July 13, 2023 • 37 mins
Sabrina Low started as an environmental consultant prior to attending law school. Now she serves as General Counsel at NOCD, the #1 telehealth provider for the treatment of obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD).
Join Sabrina and host Shiva Mirhosseini as they discuss how digital behavioral health is impacting consumers at scale.
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Episode Transcript
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Shiva (00:09):
Hi. Welcome to Paving the Path. I'm your host, Shiva Mirzakhani.
People know me as a customer experience champion and a
digital executive at Fortune 50 companies. I plan on paving
the path in my show with women game changers, thought
leaders and executives touching the entire spectrum of digital transformation
in healthcare. Join me in exploring the digital renaissance that's
(00:33):
shaping healthcare today and forever changing the future of wellness
care and health. Welcome to another episode of Paving the Path. Today.
My guest is Sabrina Lowe. She is the chief counsel
at A.C.T., a very successful mental health startup, very active
(00:57):
in digital behavioral health, focusing on treating OCD and related
disorders across the whole country. Sabrina began her career as
an environmental consultant before going to law school. After law school,
Sabrina worked as a litigator at Paul Lewis corporate law
firm in New York City, where she worked on a
(01:18):
wide range of criminal regulatory and complex commercial litigation matters
for clients in a range of industries, from media to
health care, energy and real estate. Sabrina also spent a
year clerking for a federal judge in New York City,
where she worked on the full range lifecycle of hundreds
of cases. But eventually, as Sabrina will tell you herself,
(01:41):
she made the less common pivot from litigation to her
current role and then OCD, whereas the general counsel, her
role on the executive team is to help the company
manage legal and regulatory risk while serving as a strategic
partner to the business in expanding its operations across all
(02:03):
the different states and in different ways of serving their customers. Sabrina, welcome.
It's absolutely an honor to have you on the show.
I'm very intrigued by Sid's efforts to enhance the healthcare
experience for consumers, very similar to what Livongo did and
how it impacted lives in diabetes patients. But more specifically,
(02:27):
I'm interested in how you are transforming lives of OCD patients.
So it's a very, very interesting and near and dear
topic to my heart. It's fabulous to have you on
the show. Thanks for joining us.
Sabrina (02:40):
Thanks so much, Shiva. I am delighted to be on
the show. As I've told you, I'm a big fan
and mean. I also love know think the company is
doing amazing work and I'm excited to talk about it.
Shiva (02:53):
Absolutely. Well, before we get to the company, I'm very
curious and I think our audience would appreciate it. Also,
if you could tell us a little bit about yourself
beyond what I shared already, and in particular, maybe something
you can tell us about what gets you excited to
get going, start your day, get you out of the
(03:14):
bed type of thing.
Sabrina (03:15):
Of course. So I am a big runner and I
just generally love getting out of the house first thing
in the morning, whether it's for run, walk, tennis, something
in the great outdoors before I start my day. But
actually at the moment I am about a week and
a half, I think, from having my first baby and
expect that to change and probably something else will be
(03:37):
getting out of me. Me out of bed soon.
Shiva (03:39):
Oh, my goodness. Talk about being kind of overachiever. You're
here with us in your final days stretching. And I
know you're working full time as well. It makes this
particular show even more special. Thank you so much for
making the time going with that narrative of motherhood law,
you know, being a very multifaceted type of working mom.
(04:02):
Could you tell us kind of what brought you to
healthcare from very different background, right? Being in the midst
of working at a large law firm in New York City,
what kind of drove you to health, but in particular
to A.C.T.? And if you can give us the layperson's
explanation of what the company does and your role, that
would be fabulous to.
Sabrina (04:23):
Absolutely. So for me, going back to when I was
a kid, I have always been mission driven, someone who's,
you know, somewhat of an activist, I would say. And,
you know, I think that that ultimately led me to
my position at No seed. So I growing up wanted
(04:43):
to find some profession where I could really do good.
I think, you know, I for you know, better or worse,
didn't see myself as doctor but wanted to help people.
And so actually going to law school was largely driven
by that, wanting to help as either a public servant or,
you know, helping my. Clients, whatever it might be. And
so I went to a law firm, Paul Weiss, that
(05:08):
is well known for its many different, interesting pro bono cases,
has had big victories and lots of areas. And as
you mentioned, I was an environmental consultant, so I've done
done a lot of different work I felt really passionate about.
And I think as I was looking to make a
move from litigation to a company where I could be
(05:28):
more fully part of a team and part of initiatives,
whether it's providing new services or some kind of product.
Health care really drew me in. And you know, I'd
say one other thing for no CDD in particular, I
made this move during the pandemic and I like think
(05:48):
so many others, was experiencing more anxiety than I had
at any other point in my life. And I was
seeing a therapist for the first time and grew and
actually seeing this therapist remote and grew really interested in
this kind of care delivery model. So when the opportunity arose,
I jumped at it.
Shiva (06:08):
That is truly special. And yet, to your point, not
unique in the sense that a lot of us, myself included,
felt that sense of anxiety and kind of the tide
shifting during the pandemic and post pandemic. And so I
appreciate you sharing that personal story. So coming to know
(06:29):
KD and this is a company that is doing superbly
well and really has a specialized and I let you
kind of tell the whole story, but I'm always at
all when very unique, specific health care solution gets so
much traction so quickly. And I think the world of
(06:50):
the executive team and Stefan and, you know, the CEO.
But I want to hear your kind of perspective on
not just what Ncid does, but how it became kind
of what was the it factor that put it on
the map, so to speak?
Sabrina (07:07):
Yeah. So no, KD is unique in a number of ways,
I would say. And and so you alluded to, you know,
Steven and his vision for the company and, and what
he did to get it to where it is. You know,
I think his and Steven talks about this publicly regularly
his own experience with with OCD led him to to
(07:28):
found this company that, you know think very very smartly
uses a community platform where lots of people, you know,
before they even necessarily know what OCD is or that
that's what they're suffering from, are drawn in by by
content that our company posts posts about OCD and about
(07:49):
treatment and find this community platform where lots of other
people are talking about their own experience, their struggle with OCD,
the treatment that they have been able to receive, things
like that. And so there's somewhat of a unique model there.
You know, I'd say another thing that sets no apart
is our clinical our clinical team that is training our therapists,
(08:13):
that is comprised of experts, thought leaders in the space
and very focused on developing this highly effective treatment protocol
and providing or exposure response prevention therapy, which is, I'd
say and I'll talk about this more later, but is
a very effective form of treatment for OCD is seen
to have outcomes in a matter of weeks. And so,
(08:36):
you know, I think that it's it's a combination of
these factors of the way that no CD has has
drawn people in and people have learned about the treatment
in a way that many were unaware before, as well
as the services that we're providing through no CDS platform,
which is remote, which, you know, is also another way
that no CD is able to serve people who before
(08:58):
there was a company like no CD might have lived
hundreds of miles from the nearest specialists and been unable
to get this kind of treatment. So there's so much
that think goes into that secret sauce of what has
made no CD really effective and has seen the kind
of growth that it has in the past few years.
