April 29, 2024 • 20 mins
You'd be hard-pressed to find someone with more passion for tennis than Paul McNamee, a Davis Cup and Wimbledon champion who later became Australian Open tournament director. Atypically for an Australian, McNamee's favourite surface is clay — a love-affair he documents in his book Welcome to the Dance. Matt and Viv sit down with McNamee to discuss the nation's relationship with clay, his favourite clay-courts around the world, and who he most loves watching compete on the surface today.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the sit Down.
I'm Matt Trolope, a writer at ozova dot com and
I'm joined by my colleague Australian Tennis Magazines Vive Christy Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Vib Hey, Matt.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Great to be here with you for another week.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yes, and thank you for setting up this week's interview
that we have with an Australian tennis legend turned administrator
who's also written a book about clay court tennis. Tell
us who I've got on this week.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yeah, So this week we chat with Paul McNamee, who
is the author of the book Welcome to the Dance.
And for anyone who has never quite appreciated the beauty
and the romanticism of competing on a clay court, this
is a great lesson. You'll learn a lot about the
most beautiful clay courts in the world and also about
why clay is such an important surface for learning tennis.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And you'd interviewed Paul a couple of times before, but
I'd never met him or interviewing before. I just remember
him in growing up in my childhood as the Australian
Open tournament director. So it was fantastic to get an
opportunity to chat to him this week, and here it is.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Paul, thank you for joining us on the sit down.
You're joining us during the clay court season, clearly a
season that you came to love so much so that
it became a topic of your book. Welcome to the dance.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Welcome to the dance. That's right, the clay court season.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Welcome to the clay court season Europe, which is kind
of the epicenter of it all. And the dance is
about how do you make a tennis ball dance? And
when the dancer meets the dance, that's where you really
get the flow and really get the beautiful part of
the sport. So I really think there's inherent beauty in
the clay court game, and if you're a master of
(01:40):
that art, then you can make a tennis ball dance,
as we've seen Raffa do of course, and the young
version in al Karez and all of the other great players.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So you make it sound like an absolute love affair,
but you didn't always have such a love of clay.
Describe your first experience of competing on clay.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
My first experience was actually in qualifying at Roland garral
So in the first round because I played on Onto
car Here and Shale in the UK, but I never
played on European clay. I was only eighteen years of age.
I got into qualifying, went over there. I was the
number one junior in Australia, had won the juniors in
the Australian Open, so I was.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thinking I was pretty good.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
I hadn't played on clay, but he I can servant
BALI I've got my stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And I played a forty one year old guy.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
From Bolivia who I thought, well, you know, he's probably
I can't clay, but you know, if I'm in trouble,
I can beat him on fitness and speed because I'm
only eighteen, I'm quick, et cetera, et cetera. And the
first set he just gave me a lesson. I thought, wow,
I mean he was giving me angles drop shots. I
didn't know I was doing so then I thought the
second set, I'll just hit every ball back and make
(02:46):
sure that it's a war of attrition and I'm going
to win on a fitness.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, then he just played the angles a.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Drop shot really quickly when I wasn't expecting it. If
I try to play one on him, he seemed expecting
and I lost six one, six two, and I just
I was humiliated. I walked off with my tail between
my legs and I just couldn't believe what a different
experience it was. The other odd thing about that match,
it was actually on court Philip chatrias court Central at
Roland Garralds, which for qualifyings extraordinary that they were using
(03:15):
center court, but they were, and I thought, you know,
it was such a vast court. It's even bigger than
rod labor Arena, the surface area. So I can honestly
I say I was disrobed out there. It felt naked,
basically like he is someone who has no idea and humiliated.
And as I walked off that court, I remember thinking,
you know, I wonder if if I will ever have
(03:38):
a better feeling than this. So I stayed around in Paris.
I didn't run back to England. I you know, I
you know, my eyes are wide open, and just to
hold the Champs Notre Dame, the the fashion of Paris,
the cafes are open, and and and and even the
lanterns and the and the street names in the blue riding.
(03:58):
I mean, it was such an amazing experience for my
virginized basically to see a city like this, and I
stayed in What's the Great Players. Rosa was still playing
in the Great Aussies. And also Nastasi was the King
of Europe that year he'd won Monticolor. He had one Rome,
the favorite in Paris. So I went and watched him
play on Court Central it was called at the time,
(04:20):
and he was playing a German guy and just completely
giving him a lesson. And the thing I noticed was
how easy it was from he was completely in control,
which is the complete antithesis of what I was, completely
not in control and no idea what to do, and
whatever his opponent seemed to do, he seemed to have
the answer effortlessly, and I was just amazed by his
(04:41):
effortless flow.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
And he was in the zone.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
And he went on one Paris that year in the
French Open, was number one in the world. He didn't
I don't think he lost a set that year. And
I remember I was I was going in the train back,
you know, back to get the ferry back to London.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I remember, as I was leaving Paris, I was just thinking, I.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Wonder if I will ever have that feeling of that
nestazi of knowing what I'm doing on a clay court
and to.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Experience just a taste of what he was experiencing.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
And it was seven long years before I ever got
back to that cenate court. I'd played on a lot
of the great status four Italica, my debut in Davis Cup,
et cetera, et cetera, but I hadn't played on that
center court at roll and Girl.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Still.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
I played John McEnroe seven years later at the third
round of the French Open, and I'm playing pretty well.
