August 11, 2025 • 36 mins
In this season of MID, we are answering the dilemmas and questions that you, our listeners, have sent us.
This episode is all about divorce and separation—when it might be the right choice, what typically leads to it, and how to navigate it in the healthiest way possible. Our guest, Nikki Parkinson, has been through a divorce herself—an especially unique one—and now dedicates her work to helping others through their own journeys.
The dilemmas that Nikki & Holly tackle in this episode are:
- I have fallen out of love with my husband, but I don't know if I can afford life without him. What do I do?
- I’ve been divorced for almost two years, and my ex wants to introduce his new partner to our children. I think it's too soon, but he thinks I'm being jealous. Should he respect my wishes?
- I’m having an affair with someone I met at work, and the sex is amazing. Do I have to tell my husband?
- How do I know it’s really over with my partner of six years—my first same-sex relationship—when she says she’s unsure, has moved out, but still calls and comes back?
You can find out more about The Divorce and Separation Hub at the links below.
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CREDITS:
Guest: Nikki Parkinson
Host: Holly Wainwright
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma mea acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on. Does it take a year or two, or
three or ten or a lifetime to get over it?
I mean, does it take tough love or infinite empathy,
prolonged wallowing or pulling yourself together? Is there ever even
(00:34):
a choice? Is someone always to blame? What if it's me?
I'm Holly Wainwright and I am Mid. This season we're
talking about you and your dilemmas, and today we're talking
about divorce and separation. As always, I'm phoning a friend
to help us answer these big questions. And today's friend
(00:56):
is another returning guest of Mid, Nicki Parkinson. Back in
season three, Nicki came on and told me her story
in the most honest, bold and beautiful way. Seven years ago,
after a long period of being told by her husband
that are fears about their marriage to all in her head,
Nicki got an email that changed everything. Yes he was
(01:16):
having an affair, and yes her marriage was definitely over.
That episode really resonated with a lot of people because
since that devastating day, Nicki has been rebuilding her life
and then reaching back and helping other women going through
similar stuff. Separation and divorce was such an earth shattering,
all encompassing loss, she wanted to arm others with the
(01:38):
information she wished she had back at that time. And
she's also really passionate about letting women know that there
can be and often is certainly for her, a beautiful
life on the other side. These days, Nicki wears a
lot of separation related hats, making her the perfect person
to help answer your question. She's a ted X speaker,
but she's also a divorce dueler and coach. She is
(02:01):
also a family law expert and a parent's under pressure therapist,
and she is a mother of three. So we asked
Niki back on the show to go through your questions
and offer a little bit of her profound and practical wisdom. Niki, Welcome, Nikki.
You won't surprised, You'd know. I got a lot of
questions when I asked for dilemmas about divorce. It is
(02:22):
a bigger part of adult.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Life, especially in our mid season, right in our mid season.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And they're quite different, all at different sort of the
ones we've chosen to answer today are ones that are
quite different sort of phases, but I'm very much looking
forward to your wise words. So we'll kick off with
our first question from a listener. I have fallen out
of love with my husband. We've been together for nine
years and we are flatmates, not even flatmates really just cohabitas.
(02:52):
We have a son who is six, and he's all
we talk about or share these days. We don't fight,
We just don't even really interact except as parents. I
miss intimacy, and miss excitement, and miss having someone who
cares about my day. The problem is if we split up,
I don't know how I could afford life by myself.
Life so expensive. I know my son would suffer with
(03:12):
a drop standard of living. To be honest, I would
like to be divorced and give myself another chance at
making a different life, but I don't think I can
afford it. What should I do? This is really quite
common because people are very like life is. A single
parent is very expensive, as you would know. What are
(03:32):
your words of wisdom for this listener of ours?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Oh, it's so common, holy, because and I feel like
this is whilst this is a question about divorce and separation,
I feel like a lot of people are also feeling
this pinch, right, so cost of living is going up.
Being a single person living on a single wage is
really tricky. I would say to our listener, separate your
(04:00):
finances from your fear.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
To start with, that's interesting, Tell me what you tell
me about that.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Because it seems to me that she's got this real
fear around doing this solo. How am I going to cope?
I'm worried about my son. Am I going to afford it?
Where am I going to live? All of those types
of things. But if we peel it back just a
little bit more, and I wonder how she had this
(04:25):
conversation with her husband. I wonder if they're living as flatmates,
does he feel the same way? And then if we
do have that conversation, would it be surprising to her
that he might say something along the lines of, Okay,
how can we do this together? Because I'm all for
(04:46):
that amicable divorce and separation and doesn't often work that way.
But the fear of finances for women, particularly that are
going through a separation is so it is something that
seeps into your bones. I think because we earn less, right, yeah,
we have less in retirement and generally speaking, so then
(05:11):
how do we support our children with that? I would
also say to her something along the lines of, if
you are staying for your child, then what modeling are
we teaching your child? Are we then saying that we
have to settle because it's too fearful or too scary.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
On that point, because there's a few things there. But
if you're not unhappy, I mean, well, I was going
to say if you're not unhappy, but I mean our
listener is unhappy if she says I'd like to be
divorce to give myself another chance of making life. But
it's not like they're not fighting all the time. There's
no abuse they are. It doesn't sound like it's particularly
(05:59):
high stress. It's just very me. Do you think there's
a world in which you kind of can make an
arrangement almost like redefine your relationship but like, okay, this
isn't the big romantic love that maybe we started out with,
but let's stick it out until the kid grows up.
Like do people do that and does it ever work? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Absolutely, I've got clients that do a similar thing. So
they might live in the house together. It becomes tricky, right,
I don't think it's a long term thing, particularly if
you start then adding extra people in there. Yes, so yes,
it is absolutely doable. I think from a financial perspective,
(06:41):
she needs to know, like she has a fear around this,
does she know what it costs her to keep the
lights on? Right? So, Melissa Brown is exc ex financial advisors.
She always says to women, particularly that are going through
a divorce, do you know what it costs you to
keep your lights on? We're not talking the external purchases,
(07:02):
we're not talking all the streaming services, but what is
it that electricity, your basics, you rent, childcare, education, those
real things that you have to have to pay for.
And then from there, what is it that you can
do to break that down a little bit further? So,
understanding finances is incredibly important. It might be a fear
(07:26):
that she has, she might not feel like she can
support her son, but remembering that dad also has to
tip in a bit here too, right, so she is
she doesn't have to do that part solo. She might
have to do her own self awareness and her self healing.
And that's a solo episode for her ride. But with
(07:48):
her son, she's still going to be a co parent.