Shiva (09:17):
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. And I
think when it comes to mental health and obsessive compulsive disorder,
which OCD stands for, is not unique. It's not unique
to that is a lot of time people are unaware
of what the symptoms of a particular diagnosis are about.
(09:40):
Like they and I think with OCD, what I've heard
is there were a lot of underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed or
just not diagnosed kind of people going well into their
adulthood with those symptoms, not knowing what to do with it,
completely feeling hopeless. And then. Starting to experience other mental
(10:04):
health issues be anxiety, depression or whatnot. And with mental health,
there's so much comorbidity across these different diagnoses that it
just if you don't diagnose early enough or in a
timely manner, you know, and just or proactive about it,
it can actually lead to more complex situations. Am I
(10:27):
getting that right with respect to kind of the value
that no city brings to the table?
Sabrina (10:31):
Yes. And you know, I'm just wondering what I might
even add, because you know so much about it. But
that's that's absolutely true. It's you know, I'd say it's
a mis misunderstood term. And so a lot of people
suffering don't know what they're suffering from. You know, a
lot of people think that OCD is just perfectionism, is
(10:53):
just reorganizing something on your desk or, you know, washing
your hands a few extra times. And it's not it's
a very serious condition. People can spend hours doing the
compulsions that they do in order to try to quell
the the fear they're experiencing or, you know, make the
(11:13):
obsession subside. And so a lot of people, you know,
for for the reasons you said that, you know, they
think that some comorbidity like depression or anxiety is actually
primarily what they're experiencing because they can experience that along
with OCD. But really, you know, the underlying cause of
their suffering might be OCD and might not be one
(11:35):
that they're aware of. You know, it can also it
can be something that because a lot of so there
are a number of different subtypes of OCD and what
people might be experiencing as their obsession or fear could
be something that that is deeply stigmatized and that they
are afraid to tell anyone they're experiencing. So as a
(11:57):
couple of examples, you know, there's harm OCD. So, you know,
a mother might fear that she's going to hurt her
child and really she is not going to hurt her
child at all. But that fear is so strong that
she can't stop thinking about it and does some compulsion
as a result. And this kind of cycle can get
(12:17):
worse and worse, especially for people who get the wrong
kind of treatment. And so people might see a therapist
who tries to teach them to put a thought on
a leaf and let it float down the river. And,
you know, the kinds of techniques that you might learn
in other forms of therapy were really what no does.
ERP therapy is quite the opposite and it teaches people
(12:40):
to sit with to sit with this obsession, this fear
and not do the compulsion and be able to last
longer and longer without doing it. And, you know, at
a point it then becomes the the underlying obsession or
fear dissipates and you're able to go, you know, it
becomes something that doesn't doesn't impede on your life the
(13:02):
way it used to. So it's actually it seemed to
be a very effective form of treatment for for that reason.
Shiva (13:07):
That's just amazing. And just to reflect back what I heard,
that increasing awareness is a key factor in really galvanizing
this community of people that comes together. And it's very
community oriented, right? Like knowing that you're not alone and
having all these voices kind of crowd generated type of
(13:29):
intelligence around it seems to have been very, very effective.
But also to add to that is that it's evidence based.
It brings about the best available evidence based toolkits and
therapies at the convenience of your own home and your
privacy without the stigma of, you know, being attached to
(13:51):
or having had to go to a particular whatever unit
or location or whatever it might be. And that convenience
also plays a great factor. And I remember if I
correct me if I'm wrong, but also from a financial perspective,
like insurance companies now accept kind of this kind of
support and therapy. And so no, CDD is supported by
(14:14):
a number of large payers as well. And so you
kind of you guys have kind of checked all the boxes,
which is fabulous.
Sabrina (14:21):
Yes. Yeah. I mean, that is all true. And I'd
say there's the convenience there. Some of our therapists even
talk about the benefits to doing ERP out of the
therapist's office where you can be in the setting where
you are experiencing the triggers. So there, you know, there
can even be ways that that you are able to
treat the condition that you wouldn't be able to otherwise
(14:43):
if if we didn't have this setup. And certainly I'd say,
you know, the the accessibility in that way and the
affordability because we have such extensive payer coverage or, you know,
in health plan coverage makes it that people who, you know,
might not be able to otherwise get this kind of
treatment now have access.
Shiva (15:01):
I absolutely advise and I have been to your website
and I'm always curious anyway. I think that awareness and
education is in itself incredibly helpful, even if it's not
for yourself, if you're a mom, for your loved ones,
it's just to be aware and know it's super helpful. Now,
I'm curious, just, you know, let's talk about you a
(15:24):
little bit, your role, health care and digital health and
this new generation of how tech companies have come to
essentially to the limelight in a very different environment in
that well, on one hand, technology is enabling, bringing certain
solutions and products to market at record time. But also
(15:46):
we are still, you know, have to deal with policies,
decade old policies and regulations and and whatnot. So I
can absolutely imagine why a role like yours as a
general counsel is so pivotal to the executive team to serve. And,
I mean, your name was the first name that came
(16:07):
to his mind. And I was thinking about when I
was asking him about, you know, who to talk to
with respect to kind of bringing awareness and have on
my podcast for our audience. So what are you seeing?
What makes this kind of role and yours in particular,
a strategic role for startups? Yeah.
Sabrina (16:27):
So and you know, I'd say I'm flattered to hear
that my name was one of the first, but I think,
you know, that speaks to for know and hopefully, you know,
I would think for most other health care companies and
companies in this space in particular, the regulatory environment is
complex and there is a lot a lot to consider
and a lot to be careful of. We, you know,
(16:48):
it's I'd say legal and health care or clinicians line
up very closely on this where we want to do
right by the people that we're serving. We also want
to do right by the law and stay within the bounds.
And so I'd say one area in particular where there's
been increasing attention in the past year years is privacy,
(17:10):
for example. So as a company that treats serious mental
illness and one where people are sharing their deepest, darkest
secrets with their therapist, for example, it's very important for
us to make sure that their data, you know, is
is secure, is protected, is not shared with people who
shouldn't be able to access it. That is important because
(17:32):
it you know, because we care about the people we're serving.
But it's also very important legally. And there, you know,
a number of different regulatory regimes that have various requirements
that we have to comply with. To that end, I'd
say there's marketing related regulations. There's, you know, as we
work in all 50 states, there are multiple laws in
(17:55):
all of these areas. There are laws on, you know,
remote practice. There's lots to be thinking about. And I
would say that as the head of the legal department,
as general counsel, my my role is is to help
us manage that risk and to help us make sure
that we're complying with these various regulations. It's also to
help the team think about, you know, stay abreast of
(18:16):
what changes are happening and think about ways that we
can structure our operations, you know, how we're using our technology,
what new solutions we're developing while helping the members we
serve the best we can and keeping, you know, these
various regulations in mind.