I'm top fifty now, so I'm pretty good player. He's
number two in the world about to become number one,
and you know, he.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Knew he'd stuffed John. I mean, he was a bloody
good player.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So I thought, but you know, it's not his best surface.
It's my best surface. Now, I think I've got a
chance to win a be competitive maybe when it sat,
you know, I lost the tiebreak first, win the tie
break in the second I'm in the match, and then
it went for over four hours of match, and it
was the type break you know. In the fourth set,
and I was up four to and I had a
(06:03):
winner passed John and I saw his head just shake,
you know, and he realized he was done. And I
won that tiebreak one in four tiebreaks, and so I'm
leaving the court.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Crowd went crazy. He didn't like John.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
He's a brash American et cetera, et cetera. You know,
And as I'm leaving the court, you'd think I'd be
thinking about, you know, just being number two in the world.
My rakings going, oh, good, prize money, et cetera, et cetera.
But no, I was just thinking about the feeling I
had as an eighteen year old having no clue about
life really and about where I was going, and would
(06:36):
I one day know what I'm doing?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And that's sense of fulfillment.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I've never had anything professionally as much as that in
my life. Then I had that moment when I walked
off that court.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
A major premise of your book, of course, is that
by mastering clay, you can master all surfaces.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Why is that the case?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, that's that's a little controversial and probably a little
upsetting for the fast court player who would want to
challenge that because they think, well, just because I'm a
ser valier, it doesn't mean that I don't know what
I'm doing. Look now, and look the San frances and
all those guys, the Beckers and all those guys Cashi,
et cetera, et cetera. I'm not saying they weren't great players,
(07:16):
but I do think there's a gap in your knowledge
if you can kind of get away with serve volting
on any court because you don't really have to learn
the awcoord game.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I mean, if you can serve boli that packash, why.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Didn't need to learn how to be a greade all
around player.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So I kind of get that, but we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Kind of more of a deeper Eastern look at this
and what is what is the holistic view of the sport?
And I think that having been able to go through
those seven years of learning an art that I didn't have,
it does help a lot, I think for your your
holistic approach to the game, and then when you retire
and you're coaching, because you've gone through that whole process
(07:58):
and everybody has different strengths and weaknesses in their game
and as a coach, you need to match that with
the surface that they're playing. And so I'm not a
great fan of players who are not good on clay.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You described earlier that you learned from watching the Stasi,
and you also in your book you talk about beyond Borg.
More recently, we've had, of course Rafael Nadal, who are
some of the other great players that provide lessons in
how to compete on a clay court.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, Theo Rafa and beyond Borg far and away the
two mass grand masters. We can call them over of
chess because clay's chess at the end of the day,
hardcourt is drafts. I mean they're quite different games. One
is linear and one is angular. One has nuances, one
does not. So clay court is a chess board. So
the grand masters are Raphae, Nadal and beyond Borg. Next
(08:52):
in line will be Carlos Acaraz. How it was almost Americle.
He didn't win the French last year and he will
win it this year. I mean unless something amazing happens.
He's that good. This guy on clay, right, this guy
is the real deal. He's got it all. He could
win ten rolling Garross's I mean, we're not saying fourteen
like Rafa, but he's for me, he's far and away
(09:13):
the best player on clay. So right now, so I
you know, the last few years I've been rolling gross.
I go and watch Elk Grass because I just it
brings me joy to see a guy doing when he's
doing the drop shots, the angles, the mixing of the
power with the venesse, his all court mastery. Grew up
in Spain. He he's not linear. Janisen is linear, great play,
(09:34):
but linear our Gras is not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
There's a difference.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You've said a lot a lot of things that related
to chats we've had recently with other people, particularly talking
about Clay. I don't think Todd Woodbridge will be unhappy
with me saying this, but he said when he was
developing his game that he wanted to play in a
way that would lead to success at Wimbledon, because Australians
grew up obviously with that connection with Wimbledon.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
He's a window.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah yeah, grass court and and so he kind of said, well,
I want the shots that will lead to success at Wimbledon.
