July 21, 2025 • 45 mins
In this season of MID, we are answering the dilemmas and questions that you, our listeners, have sent us. This episode is all about families - the messy, the heartbreaking and the scary. To answer your questions, Holly has enlisted the woman known as the Friendly Psychologist, Jacqui Manning, who has over 25 years of clinical experience.
The dilemmas Jacqui and Holly tackle in this episode are:
- I want to be friends with my daughter-in-law, but she won’t even join the group chat.
- My mother is dying, but we still don’t get along.
- My daughter won’t speak to me because of my younger boyfriend.
Find out more about Jacqui's work as The Friendly Psychologist here.
Do you have a dilemma you'd like to send us? You can find us on helpme@mamamia.com.au
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Follow us on Instagram @MidbyMamamia or sign up to the MID newsletter, dropping weekly here.
CREDITS:
Guest: Jacqui Manning
Host: Holly Wainwright
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on. Families are supposed to be happy. That's the
dream we were all sold. Even if the one we
came from was not. We all want to believe the
(00:31):
one that we build certainly will be. No. One cradles
a baby bump, thinking one day this kid won't call
me back. No skipping, hopscotching child looks up at their
marm and thinks, one day, sure, judge me so harshly,
I'll have to turn away. No parent packs the school
lunch into the oversized backpack, imagining one day the person
(00:54):
this little one loves more than me will come between us. No.
Families are supposed to be happy. But we're all old
enough and wise enough to know families are so much
more than that. They are what sustains us and what
screws us up. They are the evolving answer to the
(01:15):
question what can I live with? What can I forgive?
What can I raise? What can I celebrate? And all
the silence that can open up in the gaps cracked
open by a fractured family can be the most painful
thing of all, an empty chair and a phone that
doesn't beep, the quiet holidays, the pain of pushing away,
(01:38):
the constant what ifs that should have said. The y
means the question what's worth this? Yes, families are supposed
to be happy, but they are so much more than that. Hello. Hello,
I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family,
(02:01):
mid figuring it all out this season of mid We
are answering your dilemmas, the things that are keeping you
up at night, you know, besides the hormones, because we
have hit the messy middle and there is a lot
to unpack here today. All your dilemmas were answering are
about family estrangement, the term for when the happy family
(02:21):
myth falls apart and turns to silence or recrimination or
drama or worry. We are talking about a mother who's
afraid that her new daughter in law will take a
boy away, a daughter struggling to make peace with a
vinegary mother, a mother on the brink of losing a
daughter over love. And because I am all care but
no expertise in this department, I have called in someone
(02:44):
who knows some stuff, Jackie Manning. Jackie is known as
the Friendly Psychologist and she has twenty five years of
experience and a clinical practice in Sydney. You might have
seen her on TV or on YouTube or on radio
with my old mate Andrew Daddo. Jackie came in to
help me with your dilemmas. But please remember, as always
(03:06):
that this is general advice only, and if you're struggling
in any way, make sure to see a health professional
who can advise you specifically. There are going to be
some links in our show notes to point you in
the right direction, But in the meantime, here's Jackie and
here are your dilemmas about families. Jackie, thank you so
(03:27):
much for joining us today to help me answer some
of our mid listeners questions.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
It's lovely to be with you, holl.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It's really interesting because we get a lot of questions
about families, and it's people can feel this big sense
of failure if their family relationships aren't like the ones
we see all around us in movies and you know,
happy families and on social media on Mother's Day and
all that, it can feel like such a failure. If
(03:53):
your family doesn't seem like.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That, it can and it can actually trigger fear in
people too, And the reason for that is our bodies
are very ancient in their makeup, and our safety has
in most of the history of humanity depended on being
part of a tribe. Yeah, right, and yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So the fear of being cast out and alone is
a very primal one.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Very primal and very real. So our brains and our
neurochemistry don't know that. We can go to woolies and
get some food, or you live in a house and
not be attacked, but our bodies can react to separation
from tribes with the same fear as if we're under
thread of life.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That makes a lot of sense, I put it to
me like that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And humans, I think are particularly vulnerable in this way
because you see some other species like I always think
of I saw a giraffe being born once on the
news or something, and basically the baby giraffe drops out
and then can toddle off within half an hour or something.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Now it has to walk on those spindly legs.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes, probably still quite vulnerable. But as humans, we can't
care for ourselves, so we're incredibly dependent on our caregivers,
and if those relationships are probably then that can cause
issues in families.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
All right, Well, let's get to the questions from our listeners.
So the first one is my son has a partner
of four years. They live together, and they're planning to
start a family. She doesn't like me. It's hard to
write those words, but to be honest, it's just true.
At first, when my son would bring out of family occasions,
(05:33):
she would make a polite effort to make small talk
and share little stories from their lives. But now she
might only come to one in three family gatherings. Often
makes an excuse through my son about being busy or
having another family thing on. But I know she just
doesn't like me. I know we're quite different people. I
can be a bit loud and overshary, as my kids
(05:54):
tell me all the time, and she is definitely more
quiet and reserved. But I always dreamed that when our
kids found partners, our family would just get bigger and
that we'd all be close, and it's clear that's not
what's going to happen here. Recently, I've made new family
group chat and invited her so she can feel included,
but she hasn't even accepted that invite. Whenever I mention
(06:16):
it to my son, he just shuts down and changes
the subject or tells me I'm imagining it and she's
just busy, but I know it's me. I lie awake
worrying sometimes that if they have a baby, which my
son has been talking about, I will not be allowed
to be part of my grandchild's life, or and that
my son will just get further and further away from me.
What do I do? That's you know what when we
(06:40):
asked for dilemmas, a lot of women of the sort
of age that a lot of our listeners are had
problems with their children's partners and they were really worried
that they were going to fracture those relationships. It can
be quite fraught.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It can be very hard. And you know what I'm
hearing from this listener is that she's had a dream
and she's had aid.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
They were all going to be this big, happy, rowdy bunch.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Around the table and probably another daughter figure for her,
and that dream she's she's experiencing some grief in that
that dream is not being realized. If she was with me,
I'd be questioning the assumption that she has that this
partner doesn't like her, because.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
She's very in the way that she expresses it here.
She's very clear about it.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
She's quite definitely and she and it's and you know,
she may not be her cup of tea. They may
just be quite different. But also I'd be interested in
knowing about the partner's comfort level with family gatherings in general,
because she may be an only child, she may have
come from a very quiet family. Family may be traumatic
(07:52):
for her. So it may not be the mum in
Laura as such. It may be that the experience of
being in that family environment is just overwhelming, and she's
she caught a shy and reserved.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
In Yes, so our listener says that she is quite
overshary and a loud. Yeah, that's kind of negative words to
use about herself, but it.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Is probably.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And that the daughter in law is more quiet and reserved.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, and I'd be wondering if she's a bit anxious
as well. And it is lovely. I think over sharing.
I think sharing brings connection. So I think that and
that's that Mum's love language, or that's how she reacts
and connects with people. And even her own children are like,
oh Mom, just to just stop it. You know, it's
a little bit too much. So I think that this
(08:42):
woman is also projecting in terms of the future and
when they have children. And I understand she's nervous about
that about if there be some separation and distance, But
I'd try and keep that in perspective and be like,
she's worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. Even if
they have a child, she's worrying about something that hasn't
happened yet. And she can play a really important role
(09:04):
in her son's life still, you know, turn up with food,
all those things. When people have newborn's life gets turned
upside down. So she could play perhaps a practical role
or a practical way she can show her love might
even land with this daughter in law in a different way.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's so interesting, Jackie, that what I'm hearing you say
is that our listeners sort of made this decision. She
doesn't like me, she doesn't like coming to family gatherings.
She's going to take my son further away from me.
And what you're sort of saying is maybe you're not
connecting on them, like you too haven't connected yet because
(09:41):
you're not speaking the same language of family. Almost to
our listeners, she's like family is big gatherings and we're
all in each other's lives and we've got a group
chat going and all those things. And maybe it's not
that the daughter in law doesn't like her, but she's
just got a very different perspective. Yeah, should our listener
try a different way to connect with her, do you think? Look?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I think yes and no. I think that you know,
look at the connection and why is a connection with
her particularly important if if she's she doesn't need to
have a friendship with her as such?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I mean, I think we put a lot of pressure
on that relationship, that mother in law daughter and law relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But it doesn't have to be that way. Like, Yeah,
some mom in laws and daughter in laws probably like
to hang out occasionally and things, or maybe some have
their own sort of conversations and friendship, but I think
that's more unusual. I think it's more about keeping the
relationship open with her son and always being kind, you know,
trying to be understanding that everyone's different. My teenage kids
(10:37):
are very different to me, and this might be relevant
to this partner. They have a much smaller social battery
than me. Mum. That's what they tell me all the time.