Shiva (18:32):
Wow. There is plenty to do for sure. So, again,
thinking about the the new generation, if I would put
it that way, of digital health revolution that we are
seeing in healthcare. The word consumerism or consumerization of healthcare
(18:52):
comes to mind. And there are many direct to consumer
companies out there or, you know, B2B to see if
you would, by and large, even if they're selling to businesses,
be employers or payers, you still have to educate them
on board and and really ultimately engage the end user,
(19:13):
the patient, the consumer. So when we think about consumers,
the reality is that we and I put myself in
those in that category. We don't necessarily understand and appreciate
the complexity of the healthcare system and nor should we.
You know, it's not our job to think about the
(19:33):
spaghetti web that health care ecosystem is all about. With
that said, though, we still want better experience, and that's
one of the hurdles of achieving better health in the
United States. How is the team at CD helping design
a better experience?
Sabrina (19:51):
So in many ways, you know, and I think we've
talked about some of them, some being the the remote
accessibility and the way that that can make it just.
Anything you can fit into your day that you couldn't otherwise,
or you could get in with a specialist much sooner
than you would have been able to otherwise. There might
have been months long waits. You know, I think it
(20:12):
depends on where you are and and who's available to you.
You know, I'd say there are also technological solutions that
we have. So no, in addition to, you know, supporting
therapy services and having this community has self-help tools that
are members, we call them, or the consumers are able
to use between sessions. And this is incredibly important. So
(20:34):
people are able to to do homework, you know, to
do the kinds of exercises that they, you know, practice
in session with their therapists between sessions. And that's really
important to being able to make progress and see the
kind of rapid decrease in symptoms and strong outcomes that
we do see. So there's you know, there's that there's
(20:54):
the community page that I talked about there. You know,
I'd say our our team is always looking for ways
to improve our and actually, you know, to support our
therapists better. And I would say that that's, you know,
that's a piece kind of when you're talking about that
spaghetti of like what you don't see behind the scenes
is actually something that makes it that your therapist can
(21:16):
do a much better job when they have an easier
time using the tools that we provide to them and
being able to really focus on clinical work first and foremost.
Lots of different ways that no CD is, I'd say,
both outward facing and internally working on our processes, on
our partnerships, where, you know, we are able to increase,
(21:41):
as we've been discussing educational efforts about know or work
with partners who make our, you know, our services function
better for members. All you know, all of that I'd
say is, is part of what no CD is always
working on in order to provide the best consumer experience.
Shiva (21:58):
Absolutely. That's a full plate for sure. Now, I don't
want to make this next one a leading question, but
when it comes to telehealth, we saw the pinnacle of
virtual health reach right around post pandemic. But it has
come to it has normalized to some extent. What kind
(22:18):
of progress do you think we can realistically expect in
healthcare industry, we virtual health or otherwise in the next
1 or 2 years?
Sabrina (22:27):
So in terms of, you know, what progress do I
expect in the next 1 to 2 years, I'd say
first and thinking about my own company and increased in
focused and specialized treatment in the behavioral health space, for example,
we've seen this come such a long way and it's
continuing to evolve. So first, you know, in the pandemic,
people actually began to think about receiving this treatment. And
(22:50):
I'd say just looking back 2021, Google's year in search
showed mental health was a key theme. Employers have increased
mental health benefits, and school districts are now experimenting with
measures to address mental health. And the crisis that we're
seeing right now among kids and teens, we see this
in all areas. And I think that that's going to
be true of health care as well. So there will
(23:12):
be this continued focus here. And as there is a
continued focus on behavioral health, getting into more specialization, where
you can actually treat the the underlying condition better is
going to continue to increase. So people you know, I'd
say we're familiar with depression and anxiety. The familiarity with
(23:32):
other conditions has only increased in recent years. And, you know,
as we've been talking about, companies like OCD are focused
on these educational campaigns. So we have a no OCD
campaign where we partner with the comedian Howie Mandel, and he's,
you know, helping increase awareness of this condition. So I
(23:53):
think the more companies are focused on it, the more
they're doing to educate consumers, the more consumers are independently
focused on it. As you know, sadly, we're seeing still
a continued mental health crisis. We will see more focus
on how to treat the various conditions, not just mental
health broadly. And if you think about it, you know,
(24:13):
physical health, right? You don't go to your primary care
doctor for all things to be treated. You know, there
are specialists for a reason and they're able to give
you the right kind of treatment. Same thing in mental health.
That's one of the big areas of progress that I'm
expecting to see. You'll also see with that kind of
specialization improvements in personalized care. So no, you know, just
(24:36):
to take my own experience, you know, we we are
able to use some of the data that we have
and some understanding of patient's behaviors and of how they're
responding to our treatment. And based on that, we're able
to make all of these improvements to the care that
we provide for this kind of condition and for the
people that come to know seeking treatment for it. Another
(24:58):
area I'd say is. Foster care and just the speed
of access to care. I think we're going to continue
to see progress there. We right now already can just
hop on our phones any time of day if we're
looking to see someone for, let's say, wake up on
a weekend with some kind of eye infection and I
(25:19):
would like to see my primary care doctor but wouldn't
be able to get an ordinarily, I've in the past
been able to just log on to my phone and
you know, within 15 minutes you see someone. I'd say
increasing use of AI is another really interesting area currently.
And I think we're going to see that, you know,
in part recent, you know, recently there's been a lot
of focus on ChatGPT and how different new forms of
(25:43):
AI are improving health care. There was a study on
how the what was it ChatGPT outperformed doctors on empathy scores.
While I'm not sure that that's going to be the
primary way that we see improvements, there are also improvements
in automating tasks like scheduling, and when helping identify information
(26:04):
in that can help inform clinical decision making. So I
think there's so much potential there and we're just seeing
the beginning of it.
Shiva (26:12):
Wow, that's a full list. And I think I want
to stay on that last bit piece because I've heard
this from Stefan and others in the health care as well.
There is because of the regulatory and this is not
your area, because of the regulatory requirements, clinicians have to
do a lot more work than just caring and serving
(26:34):
and spending time with the patients. And a lot of
people are very optimistic about the opportunities of leveraging AI
to automate a whole lot of back office or even
prep work or clinical decision support for clinicians, including therapists.
So that's an area that a lot of people, including myself,
(26:56):
are very, very excited about. Thanks so much for for
sharing that. I'm really glad to hear that from you
as well.
Sabrina (27:03):
I was just going to agree and, you know, think that,
you know, in terms of automating these back office functions,
the more that you can free up clinician time to
focus on the work we want them to be focused
on the better, the happier clinicians are going to be,
more they can focus on, you know, the most pressing issues.
And it's, you know, it's a huge, huge area for
our area of opportunity for the company.