Dad's still going to be on the scene, and theoretically
dad still has to help pay for that lifestyle that
they have started out with, and as parents, they've made
a commitment to do this for their child, so he
(08:08):
has to help along the way.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So when you're saying separate your fear from your finances,
you mean like literally, go and do some homework about
like whether or not what you're worried about is as
big as you think it is, what your basic costs
would be, whether or not you could do that alone.
What you know? Do you think that one of the
reasons why women You know how you said at the beginning,
(08:31):
what would happen if you spoke to him about it?
It doesn't sound like they have really spoken to each
other about it. Is there like a fear sometimes that
if I bring that up and say it out loud,
then we have to do something about it, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
What I mean? Yeah, it makes it real, I think,
especially if you're talking to you know, your husband about it.
She's having this internal monologue with herself, but if she
actually brings him into that conversation, it then becomes very real.
They may choose he might be feeling the same way.
(09:03):
Who knows it might be oh you know, gosh, I
had no idea. Can we get this back on And
if there's a way to get it back on track
and they fall in love again, well that's amazing. But
until you face the fear, it's still out there in
the ether somewhere, right. We don't actually know what it is,
(09:23):
and it feels like we're just looking at it and going, okay,
well that's over here, and that's terrifying to me. I'm
just going to stick my head in the sand. And
it's too fearful. I can't go there. But once you
face it, you understand it. It doesn't mean you have
to pull the trigger on it either, right, You've just
got more information or the information to then be able
to make an informed, educated decision.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I'm going to be back in just a minute with
more of your dilammas, but first a little break. Okay,
on to our next one. I've been divorced for almost
two years. My ex has started seeing someone seriously for
the first time, and he wants to introduce her to
our children. We have a seventy thirty split and the
(10:07):
kids are eight and six. I think they're too young
and that it's too soon. They've been seeing each other
for six months x and it's a new partner. He
wants her to be able to be around when he's
got the kids. I think that's confusing and that he
should be focused on them. He thinks I'm being jealous
and unreasonable. I think I'm being a good mum. I
don't want to have to take any official steps about this.
(10:29):
I think he should respect my wishes. Am I right? Well,
every dilemma should really and am I right? And everybody
wants to hear yes, you are hundred percent? Ah, this
is very tricky and very common too, right, Yeah, talk
to me about what you think a very tricky Lots
of people agree this in a parenting agreement at split,
(10:50):
like whether or not they would introduce new partners to
kids and stuff. Is this something that you really should
have planned out before?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think you should, because I will always say to
clients the devil is in the detail, and if you
omit that and assume that somebody else is on the
same page you there often becomes a pretty rude shock
when these events happen.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So you mean, if you think, well, it's common sense
that you wouldn't introduce the partner to the kids until
they're a bit older, or until she'd been around a
bit longer, and he would know that too, but he
doesn't know that too.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
But he doesn't know that too. So there's a whole
bunch of psychology around introducing kids to new partners. And
whilst it's different for everyone, they say between six and
twelve months of a relationship. My first thought though, is,
(11:47):
I don't know that. It is a matter of whether
you are right or whether you are wrong. What is
in the best interest of your children, and as parents,
you know them better than anyone else. And I think
there's another element of what I read into that is
that Hay's moved on, possibly sooner than what she had.
(12:10):
There's a whole bunch of emotions around that that he's
found somebody else or found love again, and that also
hits pretty hard sometimes will always actually, I think so
I would be then peeling it back a little bit
and going is this about me? Or is this actually
about me protecting my children?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
And that must be quite hard to separate sometimes because
also for us women like us, being protective mothers is
part of our identity almost, you know what I mean?
Of course, I always put the kids first. I don't
know what you mean that this might be about me,
you know, And I don't want to make I'm not
being flippant about this woman's genuinely difficult situation, but like
(12:56):
it's very hard for us sometimes to ask ourselves that question,
like is this a me thing or is this some
moth thing?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think if the kids were a little
bit older, you might have some different conversations with them too, Right,
So I would say to her, have a conversation with him.
You can't control whether he is going to introduce the
new partner or not. There's nothing you can do about that,
to be honest. Unless she poses a risk to your children,
(13:25):
you can't stop it.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, that's interesting because I've heard people talk about a lot.
A very important step in separation is realizing what you
can and can't control. And some of those things like
whether or not you know they always get the right
lunch for school is one thing, and then this is
something quite different, and it must it must be take
(13:49):
a bit of superhuman strength sometimes to let go of
that kind of control.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Absolutely, because like you say, you know, as mums and
as parents, we are there and we want to protect
our children. So I think in the nicest possible way,
check yourself, is this about you or is it about
your kids? Next? One thing I would do is have
a conversation with him, or if you can't have a
conversation with him, write it out, send him an email
(14:16):
express how you think this is going to have an
impact on your children? Because she says that the children
are with her seventy percent of the time, so that's
majority of the time. The kids will come home from
Dad having met the new partner and potentially have questions
and want to unpack that with mum. Now, if she
(14:37):
doesn't have the information at hand for her, or she's
not giving the same information as Dad, then the kids
are going to be very confused. So as best you
possibly can get on the same page about perhaps not
the introduction, but the words around that. How is dad
going to introduce the new partner? What words is he
going to use? So that's really give that to mum
(14:59):
so she can then back, you know, have that in
her back pocket for when the kids do come to her,
because ultimately they will. And when is he going to
introduce the partner or the new person? How is it
going to be in an open setting, in a coffee
shop or are they going to go to the park
or is she coming to the house. Do you want
(15:20):
to meet her first? And I think that if she's
going to spend some time with your children, it's not
unreasonable for you to say, hey, it'd be really great
to meet you. It'd be awkward and it is done.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That could go yeah, and how does it go well?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I think if we're all at the adults in the
room and we really put the ego aside, very difficult.
Not saying it's easy, but if we put the ego
aside and really focus on what the issue here is,
and this is your children. Your concern is for your kids,
So making that very child focused, how are the kids
(16:03):
going to react? How do you think that they're going
to react? And then also just get a gauge of
of what this person's like. I mean, best case scenario,
you really like her and you become friends.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Best case scenario. Does that happen very often?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I've seen it happen with clients a few times. Actually,
that there's this real fear of oh, gosh, I'm going
to meet you know, my ex's new partner. There's gosh,
there's so many emotions to unpack there and feelings that
you are going to have all really normal, So let's
not sugarcoat that because it's really difficult to do.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Can I ask you? Because obviously an enormous amount of
divorce and separation if children are involved, are about putting
them first? And do you need to have like because
you've got to be your best self and not be
like criticizing and not be like bitching about the other
person or their girlfriend in front of the kids. Is
it absolutely crucial to have like the counsel of girlfriends
(17:03):
or whatever who you can go to and say the
things that you're not allowed to say, like and it
has terrible and I don't know what she sees it.
