August 18, 2025 • 42 mins
In this season of MID, we are answering the dilemmas and questions that you, our listeners, have sent us.
This episode is all about midlife friendships—how to navigate both new and old ones. Our guest, psychologist Clare Rowe, has plenty of experience dealing with the complexities of friendships. She's got a story about an experience with a friendship breakup—one you’ll be glad didn’t happen to you.
The dilemmas that Clare & Holly tackle in this episode are:
- One of my good friends has started being awful, but she says Perimenopause is the reason for all her outbursts. Do I believe her and work through it, or do I walk away?
- My ex-best friend and I drifted apart 10 years ago, but I find myself missing her a lot. Should I accept this friendship is in the past or try to reconnect?
- I can't stand my friend's political opinions. Do I distance myself from the whole group? Or do I say we just can’t talk politics?
Find out more about Clare's work here.
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CREDITS:
Guest: Clare Rowe
Host: Holly Wainwright
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
So you're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. Like romantic love, we
write songs about it, TV shows and books and endless
appreciative social media posts. Like romantic love, we know it's
good for us, helps us live longer, stay happier, makes
us more connected, provides us scaffolding for our lives to
(00:34):
climb and grow alongside. Friendship is meant to be one
of the less complicated loves of our lives. Just ask
Carrie Bradshaw about that, and friendship is one of its
great choice. But also, like romantic love, friendship can break
our hearts, keep us awake at night, whip us into
an indignant I told you so frenzy, confuse us, and
(00:57):
leave us questioning what we've done, said and endured. I'm
Holly Wainwright and I am Mid. Welcome to Mid, the
show for gen X women who are anything. But you
might know already that on this season of the show,
we are talking through your dilemmas, and up until now
I've caught up some very clever people to talk through
(01:18):
your questions on everything from weight and tweakments to divorce
and dating and now today friendship. How does it feel
if your best friend suddenly ghosts you? Can you cold
call an ex best friend? What do you do if
the person you've shared so much with the years suddenly
seems to believe in everything you don't? And can we
(01:39):
blame our hormones for being a shitty friend? This week,
I'm joined by a very smart psychologist called Claire Row
to help us chew over these questions. Claire is the
leading Australian psychologist. She's also a speaker and a writer,
and as you're going to find out on today's show,
she also has a friendship breakdown story of our own
(02:01):
that is kind of astounding.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's the only word I can find for it.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Before we get into this episode, though, I need to
tell you that this is the last step set of
season six. Ad mid We're going to be back in
a couple of months with an absolute doozy of a
season seven. We're working on it now and we're going
to come back to big conversations with truly incredible grown
up women, and my god, you're going to love it.
I can't wait to tell you about some of the
people we've got lined up. But until then, hold my
(02:28):
hand and let's jump into some sticky friendship problems with Clavro.
I get so many friendship questions and stories. I feel
like it's an area of our life that we know
is so important and we get so much from our
female friends, but also can sometimes be a bit fraught.
And yeah, I always say that I think that friendship
(02:48):
breakups and friendship problems can be just as painful as
romantic ones.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
One hundred agree, one hundred percent. I mean they, Oh,
I know from personal experience, they can be messy and
painful and complicated and drawn out, like drawn out ghosting,
and there's no big fight sometimes and there's no mixtape
crying in that way, and sometimes a lack of closure
(03:14):
and confusion. So absolutely, you know, best friendships ending can
be really painful. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Absolutely, So let's jump into some of the dilemmas that
the mid listeners center about friendship. Okay, I want to
get back together with my ex best friend, so our
listener writes, I used to be exceptionally close with a
woman I met through work when we were both in
our early twenties. We used to spend Christmases together. I
live away from my family, holiday together, even shared an
(03:42):
apartment once. I could never have imagined that we would
split up, but we did. Our life circumstances changed. She
had kids before me, she was in a relationship with
a man I didn't really like, and we sort of
drifted apart and.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Then fell apart.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Now, more than ten years later, I find myself thinking
about her and missing her a lot. It seems like
such a waste to know someone so well and then
to not be in each other's lives. I would love
to see if we can record style and be in
each other's lives again, But every time I think about
reaching out, I'm really scared to do it. She might
be really angry with me, she might not be interested
(04:17):
in seeing me. And also, what would it even look
like to be friends again so many years on? Should
I just accept this friendship is in the past.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Dear thing. I love this one because, just as we
were saying, I think it speaks to this quiet grief
that a lot of people experience with the loss of
friendships that can be just as painful as romantic relationships.
And I think, particularly when we get to mid life,
you know life has pulled us in so many directions
with careers and partners, marriages, divorces, kids, aging, parents, hormones,
(04:52):
and and sometimes we wake up and we hardly realize
that friendship's gone, but suddenly it has, you know, it's
time goes past.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You're suddenly like, we haven't spoken in month, month, and
then it feels too long, and then.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, so I think, I mean, this is more
of nostalgia than what she's describing. It's more of a longing,
isn't it. And that's more of unfinished business that obviously
she did value that friendship and perhaps it could play
a role in her life. Now reaching out is really scary.
I mean I think absolutely why not, because at the
(05:28):
end of the day, you'll get an answer either way.
I mean, you might not get any response. You might
get a cold response, but you also might get a
really warm Oh my gosh, I've been thinking about texting
you and I haven't. Oh, that was such a nice surprise.
I'd love to see you, and you know, you don't
need to go into that with any expectations beyond hey,
(05:50):
I've been thinking about you. It's been so long. Would
you like to have a coffee and leave it at
that and see what happens, and will it be exactly
the same? I know that person said, you know what,
will it even look like? It may not be the same,
but it may be great and adult like and different
and better. Who knows.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I think that sometimes people are scared if you're someone
who's very uncomfortable with confrontation. A lot lots of women
are I mean not all.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Of course, but a lot us.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, you're scared that what if she's angry? That's one
of the things they said, like, what if there's a scene,
what if there's a drama, what if she says things
that will hurt me? Like it sounds scary, but is
this just a case of like you just got to
pull on your big girl pants and be like, well,
maybe that will happen.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Well, we have this negativity bias in our brain to
always think the worst in every situation because that's very protective.
Means we don't take action and so we don't get hurt.
But also we're sitting here without a friendship that potentially
is great. So it's always that that case of yeah,
it looks she could be angry. Like I'm not going
(06:59):
to deny that. I don't tell people, no, everything will
be great and she'll definitely don't know, but what if
she's not, And so that's what you've got a way up.
But obviously this friendship was really valuable to this person,
and so potentially it's worth that risk of an angry
message coming back. But then she has her answer as well, Okay,
(07:22):
we're not in the same headspace, she's angry. I'll leave
it there. Okay, text message is okay in this situation. Oh,
As someone who also doesn't like confrontation.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Probably yes, I think you've been thinking about you, like
something honest, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Because I don't like the cold call in general. And
if this hasn't been these people haven't been speaking for years.
I don't know you've caught a mid kid pickup, Paul.
It could be a call, but that should be the first.
I think a text is a good way to start. Yes,
and yeah, I've been thinking about you. You know it's
been ages. Let's have a coffee.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Do you think it's possible for friends to get back together.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes, yeah, Yes, I've had a friendship that's that's gotten
back together. Have you a childhood friendship into say our
early twenties life pulled us apart for no reason. I mean,
there wasn't a conflict there as it happens I think
in many people in midlife. Facebook is great. And it
came up as a friend's suggestion in our early thirties,
(08:25):
and there I was trawling through all she's had kids
and all she looks the same, and reached out as
the friend request. So that was the first you know,
that's very non confrontational friend request was accepted. And then
now we're back in contact.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, And another just had a reason for that. I mean,
when we met up, it was like, oh gosh, I
have no idea what happened. It was just it was
so I traveled and then I got married, and then
you did this, and oh gosh, we've missed out on
all this time and now we have to catch up
and our kids have met and great, oh, how wonderful.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
All right, listener, you've got an answer there. Okay, this
is a good one. Blaming Perry for being a shitty friend.
One of my good friends has started being really awful,
cutting comments, angry outbursts, teary nights out after too much wine.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I think you know where I'm going with.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Both Perry, menopausal I swear, But after a particularly nasty
moment where she told me she thinks I'm an over
indulgent parent and that I need to get over my ex,
I asked her to stop speaking to me like that,
and she broke down, saying that it was hormones and
she didn't know who she is anymore or what's wrong
with her. She said she's getting help with that, but
there's a bit of me that can't forgive or forget
(09:40):
what she said. I think Perry is an excuse, and
she really thinks these things about me.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Do I walk away the good old it's not me,
it's my hormones excuse.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Like people used would before we could blame hormones. We
might be blaming the wine. You sometimes be like I
was drunk when I said that, And I always think
that that means you think.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
It, and that's I absolutely believe that. I think that
hormones might amplify volume like wine can exactly the same.