Even maybe his game was more suited to Clay as
a teenager, he wanted success at Wimbledon. But we vive
and I spoke to Sam Stowsa. Was it last week
or the week before, and she said that when she
moved into commentary for Channel nine. She just says clay
(10:18):
for her as just the one. She just loves watching it,
she loves the strategy. She said, all the things that
you said, and how like beautiful clay court tennis is
to watch and I just that is not as much
of the Australian perspective. You and Sam seem a bit
distinct in that you love clay court tennis and Roland Garross,
whereas a lot of Australians remember ASHBARTI used to say,
one more week on clay is a week closer to grass,
(10:39):
Like there's that in Australia and it was their first slam. Yeah,
Australians haven't traditionally, you say on the back of your book,
we don't traditionally play pay as much attention to clay
court tennis.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Why is that? Why?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Why are more Australians captivated by it?
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Will we have a deep, I guess gap in our
history in the fact that we don't have great clay
courts in Australia. And in fact there's a guy called
more Young and Melbourne right now is converting onto car
into real European clay. This has never happened in one
hundred and over one hundred years. So we grew up
on onto car But the thing is that they're an
(11:11):
inferior form of clay.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
The difference clay is from the.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Ground onto cars from crush rock, so there's a difference,
you see. So it's it's not as smooth, it doesn't
have the base, it's it's it's just a very inferior
clay court you get bad bounces. In Europe you rarely
get a bad bounce. It's much finer the surface. American
clay is also very good, so we have a gap.
And of course as soon as where it gets better,
(11:35):
we start playing with grass and all of country Australia
was basically grass or ashfelt so and a lot of
our champions came from from the bush rod labor and
all the greats came from Roy Emerson, et cetera, et cetera.
So the rest of the world grows up on claim
we don't, so we've got to have this catch up.
We don't have that in our background, so we have
to learn how to play on clay. So and it
takes at least five years to do that, and a
(11:56):
lot of players, you know, Patcashi included. We're not prepared
to do that as soon as they're out of the
French straight to grasp, you know, even back in a
play on a cow. Paddy could play on a cricket
oval to get ready for Wimbledon.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
But and even upine.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
I mean that was hard for me when I went
first calling the score in French the first time I
went there. You know what, no, I mean, Gab said
in Mats six two six one, I got that.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
How pleased have you been to see clay courts appearing
in academies and certain clubs throughout Australia?
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Very happy ten Australia really drove that. I mean I
jumped up board myself in with the West Australian Student
Sport when I was helping them, I put in a
help put in two heart true American clay courts into Perth,
which was great. They've never been a clay court in Perth,
I mean ever, it's just over there.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah yeah, but they've never.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Had a Davis Cup representative till Matt Epton came along, right,
you know, so first time, so I think it's kind
of linked. So I really wanted to have clay over there,
so I help with that and then Tennis astral did
a really good job putting in clay courts here in
Melbourne Park. It was an amazing development. And when I
came down to help the Victorian juniors here, I would
only go on the clay court.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You mentioned the eighty two Australian Open semi final, but
then hearing you talk about beating McEnroe eighty French Open
and how that was when you felt the most control.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah on court?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Would you say that making the fourth round of that
Roland Garross having beaten the world number two was a
bigger career highlight for you than the semis?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Now, the semis of a slam you got to go
with because the semis a semi.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I mean, you know the slams and slams.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
But no, I didn't have the joy playing on grass
or hardcore that I had on clay. So when you know,
I won't set foot on a hardcore now, I mean
if I'm coaching the straight up, but I'll set foot
on it.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Okay, you got it. I got to get some balls,
but I.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Won't set foot on it because I don't get the
joy out of it that I get on You know,
when I coach you moment I won't coach, will not
coach on a hardcourt.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I'll go to clay because that's where you learn the
game as we learn to develop your game.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
So juniors out there, get on clay if you want
to be a player, I mean, and once you learn
all those skills, it will transfer to every surface. There's
no problem playing on any court. Once you know how
to play in clay. The reverse is not true, okay,
And that goes back to the original question, because you
don't learn the nuances of soublities. You don't know how
to play chess. You know how to play drafts. Big difference.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You've played on some of the world's most beautiful clay courts.
What are some of your favorites.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Well, yeah, Monty Carlo is not bad. You know where
it's located. It's right overlooking the Mediterranean, which is so
the coaches which is blue. Obviously, the clubhouse just sits
on the cliffs, overlooking center court, overlooking the Mediterranean. And
I think the greatest dining experience you can have is
to sit on the terrace in Monte Carlo, the white tablecloths,
(14:41):
the way is dressed impeccably, and have a meal overlooking
Center Court overlooking the Mediterranean. I took my wife there
last year for the first time. You know, we went there,
and you know, it's just something you've got to tick
off on your bucket list if you like. You know,
it doesn't and in tournament time you have trouble getting
a table, but the rest of the year, no, and
(15:01):
you know, and dropped my name, but.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, and look, Mack and I won the doubles.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
There, which was great, and you know our names on
the marble. It's in marble there at Monte Carlo Country Club,
which is just a beautiful, beautiful place. It's the headquarters
of the ATP in Europe, so you know, you can
be at lunch there and sits apass and Paula Bardosa
on the next table, and that's any time of the year. Look,
(15:27):
it's it's a pretty cool place. So that's that's that one.
