May 4, 2025 • 57 mins
Jessie Stephens fell in love at work with her boss’s son, Luca Levigne. What started as an office romance turned into a life together, and they now have a daughter, Luna, who is almost two.
Jessie opens up about the spiciness of that early relationship, the reality of prenatal depression, and the pressure to “get everything done” before birth that left her feeling emotionally flat.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ash, did you know that most romances happen in the office.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I hate to break it to you, Matt, but I'm
a happily married man. That but a couple of drinks, Ash, please,
Oh so well.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Today's guest is a Sunday Times best seller broadcaster and
known for her astute opinions on Mamma Mia out loud,
I'm talking about Jesse Stevens. She also happened to find
love in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh, Matt, and not any kind of love ooh. Luca
Levine also happens to be Jesse's boss's son.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh that's gcy. You never know who, what, or where
you'll find the love of your life, Ash.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
That's what makes life so exciting. Certainly it certainly had
a bit of spice to the workplace, that's for sure.
And Jesse spills all the tea.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yes because boiler Alert. Luca and Jesse's romance produced a
beautiful baby girl, little Luna, who is almost two years old.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Jesse also has a bit to share about her experience
of parental depression and how the pressure to get shit
done before she gave birth made her film Numb.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Welcome Back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
I am Maddie.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
J I'm Ash and I am Jesse Stevens. I am
the doting mum. I think I think three.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Lsta Is it anyone else? No, just bust under the table.
This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, it.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Is the bad and the relatable.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And if you've come for advice, Jesse, we do not
give it, not from Ash and myself. However, you are
a very intelligent person, far superior than us simple minded
dad's on the side. Yes, so you I'm sure, please,
I hope give advice if you've got.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Any no pressure.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Well, I've had Ash on a podcast I did before
giving us advice, which one was.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
That it was called the baby Bubble.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I forget the name for a second. Yeah, and we had.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Actually, I'm sure you gave us some advice. You're very wise. Actually, no,
you talked.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
About having a proseectomy. Remember that we asked you all
the details about you for sect me.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
It's very enlightening.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
Thank you for asking me many questions about my penis
and testicles.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Did you fuck the lawyer? The lawyers will be annoyed.
Did you give advice on that episode. No, nothing real,
Jesse did he?
Speaker 5 (02:27):
I think we knew he wasn't an advice guy.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Thanks thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
We always start off going back to what you were
like as a teenager, and I dare say that I
think you would have been someone who would have been
like a ducks of the school.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I was going to pick that too. Actually, yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Not come across as a duck school cryptal. No was
a house captain.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
What's a house captain?
Speaker 5 (02:50):
A house captain, sports, house captain? Yeah, like that, like that.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Claire and I were house captain of yellow yellow house, Yellow.
I know, I didn't feel yellow didn't have the same
Was it called yellow? No, it was called a saint's
name because I went to a Catholic school.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
What's the saint of yellow?
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Praton?
Speaker 6 (03:09):
Oh, we have hours are named after different birds, like.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Like uh.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Magpie.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
No, Rosella is red, Lori seagull. I can't remember the
other one.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Mars is Mitchell house. What color are you in red?
Speaker 5 (03:34):
I knew I was going to say you're in red?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I was red.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
You just just have red energy because red a wise
wins fastest.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Ye ready the fastest.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
No, I was yellow house captain and I was I
was all right. But then in about year eleven, I
thought I would try really hard because I'm really really
competitive and I hate losing.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
So it's like, Okay, I'm going to try my absolute best.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
And I did, and I ended up being ducks with
my My school wasn't selective or anything.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I nailed it.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
We knew that.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I thought that you somehow knew that I was duck
of my school and second in my year.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
One guess that's the this is the first prediction we've
ever got right.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
No, we're always quite what's.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
The prediction for who got second? In my ear?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Are your sister?
Speaker 6 (04:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Yeah, she came second.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
We're actually I didn't know.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
This was a psychic podcast that was very exciting.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Who spearheaded the decision to like, now we knuckle down.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I think it was some twin telepathy ship where we
just looked at each other and we were like, let's
now beat these bitches.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Let's just we'll come together as a team.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
We just studied really hard, and I ended up I
did extension history and I came first in the state
for extension history and Claire came fifth. So we just
put our heads down and we're like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Question, Yeah, all girls school, yep, okay, current debate in
our family co ed all girls thoughts.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
My mum taught it a co for years and years.
Dad teaches it in all boys. I think co ed's
better better for you, Like I I'd like to send
my daughter to a co ed. But the thing about
our school was that it was very kind of It
was a Catholic school, but the schools around us were
very private.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
So a lot of the private boys'.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Schools, you know schools are Woolwich, which is in like
Hunter's Hill, Hunter's Hill. Yeah, but they were all the
fancy boys schools and they all had their tutors and
their you know, fancy applications to go to Cambridge or Oxford.
And that was not our not Our school school was
just you know, it was actually more sporty, which I
wasn't necessarily good at. But yes, Claia and I actually
(05:40):
put our head down and then went to UNI and
got a ridge shop.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Did you ever get in trouble at school and blame
you twin?
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Yes? Okay, perfect, Yes, we did some.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
We definitely did some swapping and excuse me swapping, yes,
because we're identical. But The best trick was it we
played doubles tennis, right, and I am deathly competitive, but
I can't serve to save my life. So we would
do a little sneaky little between games, just a little dance,
(06:10):
and they're just served every time, like I never served.
Same outfit, same hair, same everything, and no one knew.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
You never did anything, like, hey, you're much better at
ancient history, so we're gonna I'll take that test for you. No,
you can't admit to this kind of stuff. This is
very incriminating.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
You could have just pretended to be one student gone
to school.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
I really really well. We used to do that.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
We worked at a golf club for years together, and they,
the golfers, would think we were one really efficient worker
when really we were two sheep workers that were usually
on the phone, like on our phone out the back.