But I don't think that they write the script. And
so if your friend, in that moment, after a few
wines and yes hormonal, has come out and said, you know,
comments about your parenting and get over your ex, I
(10:24):
kind of think that that's what they are thinking. And look,
I think midlife friendships particularly are great because they do
in the end there's space to be really honest with
them and be able to say no, that really hurt me,
and have them a bit more intentional and authentic. Twenty
(10:44):
one year old might have me certainly just kind of
stewed on that or sucked it up. But I think
you know, when friendships are a little bit more intentional,
we can call that out. And look, this friend did
kind of crack and say, oh, I'm really sorry, and
she didn't double down. I mean, she did acknowledge that
(11:04):
was pretty shitty behavior. But I do think that, yes,
it's kind of amplified what they really think. So I
guess this comes down to the history and how much
you value that friendship, but also how many times this occurs.
And look, if she is getting help whatever that looks like.
I'm not sure whether that be know hormone replacement therapy
or or whether that be some psychological therapy or great
(11:27):
do it all. But then it's kind of waiting to
see how that shows up. And I I love the
expression two things can be true at once. You know
three or four things, multiple things can be true at once,
but you can have compassion for someone and you know, boundaries,
even though I hate that word. It's so cliched, but
(11:48):
even the psychologist hates the word boundaries.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
But you can.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, but you can. You can have boundaries, and I
would I would kind of tread with caution. Forgiveness does
not mean you pretend it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, that's interesting because also, you know what I think,
sometimes it's like when the when the mask slips and
someone does tell you something that you don't want to hear,
whether it's true or not. She maybe she is an
over indulgent parent, maybe she does need to get over X.
Well maybe not, or maybe on some days yes and
some days no. But sometimes I think, what doesn't really
matter that you think that, Like we all think all
kinds of things about each other, but I still like you,
(12:23):
and I'm still we're still friends, and you know what
I mean, I guess it depends how much that hurts you,
like how serious it is, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, And also we should get to the
point of maturity in friendships where I mean, my best
friend would have criticisms of me.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Like friends to keep them to keep their criticisms to themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Please, Well that's true, it doesn't actually come out and
say yeah, I'm sure she does have criticisms of me
as I do her. So so yes, we don't want
friends that think we're perfect. Yeah, so I totally agree.
The mask has slipped. So it comes down to the
individual person and saying, well, look, I know they think
that of me. Now is that going to impact now
the time we spend together. Yeah, well it will if
(13:05):
we keep having ones and it keeps coming up, it
will impact our girls night. But if it doesn't and
it stays there is a kind of one occurrence, I
don't think that that's reason to walk away.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You would advise our listener, though, to tell her friend
that how much it hurt her, like in a more
neutral setting, like you think, you know when you said before,
if your friendships are going to be authentic, we're old
enough to kind of be able to say, hey, that
really did hurt me.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, And that comes back to the confrontational piece, doesn't it.
You know, once the winds have worn off, people go, oh,
let's just leave that there. But if she hasn't done
that after that night, you know, in a sober way,
in a more neutral sense. I think she should reiterate
it absolutely. But you know, as I said, I think
that that's one of the beauty of you know, more
mature adult friendships is that we can say that really
(13:55):
hurt me, and the person can you know, needs to
show that she can reflect on that and respect you know,
those kind of boundaries that you know, it really hurt
that you think that of me. So yeah, she needs
to call that out in a neutral setting and then
just kind to proceed with caution. As I said, forgiveness
doesn't mean you forget it. It happened. Proceed with caution,
and let's just see whether that friend can be a
(14:17):
bit nicer in the future.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I like that, proceed with caution because if the friend
is really I mean, you know, and many of us
know how tough hormonal outbursts can be, Like sometimes you
really do feel like you're not yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, And I.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Have had at times in the over the little past
few at times when I get I have got unnecessarily
upset about something in front of people that afterwards I'm
mortified about. Not I haven't insulted, nothing like this, but
you know, in a professional setting, in a personal setting
where you just overreact and it is your hormones. And
then but you feel like you feel really like you
(14:58):
feel sort of shame about it and being like, I'm
really sorry, I really overreacted to that, and I do
feel a bit outside myself. I wonder, you know, like
it isn't an excuse and get out of jail free card,
but you kind of I think it's fair enough to
own it, right, Well.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
That's the difference. I think she's got to own it.
And as I said, this friend did crack in that
way and she didn't double down. And yeah, I know
as a psychologist that that perimenopause, menopause can affect sleep, mood,
even parts of personality, as it can our our you know,
teenage girls and other hormonal stages, and we do have
(15:39):
outbursts that are more intense, you know. Then mismatched they
to the situation. And maybe that was the final story
of a long day for that friend who dealt with
teenage teenagers in their house and their aging parents calling
them and her boss at work, and then that was it.
The over indulgent parenting friend was her line. But that's
(16:00):
the difference. She's got to own it. She's got to
say that was completely inappropriate, which it sounds like she did. Yeah,
you know, and that she's getting quote help, So see
where that goes.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Okay, up next, Claire's got some thoughts on how to
navigate friendships when you're both on opposite sides of the
political spectrum. I can't stand my friend's political opinions. I
have an old high school friend who I see a
few times a year, mostly at friends' birthdays in some
(16:30):
of barbecues, that kind of thing. We have lots of
mutual friends. The thing is, I find it increasingly hard
to be around her because of her very outspoken political opinions,
which are really different to mine. I had to mute
her on social media because I was just getting upset
about the things she was posting. But then that's awkward
because sometimes when I see her, she asks me if
I saw them after a couple of drinks.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It was a common theme. She always wants to have.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
A debate about the state of the world that I
know I will find upsetting. A lot of my friends
just roll their eyes and say that's just how she is.
But everything she thinks and feels and wants people to
agree with her about are the opposite of my values.
I don't want to fight with her, but I don't
want to stand by and let her go unchallenged. Do
our distance myself from the whole group? Do I say
(17:16):
I can't go if she's going to be there, or
do I say we just can't talk politics?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
This is the problem of our age, it really is.
This is really common. So to just comment broadly on this,
I mean, I'm just yeah, I get pretty down when
I think of just that polarization piece of when it
comes to politics, and if someone doesn't agree with our
view these days, we do have a tendency to slice
(17:45):
them off, card them out, like that political view is
one hundred percent of their identity and it's not.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's funny because you're right that I think that we're
much more likely to jump to sort of cancel a
friendship these days.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
We don't agree.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It depends a little bit how deep the issue is
for you, you know, like how how very important it
is for you. And if if you are deeply politically
engaged or invested in a particular cause or something, and
someone else belittles it or dismisses it or whatever, then
I can understand how that changes your perception of that
person a bit. You're like, you're not quite who I
thought you were. I think that's fine. But what I
(18:27):
think I hear in this dilemma, and it's quite familiar
to me because obviously part of my job is to
spout off about stuff and then sometimes on podcasts and
the like, and then sometimes I'll be at a barbecue
in a completely unrelated setting and someone will decide that
that would be really great to come and have a
row with me about whatever, you know, like climate change
or something, and I'm not in them, like, that's not
(18:49):
what I'm there for.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Those someone wanting therapy for me, and it's like that
I'm not interested in that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
In my personal life that I have some very good
friends who I know we disagree on some quite big things,
and to be honest, I do avoid it.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I do avoid those things because.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I don't if we get into it, it's going to
be so we just don't. But you can maintain that friends, yeah,
but I can maintain the friendship. And then I have
other friends who I love getting into political debates with,
you know, and we would do that for fun. But
the difference is how they donate it, right, it's how
they do it, how informed they are, how lightly or
(19:29):
not lightly they take it. I was at a dinner
recently where somebody came over to talk to me about
a particular issue, got and then didn't like what I
said about it. When she poked me on it, got
up and left the dinner. You've got like a lot
of different people who don't normally hang out together. It's like,
let's not talk about this stuff in this situation.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
You know, that was my take.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Anyway, I feel like it sounds like our listener is
kind of trying to play the let's just not talk
about it, but the other person is seeing it a
sport and likes to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
If you are going to talk politics, Like you said,
it's about having absolute, respectful discussion and not calling someone
an idiot because they don't understand and bolittle them. And
I think that's probably what's happening, and shoving it down
someone's throat or I think she said, you know, getting
annoyed when the friend doesn't get the room to agree
with her. Well, that's not debate, No, you don't just
(20:21):
you know, have a dummy spit when people have a
different opinion or don't agree, And I think you know,
those friendships can be really intense and overbearing, And as
you said, it depends on what the issue is. If
it's really misaligned with your values, I think it's probably
a good self care option to just mute her on
socials if that is all she's posting about and it
(20:43):
really is making your blood boil every time you open
the app, just just mute that. I think that that's
probably an adult like response. I don't think you need
to back away from the whole social group. She's saying
that she'd I just leave that friendship group. I think
that that would be a more immature response. I think
you can decide where your energy goes in a group
(21:04):
who you sit next to, you know, I think you
can be closer to sum in the group and distance
from her without withdrawing completely. Yeah, I like I like that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I like you saying you can decide where your energy
goes in a group, because when you're in a she says,
you know, they usually get together at birthdays and suber barbecues.