I mean, rolling gross Obviously, Court Central is amazing because
that's the mecca.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Of clay court tennis.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Then you've got Court Pierre Trangel in Rhyme, which is
the old Senate court, which is where I made my
David's Cup debut against Adreno Pernard, who won the French
on that court, which is now not because they built
a new centate court the old Senate court they took.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
The top of it. I was going to say it's
quite small.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah, well they've got the statues all around which were
mid level, and now it's just the most beautiful outside.
It's the most beautiful, non sense to court in the world.
There is no doubt about that. It is just so amazing.
Of course you're in Rome and da da da dada.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
You know, it's just a pleasure. And I mean, I
love it.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I loved playing on that court, and I love it
when I'm coaching a player that's playing on that court,
and it's it's just very very special.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Then you get the little other, the other little gems
around the world.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I mean, I was on holidays with my family and
in Croatia and in the island of Do they have
tennis cours, and I'm not sure that maybe they're up
the hill. I think there is, you know, so I
just go up with my son, he's only eight years old,
take the rackets, all the courts, the lock. There's nobody there,
but this place is overlooking the I said the Adriatic
(16:40):
i'ld stand corrected, but I think the I mean, this
club is just sitting on a hell no one there,
but all the gates are. But I know from when
I was a kid. You know, if there's eight courts
and they're all supposed to be locked, you check every lock.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
There's normally one gate.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
That's going to be open, right and sure enough, sure
I think it was caught five, you know, sure enough
once and we go in, we go rackets, balls, then
we go and play with this beautiful view.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So this is another little gem that pops up.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The Rockets Club in Dusseldorf, where the old Nations Cup
was a World Team Cup, was I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Just a beautiful center cord.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
It was so amazing that this tree that had been
there one hundred and fifty years that overlook the court,
and they built the grand stand around the tree because
they didn't want to lose a tree.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So that's really green behavior. And it's such a beautiful setting,
you know. So these are examples.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
So to be honest, any clay court is beautiful in itself.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's intrinsically beautiful.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
They do sound particularly beautiful though.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Especially yea and the beautiful, rich, rich color, the red color,
and the way you can slide.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So you can't slide on hardcourt. So you're missing you're
missing something.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
I mean, you can plant on a clay court and
rip a ball if you want to slide plant play
on hardcore your plan and play you run through the ball, whatever,
But you can't slide on a hardcore I mean Jockovich
and you know Sam Kim class is doing little slides right,
but you can't do that beautiful long slide where you
complete it plant shit, switch your power from the from
the planet's leg to the other one and be off
(18:09):
to the next shot like Raffa does. I mean he
finishes his slide at the very moment he transfers his
way to rip the ball and then his fourhand swing
waiting for the next one.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I mean, it's that's beauty. Okay, this is just beauty.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So you've gotten into the weeds of kind of like, yeah,
moving on clay and kind of how the game Well,
I guess there there've always been tenants of clay cor tennis,
but since you played and you watch clay called tennis,
now has it evolved? Like is it different now competing
on clay?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Yeah, it is different now because of the equipment, because
you can generate so much power that you can hit
winners from anywhere else in the court. In the old days,
you have to work much harder to win a point
on clay because it was harder to hit a winner
because the rackets, especially in the wood racket here, you
just couldn't hit winners right with Borg, I mean it
was very, very tough, so it was more of a
war of attrition. But now you look at al Groz,
(18:54):
he can or Raffa, they can hit a winner from anywhere,
which is amazing. So it is it's a faster form
of the game. So I find it by far the
most interesting to watch is clay called tennis, because it's
not as slow as it used to be because the
technology has made the points a lot quicker and in fact,
the average point on clay now, I mean Rafa's point.
(19:16):
Interesting stat with Rafa is when you play him, his
points are a shorter on clay than on other surfaces.
And you might ask why, Well, the reason is is
because his forehand is such a weapon on clay that
you live in such fear of once he gets to forehand,
he's going to take control of the point that you
have to go for something very quickly in the point
(19:36):
to try and end it because he's going to strangle
you with his forehand, because he's so dominant in the end.
On clay the best shot wins, So in the end
Nadal wins because he's got the best shot in the
history of the game, which is his forehand. There is
no better shot in the history of tennis. That's why
he's won forteene roll in garrossis sho I write him off.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Don't write Rafa off, who is kind of returning to
form this week in Madrid.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, it certainly is.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I loved hearing Paul talk about the past, present and
future greats of clay court tennis.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You're right, and it was such an in depth chat
that we'll actually bring you a part two of our
chat with mcnamie on a later date on the sit
Down and we'll be back again next Monday. But in
the meantime, you can listen to John and the Teen
this Thursday on the Aoshow Weekly.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Details for how to contact us are in the show notes,
and please remember subscribe, rate and review.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
See you next week, Bib, look.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Forward to it.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Matt
Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of the sit Down.