And do you need to make sure you've got an
outlet where you can go and not be your best
self so that you can then come home and be
your best self.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yes, definitely on speed dial all the time because we
all look nobody's perfect where you know the going and
I'll put myself in this position, right, So meeting the
ex's partner is really difficult. You you know, you second
guess yourself. You're taken back to sometimes the reasons why
(17:44):
you may have split up you're allowing somebody else to
come into your children's life that you have no control over,
and you may not choose that person to spend time
with your children. So it's those big emotions and feelings
that you are having. It's really important for you to
(18:05):
work through those and not just like park them and go, oh,
this is pretty normal, but really look at what you
can do to help yourself to move through that, because
if you then work on yourself, you're always going to
be a better person for your and a better parent
for your children, and there's longevity in that, rather than
(18:26):
really thinking about, well, I just don't want them to
meet her because I think he's moved on it. It's
far too soon.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, got it. You know how we started this by saying,
in an ideal world, you've discussed this a little bit
before it happens. It's one thing to think how you
might feel and another thing to how to feel it, though,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm sure definitely it's all very well to sit there
and write it down on a bit of paper. You know,
you got you will tell me, you know, three weeks
in advance before you are going to re partner with somebody,
and like it's it then becomes a quite clinical right.
But to actually the practicality behind that is so difficult.
(19:01):
Sitting across the the coffee shop, in your favorite coffee shop,
having your favorite cup of coffee, meeting your ex's new partner,
A lot of deep breathing in that ole, A lot
of deep breathing.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Nikki Gosh, I'm going to be back with the very
wise Nicki Parkinson in a moment after this break. Okay,
our ex listener question, I'm having an affair. This isn't me, Holly,
this is our listener. I'm having an affair. That's the
(19:37):
first time I've said that. We've been married for fifteen years,
and we have two kids now in high school, and
I've met a man at work. The sex is amazing,
and I feel ten years younger since we started seeing
each other. I feel guilty, but also not because I
told my husband a million times that we need to
work on our marriage and he refuses to go to
counseling or try anything different. Is there a good way
(19:59):
to work out what to do next, whether this is
a fling that has nothing to do with my marriage,
or a sign that I finally need to pull the
plug and if I do, do I have to tell
my husband the truth? Oh? Shit, Okay, Nikki. Anyone who's
listened to our episode together knows that infidelity was part
(20:22):
of the story of your marriage breakup. Although not on
your side, you probably know that. Professionally you have an
insight into this and personally, what have you got to
say to our listener?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Oh, it's a hard one, I think with the benefit
of time on my side, affairs don't happen in happy
marriages and you're seeking something external? Is it validation? Is
it the excitement?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
You know, for many people it's addiction. There is so
many reasons that people go out and have an affair,
and I don't think that it's for me to judge
on why people do that. The answer to the last
question is do I need to tell my husband? I
(21:15):
can speak from experience in that had I had the
benefit of knowing that, it still would have been really difficult.
But I think that I would have had for me,
there wouldn't have been as much shame around that because
(21:35):
it was almost like this whole and there was a
whole other life going on behind the scenes of this
relationship going on, and then what comes from that. For
me as being the person on the other side, is
lots and lots of therapy around myself and what did
(21:58):
I do wrong? And am I good enough? And all
of those types of things. So I would just say
have a think about that. I would come back to
your value, right. And you don't have to tell your
husband no, you don't. Simply if you want to, yes,
(22:18):
you should, and what detail you go into is entirely
up to you. But think about what you want for
the future of your relationship with your possible ex husband.
Do you have children, do you want to maintain a
friendship with them in the long term? Might not be immediately?
(22:40):
Do you still have love in your heart for that person?
And it started with love, so why can't it end
with love? I'm eight years down the track, right, So
I think that you do what you think is best
for you and your family. And I said, you know,
people don't fall in and out of love just at.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
The drop of a hat.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah. I haven't had an affair, but I know plenty
of people who have.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
In our minds, we often stereotype that it's the man
who's having the affair, but that's not always the case.
Of course, not when she says, I feel guilty but
also not because I've told him a million times we
need to work on our marriage and he refuses to
go to counseling or try anything different. That sounds like
a justification right for her doing what she's doing. Do
(23:25):
you think that? I mean, I'm not going to say
do you think that is a justification, because it's not
a justification to be lying to someone you professed to love.
But that sounds kind of true to me that you know.
I know a lot of women in relationships who are
often saying to their partner, I need more, I need different,
I need us to try it this, I need things
(23:47):
to change. And sometimes, and again I'm stereotyping, the man
can be resistant to that. And I don't know, do
you think that in an ideal scenario, you might pull
the pin before you started sleeping with the man at work.
But maybe the sleeping with the man at work is
the thing that's making her go, No, this really is?
(24:09):
You know how she says, is it really?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Like?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Does it? Is this really it? I don't know, you know,
do I have to do so? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I think it's Is it justification or is it a
cry for help? For her to go you know what,
this is really not working. And if I don't do
something drastic, am I going to stay in this marriage
for the rest of my life and be you know,
get to your third act and you're right down the
end and you're like, oh, well, gosh, I've missed out
(24:37):
on so much time. So I think ask yourself the question,
what is it? What are the reasons behind the affair?
Do you want out? And this is the way that
you wanted The only way that you think you can
get there is by imploding your relationship. Maybe maybe that's
the only way you think that you could.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Go forward and do that. Often, often they often do
the thing where like I can't pull the plug, so
I'm just going to make things horrible, make a mess,
so that you're going to have to dumb me.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
That's it tactic. A few of us have lived through.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh yeah, absolutely, And it happens more often than we
than I think we care to think about. I mean,
we're humans, you know, if you've listened to my ted talk,
I will say to you, I don't think that we
are meant to marry and mate for life. She's got
this internal critic that she has to make friends with, right,
so is it over? Who knows? But you're right in
(25:36):
what you say that you know we tell I, No,
I've done that. You know, you tell you your husbands
for a long time. I want more. I'm changing. This
is you know, come with me on this growth pathway
And it's like, well, no, I'm pretty happy here. I
don't think I have to do any work. I don't
(25:57):
think I have to change. But then sooner or later,
you can only stay in that situation for so long.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
This is a tricky question, I know. And again, if
you've listened to your story, you ended up finding out
about your husband's relationship by accident, inverted commas, by finding
an email, and even though you'd sort of ordered, the
separation process already started, but it always denied it. Is
there such a thing as a good way to tell
someone you're having an affair? You know? How? She says,
(26:26):
do I have to tell him the truth? And you've
already said, well, look that's up to you. Yeah, how
do you have that conversation? Like do you wish you
wish that he'd told you?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I do now? Yeah, absolutely, if you had of asked,
if you asked me that same question. Eight years ago,
I would have it would have been so sad for something.