There are often lots of people there, and you can
choose broadly, like who you want to hang out with
in that group, and maybe you just always seem to
just be edging away from this person, like she's coming over, Like.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, definitely, But I think that there's that
happy medium between this person sounds like they are, you know,
just that after a few whines again badgering, kind of
shoving it down your throat and not reading the room.
And so I'm I'm kind of agreeing with the listener.
(21:56):
That sounds annoying. But at the same time, we've got
to just you know, put our big girl pants on
and be adults and try and work on her own
uh you know, reactions in tonally to that person. As
she said, the rest of the group roll their eyes.
How can we try and get a little bit closer
to that type of Nonchalantah, here she goes again. Oh well,
(22:17):
you know it's not my views. That's okay, walk away.
But that's what you've got to assess in the friendship. Yes,
in terms of like, all right, they have this view
that's completely diametrically opposed to my view on the world. There,
but ninety nine point nine percent of this person otherwise
is great. Yeah, you know, they add a lot of
(22:38):
value to my life when we don't talk about politics.
You know, it's great we have all these interest in common,
tis you know a great person otherwise, and adds that
you know, it's a very valuable friendship otherwise. So it's
that kind of assessment. But if you think they're really
not adding any other value, they actually just pissed me
off and annoy me because all they do is talk about,
you know, politics. Then you don't have to push all
(23:00):
or work hard at a friendship to maintain that. But
also don't feel like you have to be the one
to slink away and turn down invitations and not attend
the group. No, go and attend the group, but just
you know, and somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I've got a couple of little quick ones if you're
comfortable to do them. My friend never replies to my messages.
We get on great when we see each other, but
she leaves me on red all the time. It's really
beginning to upset me. Sometimes I'll message her about quite
serious or personal things and she doesn't really reply in
a timely manner. She always says it doesn't matter how
frequently real friends communicate, But I think it's rude. I've
(23:35):
spoken to her about my feelings and nothing changes. Do
you think sometimes we have different communication styles to our friends. Yes,
and that kind of friendship survived that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Oh look, it depends what you're messaging about, doesn't it.
Because I've absolutely got friendships where you know, my closest friends.
I mean, if we're just sharing a funny anecdote of
our day or memes or you know, funny photos or
chit chat and they don't get back to me, like,
(24:08):
totally cool that we've all Actually, my closest friendships are
are single mothers like me, so and running our own
businesses and no, no, no, there is zero expected so our
communications I was really aligned. And so we get that
as our expectations of each other is that we won't
reply for days and days and then we'll reply. We'll
(24:29):
have a flurry. Yeah that's right, and we're all on
the couch at the same time on the chat, so
that's totally fine. I also have other friendships where they
can come into my life after years, and I've had that,
you know, months or years, and they're probably not my
closest friends, but we can pick things up and it's
exactly the same. But that closest friendship I referred to
(24:50):
if I texted them, right, now and said I'm really
struggling need you Yeah, And there's there's three of us
in this group. I'm really struggling today for whatever reason.
I will get a reply very quickly. Yes, yeah, very quickly.
So they are there if I need them. So that's
the only bit that concerns me about that listener's message
(25:12):
is she's saying, I'm outpouring my feelings. Now if your
feeling's about you know, how crappy day was, or you
know a funny anecdote, how great that show was last night,
how great the TV show was. Well, you know, if
you don't get a timely response, life's busy. Don't put
those expectations on people for instant responses. If you're out
pouring feelings and you don't get anything at all, then
(25:35):
I would start to question, you know, that friendship in
terms of you're obviously someone who needs you know a
little bit more than that.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It's interesting because we do all have our different needs
in the way we communicate. One of my really good
friends as a caller, she loves to chat on the phone,
and I'm always.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Like, do it.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I just I mean, I can do it, and I
try and make myself do it because I know it
matters to her. But I would write, I would obviously
much write like we do it, you know, a check,
a check in text and a bit of back and
forth on text because who got time for long calls?
Because they're never short? Are they phone calls like that?
And again in crisis yes, but catch up no. But then,
(26:18):
because I know it's important to her, I do try
and make myself do it, So sometimes I think you
do have to. Like, and another one of my friends
loves a lot of banter in a group chat, and
sometimes I'm just too tired for that. There's too much
banter in other areas of my life, and I'm like,
and I can tell that sometimes she gets a bit
oh that you're not jumping in, so like, I don't know, God,
(26:39):
we've added a lot of complications to our lives with
all these different communication stuff. I would hate to think
that anybody took it all to sill, like as in, oh,
Holly hasn't got back to me, unless, as you say,
someone says I need you and I didn't get back
to them. If I just haven't got back to them
when they just were like, hey, look at this link
or whatever, then I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
No, you can't. You absolutely, yeah, you need to grow
up about that. As I said in the same different
varying chats on WhatsApp in star message, yeah, kind of
flipped between all of them. And it doesn't mean that
I haven't read it and had a chuckle at what
you've sent me at or you know, I have acknowledged
it internally. But I do need to have friendships in
(27:19):
my life that no, not yeah, well not to call.
I don't mind if if if someone really needs something
and then it ends up a bit of a longer chat,
but if they just call it. I had one this
week hey, and I was like, hey, here going She's
like yeah, good, And it was the middle of the
day and I'm like, yep, and you're waiting for the
drop things. What's the updates? So I'm like, I just can't.
(27:41):
I don't. No, So no, I'm not a I'm not
a chatter on the phone either, And you're right, this
person is and I have I have not picked up
There are times I haven't picked up the phone to her.
I've seen the name. I just can't right now because
she just wants a bit of a chat.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Another single mum actually and she's she's got kids, probably
different times to me. So she's at home. I've got
my kids and it's not working. But I have to
have friends. She does under stand that, though she could
kind of, you know, call me five times and then
on the sixth time, not consecutively, but over a period
of a few weeks, and then she's totally fine when
we catch up. She never says, so, I do have
(28:23):
to have friends that just get that and understand it.
But yeah, I think it depends on, Yeah, the content
of the messages. You have to have friends that are
reliable if you're struggling and they're not kind of like, oh,
I don't have time for that, because then what's you know,
the definition of a friendship and if they're not there
at those times, You're right, it can't be so laid
(28:44):
back that it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
After the break, Claire tells me the story of that
time her long time mate and bridesmade at whole wedding
Ouch just ghosted her. Talking about communication breakdowns, what about
if a friend ghosts you, what about you've been having
like regular communication and then you know, this woman is
(29:08):
worried about the factch Of doesn't reply quickly enough, but
what if they just start to disappear. Like ghosting is
such a big thing in romantic relationships these days, is
it also a big thing in our friendships?
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yes, and I think for female friendships, particularly because, like
we said, a lot of females are non confrontational and
we find it very hard to well, you know, it's
nerve racking to be able to tell a friend that
you don't want that friendship anymore and that you've chosen
some other path. But I think ghosting can happen in
(29:42):
two ways. I mean, I think that it can naturally occur,
particularly as changes go through life, moving house or moving
to somewhere else, and career changes and husbands, and that
can happen naturally over time, but it can just happen overnight.
You know, I had a friendship of almost twenty years
(30:05):
brides made at my wedding, and I can tell you
the last phone call we had where I thought everything
was fine and never heard from her from the next
day onwards.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
What do you mean? And I can't like you you
I were like friends for twenty years, she's your bridesmaid.
