (06:19):
All Right, the Prime Minister, he's doing it. How much
work could he have done?
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Well, to be honest, he's not doing the whole trail,
so I guess he probably can get away not quite
as much work. And you know, he looks pretty fit.
So he's going from Takoda village up to Ischerata, which
is a pretty strenuous couple of days. There's a significant
battle happened there. There's a significant piece of our history
(06:46):
that he's been there to represent, which is pretty good.
He's the first prime minister to have done it. Kevin
Rudd did do it back in six before he was
a prime minister. He did the whole trail, but Albaniz
he's doing that just that first bit with the PG promner.
It's huge news over here. There's people of the whole
country's talking about it. It's actually really really good for
the local people, I think, to see both of those
(07:08):
guys out there representing it. But he still definitely would
have had to do some work to make you he
is ready for him.
Speaker 9 (07:13):
What happens on Antac Day on the track?
Speaker 10 (07:15):
Do people pause?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Do they have their moment in silence? Is there any commemoration?
Speaker 5 (07:22):
Yeah, there's definitely. There's a few different services at different
places along. So there's one at Israeba Battlefield and there's
one a Brigadon Hill, which are the two most significant
battle points where the Australians fought against the Japanese. There
were both battles that we were pushed back from but
ultimately set us up to victory labor and so that
we had two massive services there. And then at the
(07:42):
Mount of War Semmetery in Port Moresby, there's a huge
one as well. That's the biggest Australian war graves in
war cemetery in the world, and it's the biggest in
the Southern Hemisphere. And over four thousand Australians lay very
there from this campaign and campaign to Urns area, and
so people will either finish the trial and go to
the man will start with the service and then go
(08:04):
back on the trail, and then they'll have the two
on the trail itself as well.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
Well, Glen, we hear you calling it the Kokoda trail.
We hear it called the Kokoda trail and the Kokoda Track.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
What is it?
Speaker 5 (08:17):
That's a great question. It's officially the Cocoa Trail, and
that's in official war history. But on the trail itself
it's written as track on one side of all monuments
and trail on the other. And the history behind that
is that the Aussies diggers and they fought here, and
I've met quite a few of them when they were
still around, they all referred to it as the track. However,
(08:37):
the Americans were in control of this battle from Brisbane,
they weren't on the trail itself, and they don't really
use the word track. So it officially went into our
war history as a trail, and a lot of the
biggest refused to call it that and still caught it
track and so it causes a lot of contention. And
so what they've done is I've just used both but
officially this trail.
Speaker 8 (08:56):
Now we do have to ask you. You've got one
of our former producers here, current Drive Time producer, colleague
Aiden is with you. How's he going.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
He's a cracking young bloke. He's done really well. You know,
he's just such an upbef character. He's always got a
big smile and he's just fit of buggery and he
just has absolutely immersed himself fully in the experience. He's
been a really good young bloke on the trailers.
Speaker 8 (09:22):
Yeah, just don't get into a conversation about Liverpool because
it's so boring.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
He's got a few big, deep conversations and that's why I've.
Speaker 9 (09:32):
Avoided Glen us.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
We thank you so much for taking the time to
talk to us today.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
No way, So so you go.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
That was my little chat with the morning crew from
four BC, And now I'm going to roll straight into
Aiden talking directly with one of his colleagues, Sophie for Mica.
Speaker 11 (09:55):
Today, of course Anzac dayrion of those who have served,
those who are serving, and I'm sure that you've already
heard many individual stories.
Speaker 10 (10:02):
We know.
Speaker 11 (10:02):
The Prime Minister also started his day with a special
dawn service in Papua New Guinea. He made history becoming
the first sitting Prime minister to complete a section of
the Kokoda track in Papua New Guinea. And on that
track with him today was four BC's very own one
of our producers, Aidan Taylor, who went over to Papua
(10:24):
New Guinea to walk Kakoda and he finished as well
with a dawn service this morning. He's joining us now
on four BC afternoons from PMNG.
Speaker 8 (10:32):
How are you, Aiden, good?
Speaker 7 (10:33):
Thanks Sophie.
Speaker 12 (10:34):
Pleasure to be with you on this most sacred of
days in the Australian calendar, the one hundred and ninth
anniversary of the ANZACs and the eighty second anniversary of
that Kokota campaign. And what an honor it's been to
be able to walk the track and be it the
Vermina War Cemetery today for the dawn service.
Speaker 11 (10:51):
Well, Aiden, can you take us back to why it
is you decided that you wanted to do it this
is your first time. Was it something you've always wanted
to fulfill?
Speaker 7 (11:01):
Yeah, exactly, It's something I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 12 (11:03):
In fact, it's been a dream of my since at
least I would have been at least ten years old
when I first thought about doing Kakoda and it was
one of those things where I really wanted to do
it to honor those who served, but also to walk
the track because there was something really alluring about it.
Speaker 7 (11:20):
But I just never thought i'd have the opportunity too.
Speaker 12 (11:23):
And then, funnily enough, just only six months ago, I
was at CrossFit and then my coach, who was a
critical care nurse in the Army, he did a couple
of tours of Afghanistan and he said to me that
he was doing it, and he brought me into it,
and together there were about three of us and we
all decided that yeah, we would go and do it.
And that's what we've been doing the last week. So
(11:44):
it's been a dream come true.
Speaker 7 (11:45):
Track.
Speaker 12 (11:46):
So if anyone who's done it will know just how
powerful and profound the experience is.
Speaker 11 (11:51):
Well, I know that there are I think on average,
about three thousand people who feel the need to do
this physical pilgrimage to go and see and sense what
it was, what it would have felt like for those
who fought there there and the six hundred and twenty
five id Australians who were killed there. Can you tell
us a little bit about where you are now and
(12:12):
what the track was like walking it for you? You're
a young, fit guy, We know that it's a challenge
for most people.
Speaker 12 (12:18):
Yeah, exactly. So I'm currently back at Port Moresby. So
we arrived back yesterday afternoon. So we actually did the
Kokoda track going from It was actually.
Speaker 7 (12:28):
In chronological order.
Speaker 12 (12:30):
So usually people do Kokoda from Port Moresby O's Corner
all the way up to Kakota and then they fly
out from pomp Anddetta, so that's going from north to sorry,
from south to north. So we actually did it the
other way from pomp and Detta and our first stop
was Kokota Village and then we actually followed the track
that the Aussies used when they were retreating from the
(12:51):
Japanese and repelling the Japanese and taking that process. So
the track itself is I actually wasn't prepared or expecting
how beautiful it would be, and it's hard to imagine
that such atrocities and so much chaos occurred there. The
track is narrow, the track is steep. At times, I
felt like I was in the middle of an Indiana
Jones movie. There were times when I was wading through
(13:13):
way steep creeks with our lovely porters, who I can
talk about shortly. There were days when we were climbing
up waterfalls and it was such an incredible adventure.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
There was relentless rain, mud the whole lot.