That's I love being around people. I love going out,
I love you know, socializing and things like that, and
they like it to a degree, but they have a
much lower threshold than me. And I've just had to
accept that.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So my son's the same. And the thing is is
that now kids have that language too, don't they. So
my kid, who's a teenager too, he'll say to me,
I'm my social battery's dreaded.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
That's exactly what they do. And it's like, okay, you know, occasionally,
once a year or something, my social batteries drained, do
or I just need to just stay in. And that
could be the case here. It's not so much that
this woman doesn't like the mum in law. I think
that's a decision that's I don't think it's accurate. You know,
it's unless they've had a fight or conflict.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
It doesn't sound like it a little bit more. She's
finding the daughter in law a bit avoidant.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Maybe yeah, And she might be, and she might It
depends what she does for work as well, like because
some people have very people facing jobs. If she's a
teacher or something like that, she's in front of people
all day every day and just might not want to
be on a WhatsApp group because you know you're a parent.
Groups might have half of them are mute. You know,
(11:53):
it's like they It may just be that she doesn't
want that for herself. It's not personal to the listener.
Perhaps I think that's in the realm of possibilities anyway, So.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
This is so smart because basically what you're saying is
our listener. I don't want to paraphrase you, but it's
sort of saying, this is all about me, And what
you're sort of saying is it might not be all
about you.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
What's some practical advice for her? Because she says she's
lying awake at night worrying about this and worrying about
that they're going to have a baby and she's not
going to see them and all this catastrophizing that she's doing.
Do you have any practical advice for.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I do, especially for the people long awake at night
worrying about things. I often encourage my clients to do something.
It's a bit of an indelicate word, but I say
do a brain vomit, which is writing out your thoughts
in the middle of the night, in the middle of
the nights off and when things pop up, and there's space,
and there's quiet and a brain vomit is not a journal.
People get anxious about the idea of making a journal.
(12:47):
It's literally just pouring out whatever's in your brain out
onto a piece of paper or into your notes appy
if your phone's on, do not disturb and whatever, so
that you're not interrupted by your phone. And the purpose
of that is our brains. We don't run our brains.
We run a portion of them, and we can support them.
So our unconscious mind. If you have a thought and
(13:08):
it's got nagy around it, your brain will circulate those
thoughts and ruminate those thoughts around and around.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Familiar with this. This is a midlife thing that gets
worse too sometimes it.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Can, especially with hormones going crazy. So I don't know
why I picture this, but I picture a little sort
of dude in her unconscious in a Bob the Builder
had or something, and he detects a thought and his
job is to just keep us dinging that bell so
that that thought just goes around and round around. When
you vomit it out on a page, it puts Bob
the Builder to sleep, And so you can calm down
(13:40):
and you don't look at that. It doesn't have to
make sense. It can be swear words, it can be
whatever it is that's antagonizing you in that moment. Get
it out of your system. It's what i'd say, she's
tried to make approaches to her son. I probably, you know,
encourage that she's already done that. So I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
That's she says he shuts down and says, you're imagining it,
and that she's just busy.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, and that could be true if we take that
on face value again, like what does she do for
her career? No, you know, she might just be really busy.
She might have like a limited pocket of time and
wants to spend that with her friends or her family,
and doesn't enjoy coming to every single family event. Depends
how many family events they have to comes to one
in three, but do they have weekly dinners? And some
(14:25):
families are really enthusiastic, and really I've got one client
whose partner is super enthusiastic and has so many gatherings.
It's a lot, and she doesn't necessarily like to go
to every single thing either. But it's not personal, it's
she's just exhausted. So it could be that I would
(14:47):
try and just accept things as they are, except that
this woman is different and that her dream of having
a daughter in law which she could go shopping with
or catch up for coffee with possibly doesn't sound like
it's going to happen right now, But you never know
what might happen when they have children. She might become
more of a figure if she lives close to them.
That's really handy. New parents need support.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I do parenting. In my experience, there's lots of letting
go of all the things. She thought, it's going to
be like this, and they're going to be like that,
and they're going to do that, and it's going to
be like That's yeah, kids are rarely exactly who you
pictured them to be anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
No exactly, and they've got their own lives to live,
like our jobs to love them, support them, help them
grow into functioning people, and then they go off, maybe
to the other side of the world sometimes. So you know, yeah,
I did that too, and I didn't think of my
former so it was well I kind of did, but
for a nanosecond, And that's our job. Our children don't
(15:42):
belong to us. But hopefully by accepting I think she'll
find more connection forthcoming as well. I think if she
keeps pushing and pushing, it might work against her, So
I'd probably just try and get some self care along
with that as well. For her, she's obviously feeling it.
If she hasn't seen a professional, she might want to
do that just to talk through her feelings. Her feelings
(16:03):
are really valid as well. They're probably a couple of
practical tips.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I'd say that's really helped. After the break, we'll hear
from a woman who's trying to decide whether or not
to reconnect with her difficult mom who's nearing the end
of her life. Stay with us. Okay, this one, this
one is tricky. My mother is in her eighties and
(16:31):
really quite unwell. She moved into a care facility a
couple of years ago, and my brothers and I visit
her regularly, but we have never been a particularly close family.
My mother can be spiky and difficult and judgmental. Something
I've realized as I've gotten older and built my own
relationships and done some therapy too. Is just her own stuff,
(16:52):
probably from her childhood. But now that I can see
the end of her life ahead of us, I can't
shake the sadness that we might never be close and
all the missed opportunities we've had to have the kind
of mother daughter relationships I see around me. Oh my gosh,
I feel emotional. Is it too late to talk to
her about this, to be a good daughter in her
(17:12):
final months or years and to tell each other that
we're sorry for all the things we clashed over, or
at least should I do that. I've thought about writing
her a letter that me or someone else could read
to her. Is that a good idea? Oh, Jackie? Is
this is really sad because I think a little bit
like our first question. So often it's the picture of
(17:36):
how you think things should be.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, I was thinking that this is how they are, right.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It is her and there's a lot of poignancy in
this one. I was thinking that too, it echoes through
the relationship wasn't what she wanted it to be, and
she's wisely trying to understand that and understood that her
mum had limitations in whatever she experienced through her childhood,
which would affect how she fostered and promoted the relationship
(18:08):
with her and to siblings. She's asked is it too
late and I think it's never too late to try
and to try and connect and if she sits with it,
if she didn't do that, how would she feel if
she didn't at least try? She said another wise thing
there too, like should we apologize to each other about
(18:31):
the ways we've hurt each other or something like that
we'vehed over the things we've clashed over. And then she said,
or should I do that? And I think that's all
we can ever control is what we communicate. We can't
control anyone else's inputs. So I'd be encouraging this listener
to yes to think of that as a good idea
(18:53):
to perhaps get some support professionally while she works through
what it is she wants to express. Because the thing
I'll do with my clients is if there's a situation
like this and this is not uncommon, sadly, is to
prepare themselves emotionally for whatever reaction might come.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Because it might not go like the movie. They might know,
you know your loved one might not accept your apology
and want to participate in the same way.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
They may not want to listen. They may want to avoid,
They may get angry, They may say, oh no, that
never happened. They may I don't know. You know, there's
all sorts of reactions people can have, so a lot
of it's about context and setting the context. So for
her writing something is quite useful too, and I'd probably
take some time to get to the point where she's
(19:44):
got something she's happy with. I'd encourage her to learn
some communication tools that sort of neutralize the sting of
sometimes the things we might want to say, simple ones.
There's a communication tool called the non violent Communication Tool,
and it was first developed I think thirty forty years
(20:06):
ago in the prison system in America to try and
re juice punch ups between inmates. Basically, you try and
describe how you felt about a certain situation, and you
try and describe the situation and not the person, so
you might can take a bit of grammatical effort, which
is why it's good to prepare as well, not just
(20:26):
to go in blind to say something like, you know,
when I was told I was stupid or something growing up,
I felt devastated and like you didn't love me or
whatever it might be, rather than say when you said this,
and again, our primal brains will kick in when we
hear the word you in an argument. I mean, we
(20:48):
may not be aware of it, it may not be a
conscious thing, but we'll often get defensive and we'll often
feel like it's an attack, and it's not an attack.
Someone's trying to express themselves. But then the people can
shut down and not listen to what comes next. And
so sharing breeds intimacy as well. And perhaps the mum
had a different perspective of things as they were growing up,
(21:09):
all their conflicts, and so sharing how it was for
her could be a really healing thing for her, no
matter what her mum reacts with.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
It's so interesting that you say, you know, prepare yourself
to get a reaction. How do you do that? Because
a while ago on mid we had an amazing woman
who's like her. She's a death dueller, she's around.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I listened to that Jack.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
She was amazing and one of the things she said
about the end of life tricky family relationships is that
people are still who they are even when they're dying.
