August 13, 2025 • 28 mins
Matt Bair and Ryan Hedrick discuss the stigma surrounding addiction and its effects on both individuals struggling with substance use and the family and friends who support them. They explain how societal judgment, assumptions, and misconceptions can make recovery more difficult by creating shame, discouraging people from seeking help, and isolating families.
They also talk about why stigma is so hard to overcome, noting that it is often deeply ingrained in social attitudes, language, and even systems of care. They share strategies for addressing these barriers, including using respectful language, increasing education about addiction, and connecting with local and national support resources.
Resources
You can find us on X and Instagram: @sobriety_pod. Supporting Sobriety is also available on major podcast platforms like Spotify and Apple. Please like, subscribe, and rate our podcast!
Al-Anon: Al-Anon.org
Meetings: aa.rgroup.org/meengs
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Supporting Sobriety podcast, dedicated to the unsung
heroes behind those struggling with addiction. They're friends and family
like you who'll share insights, stories and resources to help
you support your loved ones and care for yourself on
the recovery journey.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was working at a little radio station somewhere back east,
the kind of place where the carpet was worn thin
and the coffee tastes like burnt cardboard. I wanted to
make a good impression, be the guy that showed up early,
stayed late, and never missed a beat. What nobody knew
was that I was really trying to hold my recovery together,
one meeting at a time. I kept that part of
(00:47):
my life quiet, too quiet. I was ashamed of the
stigma that followed people just like me, and I didn't
trust anyone enough to let my guard down, especially not
my boss. This guy was rough around the edge, you know,
he'd been through some shit, some bad deals, and he
would tell me stories about failed restaurant ventures. He always
(01:07):
got to the part about his former partner, the guy
that messed all the money off and went right up
his nose, and then he'd he would give this laugh
that wasn't really a laugh. You could tell there was
more to the story, something he left out every time.
The thing was when he talked about people like that,
I heard my own past in his voice, and it
(01:29):
felt like a punch to the gut. I'd be sitting
there smiling and laughing on the outside, but inside I
was rattled, ashamed, guarded, and it reminded me how hard
I was working to keep my own life from falling apart.
My name is Ryan Headrick, one half of these supporting
Sobriety podcast and I am grateful as all get out
(01:51):
to be clean and sober with you and share my
journey with you on this platform.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I was really young like that. It is early twenties,
and my hairstylist was kind of the workplace spot for
a haircut, and I go over one morning, just across
the street. She's cutting my hair, and somehow we begin
talking about her dad and how he's an alcoholic. She
kept calling him an alcoholic alcoholic, and I'm getting these
(02:17):
pictures in my mind of what I was doing at
the time, just going out and drinking until midnight or
whatever else, and I'm like, wow, he's in his forties.
You know, how could you you better get it together?
That's what I'm thinking at the time. When the conversation progresses,
and I keep asking questions like why can't he stop drinking?
And he should cut back? And I'm thinking, doesn't he
(02:37):
understand his responsibilities? And as the appointment goes on, she
was becoming visibly upset. And I didn't care at the
time because I knew everything about alcoholism and her dad
in willpower and the disease of addiction. You know, I
was in my early twenties. I was a drinker myself,
but I knew everything. You can't tell me anything. My
(02:57):
belief in this stigma of addiction was not only a
boldfaced lie, but I promoted it to a point where
it made one of my friends said she was crying,
starting to cry, holding back to tears. I apologized and
we made up. But I apologize for upsetting her and
not for my incredibly thick headed assessment of for dad.
In fact, I owed him an apology too. Maybe this
(03:18):
is the stigma of addiction. We'll talk about it on
the Supporting Sobriety podcast. I'm Matt Bear in Indianapolis with
four plus sober years and doing it a day at
a time. Let's go.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I found hope in the midst of an overwhelming situation.
Alcoholism can affect any family. Are you in an overwhelming situation?
Because if someone else's drinking, alan On and Altein can help,
call eight sixty six two zero zero zero zero three
three or visit alanon dot org slash hope.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
This is the Supporting Sobriety Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Welcome to the Supporting Sobriety Podcast at Sobriety, Underscore, pod
on x and Instagram. Please like, subscribe, and rate on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you're getting your podcasts right now. Keep
those five star ratings coming, fam, We love you more
than we can express. Today's episode Stigmas Keep You Stoned
(04:15):
Number one, Breaking the Barriers, Number two, Stigmas Keep You Sick,
Number three, Overcoming Stigmas. Now, let's dig in.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Number one Breaking the Barriers Now. We talk about stigma
a lot on the Supporting so Brady Podcast, and we
are today because we haven't talked about it for a while.
It is still like this insidious part of recovery and
the disease of addiction. And here's what a stigma is.
A stigma is like I talked about in my story,
You know, I don't understand alcoholism. Maybe I'm younger and
(04:48):
still in my binge drinking phase in having these large
quantity of alcohol on a night to night basis, and
somebody says to me, Matt, why don't you just cut back?
Or Matt, you know that's irresponsible. There's the assumption there
that there's not the disease of addiction, and it's not
(05:09):
because that other person is cruel or anything. It's because
they're ignorant. And that's really my situation. Although I hate
telling that story so much that we told back in stories.
I hate telling that because it's it was just one
of those moments where I was so wrong, one hundred
percent wrong. But when you talk about the disease of addiction,
there are so many barriers that it puts up, Like,
(05:32):
for example, if you call somebody a drunk, or if
you call somebody a junkie, that's an example of the
stigma that you know this person is bad or immoral
because they are using, because they are addicted to a
substance like alcohol or drugs, and that kind of falls
into the stigma category. The whole stigma bucket you know,
there's a bucket of stigmas, and we don't want to
(05:54):
pull out a bucket of stigmas, you know, we want
to keep that bucket closed. Or could you close a bucket?
You know what I mean? Yeah, you could put a
lid on a buck So that's how I see stigmas, right, Ye.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So breaking the barriers, I mean there's four major ways
that I think you could break the barriers. If you're
the caregiver, you could definitely change the words you use
because a lot of the people that we cater to
that listen to the Supporting Sobriety podcast may have one
quote unquote normal child, and I use that term in
the looseless, most way and most loving way I can.