You're having a conversation on the phone and then what
the next day, she just didn't reply to a message,
and that just went on and on block to me
and blocked. Chin, did you ever find out why? No?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
And it's that that lack of closure is that occurred
around the breakdown of my marriage.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
She said, there's two things were connected.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Possibly, Yeah, yes, I do, Yes, I do. Yes. It
occurred around the you know, and I'm talking like the
week of the breakdown of my marriage.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
So you were dealing with the breakdown of your marriage
and the loss of a very good friend.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yes, and in terms of grief and pain, there was
some arguing and you know, communication obviously there still is
with the father of my children, there was quicker closure
to that then there was of the friendship, far quick
in terms of moving through those stages of grief and
being able to have some reasoning as to why this
(31:14):
marriage failed and what was going on. But this friendship
ended seemingly overnight, and despite repeated for about two years,
not in any real harassing stalk away, but I you know, texted, called,
turned up at her house.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah wow, because I was so like, well, I was
about to ask you if you did those things, because yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
I just don't understand. I mean do I go to
her place of work, And that's what I thought.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
This is not do you have mutual friends that you
could Yes, and did you like how did that shake out?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
What about the other bridesmaids? Yes, exactly, and there was
a few mutual friends, and yes, the two were connected
in the sense that she chose to you know, still
have a friendship with now my ex husband and I
know that they're in contact, and my kids spend time
with her now on you know, because's she's in his
(32:12):
social circle. So I actually it's very strange. I actually
hear how her kids are doing and how she's through
my kids. They're like, oh, yes, such and such was there,
and you know, we went to the movies with such
and such, and but not having the opportunity for her
to be able to say whatever her issue was with
(32:34):
me and that I've chosen this path is extremely painful
four years old. I know, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
That actually is a really like it's kind of tempting
to as we started talking about the beginning of this show,
it's almost tempting to make a bit of a light
of that bit of a joke about it, almost, but
that must be exceptionally painful because also you needed your
friends so much in that moment. I also find really
(33:02):
interesting about that. Didn't she want to tell you why
she was pissed off with you?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Like why she like, wouldn't there have been from her side,
like I want you to know why I'm doing this?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Do you know what I mean? Yeah? I don't know,
because she, like me, probably even more so, is non confrontational,
I would say, even more than me. I think in
that situation, I would recognize the importance of such a
huge call and life change that the other person deserves
to have a reason rather than just sit there with
(33:35):
this unanswered grief. And it is a form of grief,
I mean it absolutely. You know, for years she still
came in front of mine as the person I should
be calling and texting when things were falling apart or
at three am to shoot the text too or you know,
so to not have that there. It was like quicksand
for a while, like I was kind of you know,
(33:56):
rudderless in who do I turn to? But yes, not
having the answer I think was cruel. I think it
was cruel, and I think we can all not like confrontation,
but extra a letter or an email would have sufficed
over nothing. Yeah, just to say, look, I can't face you,
(34:16):
but here's what's going on and here are my feelings.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
This is calling us back to one of our earlier dilemmas,
right if it's sort of in the same way as
a romantic relationship. You know how we were talking about
whether or not ex friends can get back together. You
couldn't rekindle that relationship without the explanation, like you couldn't,
you know, we were we were saying, you know, can
you kind of you could get back together with an
ext friend, go for coffee and maybe not reprosecute everything
(34:42):
that happened. But you couldn't do that with that that's
much too deep that.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Oh my gosh, even thinking about that, I'm like, wow, yeah, no,
I absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
But did suddenly message you out of the blue, Like
if that friendship was ever going to be revived, this
would all have to be addressed. It's not like you
can just go, oh, well there go we had a blip.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
I would meet her out of curiosity, absolutely to hear
what she has to say. Still to this day it's
been four years. Want to know, want to reason? I
would definitely meet her. But there's the difference in the
two ghosting. So the first friendship that I resurrected, it
was just this, It wasn't really ghosting. It was a
natural you'd fallen out of each other's lives, and that's
(35:22):
what happened. But there was what happened.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
There wasn't heartbreak there, whereas with this one, again like
a remonte relateship, there was heartbreak there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, And that's you know, it's it's not dissimilar at all,
certainly not psychologically to you know, a partner, boyfriend's spouse.
Dumping someone or cutting them off or blocking them without
any explanation. I think that's really cruel, and I think
you owe it to them to at least come up
with something you know, it's not you, it's me, or
(35:51):
give them something where they can hold onto that and say, okay,
that's how they feel. But to just it literally ghost
and disappear out of someone's life like that, it's confusing
for me. But yet these stories happen, and I've known
other women who've had a sim more you know situations.
It's the unresolved part of it, just as it is
(36:15):
for a romantic relationship that hurts for a very long time.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah. I have great friends that man made in early
years at the kids' school, but as they've grown up,
the kids don't want to be friends anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
In fact, my daughter doesn't just not want to be
friends with one of my best friend's sons.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
She actually thinks he's a bit of a bad guy.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
She tells me things he says to other girls and
the inappropriate things he does behind his mum's back. And
now I don't know if I should talk to my
friend about it, or are our kids they're now almost seventeen,
sort of none of our business. It's making things awkward,
and I feel like I would want to know if
it was me.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
She says, seventeen. Yeah, they're none of your business. They're seventeen. No,
I think he said seven. Now they're almost seventeen.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
You can't force kids to be friends just because you're friends, Yes,
And I do see that with younger kids too, with
mums who are like but wouldn't it be great, particularly
if you've got like two girls and it's like, oh,
this would be so live. They're besties like we are.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
They're not best is you can't force it, and at seventeen, no, no,
you definitely can't force it. So she's saying that that
then this friend group, the kids now tell each tell
their parents things about each other too, So like this
boy or he's not very nice to his girlfriend or whatever,
should you should parents get involved in that business?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Generally? No, that's what I think. Yeah, I think generally.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
No. Obviously, some big red flag, like a big lines
big just like dangerous stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Correct, yep, yep. If someone's saying confining you and saying, mum,
you know such and such did this to his girlfriend,
it was completely yeah, across the line inappropriate dangerous stuff. Yes,
you have an obligation. You need to talk to your
friend about it. Say, Look, this is what i've heard.
Those situations are hard too, and I've dealt with with
(37:56):
clients who've come to me about that, and it has
called for the conversation because someone has been in a
risky situation and we've talked through the language of how
to do that in a very non judgmental, neutral Look,
this is what i've heard. Way, But other than that, No,
if they're particularly if they're over you know fourteen fifteen,
(38:17):
I would say you have to leave kids to work
that out. You can't make anyone be friends with anyone.
In fact, I think one of the best lessons for
kids in general, it's a very hard lesson, is that
not everyone will like you, and also you don't have
to like everyone else. Yeah, you know, and sometimes when
(38:38):
you kind of in primary school, there's this notion that
everyone should be friends. No, everyone should not be friends
because people don't get on. Yeah, I mean different. Yes,
everyone should treat each other with respect, but not everyone
should be friends. No. Of course, that's ludicrous to think that,
you know, the thirty kids in your class, you're going
to be friends with them all. It's a tough lesson
(38:58):
for kids to learn that, well do you like everyone? No,
Well guess what, not everyone's going to like you, and
that's okay.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's like, yeah, there's a really important lesson. Yeh.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Was very hard for adults.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
We're all running around all the time wanting everyone to
like us.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
So it's yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Particularly, I think that's a really really good way of
putting it into kids, which is like do you like everybody?
Because I have a fifteen year old daughter and the
friendship dramas that go on my goodness, and they're great,
Like she's great and her friends are mostly great. But
there's a lot of a lot of drama. And I'm
always just like, try and stay out of it as
much as you can, try not to be too But again,
(39:39):
it would be unrealistic to assume that they were all
loved each other sick all the time.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
No, yeah, that's right. But the difference is, and it's
you know, stereotypically a female thing is that if you
don't like each other and there's a clash there, well
that's fine. It's a neutral acceptance that that's okay, you're
not my person. But females then go that one step
further and overlay the drama with it. Yeah, s't. It
shouldn't have the drama. It should just be an acceptance of, well,
(40:06):
we don't really get on that well, and I'll say
hi out of respect to you, but that's it, and
that's okay. But the complications of drama of female relationships,
and you know, they start preschool, kindergarten, it's you know,
and they do continue into adult life, and particularly with
(40:28):
some women more than others.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I would say it because I have a boy and
a girl. Boys have drama too. It just looks different.
It looks different like they definitely do. There's there's exclusion. Yes,
there's talking about there's there's talking about each other behind
their backs. That that all happens. It's just it just
has a slightly different tone to it somehow.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Or they're not just smugging in all together on the
handball court. That handball court is a you know, he
is the fertile grand around for exclusion.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
And they also know how to push each other's buttons.
It's just I don't know. It just has a slightly
different flavor to it. And there doesn't seem to be
quite so much relishing because sometimes I would saying to Matilda,
like what are you mates?
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Talk about it? And she'll be like, drama. But that's
the thing. And if there's no drama, we need to
create the drama because what we going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
And that's the whole premise of reality television. That's it.
That has been a really good chat. Yeah, thank you
so much. I hope we've solved a few friendship dilemmas
for our listeners and it's been really good to talk
to you, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
It's been great. Thanks for having me, MIDS.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Thank you so much for being my friends as we've
worked our way through these dilemmas that you've so generously
shared with me. If you want to learn more about
Clairo's work, please follow the link in the show notes.
And as I told you at the beginning of this conversation,
this is our last episode of season six. We're going
to be back in your ears in a month or
so with season seven, and believe me, you're not going
(41:58):
to want to miss it.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I am calling up some.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Of my very favorite grown up women for some big,
deep conversations, So please follow or subscribe to wherever you're
listening to this right now, Like, do whatever you need
to do to make sure you don't miss out when
we come back with more mid, and always throw us
a rating or a review. We love it helps people
find our show. Mid Is Conversations for gen X women
who are anything but.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
People like you, I think massive.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Thank you to our team who helped us put this
show together. Executive producer of Mid is Niama Brown. Our
senior producer is Charlie Blackman, and we have audio design
by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Bye.