It's basically what she said. So if your dad is
a grumpy old bugger who never accepts responsibility, he's a
grumpy old bugger who never accepts responsibility in his last
days too.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, quite personally.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, no, I mean and she said that sometimes people
change and you do get those things that we see
in the movies where everybody cries and hold hands and
says you were right, I was wrong, but that often
not like often not. And so how do you kind
of prepare yourself like expectation wise? You know, you were saying,
our listener will probably feel better if she gets if
(22:18):
she says what she wants to say, as she said,
should I apologize or whatever, and you're saying, yeah, she
will probably feel better, but she how does she prepare
for like a stinging? I might not get exactly what
I want out of this.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
If I was working with her, I'd be looking at
what comes up for her in her body and any
anxiety about it and really doing some I'd do this
funny talk called tapping, and I'd be working on calming
down her stress.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Responses with that tapping is literally I mean, obviously you
have to know a lot more about it than what
I'm about to say, but it's like literally tapping.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Your body, right, it's like self actually sort.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Of lower your cortisol, like calm yourself down. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, that's one of the things it does, and it
can It can process ultraumatic memories as well. So if
this woman has some particular events with her mum that
she's really stinging, what it can do is car down
some of the stress chemicals that pop up when she
thinks about those times, so that she's not It's not
a magic wand it doesn't whitewash things, but it can
(23:18):
help restore calm versus the reactiveness that she's experiencing, so
it can help her go in with a more calming
type of feeling. I would also say to her if
she chooses to do this, is to take her time,
you know, to make not trying to rush it. To
say to her mom, you know, I think the letters
(23:41):
is probably a good idea because it gives her something
that she can but I think she should read it.
That would be my instincts to say, Mum, I've got
something that you know, kind of difficult for me to share.
How would it be for me to for you to
just listen to me while I share this and perhaps
hold my hand if that's something that feels appropriate, and
(24:03):
just really try and create that calm atmosphere in the room.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
With her.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
So that her mom doesn't just think she's popping in
for a cup of tea or something. I know, because
that's she knows what she wants to express to her mum.
Her mom may be someone that has buried a lot
of stuff that might have been a coping mechanism of hers,
and you never know what's going to come out. I
always think of this conversation. I don't know if you
know the psychologist Steve Bitoff. He's written a lot of books.
(24:31):
We listened to a conversation with him, a podcast with
him probably five years ago or so. He shared a
really interesting anecdote and it went like this, his father
when he was dying. So I don't know how old
Steve is, He's probably sixties or so. He grew up
in a rough northern town of England, I can't remember
which one, and his dad, on his deathbed in his
(24:53):
eighties or whatever, was really sad and crying while he
talked to Steve about this memory he had, which was
when Steve was a newborn baby, his father took him
for a walk through the town to give his mom
a break. He was mocked mercilessly in the talent. Who
do you think you are? You're a mammy or I
(25:14):
don't know, just like investigated. Yes, so I guess what.
He never did it again. And he was really crying
to Steve because he was apologizing, saying, I think it
really affected my relationship with you. So Steve grew up
with whatever beliefs he had that his dad didn't want
to be around him or whatever. But in actual fact
(25:35):
was this memory was so awful for Steve's dad that
he didn't connect. So things happen and it can cause disconnection.
And I think that her mum may have a different
viewpoint to her. She might not agree with her version
of events. We don't know, but I think for any
human being, if there's something still there, then it's worth sharing.
(25:59):
If it didn't bother her, it wouldn't be sitting with
her all these years later. And I think alongside the
grief of her mum going into her twilight years, is
it's common for the type of grief of what I
imagined would be.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It just wasn't for sure. It's a different kind of
grieving and just very quickly to kind of finish that off.
I mean, it's a heartbreaking dialect when my heart goes
out to her. But do you often hear people say
you don't want to have regrets when they're gone. Now,
grief is a difficult beast anyway, no matter what happens,
(26:33):
no matter what your relationship was like. But would you
subscribe to that? You're like, it will be easier, and
we're not Easier might not be the right word, but
it will be better if you get this out.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I always think, yeah, I do. I think it's given
the two choices, I think that it's probably a good
one to walk through that door. And I think that, yeah,
if I was working with her, you feel nervous, Like
you'd feel nervous about doing it. But what's the worst
that can happen. The worst that can happen is probably
her mum being cranky with her. But that's happened anyway. Yeah, true,
(27:10):
And so it might lead to it might lead to
good things. You just you don't know that he's in
the possibility pool as well. People often think of the
worst case scenario something it might be beautiful, but it
might be beautiful and a mom might actually give her
some insights or say sorry. She might actually share as well,
like we're opening that door. People are scared of sharing.
(27:32):
Not not the first mom. But by sharing you're in
a world, you do offer that opportunity to others to
share their inner worlds, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Up next, Jackie offers advice to a woman whose daughter
disapproves of her new boyfriend so much so she stopped
responding to messages and refuses to see her. Okay, this
one is a bit different. This slister is in a
happy place, but it's not making her family very happy.
So I'm fifty five and I've been divorced from the
(28:06):
father of my daughters for eight years. My good are
now twenty five and twenty seven and off doing their
own thing, but we've always been close and still see
each other a lot until now. For the past year,
I've been in a relationship with a man who is
ten years younger than me. We met on dating apps
when I decided it was time to get back out
there when the kids were gone. Most of the guys
(28:26):
my age on there were painful. For this man, I
won't say his name is lovely. We never thought it
would be serious, but it's become like that. We're talking
about moving in together. My youngest though, hates him, not
even him really, but the idea of him, and ever
since I told her we were seeing each other exclusively
and making plans for the future, she's just shut down
(28:47):
on me. She told me it's embarrassing. She told me
he's using me. And now our listener says, I'm not
sure what for. It's not like we've got lots of
money and he has his own good job and everything.
She met him a couple of times and was extremely rude,
and now she's just caught me off, telling me she
can't watch. She's not calling answering my messages. She missed
her sister's birthday barbecue because he was coming. I don't
(29:09):
want to lose my daughter, of course, but don't I
have a right to be happy?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Wow, Well, poor lady.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I know she's on this nice math Yeah yeah, yeah,
or at least we think he's nice. We don't know that.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
She so sounds happy.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It sounds what do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
It sounds to me like the daughter's got some issue
deeper than this guy. It sounds like she said she
went on dating apps after the children had left home.
So they've been divorced eight years.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It was time to get out there when the kids
were gone.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, so it's not like she was dating. It sounds
like she's only been dating for the last year or two, Like,
I don't know if this is the first guy she met,
so i'd be yeah, i'd be interested in looking at
her daughter's reaction. The youngest ones to the divorce. So
even though they were older than many children are in divorce,
it still affects people. I've had clients in their adulthood
(30:03):
being really affected by their parents' divorcing. And so I
don't know what happened in the divorce, what the divorce
was like, but I'd say that's probably really key to
think about also her own relationships, like maybe she's had
a break up herself and is in pain, and just
the idea of relationships seems off limits. I mean, this
(30:23):
guy's ten years younger, but ten years is not that much.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
It's not that much at fifty five, so it's forty five.
It's not like he's twenty twenty, Yeah, exactly, I mean,
which would be just also five, But I can imagine
why it would be more confronted, Like he's still twenty
years older than her daughter.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, he's still way older, and it's not personal to
him because she's only met him a couple of times
in the time she met him, she was really rude,
so she was shut down. She's really engaging with him.
It's sad that it's evolving into her missing like her
sister's birthday. I wonder how her sister feels about that,
And I wonder how her sister feels about mum and
mom's boyfriend as well. She doesn't mention that.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I mean, it sounds like she doesn't have as much
of a problem if she was happy to have. I mean,
it's interesting because I mean, I know that we shouldn't
say it should really here, but so her daughter missed
the barbecue because he was coming home. Do you think
that our listener should keep these things separate? Do you
(31:20):
think that so that it doesn't rock the boat, or
do you think that at some point that bundaid's got
to come off?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
So look that it would probably the other sister would
probably want to have some input in that too, because
she might get along really well with him and then
want like her birthday. But yeah, I mean, look, there's
a space for that. There is a space to connect
with her daughter separately. Absolutely, I think that children need
to have that focus in their adulthood. So if the
(31:46):
mum was taking her partner everywhere, that might be irritating
to her both her kids. So yeah, I do think
that there should be some separation there. But I also
think that this daughter's got stuff going on that mum
should explore with her and just talk to her gently
again setting context, come, you know, and I really want
(32:07):
to understand what's going on. Sounds to me like it's
the idea of mum being in a relationship at all,
not necessarily the age. I could be wrong there, but
she's used the word embarrassing, but could that be that, Yeah,
mum met him on a dating app and maybe she's
on dating apps and oh my god, you know, mum's
in my world.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And it can be confronting for adult kids to think
of their parents having sex.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah involved, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Having like falling in love and also just being out
there messy humans. Do you think because this is in
different areas, this comes up a bit about like we're
so women in particular, we're so invested in being good mothers,
Like if we are, if we are good mothers, I
guess that like does that job ever stop in a way,
like should we you sacrifice a lot for your kids. Yeah,
(32:58):
we all sacrifice a lot for our kids, and we
sacrifice if we're doing it right, I guess, and we
sacrifice a lot for them when they're little. Does that
Is there a point in which your kid's opinion shouldn't
really Yeah, look, I do think so.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I mean, I think their opinions are important, but I
shouldn't don't think it should dictate what she does. She's
not hurting anyone. She sounds pretty grounded, not swept off
her feet by You know, they've been together for a year.
They're not moving in together. Five minutes later, they're still
not moving in together yet, but they're talking about it.