Speaker 12 (13:29):
It was something I've never experienced before, but something I'm so.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
Grateful to have done.
Speaker 11 (13:34):
How are your feet?
Speaker 12 (13:36):
My feet, Sophia, are actually really good. But it wasn't
that story about two days ago. So it was about
day six or day six or seven, and I started
feeling this really numbing sensation on the soles of my feet,
almost the point that they were stinging, and I quickly
realized that it was the onset of foot rotten. Fortunately
for me, I was able to put some tea tree
(13:57):
powder on them that night in camp, but it hurt
to walk. It was really, really, really really sore, and
unfortunately for one of my colleagues. Though we had a
big group of twenty eight and this poor bloke. About
day five he started developing worse foot rot than I had,
and his feet was swollen, they were red. And that's
(14:18):
simply because you're walking through mud, you're walking through creeks.
Your feet are always wet, yeah, and it's really hard
to keep them dry. So you really have to get
into the right frame of mind of when you stop
for a tee break or a lunch break, you have
to take off your shoes to air out your feet.
And I think that's actually the one thing that catches
people out when they do kakoda is that they have
(14:39):
the physical capability, the mental capability down pat but it's
more those other unexpected elements on the side that you
just don't anticipate, such as you know, foot care and
how you keep dry, all of those things on the
side that you just wouldn't think about.
Speaker 11 (14:54):
You did the full ninety six kilometers. We know the
Prime Minister, as I mentioned at the outset, walked about
sixteen k's with the p ANDNG. Prime Minister. Did you
have any idea that you would be there on the
track with them. I'm sure there was a contingency of
media and cameras that were also following.
Speaker 12 (15:10):
On well, interestingly, so the place where Prime Minister Anthony
Albanzi was today, I'm not too sure if he's still
there at this point in time, but it was in
a village called Ishiava and it was a famous battleground,
as you may be aware. And we were actually there
on our third day, so that was about five days ago,
and when we were there, one of the government advisors
(15:32):
for PNG was there also just getting a lay of
the land and where the Prime Minister would be on
the day of that ceremony, So we didn't actually brush
shoulders with the Prime minister, but he's been the talk
of the country. I'm looking at a paper now and
it's really two narratives that play here. So you've got
one where they're telling the diplomatic line where Prime Minister
Anthony Alberzi was quoted talking today about the symbolism of
(15:57):
Australia and Papua New Guinea coming together, whether it's on
defense issues, tackling climate change and challenges of the twenty
first century. You've got this other element to it, which
is the significance of Kokoda and there's probably not a
more deserving site for the Prime Minister to be in
that sense. Because what happened at Ishiava is something that
(16:18):
was so important to that campaign, for that Broader Kokoda campaign.
It was an intense six day battle, ferocious hand to
hand combat. There were ninety nine diigus who died at
that site. So it's very fitting that the Prime Minister
is there. And it's hard to imagine, as I said before,
that this beautiful site that is is Shiava, because you
go there and you just think that how can this
(16:39):
place that is so peaceful be the site of such
horrific conflict and chaos.
Speaker 7 (16:44):
And it was also the site, of course of our.
Speaker 12 (16:47):
Only VC for the campaign, so that was Bruce Steele Kingsbury,
Australia is only VC I think the first one as
well in Australia's military history. I could be wrong on
that one, but he has an extraordinary story, one of many,
and he was awarded for holding off advancing Japanese troops.
He was holding a submachine gun in one hand a
(17:08):
brand gun in the other, and for anyone who knows
their military, those are two heavy weapons and he was
able to hold the forces off for long enough to
give his troops enough time to recoup and eventually have
a safe way, a safe path out of issue Rava.
So a very important site that they're at today, and
you can actually go to the rock where they believe
(17:29):
Bruce Steel Kingsbury was shot by a sniper.
Speaker 7 (17:33):
So it's very powerful.
Speaker 11 (17:34):
Tell us about the Bemona War Cemetery and aiden you know,
the way that you're speaking so passionately about the history
and what unfolded. I wondered whether or not you knew
all of this going in to Kokoda, or did you
also learn a lot about this in the conversations that
you've had while you've been on the track.
Speaker 7 (17:52):
That's such a good point, Saphie.
Speaker 12 (17:54):
I actually felt really bad because when I went into this,
I didn't I wasn't properly brushed up on the full
history of Kokoda, and I was blissfully ignorant in that sense.
So I knew that Kokoda was significant, but I I
did a lot of my learning on the hike, and
in hindsight, I was very grateful for that because it
was all a surprise for me on the trip and
it made that experience all the more emotional for me,
(18:16):
and just to see what they would have gone through.
So the history, yes, it was something that I learned
as I went as for the Bamana War Cemetery, well,
I was brought to tears when I was walking through there.
So we actually went straight there from I was corner
yesterday to the Bamana War Cemetery. And the thing that
stood out to me, Sophie, You're walking through and there's
(18:38):
about four thousand, just over four thousand graves of soldiers
who were interred there from the actual campaign, and six
hundred of whom were shot during the conflict. And I
think the remaining of them they all sort of died
from other ailments and diseases that were sort of ac
quiet on the track. And you just go through and
you see ages as young as nineteen. I saw nineteen,
(19:00):
twenty twenty one, and then Sophie, I stopped at a
grave headstone that said twenty seven. Now I'm twenty seven
years old, and I'm just thinking, you know, that could
have been me, that could have been my friends, you know,
we could have been just living life. And then all
of a sudden, twenty four hours later, you get you know,
you're in at the recruitment office and you're going off
(19:22):
to this unknown land that nobody expects and nobody could
could have predicted what would have confronted them. So that
was profound for me when I saw that twenty seven
year old. And the other thing was that there are
about seven hundred gravesites there that don't have a name.
And I've actually got the inscription that's the that's on
(19:43):
the headstone and it says an Australian soldier of the
nineteen thirty nine to forty five war.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Like it.
Speaker 12 (19:50):
To me, that's so upsetting because these are like behind
that headstone, behind those seven hundred unnamed headstones, there are
families who will never know what really happened to their
loved ones, and that's just heartbreaking to me. This morning
when we were there, there was this myths that was
sort of setting over Bamana War Cemetery. Not myss but
(20:12):
but yeah, I think miss is a good way of
putting it. And that just added to the mood of it,
and it was very stirring and knowing that we were
having that dawn service at the site where these soldiers
were laid to rest, and that's another thing that I'd
always wanted to experience as an ANZAC day dawn service
at a site where where our diggers gave it all
(20:34):
for the country.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Aiden.
Speaker 11 (20:36):
It sounds like it's been a truly life changing experience
for you, and hearing you speak about it so passionately
and with emotion, I know that it's all very raw
for you and this is going to stay with you
for a really long time. But hearing you talk about
it is the reason why we have to hold on
to what Anzac Day means and not lose sight of
those sacrifices that were made, of those that went before us,
(20:58):
and how we continue to thank them for the freedoms
that we enjoy travel home safely.