Shiva (27:24):
Absolutely. Kudos to that. Absolutely. With that in mind and
with AI, with technology, healthcare and even on the policy side,
things are shifting and moving a lot faster than we
have ever imagined in this sector compared to any time
in the past. Where is now headed in the next
(27:46):
6 to 12 months, considering the pace of change?
Sabrina (27:49):
It's a great question and things are always changing. You know,
I'd say that one big thing at a high level
is that no CD is focused on our educational efforts
to increase awareness of OCD and our treatment offerings. No
CD really sees that this can be not just life changing,
but life saving treatment. You know, sadly, in this population,
(28:11):
rates of suicide can be believe it's 1 in 10
times higher than in most of the population. And and
the ability to educate people on this condition and to
reach more people who would not even know to look
for this kind of treatment I think is is the
biggest area where we're going to see, see change and
(28:32):
see no CD. You know, really, I think probably be
able to help more people. Wow.
Shiva (28:38):
I did not know that. That's very much that's alarming.
But at the same time, a huge opportunity. Right, for
all of us, including no CD. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, well,
given all that kind of convergence of trends from consumer behavior,
technology policy and whatnot that we discussed, I'm curious, as
(29:03):
a thought leader, what other trends are you paying attention
to right now, especially as a partner and as a
strategic advisor to the executive team?
Sabrina (29:14):
So this issue of health equity is something that was
brought into focus during the pandemic. It's been been an
issue for a long time, but it was something that,
as the pandemic hit, hit marginalized and underserved communities particularly hard.
I think, you know, people have have understood that it's
so important to provide services that will will benefit those groups.
(29:36):
You know, health plans are increasing requirements to train providers
and cultural competence. More companies actually have been created to
offer trainings to this end. And at the same time,
providers are increasingly focused on this as they're seeking to
reach and better serve new patient populations.
Shiva (29:53):
Well, I want to just take a minute for our
audience to reflect on a couple of points that you
brought up around value based care. Which I know from CMS,
you know, government agencies, everyone pays a ton of attention to.
For no other reason than you want to do what
is valuable for the patient, but also the whole ecosystem
(30:15):
from a cost perspective. It's very encouraging to see companies
like No CD really putting that as a center stage
of how they bring solutions and care to market, because
it's one thing to do the right thing, but for
the right thing to have a long standing presence in
(30:37):
the marketplace, it should be also economically viable. And I
love how we know that ROI is so evident in what,
you know, these use cases are bringing to the payers.
And the plans, which I can imagine is part of
the reason why you guys have been able to have
(30:59):
a have a little bit of an easier time essentially
partnering and selling into the payer ecosystem, which, you know,
they're bombarded by a lot of pitches and ideas and companies.
But to see no CD kind of be a center
stage and offer real economic value in terms of reducing
costs from a per member per month basis save lives,
(31:22):
change lives. Like doing like again, checking all the boxes
is very, very inspiring.
Sabrina (31:29):
Yep, we've talked about this, but the outcomes that no
CDC is, is is really what you can attribute that to.
We see that we're able to start working with people who,
you know, are outpatient and help them manage, manage their symptoms,
get to a place where you know, where they can
really continue to function and see such improvement. Whereas if
(31:51):
someone gets to the point where where it goes to
hours a day or, you know, even worse than that
and they have to be in intensive outpatient care or,
you know, residential treatment or, you know, like a higher
level of care, you see such higher expense that the
payers are then going to be saddled with. And so the,
you know, the no model of being able to provide
(32:12):
this service at a point where we can help people
be able to function normally and not have these ballooning
health care costs as they're in one of those other
types of treatment programs is something that that is a
huge selling point to payers and, you know.
Shiva (32:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that early detection or early diagnosis, it's
so key in offering and accelerating and putting people on
a path for better health, but also avoiding those large
out of pocket costs, but both for the patient, but
(32:50):
also to the health care ecosystem. That's all very, very powerful.
I feel like we can talk for hours. I just
want to make sure we are not leaving anything on
the table, especially because I'm talking to an activist, you know?
And so going back to those roots, going back to
(33:10):
the start of the conversation, what drove you to practice
law and and then come to health care as a
general counsel to a very mission driven company, like no
CD Is there any other kind of overarching trends or
factors that's driving your thoughts with respect to health and
future of health care?
Sabrina (33:31):
Yeah, I mean, I guess like one last one I
think would be just going back to my environmental roots,
seeing an increasing awareness of the impact of environmental pollution
and other environmental impact on health. And I know you
you just did another episode on on this, actually, and
I see it as so encouraging that people are beginning
(33:53):
to focus on this and the impact that living near
a diesel polluted highway or another industrial complex can impact
people who, you know, are neighborhoods where unfortunately that level
of exposure is so high that their increased rates of
asthma and mortality. And so I think, you know, for me,
(34:13):
that's one area personally that I care deeply about. And
I'm very happy to see that trend of awareness and
hopefully more initiatives to address it increasing.
Shiva (34:22):
Absolutely. No, I'm so happy that you brought that up
because at the end of the day, our physical health
is very connected to our mental health, and our mental
health is very connected to our physical health. We are one.
And this you know, we are one unit, one entity.
And that whole practice of wholeness, health or functional health
(34:42):
or functional care is very, very important. And I'm just
so inspired by all the work that no CD or
self and the team is doing to bringing that insight
and education forefront to people that might not otherwise think
they have anything to do with. You know, OCD, but
being aware of it and understanding potentially their symptoms and
(35:07):
being able to connect the dots, even if you're not
a patient or someone who is currently diagnosed with OCD
is very, very important. But it's just sort of the
way I feel like. Sabrina Right. It's an ever expanding
area of research, development and learning for all of us,
(35:29):
but very inspired to have people like you at the
forefront of it. I saw admire what you are doing
and your profession. Congratulations and becoming a mom and paving
the path for all of us really in health care,
mental health and being multifaceted human beings and working moms.
(35:52):
It's just fabulous. I bet that our people want to
get connected with you and your final thoughts and how
we might connect with you via social media or otherwise.
Sabrina (36:03):
Thanks, Shiva. Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me
at Sabrina Lowe. And yeah, I'm I'm so excited to
be able to talk about this. I think that this
work that no CD is doing is amazing. I hear
from people that we've helped treat all the time and
from others coming to us and saying, you know what,
what a serious condition OCD is and how important the
(36:23):
work the company is doing is. And I appreciated the
chance to talk about it and and yeah just you know,
I think all of what you're illuminating is is so
important in this space. So thank you.
Shiva (36:35):
Thank you so much. And with that, I want to
thank all of you guys joining us for this fabulous conversation.
And I hope that you have a fabulous rest of
your day. Until next time.
Jared (36:49):
Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you heard,
please spread the word. Tell your colleagues to tune in
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Spotify or wherever you listen. This show is produced by
Shift Forward Health The channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to
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(37:11):
podcasts you need and it's all for free. And remember,
we might have a lot of work to do in
health care, but we'll get there faster together. Thanks again.