But they were like, you're everywhere. I was like, no, there's.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Two of us.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
How good, it's very very good.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You did very well at school, I'm assuming did very
well at university.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
And not that well at university.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
She's being modest. You end up working at my yeap,
which I have to congratulate, and all the amazing work
that you have done because it is astounding.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
It's a very fun job, very fun.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I want to talk about your now husband, Yes, Luca,
do you remember the moment that he stepped into the
office and you locked eyes with him? Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I remember him starting and there were a few whispers
because we knew that it was our boss, and at
that time it was Maya was my boss, and I
worked closely with her because I was doing a podcast
with her once a week and husband, Jason was a CEO,
So literally Maya and Jason were my bosses. And then
their son came in because he was really lost.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
He'd finished school, didn't know what he was doing and
came in just for a bit of work experience or whatever.
And we were like, oh, we're gonna have to train him.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
And my thing was like he's going to dob on
me when I'm wasting time, Like if I check my phone,
He's going to tell his parents that I'm actually being
a bit lazy, and so we all were on our
behavior around him. But I remember he walked in and
it was like hi, and then we sort of trained
him up in a few things and then before we
knew it.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Like was he good? Was he Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:09):
He was really and that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
I think we all had a little bit of an
assumption about maybe he was going to be entitled and
maybe he was going to walk in and think he
didn't have to do any of the hard work. What
surprised us was that he was humble, he was quiet,
and he was really really hard working. So he he
was very very smart and had, you know, gone so
(08:32):
well at school and was a great writer. Like he
was a really really good writer. So I remember working
with him on that, and then we would go and
get drinks on like a Friday night or whatever after work,
and one of my boss said, he likes someone in
this office, but I don't know who it is because
I don't know why he's going like he's excited for
drinksh Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
That was a giveaway, is it. He'd be like, are
we getting drinks tonight?
Speaker 4 (08:55):
And I was like, oh, looks kan On drinks And
so we thought it was we thought it was somebody else.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
I was just like, yeah, I think he likes Katie.
I reckon, he likes Katie.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
But Katie was already taken, so I think you had
to go for the.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Next At this point, any romantic sparks internally.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
No, no, as anyone said could pick up on it.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
No, we were just really good friends.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And I think we started actually recording a podcast and
he might have been producing it at the time, and
he really I remember Clara and I were writing recaps
at the time.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
It was probably about your season of The Bachelor.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
God, I'm sorry, writing recauts, lots of zooming in on
your face, and Luca would always read it. He'd come
in and be like, I really liked it. I thought
it was funny when you said this, this and this.
Like he just liked our work.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
We'd turn up and pitch every morning. And you know
how when you're at work, you can't pretend to be
someone like you are just yourself.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
It's not like on.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
A Friday or Saturday night when you can you're going
out to dinner and you put on a bit of
a persona. So we got really close and really friendly,
and he really liked true crime podcasts and we'd always share them.
So it was just very very friendly and very slow
after over months and months, and we'd even hang out
on the weekend and stuff, and it was like myself,
my twin sister and him like the three of us
were really really close. Then I think we started hanging
(10:16):
out more just us, and that's when it.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
Got a bit close.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
What was the moment where you thought, oh, my goodness,
he's not just a friend. I think I might like
this guy.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
I remember we went to a friend's like Farewell, and
we were there that night and there was just a
vibe and I thought, I think, like, I am feeling
a bit of a vibe. And then I thought, are
you leaning into this because you think it's risky?
Speaker 5 (10:44):
Like is it a bit for fun?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It's exciting, it's exciting.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
I'm excited because you know you shouldn't, right, it's a
good story. It's like being told not to jump over
the edge of something you kind of and so I.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Was going, beautiful, you might lose.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
A hand exactly, like I had no idea both hands,
who knows.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
And so when I started feeling that, Claire said.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
To me, you know, be really careful because it's good backfire.
We've worked really hard to be here.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
And then if you date in the boss's son, something
goes wrong, like fuck, put the fireworks down. Claire is
just not into it at all, whereas Luca. Luca eventually
I think he called.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
I remember him saying something like I like someone in
the office, and like he did this whole thing, and
then it was like it's you, and it was just
like cute, and then we you and.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Then I wrote, this is so weird.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
But like he came over for the first time, we
watched some really graphic, awful true crime documentary. But that
was like our love language was watching these revolting documentaries.
Once we started seeing each other, it just kind of
went from there. I think he's a very he didn't
want to waste anyone's time, and he's and everyone who
knows him is like, he's not you know, he seems
(12:05):
so much older than he is, and I think that's
why when he started hanging out with my friends, it
wasn't weird because he was just fit in seamlessly.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
He is about six years younger than you.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
He was the eldest child, you know, had two parents
who worked a lot, lots of independence, understood media very well.
Like I don't think he was. He's always been an old,
old man, like more mature than I am.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Had you dated anyone younger, no.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
And I wouldn't even if I would have been on
all the apps at that stage, I wouldn't have dated
anyone one year younger than me, like I would have
had all my dating app set to my age are older,
because I guess there's just a bit of a taboo
about it. And I just thought, Oh, we'd be in
a different stage and we wouldn't have anything in common.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Do you think because you were friends first that it
really helped.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I think that that made a difference, and that I
kind of went, if you're not going to do it
because you're worried about what people are gonna think, think
anyone is actually thinking about.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
You that much, and you could have missed out on something, Yeah, amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
There was someone I worked with who was maybe in
her forties and her husband was six or seven years younger,
and she'd talked about it sometimes and I just went,
this is actually happening all the time, Like there are
age gaps all the time. The older you get, the
less you feel the gap as well. So now he's
in his late twenties and I'm in my mid thirties,
Like it doesn't you don't feel it?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, when you're younger, you're like what, Yeah, I think
about that.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Yeah, And my mates as well in their mid twenties.