Speaker 7 (21:03):
Thank you, Sophie.
Speaker 12 (21:04):
And if I could just also pay more respects to
all past present serving men and women after an experience,
I've always appreciated the work that they do, but after
an experience like this, it really drives home how important
our defense service is and how grateful we should be
for their contributions.
Speaker 11 (21:21):
Today, well said, you're a good air Gaiden.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Thanks soph you take care.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
And the final one I want to share is with
Bill James, who is one of the founders of Flights
and an amazing bloke, an amazing Australian, and what the
work that he did and he obviously references John Rennie
as well for the work that they both did as
a collective group and some volunteers to make sure that
we know where Isheravra is, where Brigade Hill is and
so on. And for those who have tracked Kakoda recently
(21:49):
you would absolutely understand the importance of this, and for
those about to trek Kakoda, these are people that are very,
very important in the history of what we know about
the track now. If not for them, we just would
have lost these parts of our history. So really really
looking forward to sharing this chat with you now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Before the break, I was talking to our four PC
producer Aidan Taylor, who of course finished the Kakoda track
last week. He told us the story about Kokoda's lost
battlefields and until relatively some major historical sites along the
track were all but lost to history. Many if you
were tracking it back then, you wouldn't have been able
to visit key places like Isarava where Prime Minister Anthony
(22:28):
Albanizi was ransac day. Well, that all started to change
about twenty six years ago a group of passionate volunteers
paid their own way over to Papua New Guinea to
help find these lost sits, and they invested huge amounts
of money in doing so. Now we've managed to track
down this particular fella, a bloke by the name of
Bill James, who of course helped build a flight center
(22:49):
Empire with Graham screw Turner. Bill had a crucial hand
in that process, and he went on to author a
comprehensive guide on the Kokoda Track. Now Bill joins us.
Now get a.
Speaker 10 (23:02):
Bill, Hi, Peter, how are you good? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
You give us a sense of what you encountered just
over twenty five years ago. When you first started walking
the Kakoda track, it was like the wild West.
Speaker 7 (23:12):
I've been told.
Speaker 9 (23:14):
Yes, there was only about fifty people walking the track
in those days. Of course, numbers got up after two
thousand up to around the six seven thousand a year.
Market's probably dropped back to about two to two and
a half thousand now. But it really was a wilderness
experience in those days. And I'd read all the history
(23:35):
that I possibly could about the track before.
Speaker 10 (23:38):
I went up there.
Speaker 9 (23:39):
There's a fantastic official history written by Dudley McCarthy in
the nineteen fifties. And when I actually got on the
track and asked my guide, who was very competent and
well trained ex Australian Army, where all these events took place.
He literally shrugged his shoulder and said, I don't know.
(24:00):
And I said, well who does know? And he said, well, unfortunately,
not too many people or nobody, none of us Westerners
really know where these events took place.
Speaker 10 (24:10):
So that inspired me to do some research.
Speaker 9 (24:15):
So here we are twenty six years later.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So let's have a let's take a look at some
of these Isarava where the PM was the other day,
Brigade Hill CON's Rock, for example, what did we know
about their location?
Speaker 7 (24:30):
Bill?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I mean, how painstaking of a task was this for you?
Speaker 9 (24:35):
Look, it was really painstaking, Peter, and I should probably
qualify a bit of the introduction there. I certainly did
do a lot of research for myself, but there were
a lot of other people working on these sites and
researching the various locations in addition to myself. So my
(24:56):
book in a sense became a repository for what was happening.
Speaker 10 (25:01):
Across the track.
Speaker 9 (25:05):
Take a lot of responsibility for Brigade Hill. Uncovering Brigade Hill,
that particular battle site where about one hundred Australians were killed.
Isha Rava goes back just before I started to become
involved in the researcher, an Australian policeman from Victoria, John Rennie,
(25:30):
was responsible for the initial uncovery of the site and
that's a bit of a long story, but he managed
to get some veterans up to the site by helicopter
and then there were subsequent visits by myself and other
Australian so it was a bit of a team effort
to get it to get.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Well, you're being very humble here, Bill, because I know
exactly what you did. You spent a lot of time
on the ground matching up historical maps of the terrain
to work out the site. You spent many many hours
with the World War II veterans who fought there. You
accompanied them on site visits to Kakoda. So yes, I
know you're humble, but and of course there were others involved.
(26:13):
But that sort of work is well, it's priceless. Actually,
it's priceless for this country.
Speaker 9 (26:20):
It really was an amazing experience to stand on that
site with some of the veterans and.
Speaker 10 (26:27):
Look hearing some of their stories. Perhaps I grew up.
Speaker 9 (26:31):
I'm getting mid seventies now, but we grew up in
the fifties and sixties and we probably were a little
bit dismissive of our parents' generation, and you know, we
were andy Vietnam and all that. It wasn't until I
really met some of these veterans. And remember at this time,
we got the veterans when.
Speaker 10 (26:51):
They're about eighty five years of age.
Speaker 9 (26:54):
Their memories were still fresh, they were still physically able
to get and walk around, to get to and walk
around these sites.
Speaker 10 (27:02):
And when I.
Speaker 9 (27:02):
Heard their stories, it reduced, it humbled us to the
point that we realized we had to keep this story
alive and pass it on to subsequent generations. And I
should say it Issaraba, as Aiden has probably told you.
It's an absolutely magnificent moving site just for plinth courage, endurance,
(27:27):
makeship and sacrifice etched into the marble. And I can
assure you that it was actually the veterans of the
second fourteenth Battalion, the Australians who fought there. They were
the ones who actually sat down and designed that memorial.
So it's not a memorial to a victory over an enemy.
(27:49):
It's a memorial to just what I've stated the courage
and the endurance and the makeship and the sacrifice that
the Australians has played there.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Bell you became very good friends with a legendary Kakoda
veteran by the name of Stan Bissittt. He's a former
Wallaby and he was on that ill fated nineteen thirty
nine touring team to England. He became a huge source
of knowledge for your efforts to find these Los Cocada sites, didn't.
Speaker 10 (28:15):
He He did.
Speaker 9 (28:16):
Indeed, he became like a father figure, like a grandfather
figure to me and his wife Gloria. They couldn't have
been more welcoming. And he was really the first veteran
that I sat down with and I couldn't reconcile an
Australian rugby player and someone who'd been in the front
(28:38):
line of the Second World War for four or five
years with the sort of gentle natured fellow that I
had the privilege of meeting. And he just told me
in cool, calm, collected verse about what happened up there,
having lost his brother, he's the loved brother during that battle.
(29:03):
It was such a moving experience and him recounting that
how he held his brother's hand his brother managed to
be carried out by some of his batoon and Stan
met him in the middle of the night.
Speaker 10 (29:19):
You brother was terribly shot by a.
Speaker 9 (29:22):
Machine gun fire, and as he sat with his brother,
who passed away in the early hours of the morning
and was buried in a shallow grave because the Australians
had to retreat. And when you hear these stories firsthand
and you're actually at the site, it becomes more than
an historical.
