January 26, 2023 • 13 mins
Meet Kate Jenkins: Australia’s Sex Discrimination Commissioner, a member of the Australian Human Rights Commission and the Play by the Rules Co-Chair. Her mission is to advance gender equality — in politics, the corporate sphere, public service bodies like the army or police, universities or sports. This year, she is also an Ambassador for the FIFA 2023 Women’s World Cup. She sat down for a chat with Sam Koslowski about how to improve diversity in men's sport, whether a Pride Hub should exist in 50 years' time, and how politics and sport speak to one another.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
The time for talking is over.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
The match clock showing four hours and twelve minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Dabooms curiosits method to.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
About that. We're coming up the lines. What's gone? Look
the urcious? That is a rat. Hello and welcome to
another episode of Out in the Open. My name is
Sam Kazlowski and this is a project between The Australian Open,
(00:34):
The Daily OS and MasterCard. Today's guest is Australia's Sex
Discrimination Commissioner, Kate Jenkins. She's a member of the Australian
Human Rights Commission and the Play by the Rules co Chair.
Kate's purpose is to advance gender equality and that's consistent
with the Sex Discrimination Act and the Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. It is
(00:58):
no small task. Years Kate has led several high profile projects.
That includes actions to implement the Respect at Work Inquiry recommendations,
the Australian Human Rights Commissions, projects on cultural reform within
the Defense Force, the Federal Police and the Border Force,
and some significant reviews of the Australian Parliament, universities and
(01:18):
even Australian gymnastics. If that all wasn't enough, she's also
an ambassador for the FIFA twenty twenty three Women's World Cup.
It was an honor to have her join me in
the Mastercub Pride Hub for a chat. Here's that discussion.
Commissioner Kate Jenkins, thank you so much for joining us
at the Pride Hub here at the Australian Open. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
It's a real pleasure being here.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What have you done today? What have you enjoyed today?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Actually I haven't got into the tennis. I've been walking
around with Tennis Australia looking at all the inclusion activities.
The I did an Indigenous walk to look at the
news of the local area. We looked at the all
abilities sort of function and different events and activities. We've
looked at the LGBTI sort of locations, the glam Slam,
(02:07):
and we really just got to see all of those activities.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I was reading a foreword from you in a report
and you say that sport is a human right. What
do you mean by that? Look the.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Sense that sport is something competitive that people just need
to win. At the most delete level, there's only one
or two people who can win the Australian Open. But actually,
as a community, all of us have physical and mental
health needs, and the United Nations recognizes that access to
(02:41):
sport should be something that's available for everyone, and we
know as a community, where better if everyone is able
to access sport. So the reason I've really got involved,
you know, when we're in Australia, is that if you
want to advance human rights, you go to where people are,
and sport is where people are, both participants but also
(03:04):
parents and spectators. We've all kind of got some sort
of connection with sport, and so if you want to
change Australia, you know, you change sport and you've pretty
much changed the country.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
And in some ways sport is often the precursor to
more social change. I mean as well we first see,
you know, incredible representation of First Nations issues and athletes
and voices. It can often be on the sporting field
before politics. Do you find that that is happening with
pride as well?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So I think sport is both at the forefront of
positive change and also the showcase of really the worst
parts of our community. And I think particularly racism has
had a big conversation both about what we can do
positively but what we're not doing well. In terms of pride,
(03:53):
I have I was a Victorian Human Rights Commissioner before
I was a Sex Discrimination Commissioner, and I've always seeing
the huge joy that everyone gets from inclusion, but particularly
LGBTI inclusion. So when I was in Victoria, I was
involved with launching the first globally, the first transgender guidelines,
and I think you probably know that the Human Rights
(04:16):
Commission in twenty nineteen launched our national guidelines on Inclusion
of transgender people in sport. That's a topic that raises
a lot of passion, but the reality is if you
get into clubs, people are so proud, so both from
transgender community how important it is just to feel accepted
and to be able to just exercise the human right
(04:38):
of physical and the mental and community engagement. But most
of the clubs that I've dealt with are just absolutely
delighted to realize they should be including more people, that
it's something that's a positive. So my experience with those
guidelines and how it works in practice is the Australian
community and the sporting community, where their purpose is to
(05:01):
get as many people playing sport as possible. Sure, so
if you can do some things to include people and
their people who feel excluded then that's a real positive.
And those guidelines were really to say, you know, what
there are laws about at those highly competitive top end,
and how we've got great laws on strength, stamina and
(05:24):
physique that allow for the fairness, but in practice, most
people are not at that level. Most people just want
to play footy or soccer or tennis or whatever they
want to play, and clubs can do better.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And that's where a lot of these conversations are playing
out is at that local level, in smaller clubs with
one or two incidents a year that they want to
talk about their membership meetings and that kind of thing.