You know, if you can imagine sitting across for somebody
that you love so deeply and you've taken vows or
(26:57):
made commitments to each other, and they say I'm having
an affair with someone else. I think the words that
I heard, and I know a lot of clients have
heard the same thing, is it's not so much the affair,
it's what's wrong with me. Yeah, so's there's that. But
(27:18):
that's also not up to her to unpack that, right,
So that's up to her husband to unpack that if
that's the way that he feels. I mean, I can
only talk from experience. I think sometimes the truth doesn't
come out. Sometimes no one ever knows that people have
had an affair. My question, I guess to our listener
(27:40):
is how does she feel about living with that indefinitely?
And that's the question that only she can answer as well,
And there's no right or wrong answer there.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, that's really interesting. There are sometimes in life, aren't they?
When you know, if I say these next few words,
everything changes, Yes, you know what I mean. And in
these relationship there's all of these end of relationship or
pivotal moments in relationships. That's that feeling, isn't it. It's like,
if I say this out loud, we can't go back
(28:11):
just sitting on the couch watching Netflix.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Like, no, there'll be no more binging.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Oh okay, here's our last one. How do I know
if it's truly over. My partner and I have been
together for six years. This is my first same sex
relationship after years of being either single or in mismatched
situationships with men. I adore her and I feel like
we've been so happy, but over the past years she's
become distant and difficult. It's a lot to go into,
(28:40):
but basically, for the past few months, she's been saying
she's not sure if this is what she wants long term,
that she loves me, but she wants to spend some
time apart to see if we should stay together. She's
moved out but still comes back and stays sometimes, still
calls me every day. My family and friends are all
telling me that it's over, that she must be seeing
someone else. She says she isn't, and I want to
believe her and that I just need to walk away.
(29:02):
But I think maybe she's just going through something and
we can get through it. I feel like I should
know better, but also completely on the back foot. Oh man,
how do you know if it's truly over?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Oh it's such a hard question. I think when someone
shows you who they are, believe them again. She may
not be willing to say those words out loud, because
once you've said them, can't take them back. I want
to end our relationship. If she's moved out, she's not
(29:39):
willing to do any work on the relationship. I think
my gut instinct says that it's over. Does it mean
that you can't do any work to bring it back? No,
But listening to her story and her dilemma, my first
(30:03):
thought is, yes.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
It's over when people are in this situation where you're
and not maybe not for any kind of malicious reasons.
People are going through all kinds of stuff, but you're
being kept in a sort of limbo in a relationship.
This happened to someone very close to me that for
ages it was like, well, is it over? Isn't it over?
And it's like I just need some more time. Oh,
(30:24):
I just need this to happen. I just need that
to happen. Torturous for a year if they're not bringing
it to a head for whatever reason, do you have
to bring it to a head? Like how do you
and knowing that you know, as with all these questions,
knowing that once you do that, everything shifts, how do
you like get the courage up to be the one
(30:44):
to say I need to know? Like, oh, it's so ultimatum?
Do you set an ultimatum? Do you say if we
can't sort this, set like what you know? How do you?
How do you summon that bravery?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I think you have to come back to you because
ultimately you're doing it for yourself, You're not doing it
for the other person. It's very courageous because it sounds
like she's so in love with her partner and there's
obviously love there. She says that there's love there, but
(31:19):
love shouldn't hurt so much and it shouldn't be so hard, right,
So if it's probably going to be her that that
rips the band aid off and says this is over
and she has to take control of that. And whilst
that feels really scary, it could be also quite liberating
(31:43):
to do.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
It's interesting because if somebody.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Has to, somebody has to, you can't they can't continue
to live in this way forever if she's moved out,
and it's I need some time and space to have
a think about what this looks like. But coming back
over it sounds like she doesn't really want to say
the word. She doesn't really want it to end calling
(32:08):
her every day. I would set some boundaries around that.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Because it's very hard to separate someone who's still is
still emotionally talking to every day. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Absolutely, And also she has to have some self protection
here for herself. And whilst it might be okay to
have a conversation a few times of week, and my goodness,
the no contact or all that's a whole other story,
but it is so difficult to do. But long term,
I think she has to start thinking about herself and
what her needs and wants are.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
All of these questions have been so hard, and Nikki,
this isn't a dilemma. But I want you to tell
me because I want us to end on something like
a little bit hopeful and happy, because just there's a
lot of pain, Because there is a lot of pain
in relationship breakdown, whether it's your idea, whether it's their idea,
whether you're having an affair or they are, or whether
someone's gone a well or whatever. There's so much pain
and confusion here. You talked about this a little bit
(33:03):
when we did our episode. But eight years on and
now you help women all the time navigate divorce and separation.
To all of these people and the other people whose
questions we didn't answer, what would you love them to
know about where they'll get to after all this messiness
is sorted out?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Oh Holly, it's so liberating when you get to a stage.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Where you feel that your.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Growth as a person takes you to that next stage,
whatever that looks like for you. And it's yeah, there
is so much pain. There's so much hurt. There is
no easy way around it. You've got to go through it,
and you've basically you've got to sit in the shit
and just don't stay there for a long time. Right,
(33:55):
But at the end of the day, you're doing it
for you. We have this one amazing life. And you know,
there's a beautiful book that's written whose name escapes me
at the moment, but it's you get to eighty and
you take yourself back to, you know, a certain pastage
in your life and did you live that life or
(34:18):
did you just do the day in, day out because
that's what you thought you had to do. It's hard,
but it is when you get there. You know, it's
so exciting. The life that you can live post separation
and divorce. It's it's just incredible. So take the holiday,
(34:40):
buy the shoes, do whatever you know. Do it, but
do it for you, do it for the right reasons.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, make the choices, make the choices. Make Yeah. Oh,
I'm so glad we ended it like that. I feel
quite teary now. There's so many there's so much heartache
in all those questions, but there's also so much possibility, right,
possibility of lives that you can be living instead of
this one.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Maybe most definitely, most definitely, I tell you that it
gets it's better. It's hard, but with the gift of time,
it gets so much better and so much easier and
so much more exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
We could feel all the pain in those questions you
sent us, and yet how graceful are Nicky's answers and
how uplifting is her perspective. A massive amount of love
from us to you. If this is what you're going
through right now, if you want to know more about
Nikki Services. There's a link in our show notes and
if you want to hear more stories that touch on
divorce and separation, please scroll back in your midfeed and
(35:44):
listen to Nicky'szepp of course, but also to the conversation
with Melinda Gates. Yes, that Malinda Gates about being in
one of the most high profile divorces of all time.