So you're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. Like romantic love, we
write songs about it, TV shows and books and endless
appreciative social media posts. Like romantic love, we know it's
good for us, helps us live longer, stay happier, makes
us more connected, provides us scaffolding for our lives to
(00:34):
climb and grow alongside. Friendship is meant to be one
of the less complicated loves of our lives. Just ask
Carrie Bradshaw about that, and friendship is one of its
great choice. But also, like romantic love, friendship can break
our hearts, keep us awake at night, whip us into
an indignant I told you so frenzy, confuse us, and
(00:57):
leave us questioning what we've done, said and endured. I'm
Holly Wainwright and I am Mid. Welcome to Mid, the
show for gen X women who are anything. But you
might know already that on this season of the show,
we are talking through your dilemmas, and up until now
I've caught up some very clever people to talk through
(01:18):
your questions on everything from weight and tweakments to divorce
and dating and now today friendship. How does it feel
if your best friend suddenly ghosts you? Can you cold
call an ex best friend? What do you do if
the person you've shared so much with the years suddenly
seems to believe in everything you don't? And can we
(01:39):
blame our hormones for being a shitty friend? This week,
I'm joined by a very smart psychologist called Claire Row
to help us chew over these questions. Claire is the
leading Australian psychologist. She's also a speaker and a writer,
and as you're going to find out on today's show,
she also has a friendship breakdown story of our own
(02:01):
that is kind of astounding.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
It's the only word I can find for it.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Before we get into this episode, though, I need to
tell you that this is the last step set of
season six. Ad mid We're going to be back in
a couple of months with an absolute doozy of a
season seven. We're working on it now and we're going
to come back to big conversations with truly incredible grown
up women, and my god, you're going to love it.
I can't wait to tell you about some of the
people we've got lined up. But until then, hold my
(02:28):
hand and let's jump into some sticky friendship problems with Clavro.
I get so many friendship questions and stories. I feel
like it's an area of our life that we know
is so important and we get so much from our
female friends, but also can sometimes be a bit fraught.
And yeah, I always say that I think that friendship
(02:48):
breakups and friendship problems can be just as painful as
romantic ones.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
One hundred agree, one hundred percent. I mean they, Oh,
I know from personal experience, they can be messy and
painful and complicated and drawn out, like drawn out ghosting,
and there's no big fight sometimes and there's no mixtape
crying in that way, and sometimes a lack of closure
(03:14):
and confusion. So absolutely, you know, best friendships ending can
be really painful. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Absolutely, So let's jump into some of the dilemmas that
the mid listeners center about friendship. Okay, I want to
get back together with my ex best friend, so our
listener writes, I used to be exceptionally close with a
woman I met through work when we were both in
our early twenties. We used to spend Christmases together. I
live away from my family, holiday together, even shared an
(03:42):
apartment once. I could never have imagined that we would
split up, but we did. Our life circumstances changed. She
had kids before me, she was in a relationship with
a man I didn't really like, and we sort of
drifted apart and.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Then fell apart.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Now, more than ten years later, I find myself thinking
about her and missing her a lot. It seems like
such a waste to know someone so well and then
to not be in each other's lives. I would love
to see if we can record style and be in
each other's lives again, But every time I think about
reaching out, I'm really scared to do it. She might
be really angry with me, she might not be interested
(04:17):
in seeing me. And also, what would it even look
like to be friends again so many years on? Should
I just accept this friendship is in the past.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Dear thing. I love this one because, just as we
were saying, I think it speaks to this quiet grief
that a lot of people experience with the loss of
friendships that can be just as painful as romantic relationships.
And I think, particularly when we get to mid life,
you know life has pulled us in so many directions
with careers and partners, marriages, divorces, kids, aging, parents, hormones,
(04:52):
and and sometimes we wake up and we hardly realize
that friendship's gone, but suddenly it has, you know, it's
time goes past.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You're suddenly like, we haven't spoken in month, month, and
then it feels too long, and then.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, yeah, so I think, I mean, this is more
of nostalgia than what she's describing. It's more of a longing,
isn't it. And that's more of unfinished business that obviously
she did value that friendship and perhaps it could play
a role in her life. Now reaching out is really scary.
I mean I think absolutely why not, because at the
(05:28):
end of the day, you'll get an answer either way.
I mean, you might not get any response. You might
get a cold response, but you also might get a
really warm Oh my gosh, I've been thinking about texting
you and I haven't. Oh, that was such a nice surprise.
I'd love to see you, and you know, you don't
need to go into that with any expectations beyond hey,
(05:50):
I've been thinking about you. It's been so long. Would
you like to have a coffee and leave it at
that and see what happens, and will it be exactly
the same? I know that person said, you know what,
will it even look like? It may not be the same,
but it may be great and adult like and different
and better. Who knows.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I think that sometimes people are scared if you're someone
who's very uncomfortable with confrontation. A lot lots of women
are I mean not all.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Of course, but a lot us.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, you're scared that what if she's angry? That's one
of the things they said, like, what if there's a scene,
what if there's a drama, what if she says things
that will hurt me? Like it sounds scary, but is
this just a case of like you just got to
pull on your big girl pants and be like, well,
maybe that will happen.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Well, we have this negativity bias in our brain to
always think the worst in every situation because that's very protective.
Means we don't take action and so we don't get hurt.
But also we're sitting here without a friendship that potentially
is great. So it's always that that case of yeah,
it looks she could be angry. Like I'm not going
(06:59):
to deny that. I don't tell people, no, everything will
be great and she'll definitely don't know, but what if
she's not, And so that's what you've got a way up.
But obviously this friendship was really valuable to this person,
and so potentially it's worth that risk of an angry
message coming back. But then she has her answer as well, Okay,
(07:22):
we're not in the same headspace, she's angry. I'll leave
it there. Okay, text message is okay in this situation. Oh,
As someone who also doesn't like confrontation.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Probably yes, I think you've been thinking about you, like
something honest, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Because I don't like the cold call in general. And
if this hasn't been these people haven't been speaking for years.
I don't know you've caught a mid kid pickup, Paul.
It could be a call, but that should be the first.
I think a text is a good way to start. Yes,
and yeah, I've been thinking about you. You know it's
been ages. Let's have a coffee.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Do you think it's possible for friends to get back together.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Yes, yeah, Yes, I've had a friendship that's that's gotten
back together. Have you a childhood friendship into say our
early twenties life pulled us apart for no reason. I mean,
there wasn't a conflict there as it happens I think
in many people in midlife. Facebook is great. And it
came up as a friend's suggestion in our early thirties,
(08:25):
and there I was trawling through all she's had kids
and all she looks the same, and reached out as
the friend request. So that was the first you know,
that's very non confrontational friend request was accepted. And then
now we're back in contact.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah, And another just had a reason for that. I mean,
when we met up, it was like, oh gosh, I
have no idea what happened. It was just it was
so I traveled and then I got married, and then
you did this, and oh gosh, we've missed out on
all this time and now we have to catch up
and our kids have met and great, oh, how wonderful.
I like that.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
All right, listener, you've got an answer there. Okay, this
is a good one. Blaming Perry for being a shitty friend.
One of my good friends has started being really awful,
cutting comments, angry outbursts, teary nights out after too much wine.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
I think you know where I'm going with.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Both Perry, menopausal I swear, But after a particularly nasty
moment where she told me she thinks I'm an over
indulgent parent and that I need to get over my ex,
I asked her to stop speaking to me like that,
and she broke down, saying that it was hormones and
she didn't know who she is anymore or what's wrong
with her. She said she's getting help with that, but
there's a bit of me that can't forgive or forget
(09:40):
what she said. I think Perry is an excuse, and
she really thinks these things about me.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Do I walk away the good old it's not me,
it's my hormones excuse.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Like people used would before we could blame hormones. We
might be blaming the wine. You sometimes be like I
was drunk when I said that, And I always think
that that means you think.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
It, and that's I absolutely believe that. I think that
hormones might amplify volume like wine can exactly the same.
But I don't think that they write the script. And
so if your friend, in that moment, after a few
wines and yes hormonal, has come out and said, you know,
comments about your parenting and get over your ex, I
(10:24):
kind of think that that's what they are thinking. And look,
I think midlife friendships particularly are great because they do
in the end there's space to be really honest with
them and be able to say no, that really hurt me,
and have them a bit more intentional and authentic. Twenty
(10:44):
one year old might have me certainly just kind of
stewed on that or sucked it up. But I think
you know, when friendships are a little bit more intentional,
we can call that out. And look, this friend did
kind of crack and say, oh, I'm really sorry, and
she didn't double down. I mean, she did acknowledge that
(11:04):
was pretty shitty behavior. But I do think that, yes,
it's kind of amplified what they really think. So I
guess this comes down to the history and how much
you value that friendship, but also how many times this occurs.