Hi. Welcome to Paving the Path. I'm your host, Shiva Mirzakhani.
People know me as a customer experience champion and a
digital executive at Fortune 50 companies. I plan on paving
the path in my show with women game changers, thought
leaders and executives touching the entire spectrum of digital transformation
in healthcare. Join me in exploring the digital renaissance that's
(00:33):
shaping healthcare today and forever changing the future of wellness
care and health. Welcome to another episode of Paving the Path. Today.
My guest is Sabrina Lowe. She is the chief counsel
at A.C.T., a very successful mental health startup, very active
(00:57):
in digital behavioral health, focusing on treating OCD and related
disorders across the whole country. Sabrina began her career as
an environmental consultant before going to law school. After law school,
Sabrina worked as a litigator at Paul Lewis corporate law
firm in New York City, where she worked on a
(01:18):
wide range of criminal regulatory and complex commercial litigation matters
for clients in a range of industries, from media to
health care, energy and real estate. Sabrina also spent a
year clerking for a federal judge in New York City,
where she worked on the full range lifecycle of hundreds
of cases. But eventually, as Sabrina will tell you herself,
(01:41):
she made the less common pivot from litigation to her
current role and then OCD, whereas the general counsel, her
role on the executive team is to help the company
manage legal and regulatory risk while serving as a strategic
partner to the business in expanding its operations across all
(02:03):
the different states and in different ways of serving their customers. Sabrina, welcome.
It's absolutely an honor to have you on the show.
I'm very intrigued by Sid's efforts to enhance the healthcare
experience for consumers, very similar to what Livongo did and
how it impacted lives in diabetes patients. But more specifically,
(02:27):
I'm interested in how you are transforming lives of OCD patients.
So it's a very, very interesting and near and dear
topic to my heart. It's fabulous to have you on
the show. Thanks for joining us.
Sabrina (02:40):
Thanks so much, Shiva. I am delighted to be on
the show. As I've told you, I'm a big fan
and mean. I also love know think the company is
doing amazing work and I'm excited to talk about it.
Shiva (02:53):
Absolutely. Well, before we get to the company, I'm very
curious and I think our audience would appreciate it. Also,
if you could tell us a little bit about yourself
beyond what I shared already, and in particular, maybe something
you can tell us about what gets you excited to
get going, start your day, get you out of the
(03:14):
bed type of thing.
Sabrina (03:15):
Of course. So I am a big runner and I
just generally love getting out of the house first thing
in the morning, whether it's for run, walk, tennis, something
in the great outdoors before I start my day. But
actually at the moment I am about a week and
a half, I think, from having my first baby and
expect that to change and probably something else will be
(03:37):
getting out of me. Me out of bed soon.
Shiva (03:39):
Oh, my goodness. Talk about being kind of overachiever. You're
here with us in your final days stretching. And I
know you're working full time as well. It makes this
particular show even more special. Thank you so much for
making the time going with that narrative of motherhood law,
you know, being a very multifaceted type of working mom.
(04:02):
Could you tell us kind of what brought you to
healthcare from very different background, right? Being in the midst
of working at a large law firm in New York City,
what kind of drove you to health, but in particular
to A.C.T.? And if you can give us the layperson's
explanation of what the company does and your role, that
would be fabulous to.
Sabrina (04:23):
Absolutely. So for me, going back to when I was
a kid, I have always been mission driven, someone who's,
you know, somewhat of an activist, I would say. And,
you know, I think that that ultimately led me to
my position at No seed. So I growing up wanted
(04:43):
to find some profession where I could really do good.
I think, you know, I for you know, better or worse,
didn't see myself as doctor but wanted to help people.
And so actually going to law school was largely driven
by that, wanting to help as either a public servant or,
you know, helping my. Clients, whatever it might be. And
so I went to a law firm, Paul Weiss, that
(05:08):
is well known for its many different, interesting pro bono cases,
has had big victories and lots of areas. And as
you mentioned, I was an environmental consultant, so I've done
done a lot of different work I felt really passionate about.
And I think as I was looking to make a
move from litigation to a company where I could be
(05:28):
more fully part of a team and part of initiatives,
whether it's providing new services or some kind of product.
Health care really drew me in. And you know, I'd
say one other thing for no CDD in particular, I
made this move during the pandemic and I like think
(05:48):
so many others, was experiencing more anxiety than I had
at any other point in my life. And I was
seeing a therapist for the first time and grew and
actually seeing this therapist remote and grew really interested in
this kind of care delivery model. So when the opportunity arose,
I jumped at it.
Shiva (06:08):
That is truly special. And yet, to your point, not
unique in the sense that a lot of us, myself included,
felt that sense of anxiety and kind of the tide
shifting during the pandemic and post pandemic. And so I
appreciate you sharing that personal story. So coming to know
(06:29):
KD and this is a company that is doing superbly
well and really has a specialized and I let you
kind of tell the whole story, but I'm always at
all when very unique, specific health care solution gets so
much traction so quickly. And I think the world of
(06:50):
the executive team and Stefan and, you know, the CEO.
But I want to hear your kind of perspective on
not just what Ncid does, but how it became kind
of what was the it factor that put it on
the map, so to speak?
Sabrina (07:07):
Yeah. So no, KD is unique in a number of ways,
I would say. And and so you alluded to, you know,
Steven and his vision for the company and, and what
he did to get it to where it is. You know,
I think his and Steven talks about this publicly regularly
his own experience with with OCD led him to to
(07:28):
found this company that, you know think very very smartly
uses a community platform where lots of people, you know,
before they even necessarily know what OCD is or that
that's what they're suffering from, are drawn in by by
content that our company posts posts about OCD and about
(07:49):
treatment and find this community platform where lots of other
people are talking about their own experience, their struggle with OCD,
the treatment that they have been able to receive, things
like that. And so there's somewhat of a unique model there.
You know, I'd say another thing that sets no apart
is our clinical our clinical team that is training our therapists,
(08:13):
that is comprised of experts, thought leaders in the space
and very focused on developing this highly effective treatment protocol
and providing or exposure response prevention therapy, which is, I'd
say and I'll talk about this more later, but is
a very effective form of treatment for OCD is seen
to have outcomes in a matter of weeks. And so,
(08:36):
you know, I think that it's it's a combination of
these factors of the way that no CD has has
drawn people in and people have learned about the treatment
in a way that many were unaware before, as well
as the services that we're providing through no CDS platform,
which is remote, which, you know, is also another way
that no CD is able to serve people who before
(08:58):
there was a company like no CD might have lived
hundreds of miles from the nearest specialists and been unable
to get this kind of treatment. So there's so much
that think goes into that secret sauce of what has
made no CD really effective and has seen the kind
of growth that it has in the past few years.