(06:27):
You know, you may have a kid that never like
went above and beyond like Matt and myself. You know,
maybe you never stayed out on that and did drugs.
Maybe you just did it one night and then cleaned
it up and never used again or used six months later,
something like that. But changing the words you use, like
junkie and crackhead and stuff like that. We'll get into
more of that as the show goes on. But how
about sharing real stories? I mean, there's nothing more that
(06:50):
could break a stigma. Then listening to the Supporting Sobriety podcast,
you hear the stories of the way we used to
live like they're shared in the past, tense, but when
they come to the light and we make a full
circle and we present our facts about how we overcame addiction.
I think that's a very real way to break a barrier. Also,
educating yourself. Not everybody that uses is an addict. I
(07:15):
get pissed off. I've told the story before. My friend
is an attorney in Los Angeles. He graduated from Pepperdine University.
Every time they get a big settlement, him and his team,
him in his firm, they celebrate by renting a mansion
in the Hollywood Hills and getting strippers in cocaine for
a weekend. They can do that, It's back to work
(07:36):
on Monday. I couldn't do that shit, right, I could
not do that. Also, supporting and not shaming. A lot
of our caregivers are on the fence about you know,
should I support my addict? Am I enabling them? And
a lot of times it's just we need to hear
positive words of affirmation. You can recover. You don't have
(07:59):
to use it again. You are loved. There's a lot
of shame and guilt in using and putting drugs above
everything you love.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
I think about the times when I was younger, and
I don't do this anymore, that I might have called
somebody a crackhead or a drunk. If I'm calling somebody
a drunk, I'm trying to divert away the attention to
me for being a drunk or for being incredibly intoxicated.
But a lot of times, to cover our own fallacies
or our own problems, we will redirect our anger to
(08:30):
something else or somebody else, and a lot of times
that includes ridicule. You know, if I call you a crackhead,
I'm not trying to be nice about it. I'm not
trying to help you. It's not to hurt. It is
meant to hurt. And that's the same with calling somebody
a drunk. And now, listen, you may be calling somebody
a drunk or crackhead out of frustration. Maybe they're at
your party and they're ruining everything and you're just angry.
(08:50):
And I get that. You know, when I was drunk,
I brought out the worst responses of people. You know,
just with my behavior, and I get that. But now
if I'm in a mindset where I'm thinking, man, look
at that guy in the street. It's five am. He
must be a crackhead. You know, I'm not being nice
(09:11):
about that, right, you know, because that guy hasn't done
anything to me. And it's this assumption that if you're
using and you're addicted, that you can just start gradually
putting it down whenever you want, or you know, I
can taper. You know, I had a lot of people,
normal people as they called him, now well look at
me and say, yeah, just get back a little bit.
(09:31):
I'm like, okay, yeah, that's the gird on, Like I've
never thought about that before. I'm like, I did. It's
called Tuesday and I'm not right now. But that's that
goes along with the stigma of addiction. And you know,
sometimes you might see a stand up comic, you know,
calling somebody a crackheaded man. Do I have gallows humor?
I mean I hear something like I can laugh at anything,
(09:54):
but even now, and it's not like I get mad
or anything, but I'm like, I hear that term and
I'm like, eh, we're calling somebody a drug I'm like, ugh,
because it just perpetuates that stigma. There's very much this
huge barrier there that allows like me, as somebody in
recovery or somebody that doesn't use to point a finger
(10:16):
and say, ha, I'm better than you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, if you're a caregiver and you're having trouble
trusting your loved one who's an active addiction, why don't
you lead by example and give somebody a shot that's
not directly related to you, something that will benefit you.
Then maybe in recovery, like trusting them to walk with
you to the car to take your groceries, or hiring
(10:39):
somebody in recovery, if you're in a position to do that,
maybe to build that trust so that the next time
you go to stigmatize something, you have an example of
what addiction and recovery look like as opposed to what
active addiction look like. I mean, this is recovery is
not a one size fits all solution, right, We're both
in twelve step fellowships. I know people that go to
(11:02):
church to stay clean. I know people that take care
of their kids to stay clean, or work their dream
job to stay clean. So it's not a one size
fits all solution. Breaking the barriers really starts with a
conversation about what addiction is and what it isn't number
two stigmas keep you sick? Yes, yes, and yes. You
(11:24):
know that story that I shared about my boss and
I intentionally left out his name because it's not his fault.
And you know I was doing a talk show one time.
Here's case in point, man, I was doing a talk
show one time. It was around New Year's Eve and
the station was in Pennsylvania. We brought in a state
trooper and it was the type of show where I
(11:45):
hosted the show and he sat in the other seat
and down Jamison and the trooper would sit there with
a breathalyzer and breathaalize him every time he took a
shot to show to illustrate to the listener how how
quickly your blood alcohol level rises and how quickly it
can rise after one shot, two shot, three shot, whatever.
(12:07):
So he got so drunk that I ended up being
the designated driver to take him home. Now, if he
would have known my recovery passed, he may have judged
me differently because I'm the one who didn't drink right.
I'm the one who stayed around after the show to
drive him around. So, yeah, stigmas keep us sick, especially
(12:28):
when we're not setting boundaries and making healthy choices. It's
my choice that I use cocaine and meth for so long,
but it's also my choice and the responsibility that I
showed making a decision to get into recovery that actually
made it possible for me to talk about stigmas keeping
people sick.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
My biggest thing was when I think about somebody who
was alcoholic. I think at the town that I used
to live in, and there was a guy who was
at a particular we'll just call it a club for now,
and he was drunk every night, and I would think, man,
what an alcoholic? And the reason I was doing that
is because I was drinking every single night. And if
(13:10):
I'm able to point at somebody and call them an
alcoholic or say that they're a drunk, then I'm not
I'm able to keep the truth away from myself. And
that's exactly what I was doing. It's a deflection. I
look at this man, and I look at his struggles
and the disease, and I say, man, what a drug.
Well I feel better about myself. You know, that's what
the disease of addiction wants you to do. Be like, yeah,
(13:32):
you don't really know that I'm here. You know, I'm
the disease of addiction. I'm sitting on your shoulder right now.