He's got a good job, she's not. No, it doesn't
(33:32):
sound like that at all. Obviously he's not going to
be a step dad or anything like that. You know
that that ship is how the kids are grown up.
So to your point, I do think mums are people,
and so she's got to look at what brings her happiness.
Her kids are not. They're off doing their own life,
which they should be. That's that's fantastic, and mom should
be able to have some time to herself and if
(33:53):
that includes dating and having this wonderful relationship. Then yeah,
I do think that she should enjoy that. But to also,
I mean, this might sound strange, but I think family
therapy could be an idea for her if it really
gets stuck, this guy is really going to have a
future with her, Maybe the mum and both sisters go
(34:14):
to therapy together and that gives everyone a chance to
have a mediated type of space and time to express
what's going on. And the therapists are usually pretty pretty
interested in relationships, and so it wouldn't just be about
this guy like, they'd be looking a bit deeper. I
would think. So, if she's really stuck, that's certainly an option,
(34:35):
But I think some honest conversations do need to be
had about why she's reacting so much. She might be
really devastated that mum's moved on, because she might just
her dad. We don't know whether your dad is happy
or not, and maybe maybe you know dad's depressed and
not coping. Maybe she sees it as mum still having
(34:57):
to look after him, which is not the case. But
it's it's yeah, there's just more there. It's not I
try it for for the listener to try and keep
it in perspective that this can't be about him because
she doesn't even know him. But she's not willing to
entertain the thought of him yet. And I wouldn't force it,
like I would be slow in terms of trying to
(35:18):
get on them again. She might not ever really like
him as a person, but that's and that could be awkward.
Of course. Ideally should find it more comfortable to the
idea of her mum being with another man, and that
that's if it's not him, it's going to be somebody else,
So to try and just come to terms with that.
(35:42):
But it may be brought up the reality that their parents'
marriage is really over. And I know that sounds strange
because it's been eight years and she's twenty five, not fi,
but it can still what people's will when parents divorce
it even at older age, and she's maybe just coming
to terms with that. And A is not that long
(36:03):
to come to terms with the reality of things.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
And do you think that if they I mean maybe
they have who knows. If they talk about it and
they're fighting about it, it's going to make it worse, right,
So that's why you're suggesting like that family therapy might
be good or at least have conversations with in a
calm way with around or.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, I think so, And it might be that they
have an auntie or someone like that that can help.
Just listen to everyone, Like she doesn't want to shut
her daughter down, but she doesn't want to be dictated
by her daughter either, I would think so to honor
the daughter's feelings would be to listen to her and
look at how what where the pain is, what's what's
going on? How can she support her through that? What
(36:47):
does she feel comfortable with at this stage? And be
honest and authentic, like I love this guy, I do
want to be with this guy. How can we support
everyone's needs and take it from there? It could be
a slow road, so you have some patience, Mum.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
It's like you've got to honor her feelings but also
live her life.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I've got Yeah, I seen that year's you know, she
hasn't done it five minutes later and they're not. You
know a lot of women do, and that's that's that's
their choices. But it's for whatever reason this this daughter's
having a reaction, a big reaction, big.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Reaction, big feelings. Jackie. Generally, when because as we've said, like,
families have a lot of complicated dynamics. When would you
recommend that people do seek professional help for this kind
of stuff? And is it sometimes just too far gone?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Look, it can be some people do choose to cease
contact with family, and it's always a really big decision.
Often there in cases where perhaps there's been some abusive
parenting there and people have tried to either live with that,
(37:59):
they've had to live with that for a while, and
they've had to turn up to family events and then
they start to go, I just can't do it anymore.
Perhaps they've had their own children and they don't want to.
And I'm not talking about really sexual abuse, although that
does happen, but just abusiveness in different ways.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I've seen people in my life who when they have kids,
sometimes it makes them reflect on their own parenting, like
how they were parented.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Usually doesn't really bad. It can be quite triggered, yes,
and in it like.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
I can't believe my mum said that whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, often these light bulbs go off like, oh, wow,
I'd never do that with my child. I can't believe
I experienced that. And also seeing children is really interesting
because they're tiny and vulnerable. So often we've had thoughts
about our childhood, but childhood kind of gets lumped in
this I don't know, in a lump. So but when
you see your tiny little two year old or four
year old or whatever, you realize how tiny and gorgeous
(38:55):
and vulnerable little children are and if they were being
hit or I don't know all the things that do happen.
So sometimes you know, I am working through with clients
making that decision, and you know, with any therapy, I'd
never tell them what to do. But sometimes it's my
place to support them in honoring their own needs and
to seize contact whatever that looks like. Sometimes it does
(39:18):
mean still turning up to family events, but they might
not just not have any interaction in between, like weddings
and funerals and all those things are pretty hard to avoid.
Sometimes sometimes it's for a period of time, so some
people might just cut off from their family for a
year or three years or something to recover and heal
and find their boundaries so that they may be able
(39:39):
to be in the be in a space with their
parents or family, but know their own boundaries better and
know how to plan escape not escape roads. That sounds dramatic,
but like to plan to.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Not find themselves in a really heightened, tricky stance.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
And to feel empowered to go. You can't talk to
me like that, or I won't be talked to like that.
I broke my own rule there put the U in front.
But you know I won't be talking to you like
that anymore. I'm leaving and people can change. They can.
I'm optimistic with that, but some some people, I don't know.
Some people can't. In terms of when to seek family therapy,
(40:19):
I would say, you know, your family are really important.
They're really important key figures in your life. And if
there's a point of clashing or difference that you've tried
to talk about, you don't have to have tried to
talk about. Some people are just really nervous to talk
to their family a strangers that may seem about big things.
And what therapy does is it offers your space, so
it's not necessarily things don't necessarily have to be broken
(40:43):
to come to therapy either. People often have that misconception
in their mind even for individual therapy, like oh, it
must be really really bad if I'm going to go
see a therapist. It's not that at all. Giving you
time out of the world in space with someone with
a professional who's done a lot of work and reading
and research, but also just really got life experiences from
(41:04):
their other clients about how people operate and what might
be triggered and helping people, helping illuminate what might be
happening for the other person. So say that mum suggests therapy,
it's not necessarily therapy for her, it's therapy for the
relationship between her and her daughter, and so the therapist
won't take sides as such. It's more about going this
(41:25):
is what I'm saying going on here, and this is
looking at how to protect that and nurture that relationship
between whether it's two people or whether it's four people
or whatever it might be. I think people, if they're stuck,
give it a go, like, you know, do something different,
change the space, change the outcome, and maybe others in
(41:48):
their family would welcome it because they don't know what
to do either. Some people do react and go no, no,
I'm not going to see when I am so, you know,
and that may stay or they may change their mind.
But I think it's something you can access and people to,
you know, often talk to people about sibling. You know,
getting therapy between siblings things like that can be really
really enlightening and useful, and.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
My god, I can't imagine the things that would come
up and sibling therapy.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
It's fantastic. I actually did it with my sister six
years or something, and we're really close and we've always
been close, and we were close all through therapy as well,
but it was it just got us even deeper and
closer and more amazing just uncovered. You know, it just
gave us some space to air some things that some
really you know, we had a lack of resources in
(42:37):
our family. Beautiful parents, but you know, they had a
lot going on, and so it gave us a chance
to air how it was for us growing up really
and which we had talked about. But it was just
it was just a different space. I think. I think
we're both interested in life and people and diving deep.
So we probably could have done it just me and her,
(42:58):
but we went for six sessions, I think, and we
were so grateful, Like it was just it was really lovely.
So it was a really positive experience to do. It
wasn't scary. Well maybe we're britten over in the beginning,
but it was. It was, and we loved each other deeply,
like that connection was still was always there. It wasn't.
We weren't on the brink of separating or anything like that,
(43:19):
but it just helped us breathe a bit better. I
think it's lovely. Yeah, it was good. That was really good.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Thank you so much, Jackie. That's been exceptionally helpful.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Well, I say it's been helpful. I'm not the listeners,
but I imagine it's been helpful. I've really enjoyed having
those conversations, and I.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Hope they get something out of it, and you know,
there's there's more that they can explore. I think it's
often just sitting and reflecting and diving deep doesn't hurt.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Well, thank you so much for doing being here with
us today. Obviously we'll put links in our show notes
to where people can find out more about what you
do and where they can look for help themselves. But
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah, my pleasure, Jackie. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Okay, if you enjoyed that common about non perfect families
and Jackie's smart advice, may I invite you, my mid friends,
to scroll back and listen to one of my very
favorite episodes of Mid with the amazing writer Caroline Baum.
She writes about her mum. I stole the term vinegary
mother from Caroline in the intro. Today she writes about
(44:29):
when her mom moved in with her late in life
and everything kind of went well to shit, let's be honest,
and Caroline talks so beautifully about it. She's written a
memoir about this part of her life. It's a great episode.
If you want to scroll back to season four and
find the interview with Caroline Baum, I think you'll find
it very interesting. The executive producer of this episode of
(44:53):
Mid is Niama Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, and
there's been audio production from Jacob Brown. And if you
have anything you would like to tell us about MID,
a dilemma you would like us to answer, please feel
free to dm me on Instagram or to dm the
Mid by MoMA Mia account, or you can even email
us at help me at mamamea dot com dot au.