Also the one we did with Amantha Imba about rebuilding
your daily life after divorce in fact, Amantha's just got remarried,
and with Leslie Morgan about post divorce sexual odyssey. You
(36:06):
will find all those episodes in the feed. A massive
thanks to the Mid team Executive producer Nama Brown, senior
producer Charlie Blackman, and we've had audio production by Jacob Brown.
I'll see you next week.
You're listening to Amma Mia podcast. Mamma mea acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on. Does it take a year or two, or
three or ten or a lifetime to get over it?
I mean, does it take tough love or infinite empathy,
prolonged wallowing or pulling yourself together? Is there ever even
(00:34):
a choice? Is someone always to blame? What if it's me?
I'm Holly Wainwright and I am Mid. This season we're
talking about you and your dilemmas, and today we're talking
about divorce and separation. As always, I'm phoning a friend
to help us answer these big questions. And today's friend
(00:56):
is another returning guest of Mid, Nicki Parkinson. Back in
season three, Nicki came on and told me her story
in the most honest, bold and beautiful way. Seven years ago,
after a long period of being told by her husband
that are fears about their marriage to all in her head,
Nicki got an email that changed everything. Yes he was
(01:16):
having an affair, and yes her marriage was definitely over.
That episode really resonated with a lot of people because
since that devastating day, Nicki has been rebuilding her life
and then reaching back and helping other women going through
similar stuff. Separation and divorce was such an earth shattering,
all encompassing loss, she wanted to arm others with the
(01:38):
information she wished she had back at that time. And
she's also really passionate about letting women know that there
can be and often is certainly for her, a beautiful
life on the other side. These days, Nicki wears a
lot of separation related hats, making her the perfect person
to help answer your question. She's a ted X speaker,
but she's also a divorce dueler and coach. She is
(02:01):
also a family law expert and a parent's under pressure therapist,
and she is a mother of three. So we asked
Niki back on the show to go through your questions
and offer a little bit of her profound and practical wisdom. Niki, Welcome, Nikki.
You won't surprised, You'd know. I got a lot of
questions when I asked for dilemmas about divorce. It is
(02:22):
a bigger part of adult.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Life, especially in our mid season, right in our mid season.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
And they're quite different, all at different sort of the
ones we've chosen to answer today are ones that are
quite different sort of phases, but I'm very much looking
forward to your wise words. So we'll kick off with
our first question from a listener. I have fallen out
of love with my husband. We've been together for nine
years and we are flatmates, not even flatmates really just cohabitas.
(02:52):
We have a son who is six, and he's all
we talk about or share these days. We don't fight,
We just don't even really interact except as parents. I
miss intimacy, and miss excitement, and miss having someone who
cares about my day. The problem is if we split up,
I don't know how I could afford life by myself.
Life so expensive. I know my son would suffer with
(03:12):
a drop standard of living. To be honest, I would
like to be divorced and give myself another chance at
making a different life, but I don't think I can
afford it. What should I do? This is really quite
common because people are very like life is. A single
parent is very expensive, as you would know. What are
(03:32):
your words of wisdom for this listener of ours?
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Oh, it's so common, holy, because and I feel like
this is whilst this is a question about divorce and separation,
I feel like a lot of people are also feeling
this pinch, right, so cost of living is going up.
Being a single person living on a single wage is
really tricky. I would say to our listener, separate your
(04:00):
finances from your fear.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
To start with, that's interesting, Tell me what you tell
me about that.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Because it seems to me that she's got this real
fear around doing this solo. How am I going to cope?
I'm worried about my son. Am I going to afford it?
Where am I going to live? All of those types
of things. But if we peel it back just a
little bit more, and I wonder how she had this
(04:25):
conversation with her husband. I wonder if they're living as flatmates,
does he feel the same way? And then if we
do have that conversation, would it be surprising to her
that he might say something along the lines of, Okay,
how can we do this together? Because I'm all for
(04:46):
that amicable divorce and separation and doesn't often work that way.
But the fear of finances for women, particularly that are
going through a separation is so it is something that
seeps into your bones. I think because we earn less, right, yeah,
we have less in retirement and generally speaking, so then
(05:11):
how do we support our children with that? I would
also say to her something along the lines of, if
you are staying for your child, then what modeling are
we teaching your child? Are we then saying that we
have to settle because it's too fearful or too scary.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
On that point, because there's a few things there. But
if you're not unhappy, I mean, well, I was going
to say if you're not unhappy, but I mean our
listener is unhappy if she says I'd like to be
divorce to give myself another chance of making life. But
it's not like they're not fighting all the time. There's
no abuse they are. It doesn't sound like it's particularly
(05:59):
high stress. It's just very me. Do you think there's
a world in which you kind of can make an
arrangement almost like redefine your relationship but like, okay, this
isn't the big romantic love that maybe we started out with,
but let's stick it out until the kid grows up.
Like do people do that and does it ever work? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Absolutely, I've got clients that do a similar thing. So
they might live in the house together. It becomes tricky, right,
I don't think it's a long term thing, particularly if
you start then adding extra people in there. Yes, so yes,
it is absolutely doable. I think from a financial perspective,
(06:41):
she needs to know, like she has a fear around this,
does she know what it costs her to keep the
lights on? Right? So, Melissa Brown is exc ex financial advisors.
She always says to women, particularly that are going through
a divorce, do you know what it costs you to
keep your lights on? We're not talking the external purchases,
(07:02):
we're not talking all the streaming services, but what is
it that electricity, your basics, you rent, childcare, education, those
real things that you have to have to pay for.
And then from there, what is it that you can
do to break that down a little bit further? So,
understanding finances is incredibly important. It might be a fear
(07:26):
that she has, she might not feel like she can
support her son, but remembering that dad also has to
tip in a bit here too, right, so she is
she doesn't have to do that part solo. She might
have to do her own self awareness and her self healing.
And that's a solo episode for her ride. But with
(07:48):
her son, she's still going to be a co parent.
Dad's still going to be on the scene, and theoretically
dad still has to help pay for that lifestyle that
they have started out with, and as parents, they've made
a commitment to do this for their child, so he
(08:08):
has to help along the way.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
So when you're saying separate your fear from your finances,
you mean like literally, go and do some homework about
like whether or not what you're worried about is as
big as you think it is, what your basic costs
would be, whether or not you could do that alone.
What you know? Do you think that one of the
reasons why women You know how you said at the beginning,
(08:31):
what would happen if you spoke to him about it?
It doesn't sound like they have really spoken to each
other about it. Is there like a fear sometimes that
if I bring that up and say it out loud,
then we have to do something about it, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
What I mean? Yeah, it makes it real, I think,
especially if you're talking to you know, your husband about it.