Speaker 10 (29:42):
Event.
Speaker 9 (29:43):
It's a very very spiritual, very moving and I think
a lot of the trekkers who've been there, Aiden included,
will tell you it's one of the most moving experiences
that you'll have as an Australian.
Speaker 10 (29:56):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Bill, Are you buoyed by what you see on insect
day with the way in which the younger generation in
particular have embraced the commemoration of the Anzac spirit and
the way in which Australians remember those who gave the
ultimate sacrifice for this country. Because it does. I'm sure
(30:20):
I'm not imagining this. The crowd seemed to be bigger
and stronger and more viziferous than ever.
Speaker 10 (30:28):
Look, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 9 (30:31):
I had the wonderful privilege of addressing my grandson and
granddaughter's school. They happened to be down in Victoria and
I went to their primary school. We're talking about our
little kids in first grade in primary school, and the
teachers got me to come along and address a combined class.
(30:52):
There probably would have been fifty little six and seven
year olds in the classroom. They just were enthralled by
the whole story for an hour. They held me there,
you asking questions, question after question, and it's a privilege
to be able to keep the story alive and pass
on those qualities. We're talking about what defines us as Australian,
(31:17):
just one little anecdote. One of those words is matship,
and a lot of people don't really understand what the
Australians meant by matship. It's not brinking in the pub.
An example is that there were fifteen thousand Australians captured
by the Japanese in Malaya. So this is not on
the Dakota track. I might ad where there were no prisoners.
(31:41):
Everyone who was captured was unfortunately murdered. But the Australians
survived captivity better than the other Allied soldiers, like the
British like the Americans, because they looked after one another,
that the officers didn't take privileges. Every man helped his mate,
(32:03):
and they had the highest of I will rate from
those years of captivity of any other Allied force. And
that's what made Chip's about. It's about looking after your
friend when the chips are really down. So those are
the qualities we want to pass on to the next generation.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Well, Bill, Bill James, we salute you. It's been a
fascinating chat. I knew it would be. You haven't disappointed,
and I want to make the point before we go
that had Bill waited another ten or fifteen years, the
veterans would have passed away. We wouldn't have known where
these sites were. And the significance of what he and
(32:42):
his mates did to find these sites I think is extraordinary.
And you've added a great chapter to Australia's military history.
So from before we see drive, Bill, we salute you.
Speaker 9 (32:56):
Thanks very much, Peter, thank you for the opportunity to
say hi and tell my story.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
There is Bill j Thanks Bill, there is Bill ja
James co founded Flight Center with Screw Turner, and then
the passion and the way in which he was able to,
and he is humble, but I can tell you now
he was one of the few people who worked tirelessly
to ensure that these sites were found. He invested his
(33:24):
own money into ensuring it happened at a time when
government handouts for such archaeological projects were not forthcoming.
Speaker 6 (33:40):
Less harmanzor stubieffee.
Speaker 8 (33:46):
Raising bond alvisors.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
And the bond between Ozzie's and the people of Papio
and New Guinea was forged in war and it endures
in peace. We've felt that friendliness, that special connection and
(34:11):
the comforting presence of our porters and in every small
community along the Kakoda Track.
Speaker 13 (34:18):
WHOA Okay, guys, thanks for tuning in. It would be
(34:39):
awesome if you'd share this with anyone you know that's
going to the Kakoda Track or that has been and.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Has a keen interest in the track. It's people and
those that choose to track it. The Pillars of Isheraba say, courage, endurance, makeship,
and sacrifice great words to live by, and this podcast
will offer makeshift and a place for those that live
and love the CoA Coda Track experience. Until next episode,
live a life that inspires you and those around you,
and remember to take time out to think that what's.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
Really important, what's really important, what's really important?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Thanks for listening to the Katkoda Track podcast. To get
in touched or stay up to date, go to Kakoda
Track Podcast on Facebook or email Glen at Adventure professionals
dot com. Belou don't forget to subscribe and share with
your friends. Let's keep the spirit and the stories of
Kakoda and the P and G people alive.
Apodjay Production.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This podcast is proudly brought to you by Adventure Professionals
www dot Adventure Professionals dot com dot au.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
For me, Mission Ridge and Brigade Hill. The whole Kakoda campaign.
More people need to know about it. I know everyone
knows someone who's trek Kokoda, but to actually understand the
stories of what these young guys did, it's harrowing what
they went through.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
They were staunched to the end against odds uncounted and
they fell with their faces to the.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Welcome to the Kakoda Track Podcast, hosted by former solject
Glen Asa. This is the place to hear stories from
those who've trecked Kakoda and gained tips of knowledge about
what to expect on the track, or to relive your
own amazing experiences. The Kakoda Track Podcast keeping the spirit
of Kakoda alive.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Hey Roun Glen Asa here with the Kakoda Track Podcast,
doing something a little bit different this week now. A
couple of weeks ago, I actually shared an episode with
the young producer from four BC, which is a radio
station up in Queensland here by the name of Aidan Taylor.
Aidan's a great young man, I really enjoyed our chat,
very articulate but also very passionate about keeping Australia's military
(01:29):
history alive.
Speaker 5 (01:30):
Which I love.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Now he also did some talks on four BC, so
I've gone back through and found a couple of those.
Now there's three things I'm going to share with you today.
One is an interview I actually did with the Morning Show,
and I did it on Anzac Day, So this phone
call was about three point thirty four o'clock in the morning.
To their credit, they came in very early and did
(01:52):
a recording with me where I'm just talking about some
things around Kakoda. Then there's an interview that Aidan himself
did with Sophie Formica where he's talking about his experience.
And then whilst on Dakota, I always talk about the
importance of part of our history where a couple of
key figures, John Rennie and Bill James actually found where
(02:15):
significant battle sites were so Ishiava Brigade Hill, Danikie. A
lot of these places were lost through the seventies and
eighties and into the nineties, and then these guys actually
went out and spent their own time, their own money,
brought in veterans who had fought on the track, and
without them having done that, we would not be sure
today where Isharava actually is, and that memorial wouldn't be there.
(02:39):
We wouldn't be sure where Brigade Hill actually was, and
we wouldn't be sure where places like Danikie were. These
are the places where the very lives of our young
men were taken, and yet we had forgotten about these places.
So because of John Renni and Bill James, that was
able to be found and we have what we have now.
The memorial was actually built and designed by veterans who
(03:03):
fought on Kakoda. Courage, endurance, Mate, you've been sacrifice. Those
words came from those veterans, and I think that's really powerful.
So the third interview is actually with Bill James himself
talking about that process, and I really want to share these,
So I'm going to kick off with the first one,
which is an interview that I did on Anzac Day
(03:24):
with the Morning crew from four BC.