I'm Matt Trolope, a writer at ozova dot com and
I'm joined by my colleague Australian Tennis Magazines Vive Christy Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Vib Hey, Matt.
Speaker 3 (00:11):
Great to be here with you for another week.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Yes, and thank you for setting up this week's interview
that we have with an Australian tennis legend turned administrator
who's also written a book about clay court tennis. Tell
us who I've got on this week.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Yeah, So this week we chat with Paul McNamee, who
is the author of the book Welcome to the Dance.
And for anyone who has never quite appreciated the beauty
and the romanticism of competing on a clay court, this
is a great lesson. You'll learn a lot about the
most beautiful clay courts in the world and also about
why clay is such an important surface for learning tennis.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
And you'd interviewed Paul a couple of times before, but
I'd never met him or interviewing before. I just remember
him in growing up in my childhood as the Australian
Open tournament director. So it was fantastic to get an
opportunity to chat to him this week, and here it is.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Paul, thank you for joining us on the sit down.
You're joining us during the clay court season, clearly a
season that you came to love so much so that
it became a topic of your book. Welcome to the dance.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Welcome to the dance. That's right, the clay court season.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Welcome to the clay court season Europe, which is kind
of the epicenter of it all. And the dance is
about how do you make a tennis ball dance? And
when the dancer meets the dance, that's where you really
get the flow and really get the beautiful part of
the sport. So I really think there's inherent beauty in
the clay court game, and if you're a master of
(01:40):
that art, then you can make a tennis ball dance,
as we've seen Raffa do of course, and the young
version in al Karez and all of the other great players.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So you make it sound like an absolute love affair,
but you didn't always have such a love of clay.
Describe your first experience of competing on clay.
Speaker 4 (02:02):
My first experience was actually in qualifying at Roland garral
So in the first round because I played on Onto
car Here and Shale in the UK, but I never
played on European clay. I was only eighteen years of age.
I got into qualifying, went over there. I was the
number one junior in Australia, had won the juniors in
the Australian Open, so I was.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Thinking I was pretty good.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
I hadn't played on clay, but he I can servant
BALI I've got my stuff.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And I played a forty one year old guy.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
From Bolivia who I thought, well, you know, he's probably
I can't clay, but you know, if I'm in trouble,
I can beat him on fitness and speed because I'm
only eighteen, I'm quick, et cetera, et cetera. And the
first set he just gave me a lesson. I thought, wow,
I mean he was giving me angles drop shots. I
didn't know I was doing so then I thought the
second set, I'll just hit every ball back and make
(02:46):
sure that it's a war of attrition and I'm going
to win on a fitness.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, then he just played the angles a.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Drop shot really quickly when I wasn't expecting it. If
I try to play one on him, he seemed expecting
and I lost six one, six two, and I just
I was humiliated. I walked off with my tail between
my legs and I just couldn't believe what a different
experience it was. The other odd thing about that match,
it was actually on court Philip chatrias court Central at
Roland Garralds, which for qualifyings extraordinary that they were using
(03:15):
center court, but they were, and I thought, you know,
it was such a vast court. It's even bigger than
rod labor Arena, the surface area. So I can honestly
I say I was disrobed out there. It felt naked,
basically like he is someone who has no idea and humiliated.
And as I walked off that court, I remember thinking,
you know, I wonder if if I will ever have
(03:38):
a better feeling than this. So I stayed around in Paris.
I didn't run back to England. I you know, I
you know, my eyes are wide open, and just to
hold the Champs Notre Dame, the the fashion of Paris,
the cafes are open, and and and and even the
lanterns and the and the street names in the blue riding.
(03:58):
I mean, it was such an amazing experience for my
virginized basically to see a city like this, and I
stayed in What's the Great Players. Rosa was still playing
in the Great Aussies. And also Nastasi was the King
of Europe that year he'd won Monticolor. He had one Rome,
the favorite in Paris. So I went and watched him
play on Court Central it was called at the time,
(04:20):
and he was playing a German guy and just completely
giving him a lesson. And the thing I noticed was
how easy it was from he was completely in control,
which is the complete antithesis of what I was, completely
not in control and no idea what to do, and
whatever his opponent seemed to do, he seemed to have
the answer effortlessly, and I was just amazed by his
(04:41):
effortless flow.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
And he was in the zone.
Speaker 4 (04:45):
And he went on one Paris that year in the
French Open, was number one in the world. He didn't
I don't think he lost a set that year. And
I remember I was I was going in the train back,
you know, back to get the ferry back to London.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
I remember, as I was leaving Paris, I was just thinking, I.
Speaker 4 (05:01):
Wonder if I will ever have that feeling of that
nestazi of knowing what I'm doing on a clay court
and to.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Experience just a taste of what he was experiencing.
Speaker 4 (05:10):
And it was seven long years before I ever got
back to that cenate court. I'd played on a lot
of the great status four Italica, my debut in Davis Cup,
et cetera, et cetera, but I hadn't played on that
center court at roll and Girl.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Still.