(45:14):
Until I hear from you, We'll see you next week. Bye.
You're listening to Amma mea podcast. Mamma Mere acknowledges the
traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is
recorded on. Families are supposed to be happy. That's the
dream we were all sold. Even if the one we
came from was not. We all want to believe the
(00:31):
one that we build certainly will be. No. One cradles
a baby bump, thinking one day this kid won't call
me back. No skipping, hopscotching child looks up at their
marm and thinks, one day, sure, judge me so harshly,
I'll have to turn away. No parent packs the school
lunch into the oversized backpack, imagining one day the person
(00:54):
this little one loves more than me will come between us. No.
Families are supposed to be happy. But we're all old
enough and wise enough to know families are so much
more than that. They are what sustains us and what
screws us up. They are the evolving answer to the
(01:15):
question what can I live with? What can I forgive?
What can I raise? What can I celebrate? And all
the silence that can open up in the gaps cracked
open by a fractured family can be the most painful
thing of all, an empty chair and a phone that
doesn't beep, the quiet holidays, the pain of pushing away,
(01:38):
the constant what ifs that should have said. The y
means the question what's worth this? Yes, families are supposed
to be happy, but they are so much more than that. Hello. Hello,
I am Holly Wainwright, and I am mid midlife, mid family,
(02:01):
mid figuring it all out this season of mid We
are answering your dilemmas, the things that are keeping you
up at night, you know, besides the hormones, because we
have hit the messy middle and there is a lot
to unpack here today. All your dilemmas were answering are
about family estrangement, the term for when the happy family
(02:21):
myth falls apart and turns to silence or recrimination or
drama or worry. We are talking about a mother who's
afraid that her new daughter in law will take a
boy away, a daughter struggling to make peace with a
vinegary mother, a mother on the brink of losing a
daughter over love. And because I am all care but
no expertise in this department, I have called in someone
(02:44):
who knows some stuff, Jackie Manning. Jackie is known as
the Friendly Psychologist and she has twenty five years of
experience and a clinical practice in Sydney. You might have
seen her on TV or on YouTube or on radio
with my old mate Andrew Daddo. Jackie came in to
help me with your dilemmas. But please remember, as always
(03:06):
that this is general advice only, and if you're struggling
in any way, make sure to see a health professional
who can advise you specifically. There are going to be
some links in our show notes to point you in
the right direction, But in the meantime, here's Jackie and
here are your dilemmas about families. Jackie, thank you so
(03:27):
much for joining us today to help me answer some
of our mid listeners questions.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
It's lovely to be with you, holl.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
It's really interesting because we get a lot of questions
about families, and it's people can feel this big sense
of failure if their family relationships aren't like the ones
we see all around us in movies and you know,
happy families and on social media on Mother's Day and
all that, it can feel like such a failure. If
(03:53):
your family doesn't seem like.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
That, it can and it can actually trigger fear in
people too, And the reason for that is our bodies
are very ancient in their makeup, and our safety has
in most of the history of humanity depended on being
part of a tribe. Yeah, right, and yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
So the fear of being cast out and alone is
a very primal one.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Very primal and very real. So our brains and our
neurochemistry don't know that. We can go to woolies and
get some food, or you live in a house and
not be attacked, but our bodies can react to separation
from tribes with the same fear as if we're under
thread of life.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
That makes a lot of sense, I put it to
me like that.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
And humans, I think are particularly vulnerable in this way
because you see some other species like I always think
of I saw a giraffe being born once on the
news or something, and basically the baby giraffe drops out
and then can toddle off within half an hour or something.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Now it has to walk on those spindly legs.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
Yes, probably still quite vulnerable. But as humans, we can't
care for ourselves, so we're incredibly dependent on our caregivers,
and if those relationships are probably then that can cause
issues in families.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
All right, Well, let's get to the questions from our listeners.
So the first one is my son has a partner
of four years. They live together, and they're planning to
start a family. She doesn't like me. It's hard to
write those words, but to be honest, it's just true.
At first, when my son would bring out of family occasions,
(05:33):
she would make a polite effort to make small talk
and share little stories from their lives. But now she
might only come to one in three family gatherings. Often
makes an excuse through my son about being busy or
having another family thing on. But I know she just
doesn't like me. I know we're quite different people. I
can be a bit loud and overshary, as my kids
(05:54):
tell me all the time, and she is definitely more
quiet and reserved. But I always dreamed that when our
kids found partners, our family would just get bigger and
that we'd all be close, and it's clear that's not
what's going to happen here. Recently, I've made new family
group chat and invited her so she can feel included,
but she hasn't even accepted that invite. Whenever I mention
(06:16):
it to my son, he just shuts down and changes
the subject or tells me I'm imagining it and she's
just busy, but I know it's me. I lie awake
worrying sometimes that if they have a baby, which my
son has been talking about, I will not be allowed
to be part of my grandchild's life, or and that
my son will just get further and further away from me.
What do I do? That's you know what when we
(06:40):
asked for dilemmas, a lot of women of the sort
of age that a lot of our listeners are had
problems with their children's partners and they were really worried
that they were going to fracture those relationships. It can
be quite fraught.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It can be very hard. And you know what I'm
hearing from this listener is that she's had a dream
and she's had aid.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
They were all going to be this big, happy, rowdy bunch.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Around the table and probably another daughter figure for her,
and that dream she's she's experiencing some grief in that
that dream is not being realized. If she was with me,
I'd be questioning the assumption that she has that this
partner doesn't like her, because.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
She's very in the way that she expresses it here.
She's very clear about it.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
She's quite definitely and she and it's and you know,
she may not be her cup of tea. They may
just be quite different. But also I'd be interested in
knowing about the partner's comfort level with family gatherings in general,
because she may be an only child, she may have
come from a very quiet family. Family may be traumatic
(07:52):
for her. So it may not be the mum in
Laura as such. It may be that the experience of
being in that family environment is just overwhelming, and she's
she caught a shy and reserved.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
In Yes, so our listener says that she is quite
overshary and a loud. Yeah, that's kind of negative words to
use about herself, but it.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Is probably.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
And that the daughter in law is more quiet and reserved.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, and I'd be wondering if she's a bit anxious
as well. And it is lovely. I think over sharing.
I think sharing brings connection. So I think that and
that's that Mum's love language, or that's how she reacts
and connects with people. And even her own children are like,
oh Mom, just to just stop it. You know, it's
a little bit too much. So I think that this
(08:42):
woman is also projecting in terms of the future and
when they have children. And I understand she's nervous about
that about if there be some separation and distance, But
I'd try and keep that in perspective and be like,
she's worrying about something that hasn't happened yet. Even if
they have a child, she's worrying about something that hasn't
happened yet. And she can play a really important role
(09:04):
in her son's life still, you know, turn up with food,
all those things. When people have newborn's life gets turned
upside down. So she could play perhaps a practical role
or a practical way she can show her love might
even land with this daughter in law in a different way.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's so interesting, Jackie, that what I'm hearing you say
is that our listeners sort of made this decision. She
doesn't like me, she doesn't like coming to family gatherings.
She's going to take my son further away from me.
And what you're sort of saying is maybe you're not
connecting on them, like you too haven't connected yet because
(09:41):
you're not speaking the same language of family. Almost to
our listeners, she's like family is big gatherings and we're
all in each other's lives and we've got a group
chat going and all those things. And maybe it's not
that the daughter in law doesn't like her, but she's
just got a very different perspective. Yeah, should our listener
try a different way to connect with her, do you think? Look?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
I think yes and no. I think that you know,
look at the connection and why is a connection with
her particularly important if if she's she doesn't need to
have a friendship with her as such?
Speaker 1 (10:12):
I mean, I think we put a lot of pressure
on that relationship, that mother in law daughter and law relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
But it doesn't have to be that way. Like, Yeah,
some mom in laws and daughter in laws probably like
to hang out occasionally and things, or maybe some have
their own sort of conversations and friendship, but I think
that's more unusual. I think it's more about keeping the
relationship open with her son and always being kind, you know,
trying to be understanding that everyone's different. My teenage kids
(10:37):
are very different to me, and this might be relevant
to this partner. They have a much smaller social battery
than me. Mum. That's what they tell me all the time.
That's I love being around people. I love going out,
I love you know, socializing and things like that, and
they like it to a degree, but they have a
much lower threshold than me. And I've just had to
accept that.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
So my son's the same. And the thing is is
that now kids have that language too, don't they. So
my kid, who's a teenager too, he'll say to me,
I'm my social battery's dreaded.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
That's exactly what they do. And it's like, okay, you know, occasionally,
once a year or something, my social batteries drained, do
or I just need to just stay in. And that
could be the case here. It's not so much that
this woman doesn't like the mum in law. I think
that's a decision that's I don't think it's accurate. You know,
it's unless they've had a fight or conflict.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
It doesn't sound like it a little bit more. She's
finding the daughter in law a bit avoidant.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Maybe yeah, And she might be, and she might It
depends what she does for work as well, like because
some people have very people facing jobs. If she's a
teacher or something like that, she's in front of people
all day every day and just might not want to
be on a WhatsApp group because you know you're a parent.