I'm here, but you don't know it. So I'm gonna
whisper to your ear and keep being judgmental. They keep
and they keep those stigmas up because those stigmas are
going to keep you from realizing that, yes, you are
very much an alcoholic, making you do that first step
(13:54):
admission that you're powerless of alcohol and that your life
has become unmanageable. Disease of addiction. He doesn't want us
to recognize that disease of addiction, doesn't want us to
city and be like, ooh, that's me. So yeah, they
very much do keep you sick. They kept me sick
for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So when it comes to keeping people sick, I have
to own something. So I was doing a news story
this week in Indianapolis, where the show is taped, and
there was a guy that I know for a fact.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I mean he was either in.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
A psychosis a drug related psychosis. And the only reason
I'm saying this is we talk about stigmas is that
I've been in a drug related psychosis. So I am
an expert on this stuff. I have lived this stuff.
I know this stuff. I know what one looks like. Anyway,
what do you mean by psychosis? So a psychosis is
brought on by too much drug use. Quite frankly, you
(14:45):
are too high to come down. It's the most layman
terms explanation I could give you. You have done so many
drugs at such a high frequency, and the drugs are
so powerful they have taken over your imagination, your body,
your soul. You're seeing, you're seeing people, you're hearing conversations.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Now you told him the story about walking down the
street backwards, Well that was a psychochosis. Okay, that was
a psychosis.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So this guy was deep into a psychosis that he
probably was never coming out of. So I thought it
was funny at least to videotape him talking about the
vice president because that's who I was covering on this
specific day at the State House where we tape the
show again, and I turned the recorder on thinking he'd
(15:30):
say something funny. But he thought that Jade Vance was
the mayor and not the vice president. Was it was
beyond a political a foul up. It's not like he
didn't know politics. This guy didn't know where the hell
he was at the time. I got a laugh out
of it. But for me, and I didn't broadcast this anywhere.
I didn't share it anywhere, nothing like that. I just
(15:51):
kept it to myself and have sense a race.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
You did a human thing, and you know we're human.
We make we do these things. But that's how we
heart people sick, man, Isn't it like it is?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Who am I to do that to this guy when
I'm a sick and suffering addict and I could be
a sick and suffering addict any day, any minute, any second.
But to perpetuate that that stigma and not offer a
hand out to help him, you know that?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
That's my bad man. Well, it's it's admirable that you're
saying that, but you this is the complications of recovery.
When I first got sober, I wanted to be perfect,
and there's still a little bit of part of me.
There's so much shame that I've had in my past life,
my drinking and drugging career, that I was like, Okay,
you're going to come out here, and I want you
(16:37):
to be a model citizen, whatever the fuck that means,
to be a class act, whatever the fuck that means.
I don't know what that means either, and I found
out quickly. Uh quickly is a relative term, but I
found out that that's just not possible. And the same
applies to you or any recovering alcoholic or addict. We
are going to make mistakes, and one of the best things,
(16:59):
especially in a case like this being unable to find
this gentleman, is that we just try to do better
going forward. That's the beauty of recovery. We learned from
our mistakes. We talk about our mistakes like you just
did gallantly, and then we proceed with our lives trying
to do better, make that honest to God effort to
do better. And that's that's why recovery is such a
beautiful thing. And that's why when we have guys like
(17:22):
you who come in here and say or go to
meetings or whatever it is and say, yeah, this is
what I did and I feel shitty about it. That
brings down the barriers of stigma. Okay, that shows integrity,
That shows that, yes, I am making this honest to
God effort to go forward that I'm not going to
keep something like this down in my guts. You know,
(17:43):
I'm gonna let it out. I'm going to talk about
it because I don't want this to happen again. Not
because for me, but because I think I made this
guy feel bad. You Whino, have you ever been nobody? Yes?
I have you? Oh? Man, I was a big wine
an old, n't it? That's like, uh yeah, oh look
he's a whino. He's a drunk. I mean, you know something,
(18:06):
it's it's it's kind of now we just go straight
to calling people a ship faced and we skip pointo.
The terminology has evolved over the decades. Now now we
have other terms for it. Yes, call of wino. Used
to drink wine all the time, real cheap wine, like
bottles at a time, like boons Farm. It wasn't boons Farm.
Step up with boons Farm. I think instead of four
(18:27):
dollars a bottle was six.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I used to love crack cocaine and boons Farm because
both were cheap drugs.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yes, I'm so glad. I didn't know crack cocaine is cheap.
I thought everything was oxy cotton prices, you know, like
fifty dollars a pill. But I'm telling you, yeah, overcoming
stigmas is exactly what happened in our last point and
exactly what we're talking about today. To overcome stigmas, we
(18:52):
first have to have the belief that stigmas exist and
that stigmas are a problem. And think about this. If
we're talking about recovery in alcoholism and addiction in recovery
like terms, in a helpful way, in a spiritual way,
you're not going to be using those stigmas of addiction.
Those get torn down. So where does that leave the caregiver? Though?
Because we're the ones with the program, right, We're the
(19:13):
ones that say what you will? I say, blessed to
be a recovering alcoholic, you know, who has to work
on himself every single day, and whether it comes all
this extra good stuff you get in there. Man, I
know things about self improvement and how to treat other people,
all this good stuff, But how do you actually overcome
the stigma? That's that's It's a complicated question to me. Yeah,
(19:35):
it really is.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
So you're the caregiver and I'm gonna I'm gonna play
the caregiver for a moment, and by the way. Thank
you for being a caregiver. I don't I don't feel
like I on this show enough. Thank you for putting
up with our shit because you have lived and gone
above and beyond the call of duty. And we're here
because of you. We're here because your love, your empathy.
(19:58):
You're because you care for us, man, and you know,
overcoming stigma starts with me doing my part to make
my recovery my responsibility, and then for you to slowly
accept that recovery is the solution.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
In my life.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I mean, I think it starts and ends with us, Matt,
because we have it's our burden to bear, it's our
you know, it's our responsibility to get to a meeting,
to call our sponsor. And then with the caregiver seeing
the tangible evidence that I'm no longer stealing money, I'm
no longer taking pills out of the house. I haven't
borrowed your car without you asking. We haven't had a
(20:37):
new court case that you have to drive me to
court because I got my license suspended for driving drunk.