They wouldn't have better annihild at dating a twenty year old,
like as in my male friends. I think that that's
not stigmatized. But for women, the idea of dating someone
younger just I don't know, there's definitely.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
A stigma, do you think as well, like because we
always talk about how girls mature faster than Yeah, man,
the expectation is that you want someone at your maturity level,
but if you were friends with him.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
I think the other thing is babies.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
I think that it's like, if you are thinking about
having kids one day, then there's a risk in going
for a man who's younger than you because it's like
by the time you're ready, and then you're getting older
and older. And if he's not ready till he's in
his mid thirties and you want to start there, and
then that's a complication. But I mean the irony of
that is that I know many men in their mid
to late thirties who aren't ready, Like, yeah, I don't
(14:22):
think it's his age dependent.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I mean in their forties is still aren't ready?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yeah, forty is young, Matt young, you're not ready and
you've got two.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, I'm definitely not ready.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Any did you guys have a game plan in terms
of when you guys did cross that line? You have
a relationship for a period, I'm assuming it would have
been secretive. Yeah, did you say this is the point
that we will then announce it, because obviously you don't
want to. You don't announce it, and then you guys
break up and you're like, fuck, we went through all
of that for nothing.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
And I think Lucas has a cautiousness because of what
he's grown up with him having a mum who has
a bit of a profile.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
I think is that he's just kind of reserved.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And so we didn't want to talk about it at
the office when we went, well, it's not it's not relevant.
And weirdly, our work doesn't really have a policy because
it's mostly women. This is not an issue that they've
had because it's there's not a lot of men to
and every man who doesn't to the office leaves the
married or engaged to someone.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
In the right place.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Ply.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
But I remember we're at a cafe like early one
morning before work and someone from sales and I love her,
but she saw us, and she saw Luca lean over
and kissing, and she ran into the office and was like,
I have just seen something and she was yelling at
as like announcing it to her team. And one of
the girls in her team is one of my best
(15:44):
friends from school. So she's sitting there going because she
did know, and she was sitting there and she goes,
Luke just does that. He's a very affectionate person, and
he kisses me on the head.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
And everyone was like, really doesn't sound.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Exactly yea everyone from that moment because I'm assuming your
friend told you.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yes, she told me, and so there were whispers and
then we kind of went all right, we should I
think people in the team started to know, and then
it probably caused a few issues because there were people going,
you know, is there going to be priority for her or.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Like I can start doing half days and yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Say i'd picture story or something, and then that story
got green lip. Then it was sort of like, well,
it's of course her story was green lip. I think, yeah,
the boss's son, Like there was definitely an element of
that which ended up being acknowledged, like sort of nipped
in the bard. And I think that there were there
were different there was a Melbourne office and there was
a Sydney office, and I think there were assumptions about
(16:45):
what was happening and it wasn't necessarily happening. But Luca
and I just went all right, we put our heads
down and we work hard, and no one can take
that away from you. Like if you do good work,
then the work speaks for itself, Like you're not going
to convince people to think something else.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Do you remember the moment you had to tell me?
Speaker 6 (17:05):
So?
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Sort of we were we were hanging out on the
weekend and I remember we went to the beach and
then Luca was like, let's go and get some towels
because we've forgotten towels.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
Let's go to my house and get towels. And I
was like, oh, you forgot I feel like we've been
at my house.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I had my cozy and maybe I didn't have a tower.
That sounds like something I would think of.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Luca, come on to dressed, my guy.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
We're not going to go to your house on the
weekend and get a towel exactly. And then he was like, no,
I don't think my parents are there. And I was like,
all right, his parents aren't there.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
I'll walk in. I walk in, there's my boss.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I'm standing there wanting a towel, hanging out with Luca,
going this is.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Bath so.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
And so I think from that moment, I remember speaking
to me or on the phone and her saying, this
is not going to.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
Cost you a job, like, but don't break my.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Like you've got your position here, you got your role
on the podcast. If you and Luca break up tomorrow,
you're not going to lose your job. Don't worry about that.
Don't let that be a factor.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
H Hopefully she wasn't. Gasline.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, well we don't know.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Do we know, because I never dumped him.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
But yes yet yet Yeah, didn't have any impact. The
letter that Mia had openly written about how tough it
was as a mom to say goodbye to your son.
Had that played on you at all?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
It was funny because I think that she talked about
that on the podcast. And it's always funny because I'm
sitting there like or we've been on the podcast and
she's cried because.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
She's like, my son's moving out, and I'm like, with me.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Dynamic, you know, sometimes we talk about relationships or sex things,
and it's just sitting there with.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Your mother in law and you're like, con't relo.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
It's just like it's the weirdest it's the weirdest dynamic,
but for some reason it totally works.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
So we've just been really, really honest about it.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
And I know that she had a lot of big
feelings even when when I was pregnant, like she was
going to become a grandmother and that's like, and she's
quite She's only in her early fifties, so for her,
she's like, I'm not ready to be an Anna, Like
it's dead. Yeah, very interesting to nut out at work.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So then who spearhead the conversation about when you would
have or when you would try for kids.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Well, I was I would have been happy years before
Luca and we would talk about it and go, all right,
let's say I'm ready at thirty and he's going, I'd
like to wait a couple more years.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Would go, right, let's start.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Trying at thirty one, and then of course you get
to thirty one, you've got a few things on, and
then you get to and then he proposed when we
were overseas, which was really exciting. He would have been
one of the first in his friendship groups to propose?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Can we have the proposal story quickly?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
We were in Martha's vineyard and we were walking along
a beach and Rory Luca was like, let's get a photo,
which was a first He's never won on a photo
in his Whole Life giveaway and Rory Claire's husband was
holding the phone and then Luca knelt down and I
(20:10):
was like, what are you doing, and then realized that
he was filming it and that it was a proposal.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
But I'd had a few a few days before. I'd
picked up his jacket and said.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
It had got a bit cold and put my hands
in the pocket and thought I felt some AirPods. Took
my hands straight back out. But then when Luca saw
me wearing the jacket, he lost his shit and was like,
don't chake my jacket. I was like, whoa, I should break.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Up with him?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
And it turns out that was the ring and I
just didn't notice. So yeah, and then we were engaged
and fell pregnant accidentally, and I discovered one evening when
he was out and he walked in and I had
like half a block of chocolate in my mouth, and
(20:54):
the pregnancy test, just sitting there and he was like, ah,
so it was a bit because I think we had
a wedding date set. I was writing a book, you know,
we were renting a tiny apartment and it.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
Was just like the red time.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah, it was like a shock, but in the moment
we both knew that it was going to be the
right time. But it was a real shock. You go
through some really complicated emotions when it's a shock. I
think it's like it's not as simple as excitement. You
kind of have to recalibrate what the rest of your
life looks like in an hour.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Yeah, confronting.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
Do you remember the time you broke it to me
that she was going to be a grandmother?