Shiva (09:17):
Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense. And I
think when it comes to mental health and obsessive compulsive disorder,
which OCD stands for, is not unique. It's not unique
to that is a lot of time people are unaware
of what the symptoms of a particular diagnosis are about.
(09:40):
Like they and I think with OCD, what I've heard
is there were a lot of underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed or
just not diagnosed kind of people going well into their
adulthood with those symptoms, not knowing what to do with it,
completely feeling hopeless. And then. Starting to experience other mental
(10:04):
health issues be anxiety, depression or whatnot. And with mental health,
there's so much comorbidity across these different diagnoses that it
just if you don't diagnose early enough or in a
timely manner, you know, and just or proactive about it,
it can actually lead to more complex situations. Am I
(10:27):
getting that right with respect to kind of the value
that no city brings to the table?
Sabrina (10:31):
Yes. And you know, I'm just wondering what I might
even add, because you know so much about it. But
that's that's absolutely true. It's you know, I'd say it's
a mis misunderstood term. And so a lot of people
suffering don't know what they're suffering from. You know, a
lot of people think that OCD is just perfectionism, is
(10:53):
just reorganizing something on your desk or, you know, washing
your hands a few extra times. And it's not it's
a very serious condition. People can spend hours doing the
compulsions that they do in order to try to quell
the the fear they're experiencing or, you know, make the
(11:13):
obsession subside. And so a lot of people, you know,
for for the reasons you said that, you know, they
think that some comorbidity like depression or anxiety is actually
primarily what they're experiencing because they can experience that along
with OCD. But really, you know, the underlying cause of
their suffering might be OCD and might not be one
(11:35):
that they're aware of. You know, it can also it
can be something that because a lot of so there
are a number of different subtypes of OCD and what
people might be experiencing as their obsession or fear could
be something that that is deeply stigmatized and that they
are afraid to tell anyone they're experiencing. So as a
(11:57):
couple of examples, you know, there's harm OCD. So, you know,
a mother might fear that she's going to hurt her
child and really she is not going to hurt her
child at all. But that fear is so strong that
she can't stop thinking about it and does some compulsion
as a result. And this kind of cycle can get
(12:17):
worse and worse, especially for people who get the wrong
kind of treatment. And so people might see a therapist
who tries to teach them to put a thought on
a leaf and let it float down the river. And,
you know, the kinds of techniques that you might learn
in other forms of therapy were really what no does.
ERP therapy is quite the opposite and it teaches people
(12:40):
to sit with to sit with this obsession, this fear
and not do the compulsion and be able to last
longer and longer without doing it. And, you know, at
a point it then becomes the the underlying obsession or
fear dissipates and you're able to go, you know, it
becomes something that doesn't doesn't impede on your life the
(13:02):
way it used to. So it's actually it seemed to
be a very effective form of treatment for for that reason.
Shiva (13:07):
That's just amazing. And just to reflect back what I heard,
that increasing awareness is a key factor in really galvanizing
this community of people that comes together. And it's very
community oriented, right? Like knowing that you're not alone and
having all these voices kind of crowd generated type of
(13:29):
intelligence around it seems to have been very, very effective.
But also to add to that is that it's evidence based.
It brings about the best available evidence based toolkits and
therapies at the convenience of your own home and your
privacy without the stigma of, you know, being attached to
(13:51):
or having had to go to a particular whatever unit
or location or whatever it might be. And that convenience
also plays a great factor. And I remember if I
correct me if I'm wrong, but also from a financial perspective,
like insurance companies now accept kind of this kind of
support and therapy. And so no, CDD is supported by
(14:14):
a number of large payers as well. And so you
kind of you guys have kind of checked all the boxes,
which is fabulous.
Sabrina (14:21):
Yes. Yeah. I mean, that is all true. And I'd
say there's the convenience there. Some of our therapists even
talk about the benefits to doing ERP out of the
therapist's office where you can be in the setting where
you are experiencing the triggers. So there, you know, there
can even be ways that that you are able to
treat the condition that you wouldn't be able to otherwise
(14:43):
if if we didn't have this setup. And certainly I'd say,
you know, the the accessibility in that way and the
affordability because we have such extensive payer coverage or, you know,
in health plan coverage makes it that people who, you know,
might not be able to otherwise get this kind of
treatment now have access.
Shiva (15:01):
I absolutely advise and I have been to your website
and I'm always curious anyway. I think that awareness and
education is in itself incredibly helpful, even if it's not
for yourself, if you're a mom, for your loved ones,
it's just to be aware and know it's super helpful. Now,
I'm curious, just, you know, let's talk about you a
(15:24):
little bit, your role, health care and digital health and
this new generation of how tech companies have come to
essentially to the limelight in a very different environment in
that well, on one hand, technology is enabling, bringing certain
solutions and products to market at record time. But also
(15:46):
we are still, you know, have to deal with policies,
decade old policies and regulations and and whatnot. So I
can absolutely imagine why a role like yours as a
general counsel is so pivotal to the executive team to serve. And,
I mean, your name was the first name that came
(16:07):
to his mind. And I was thinking about when I
was asking him about, you know, who to talk to
with respect to kind of bringing awareness and have on
my podcast for our audience. So what are you seeing?
What makes this kind of role and yours in particular,
a strategic role for startups? Yeah.
Sabrina (16:27):
So and you know, I'd say I'm flattered to hear
that my name was one of the first, but I think,
you know, that speaks to for know and hopefully, you know,
I would think for most other health care companies and
companies in this space in particular, the regulatory environment is
complex and there is a lot a lot to consider
and a lot to be careful of. We, you know,
(16:48):
it's I'd say legal and health care or clinicians line
up very closely on this where we want to do
right by the people that we're serving. We also want
to do right by the law and stay within the bounds.
And so I'd say one area in particular where there's
been increasing attention in the past year years is privacy,
(17:10):
for example. So as a company that treats serious mental
illness and one where people are sharing their deepest, darkest
secrets with their therapist, for example, it's very important for
us to make sure that their data, you know, is
is secure, is protected, is not shared with people who
shouldn't be able to access it. That is important because
(17:32):
it you know, because we care about the people we're serving.
But it's also very important legally. And there, you know,
a number of different regulatory regimes that have various requirements
that we have to comply with. To that end, I'd
say there's marketing related regulations. There's, you know, as we
work in all 50 states, there are multiple laws in
(17:55):
all of these areas. There are laws on, you know,
remote practice. There's lots to be thinking about. And I
would say that as the head of the legal department,
as general counsel, my my role is is to help
us manage that risk and to help us make sure
that we're complying with these various regulations. It's also to
help the team think about, you know, stay abreast of
(18:16):
what changes are happening and think about ways that we
can structure our operations, you know, how we're using our technology,
what new solutions we're developing while helping the members we
serve the best we can and keeping, you know, these
various regulations in mind.