None of this stuff has happened, and slowly, together as
a team, as a family, we are overcoming the stigma
of addiction. Because I am taking ownership of my recovery
in you, as the caregiver, the wonderful person you are.
(20:58):
You are seeing that this commitment to a new way
of life is working. It's working, and that's I think
that's the biggest and best way we overcome stigmas.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Okay, you're the caregiver. Now, as the caregiver, you have
a thought that your wife might be an alcoholic total hypothetical.
Is that stigma or is that not?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
No?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I don't think it's stigma as long as I have evidence.
I mean, what type of evidence is there to lead
me to believe other than me wanting to pin this
label on my wife so that I could go back
to drinking. Right, she's an alcoholic, so I'm gonna have drink,
And that's what happens.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Sometimes happened.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
But if I find if I'm finding bottles in the couches,
or I'm finding receipts from bars, or she's coming in late,
stumbling in, making noise when I'm trying to sleep and
she's wasted. Yeah, or if she's not coming home, God forbid.
I mean that that stuff happens too. So yeah, there's evidence,
and then there's speculation, and I think it's not even
(22:01):
a fine line you'll be able to know.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I think there's a huge difference to when somebody looks
at somebody and says they're drunk. Oh my god, they're
drunk again, or somebody looking at somebody and saying this
person might be an alcoholic, because the latter, to me,
says is kind of more in a caregiving, helpful mode.
I mean, when I say somebody's drunk, I'm getting the
(22:24):
hell away and i don't want anything to do with them,
and I'm not trying to help them, you know, and
some of that self preservation, some of that is just
flat out selfishness on my part. But if I look
at somebody and say they might be alcoholic, then there's
kind of a not an intrusive mode like you were saying.
You know, I'm not gonna be like, oh you will go,
you know, and grab and throw them in the back
(22:45):
of the trunk and take them to the fairbanks. I would
rather look at them and just be there for them.
But when you say somebody might be alcoholic, to me,
it's like, say, Okay, there might be a solution here.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
If you're saying, hey, this person's drunk, you get them
right home. Yeah, drunk to me is a one time thing.
An alcoholic is a progressive state that yes, you have
seen this person time and time again. They're developing a pattern.
It is a trend. They are missing work, they're missing bills,
they're missing all kinds of stuff. Not showing up for
life in the way you and I didn't show up
(23:18):
for life when we were using there is Uh. Yeah,
you will be able to know if somebody is an alcoholic.
Recapping the list. Number one breaking the barriers, Number two
stigmas keep you sick. Number three overcoming stigmas.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
All right, when we come back, we're gonna put some
closing thoughts on this about the stigma of addiction ad
why stigma keeps a stone and uh connect you with
the supporting sobridy community that's coming up on the Supporting
Sobriety podcast. I had changed the locks, didn't even know
where she was living, and one night she calls to
(23:57):
say she's getting treatment. Can I drive? I almost hung up,
but then I thought, that's my kid. I chose to
put away the hurt and the fear and.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Just see my girl.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Addiction is a disease. Standing by a loved one as
they fight. It will test your faith, patience, and sanity.
But it's possible when you see the person, not just
their disease. Learn more at see Beyond the Addiction dot org.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
This is the Supporting Sobriety Podcast.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Welcome back to the Supporting Sobriety Podcast today, where we
discussed how the stigma surrounding addiction keep you stoned. Stigma
is a difficult thing to overcome. I'm not gonna lie.
It takes a hell of a lot of work to recover.
It takes a lot of dedication from your loved one,
and it takes even more perseverance from you to see
(24:54):
through that person you know is on the inside like
you are, Like I know they are in there. If
just for one minute, they can stop using and live
a new way of life. And at the end of
the day, stigma only has power if we remain silent.
Because I think the more we talk about addiction, this
podcast is the most important podcast in the country in
(25:17):
my opinion. There's a lot of bullshit out there, a
lot of stuff that will keep you sick. The politics,
the crap talk. This is real talk. Millions and millions
and millions of people are dealing with addiction. It is
tearing families up. So the more we speak and live
our truth and treat people like we want to be treated,
(25:37):
the weaker the stigma gets matt because recovery is hard
enough without the way to the shame.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Fuck.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I've worked hard for my recovery. The past four years
going on five years have been battle tested. So you know,
let's live our truth. Let's lift people up and share
the supporting Sobriety podcast everywhere you go.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, this is a personal thing and I'm not going
to put the Z on anybody else. But the only
time that I have used terms like drunk or crackhead
or potthead or anything like that is when I was
trying to hurt somebody and cover up something of myself.
And that's a big thing recovery has taught me. And
I'm not saying anybody else. It's like that my story
is mine and yours is yours. But it's something to
(26:18):
think about in a sense of why do we still
carry these stigmas of addiction? Why do we not believe
in the disease of addiction? And a lot of times
that's because we do it because we are vulnerable. We
do it because we don't want to admit something, and
that that was very much a situation for me. You know,
when I told this story about getting my hair cut
(26:40):
dad and accusing her dad of not doing enough to
relieve his alcoholism. I mean that was ignorance and subconsciously
I'm covering something though, because yeah, I was born an alcoholic.
I seriously was, and I it took some time to
perfect my craft, maybe twenty five years or something like that.