Speaker 4 (21:35):
I had Actually we were doing a tour of Out
Loud when I was about eight weeks pregnant, so I
wasn't telling anyone yet. But we went to dinner after
one of the shows and there was wine and Maya
tried to pour me a glass and I said, no, no,
I don't feel like it, and she said, what are
you pregnant? And I was like, it was like, I
can't tell you now that you're a grandmother face.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
I was like, no, I'm just feeling, well, you shouldn't
ask him enough.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
And then a few weeks later I think that we
did it with maybe it was Mother's Day, maybe it
was something, and we gave her a card and it
was like we gave her a card for something, and
she like didn't open it straight away, and we were going,
we think you should open your card, and then she
read it and it must have said to Nana or
(22:22):
something like that, like it had something on it, and
I just remember her face being like, oh my god,
like it was such a shock to her and Jason
like they were not expecting that, because I think when
the wedding was happening, it was like you were assuming
it was going to happen, and they were both like, oh.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
My god, what the hell.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So, yeah, you've spoken quite a lot about the fact
that pregnancy for you was quite difficult for those who
aren't familiar. Why was it so tough?
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Oh, it was a shit shit time. I got.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
I didn't know this, but if you are on anti
anxiety or antidepressants, really any medication then and during pregnancy,
your blood volume increases and it dilutes any medication that
you're on. So suddenly it was like I wasn't on anything.
So I've been on anti anxiety medication for ten years,
and it was like I'd gone off that cold turkey.
So I was probably from I'd say the second I
(23:18):
felt pregnant, I just did not feel like myself. I
felt really weird. I felt foggy, I felt anxious. I
couldn't see the future. And then it got worse and worse.
And I think that there were also environmental factors. I
was working too hard in that I felt as though
my life ended when that baby came out.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
I thought, you'll never work again.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
You've got till that date to do everything you've ever
wanted to do in your career. So I was finishing
a book, I was writing an episode of a television show.
I was recording five podcasts, six podcasts a week.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
I was going to Melbourne every week for the project.
It was out of pat I look back and go.
I was flying at thirty weeks thirty six weeks pregnant
to Melbourne for a day and wondering yeah all the time,
and wondering why.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
My body was just And I got married, moved house,
all of those things while pregnant, and I just tried
to fit too much in and completely burnt out, and
I was, oh, it was like I was underwater, I
was in a dream.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
I couldn't feel anything. I was totally numb.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Were you communicating this to Luke or anybody else?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
He ended up actually contacting my obstetrician and midwife and
just being like, we.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Do something about this problem in the house.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
And they were fantastic, and I saw a really good
psychiatrist who That was the Other thing is that from
about six months I didn't sleep, and not like I
had sore hips, like I didn't sleep. It would be
four days and I'd be like, that's the fourth night
of no sleep.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
What was it that was stopping you from sleeping?
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Do you think it was pregnancy? It some near it
was hormonal. So it was like my brain could not
switch off, and I started hallucinating. I would like get
up and be like, I can't drive to work. I'm
it's like I've had I'm drunk, Like I can't even
stand up right.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
So that was awful.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
And the second the baby came out, I could sleep,
like I slept better in the postpartum period than I had.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
In well four or five months before.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
We talk about birth when you saw the psychologist, you're
still pregnant. Yeah, was there any advice or was anything
that you opened up.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
About or yeah, he said, And I thought this was
really helpful that the rates of people acknowledging they're not
feeling right in pregnancy and addressing it and then them
avoiding postnatal depression are really high, like as in, it's
the best thing you can do. Flag it as early
as you can, even if in the first trimester you're like, oh,
I'm not feeling like myself, I'm feeling really anxious. And
(26:01):
a lot of people say I cried every day during pregnancy, Like,
go and speak to something, because a.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Lot of a lot of women, I assume, early on
in their pregnancy would just think, Okay, this is just
part of it, right, instead of going, okay, there's actually
something not wrong.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yes, And then what often happens is that they're actually
signs that can then lead to post natal depression. And
if it's untreated, then you can wake up a year
later and go, I just lost a year with my baby,
like because I just felt like shit and none of
that that cloud it was like a cloud and excite
like exciting, amazing things would happen and it was like,
(26:34):
I just couldn't.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
I couldn't touch it, I couldn't access.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I could have won the lottery, and I would have
been like, I can't muster a feeling about that.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You just felt like you couldn't connect with anything.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, really like and I thought, did that help?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Did you lighten your workload? Did that help it all?
Speaker 5 (26:50):
No? I didn't it would have though you should be
a psychologis No.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
What helped was increasing the stage of medication was definitely good.
And he gave me sleeping aids because the issue is
that they are very reluctant to give you anything that
will help you sleep in case it impacts the baby.
But good psychiatrists, you know, have all the research and
they know what's worth it, because yeah, it's not safe
to have a pregnant woman walking around who hasn't slept
(27:18):
if he's not good for anyone.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
So he was fantastic and really prepared me for that
next kind of and then trimester.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Were you more anxious about then getting baby out or
were you looking forward to just closing that chapter on
being pregnant.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
I was really anxious because I was terrified about childbirth,
so scared and thinking that I'd had a really traumatic
pain experience about eighteen months before where I'd broken my
leg and had been stuck in the Northern Territory with
no pain relief for like eight hours, and had this
thing of I can't be stuck in pain, Like if
(27:55):
I'm stuck and I can't have respite, then I'll freak.