And that's what I think the guidelines did so well
was break down some quite complicated, you know, legislative suggestions
and big philosophical ideas into here are the five recommendations
(06:01):
for how a club can be more inclusive for trans
athletes and yes, trans fans, transparents, all that kind of stuff.
It was really a fascinating read, zooming out a little bit.
You work across so many different spheres in society. Sport
is one of them, but you also work across politics
as well. Do you take lessons from a political sphere,
(06:23):
for example, and apply them into a sporting context, does
it transfer over.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, I take lessons from mining and take it to politics.
I take it from politics into sport. I take it
from sport into retail and hospitality. A lot of the
systemic issues we face in our community, including of abuse
and harassment, are of similar nature, even though they work differently.
(06:48):
I work with defense and police and border force. So
these are organizations and if you start saying you in
defense are doing this wrong. But if you can give
an example from another industry, and sport is always my
winner industry, really those agencies suddenly first of all, realize
systemic issues, aren't you know, kind of just about them.
(07:10):
But secondly, everyone can understand the sport. So when I
did the review of Parliament, one of the most interesting
conversations because it's got a lot of things that are
similar to sport. It's high profile, it's competitive, people really
want to get in there. It's under resource, but there's
high expectations.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It's combative, so it's combative.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
There's a whole lot of things going on, and the
competition you know, you think of opposition, but actually within
political parties, people if you want to be prime minister,
you know you are competing against your peers.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Sport analogies are used all the time, so and.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
There are some systemic things that drive both positive but
also misconducts. So abusive power is one of the key problems.
Abusive power and lack of accountability, and for me, gender
inequality and lack of diversity are all drivers of things
like bullying, harassment, misconduct. You put that into a sporting
(08:08):
environment and the conversation has been happening in the tennis.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
You look at.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Coaches and the power coaches have over athletes. And then
if you think of we did a review of gymnastics,
those little kids, their parents' hopes and dreams are that
their child will go to the Olympics. The power a
coach has over whether that child will even get the
coaching to get into the team. The power dynamic is
(08:34):
pretty pretty risky. Really, We've had a good conversation about
tennis and coaches and their relationships with athletes. So pam
drivers coming out talking about that that is a real issue.
So sport has particular power dynamics and in an Australian
(08:55):
psyche that desire to get to the top, and we
can learn both in sport. We can do definitely do
better with kids and all the way through. But actually
similar things play out in a mining company with all
men at the top. In parliament where the people hold
the power often are white and glow men rather than
(09:15):
diverse communities. And our solution, which is why inclusion isn't
just the nice thing to do, is broader diversity creates
better protections against abuse. So more people with diverse experience,
including LGBTI people in decision making roles and in the conversation,
(09:38):
the more you're going to know the risks, you're going
to identify them, you're going to mitigate them, and the
more you open the opportunities to everyone, not just the
privileged ones who've historically had the opportunities.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So how do we make a tennis environment where a
male would feel comfortable coming out professionally?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, I think there's a real contrast here that we
see in female sport in Australia male sports. I was
on the board of a football team Carlton, and when
we first got the women's team, it wasn't who's the
one woman, it was actually a lot of these players,
lesbian players and non binary as well. I think there
(10:21):
is still in society such stigma about men identifying in
non heterosexual ways and also transgender, you know, men who
come out as transgender women. We just need to keep
pushing towards that. And it's not I really welcome those
(10:46):
athletes who do come out, but my purpose and aim
is to not make it such a demand on athletes
to do that. We as a community need to stop
demanding individuals and the price that they have to pay.
We need to, you know, kind of go on that
ride with them.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Casey de Laquais said a beautiful thing earlier this week
when I was chanting to her. She said, we just
need one as after there's one, then there's two. Enough,
there's two, then there's three. And I thought that when
it boils down to it, that's actually as complicated as
it needs to.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I feel like if we could get three rather than
have to go one two, because that I mean for
women as well. You know, you do need the pioneers
and they do need to be really resilient.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And it is tough.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, but if we can get more than one, it's
that much easier. So I'll go with Casey. I would
go with Casey every time. But I think there's a
reason why that one, that first one. It's much harder
for them, definitely.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Last question from me, and I've been asking everyone this
question and gotten some really fascinating answers. Do you think
there should be a pride hub and the Pride Day
at sporting tournaments in fifty years time.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
In fifty years time, I hope that won't be because
inclusion will be just the normal part of the sport.