Anytime I've deployed this stigma of addiction, I've been trying
(27:01):
to hurt somebody. And that's just for me best way
I am. I'm not saying that's that's you, but it's
something to think about. At least. You can find us
on social x, Instagram, at Sobriety, Underscore pod. You can
find supporting sobriety where you're listening now any major podcast provider.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
We love having you. Please like subscribing, rate and keep
those five star ratings coming. More five star ratings mean
more recovery on your timeline, and recovery looks good everywhere
you go.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Baby.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
All right, if you need a meeting, I'm going to
one after this. Al Hyphenanon dot org. NA has tremendous
resources NA dot org the suicide Prevention Line. Most major
cities nine eight eight will get you right to the
suicide prevention line, but if you live in a small
rural community, it's one eight hundred two seven three eight
two five five twenty four seven. And remember, when there's breath,
(27:54):
there's hope.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Thank you for listening to the Supporting Sobriety podcast
Welcome to the Supporting Sobriety podcast, dedicated to the unsung
heroes behind those struggling with addiction. They're friends and family
like you who'll share insights, stories and resources to help
you support your loved ones and care for yourself on
the recovery journey.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I was working at a little radio station somewhere back east,
the kind of place where the carpet was worn thin
and the coffee tastes like burnt cardboard. I wanted to
make a good impression, be the guy that showed up early,
stayed late, and never missed a beat. What nobody knew
was that I was really trying to hold my recovery together,
one meeting at a time. I kept that part of
(00:47):
my life quiet, too quiet. I was ashamed of the
stigma that followed people just like me, and I didn't
trust anyone enough to let my guard down, especially not
my boss. This guy was rough around the edge, you know,
he'd been through some shit, some bad deals, and he
would tell me stories about failed restaurant ventures. He always
(01:07):
got to the part about his former partner, the guy
that messed all the money off and went right up
his nose, and then he'd he would give this laugh
that wasn't really a laugh. You could tell there was
more to the story, something he left out every time.
The thing was when he talked about people like that,
I heard my own past in his voice, and it
(01:29):
felt like a punch to the gut. I'd be sitting
there smiling and laughing on the outside, but inside I
was rattled, ashamed, guarded, and it reminded me how hard
I was working to keep my own life from falling apart.
My name is Ryan Headrick, one half of these supporting
Sobriety podcast and I am grateful as all get out
(01:51):
to be clean and sober with you and share my
journey with you on this platform.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
I was really young like that. It is early twenties,
and my hairstylist was kind of the workplace spot for
a haircut, and I go over one morning, just across
the street. She's cutting my hair, and somehow we begin
talking about her dad and how he's an alcoholic. She
kept calling him an alcoholic alcoholic, and I'm getting these
(02:17):
pictures in my mind of what I was doing at
the time, just going out and drinking until midnight or
whatever else, and I'm like, wow, he's in his forties.
You know, how could you you better get it together?
That's what I'm thinking at the time. When the conversation progresses,
and I keep asking questions like why can't he stop drinking?
And he should cut back? And I'm thinking, doesn't he
(02:37):
understand his responsibilities? And as the appointment goes on, she
was becoming visibly upset. And I didn't care at the
time because I knew everything about alcoholism and her dad
in willpower and the disease of addiction. You know, I
was in my early twenties. I was a drinker myself,
but I knew everything. You can't tell me anything. My
(02:57):
belief in this stigma of addiction was not only a
boldfaced lie, but I promoted it to a point where
it made one of my friends said she was crying,
starting to cry, holding back to tears. I apologized and
we made up. But I apologize for upsetting her and
not for my incredibly thick headed assessment of for dad.
In fact, I owed him an apology too. Maybe this
(03:18):
is the stigma of addiction. We'll talk about it on
the Supporting Sobriety podcast. I'm Matt Bear in Indianapolis with
four plus sober years and doing it a day at
a time. Let's go.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
I found hope in the midst of an overwhelming situation.
Alcoholism can affect any family. Are you in an overwhelming situation?
Because if someone else's drinking, alan On and Altein can help,
call eight sixty six two zero zero zero zero three
three or visit alanon dot org slash hope.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
This is the Supporting Sobriety Podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Welcome to the Supporting Sobriety Podcast at Sobriety, Underscore, pod
on x and Instagram. Please like, subscribe, and rate on Apple,
Spotify or wherever you're getting your podcasts right now. Keep
those five star ratings coming, fam, We love you more
than we can express. Today's episode Stigmas Keep You Stoned
(04:15):
Number one, Breaking the Barriers, Number two, Stigmas Keep You Sick,
Number three, Overcoming Stigmas. Now, let's dig in.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Number one Breaking the Barriers Now. We talk about stigma
a lot on the Supporting so Brady Podcast, and we
are today because we haven't talked about it for a while.
It is still like this insidious part of recovery and
the disease of addiction. And here's what a stigma is.
A stigma is like I talked about in my story,
You know, I don't understand alcoholism. Maybe I'm younger and
(04:48):
still in my binge drinking phase in having these large
quantity of alcohol on a night to night basis, and
somebody says to me, Matt, why don't you just cut back?
Or Matt, you know that's irresponsible. There's the assumption there
that there's not the disease of addiction, and it's not
(05:09):
because that other person is cruel or anything. It's because
they're ignorant. And that's really my situation. Although I hate
telling that story so much that we told back in stories.
I hate telling that because it's it was just one
of those moments where I was so wrong, one hundred
percent wrong. But when you talk about the disease of addiction,
there are so many barriers that it puts up, Like,
(05:32):
for example, if you call somebody a drunk, or if
you call somebody a junkie, that's an example of the
stigma that you know this person is bad or immoral
because they are using, because they are addicted to a
substance like alcohol or drugs, and that kind of falls
into the stigma category. The whole stigma bucket you know,
there's a bucket of stigmas, and we don't want to
(05:54):
pull out a bucket of stigmas, you know, we want
to keep that bucket closed. Or could you close a bucket?
You know what I mean? Yeah, you could put a
lid on a buck So that's how I see stigmas, right, Ye.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
So breaking the barriers, I mean there's four major ways
that I think you could break the barriers. If you're
the caregiver, you could definitely change the words you use
because a lot of the people that we cater to
that listen to the Supporting Sobriety podcast may have one
quote unquote normal child, and I use that term in
the looseless, most way and most loving way I can.
(06:27):
You know, you may have a kid that never like
went above and beyond like Matt and myself. You know,
maybe you never stayed out on that and did drugs.