She's having this internal monologue with herself, but if she
actually brings him into that conversation, it then becomes very real.
They may choose he might be feeling the same way.
(09:03):
Who knows it might be oh you know, gosh, I
had no idea. Can we get this back on And
if there's a way to get it back on track
and they fall in love again, well that's amazing. But
until you face the fear, it's still out there in
the ether somewhere, right. We don't actually know what it is,
(09:23):
and it feels like we're just looking at it and going, okay,
well that's over here, and that's terrifying to me. I'm
just going to stick my head in the sand. And
it's too fearful. I can't go there. But once you
face it, you understand it. It doesn't mean you have
to pull the trigger on it either, right, You've just
got more information or the information to then be able
to make an informed, educated decision.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
I'm going to be back in just a minute with
more of your dilammas, but first a little break. Okay,
on to our next one. I've been divorced for almost
two years. My ex has started seeing someone seriously for
the first time, and he wants to introduce her to
our children. We have a seventy thirty split and the
(10:07):
kids are eight and six. I think they're too young
and that it's too soon. They've been seeing each other
for six months x and it's a new partner. He
wants her to be able to be around when he's
got the kids. I think that's confusing and that he
should be focused on them. He thinks I'm being jealous
and unreasonable. I think I'm being a good mum. I
don't want to have to take any official steps about this.
(10:29):
I think he should respect my wishes. Am I right? Well,
every dilemma should really and am I right? And everybody
wants to hear yes, you are hundred percent? Ah, this
is very tricky and very common too, right, Yeah, talk
to me about what you think a very tricky Lots
of people agree this in a parenting agreement at split,
(10:50):
like whether or not they would introduce new partners to
kids and stuff. Is this something that you really should
have planned out before?
Speaker 2 (10:58):
I think you should, because I will always say to
clients the devil is in the detail, and if you
omit that and assume that somebody else is on the
same page you there often becomes a pretty rude shock
when these events happen.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So you mean, if you think, well, it's common sense
that you wouldn't introduce the partner to the kids until
they're a bit older, or until she'd been around a
bit longer, and he would know that too, but he
doesn't know that too.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
But he doesn't know that too. So there's a whole
bunch of psychology around introducing kids to new partners. And
whilst it's different for everyone, they say between six and
twelve months of a relationship. My first thought though, is,
(11:47):
I don't know that. It is a matter of whether
you are right or whether you are wrong. What is
in the best interest of your children, and as parents,
you know them better than anyone else. And I think
there's another element of what I read into that is
that Hay's moved on, possibly sooner than what she had.
(12:10):
There's a whole bunch of emotions around that that he's
found somebody else or found love again, and that also
hits pretty hard sometimes will always actually, I think so
I would be then peeling it back a little bit
and going is this about me? Or is this actually
about me protecting my children?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
And that must be quite hard to separate sometimes because
also for us women like us, being protective mothers is
part of our identity almost, you know what I mean?
Of course, I always put the kids first. I don't
know what you mean that this might be about me,
you know, And I don't want to make I'm not
being flippant about this woman's genuinely difficult situation, but like
(12:56):
it's very hard for us sometimes to ask ourselves that question,
like is this a me thing or is this some
moth thing?
Speaker 2 (13:02):
Yeah, and I think if the kids were a little
bit older, you might have some different conversations with them too, Right,
So I would say to her, have a conversation with him.
You can't control whether he is going to introduce the
new partner or not. There's nothing you can do about that,
to be honest. Unless she poses a risk to your children,
(13:25):
you can't stop it.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Yeah, that's interesting because I've heard people talk about a lot.
A very important step in separation is realizing what you
can and can't control. And some of those things like
whether or not you know they always get the right
lunch for school is one thing, and then this is
something quite different, and it must it must be take
(13:49):
a bit of superhuman strength sometimes to let go of
that kind of control.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Absolutely, because like you say, you know, as mums and
as parents, we are there and we want to protect
our children. So I think in the nicest possible way,
check yourself, is this about you or is it about
your kids? Next? One thing I would do is have
a conversation with him, or if you can't have a
conversation with him, write it out, send him an email
(14:16):
express how you think this is going to have an
impact on your children? Because she says that the children
are with her seventy percent of the time, so that's
majority of the time. The kids will come home from
Dad having met the new partner and potentially have questions
and want to unpack that with mum. Now, if she
(14:37):
doesn't have the information at hand for her, or she's
not giving the same information as Dad, then the kids
are going to be very confused. So as best you
possibly can get on the same page about perhaps not
the introduction, but the words around that. How is dad
going to introduce the new partner? What words is he
going to use? So that's really give that to mum
(14:59):
so she can then back, you know, have that in
her back pocket for when the kids do come to her,
because ultimately they will. And when is he going to
introduce the partner or the new person? How is it
going to be in an open setting, in a coffee
shop or are they going to go to the park
or is she coming to the house. Do you want
(15:20):
to meet her first? And I think that if she's
going to spend some time with your children, it's not
unreasonable for you to say, hey, it'd be really great
to meet you. It'd be awkward and it is done.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
That could go yeah, and how does it go well?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I think if we're all at the adults in the
room and we really put the ego aside, very difficult.
Not saying it's easy, but if we put the ego
aside and really focus on what the issue here is,
and this is your children. Your concern is for your kids,
So making that very child focused, how are the kids
(16:03):
going to react? How do you think that they're going
to react? And then also just get a gauge of
of what this person's like. I mean, best case scenario,
you really like her and you become friends.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Best case scenario. Does that happen very often?
Speaker 2 (16:19):
I've seen it happen with clients a few times. Actually,
that there's this real fear of oh, gosh, I'm going
to meet you know, my ex's new partner. There's gosh,
there's so many emotions to unpack there and feelings that
you are going to have all really normal, So let's
not sugarcoat that because it's really difficult to do.
Speaker 1 (16:41):
Can I ask you? Because obviously an enormous amount of
divorce and separation if children are involved, are about putting
them first? And do you need to have like because
you've got to be your best self and not be
like criticizing and not be like bitching about the other
person or their girlfriend in front of the kids. Is
it absolutely crucial to have like the counsel of girlfriends
(17:03):
or whatever who you can go to and say the
things that you're not allowed to say, like and it
has terrible and I don't know what she sees it.