Speaker 6 (03:30):
Well, as we know, our Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi is
walking the Kokoda trail in Papua New Guinea and we've
got someone who knows all about that. He's a mindset
coach and trainer Glenn az Our. Good morning, Hey team,
how are we pretty good? Thanks Glenn, Glenn, you're there
at the moment. How many times have you done the trail?
Speaker 5 (03:54):
I've literally just completed my ninetieth crossing of the track.
Speaker 7 (03:58):
All right.
Speaker 8 (03:59):
We've got to ask why.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
I've spent so many years in the military full time,
and so I guess it's just a part of my
history trying to pack on a book and to code
in particular such military significance. It's this physical, emotional journey
that I just absolutely love. So I've been doing it
for a bit out of twenty years now. So I
started when I was in the Army, but I've been
doing it ever since I got out in the last
(04:22):
thirteen as a full time job.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
For a person who's never done the track, what's it like?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Is it really that tough?
Speaker 5 (04:30):
Yeah? It is. I think it's one of the toughest
things that most people do. You know. I've taken my
daughter that first did it when she was eight years
of age. I've taken a seventy nine year old maybe
across the track. And I've taken single and double amputees
in a military veterans program I've run and everyone in between.
But it is tough. It's something that you absolutely must
(04:50):
prepare for. And the people in my experiences struggle are
the ones who underestimate it, who just think, oh, I
had to make they did it, and I was as
fires him or her, And you know, you've really got
to respect what it is you're going to do over there.
It's tough.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
When you say physically prepare and also prepared. What are
you talking about here, like, I mean, are we talking
about boot camps for six or seven weeks beforehand and
psychology training or is it a bit less strenuous than that.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
It's probably less strenuous but longer. So I'll normally tell
people that it's a minimum of a twelve week commitment.
I asked to do a minimum of three sessions a week,
depending where their fitness was. Out of course, if I'm
coming straight out of an office for the last ten, fifteen,
twenty years and I'm not doing a lot physically, yeah
i might need to do a bit more. But for
most people, I've put them through one to two gymner
(05:39):
sessions a week just working on the musculatus. So I've
got the supporting structure and then the biggest thing is
get a backpack on, get some weight in it and
get out walking. Now you have the option on Kokoa
to hire locals that will help carry your bag and stuff,
which some people definitely need. But if you carry all
your own gear and carry everything you need, you're carrying
about twenty kilos in the back and for a lot
(06:01):
of people that haven't had and done that, and so
you definitely definitely have to prepare for that two to
three hour bushwalks. You know, for me being Brisbane based,
we're always out around Mount Hoop on weekends when I'm
not on the trail itself, and it's just about i say,
getting kays on your legs more than anything else.
Speaker 8 (06:19):
All Right, the Prime Minister, he's doing it. How much
work could he have done?
Speaker 5 (06:25):
Well, to be honest, he's not doing the whole trail,
so I guess he probably can get away not quite
as much work. And you know, he looks pretty fit.
So he's going from Takoda village up to Ischerata, which
is a pretty strenuous couple of days. There's a significant
battle happened there. There's a significant piece of our history
(06:46):
that he's been there to represent, which is pretty good.
He's the first prime minister to have done it. Kevin
Rudd did do it back in six before he was
a prime minister. He did the whole trail, but Albaniz
he's doing that just that first bit with the PG promner.
It's huge news over here. There's people of the whole
country's talking about it. It's actually really really good for
the local people, I think, to see both of those
(07:08):
guys out there representing it. But he still definitely would
have had to do some work to make you he
is ready for him.
Speaker 9 (07:13):
What happens on Antac Day on the track?
Speaker 10 (07:15):
Do people pause?
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Do they have their moment in silence? Is there any commemoration?
Speaker 5 (07:22):
Yeah, there's definitely. There's a few different services at different
places along. So there's one at Israeba Battlefield and there's
one a Brigadon Hill, which are the two most significant
battle points where the Australians fought against the Japanese. There
were both battles that we were pushed back from but
ultimately set us up to victory labor and so that
we had two massive services there. And then at the
(07:42):
Mount of War Semmetery in Port Moresby, there's a huge
one as well. That's the biggest Australian war graves in
war cemetery in the world, and it's the biggest in
the Southern Hemisphere. And over four thousand Australians lay very
there from this campaign and campaign to Urns area, and
so people will either finish the trial and go to
the man will start with the service and then go
(08:04):
back on the trail, and then they'll have the two
on the trail itself as well.
Speaker 6 (08:09):
Well, Glen, we hear you calling it the Kokoda trail.
We hear it called the Kokoda trail and the Kokoda Track.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
What is it?
Speaker 5 (08:17):
That's a great question. It's officially the Cocoa Trail, and
that's in official war history. But on the trail itself
it's written as track on one side of all monuments
and trail on the other. And the history behind that
is that the Aussies diggers and they fought here, and
I've met quite a few of them when they were
still around, they all referred to it as the track. However,
(08:37):
the Americans were in control of this battle from Brisbane,
they weren't on the trail itself, and they don't really
use the word track. So it officially went into our
war history as a trail, and a lot of the
biggest refused to call it that and still caught it
track and so it causes a lot of contention. And
so what they've done is I've just used both but
officially this trail.
Speaker 8 (08:56):
Now we do have to ask you. You've got one
of our former producers here, current Drive Time producer, colleague
Aiden is with you. How's he going.
Speaker 5 (09:06):
He's a cracking young bloke. He's done really well. You know,
he's just such an upbef character. He's always got a
big smile and he's just fit of buggery and he
just has absolutely immersed himself fully in the experience. He's
been a really good young bloke on the trailers.
Speaker 8 (09:22):
Yeah, just don't get into a conversation about Liverpool because
it's so boring.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
He's got a few big, deep conversations and that's why I've.
Speaker 9 (09:32):
Avoided Glen us.
Speaker 6 (09:35):
We thank you so much for taking the time to
talk to us today.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
No way, So so you go.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
That was my little chat with the morning crew from
four BC, And now I'm going to roll straight into
Aiden talking directly with one of his colleagues, Sophie for Mica.
Speaker 11 (09:55):
Today, of course Anzac dayrion of those who have served,
those who are serving, and I'm sure that you've already
heard many individual stories.
Speaker 10 (10:02):
We know.
Speaker 11 (10:02):
The Prime Minister also started his day with a special
dawn service in Papua New Guinea. He made history becoming
the first sitting Prime minister to complete a section of
the Kokoda track in Papua New Guinea. And on that
track with him today was four BC's very own one
of our producers, Aidan Taylor, who went over to Papua
(10:24):
New Guinea to walk Kakoda and he finished as well
with a dawn service this morning. He's joining us now
on four BC afternoons from PMNG.
Speaker 8 (10:32):
How are you, Aiden, good?
Speaker 7 (10:33):
Thanks Sophie.
Speaker 12 (10:34):
Pleasure to be with you on this most sacred of
days in the Australian calendar, the one hundred and ninth
anniversary of the ANZACs and the eighty second anniversary of
that Kokota campaign. And what an honor it's been to
be able to walk the track and be it the
Vermina War Cemetery today for the dawn service.