But I worked like really hard on that with like
a physio and my obstetrician had a.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Full plan, so a full birth plan.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah, had a plan, and the obstrition said, I think
you should try for natural and see how it goes
and so. But the issue though was that I didn't
think it would be relief after I was so terrified
for I thought I'd still be stuck in their space
and that the birth might go really badly and then
I'm not sleeping still.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I definitely wasn't feeling hopeful.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
You didn't feel like I was in a lot at
the end of the time.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
No, definitely not.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
I mean, already, like as parents will to be parents,
you're like, Okay, well, what's going to happen.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Next, what's going to happen?
Speaker 4 (28:39):
And all I saw and I don't know if it's
like an algorithm thing. But literally all I saw was negativity.
And I remember reaching out to Laura and saying thank
you for saying something positive, Like I just saw her
saying something about motherhood that was somewhat positive, and I
was like, you have no idea how important it is
for people to see role models and like people on
(29:00):
the other side who are not only talking about what
hell it is because pregnant women are not okay.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Pregnant women are walking around.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Uncomfortable and tired being told that they're about to ender
hell like that's.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, yeah's great.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
How did you make sure that after the birth of
Luna you didn't get burnt out again?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
I had decided to take a maternity leave, and in
my head it was like, oh, I need a month
and I'll get back, and in fact it was it
was me and it was Holly my co hosts, who
just went every woman does this. Every woman thinks that
they will need a month and that you don't you
need more. You like, take as much as you need,
(29:43):
but actually don't lock it in, like say you say
you're going to take three or four months, and then
if you need six, if you need twelve, then just
go with it.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
I had a book that was due.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Sorry, I think I finished it at about thirty six
weeks p something like that. Anyway, it came out when
I was five weeks postpartum. So I did Q and
A and I did the project and I did a
morning television thing.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
I'm no memory of any of it. But I actually
felt fucking amazing. I felt like I was on ecstasy,
like I felt high.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
It was great because of the book.
Speaker 6 (30:20):
No no, no, no no.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I was sleeping like I might've only been sleeping four
hours a night, but I was like I got to
sleep last night and I and it was deep sleep,
and I felt like myself again. And this fog, this
grayness had just immediately lifted, Like when I gave back
to Luna. It was immediate, it just lifted. It left
(30:42):
the room and I haven't seen it since. Wow, it
was like unbelievable, unbelievable because the labor itself was like
sixty two hours.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
I didn't sleep for three or four nights. I was
a mess.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
But when she came out, I just had all of
that and I was I deserved some good luck. So
I'm gonna like own that. But like I had the
come out life changing. See the universe, brain changing. I
had all of that, like total euphoria. It was like fantastic.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Wow, it was so good.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
And even the birth like it was great.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
It sixty two hours, it was great.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Tired, but the episure were worked and I pushed her
out and it was and then I pulled her out.
That's right. He got me. He got me to put
my arms under like her arms and pull her out,
and it was amazing. Wow. Just seeing her silly little
eyes was just like you have a face, you have
a face with features.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
On it, like what's the baby?
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Was she? You know what?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
I loved it, but I look at like especially those
early things, and it was it was hard. Like she
had like a dairy intolerance, so that was really hard.
So but she she would sleep, even if it was
for two hours at a time. And as I've understood it,
there are a lot of people who don't get that
that's when you go insane.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
So she would like pretty consistently like two hours, wake up,
two hours, whatever, and then I would just sleep in.
Someone said to me, the trick is to never get
out of bed, and it's so true.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
And it's like when you've got a newborn and they
get up at seven and I see people get up
and put their clothes on.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
I'm like, no, bitch, we're get in bed, put them
in the cut.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
You go, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And when you've got one, you can do it with two.
I imagine that that's but with one, it's like. But
she she's a very placid baby. She was very placid
and quite calm and like we just went for lots
of walks and stuff. But yeah, the dairy thing was
really hard because it was and we had failure to thrive.
(32:47):
She's putting on weight fairly. To thrive is when you
know how they leave a certain weight and then they
need them to put on what they Yeah, so she
was a little ish, not that little.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
She just would not put on weight. And I would
be her ten twelve times a day and we'd go
back and they'd be like, she's lost seventy grams. And
that happened week after week. And I was like, study
her for like somemo ZM pict shit because her metabolism,
there is some gene here you can quone.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Do I know what it was?
Speaker 5 (33:15):
They still don't.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Really.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
She was refluxy, like she's a bit vomity. But I'm
like I think she just has a fabulous metal.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You're welcome.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
It was really and I think I was trying to
feed and trying to feed, and then a lot of
people just said look through the formula. We had issues
with that because of the dairy thing. But once we
got onto the rice milk situation, then she started to.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Put it on. Once you figure out the dairy thing,
like yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Once you can go all right, I think we've worked
it out. She's on this particular formula and we did
a bit of mixed feeding. I think I fed it
for five or six months breastfed, and then once she
was on that got.
Speaker 5 (33:56):
A lot easier.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, they get chunky pretty quick too.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
You talk about that fear of like there is no
greater hindrance to your career than starting a family. Now
that you've been through that, those fears that you once had,
how do you view them?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
What no one tells you is that what you want
will change. And that's what I can't have anticipated or expected.
It's like I kept looking at people and going where
she disappeared to, where's he disappeared to after having a family,
and thinking, oh, they fell out of relevance or something,
and now actually having spoken to those people and knowing them,
(34:34):
it's like they didn't want to do it anymore, Like
they just by their own volition, went, I want my
life to look different, and so yeah, I think I
thought that opportunities would dry up, and that's not necessarily happened.