And do you need to make sure you've got an
outlet where you can go and not be your best
self so that you can then come home and be
your best self.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yes, definitely on speed dial all the time because we
all look nobody's perfect where you know the going and
I'll put myself in this position, right, So meeting the
ex's partner is really difficult. You you know, you second
guess yourself. You're taken back to sometimes the reasons why
(17:44):
you may have split up you're allowing somebody else to
come into your children's life that you have no control over,
and you may not choose that person to spend time
with your children. So it's those big emotions and feelings
that you are having. It's really important for you to
(18:05):
work through those and not just like park them and go, oh,
this is pretty normal, but really look at what you
can do to help yourself to move through that, because
if you then work on yourself, you're always going to
be a better person for your and a better parent
for your children, and there's longevity in that, rather than
(18:26):
really thinking about, well, I just don't want them to
meet her because I think he's moved on it. It's
far too soon.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, got it. You know how we started this by saying,
in an ideal world, you've discussed this a little bit
before it happens. It's one thing to think how you
might feel and another thing to how to feel it, though,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I'm sure definitely it's all very well to sit there
and write it down on a bit of paper. You know,
you got you will tell me, you know, three weeks
in advance before you are going to re partner with somebody,
and like it's it then becomes a quite clinical right.
But to actually the practicality behind that is so difficult.
(19:01):
Sitting across the the coffee shop, in your favorite coffee shop,
having your favorite cup of coffee, meeting your ex's new partner,
A lot of deep breathing in that ole, A lot
of deep breathing.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Nikki Gosh, I'm going to be back with the very
wise Nicki Parkinson in a moment after this break. Okay,
our ex listener question, I'm having an affair. This isn't me, Holly,
this is our listener. I'm having an affair. That's the
(19:37):
first time I've said that. We've been married for fifteen years,
and we have two kids now in high school, and
I've met a man at work. The sex is amazing,
and I feel ten years younger since we started seeing
each other. I feel guilty, but also not because I
told my husband a million times that we need to
work on our marriage and he refuses to go to
counseling or try anything different. Is there a good way
(19:59):
to work out what to do next, whether this is
a fling that has nothing to do with my marriage,
or a sign that I finally need to pull the
plug and if I do, do I have to tell
my husband the truth? Oh? Shit, Okay, Nikki. Anyone who's
listened to our episode together knows that infidelity was part
(20:22):
of the story of your marriage breakup. Although not on
your side, you probably know that. Professionally you have an
insight into this and personally, what have you got to
say to our listener?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Oh, it's a hard one, I think with the benefit
of time on my side, affairs don't happen in happy
marriages and you're seeking something external? Is it validation? Is
it the excitement?
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (20:53):
You know, for many people it's addiction. There is so
many reasons that people go out and have an affair,
and I don't think that it's for me to judge
on why people do that. The answer to the last
question is do I need to tell my husband? I
(21:15):
can speak from experience in that had I had the
benefit of knowing that, it still would have been really difficult.
But I think that I would have had for me,
there wouldn't have been as much shame around that because
(21:35):
it was almost like this whole and there was a
whole other life going on behind the scenes of this
relationship going on, and then what comes from that. For
me as being the person on the other side, is
lots and lots of therapy around myself and what did
(21:58):
I do wrong? And am I good enough? And all
of those types of things. So I would just say
have a think about that. I would come back to
your value, right. And you don't have to tell your
husband no, you don't. Simply if you want to, yes,
(22:18):
you should, and what detail you go into is entirely
up to you. But think about what you want for
the future of your relationship with your possible ex husband.
Do you have children, do you want to maintain a
friendship with them in the long term? Might not be immediately?
(22:40):
Do you still have love in your heart for that person?
And it started with love, so why can't it end
with love? I'm eight years down the track, right, So
I think that you do what you think is best
for you and your family. And I said, you know,
people don't fall in and out of love just at.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
The drop of a hat.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah. I haven't had an affair, but I know plenty
of people who have.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
In our minds, we often stereotype that it's the man
who's having the affair, but that's not always the case.
Of course, not when she says, I feel guilty but
also not because I've told him a million times we
need to work on our marriage and he refuses to
go to counseling or try anything different. That sounds like
a justification right for her doing what she's doing. Do
(23:25):
you think that? I mean, I'm not going to say
do you think that is a justification, because it's not
a justification to be lying to someone you professed to love.
But that sounds kind of true to me that you know.
I know a lot of women in relationships who are
often saying to their partner, I need more, I need different,
I need us to try it this, I need things
(23:47):
to change. And sometimes, and again I'm stereotyping, the man
can be resistant to that. And I don't know, do
you think that in an ideal scenario, you might pull
the pin before you started sleeping with the man at work.
But maybe the sleeping with the man at work is
the thing that's making her go, No, this really is?
(24:09):
You know how she says, is it really?
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Like?
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Does it? Is this really it? I don't know, you know,
do I have to do so? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I think it's Is it justification or is it a
cry for help? For her to go you know what,
this is really not working. And if I don't do
something drastic, am I going to stay in this marriage
for the rest of my life and be you know,
get to your third act and you're right down the
end and you're like, oh, well, gosh, I've missed out
(24:37):
on so much time. So I think ask yourself the question,
what is it? What are the reasons behind the affair?
Do you want out? And this is the way that
you wanted The only way that you think you can
get there is by imploding your relationship. Maybe maybe that's
the only way you think that you could.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
Go forward and do that. Often, often they often do
the thing where like I can't pull the plug, so
I'm just going to make things horrible, make a mess,
so that you're going to have to dumb me.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
That's it tactic. A few of us have lived through.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Oh yeah, absolutely, And it happens more often than we
than I think we care to think about. I mean,
we're humans, you know, if you've listened to my ted talk,
I will say to you, I don't think that we
are meant to marry and mate for life. She's got
this internal critic that she has to make friends with, right,
so is it over? Who knows? But you're right in
(25:36):
what you say that you know we tell I, No,
I've done that. You know, you tell you your husbands
for a long time. I want more. I'm changing. This
is you know, come with me on this growth pathway
And it's like, well, no, I'm pretty happy here. I
don't think I have to do any work. I don't
(25:57):
think I have to change. But then sooner or later,
you can only stay in that situation for so long.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
This is a tricky question, I know. And again, if
you've listened to your story, you ended up finding out
about your husband's relationship by accident, inverted commas, by finding
an email, and even though you'd sort of ordered, the
separation process already started, but it always denied it. Is
there such a thing as a good way to tell
someone you're having an affair? You know? How? She says,
(26:26):
do I have to tell him the truth? And you've
already said, well, look that's up to you. Yeah, how
do you have that conversation? Like do you wish you
wish that he'd told you?
Speaker 2 (26:36):
I do now? Yeah, absolutely, if you had of asked,
if you asked me that same question. Eight years ago,
I would have it would have been so sad for something.