Groups might have half of them are mute. You know,
(11:53):
it's like they It may just be that she doesn't
want that for herself. It's not personal to the listener.
Perhaps I think that's in the realm of possibilities anyway, So.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
This is so smart because basically what you're saying is
our listener. I don't want to paraphrase you, but it's
sort of saying, this is all about me, And what
you're sort of saying is it might not be all
about you.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
What's some practical advice for her? Because she says she's
lying awake at night worrying about this and worrying about
that they're going to have a baby and she's not
going to see them and all this catastrophizing that she's doing.
Do you have any practical advice for.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I do, especially for the people long awake at night
worrying about things. I often encourage my clients to do something.
It's a bit of an indelicate word, but I say
do a brain vomit, which is writing out your thoughts
in the middle of the night, in the middle of
the nights off and when things pop up, and there's space,
and there's quiet and a brain vomit is not a journal.
People get anxious about the idea of making a journal.
(12:47):
It's literally just pouring out whatever's in your brain out
onto a piece of paper or into your notes appy
if your phone's on, do not disturb and whatever, so
that you're not interrupted by your phone. And the purpose
of that is our brains. We don't run our brains.
We run a portion of them, and we can support them.
So our unconscious mind. If you have a thought and
(13:08):
it's got nagy around it, your brain will circulate those
thoughts and ruminate those thoughts around and around.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Familiar with this. This is a midlife thing that gets
worse too sometimes it.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Can, especially with hormones going crazy. So I don't know
why I picture this, but I picture a little sort
of dude in her unconscious in a Bob the Builder
had or something, and he detects a thought and his
job is to just keep us dinging that bell so
that that thought just goes around and round around. When
you vomit it out on a page, it puts Bob
the Builder to sleep, And so you can calm down
(13:40):
and you don't look at that. It doesn't have to
make sense. It can be swear words, it can be
whatever it is that's antagonizing you in that moment. Get
it out of your system. It's what i'd say, she's
tried to make approaches to her son. I probably, you know,
encourage that she's already done that. So I don't know if.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
That's she says he shuts down and says, you're imagining it,
and that she's just busy.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yeah, and that could be true if we take that
on face value again, like what does she do for
her career? No, you know, she might just be really busy.
She might have like a limited pocket of time and
wants to spend that with her friends or her family,
and doesn't enjoy coming to every single family event. Depends
how many family events they have to comes to one
in three, but do they have weekly dinners? And some
(14:25):
families are really enthusiastic, and really I've got one client
whose partner is super enthusiastic and has so many gatherings.
It's a lot, and she doesn't necessarily like to go
to every single thing either. But it's not personal, it's
she's just exhausted. So it could be that I would
(14:47):
try and just accept things as they are, except that
this woman is different and that her dream of having
a daughter in law which she could go shopping with
or catch up for coffee with possibly doesn't sound like
it's going to happen right now, But you never know
what might happen when they have children. She might become
more of a figure if she lives close to them.
That's really handy. New parents need support.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I do parenting. In my experience, there's lots of letting
go of all the things. She thought, it's going to
be like this, and they're going to be like that,
and they're going to do that, and it's going to
be like That's yeah, kids are rarely exactly who you
pictured them to be anyway.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
No exactly, and they've got their own lives to live,
like our jobs to love them, support them, help them
grow into functioning people, and then they go off, maybe
to the other side of the world sometimes. So you know, yeah,
I did that too, and I didn't think of my
former so it was well I kind of did, but
for a nanosecond, And that's our job. Our children don't
(15:42):
belong to us. But hopefully by accepting I think she'll
find more connection forthcoming as well. I think if she
keeps pushing and pushing, it might work against her, So
I'd probably just try and get some self care along
with that as well. For her, she's obviously feeling it.
If she hasn't seen a professional, she might want to
do that just to talk through her feelings. Her feelings
(16:03):
are really valid as well. They're probably a couple of
practical tips.
Speaker 1 (16:07):
I'd say that's really helped. After the break, we'll hear
from a woman who's trying to decide whether or not
to reconnect with her difficult mom who's nearing the end
of her life. Stay with us. Okay, this one, this
one is tricky. My mother is in her eighties and
(16:31):
really quite unwell. She moved into a care facility a
couple of years ago, and my brothers and I visit
her regularly, but we have never been a particularly close family.
My mother can be spiky and difficult and judgmental. Something
I've realized as I've gotten older and built my own
relationships and done some therapy too. Is just her own stuff,
(16:52):
probably from her childhood. But now that I can see
the end of her life ahead of us, I can't
shake the sadness that we might never be close and
all the missed opportunities we've had to have the kind
of mother daughter relationships I see around me. Oh my gosh,
I feel emotional. Is it too late to talk to
her about this, to be a good daughter in her
(17:12):
final months or years and to tell each other that
we're sorry for all the things we clashed over, or
at least should I do that. I've thought about writing
her a letter that me or someone else could read
to her. Is that a good idea? Oh, Jackie? Is
this is really sad because I think a little bit
like our first question. So often it's the picture of
(17:36):
how you think things should be.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
Yeah, I was thinking that this is how they are, right.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
It's really hard.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
It is her and there's a lot of poignancy in
this one. I was thinking that too, it echoes through
the relationship wasn't what she wanted it to be, and
she's wisely trying to understand that and understood that her
mum had limitations in whatever she experienced through her childhood,
which would affect how she fostered and promoted the relationship
(18:08):
with her and to siblings. She's asked is it too
late and I think it's never too late to try
and to try and connect and if she sits with it,
if she didn't do that, how would she feel if
she didn't at least try? She said another wise thing
there too, like should we apologize to each other about
(18:31):
the ways we've hurt each other or something like that
we'vehed over the things we've clashed over. And then she said,
or should I do that? And I think that's all
we can ever control is what we communicate. We can't
control anyone else's inputs. So I'd be encouraging this listener
to yes to think of that as a good idea
(18:53):
to perhaps get some support professionally while she works through
what it is she wants to express. Because the thing
I'll do with my clients is if there's a situation
like this and this is not uncommon, sadly, is to
prepare themselves emotionally for whatever reaction might come.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Because it might not go like the movie. They might know,
you know your loved one might not accept your apology
and want to participate in the same way.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
They may not want to listen. They may want to avoid,
They may get angry, They may say, oh no, that
never happened. They may I don't know. You know, there's
all sorts of reactions people can have, so a lot
of it's about context and setting the context. So for
her writing something is quite useful too, and I'd probably
take some time to get to the point where she's
(19:44):
got something she's happy with. I'd encourage her to learn
some communication tools that sort of neutralize the sting of
sometimes the things we might want to say, simple ones.
There's a communication tool called the non violent Communication Tool,
and it was first developed I think thirty forty years
(20:06):
ago in the prison system in America to try and
re juice punch ups between inmates. Basically, you try and
describe how you felt about a certain situation, and you
try and describe the situation and not the person, so
you might can take a bit of grammatical effort, which
is why it's good to prepare as well, not just
(20:26):
to go in blind to say something like, you know,
when I was told I was stupid or something growing up,
I felt devastated and like you didn't love me or
whatever it might be, rather than say when you said this,
and again, our primal brains will kick in when we
hear the word you in an argument. I mean, we
(20:48):
may not be aware of it, it may not be a
conscious thing, but we'll often get defensive and we'll often
feel like it's an attack, and it's not an attack.
Someone's trying to express themselves. But then the people can
shut down and not listen to what comes next. And
so sharing breeds intimacy as well. And perhaps the mum
had a different perspective of things as they were growing up,
(21:09):
all their conflicts, and so sharing how it was for
her could be a really healing thing for her, no
matter what her mum reacts with.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
It's so interesting that you say, you know, prepare yourself
to get a reaction. How do you do that? Because
a while ago on mid we had an amazing woman
who's like her. She's a death dueller, she's around.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
I listened to that Jack.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
She was amazing and one of the things she said
about the end of life tricky family relationships is that
people are still who they are even when they're dying.
It's basically what she said. So if your dad is
a grumpy old bugger who never accepts responsibility, he's a
grumpy old bugger who never accepts responsibility in his last
days too.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, quite personally.
Speaker 1 (21:57):
Yeah, no, I mean and she said that sometimes people
change and you do get those things that we see
in the movies where everybody cries and hold hands and
says you were right, I was wrong, but that often
not like often not. And so how do you kind
of prepare yourself like expectation wise? You know, you were saying,
our listener will probably feel better if she gets if
(22:18):
she says what she wants to say, as she said,
should I apologize or whatever, and you're saying, yeah, she
will probably feel better, but she how does she prepare
for like a stinging? I might not get exactly what
I want out of this.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
If I was working with her, I'd be looking at
what comes up for her in her body and any
anxiety about it and really doing some I'd do this
funny talk called tapping, and I'd be working on calming
down her stress.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Responses with that tapping is literally I mean, obviously you
have to know a lot more about it than what
I'm about to say, but it's like literally tapping.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Your body, right, it's like self actually sort.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
Of lower your cortisol, like calm yourself down. Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, that's one of the things it does, and it
can It can process ultraumatic memories as well. So if
this woman has some particular events with her mum that
she's really stinging, what it can do is car down
some of the stress chemicals that pop up when she
thinks about those times, so that she's not It's not
a magic wand it doesn't whitewash things, but it can
(23:18):
help restore calm versus the reactiveness that she's experiencing, so
it can help her go in with a more calming
type of feeling. I would also say to her if
she chooses to do this, is to take her time,
you know, to make not trying to rush it. To
say to her mom, you know, I think the letters
(23:41):
is probably a good idea because it gives her something
that she can but I think she should read it.