But I think tennis Australia has really the glam Slam
the Pride Hub, making this visible, normalized and part of
the mainstream. I still think we need it now. But
my look, my dream and hope is that it is
(12:21):
not a hub because it is the whole. It is
the whole competition and that inclusion and that welcomeness is
there in every part of the or you know, that competition.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Okay, Jenkie, thanks so much for your time. Thank you,
(13:03):
b
The time for talking is over.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
The match clock showing four hours and twelve minutes.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Dabooms curiosits method to.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
About that. We're coming up the lines. What's gone? Look
the urcious? That is a rat. Hello and welcome to
another episode of Out in the Open. My name is
Sam Kazlowski and this is a project between The Australian Open,
(00:34):
The Daily OS and MasterCard. Today's guest is Australia's Sex
Discrimination Commissioner, Kate Jenkins. She's a member of the Australian
Human Rights Commission and the Play by the Rules co Chair.
Kate's purpose is to advance gender equality and that's consistent
with the Sex Discrimination Act and the Convention on the
Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. It is
(00:58):
no small task. Years Kate has led several high profile projects.
That includes actions to implement the Respect at Work Inquiry recommendations,
the Australian Human Rights Commissions, projects on cultural reform within
the Defense Force, the Federal Police and the Border Force,
and some significant reviews of the Australian Parliament, universities and
(01:18):
even Australian gymnastics. If that all wasn't enough, she's also
an ambassador for the FIFA twenty twenty three Women's World Cup.
It was an honor to have her join me in
the Mastercub Pride Hub for a chat. Here's that discussion.
Commissioner Kate Jenkins, thank you so much for joining us
at the Pride Hub here at the Australian Open. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
It's a real pleasure being here.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
What have you done today? What have you enjoyed today?
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Actually I haven't got into the tennis. I've been walking
around with Tennis Australia looking at all the inclusion activities.
The I did an Indigenous walk to look at the
news of the local area. We looked at the all
abilities sort of function and different events and activities. We've
looked at the LGBTI sort of locations, the glam Slam,
(02:07):
and we really just got to see all of those activities.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I was reading a foreword from you in a report
and you say that sport is a human right. What
do you mean by that? Look the.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Sense that sport is something competitive that people just need
to win. At the most delete level, there's only one
or two people who can win the Australian Open. But actually,
as a community, all of us have physical and mental
health needs, and the United Nations recognizes that access to
(02:41):
sport should be something that's available for everyone, and we
know as a community, where better if everyone is able
to access sport. So the reason I've really got involved,
you know, when we're in Australia, is that if you
want to advance human rights, you go to where people are,
and sport is where people are, both participants but also
(03:04):
parents and spectators. We've all kind of got some sort
of connection with sport, and so if you want to
change Australia, you know, you change sport and you've pretty
much changed the country.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
And in some ways sport is often the precursor to
more social change. I mean as well we first see,
you know, incredible representation of First Nations issues and athletes
and voices. It can often be on the sporting field
before politics. Do you find that that is happening with
pride as well?
Speaker 1 (03:33):
So I think sport is both at the forefront of
positive change and also the showcase of really the worst
parts of our community. And I think particularly racism has
had a big conversation both about what we can do
positively but what we're not doing well. In terms of pride,
(03:53):
I have I was a Victorian Human Rights Commissioner before
I was a Sex Discrimination Commissioner, and I've always seeing
the huge joy that everyone gets from inclusion, but particularly
LGBTI inclusion. So when I was in Victoria, I was
involved with launching the first globally, the first transgender guidelines,
and I think you probably know that the Human Rights
(04:16):
Commission in twenty nineteen launched our national guidelines on Inclusion
of transgender people in sport. That's a topic that raises
a lot of passion, but the reality is if you
get into clubs, people are so proud, so both from
transgender community how important it is just to feel accepted
and to be able to just exercise the human right
(04:38):
of physical and the mental and community engagement. But most
of the clubs that I've dealt with are just absolutely
delighted to realize they should be including more people, that
it's something that's a positive. So my experience with those
guidelines and how it works in practice is the Australian
community and the sporting community, where their purpose is to
(05:01):
get as many people playing sport as possible. Sure, so
if you can do some things to include people and
their people who feel excluded then that's a real positive.
And those guidelines were really to say, you know, what
there are laws about at those highly competitive top end,
and how we've got great laws on strength, stamina and
(05:24):
physique that allow for the fairness, but in practice, most
people are not at that level. Most people just want
to play footy or soccer or tennis or whatever they
want to play, and clubs can do better.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And that's where a lot of these conversations are playing
out is at that local level, in smaller clubs with
one or two incidents a year that they want to
talk about their membership meetings and that kind of thing.
And that's what I think the guidelines did so well
was break down some quite complicated, you know, legislative suggestions
and big philosophical ideas into here are the five recommendations
(06:01):
for how a club can be more inclusive for trans
athletes and yes, trans fans, transparents, all that kind of stuff.