You know, if you can imagine sitting across for somebody
that you love so deeply and you've taken vows or
(26:57):
made commitments to each other, and they say I'm having
an affair with someone else. I think the words that
I heard, and I know a lot of clients have
heard the same thing, is it's not so much the affair,
it's what's wrong with me. Yeah, so's there's that. But
(27:18):
that's also not up to her to unpack that, right,
So that's up to her husband to unpack that if
that's the way that he feels. I mean, I can
only talk from experience. I think sometimes the truth doesn't
come out. Sometimes no one ever knows that people have
had an affair. My question, I guess to our listener
(27:40):
is how does she feel about living with that indefinitely?
And that's the question that only she can answer as well,
And there's no right or wrong answer there.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, that's really interesting. There are sometimes in life, aren't they?
When you know, if I say these next few words,
everything changes, Yes, you know what I mean. And in
these relationship there's all of these end of relationship or
pivotal moments in relationships. That's that feeling, isn't it. It's like,
if I say this out loud, we can't go back
(28:11):
just sitting on the couch watching Netflix.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Like, no, there'll be no more binging.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Oh okay, here's our last one. How do I know
if it's truly over. My partner and I have been
together for six years. This is my first same sex
relationship after years of being either single or in mismatched
situationships with men. I adore her and I feel like
we've been so happy, but over the past years she's
become distant and difficult. It's a lot to go into,
(28:40):
but basically, for the past few months, she's been saying
she's not sure if this is what she wants long term,
that she loves me, but she wants to spend some
time apart to see if we should stay together. She's
moved out but still comes back and stays sometimes, still
calls me every day. My family and friends are all
telling me that it's over, that she must be seeing
someone else. She says she isn't, and I want to
believe her and that I just need to walk away.
(29:02):
But I think maybe she's just going through something and
we can get through it. I feel like I should
know better, but also completely on the back foot. Oh man,
how do you know if it's truly over?
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Oh it's such a hard question. I think when someone
shows you who they are, believe them again. She may
not be willing to say those words out loud, because
once you've said them, can't take them back. I want
to end our relationship. If she's moved out, she's not
(29:39):
willing to do any work on the relationship. I think
my gut instinct says that it's over. Does it mean
that you can't do any work to bring it back? No,
But listening to her story and her dilemma, my first
(30:03):
thought is, yes.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
It's over when people are in this situation where you're
and not maybe not for any kind of malicious reasons.
People are going through all kinds of stuff, but you're
being kept in a sort of limbo in a relationship.
This happened to someone very close to me that for
ages it was like, well, is it over? Isn't it over?
And it's like I just need some more time. Oh,
(30:24):
I just need this to happen. I just need that
to happen. Torturous for a year if they're not bringing
it to a head for whatever reason, do you have
to bring it to a head? Like how do you
and knowing that you know, as with all these questions,
knowing that once you do that, everything shifts, how do
you like get the courage up to be the one
(30:44):
to say I need to know? Like, oh, it's so ultimatum?
Do you set an ultimatum? Do you say if we
can't sort this, set like what you know? How do you?
How do you summon that bravery?
Speaker 2 (30:57):
I think you have to come back to you because
ultimately you're doing it for yourself, You're not doing it
for the other person. It's very courageous because it sounds
like she's so in love with her partner and there's
obviously love there. She says that there's love there, but
(31:19):
love shouldn't hurt so much and it shouldn't be so hard, right,
So if it's probably going to be her that that
rips the band aid off and says this is over
and she has to take control of that. And whilst
that feels really scary, it could be also quite liberating
(31:43):
to do.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
It's interesting because if somebody.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Has to, somebody has to, you can't they can't continue
to live in this way forever if she's moved out,
and it's I need some time and space to have
a think about what this looks like. But coming back
over it sounds like she doesn't really want to say
the word. She doesn't really want it to end calling
(32:08):
her every day. I would set some boundaries around that.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Because it's very hard to separate someone who's still is
still emotionally talking to every day. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Absolutely, And also she has to have some self protection
here for herself. And whilst it might be okay to
have a conversation a few times of week, and my goodness,
the no contact or all that's a whole other story,
but it is so difficult to do. But long term,
I think she has to start thinking about herself and
what her needs and wants are.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
All of these questions have been so hard, and Nikki,
this isn't a dilemma. But I want you to tell
me because I want us to end on something like
a little bit hopeful and happy, because just there's a
lot of pain, Because there is a lot of pain
in relationship breakdown, whether it's your idea, whether it's their idea,
whether you're having an affair or they are, or whether
someone's gone a well or whatever. There's so much pain
and confusion here. You talked about this a little bit
(33:03):
when we did our episode. But eight years on and
now you help women all the time navigate divorce and separation.
To all of these people and the other people whose
questions we didn't answer, what would you love them to
know about where they'll get to after all this messiness
is sorted out?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Oh Holly, it's so liberating when you get to a stage.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
Where you feel that your.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Growth as a person takes you to that next stage,
whatever that looks like for you. And it's yeah, there
is so much pain. There's so much hurt. There is
no easy way around it. You've got to go through it,
and you've basically you've got to sit in the shit
and just don't stay there for a long time. Right,
(33:55):
But at the end of the day, you're doing it
for you. We have this one amazing life. And you know,
there's a beautiful book that's written whose name escapes me
at the moment, but it's you get to eighty and
you take yourself back to, you know, a certain pastage
in your life and did you live that life or
(34:18):
did you just do the day in, day out because
that's what you thought you had to do. It's hard,
but it is when you get there. You know, it's
so exciting. The life that you can live post separation
and divorce. It's it's just incredible. So take the holiday,
(34:40):
buy the shoes, do whatever you know. Do it, but
do it for you, do it for the right reasons.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
Yeah, make the choices, make the choices. Make Yeah. Oh,
I'm so glad we ended it like that. I feel
quite teary now. There's so many there's so much heartache
in all those questions, but there's also so much possibility, right,
possibility of lives that you can be living instead of
this one.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Maybe most definitely, most definitely, I tell you that it
gets it's better. It's hard, but with the gift of time,
it gets so much better and so much easier and
so much more exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
We could feel all the pain in those questions you
sent us, and yet how graceful are Nicky's answers and
how uplifting is her perspective. A massive amount of love
from us to you. If this is what you're going
through right now, if you want to know more about
Nikki Services. There's a link in our show notes and
if you want to hear more stories that touch on
divorce and separation, please scroll back in your midfeed and
(35:44):
listen to Nicky'szepp of course, but also to the conversation
with Melinda Gates. Yes, that Malinda Gates about being in
one of the most high profile divorces of all time.
Also the one we did with Amantha Imba about rebuilding
your daily life after divorce in fact, Amantha's just got remarried,
and with Leslie Morgan about post divorce sexual odyssey. You
(36:06):
will find all those episodes in the feed. A massive
thanks to the Mid team Executive producer Nama Brown, senior
producer Charlie Blackman, and we've had audio production by Jacob Brown.
I'll see you next week.
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