And look, if she is getting help whatever that looks like.
I'm not sure whether that be know hormone replacement therapy
or or whether that be some psychological therapy or great
(11:27):
do it all. But then it's kind of waiting to
see how that shows up. And I I love the
expression two things can be true at once. You know
three or four things, multiple things can be true at once,
but you can have compassion for someone and you know, boundaries,
even though I hate that word. It's so cliched, but
(11:48):
even the psychologist hates the word boundaries.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
But you can.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, but you can. You can have boundaries, and I
would I would kind of tread with caution. Forgiveness does
not mean you pretend it didn't happen.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Yeah, that's interesting because also, you know what I think,
sometimes it's like when the when the mask slips and
someone does tell you something that you don't want to hear,
whether it's true or not. She maybe she is an
over indulgent parent, maybe she does need to get over X.
Well maybe not, or maybe on some days yes and
some days no. But sometimes I think, what doesn't really
matter that you think that, Like we all think all
kinds of things about each other, but I still like you,
(12:23):
and I'm still we're still friends, and you know what
I mean, I guess it depends how much that hurts you,
like how serious it is, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (12:32):
Yeah? Yeah, absolutely, And also we should get to the
point of maturity in friendships where I mean, my best
friend would have criticisms of me.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Like friends to keep them to keep their criticisms to themselves.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Please, Well that's true, it doesn't actually come out and
say yeah, I'm sure she does have criticisms of me
as I do her. So so yes, we don't want
friends that think we're perfect. Yeah, so I totally agree.
The mask has slipped. So it comes down to the
individual person and saying, well, look, I know they think
that of me. Now is that going to impact now
the time we spend together. Yeah, well it will if
(13:05):
we keep having ones and it keeps coming up, it
will impact our girls night. But if it doesn't and
it stays there is a kind of one occurrence, I
don't think that that's reason to walk away.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You would advise our listener, though, to tell her friend
that how much it hurt her, like in a more
neutral setting, like you think, you know when you said before,
if your friendships are going to be authentic, we're old
enough to kind of be able to say, hey, that
really did hurt me.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Yeah, And that comes back to the confrontational piece, doesn't it.
You know, once the winds have worn off, people go, oh,
let's just leave that there. But if she hasn't done
that after that night, you know, in a sober way,
in a more neutral sense. I think she should reiterate
it absolutely. But you know, as I said, I think
that that's one of the beauty of you know, more
mature adult friendships is that we can say that really
(13:55):
hurt me, and the person can you know, needs to
show that she can reflect on that and respect you know,
those kind of boundaries that you know, it really hurt
that you think that of me. So yeah, she needs
to call that out in a neutral setting and then
just kind to proceed with caution. As I said, forgiveness
doesn't mean you forget it. It happened. Proceed with caution,
and let's just see whether that friend can be a
(14:17):
bit nicer in the future.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
I like that, proceed with caution because if the friend
is really I mean, you know, and many of us
know how tough hormonal outbursts can be, Like sometimes you
really do feel like you're not yourself.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Yeah, And I.
Speaker 2 (14:34):
Have had at times in the over the little past
few at times when I get I have got unnecessarily
upset about something in front of people that afterwards I'm
mortified about. Not I haven't insulted, nothing like this, but
you know, in a professional setting, in a personal setting
where you just overreact and it is your hormones. And
then but you feel like you feel really like you
(14:58):
feel sort of shame about it and being like, I'm
really sorry, I really overreacted to that, and I do
feel a bit outside myself. I wonder, you know, like
it isn't an excuse and get out of jail free card,
but you kind of I think it's fair enough to
own it, right, Well.
Speaker 1 (15:16):
That's the difference. I think she's got to own it.
And as I said, this friend did crack in that
way and she didn't double down. And yeah, I know
as a psychologist that that perimenopause, menopause can affect sleep, mood,
even parts of personality, as it can our our you know,
teenage girls and other hormonal stages, and we do have
(15:39):
outbursts that are more intense, you know. Then mismatched they
to the situation. And maybe that was the final story
of a long day for that friend who dealt with
teenage teenagers in their house and their aging parents calling
them and her boss at work, and then that was it.
The over indulgent parenting friend was her line. But that's
(16:00):
the difference. She's got to own it. She's got to
say that was completely inappropriate, which it sounds like she did. Yeah,
you know, and that she's getting quote help, So see
where that goes.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Okay, up next, Claire's got some thoughts on how to
navigate friendships when you're both on opposite sides of the
political spectrum. I can't stand my friend's political opinions. I
have an old high school friend who I see a
few times a year, mostly at friends' birthdays in some
(16:30):
of barbecues, that kind of thing. We have lots of
mutual friends. The thing is, I find it increasingly hard
to be around her because of her very outspoken political opinions,
which are really different to mine. I had to mute
her on social media because I was just getting upset
about the things she was posting. But then that's awkward
because sometimes when I see her, she asks me if
I saw them after a couple of drinks.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
It was a common theme. She always wants to have.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
A debate about the state of the world that I
know I will find upsetting. A lot of my friends
just roll their eyes and say that's just how she is.
But everything she thinks and feels and wants people to
agree with her about are the opposite of my values.
I don't want to fight with her, but I don't
want to stand by and let her go unchallenged. Do
our distance myself from the whole group? Do I say
(17:16):
I can't go if she's going to be there, or
do I say we just can't talk politics?
Speaker 1 (17:22):
This is the problem of our age, it really is.
This is really common. So to just comment broadly on this,
I mean, I'm just yeah, I get pretty down when
I think of just that polarization piece of when it
comes to politics, and if someone doesn't agree with our
view these days, we do have a tendency to slice
(17:45):
them off, card them out, like that political view is
one hundred percent of their identity and it's not.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's funny because you're right that I think that we're
much more likely to jump to sort of cancel a
friendship these days.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
We don't agree.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It depends a little bit how deep the issue is
for you, you know, like how how very important it
is for you. And if if you are deeply politically
engaged or invested in a particular cause or something, and
someone else belittles it or dismisses it or whatever, then
I can understand how that changes your perception of that
person a bit. You're like, you're not quite who I
thought you were. I think that's fine. But what I
(18:27):
think I hear in this dilemma, and it's quite familiar
to me because obviously part of my job is to
spout off about stuff and then sometimes on podcasts and
the like, and then sometimes I'll be at a barbecue
in a completely unrelated setting and someone will decide that
that would be really great to come and have a
row with me about whatever, you know, like climate change
or something, and I'm not in them, like, that's not
(18:49):
what I'm there for.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Those someone wanting therapy for me, and it's like that
I'm not interested in that.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
In my personal life that I have some very good
friends who I know we disagree on some quite big things,
and to be honest, I do avoid it.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I do avoid those things because.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I don't if we get into it, it's going to
be so we just don't. But you can maintain that friends, yeah,
but I can maintain the friendship. And then I have
other friends who I love getting into political debates with,
you know, and we would do that for fun. But
the difference is how they donate it, right, it's how
they do it, how informed they are, how lightly or
(19:29):
not lightly they take it. I was at a dinner
recently where somebody came over to talk to me about
a particular issue, got and then didn't like what I
said about it. When she poked me on it, got
up and left the dinner. You've got like a lot
of different people who don't normally hang out together. It's like,
let's not talk about this stuff in this situation.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
You know, that was my take.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Anyway, I feel like it sounds like our listener is
kind of trying to play the let's just not talk
about it, but the other person is seeing it a
sport and likes to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
If you are going to talk politics, Like you said,
it's about having absolute, respectful discussion and not calling someone
an idiot because they don't understand and bolittle them. And
I think that's probably what's happening, and shoving it down
someone's throat or I think she said, you know, getting
annoyed when the friend doesn't get the room to agree
with her. Well, that's not debate, No, you don't just
(20:21):
you know, have a dummy spit when people have a
different opinion or don't agree, And I think you know,
those friendships can be really intense and overbearing, And as
you said, it depends on what the issue is. If
it's really misaligned with your values, I think it's probably
a good self care option to just mute her on
socials if that is all she's posting about and it
(20:43):
really is making your blood boil every time you open
the app, just just mute that. I think that that's
probably an adult like response. I don't think you need
to back away from the whole social group. She's saying
that she'd I just leave that friendship group. I think
that that would be a more immature response. I think
you can decide where your energy goes in a group
(21:04):
who you sit next to, you know, I think you
can be closer to sum in the group and distance
from her without withdrawing completely. Yeah, I like I like that.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I like you saying you can decide where your energy
goes in a group, because when you're in a she says,
you know, they usually get together at birthdays and suber barbecues.
There are often lots of people there, and you can
choose broadly, like who you want to hang out with
in that group, and maybe you just always seem to
just be edging away from this person, like she's coming over, Like.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, definitely, But I think that there's that
happy medium between this person sounds like they are, you know,
just that after a few whines again badgering, kind of
shoving it down your throat and not reading the room.