Speaker 11 (10:51):
Well, Aiden, can you take us back to why it
is you decided that you wanted to do it this
is your first time. Was it something you've always wanted
to fulfill?
Speaker 7 (11:01):
Yeah, exactly, It's something I've always wanted to do.
Speaker 12 (11:03):
In fact, it's been a dream of my since at
least I would have been at least ten years old
when I first thought about doing Kakoda and it was
one of those things where I really wanted to do
it to honor those who served, but also to walk
the track because there was something really alluring about it.
Speaker 7 (11:20):
But I just never thought i'd have the opportunity too.
Speaker 12 (11:23):
And then, funnily enough, just only six months ago, I
was at CrossFit and then my coach, who was a
critical care nurse in the Army, he did a couple
of tours of Afghanistan and he said to me that
he was doing it, and he brought me into it,
and together there were about three of us and we
all decided that yeah, we would go and do it.
And that's what we've been doing the last week. So
(11:44):
it's been a dream come true.
Speaker 7 (11:45):
Track.
Speaker 12 (11:46):
So if anyone who's done it will know just how
powerful and profound the experience is.
Speaker 11 (11:51):
Well, I know that there are I think on average,
about three thousand people who feel the need to do
this physical pilgrimage to go and see and sense what
it was, what it would have felt like for those
who fought there there and the six hundred and twenty
five id Australians who were killed there. Can you tell
us a little bit about where you are now and
(12:12):
what the track was like walking it for you? You're
a young, fit guy, We know that it's a challenge
for most people.
Speaker 12 (12:18):
Yeah, exactly. So I'm currently back at Port Moresby. So
we arrived back yesterday afternoon. So we actually did the
Kokoda track going from It was actually.
Speaker 7 (12:28):
In chronological order.
Speaker 12 (12:30):
So usually people do Kokoda from Port Moresby O's Corner
all the way up to Kakota and then they fly
out from pomp Anddetta, so that's going from north to sorry,
from south to north. So we actually did it the
other way from pomp and Detta and our first stop
was Kokota Village and then we actually followed the track
that the Aussies used when they were retreating from the
(12:51):
Japanese and repelling the Japanese and taking that process. So
the track itself is I actually wasn't prepared or expecting
how beautiful it would be, and it's hard to imagine
that such atrocities and so much chaos occurred there. The
track is narrow, the track is steep. At times, I
felt like I was in the middle of an Indiana
Jones movie. There were times when I was wading through
(13:13):
way steep creeks with our lovely porters, who I can
talk about shortly. There were days when we were climbing
up waterfalls and it was such an incredible adventure.
Speaker 7 (13:24):
There was relentless rain, mud the whole lot.
Speaker 12 (13:29):
It was something I've never experienced before, but something I'm so.
Speaker 7 (13:33):
Grateful to have done.
Speaker 11 (13:34):
How are your feet?
Speaker 12 (13:36):
My feet, Sophia, are actually really good. But it wasn't
that story about two days ago. So it was about
day six or day six or seven, and I started
feeling this really numbing sensation on the soles of my feet,
almost the point that they were stinging, and I quickly
realized that it was the onset of foot rotten. Fortunately
for me, I was able to put some tea tree
(13:57):
powder on them that night in camp, but it hurt
to walk. It was really, really, really really sore, and
unfortunately for one of my colleagues. Though we had a
big group of twenty eight and this poor bloke. About
day five he started developing worse foot rot than I had,
and his feet was swollen, they were red. And that's
(14:18):
simply because you're walking through mud, you're walking through creeks.
Your feet are always wet, yeah, and it's really hard
to keep them dry. So you really have to get
into the right frame of mind of when you stop
for a tee break or a lunch break, you have
to take off your shoes to air out your feet.
And I think that's actually the one thing that catches
people out when they do kakoda is that they have
(14:39):
the physical capability, the mental capability down pat but it's
more those other unexpected elements on the side that you
just don't anticipate, such as you know, foot care and
how you keep dry, all of those things on the
side that you just wouldn't think about.
Speaker 11 (14:54):
You did the full ninety six kilometers. We know the
Prime Minister, as I mentioned at the outset, walked about
sixteen k's with the p ANDNG. Prime Minister. Did you
have any idea that you would be there on the
track with them. I'm sure there was a contingency of
media and cameras that were also following.
Speaker 12 (15:10):
On well, interestingly, so the place where Prime Minister Anthony
Albanzi was today, I'm not too sure if he's still
there at this point in time, but it was in
a village called Ishiava and it was a famous battleground,
as you may be aware. And we were actually there
on our third day, so that was about five days ago,
and when we were there, one of the government advisors
(15:32):
for PNG was there also just getting a lay of
the land and where the Prime Minister would be on
the day of that ceremony, So we didn't actually brush
shoulders with the Prime minister, but he's been the talk
of the country. I'm looking at a paper now and
it's really two narratives that play here. So you've got
one where they're telling the diplomatic line where Prime Minister
Anthony Alberzi was quoted talking today about the symbolism of
(15:57):
Australia and Papua New Guinea coming together, whether it's on
defense issues, tackling climate change and challenges of the twenty
first century. You've got this other element to it, which
is the significance of Kokoda and there's probably not a
more deserving site for the Prime Minister to be in
that sense. Because what happened at Ishiava is something that
(16:18):
was so important to that campaign, for that Broader Kokoda campaign.
It was an intense six day battle, ferocious hand to
hand combat. There were ninety nine diigus who died at
that site. So it's very fitting that the Prime Minister
is there. And it's hard to imagine, as I said before,
that this beautiful site that is is Shiava, because you
go there and you just think that how can this
(16:39):
place that is so peaceful be the site of such
horrific conflict and chaos.
Speaker 7 (16:44):
And it was also the site, of course of our.
Speaker 12 (16:47):
Only VC for the campaign, so that was Bruce Steele Kingsbury,
Australia is only VC I think the first one as
well in Australia's military history. I could be wrong on
that one, but he has an extraordinary story, one of many,
and he was awarded for holding off advancing Japanese troops.
He was holding a submachine gun in one hand a
(17:08):
brand gun in the other, and for anyone who knows
their military, those are two heavy weapons and he was
able to hold the forces off for long enough to
give his troops enough time to recoup and eventually have
a safe way, a safe path out of issue Rava.
So a very important site that they're at today, and
you can actually go to the rock where they believe
(17:29):
Bruce Steel Kingsbury was shot by a sniper.
Speaker 7 (17:33):
So it's very powerful.
Speaker 11 (17:34):
Tell us about the Bemona War Cemetery and aiden you know,
the way that you're speaking so passionately about the history
and what unfolded. I wondered whether or not you knew
all of this going in to Kokoda, or did you
also learn a lot about this in the conversations that
you've had while you've been on the track.
Speaker 7 (17:52):
That's such a good point, Saphie.