And it's such a small it's actually a way shorter
period in the scheme of things. You think it's going
(34:55):
to feel like forever. But people at work on attorney
leave all the time too. I swear it's two weeks later.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
I walk back in and I'm like, I don't even
remember you being gone. Back about eight children. I'm like, WHOA,
Like it is quicker than you think, and it's a
reshuffling of your priorities. But I actually think that's a
brilliant thing.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Have your priority shifted?
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Oh yeah, and they needed to, Like.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
I look at who I was during pregnancy, totally unsustainable,
probably not good value to my family or sister or
parents or husband. They needed they needed to shift, because
it's like if I.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
Bite off more than I can chew, I am I'm
just shit.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I go two jobs even It's like I think this
at work, we have these you know, brilliant producers and
brilliant team. If I can't turn up and be in
a great mood for those people, then don't turn up,
Like and it was. I think you can get a
bit of a like almost a victim mentality, being like
I'm so busy and it makes you very entitled. That's
(35:57):
no one's fault but your own. You bid off more
then you can do, and now you're tired and you're irritable.
So I feel as though I've gotten a lot better
at prioritizing. There's definitely been things I've said no to
which I've felt a little bit sad about, but maybe
for two minutes and then I get on with it.
Speaker 6 (36:15):
Yeah, Like with parenting, you mentioned there that your wants
change if you want change, and also the things you're
willing to sacrifice change, right, yes, because like you think,
before you had kids and someone would bring something to
you and you would you wouldn't sacrifice that for anything
at that stage until you've got or hang on a minute, yeah,
(36:36):
kid here, and I'm quite happy to sacrifice that.
Speaker 5 (36:38):
Now for this.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
So the big one for me is travel because it's
like I travel for certain TV stuff or podcast touring
or even book festivals. There's a lot of travel. I
could travel heaps if I wanted to. And now I
just look at it and I look at it in.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
My diary and go, it's just not worth it. And
it's not like I actually don't.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
When I am away from Luna for a prolonged period
of time, I'm not my best and I miss her
too much.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
It's for me. It's a selfish thing. It's not even
that I'm doing it for her. She'll be fine. It's
me that will feel sad about that.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
You talked about your family, just the way things worked out,
you and your sister were pregnant ahead were times. Was
that helpful of more of a hindrance?
Speaker 5 (37:20):
It was really, it was really good.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
So I fell pregnant by accident, and then she got
married in the February. I got married in the March,
and then I was six months pregnant, and Claire kept
saying that she had a wedding present to give me,
and I was like, this was after March, so maybe May.
She kept saying, I've got a wedding present to give you,
which is weird because we don't give each other present.
And then we're in the car and she's like here,
(37:42):
and she gave me a box and I opened it
and it was a pregnancy test and I was like
a positive pregnancy test. And I was like, how did
you get my pregnancy test? And she said, that's not
your pregnancy and I was like, oh, I see, so
I was about six months ahead of her. It was amazing.
It was like it was for even maternity clothes could
just all go to Clare. I'm so glad my birth
(38:05):
was great and straightforward because she saw that and had
not a single fear and her birth was fucked, so
it could have.
Speaker 5 (38:14):
Been the other way around. She'd seen that and then
she'd like, I think that would have screwed us around.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
But everything from like toys to solids, like all the
things that you learn to have, you know, five or
six months between the girls has just.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Been heaven have either of the kids mistaken you for
the other.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
There is a comfort that each of them have that's
like unlike with anyone else.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Like Matilda was her daughter was with me yesterday and
the way that she just like reaches up to me.
She knows I'm not her mum, but she knows I'm
a poor imitation and sometimes she's like, you look.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
Like her, you have the same coloring.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
I clearly don't smell the same or whatever, but she's like,
you'll do. And they both have that Wow.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Interesting, who is the better mum?
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Me? That would be me, who has a better behaved child?
Speaker 4 (39:09):
What's funny is that Clara and I so identical twins.
Those girls are technically half sisters genetically, because it is
like one person had a baby with one guy and
then that same person had a baby with another guy.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
Does that makes sense?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, I'm with you. Don't worry to forget about Ash.
I'm locked in.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
So half sisters technically, but they could not be more different.
Speaker 5 (39:38):
Like they are total office.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Your wife, Jesse, forget him, just podcast off, just you
and me.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
I'll just sit here and shout out.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Just such a great example of like you introduce food
exactly the same way, you do exactly the same sleep schedule,
You parent them exactly the same way, and guess what,
they're their own people like you. Just parenting doesn't even matter.
They come out how they come out, and they just
do their own thing. That's what we've seen.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
One of the biggest steps I think with the young
child is your first overseas trip, was it you took.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
The first trip we went together. So we had a
wedding in Ireland and of course we got mum and dad.
Speaker 5 (40:24):
To come to come and help us out.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
That's a long way.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
You have no idea how many months was Luna at
this point?
Speaker 5 (40:31):
She was eleven months? Theory the worst stage.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Remind me because it's all blur. Are they crawling at
eleven months? They are crawling but not walking? That they're mobile?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
There's a lot of sliding.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, yep, can't lock into the wiggles yet, Yes, that's
the issue. So they can move, they're not having like
they're awake for too long. They can't be distracted fully
by screens.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So it's weird.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
No man's yes, of hell, So we went over there.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
We just made so many errors. You just don't know
what you don't know. First error, moving around too much.
You shouldn't move around too much place, you just got
to stay there. Yeah, we did Ireland, well, three different
places in Ireland. Then why not go to the south
of France?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Of course?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Have you guys ever thought about Kentik?
Speaker 5 (41:28):
That's great?