And so I'm I'm kind of agreeing with the listener.
(21:56):
That sounds annoying. But at the same time, we've got
to just you know, put our big girl pants on
and be adults and try and work on her own
uh you know, reactions in tonally to that person. As
she said, the rest of the group roll their eyes.
How can we try and get a little bit closer
to that type of Nonchalantah, here she goes again. Oh well,
(22:17):
you know it's not my views. That's okay, walk away.
But that's what you've got to assess in the friendship. Yes,
in terms of like, all right, they have this view
that's completely diametrically opposed to my view on the world. There,
but ninety nine point nine percent of this person otherwise
is great. Yeah, you know, they add a lot of
(22:38):
value to my life when we don't talk about politics.
You know, it's great we have all these interest in common,
tis you know a great person otherwise, and adds that
you know, it's a very valuable friendship otherwise. So it's
that kind of assessment. But if you think they're really
not adding any other value, they actually just pissed me
off and annoy me because all they do is talk about,
you know, politics. Then you don't have to push all
(23:00):
or work hard at a friendship to maintain that. But
also don't feel like you have to be the one
to slink away and turn down invitations and not attend
the group. No, go and attend the group, but just
you know, and somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I've got a couple of little quick ones if you're
comfortable to do them. My friend never replies to my messages.
We get on great when we see each other, but
she leaves me on red all the time. It's really
beginning to upset me. Sometimes I'll message her about quite
serious or personal things and she doesn't really reply in
a timely manner. She always says it doesn't matter how
frequently real friends communicate, But I think it's rude. I've
(23:35):
spoken to her about my feelings and nothing changes. Do
you think sometimes we have different communication styles to our friends. Yes,
and that kind of friendship survived that.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Oh look, it depends what you're messaging about, doesn't it.
Because I've absolutely got friendships where you know, my closest friends.
I mean, if we're just sharing a funny anecdote of
our day or memes or you know, funny photos or
chit chat and they don't get back to me, like,
(24:08):
totally cool that we've all Actually, my closest friendships are
are single mothers like me, so and running our own
businesses and no, no, no, there is zero expected so our
communications I was really aligned. And so we get that
as our expectations of each other is that we won't
reply for days and days and then we'll reply. We'll
(24:29):
have a flurry. Yeah that's right, and we're all on
the couch at the same time on the chat, so
that's totally fine. I also have other friendships where they
can come into my life after years, and I've had that,
you know, months or years, and they're probably not my
closest friends, but we can pick things up and it's
exactly the same. But that closest friendship I referred to
(24:50):
if I texted them, right, now and said I'm really
struggling need you Yeah, And there's there's three of us
in this group. I'm really struggling today for whatever reason.
I will get a reply very quickly. Yes, yeah, very quickly.
So they are there if I need them. So that's
the only bit that concerns me about that listener's message
(25:12):
is she's saying, I'm outpouring my feelings. Now if your
feeling's about you know, how crappy day was, or you
know a funny anecdote, how great that show was last night,
how great the TV show was. Well, you know, if
you don't get a timely response, life's busy. Don't put
those expectations on people for instant responses. If you're out
pouring feelings and you don't get anything at all, then
(25:35):
I would start to question, you know, that friendship in
terms of you're obviously someone who needs you know a
little bit more than that.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It's interesting because we do all have our different needs
in the way we communicate. One of my really good
friends as a caller, she loves to chat on the phone,
and I'm always.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Like, do it.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I just I mean, I can do it, and I
try and make myself do it because I know it
matters to her. But I would write, I would obviously
much write like we do it, you know, a check,
a check in text and a bit of back and
forth on text because who got time for long calls?
Because they're never short? Are they phone calls like that?
And again in crisis yes, but catch up no. But then,
(26:18):
because I know it's important to her, I do try
and make myself do it, So sometimes I think you
do have to. Like, and another one of my friends
loves a lot of banter in a group chat, and
sometimes I'm just too tired for that. There's too much
banter in other areas of my life, and I'm like,
and I can tell that sometimes she gets a bit
oh that you're not jumping in, so like, I don't know, God,
(26:39):
we've added a lot of complications to our lives with
all these different communication stuff. I would hate to think
that anybody took it all to sill, like as in, oh,
Holly hasn't got back to me, unless, as you say,
someone says I need you and I didn't get back
to them. If I just haven't got back to them
when they just were like, hey, look at this link
or whatever, then I mean.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
No, you can't. You absolutely, yeah, you need to grow
up about that. As I said in the same different
varying chats on WhatsApp in star message, yeah, kind of
flipped between all of them. And it doesn't mean that
I haven't read it and had a chuckle at what
you've sent me at or you know, I have acknowledged
it internally. But I do need to have friendships in
(27:19):
my life that no, not yeah, well not to call.
I don't mind if if if someone really needs something
and then it ends up a bit of a longer chat,
but if they just call it. I had one this
week hey, and I was like, hey, here going She's
like yeah, good, And it was the middle of the
day and I'm like, yep, and you're waiting for the
drop things. What's the updates? So I'm like, I just can't.
(27:41):
I don't. No, So no, I'm not a I'm not
a chatter on the phone either, And you're right, this
person is and I have I have not picked up
There are times I haven't picked up the phone to her.
I've seen the name. I just can't right now because
she just wants a bit of a chat.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Another single mum actually and she's she's got kids, probably
different times to me. So she's at home. I've got
my kids and it's not working. But I have to
have friends. She does under stand that, though she could
kind of, you know, call me five times and then
on the sixth time, not consecutively, but over a period
of a few weeks, and then she's totally fine when
we catch up. She never says, so, I do have
(28:23):
to have friends that just get that and understand it.
But yeah, I think it depends on, Yeah, the content
of the messages. You have to have friends that are
reliable if you're struggling and they're not kind of like, oh,
I don't have time for that, because then what's you know,
the definition of a friendship and if they're not there
at those times, You're right, it can't be so laid
(28:44):
back that it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
After the break, Claire tells me the story of that
time her long time mate and bridesmade at whole wedding
Ouch just ghosted her. Talking about communication breakdowns, what about
if a friend ghosts you, what about you've been having
like regular communication and then you know, this woman is
(29:08):
worried about the factch Of doesn't reply quickly enough, but
what if they just start to disappear. Like ghosting is
such a big thing in romantic relationships these days, is
it also a big thing in our friendships?
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Yes, and I think for female friendships, particularly because, like
we said, a lot of females are non confrontational and
we find it very hard to well, you know, it's
nerve racking to be able to tell a friend that
you don't want that friendship anymore and that you've chosen
some other path. But I think ghosting can happen in
(29:42):
two ways. I mean, I think that it can naturally occur,
particularly as changes go through life, moving house or moving
to somewhere else, and career changes and husbands, and that
can happen naturally over time, but it can just happen overnight.
You know, I had a friendship of almost twenty years
(30:05):
brides made at my wedding, and I can tell you
the last phone call we had where I thought everything
was fine and never heard from her from the next
day onwards.
Speaker 2 (30:15):
What do you mean? And I can't like you you
I were like friends for twenty years, she's your bridesmaid.
You're having a conversation on the phone and then what
the next day, she just didn't reply to a message,
and that just went on and on block to me
and blocked. Chin, did you ever find out why? No?
Speaker 1 (30:32):
And it's that that lack of closure is that occurred
around the breakdown of my marriage.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
She said, there's two things were connected.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
Possibly, Yeah, yes, I do, Yes, I do. Yes. It
occurred around the you know, and I'm talking like the
week of the breakdown of my marriage.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
So you were dealing with the breakdown of your marriage
and the loss of a very good friend.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Yes, and in terms of grief and pain, there was
some arguing and you know, communication obviously there still is
with the father of my children, there was quicker closure
to that then there was of the friendship, far quick
in terms of moving through those stages of grief and
being able to have some reasoning as to why this
(31:14):
marriage failed and what was going on. But this friendship
ended seemingly overnight, and despite repeated for about two years,
not in any real harassing stalk away, but I you know, texted, called,
turned up at her house.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah wow, because I was so like, well, I was
about to ask you if you did those things, because yes, yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
I just don't understand. I mean do I go to
her place of work, And that's what I thought.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
This is not do you have mutual friends that you
could Yes, and did you like how did that shake out?