Maybe you just did it one night and then cleaned
it up and never used again or used six months later,
something like that. But changing the words you use, like
junkie and crackhead and stuff like that. We'll get into
more of that as the show goes on. But how
about sharing real stories? I mean, there's nothing more that
(06:50):
could break a stigma. Then listening to the Supporting Sobriety podcast,
you hear the stories of the way we used to
live like they're shared in the past, tense, but when
they come to the light and we make a full
circle and we present our facts about how we overcame addiction.
I think that's a very real way to break a barrier. Also,
educating yourself. Not everybody that uses is an addict. I
(07:15):
get pissed off. I've told the story before. My friend
is an attorney in Los Angeles. He graduated from Pepperdine University.
Every time they get a big settlement, him and his team,
him in his firm, they celebrate by renting a mansion
in the Hollywood Hills and getting strippers in cocaine for
a weekend. They can do that, It's back to work
(07:36):
on Monday. I couldn't do that shit, right, I could
not do that. Also, supporting and not shaming. A lot
of our caregivers are on the fence about you know,
should I support my addict? Am I enabling them? And
a lot of times it's just we need to hear
positive words of affirmation. You can recover. You don't have
(07:59):
to use it again. You are loved. There's a lot
of shame and guilt in using and putting drugs above
everything you love.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
I think about the times when I was younger, and
I don't do this anymore, that I might have called
somebody a crackhead or a drunk. If I'm calling somebody
a drunk, I'm trying to divert away the attention to
me for being a drunk or for being incredibly intoxicated.
But a lot of times, to cover our own fallacies
or our own problems, we will redirect our anger to
(08:30):
something else or somebody else, and a lot of times
that includes ridicule. You know, if I call you a crackhead,
I'm not trying to be nice about it. I'm not
trying to help you. It's not to hurt. It is
meant to hurt. And that's the same with calling somebody
a drunk. And now, listen, you may be calling somebody
a drunk or crackhead out of frustration. Maybe they're at
your party and they're ruining everything and you're just angry.
(08:50):
And I get that. You know, when I was drunk,
I brought out the worst responses of people. You know,
just with my behavior, and I get that. But now
if I'm in a mindset where I'm thinking, man, look
at that guy in the street. It's five am. He
must be a crackhead. You know, I'm not being nice
(09:11):
about that, right, you know, because that guy hasn't done
anything to me. And it's this assumption that if you're
using and you're addicted, that you can just start gradually
putting it down whenever you want, or you know, I
can taper. You know, I had a lot of people,
normal people as they called him, now well look at
me and say, yeah, just get back a little bit.
(09:31):
I'm like, okay, yeah, that's the gird on, Like I've
never thought about that before. I'm like, I did. It's
called Tuesday and I'm not right now. But that's that
goes along with the stigma of addiction. And you know,
sometimes you might see a stand up comic, you know,
calling somebody a crackheaded man. Do I have gallows humor?
I mean I hear something like I can laugh at anything,
(09:54):
but even now, and it's not like I get mad
or anything, but I'm like, I hear that term and
I'm like, eh, we're calling somebody a drug I'm like, ugh,
because it just perpetuates that stigma. There's very much this
huge barrier there that allows like me, as somebody in
recovery or somebody that doesn't use to point a finger
(10:16):
and say, ha, I'm better than you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
You know, if you're a caregiver and you're having trouble
trusting your loved one who's an active addiction, why don't
you lead by example and give somebody a shot that's
not directly related to you, something that will benefit you.
Then maybe in recovery, like trusting them to walk with
you to the car to take your groceries, or hiring
(10:39):
somebody in recovery, if you're in a position to do that,
maybe to build that trust so that the next time
you go to stigmatize something, you have an example of
what addiction and recovery look like as opposed to what
active addiction look like. I mean, this is recovery is
not a one size fits all solution, right, We're both
in twelve step fellowships. I know people that go to
(11:02):
church to stay clean. I know people that take care
of their kids to stay clean, or work their dream
job to stay clean. So it's not a one size
fits all solution. Breaking the barriers really starts with a
conversation about what addiction is and what it isn't number
two stigmas keep you sick? Yes, yes, and yes. You
(11:24):
know that story that I shared about my boss and
I intentionally left out his name because it's not his fault.
And you know I was doing a talk show one time.
Here's case in point, man, I was doing a talk
show one time. It was around New Year's Eve and
the station was in Pennsylvania. We brought in a state
trooper and it was the type of show where I
(11:45):
hosted the show and he sat in the other seat
and down Jamison and the trooper would sit there with
a breathalyzer and breathaalize him every time he took a
shot to show to illustrate to the listener how how
quickly your blood alcohol level rises and how quickly it
can rise after one shot, two shot, three shot, whatever.
(12:07):
So he got so drunk that I ended up being
the designated driver to take him home. Now, if he
would have known my recovery passed, he may have judged
me differently because I'm the one who didn't drink right.
I'm the one who stayed around after the show to
drive him around. So, yeah, stigmas keep us sick, especially
(12:28):
when we're not setting boundaries and making healthy choices. It's
my choice that I use cocaine and meth for so long,
but it's also my choice and the responsibility that I
showed making a decision to get into recovery that actually
made it possible for me to talk about stigmas keeping
people sick.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
My biggest thing was when I think about somebody who
was alcoholic. I think at the town that I used
to live in, and there was a guy who was
at a particular we'll just call it a club for now,
and he was drunk every night, and I would think, man,
what an alcoholic? And the reason I was doing that
is because I was drinking every single night. And if
(13:10):
I'm able to point at somebody and call them an
alcoholic or say that they're a drunk, then I'm not
I'm able to keep the truth away from myself. And
that's exactly what I was doing. It's a deflection. I
look at this man, and I look at his struggles
and the disease, and I say, man, what a drug.
Well I feel better about myself. You know, that's what
the disease of addiction wants you to do. Be like, yeah,
(13:32):
you don't really know that I'm here. You know, I'm
the disease of addiction. I'm sitting on your shoulder right now.