Speaker 4 (41:29):
So that was really hard time, like the time zone,
the feeling of being an Ireland and having a baby
wake up at three am and you know the look
in their eye where they go the day's begun.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
No, no, no, it hasn't. Now it hasn't. And then
it gets to four pm that day and you're like.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Holy I'm in Ireland.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
I'm in a puff, I don't know which way's up,
and your baby's so angry. I actually think Claire's age
five months perfect, perfect day to take baby to Island.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Also like breastfeeding still or stuff.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Carrier isn't crawling, but everywhere you go to sit down
for Luna's not sitting in a hight chair having some lunch.
She's like I want to crawl and get into that
fountain and I'm like, no, where in this can't happen.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
I hate to gloat, so just bear with me for
a second. Marley was just gone three months and we
went to London. That's pretty good, genius.
Speaker 5 (42:26):
This is what everyone says. No, no, no, this is
a hack.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
This is a hack.
Speaker 5 (42:31):
You've got to do it before about I reckon five
or six months.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:34):
I met this couple in Bali once before I had kids,
and they had a five month old kid and he
was like the best.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
He's like because on the booty it's like not mobile.
Speaker 6 (42:45):
The Balinese women love this kid, so you like, go
sit down at the restaurant, give it to a Balinese,
have your.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Walk.
Speaker 6 (42:57):
I think the biggest thing I hate about traveling with
kids or now not so much because I mean they're
just they do want to get up and run around.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
It is what it is.
Speaker 6 (43:05):
You expect that the worst thing was traveling with them young,
and then when you get to the end of the
travel before you've traveled home and you're like, I'm in
a different country with this child, and now I've got
to get it all the way home.
Speaker 5 (43:17):
And it's like, how is this going to happen?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Because the way it worked is we did that trip
and then Luca had to go back early for work
and I had to do the flight from the south
of France to Sydney with an eleven month old on
my own. That is the single hardest thing I've ever done.
It was she I just at one point I just
took her into the bathroom and we just sat in
the bathroom and cried. I was like, I just need
to cry in private. But I was changing her nappy
(43:44):
and for whatever reason, I had my period. Tried changing
a tampon with an eleven month old on your hip
because you can't put them down. No one else is
going to take her. So I'm like, I'll put you
on the phone.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I've never done that.
Speaker 6 (43:55):
Myself, but I wouldn't put down on an airplane, bathroom
floor up things that literally like are in the quarantines.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
Well, even I was trying to get something out of
overhead and you know, you do weird shit when you're
on your own, your sleep drive. So I was getting
something out. I think I put her on the thing
of like the floor of the plane because the yeah, yeah,
put her on the wing and was like, she'll be right.
And then this man walked in traveling on his own
and goes, well, now she's got every illness And I
was like, do you want to hold it? Like I
(44:25):
only have so many arms. I'm trying to get her
bottle or she's going to scream this plane down a
fun I just I was like, it's good for immune system.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
Yeah, it was just spit on it.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
It was so it was so hard. And then because
obviously they don't even have their own seats, so they're
just on Yeah, that was really bonding.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
I always always talk about I think you feel the
same ash that the newborn phase is so blurry. I
can't really remember in the first twelve months. This is
a hard question to answer, first twelve months. What is
the best part if you can remember, if anything sticks out,
and what is the worst part.
Speaker 5 (45:05):
The best part is the slowness.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
I loved the slowness of like getting up in the
morning and like making coffee and then just sitting there
and just watching I remember the first time I watched
her watch something else, like you watch her Discovery Shadow
and you just feel like I could watch you.
Speaker 5 (45:23):
It's amazing. Or even at night past a plane and
they're like plan and they do like their little point.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
Or even at night I would get her up for
like she'd be out for her feet and you'd turn
a lamp on and you could just see her being
like what is that shadow? And like you watch all
the synapses connected.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Loved it.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Yeah. Oh the moment Luna found a ceiling fan, she
just fell in love and she was like has anyone
And then you look at it and you're like it
is pretty cool, cool and you just lay there watching
things being like it's not right now.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
So that was definitely the best thing, Like the way
it makes you look at everything differently, even like you
go to the beach and you watch them play with
the sand and water and everything, and you're like, yeah,
that's the literal.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
You eat the sand.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely, so many firsts sand And it's like
you didn't need anything on your play.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Is there a phase that you think You look back
and you think, I would never want to go through
that again, but obviously you may.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Like I think about that eleven month stage, and that
was really hard, Like I think her not being able
to walk, yet not being able to properly kind of
articulate herself. She's quite age, she's very cautious and risk averse,
but she's Clinging's not the right word. But you know,
you can't put them down, Like I find that probably
a bit a bit hard, But every stage had its
(46:54):
it's good bits, I think because you see them developing
and yeah, you.
Speaker 6 (46:58):
Mentioned and couldn't walk, probably couldn't articulate. They get so
frustrated and that now that you said that, that reminds
me of like that time when Oscar couldn't move, couldn't
really talk, and he was.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Just frustrat because he wanted to get up and move.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
But you check less and you're like you're hungry something, yeah, yeah,
and you just you can't work. There's a there's a
stage where it's like if they're crying, all they want
is milk, really, and then there's a stage where you're like,
I think you're bored and like you can't when coated,
(47:33):
I don't know how to entertain.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
You because you're like they either ship themselves, they need
to burp, they need to eat, and all of a sudden,
all these other emotions.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
I found that quite a simple stage. I think like
that that part was easy. But but yeah, you get
to a new stage where the frustrations are new and
the grumbling is new, and you're just trying.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
To work it out. This is going to go back
to when you were pregnant. I was just wondering if
there was anything in those moments where you were really
ruggling that Luca did which really helped you.
Speaker 4 (48:04):
I think that him when you're in it, sometimes you
don't know how bad it is, or how dark it is,
or how clear it is that you're not coping. Having
that person do the admin, I would never have sent
that email to my obstetrition and midwife like that was
him and then him being like, We're driving you to
(48:24):
the appointment and I'm feeling that script for you, and
like he was just very on that and I think
he actually at one stage went through my diary and
just went, we're not doing this and we're not doing this,
and like was really I was about thirty five weeks
pregnant and I got the flu na remember that got
the flu and the and covid y, Yeah, I got
(48:47):
the hybrid and I just remember, like, and you're coughing
and your ribs are hurting anyway, Like it was awful.