Speaker 1 (31:50):
What about the other bridesmaids? Yes, exactly, and there was
a few mutual friends, and yes, the two were connected
in the sense that she chose to you know, still
have a friendship with now my ex husband and I
know that they're in contact, and my kids spend time
with her now on you know, because's she's in his
(32:12):
social circle. So I actually it's very strange. I actually
hear how her kids are doing and how she's through
my kids. They're like, oh, yes, such and such was there,
and you know, we went to the movies with such
and such, and but not having the opportunity for her
to be able to say whatever her issue was with
(32:34):
me and that I've chosen this path is extremely painful
four years old. I know, I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
That actually is a really like it's kind of tempting
to as we started talking about the beginning of this show,
it's almost tempting to make a bit of a light
of that bit of a joke about it, almost, but
that must be exceptionally painful because also you needed your
friends so much in that moment. I also find really
(33:02):
interesting about that. Didn't she want to tell you why
she was pissed off with you?
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Like why she like, wouldn't there have been from her side,
like I want you to know why I'm doing this?
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Do you know what I mean? Yeah? I don't know,
because she, like me, probably even more so, is non confrontational,
I would say, even more than me. I think in
that situation, I would recognize the importance of such a
huge call and life change that the other person deserves
to have a reason rather than just sit there with
(33:35):
this unanswered grief. And it is a form of grief,
I mean it absolutely. You know, for years she still
came in front of mine as the person I should
be calling and texting when things were falling apart or
at three am to shoot the text too or you know,
so to not have that there. It was like quicksand
for a while, like I was kind of you know,
(33:56):
rudderless in who do I turn to? But yes, not
having the answer I think was cruel. I think it
was cruel, and I think we can all not like confrontation,
but extra a letter or an email would have sufficed
over nothing. Yeah, just to say, look, I can't face you,
(34:16):
but here's what's going on and here are my feelings.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
This is calling us back to one of our earlier dilemmas,
right if it's sort of in the same way as
a romantic relationship. You know how we were talking about
whether or not ex friends can get back together. You
couldn't rekindle that relationship without the explanation, like you couldn't,
you know, we were we were saying, you know, can
you kind of you could get back together with an
ext friend, go for coffee and maybe not reprosecute everything
(34:42):
that happened. But you couldn't do that with that that's
much too deep that.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Oh my gosh, even thinking about that, I'm like, wow, yeah, no,
I absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
But did suddenly message you out of the blue, Like
if that friendship was ever going to be revived, this
would all have to be addressed. It's not like you
can just go, oh, well there go we had a blip.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
I would meet her out of curiosity, absolutely to hear
what she has to say. Still to this day it's
been four years. Want to know, want to reason? I
would definitely meet her. But there's the difference in the
two ghosting. So the first friendship that I resurrected, it
was just this, It wasn't really ghosting. It was a
natural you'd fallen out of each other's lives, and that's
(35:22):
what happened. But there was what happened.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
There wasn't heartbreak there, whereas with this one, again like
a remonte relateship, there was heartbreak there. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, And that's you know, it's it's not dissimilar at all,
certainly not psychologically to you know, a partner, boyfriend's spouse.
Dumping someone or cutting them off or blocking them without
any explanation. I think that's really cruel, and I think
you owe it to them to at least come up
with something you know, it's not you, it's me, or
(35:51):
give them something where they can hold onto that and say, okay,
that's how they feel. But to just it literally ghost
and disappear out of someone's life like that, it's confusing
for me. But yet these stories happen, and I've known
other women who've had a sim more you know situations.
It's the unresolved part of it, just as it is
(36:15):
for a romantic relationship that hurts for a very long time.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah. I have great friends that man made in early
years at the kids' school, but as they've grown up,
the kids don't want to be friends anymore.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
It's hard.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
In fact, my daughter doesn't just not want to be
friends with one of my best friend's sons.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
She actually thinks he's a bit of a bad guy.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
She tells me things he says to other girls and
the inappropriate things he does behind his mum's back. And
now I don't know if I should talk to my
friend about it, or are our kids they're now almost seventeen,
sort of none of our business. It's making things awkward,
and I feel like I would want to know if
it was me.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
She says, seventeen. Yeah, they're none of your business. They're seventeen. No,
I think he said seven. Now they're almost seventeen.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
You can't force kids to be friends just because you're friends, Yes,
And I do see that with younger kids too, with
mums who are like but wouldn't it be great, particularly
if you've got like two girls and it's like, oh,
this would be so live. They're besties like we are.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
They're not best is you can't force it, and at seventeen, no, no,
you definitely can't force it. So she's saying that that
then this friend group, the kids now tell each tell
their parents things about each other too, So like this
boy or he's not very nice to his girlfriend or whatever,
should you should parents get involved in that business?
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Generally? No, that's what I think. Yeah, I think generally.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
No. Obviously, some big red flag, like a big lines
big just like dangerous stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
Correct, yep, yep. If someone's saying confining you and saying, mum,
you know such and such did this to his girlfriend,
it was completely yeah, across the line inappropriate dangerous stuff. Yes,
you have an obligation. You need to talk to your
friend about it. Say, Look, this is what i've heard.
Those situations are hard too, and I've dealt with with
(37:56):
clients who've come to me about that, and it has
called for the conversation because someone has been in a
risky situation and we've talked through the language of how
to do that in a very non judgmental, neutral Look,
this is what i've heard. Way, But other than that, No,
if they're particularly if they're over you know fourteen fifteen,
(38:17):
I would say you have to leave kids to work
that out. You can't make anyone be friends with anyone.
In fact, I think one of the best lessons for
kids in general, it's a very hard lesson, is that
not everyone will like you, and also you don't have
to like everyone else. Yeah, you know, and sometimes when
(38:38):
you kind of in primary school, there's this notion that
everyone should be friends. No, everyone should not be friends
because people don't get on. Yeah, I mean different. Yes,
everyone should treat each other with respect, but not everyone
should be friends. No. Of course, that's ludicrous to think that,
you know, the thirty kids in your class, you're going
to be friends with them all. It's a tough lesson
(38:58):
for kids to learn that, well do you like everyone? No,
Well guess what, not everyone's going to like you, and
that's okay.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
It's like, yeah, there's a really important lesson. Yeh.
Speaker 1 (39:10):
Was very hard for adults.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
We're all running around all the time wanting everyone to
like us.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
So it's yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:16):
Particularly, I think that's a really really good way of
putting it into kids, which is like do you like everybody?
Because I have a fifteen year old daughter and the
friendship dramas that go on my goodness, and they're great,
Like she's great and her friends are mostly great. But
there's a lot of a lot of drama. And I'm
always just like, try and stay out of it as
much as you can, try not to be too But again,
(39:39):
it would be unrealistic to assume that they were all
loved each other sick all the time.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
No, yeah, that's right. But the difference is, and it's
you know, stereotypically a female thing is that if you
don't like each other and there's a clash there, well
that's fine. It's a neutral acceptance that that's okay, you're
not my person. But females then go that one step
further and overlay the drama with it. Yeah, s't. It
shouldn't have the drama. It should just be an acceptance of, well,
(40:06):
we don't really get on that well, and I'll say
hi out of respect to you, but that's it, and
that's okay. But the complications of drama of female relationships,
and you know, they start preschool, kindergarten, it's you know,
and they do continue into adult life, and particularly with
(40:28):
some women more than others.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
I would say it because I have a boy and
a girl. Boys have drama too. It just looks different.
It looks different like they definitely do. There's there's exclusion. Yes,
there's talking about there's there's talking about each other behind
their backs. That that all happens. It's just it just
has a slightly different tone to it somehow.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Or they're not just smugging in all together on the
handball court. That handball court is a you know, he
is the fertile grand around for exclusion.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
And they also know how to push each other's buttons.
It's just I don't know. It just has a slightly
different flavor to it. And there doesn't seem to be
quite so much relishing because sometimes I would saying to Matilda,
like what are you mates?
Speaker 1 (41:09):
Talk about it? And she'll be like, drama. But that's
the thing. And if there's no drama, we need to
create the drama because what we going to talk about.
Speaker 2 (41:18):
And that's the whole premise of reality television. That's it.
That has been a really good chat. Yeah, thank you
so much. I hope we've solved a few friendship dilemmas
for our listeners and it's been really good to talk
to you, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
It's been great. Thanks for having me, MIDS.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Thank you so much for being my friends as we've
worked our way through these dilemmas that you've so generously
shared with me. If you want to learn more about
Clairo's work, please follow the link in the show notes.
And as I told you at the beginning of this conversation,
this is our last episode of season six. We're going
to be back in your ears in a month or
so with season seven, and believe me, you're not going
(41:58):
to want to miss it.
Speaker 1 (41:59):
I am calling up some.
Speaker 2 (42:01):
Of my very favorite grown up women for some big,
deep conversations, So please follow or subscribe to wherever you're
listening to this right now, Like, do whatever you need
to do to make sure you don't miss out when
we come back with more mid, and always throw us
a rating or a review. We love it helps people
find our show. Mid Is Conversations for gen X women
who are anything but.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
People like you, I think massive.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Thank you to our team who helped us put this
show together. Executive producer of Mid is Niama Brown. Our
senior producer is Charlie Blackman, and we have audio design
by Jacob Brown.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Bye.
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