Shiva (18:32):
Wow. There is plenty to do for sure. So, again,
thinking about the the new generation, if I would put
it that way, of digital health revolution that we are
seeing in healthcare. The word consumerism or consumerization of healthcare
(18:52):
comes to mind. And there are many direct to consumer
companies out there or, you know, B2B to see if
you would, by and large, even if they're selling to businesses,
be employers or payers, you still have to educate them
on board and and really ultimately engage the end user,
(19:13):
the patient, the consumer. So when we think about consumers,
the reality is that we and I put myself in
those in that category. We don't necessarily understand and appreciate
the complexity of the healthcare system and nor should we.
You know, it's not our job to think about the
(19:33):
spaghetti web that health care ecosystem is all about. With
that said, though, we still want better experience, and that's
one of the hurdles of achieving better health in the
United States. How is the team at CD helping design
a better experience?
Sabrina (19:51):
So in many ways, you know, and I think we've
talked about some of them, some being the the remote
accessibility and the way that that can make it just.
Anything you can fit into your day that you couldn't otherwise,
or you could get in with a specialist much sooner
than you would have been able to otherwise. There might
have been months long waits. You know, I think it
(20:12):
depends on where you are and and who's available to you.
You know, I'd say there are also technological solutions that
we have. So no, in addition to, you know, supporting
therapy services and having this community has self-help tools that
are members, we call them, or the consumers are able
to use between sessions. And this is incredibly important. So
(20:34):
people are able to to do homework, you know, to
do the kinds of exercises that they, you know, practice
in session with their therapists between sessions. And that's really
important to being able to make progress and see the
kind of rapid decrease in symptoms and strong outcomes that
we do see. So there's you know, there's that there's
(20:54):
the community page that I talked about there. You know,
I'd say our our team is always looking for ways
to improve our and actually, you know, to support our
therapists better. And I would say that that's, you know,
that's a piece kind of when you're talking about that
spaghetti of like what you don't see behind the scenes
is actually something that makes it that your therapist can
(21:16):
do a much better job when they have an easier
time using the tools that we provide to them and
being able to really focus on clinical work first and foremost.
Lots of different ways that no CD is, I'd say,
both outward facing and internally working on our processes, on
our partnerships, where, you know, we are able to increase,
(21:41):
as we've been discussing educational efforts about know or work
with partners who make our, you know, our services function
better for members. All you know, all of that I'd
say is, is part of what no CD is always
working on in order to provide the best consumer experience.
Shiva (21:58):
Absolutely. That's a full plate for sure. Now, I don't
want to make this next one a leading question, but
when it comes to telehealth, we saw the pinnacle of
virtual health reach right around post pandemic. But it has
come to it has normalized to some extent. What kind
(22:18):
of progress do you think we can realistically expect in
healthcare industry, we virtual health or otherwise in the next
1 or 2 years?
Sabrina (22:27):
So in terms of, you know, what progress do I
expect in the next 1 to 2 years, I'd say
first and thinking about my own company and increased in
focused and specialized treatment in the behavioral health space, for example,
we've seen this come such a long way and it's
continuing to evolve. So first, you know, in the pandemic,
people actually began to think about receiving this treatment. And
(22:50):
I'd say just looking back 2021, Google's year in search
showed mental health was a key theme. Employers have increased
mental health benefits, and school districts are now experimenting with
measures to address mental health. And the crisis that we're
seeing right now among kids and teens, we see this
in all areas. And I think that that's going to
be true of health care as well. So there will
(23:12):
be this continued focus here. And as there is a
continued focus on behavioral health, getting into more specialization, where
you can actually treat the the underlying condition better is
going to continue to increase. So people you know, I'd
say we're familiar with depression and anxiety. The familiarity with
(23:32):
other conditions has only increased in recent years. And, you know,
as we've been talking about, companies like OCD are focused
on these educational campaigns. So we have a no OCD
campaign where we partner with the comedian Howie Mandel, and he's,
you know, helping increase awareness of this condition. So I
(23:53):
think the more companies are focused on it, the more
they're doing to educate consumers, the more consumers are independently
focused on it. As you know, sadly, we're seeing still
a continued mental health crisis. We will see more focus
on how to treat the various conditions, not just mental
health broadly. And if you think about it, you know,
(24:13):
physical health, right? You don't go to your primary care
doctor for all things to be treated. You know, there
are specialists for a reason and they're able to give
you the right kind of treatment. Same thing in mental health.
That's one of the big areas of progress that I'm
expecting to see. You'll also see with that kind of
specialization improvements in personalized care. So no, you know, just
(24:36):
to take my own experience, you know, we we are
able to use some of the data that we have
and some understanding of patient's behaviors and of how they're
responding to our treatment. And based on that, we're able
to make all of these improvements to the care that
we provide for this kind of condition and for the
people that come to know seeking treatment for it. Another
(24:58):
area I'd say is. Foster care and just the speed
of access to care. I think we're going to continue
to see progress there. We right now already can just
hop on our phones any time of day if we're
looking to see someone for, let's say, wake up on
a weekend with some kind of eye infection and I
(25:19):
would like to see my primary care doctor but wouldn't
be able to get an ordinarily, I've in the past
been able to just log on to my phone and
you know, within 15 minutes you see someone. I'd say
increasing use of AI is another really interesting area currently.
And I think we're going to see that, you know,
in part recent, you know, recently there's been a lot
of focus on ChatGPT and how different new forms of
(25:43):
AI are improving health care. There was a study on
how the what was it ChatGPT outperformed doctors on empathy scores.
While I'm not sure that that's going to be the
primary way that we see improvements, there are also improvements
in automating tasks like scheduling, and when helping identify information
(26:04):
in that can help inform clinical decision making. So I
think there's so much potential there and we're just seeing
the beginning of it.
Shiva (26:12):
Wow, that's a full list. And I think I want
to stay on that last bit piece because I've heard
this from Stefan and others in the health care as well.
There is because of the regulatory and this is not
your area, because of the regulatory requirements, clinicians have to
do a lot more work than just caring and serving
(26:34):
and spending time with the patients. And a lot of
people are very optimistic about the opportunities of leveraging AI
to automate a whole lot of back office or even
prep work or clinical decision support for clinicians, including therapists.
So that's an area that a lot of people, including myself,
(26:56):
are very, very excited about. Thanks so much for for
sharing that. I'm really glad to hear that from you
as well.
Sabrina (27:03):
I was just going to agree and, you know, think that,
you know, in terms of automating these back office functions,
the more that you can free up clinician time to
focus on the work we want them to be focused
on the better, the happier clinicians are going to be,
more they can focus on, you know, the most pressing issues.
And it's, you know, it's a huge, huge area for
our area of opportunity for the company.
Shiva (27:24):
Absolutely. Kudos to that. Absolutely. With that in mind and
with AI, with technology, healthcare and even on the policy side,
things are shifting and moving a lot faster than we
have ever imagined in this sector compared to any time
in the past. Where is now headed in the next
(27:46):
6 to 12 months, considering the pace of change?