That would be my instincts to say, Mum, I've got
something that you know, kind of difficult for me to share.
How would it be for me to for you to
just listen to me while I share this and perhaps
hold my hand if that's something that feels appropriate, and
(24:03):
just really try and create that calm atmosphere in the room.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
With her.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
So that her mom doesn't just think she's popping in
for a cup of tea or something. I know, because
that's she knows what she wants to express to her mum.
Her mom may be someone that has buried a lot
of stuff that might have been a coping mechanism of hers,
and you never know what's going to come out. I
always think of this conversation. I don't know if you
know the psychologist Steve Bitoff. He's written a lot of books.
(24:31):
We listened to a conversation with him, a podcast with
him probably five years ago or so. He shared a
really interesting anecdote and it went like this, his father
when he was dying. So I don't know how old
Steve is, He's probably sixties or so. He grew up
in a rough northern town of England, I can't remember
which one, and his dad, on his deathbed in his
(24:53):
eighties or whatever, was really sad and crying while he
talked to Steve about this memory he had, which was
when Steve was a newborn baby, his father took him
for a walk through the town to give his mom
a break. He was mocked mercilessly in the talent. Who
do you think you are? You're a mammy or I
(25:14):
don't know, just like investigated. Yes, so I guess what.
He never did it again. And he was really crying
to Steve because he was apologizing, saying, I think it
really affected my relationship with you. So Steve grew up
with whatever beliefs he had that his dad didn't want
to be around him or whatever. But in actual fact
(25:35):
was this memory was so awful for Steve's dad that
he didn't connect. So things happen and it can cause disconnection.
And I think that her mum may have a different
viewpoint to her. She might not agree with her version
of events. We don't know, but I think for any
human being, if there's something still there, then it's worth sharing.
(25:59):
If it didn't bother her, it wouldn't be sitting with
her all these years later. And I think alongside the
grief of her mum going into her twilight years, is
it's common for the type of grief of what I
imagined would be.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
It just wasn't for sure. It's a different kind of
grieving and just very quickly to kind of finish that off.
I mean, it's a heartbreaking dialect when my heart goes
out to her. But do you often hear people say
you don't want to have regrets when they're gone. Now,
grief is a difficult beast anyway, no matter what happens,
(26:33):
no matter what your relationship was like. But would you
subscribe to that? You're like, it will be easier, and
we're not Easier might not be the right word, but
it will be better if you get this out.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
I always think, yeah, I do. I think it's given
the two choices, I think that it's probably a good
one to walk through that door. And I think that, yeah,
if I was working with her, you feel nervous, Like
you'd feel nervous about doing it. But what's the worst
that can happen. The worst that can happen is probably
her mum being cranky with her. But that's happened anyway. Yeah, true,
(27:10):
And so it might lead to it might lead to
good things. You just you don't know that he's in
the possibility pool as well. People often think of the
worst case scenario something it might be beautiful, but it
might be beautiful and a mom might actually give her
some insights or say sorry. She might actually share as well,
like we're opening that door. People are scared of sharing.
(27:32):
Not not the first mom. But by sharing you're in
a world, you do offer that opportunity to others to
share their inner worlds, and I think that's a beautiful thing.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Up next, Jackie offers advice to a woman whose daughter
disapproves of her new boyfriend so much so she stopped
responding to messages and refuses to see her. Okay, this
one is a bit different. This slister is in a
happy place, but it's not making her family very happy.
So I'm fifty five and I've been divorced from the
(28:06):
father of my daughters for eight years. My good are
now twenty five and twenty seven and off doing their
own thing, but we've always been close and still see
each other a lot until now. For the past year,
I've been in a relationship with a man who is
ten years younger than me. We met on dating apps
when I decided it was time to get back out
there when the kids were gone. Most of the guys
(28:26):
my age on there were painful. For this man, I
won't say his name is lovely. We never thought it
would be serious, but it's become like that. We're talking
about moving in together. My youngest though, hates him, not
even him really, but the idea of him, and ever
since I told her we were seeing each other exclusively
and making plans for the future, she's just shut down
(28:47):
on me. She told me it's embarrassing. She told me
he's using me. And now our listener says, I'm not
sure what for. It's not like we've got lots of
money and he has his own good job and everything.
She met him a couple of times and was extremely rude,
and now she's just caught me off, telling me she
can't watch. She's not calling answering my messages. She missed
her sister's birthday barbecue because he was coming. I don't
(29:09):
want to lose my daughter, of course, but don't I
have a right to be happy?
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Wow, Well, poor lady.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
I know she's on this nice math Yeah yeah, yeah,
or at least we think he's nice. We don't know that.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
She so sounds happy.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
It sounds what do you think?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
It sounds to me like the daughter's got some issue
deeper than this guy. It sounds like she said she
went on dating apps after the children had left home.
So they've been divorced eight years.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
It was time to get out there when the kids
were gone.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, so it's not like she was dating. It sounds
like she's only been dating for the last year or two, Like,
I don't know if this is the first guy she met,
so i'd be yeah, i'd be interested in looking at
her daughter's reaction. The youngest ones to the divorce. So
even though they were older than many children are in divorce,
it still affects people. I've had clients in their adulthood
(30:03):
being really affected by their parents' divorcing. And so I
don't know what happened in the divorce, what the divorce
was like, but I'd say that's probably really key to
think about also her own relationships, like maybe she's had
a break up herself and is in pain, and just
the idea of relationships seems off limits. I mean, this
(30:23):
guy's ten years younger, but ten years is not that much.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
It's not that much at fifty five, so it's forty five.
It's not like he's twenty twenty, Yeah, exactly, I mean,
which would be just also five, But I can imagine
why it would be more confronted, Like he's still twenty
years older than her daughter.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, he's still way older, and it's not personal to
him because she's only met him a couple of times
in the time she met him, she was really rude,
so she was shut down. She's really engaging with him.
It's sad that it's evolving into her missing like her
sister's birthday. I wonder how her sister feels about that,
And I wonder how her sister feels about mum and
mom's boyfriend as well. She doesn't mention that.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
I mean, it sounds like she doesn't have as much
of a problem if she was happy to have. I mean,
it's interesting because I mean, I know that we shouldn't
say it should really here, but so her daughter missed
the barbecue because he was coming home. Do you think
that our listener should keep these things separate? Do you
(31:20):
think that so that it doesn't rock the boat, or
do you think that at some point that bundaid's got
to come off?
Speaker 2 (31:25):
So look that it would probably the other sister would
probably want to have some input in that too, because
she might get along really well with him and then
want like her birthday. But yeah, I mean, look, there's
a space for that. There is a space to connect
with her daughter separately. Absolutely, I think that children need
to have that focus in their adulthood. So if the
(31:46):
mum was taking her partner everywhere, that might be irritating
to her both her kids. So yeah, I do think
that there should be some separation there. But I also
think that this daughter's got stuff going on that mum
should explore with her and just talk to her gently
again setting context, come, you know, and I really want
(32:07):
to understand what's going on. Sounds to me like it's
the idea of mum being in a relationship at all,
not necessarily the age. I could be wrong there, but
she's used the word embarrassing, but could that be that, Yeah,
mum met him on a dating app and maybe she's
on dating apps and oh my god, you know, mum's
in my world.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
And it can be confronting for adult kids to think
of their parents having sex.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah involved, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Having like falling in love and also just being out
there messy humans. Do you think because this is in
different areas, this comes up a bit about like we're
so women in particular, we're so invested in being good mothers,
Like if we are, if we are good mothers, I
guess that like does that job ever stop in a way,
like should we you sacrifice a lot for your kids. Yeah,
(32:58):
we all sacrifice a lot for our kids, and we
sacrifice if we're doing it right, I guess, and we
sacrifice a lot for them when they're little. Does that
Is there a point in which your kid's opinion shouldn't
really Yeah, look, I do think so.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
I mean, I think their opinions are important, but I
shouldn't don't think it should dictate what she does. She's
not hurting anyone. She sounds pretty grounded, not swept off
her feet by You know, they've been together for a year.
They're not moving in together. Five minutes later, they're still
not moving in together yet, but they're talking about it.
He's got a good job, she's not. No, it doesn't
(33:32):
sound like that at all. Obviously he's not going to
be a step dad or anything like that. You know
that that ship is how the kids are grown up.
So to your point, I do think mums are people,
and so she's got to look at what brings her happiness.