I'm here, but you don't know it. So I'm gonna
whisper to your ear and keep being judgmental. They keep
and they keep those stigmas up because those stigmas are
going to keep you from realizing that, yes, you are
very much an alcoholic, making you do that first step
(13:54):
admission that you're powerless of alcohol and that your life
has become unmanageable. Disease of addiction. He doesn't want us
to recognize that disease of addiction, doesn't want us to
city and be like, ooh, that's me. So yeah, they
very much do keep you sick. They kept me sick
for a long time. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
So when it comes to keeping people sick, I have
to own something. So I was doing a news story
this week in Indianapolis, where the show is taped, and
there was a guy that I know for a fact.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I mean he was either in.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
A psychosis a drug related psychosis. And the only reason
I'm saying this is we talk about stigmas is that
I've been in a drug related psychosis. So I am
an expert on this stuff. I have lived this stuff.
I know this stuff. I know what one looks like. Anyway,
what do you mean by psychosis? So a psychosis is
brought on by too much drug use. Quite frankly, you
(14:45):
are too high to come down. It's the most layman
terms explanation I could give you. You have done so many
drugs at such a high frequency, and the drugs are
so powerful they have taken over your imagination, your body,
your soul. You're seeing, you're seeing people, you're hearing conversations.
Speaker 3 (15:03):
Now you told him the story about walking down the
street backwards, Well that was a psychochosis. Okay, that was
a psychosis.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
So this guy was deep into a psychosis that he
probably was never coming out of. So I thought it
was funny at least to videotape him talking about the
vice president because that's who I was covering on this
specific day at the State House where we tape the
show again, and I turned the recorder on thinking he'd
(15:30):
say something funny. But he thought that Jade Vance was
the mayor and not the vice president. Was it was
beyond a political a foul up. It's not like he
didn't know politics. This guy didn't know where the hell
he was at the time. I got a laugh out
of it. But for me, and I didn't broadcast this anywhere.
I didn't share it anywhere, nothing like that. I just
(15:51):
kept it to myself and have sense a race.
Speaker 3 (15:53):
You did a human thing, and you know we're human.
We make we do these things. But that's how we
heart people sick, man, Isn't it like it is?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Who am I to do that to this guy when
I'm a sick and suffering addict and I could be
a sick and suffering addict any day, any minute, any second.
But to perpetuate that that stigma and not offer a
hand out to help him, you know that?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
That's my bad man. Well, it's it's admirable that you're
saying that, but you this is the complications of recovery.
When I first got sober, I wanted to be perfect,
and there's still a little bit of part of me.
There's so much shame that I've had in my past life,
my drinking and drugging career, that I was like, Okay,
you're going to come out here, and I want you
(16:37):
to be a model citizen, whatever the fuck that means,
to be a class act, whatever the fuck that means.
I don't know what that means either, and I found
out quickly. Uh quickly is a relative term, but I
found out that that's just not possible. And the same
applies to you or any recovering alcoholic or addict. We
are going to make mistakes, and one of the best things,
(16:59):
especially in a case like this being unable to find
this gentleman, is that we just try to do better
going forward. That's the beauty of recovery. We learned from
our mistakes. We talk about our mistakes like you just
did gallantly, and then we proceed with our lives trying
to do better, make that honest to God effort to
do better. And that's that's why recovery is such a
beautiful thing. And that's why when we have guys like
(17:22):
you who come in here and say or go to
meetings or whatever it is and say, yeah, this is
what I did and I feel shitty about it. That
brings down the barriers of stigma. Okay, that shows integrity,
That shows that, yes, I am making this honest to
God effort to go forward that I'm not going to
keep something like this down in my guts. You know,
(17:43):
I'm gonna let it out. I'm going to talk about
it because I don't want this to happen again. Not
because for me, but because I think I made this
guy feel bad. You Whino, have you ever been nobody? Yes?
I have you? Oh? Man, I was a big wine
an old, n't it? That's like, uh yeah, oh look
he's a whino. He's a drunk. I mean, you know something,
(18:06):
it's it's it's kind of now we just go straight
to calling people a ship faced and we skip pointo.
The terminology has evolved over the decades. Now now we
have other terms for it. Yes, call of wino. Used
to drink wine all the time, real cheap wine, like
bottles at a time, like boons Farm. It wasn't boons Farm.
Step up with boons Farm. I think instead of four
(18:27):
dollars a bottle was six.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
I used to love crack cocaine and boons Farm because
both were cheap drugs.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
Yes, I'm so glad. I didn't know crack cocaine is cheap.
I thought everything was oxy cotton prices, you know, like
fifty dollars a pill. But I'm telling you, yeah, overcoming
stigmas is exactly what happened in our last point and
exactly what we're talking about today. To overcome stigmas, we
(18:52):
first have to have the belief that stigmas exist and
that stigmas are a problem. And think about this. If
we're talking about recovery in alcoholism and addiction in recovery
like terms, in a helpful way, in a spiritual way,
you're not going to be using those stigmas of addiction.
Those get torn down. So where does that leave the caregiver? Though?
Because we're the ones with the program, right, We're the
(19:13):
ones that say what you will? I say, blessed to
be a recovering alcoholic, you know, who has to work
on himself every single day, and whether it comes all
this extra good stuff you get in there. Man, I
know things about self improvement and how to treat other people,
all this good stuff, But how do you actually overcome
the stigma? That's that's It's a complicated question to me. Yeah,
(19:35):
it really is.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
So you're the caregiver and I'm gonna I'm gonna play
the caregiver for a moment, and by the way. Thank
you for being a caregiver. I don't I don't feel
like I on this show enough. Thank you for putting
up with our shit because you have lived and gone
above and beyond the call of duty. And we're here
because of you. We're here because your love, your empathy.
(19:58):
You're because you care for us, man, and you know,
overcoming stigma starts with me doing my part to make
my recovery my responsibility, and then for you to slowly
accept that recovery is the solution.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
In my life.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I mean, I think it starts and ends with us, Matt,
because we have it's our burden to bear, it's our
you know, it's our responsibility to get to a meeting,
to call our sponsor. And then with the caregiver seeing
the tangible evidence that I'm no longer stealing money, I'm
no longer taking pills out of the house. I haven't
borrowed your car without you asking. We haven't had a
(20:37):
new court case that you have to drive me to
court because I got my license suspended for driving drunk.