Speaker 12 (17:54):
I actually felt really bad because when I went into this,
I didn't I wasn't properly brushed up on the full
history of Kokoda, and I was blissfully ignorant in that sense.
So I knew that Kokoda was significant, but I I
did a lot of my learning on the hike, and
in hindsight, I was very grateful for that because it
was all a surprise for me on the trip and
it made that experience all the more emotional for me,
(18:16):
and just to see what they would have gone through.
So the history, yes, it was something that I learned
as I went as for the Bamana War Cemetery, well,
I was brought to tears when I was walking through there.
So we actually went straight there from I was corner
yesterday to the Bamana War Cemetery. And the thing that
stood out to me, Sophie, You're walking through and there's
(18:38):
about four thousand, just over four thousand graves of soldiers
who were interred there from the actual campaign, and six
hundred of whom were shot during the conflict. And I
think the remaining of them they all sort of died
from other ailments and diseases that were sort of ac
quiet on the track. And you just go through and
you see ages as young as nineteen. I saw nineteen,
(19:00):
twenty twenty one, and then Sophie, I stopped at a
grave headstone that said twenty seven. Now I'm twenty seven
years old, and I'm just thinking, you know, that could
have been me, that could have been my friends, you know,
we could have been just living life. And then all
of a sudden, twenty four hours later, you get you know,
you're in at the recruitment office and you're going off
(19:22):
to this unknown land that nobody expects and nobody could
could have predicted what would have confronted them. So that
was profound for me when I saw that twenty seven
year old. And the other thing was that there are
about seven hundred gravesites there that don't have a name.
And I've actually got the inscription that's the that's on
(19:43):
the headstone and it says an Australian soldier of the
nineteen thirty nine to forty five war.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
Like it.
Speaker 12 (19:50):
To me, that's so upsetting because these are like behind
that headstone, behind those seven hundred unnamed headstones, there are
families who will never know what really happened to their
loved ones, and that's just heartbreaking to me. This morning
when we were there, there was this myths that was
sort of setting over Bamana War Cemetery. Not myss but
(20:12):
but yeah, I think miss is a good way of
putting it. And that just added to the mood of it,
and it was very stirring and knowing that we were
having that dawn service at the site where these soldiers
were laid to rest, and that's another thing that I'd
always wanted to experience as an ANZAC day dawn service
at a site where where our diggers gave it all
(20:34):
for the country.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Aiden.
Speaker 11 (20:36):
It sounds like it's been a truly life changing experience
for you, and hearing you speak about it so passionately
and with emotion, I know that it's all very raw
for you and this is going to stay with you
for a really long time. But hearing you talk about
it is the reason why we have to hold on
to what Anzac Day means and not lose sight of
those sacrifices that were made, of those that went before us,
(20:58):
and how we continue to thank them for the freedoms
that we enjoy travel home safely.
Speaker 7 (21:03):
Thank you, Sophie.
Speaker 12 (21:04):
And if I could just also pay more respects to
all past present serving men and women after an experience,
I've always appreciated the work that they do, but after
an experience like this, it really drives home how important
our defense service is and how grateful we should be
for their contributions.
Speaker 11 (21:21):
Today, well said, you're a good air Gaiden.
Speaker 7 (21:24):
Thanks soph you take care.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
And the final one I want to share is with
Bill James, who is one of the founders of Flights
and an amazing bloke, an amazing Australian, and what the
work that he did and he obviously references John Rennie
as well for the work that they both did as
a collective group and some volunteers to make sure that
we know where Isheravra is, where Brigade Hill is and
so on. And for those who have tracked Kakoda recently
(21:49):
you would absolutely understand the importance of this, and for
those about to trek Kakoda, these are people that are very,
very important in the history of what we know about
the track now. If not for them, we just would
have lost these parts of our history. So really really
looking forward to sharing this chat with you now.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
Before the break, I was talking to our four PC
producer Aidan Taylor, who of course finished the Kakoda track
last week. He told us the story about Kokoda's lost
battlefields and until relatively some major historical sites along the
track were all but lost to history. Many if you
were tracking it back then, you wouldn't have been able
to visit key places like Isarava where Prime Minister Anthony
(22:28):
Albanizi was ransac day. Well, that all started to change
about twenty six years ago a group of passionate volunteers
paid their own way over to Papua New Guinea to
help find these lost sits, and they invested huge amounts
of money in doing so. Now we've managed to track
down this particular fella, a bloke by the name of
Bill James, who of course helped build a flight center
(22:49):
Empire with Graham screw Turner. Bill had a crucial hand
in that process, and he went on to author a
comprehensive guide on the Kokoda Track. Now Bill joins us.
Now get a.
Speaker 10 (23:02):
Bill, Hi, Peter, how are you good? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (23:05):
You give us a sense of what you encountered just
over twenty five years ago. When you first started walking
the Kakoda track, it was like the wild West.
Speaker 7 (23:12):
I've been told.
Speaker 9 (23:14):
Yes, there was only about fifty people walking the track
in those days. Of course, numbers got up after two
thousand up to around the six seven thousand a year.
Market's probably dropped back to about two to two and
a half thousand now. But it really was a wilderness
experience in those days. And I'd read all the history
(23:35):
that I possibly could about the track before.
Speaker 10 (23:38):
I went up there.
Speaker 9 (23:39):
There's a fantastic official history written by Dudley McCarthy in
the nineteen fifties. And when I actually got on the
track and asked my guide, who was very competent and
well trained ex Australian Army, where all these events took place.
He literally shrugged his shoulder and said, I don't know.
(24:00):
And I said, well who does know? And he said, well, unfortunately,
not too many people or nobody, none of us Westerners
really know where these events took place.
Speaker 10 (24:10):
So that inspired me to do some research.
Speaker 9 (24:15):
So here we are twenty six years later.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
So let's have a let's take a look at some
of these Isarava where the PM was the other day,
Brigade Hill CON's Rock, for example, what did we know
about their location?
Speaker 7 (24:30):
Bill?
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I mean, how painstaking of a task was this for you?
Speaker 9 (24:35):
Look, it was really painstaking, Peter, and I should probably
qualify a bit of the introduction there. I certainly did
do a lot of research for myself, but there were
a lot of other people working on these sites and
researching the various locations in addition to myself. So my
(24:56):
book in a sense became a repository for what was happening.
Speaker 10 (25:01):
Across the track.
Speaker 9 (25:05):
Take a lot of responsibility for Brigade Hill. Uncovering Brigade Hill,
that particular battle site where about one hundred Australians were killed.
Isha Rava goes back just before I started to become
involved in the researcher, an Australian policeman from Victoria, John Rennie,
(25:30):
was responsible for the initial uncovery of the site and
that's a bit of a long story, but he managed
to get some veterans up to the site by helicopter
and then there were subsequent visits by myself and other
Australian so it was a bit of a team effort
to get it to get.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Well, you're being very humble here, Bill, because I know
exactly what you did. You spent a lot of time
on the ground matching up historical maps of the terrain
to work out the site. You spent many many hours
with the World War II veterans who fought there. You
accompanied them on site visits to Kakoda. So yes, I
know you're humble, but and of course there were others involved.