Speaker 4 (05:23):
I played John McEnroe seven years later at the third
round of the French Open, and I'm playing pretty well.
I'm top fifty now, so I'm pretty good player. He's
number two in the world about to become number one,
and you know, he.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Knew he'd stuffed John. I mean, he was a bloody
good player.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
So I thought, but you know, it's not his best surface.
It's my best surface. Now, I think I've got a
chance to win a be competitive maybe when it sat,
you know, I lost the tiebreak first, win the tie
break in the second I'm in the match, and then
it went for over four hours of match, and it
was the type break you know. In the fourth set,
and I was up four to and I had a
(06:03):
winner passed John and I saw his head just shake,
you know, and he realized he was done. And I
won that tiebreak one in four tiebreaks, and so I'm
leaving the court.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Crowd went crazy. He didn't like John.
Speaker 4 (06:15):
He's a brash American et cetera, et cetera. You know,
And as I'm leaving the court, you'd think I'd be
thinking about, you know, just being number two in the world.
My rakings going, oh, good, prize money, et cetera, et cetera.
But no, I was just thinking about the feeling I
had as an eighteen year old having no clue about
life really and about where I was going, and would
(06:36):
I one day know what I'm doing?
Speaker 2 (06:37):
And that's sense of fulfillment.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I've never had anything professionally as much as that in
my life. Then I had that moment when I walked
off that court.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Incredible.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
A major premise of your book, of course, is that
by mastering clay, you can master all surfaces.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Why is that the case?
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Yeah, that's that's a little controversial and probably a little
upsetting for the fast court player who would want to
challenge that because they think, well, just because I'm a
ser valier, it doesn't mean that I don't know what
I'm doing. Look now, and look the San frances and
all those guys, the Beckers and all those guys Cashi,
et cetera, et cetera. I'm not saying they weren't great players,
(07:16):
but I do think there's a gap in your knowledge
if you can kind of get away with serve volting
on any court because you don't really have to learn
the awcoord game.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
I mean, if you can serve boli that packash, why.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Didn't need to learn how to be a greade all
around player.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
So I kind of get that, but we're talking about.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
Kind of more of a deeper Eastern look at this
and what is what is the holistic view of the sport?
And I think that having been able to go through
those seven years of learning an art that I didn't have,
it does help a lot, I think for your your
holistic approach to the game, and then when you retire
and you're coaching, because you've gone through that whole process
(07:58):
and everybody has different strengths and weaknesses in their game
and as a coach, you need to match that with
the surface that they're playing. And so I'm not a
great fan of players who are not good on clay.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You described earlier that you learned from watching the Stasi,
and you also in your book you talk about beyond Borg.
More recently, we've had, of course Rafael Nadal, who are
some of the other great players that provide lessons in
how to compete on a clay court.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, Theo Rafa and beyond Borg far and away the
two mass grand masters. We can call them over of
chess because clay's chess at the end of the day,
hardcourt is drafts. I mean they're quite different games. One
is linear and one is angular. One has nuances, one
does not. So clay court is a chess board. So
the grand masters are Raphae, Nadal and beyond Borg. Next
(08:52):
in line will be Carlos Acaraz. How it was almost Americle.
He didn't win the French last year and he will
win it this year. I mean unless something amazing happens.
He's that good. This guy on clay, right, this guy
is the real deal. He's got it all. He could
win ten rolling Garross's I mean, we're not saying fourteen
like Rafa, but he's for me, he's far and away
(09:13):
the best player on clay. So right now, so I
you know, the last few years I've been rolling gross.
I go and watch Elk Grass because I just it
brings me joy to see a guy doing when he's
doing the drop shots, the angles, the mixing of the
power with the venesse, his all court mastery. Grew up
in Spain. He he's not linear. Janisen is linear, great play,
(09:34):
but linear our Gras is not.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
There's a difference.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
You've said a lot a lot of things that related
to chats we've had recently with other people, particularly talking
about Clay. I don't think Todd Woodbridge will be unhappy
with me saying this, but he said when he was
developing his game that he wanted to play in a
way that would lead to success at Wimbledon, because Australians
grew up obviously with that connection with Wimbledon.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
He's a window.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah yeah, grass court and and so he kind of said, well,
I want the shots that will lead to success at Wimbledon.
Even maybe his game was more suited to Clay as
a teenager, he wanted success at Wimbledon. But we vive
and I spoke to Sam Stowsa. Was it last week
or the week before, and she said that when she
moved into commentary for Channel nine. She just says clay
(10:18):
for her as just the one. She just loves watching it,
she loves the strategy. She said, all the things that
you said, and how like beautiful clay court tennis is
to watch and I just that is not as much
of the Australian perspective. You and Sam seem a bit
distinct in that you love clay court tennis and Roland Garross,
whereas a lot of Australians remember ASHBARTI used to say,
one more week on clay is a week closer to grass,
(10:39):
Like there's that in Australia and it was their first slam. Yeah,
Australians haven't traditionally, you say on the back of your book,
we don't traditionally play pay as much attention to clay
court tennis.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Why is that? Why?