It was really a fascinating read, zooming out a little bit.
You work across so many different spheres in society. Sport
is one of them, but you also work across politics
as well. Do you take lessons from a political sphere,
(06:23):
for example, and apply them into a sporting context, does
it transfer over.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yes, I take lessons from mining and take it to politics.
I take it from politics into sport. I take it
from sport into retail and hospitality. A lot of the
systemic issues we face in our community, including of abuse
and harassment, are of similar nature, even though they work differently.
(06:48):
I work with defense and police and border force. So
these are organizations and if you start saying you in
defense are doing this wrong. But if you can give
an example from another industry, and sport is always my
winner industry, really those agencies suddenly first of all, realize
systemic issues, aren't you know, kind of just about them.
(07:10):
But secondly, everyone can understand the sport. So when I
did the review of Parliament, one of the most interesting
conversations because it's got a lot of things that are
similar to sport. It's high profile, it's competitive, people really
want to get in there. It's under resource, but there's
high expectations.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
It's combative, so it's combative.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
There's a whole lot of things going on, and the
competition you know, you think of opposition, but actually within
political parties, people if you want to be prime minister,
you know you are competing against your peers.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Sport analogies are used all the time, so and.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
There are some systemic things that drive both positive but
also misconducts. So abusive power is one of the key problems.
Abusive power and lack of accountability, and for me, gender
inequality and lack of diversity are all drivers of things
like bullying, harassment, misconduct. You put that into a sporting
(08:08):
environment and the conversation has been happening in the tennis.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
You look at.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Coaches and the power coaches have over athletes. And then
if you think of we did a review of gymnastics,
those little kids, their parents' hopes and dreams are that
their child will go to the Olympics. The power a
coach has over whether that child will even get the
coaching to get into the team. The power dynamic is
(08:34):
pretty pretty risky. Really, We've had a good conversation about
tennis and coaches and their relationships with athletes. So pam
drivers coming out talking about that that is a real issue.
So sport has particular power dynamics and in an Australian
(08:55):
psyche that desire to get to the top, and we
can learn both in sport. We can do definitely do
better with kids and all the way through. But actually
similar things play out in a mining company with all
men at the top. In parliament where the people hold
the power often are white and glow men rather than
(09:15):
diverse communities. And our solution, which is why inclusion isn't
just the nice thing to do, is broader diversity creates
better protections against abuse. So more people with diverse experience,
including LGBTI people in decision making roles and in the conversation,
(09:38):
the more you're going to know the risks, you're going
to identify them, you're going to mitigate them, and the
more you open the opportunities to everyone, not just the
privileged ones who've historically had the opportunities.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So how do we make a tennis environment where a
male would feel comfortable coming out professionally?
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, I think there's a real contrast here that we
see in female sport in Australia male sports. I was
on the board of a football team Carlton, and when
we first got the women's team, it wasn't who's the
one woman, it was actually a lot of these players,
lesbian players and non binary as well. I think there
(10:21):
is still in society such stigma about men identifying in
non heterosexual ways and also transgender, you know, men who
come out as transgender women. We just need to keep
pushing towards that. And it's not I really welcome those
(10:46):
athletes who do come out, but my purpose and aim
is to not make it such a demand on athletes
to do that. We as a community need to stop
demanding individuals and the price that they have to pay.
We need to, you know, kind of go on that
ride with them.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Casey de Laquais said a beautiful thing earlier this week
when I was chanting to her. She said, we just
need one as after there's one, then there's two. Enough,
there's two, then there's three. And I thought that when
it boils down to it, that's actually as complicated as
it needs to.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I feel like if we could get three rather than
have to go one two, because that I mean for
women as well. You know, you do need the pioneers
and they do need to be really resilient.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
And it is tough.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah, but if we can get more than one, it's
that much easier. So I'll go with Casey. I would
go with Casey every time. But I think there's a
reason why that one, that first one. It's much harder
for them, definitely.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Last question from me, and I've been asking everyone this
question and gotten some really fascinating answers. Do you think
there should be a pride hub and the Pride Day
at sporting tournaments in fifty years time.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
In fifty years time, I hope that won't be because
inclusion will be just the normal part of the sport.
But I think tennis Australia has really the glam Slam
the Pride Hub, making this visible, normalized and part of
the mainstream. I still think we need it now. But
my look, my dream and hope is that it is
(12:21):
not a hub because it is the whole. It is
the whole competition and that inclusion and that welcomeness is
there in every part of the or you know, that competition.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Okay, Jenkie, thanks so much for your time. Thank you,
(13:03):
b
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