(26:13):
But that sort of work is well, it's priceless. Actually,
it's priceless for this country.
Speaker 9 (26:20):
It really was an amazing experience to stand on that
site with some of the veterans and.
Speaker 10 (26:27):
Look hearing some of their stories. Perhaps I grew up.
Speaker 9 (26:31):
I'm getting mid seventies now, but we grew up in
the fifties and sixties and we probably were a little
bit dismissive of our parents' generation, and you know, we
were andy Vietnam and all that. It wasn't until I
really met some of these veterans. And remember at this time,
we got the veterans when.
Speaker 10 (26:51):
They're about eighty five years of age.
Speaker 9 (26:54):
Their memories were still fresh, they were still physically able
to get and walk around, to get to and walk
around these sites.
Speaker 10 (27:02):
And when I.
Speaker 9 (27:02):
Heard their stories, it reduced, it humbled us to the
point that we realized we had to keep this story
alive and pass it on to subsequent generations. And I
should say it Issaraba, as Aiden has probably told you.
It's an absolutely magnificent moving site just for plinth courage, endurance,
(27:27):
makeship and sacrifice etched into the marble. And I can
assure you that it was actually the veterans of the
second fourteenth Battalion, the Australians who fought there. They were
the ones who actually sat down and designed that memorial.
So it's not a memorial to a victory over an enemy.
(27:49):
It's a memorial to just what I've stated the courage
and the endurance and the makeship and the sacrifice that
the Australians has played there.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Bell you became very good friends with a legendary Kakoda
veteran by the name of Stan Bissittt. He's a former
Wallaby and he was on that ill fated nineteen thirty
nine touring team to England. He became a huge source
of knowledge for your efforts to find these Los Cocada sites, didn't.
Speaker 10 (28:15):
He He did.
Speaker 9 (28:16):
Indeed, he became like a father figure, like a grandfather
figure to me and his wife Gloria. They couldn't have
been more welcoming. And he was really the first veteran
that I sat down with and I couldn't reconcile an
Australian rugby player and someone who'd been in the front
(28:38):
line of the Second World War for four or five
years with the sort of gentle natured fellow that I
had the privilege of meeting. And he just told me
in cool, calm, collected verse about what happened up there,
having lost his brother, he's the loved brother during that battle.
(29:03):
It was such a moving experience and him recounting that
how he held his brother's hand his brother managed to
be carried out by some of his batoon and Stan
met him in the middle of the night.
Speaker 10 (29:19):
You brother was terribly shot by a.
Speaker 9 (29:22):
Machine gun fire, and as he sat with his brother,
who passed away in the early hours of the morning
and was buried in a shallow grave because the Australians
had to retreat. And when you hear these stories firsthand
and you're actually at the site, it becomes more than
an historical.
Speaker 10 (29:42):
Event.
Speaker 9 (29:43):
It's a very very spiritual, very moving and I think
a lot of the trekkers who've been there, Aiden included,
will tell you it's one of the most moving experiences
that you'll have as an Australian.
Speaker 10 (29:56):
Very much so.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
Bill, Are you buoyed by what you see on insect
day with the way in which the younger generation in
particular have embraced the commemoration of the Anzac spirit and
the way in which Australians remember those who gave the
ultimate sacrifice for this country. Because it does. I'm sure
(30:20):
I'm not imagining this. The crowd seemed to be bigger
and stronger and more viziferous than ever.
Speaker 10 (30:28):
Look, I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 9 (30:31):
I had the wonderful privilege of addressing my grandson and
granddaughter's school. They happened to be down in Victoria and
I went to their primary school. We're talking about our
little kids in first grade in primary school, and the
teachers got me to come along and address a combined class.
(30:52):
There probably would have been fifty little six and seven
year olds in the classroom. They just were enthralled by
the whole story for an hour. They held me there,
you asking questions, question after question, and it's a privilege
to be able to keep the story alive and pass
on those qualities. We're talking about what defines us as Australian,
(31:17):
just one little anecdote. One of those words is matship,
and a lot of people don't really understand what the
Australians meant by matship. It's not brinking in the pub.
An example is that there were fifteen thousand Australians captured
by the Japanese in Malaya. So this is not on
the Dakota track. I might ad where there were no prisoners.
(31:41):
Everyone who was captured was unfortunately murdered. But the Australians
survived captivity better than the other Allied soldiers, like the
British like the Americans, because they looked after one another,
that the officers didn't take privileges. Every man helped his mate,
(32:03):
and they had the highest of I will rate from
those years of captivity of any other Allied force. And
that's what made Chip's about. It's about looking after your
friend when the chips are really down. So those are
the qualities we want to pass on to the next generation.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
Well, Bill, Bill James, we salute you. It's been a
fascinating chat. I knew it would be. You haven't disappointed,
and I want to make the point before we go
that had Bill waited another ten or fifteen years, the
veterans would have passed away. We wouldn't have known where
these sites were. And the significance of what he and
(32:42):
his mates did to find these sites I think is extraordinary.
And you've added a great chapter to Australia's military history.
So from before we see drive, Bill, we salute you.
Speaker 9 (32:56):
Thanks very much, Peter, thank you for the opportunity to
say hi and tell my story.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
There is Bill j Thanks Bill, there is Bill ja
James co founded Flight Center with Screw Turner, and then
the passion and the way in which he was able to,
and he is humble, but I can tell you now
he was one of the few people who worked tirelessly
to ensure that these sites were found. He invested his
(33:24):
own money into ensuring it happened at a time when
government handouts for such archaeological projects were not forthcoming.
Speaker 6 (33:40):
Less harmanzor stubieffee.
Speaker 8 (33:46):
Raising bond alvisors.
Speaker 4 (33:48):
And the bond between Ozzie's and the people of Papio
and New Guinea was forged in war and it endures
in peace. We've felt that friendliness, that special connection and
(34:11):
the comforting presence of our porters and in every small
community along the Kakoda Track.
Speaker 13 (34:18):
WHOA Okay, guys, thanks for tuning in. It would be
(34:39):
awesome if you'd share this with anyone you know that's
going to the Kakoda Track or that has been and.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
Has a keen interest in the track. It's people and
those that choose to track it. The Pillars of Isheraba say, courage, endurance, makeship,
and sacrifice great words to live by, and this podcast
will offer makeshift and a place for those that live
and love the CoA Coda Track experience. Until next episode,
live a life that inspires you and those around you,
and remember to take time out to think that what's.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
Really important, what's really important, what's really important?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Thanks for listening to the Katkoda Track podcast. To get
in touched or stay up to date, go to Kakoda
Track Podcast on Facebook or email Glen at Adventure professionals
dot com. Belou don't forget to subscribe and share with
your friends. Let's keep the spirit and the stories of
Kakoda and the P and G people alive.
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