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Why are more Australians captivated by it?
Speaker 4 (10:51):
Will we have a deep, I guess gap in our
history in the fact that we don't have great clay
courts in Australia. And in fact there's a guy called
more Young and Melbourne right now is converting onto car
into real European clay. This has never happened in one
hundred and over one hundred years. So we grew up
on onto car But the thing is that they're an
(11:11):
inferior form of clay.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
The difference clay is from the.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
Ground onto cars from crush rock, so there's a difference,
you see. So it's it's not as smooth, it doesn't
have the base, it's it's it's just a very inferior
clay court you get bad bounces. In Europe you rarely
get a bad bounce. It's much finer the surface. American
clay is also very good, so we have a gap.
And of course as soon as where it gets better,
(11:35):
we start playing with grass and all of country Australia
was basically grass or ashfelt so and a lot of
our champions came from from the bush rod labor and
all the greats came from Roy Emerson, et cetera, et cetera.
So the rest of the world grows up on claim
we don't, so we've got to have this catch up.
We don't have that in our background, so we have
to learn how to play on clay. So and it
takes at least five years to do that, and a
(11:56):
lot of players, you know, Patcashi included. We're not prepared
to do that as soon as they're out of the
French straight to grasp, you know, even back in a
play on a cow. Paddy could play on a cricket
oval to get ready for Wimbledon.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
But and even upine.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
I mean that was hard for me when I went
first calling the score in French the first time I
went there. You know what, no, I mean, Gab said
in Mats six two six one, I got that.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
How pleased have you been to see clay courts appearing
in academies and certain clubs throughout Australia?
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Very happy ten Australia really drove that. I mean I
jumped up board myself in with the West Australian Student
Sport when I was helping them, I put in a
help put in two heart true American clay courts into Perth,
which was great. They've never been a clay court in Perth,
I mean ever, it's just over there.
Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah yeah, but they've never.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
Had a Davis Cup representative till Matt Epton came along, right,
you know, so first time, so I think it's kind
of linked. So I really wanted to have clay over there,
so I help with that and then Tennis astral did
a really good job putting in clay courts here in
Melbourne Park. It was an amazing development. And when I
came down to help the Victorian juniors here, I would
only go on the clay court.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You mentioned the eighty two Australian Open semi final, but
then hearing you talk about beating McEnroe eighty French Open
and how that was when you felt the most control.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah on court?
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Would you say that making the fourth round of that
Roland Garross having beaten the world number two was a
bigger career highlight for you than the semis?
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Now, the semis of a slam you got to go
with because the semis a semi.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
I mean, you know the slams and slams.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
But no, I didn't have the joy playing on grass
or hardcore that I had on clay. So when you know,
I won't set foot on a hardcore now, I mean
if I'm coaching the straight up, but I'll set foot
on it.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
Okay, you got it. I got to get some balls,
but I.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Won't set foot on it because I don't get the
joy out of it that I get on You know,
when I coach you moment I won't coach, will not
coach on a hardcourt.
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I'll go to clay because that's where you learn the
game as we learn to develop your game.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
So juniors out there, get on clay if you want
to be a player, I mean, and once you learn
all those skills, it will transfer to every surface. There's
no problem playing on any court. Once you know how
to play in clay. The reverse is not true, okay,
And that goes back to the original question, because you
don't learn the nuances of soublities. You don't know how
to play chess. You know how to play drafts. Big difference.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
You've played on some of the world's most beautiful clay courts.
What are some of your favorites.
Speaker 4 (14:19):
Well, yeah, Monty Carlo is not bad. You know where
it's located. It's right overlooking the Mediterranean, which is so
the coaches which is blue. Obviously, the clubhouse just sits
on the cliffs, overlooking center court, overlooking the Mediterranean. And
I think the greatest dining experience you can have is
to sit on the terrace in Monte Carlo, the white tablecloths,
(14:41):
the way is dressed impeccably, and have a meal overlooking
Center Court overlooking the Mediterranean. I took my wife there
last year for the first time. You know, we went there,
and you know, it's just something you've got to tick
off on your bucket list if you like. You know,
it doesn't and in tournament time you have trouble getting
a table, but the rest of the year, no, and
(15:01):
you know, and dropped my name, but.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, and look, Mack and I won the doubles.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
There, which was great, and you know our names on
the marble. It's in marble there at Monte Carlo Country Club,
which is just a beautiful, beautiful place. It's the headquarters
of the ATP in Europe, so you know, you can
be at lunch there and sits apass and Paula Bardosa
on the next table, and that's any time of the year. Look,
(15:27):
it's it's a pretty cool place. So that's that's that one.