Her kids are not. They're off doing their own life,
which they should be. That's that's fantastic, and mom should
be able to have some time to herself and if
(33:53):
that includes dating and having this wonderful relationship. Then yeah,
I do think that she should enjoy that. But to also,
I mean, this might sound strange, but I think family
therapy could be an idea for her if it really
gets stuck, this guy is really going to have a
future with her, Maybe the mum and both sisters go
(34:14):
to therapy together and that gives everyone a chance to
have a mediated type of space and time to express
what's going on. And the therapists are usually pretty pretty
interested in relationships, and so it wouldn't just be about
this guy like, they'd be looking a bit deeper. I
would think. So, if she's really stuck, that's certainly an option,
(34:35):
But I think some honest conversations do need to be
had about why she's reacting so much. She might be
really devastated that mum's moved on, because she might just
her dad. We don't know whether your dad is happy
or not, and maybe maybe you know dad's depressed and
not coping. Maybe she sees it as mum still having
(34:57):
to look after him, which is not the case. But
it's it's yeah, there's just more there. It's not I
try it for for the listener to try and keep
it in perspective that this can't be about him because
she doesn't even know him. But she's not willing to
entertain the thought of him yet. And I wouldn't force it,
like I would be slow in terms of trying to
(35:18):
get on them again. She might not ever really like
him as a person, but that's and that could be awkward.
Of course. Ideally should find it more comfortable to the
idea of her mum being with another man, and that
that's if it's not him, it's going to be somebody else,
So to try and just come to terms with that.
(35:42):
But it may be brought up the reality that their parents'
marriage is really over. And I know that sounds strange
because it's been eight years and she's twenty five, not fi,
but it can still what people's will when parents divorce
it even at older age, and she's maybe just coming
to terms with that. And A is not that long
(36:03):
to come to terms with the reality of things.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
And do you think that if they I mean maybe
they have who knows. If they talk about it and
they're fighting about it, it's going to make it worse, right,
So that's why you're suggesting like that family therapy might
be good or at least have conversations with in a
calm way with around or.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, I think so, And it might be that they
have an auntie or someone like that that can help.
Just listen to everyone, Like she doesn't want to shut
her daughter down, but she doesn't want to be dictated
by her daughter either, I would think so to honor
the daughter's feelings would be to listen to her and
look at how what where the pain is, what's what's
going on? How can she support her through that? What
(36:47):
does she feel comfortable with at this stage? And be
honest and authentic, like I love this guy, I do
want to be with this guy. How can we support
everyone's needs and take it from there? It could be
a slow road, so you have some patience, Mum.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
It's like you've got to honor her feelings but also
live her life.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I've got Yeah, I seen that year's you know, she
hasn't done it five minutes later and they're not. You
know a lot of women do, and that's that's that's
their choices. But it's for whatever reason this this daughter's
having a reaction, a big reaction, big.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Reaction, big feelings. Jackie. Generally, when because as we've said, like,
families have a lot of complicated dynamics. When would you
recommend that people do seek professional help for this kind
of stuff? And is it sometimes just too far gone?
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Look, it can be some people do choose to cease
contact with family, and it's always a really big decision.
Often there in cases where perhaps there's been some abusive
parenting there and people have tried to either live with that,
(37:59):
they've had to live with that for a while, and
they've had to turn up to family events and then
they start to go, I just can't do it anymore.
Perhaps they've had their own children and they don't want to.
And I'm not talking about really sexual abuse, although that
does happen, but just abusiveness in different ways.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
I've seen people in my life who when they have kids,
sometimes it makes them reflect on their own parenting, like
how they were parented.
Speaker 2 (38:24):
Usually doesn't really bad. It can be quite triggered, yes,
and in it like.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
I can't believe my mum said that whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Yeah, often these light bulbs go off like, oh, wow,
I'd never do that with my child. I can't believe
I experienced that. And also seeing children is really interesting
because they're tiny and vulnerable. So often we've had thoughts
about our childhood, but childhood kind of gets lumped in
this I don't know, in a lump. So but when
you see your tiny little two year old or four
year old or whatever, you realize how tiny and gorgeous
(38:55):
and vulnerable little children are and if they were being
hit or I don't know all the things that do happen.
So sometimes you know, I am working through with clients
making that decision, and you know, with any therapy, I'd
never tell them what to do. But sometimes it's my
place to support them in honoring their own needs and
to seize contact whatever that looks like. Sometimes it does
(39:18):
mean still turning up to family events, but they might
not just not have any interaction in between, like weddings
and funerals and all those things are pretty hard to avoid.
Sometimes sometimes it's for a period of time, so some
people might just cut off from their family for a
year or three years or something to recover and heal
and find their boundaries so that they may be able
(39:39):
to be in the be in a space with their
parents or family, but know their own boundaries better and
know how to plan escape not escape roads. That sounds dramatic,
but like to plan to.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
Not find themselves in a really heightened, tricky stance.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
And to feel empowered to go. You can't talk to
me like that, or I won't be talked to like that.
I broke my own rule there put the U in front.
But you know I won't be talking to you like
that anymore. I'm leaving and people can change. They can.
I'm optimistic with that, but some some people, I don't know.
Some people can't. In terms of when to seek family therapy,
(40:19):
I would say, you know, your family are really important.
They're really important key figures in your life. And if
there's a point of clashing or difference that you've tried
to talk about, you don't have to have tried to
talk about. Some people are just really nervous to talk
to their family a strangers that may seem about big things.
And what therapy does is it offers your space, so
it's not necessarily things don't necessarily have to be broken
(40:43):
to come to therapy either. People often have that misconception
in their mind even for individual therapy, like oh, it
must be really really bad if I'm going to go
see a therapist. It's not that at all. Giving you
time out of the world in space with someone with
a professional who's done a lot of work and reading
and research, but also just really got life experiences from
(41:04):
their other clients about how people operate and what might
be triggered and helping people, helping illuminate what might be
happening for the other person. So say that mum suggests therapy,
it's not necessarily therapy for her, it's therapy for the
relationship between her and her daughter, and so the therapist
won't take sides as such. It's more about going this
(41:25):
is what I'm saying going on here, and this is
looking at how to protect that and nurture that relationship
between whether it's two people or whether it's four people
or whatever it might be. I think people, if they're stuck,
give it a go, like, you know, do something different,
change the space, change the outcome, and maybe others in
(41:48):
their family would welcome it because they don't know what
to do either. Some people do react and go no, no,
I'm not going to see when I am so, you know,
and that may stay or they may change their mind.
But I think it's something you can access and people to,
you know, often talk to people about sibling. You know,
getting therapy between siblings things like that can be really
really enlightening and useful, and.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
My god, I can't imagine the things that would come
up and sibling therapy.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
It's fantastic. I actually did it with my sister six
years or something, and we're really close and we've always
been close, and we were close all through therapy as well,
but it was it just got us even deeper and
closer and more amazing just uncovered. You know, it just
gave us some space to air some things that some
really you know, we had a lack of resources in
(42:37):
our family. Beautiful parents, but you know, they had a
lot going on, and so it gave us a chance
to air how it was for us growing up really
and which we had talked about. But it was just
it was just a different space. I think. I think
we're both interested in life and people and diving deep.
So we probably could have done it just me and her,
(42:58):
but we went for six sessions, I think, and we
were so grateful, Like it was just it was really lovely.
So it was a really positive experience to do. It
wasn't scary. Well maybe we're britten over in the beginning,
but it was. It was, and we loved each other deeply,
like that connection was still was always there. It wasn't.
We weren't on the brink of separating or anything like that,
(43:19):
but it just helped us breathe a bit better. I
think it's lovely. Yeah, it was good. That was really good.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Thank you so much, Jackie. That's been exceptionally helpful.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (43:32):
Well, I say it's been helpful. I'm not the listeners,
but I imagine it's been helpful. I've really enjoyed having
those conversations, and I.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
Hope they get something out of it, and you know,
there's there's more that they can explore. I think it's
often just sitting and reflecting and diving deep doesn't hurt.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Well, thank you so much for doing being here with
us today. Obviously we'll put links in our show notes
to where people can find out more about what you
do and where they can look for help themselves. But
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah, my pleasure, Jackie. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
Okay, if you enjoyed that common about non perfect families
and Jackie's smart advice, may I invite you, my mid friends,
to scroll back and listen to one of my very
favorite episodes of Mid with the amazing writer Caroline Baum.
She writes about her mum. I stole the term vinegary
mother from Caroline in the intro. Today she writes about
(44:29):
when her mom moved in with her late in life
and everything kind of went well to shit, let's be honest,
and Caroline talks so beautifully about it. She's written a
memoir about this part of her life. It's a great episode.
If you want to scroll back to season four and
find the interview with Caroline Baum, I think you'll find
it very interesting. The executive producer of this episode of
(44:53):
Mid is Niama Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, and
there's been audio production from Jacob Brown. And if you
have anything you would like to tell us about MID,
a dilemma you would like us to answer, please feel
free to dm me on Instagram or to dm the
Mid by MoMA Mia account, or you can even email
us at help me at mamamea dot com dot au.
(45:14):
Until I hear from you, We'll see you next week. Bye.
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