None of this stuff has happened, and slowly, together as
a team, as a family, we are overcoming the stigma
of addiction. Because I am taking ownership of my recovery
in you, as the caregiver, the wonderful person you are.
(20:58):
You are seeing that this commitment to a new way
of life is working. It's working, and that's I think
that's the biggest and best way we overcome stigmas.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Okay, you're the caregiver. Now, as the caregiver, you have
a thought that your wife might be an alcoholic total hypothetical.
Is that stigma or is that not?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
No?
Speaker 2 (21:20):
I don't think it's stigma as long as I have evidence.
I mean, what type of evidence is there to lead
me to believe other than me wanting to pin this
label on my wife so that I could go back
to drinking. Right, she's an alcoholic, so I'm gonna have drink,
And that's what happens.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
Sometimes happened.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
But if I find if I'm finding bottles in the couches,
or I'm finding receipts from bars, or she's coming in late,
stumbling in, making noise when I'm trying to sleep and
she's wasted. Yeah, or if she's not coming home, God forbid.
I mean that that stuff happens too. So yeah, there's evidence,
and then there's speculation, and I think it's not even
(22:01):
a fine line you'll be able to know.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I think there's a huge difference to when somebody looks
at somebody and says they're drunk. Oh my god, they're
drunk again, or somebody looking at somebody and saying this
person might be an alcoholic, because the latter, to me,
says is kind of more in a caregiving, helpful mode.
I mean, when I say somebody's drunk, I'm getting the
(22:24):
hell away and i don't want anything to do with them,
and I'm not trying to help them, you know, and
some of that self preservation, some of that is just
flat out selfishness on my part. But if I look
at somebody and say they might be alcoholic, then there's
kind of a not an intrusive mode like you were saying.
You know, I'm not gonna be like, oh you will go,
you know, and grab and throw them in the back
(22:45):
of the trunk and take them to the fairbanks. I would
rather look at them and just be there for them.
But when you say somebody might be alcoholic, to me,
it's like, say, Okay, there might be a solution here.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
If you're saying, hey, this person's drunk, you get them
right home. Yeah, drunk to me is a one time thing.
An alcoholic is a progressive state that yes, you have
seen this person time and time again. They're developing a pattern.
It is a trend. They are missing work, they're missing bills,
they're missing all kinds of stuff. Not showing up for
life in the way you and I didn't show up
(23:18):
for life when we were using there is Uh. Yeah,
you will be able to know if somebody is an alcoholic.
Recapping the list. Number one breaking the barriers, Number two
stigmas keep you sick. Number three overcoming stigmas.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
All right, when we come back, we're gonna put some
closing thoughts on this about the stigma of addiction ad
why stigma keeps a stone and uh connect you with
the supporting sobridy community that's coming up on the Supporting
Sobriety podcast. I had changed the locks, didn't even know
where she was living, and one night she calls to
(23:57):
say she's getting treatment. Can I drive? I almost hung up,
but then I thought, that's my kid. I chose to
put away the hurt and the fear and.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Just see my girl.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Addiction is a disease. Standing by a loved one as
they fight. It will test your faith, patience, and sanity.
But it's possible when you see the person, not just
their disease. Learn more at see Beyond the Addiction dot org.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
This is the Supporting Sobriety Podcast.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Welcome back to the Supporting Sobriety Podcast today, where we
discussed how the stigma surrounding addiction keep you stoned. Stigma
is a difficult thing to overcome. I'm not gonna lie.
It takes a hell of a lot of work to recover.
It takes a lot of dedication from your loved one,
and it takes even more perseverance from you to see
(24:54):
through that person you know is on the inside like
you are, Like I know they are in there. If
just for one minute, they can stop using and live
a new way of life. And at the end of
the day, stigma only has power if we remain silent.
Because I think the more we talk about addiction, this
podcast is the most important podcast in the country in
(25:17):
my opinion. There's a lot of bullshit out there, a
lot of stuff that will keep you sick. The politics,
the crap talk. This is real talk. Millions and millions
and millions of people are dealing with addiction. It is
tearing families up. So the more we speak and live
our truth and treat people like we want to be treated,
(25:37):
the weaker the stigma gets matt because recovery is hard
enough without the way to the shame.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Fuck.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
I've worked hard for my recovery. The past four years
going on five years have been battle tested. So you know,
let's live our truth. Let's lift people up and share
the supporting Sobriety podcast everywhere you go.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Yeah, this is a personal thing and I'm not going
to put the Z on anybody else. But the only
time that I have used terms like drunk or crackhead
or potthead or anything like that is when I was
trying to hurt somebody and cover up something of myself.
And that's a big thing recovery has taught me. And
I'm not saying anybody else. It's like that my story
is mine and yours is yours. But it's something to
(26:18):
think about in a sense of why do we still
carry these stigmas of addiction? Why do we not believe
in the disease of addiction? And a lot of times
that's because we do it because we are vulnerable. We
do it because we don't want to admit something, and
that that was very much a situation for me. You know,
when I told this story about getting my hair cut
(26:40):
dad and accusing her dad of not doing enough to
relieve his alcoholism. I mean that was ignorance and subconsciously
I'm covering something though, because yeah, I was born an alcoholic.
I seriously was, and I it took some time to
perfect my craft, maybe twenty five years or something like that.
Anytime I've deployed this stigma of addiction, I've been trying
(27:01):
to hurt somebody. And that's just for me best way
I am. I'm not saying that's that's you, but it's
something to think about. At least. You can find us
on social x, Instagram, at Sobriety, Underscore pod. You can
find supporting sobriety where you're listening now any major podcast provider.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
We love having you. Please like subscribing, rate and keep
those five star ratings coming. More five star ratings mean
more recovery on your timeline, and recovery looks good everywhere
you go.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
Baby.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
All right, if you need a meeting, I'm going to
one after this. Al Hyphenanon dot org. NA has tremendous
resources NA dot org the suicide Prevention Line. Most major
cities nine eight eight will get you right to the
suicide prevention line, but if you live in a small
rural community, it's one eight hundred two seven three eight
two five five twenty four seven. And remember, when there's breath,
(27:54):
there's hope.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
Thank you for listening to the Supporting Sobriety podcast
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