I mean, rolling gross Obviously, Court Central is amazing because
that's the mecca.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Of clay court tennis.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Then you've got Court Pierre Trangel in Rhyme, which is
the old Senate court, which is where I made my
David's Cup debut against Adreno Pernard, who won the French
on that court, which is now not because they built
a new centate court the old Senate court they took.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
The top of it. I was going to say it's
quite small.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Yeah, well they've got the statues all around which were
mid level, and now it's just the most beautiful outside.
It's the most beautiful, non sense to court in the world.
There is no doubt about that. It is just so amazing.
Of course you're in Rome and da da da dada.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
You know, it's just a pleasure. And I mean, I
love it.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I loved playing on that court, and I love it
when I'm coaching a player that's playing on that court,
and it's it's just very very special.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
Then you get the little other, the other little gems
around the world.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
I mean, I was on holidays with my family and
in Croatia and in the island of Do they have
tennis cours, and I'm not sure that maybe they're up
the hill. I think there is, you know, so I
just go up with my son, he's only eight years old,
take the rackets, all the courts, the lock. There's nobody there,
but this place is overlooking the I said the Adriatic
(16:40):
i'ld stand corrected, but I think the I mean, this
club is just sitting on a hell no one there,
but all the gates are. But I know from when
I was a kid. You know, if there's eight courts
and they're all supposed to be locked, you check every lock.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
There's normally one gate.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
That's going to be open, right and sure enough, sure
I think it was caught five, you know, sure enough
once and we go in, we go rackets, balls, then
we go and play with this beautiful view.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
So this is another little gem that pops up.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
The Rockets Club in Dusseldorf, where the old Nations Cup
was a World Team Cup, was I mean.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Just a beautiful center cord.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
It was so amazing that this tree that had been
there one hundred and fifty years that overlook the court,
and they built the grand stand around the tree because
they didn't want to lose a tree.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So that's really green behavior. And it's such a beautiful setting,
you know. So these are examples.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
So to be honest, any clay court is beautiful in itself.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
It's intrinsically beautiful.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
They do sound particularly beautiful though.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Especially yea and the beautiful, rich, rich color, the red color,
and the way you can slide.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
So you can't slide on hardcourt. So you're missing you're
missing something.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
I mean, you can plant on a clay court and
rip a ball if you want to slide plant play
on hardcore your plan and play you run through the ball, whatever,
But you can't slide on a hardcore I mean Jockovich
and you know Sam Kim class is doing little slides right,
but you can't do that beautiful long slide where you
complete it plant shit, switch your power from the from
the planet's leg to the other one and be off
(18:09):
to the next shot like Raffa does. I mean he
finishes his slide at the very moment he transfers his
way to rip the ball and then his fourhand swing
waiting for the next one.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
I mean, it's that's beauty. Okay, this is just beauty.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So you've gotten into the weeds of kind of like, yeah,
moving on clay and kind of how the game Well,
I guess there there've always been tenants of clay cor tennis,
but since you played and you watch clay called tennis,
now has it evolved? Like is it different now competing
on clay?
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Yeah, it is different now because of the equipment, because
you can generate so much power that you can hit
winners from anywhere else in the court. In the old days,
you have to work much harder to win a point
on clay because it was harder to hit a winner
because the rackets, especially in the wood racket here, you
just couldn't hit winners right with Borg, I mean it
was very, very tough, so it was more of a
war of attrition. But now you look at al Groz,
(18:54):
he can or Raffa, they can hit a winner from anywhere,
which is amazing. So it is it's a faster form
of the game. So I find it by far the
most interesting to watch is clay called tennis, because it's
not as slow as it used to be because the
technology has made the points a lot quicker and in fact,
the average point on clay now, I mean Rafa's point.
(19:16):
Interesting stat with Rafa is when you play him, his
points are a shorter on clay than on other surfaces.
And you might ask why, Well, the reason is is
because his forehand is such a weapon on clay that
you live in such fear of once he gets to forehand,
he's going to take control of the point that you
have to go for something very quickly in the point
(19:36):
to try and end it because he's going to strangle
you with his forehand, because he's so dominant in the end.
On clay the best shot wins, So in the end
Nadal wins because he's got the best shot in the
history of the game, which is his forehand. There is
no better shot in the history of tennis. That's why
he's won forteene roll in garrossis sho I write him off.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
Don't write Rafa off, who is kind of returning to
form this week in Madrid.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, it certainly is.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I loved hearing Paul talk about the past, present and
future greats of clay court tennis.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
You're right, and it was such an in depth chat
that we'll actually bring you a part two of our
chat with mcnamie on a later date on the sit
Down and we'll be back again next Monday. But in
the meantime, you can listen to John and the Teen
this Thursday on the Aoshow Weekly.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Details for how to contact us are in the show notes,
and please remember subscribe, rate and review.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
See you next week, Bib, look.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Forward to it.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Matt
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