Sabrina (27:49):
It's a great question and things are always changing. You know,
I'd say that one big thing at a high level
is that no CD is focused on our educational efforts
to increase awareness of OCD and our treatment offerings. No
CD really sees that this can be not just life changing,
but life saving treatment. You know, sadly, in this population,
(28:11):
rates of suicide can be believe it's 1 in 10
times higher than in most of the population. And and
the ability to educate people on this condition and to
reach more people who would not even know to look
for this kind of treatment I think is is the
biggest area where we're going to see, see change and
(28:32):
see no CD. You know, really, I think probably be
able to help more people. Wow.
Shiva (28:38):
I did not know that. That's very much that's alarming.
But at the same time, a huge opportunity. Right, for
all of us, including no CD. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah, well,
given all that kind of convergence of trends from consumer behavior,
technology policy and whatnot that we discussed, I'm curious, as
(29:03):
a thought leader, what other trends are you paying attention
to right now, especially as a partner and as a
strategic advisor to the executive team?
Sabrina (29:14):
So this issue of health equity is something that was
brought into focus during the pandemic. It's been been an
issue for a long time, but it was something that,
as the pandemic hit, hit marginalized and underserved communities particularly hard.
I think, you know, people have have understood that it's
so important to provide services that will will benefit those groups.
(29:36):
You know, health plans are increasing requirements to train providers
and cultural competence. More companies actually have been created to
offer trainings to this end. And at the same time,
providers are increasingly focused on this as they're seeking to
reach and better serve new patient populations.
Shiva (29:53):
Well, I want to just take a minute for our
audience to reflect on a couple of points that you
brought up around value based care. Which I know from CMS,
you know, government agencies, everyone pays a ton of attention to.
For no other reason than you want to do what
is valuable for the patient, but also the whole ecosystem
(30:15):
from a cost perspective. It's very encouraging to see companies
like No CD really putting that as a center stage
of how they bring solutions and care to market, because
it's one thing to do the right thing, but for
the right thing to have a long standing presence in
(30:37):
the marketplace, it should be also economically viable. And I
love how we know that ROI is so evident in what,
you know, these use cases are bringing to the payers.
And the plans, which I can imagine is part of
the reason why you guys have been able to have
(30:59):
a have a little bit of an easier time essentially
partnering and selling into the payer ecosystem, which, you know,
they're bombarded by a lot of pitches and ideas and companies.
But to see no CD kind of be a center
stage and offer real economic value in terms of reducing
costs from a per member per month basis save lives,
(31:22):
change lives. Like doing like again, checking all the boxes
is very, very inspiring.
Sabrina (31:29):
Yep, we've talked about this, but the outcomes that no
CDC is, is is really what you can attribute that to.
We see that we're able to start working with people who,
you know, are outpatient and help them manage, manage their symptoms,
get to a place where you know, where they can
really continue to function and see such improvement. Whereas if
(31:51):
someone gets to the point where where it goes to
hours a day or, you know, even worse than that
and they have to be in intensive outpatient care or,
you know, residential treatment or, you know, like a higher
level of care, you see such higher expense that the
payers are then going to be saddled with. And so the,
you know, the no model of being able to provide
(32:12):
this service at a point where we can help people
be able to function normally and not have these ballooning
health care costs as they're in one of those other
types of treatment programs is something that that is a
huge selling point to payers and, you know.
Shiva (32:27):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that early detection or early diagnosis, it's
so key in offering and accelerating and putting people on
a path for better health, but also avoiding those large
out of pocket costs, but both for the patient, but
(32:50):
also to the health care ecosystem. That's all very, very powerful.
I feel like we can talk for hours. I just
want to make sure we are not leaving anything on
the table, especially because I'm talking to an activist, you know?
And so going back to those roots, going back to
(33:10):
the start of the conversation, what drove you to practice
law and and then come to health care as a
general counsel to a very mission driven company, like no
CD Is there any other kind of overarching trends or
factors that's driving your thoughts with respect to health and
future of health care?
Sabrina (33:31):
Yeah, I mean, I guess like one last one I
think would be just going back to my environmental roots,
seeing an increasing awareness of the impact of environmental pollution
and other environmental impact on health. And I know you
you just did another episode on on this, actually, and
I see it as so encouraging that people are beginning
(33:53):
to focus on this and the impact that living near
a diesel polluted highway or another industrial complex can impact
people who, you know, are neighborhoods where unfortunately that level
of exposure is so high that their increased rates of
asthma and mortality. And so I think, you know, for me,
(34:13):
that's one area personally that I care deeply about. And
I'm very happy to see that trend of awareness and
hopefully more initiatives to address it increasing.
Shiva (34:22):
Absolutely. No, I'm so happy that you brought that up
because at the end of the day, our physical health
is very connected to our mental health, and our mental
health is very connected to our physical health. We are one.
And this you know, we are one unit, one entity.
And that whole practice of wholeness, health or functional health
(34:42):
or functional care is very, very important. And I'm just
so inspired by all the work that no CD or
self and the team is doing to bringing that insight
and education forefront to people that might not otherwise think
they have anything to do with. You know, OCD, but
being aware of it and understanding potentially their symptoms and
(35:07):
being able to connect the dots, even if you're not
a patient or someone who is currently diagnosed with OCD
is very, very important. But it's just sort of the
way I feel like. Sabrina Right. It's an ever expanding
area of research, development and learning for all of us,
(35:29):
but very inspired to have people like you at the
forefront of it. I saw admire what you are doing
and your profession. Congratulations and becoming a mom and paving
the path for all of us really in health care,
mental health and being multifaceted human beings and working moms.
(35:52):
It's just fabulous. I bet that our people want to
get connected with you and your final thoughts and how
we might connect with you via social media or otherwise.
Sabrina (36:03):
Thanks, Shiva. Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn. You can find me
at Sabrina Lowe. And yeah, I'm I'm so excited to
be able to talk about this. I think that this
work that no CD is doing is amazing. I hear
from people that we've helped treat all the time and
from others coming to us and saying, you know what,
what a serious condition OCD is and how important the
(36:23):
work the company is doing is. And I appreciated the
chance to talk about it and and yeah just you know,
I think all of what you're illuminating is is so
important in this space. So thank you.
Shiva (36:35):
Thank you so much. And with that, I want to
thank all of you guys joining us for this fabulous conversation.
And I hope that you have a fabulous rest of
your day. Until next time.
Jared (36:49):
Thanks for tuning in. If you like what you heard,
please spread the word. Tell your colleagues to tune in
for all the awesomeness, then leave a review on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you listen. This show is produced by
Shift Forward Health The channel for Change Makers. Subscribe to
Shift Forward Health on your favorite podcast app and you'll
be subscribed to our entire library of shows. See our
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(37:11):
podcasts you need and it's all for free. And remember,
we might have a lot of work to do in
health care, but we'll get there faster together. Thanks again.
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