And that week, like as soon as that happened, he
was like, all right, I'm doing all the admint Like
that's what he's really really good at. I didn't have
to think about anything.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
You need someone to take charge to that mind.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't even have the energy to
cancel my week like he was.
Speaker 5 (49:08):
He was very very good like that.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Yeah sounds good, sounds great.
Speaker 5 (49:12):
Yeah he is. He's very very good.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
And he's such like to watch his relationship with Luna,
like that's one of the greatest joys.
Speaker 5 (49:20):
They are best friends.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
How would you describe him as a dad?
Speaker 4 (49:25):
He is like, I can't imagine him not being a
girl dad like, because that's what he he is. And
our dog Chile is also a girl, so he's just
like but Luna is him as a child, and he
he knows, like he'll get up every morning and he'll
talk Luna through her day because he's like, I remember
(49:45):
like and this as a kid, I needed to know
that what time I had swimming and who was coming
to visit, that I was going to have this. And
they are identical, like lucas a very ordered, tidy person,
and Luna will go and pick up a wed ex
and start like just cleaning them and I'm times or like,
go upstairs and I've left something at the bottom of
(50:06):
the stairs and she'll point at it, like that'll be
pierced if you don't bring that. She's just yeah, they're
so so alike. But I think about who I dated
in my twenties and had some awful people I dated.
But there have been moments at three am when the
baby's sick or the baby's crying or whatever, and I've
(50:28):
watched Luca get out of bed and I'm like that's
the mark of a good husband, like it were any
of those the type of man who would have got.
Speaker 5 (50:35):
Out of bed.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
No if he write this down yet, like that's to Yeah,
the person who will like, you know, drop everything and
jump go to the hospital because we need to or
whatever like that's been.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
Yeah, And you don't know how someone's going to be
as a dad to you.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Yeah, and you mentioned me. I was saying, I'm too
young to be a granddad. How is she adapted?
Speaker 5 (51:00):
Oh, my goodness, like the best grammar in the world.
Speaker 6 (51:03):
She is.
Speaker 4 (51:03):
They have Fridays that they have together, and she has
like she's got her this like a baby kitchen, like
one of those ties where they like.
Speaker 5 (51:12):
Make the eggs and stuff.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
No real heat.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
No, they have like their own activities and their own
books that they read. And like, you know, me is
very into clothes and I could not. Luna would wear
a potato sack every day for up to me. But
she comes home and these two two's with like like
just dresses her up and they love it together.
Speaker 5 (51:35):
Yeah, they're just best mates.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
It's funny when you see grandparents form their own relationships
with you.
Speaker 5 (51:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (51:40):
Yeah, And at first you have to be like she
likes this, and then by the end they're telling you
and I'm like, oh, I didn't know she liked the today.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Yeah, And it's like it's funny when you watch it
from the outside looking in, just like the little inside
jokes that they have.
Speaker 4 (51:59):
Yes, and even like obviously I met my father in
law when he was my CEO, Like he was an
intimidating you take him very seriously, highly intelligent man, right
like he is a business guy, very smart. And now
I see Luna be like she calls him butter, I
don't know, just to like insult him, Butter sit.
Speaker 5 (52:20):
He goes and sits.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
And then the other day she goes, who we bump
them and just to like make fun of him or whatever,
and to watch him just piss himself at some of
the things she says. And I'm like, it's no one
in the world that could speak to him like that,
and yet she gets away with us like she has
him tied around her little finger. And it's like the
loveliest thing to watch because I don't think that men
(52:42):
prepare for it like women do, especially like my dad
and my father in law had no idea how their
lives would change. The grandmothers knew they were prepared for
how much they were going to love these babies.
Speaker 3 (52:54):
And it's funny with the granddads, how much how much
love there.
Speaker 6 (52:58):
Is there right like it with a no prep and
then all of a sudden they've got a grand especially
a granddaughter, they're like, oh, they just they turn into
a different person. I turned into a different person when
I had a daughter. And then like I can see
my dad with my daughter, and it's.
Speaker 5 (53:17):
Like, where is this more there was?
Speaker 4 (53:23):
Dad was over the other day, like chasing Luna around,
because at first they're apprehensive, especially girls. I think around grandfathers,
maybe there's a bit just a bit of apprehension and whatever.
And now Luna's just fallen in love with dad and
he was chasing around the house and then he left
and Luna goes, oh, man.
Speaker 5 (53:40):
By that was just like I was like, I might
not tell doubt about the old man comments.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
And the podcast on a question, which is when Luna
is all grown up, she's no longer living at home,
what is the one thing you would want her to
remember about the house that she grew up in.
Speaker 5 (54:00):
That is such a good question.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
I think.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
I just I want her to remember that we had
a lot of fun. But most of all, I want
her to remember that whoever she was, whoever she was
first thing in the morning, or like you know, when
she was two or six or twelve, was just enough,
like her parents loved her, regardless of whatever results she
(54:25):
brought home from school, whatever she ends up doing with
her life.
Speaker 5 (54:29):
It's like.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
I remember someone a lot wiser than me once saying this,
It's like the world is where you go to challenge
yourself and get rejected. Your house is where you go
for unconditional love. Like that's where you go, where you
go no matter what I do, what I say, these
people love me. And I just want her to feel that,
Like I don't think you can say I love you
enough to a child, and you know she hears that
(54:55):
so much. So I want her to just go into
the world with that confidence and then take the risks outside.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Very good, Jesse, Thank you so much for jumping on
the podcast, and I do have to say, because we
will give you a great spiel of the intro. It's
amazing what you've achieved in media, so a huge well
done from Ash and myself, and also for being such
an amazing mom.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
You know what I love more than anything. Yes, I
love it.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Your pants are.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
Also, it's nice to talk to someone who was just
so intelligent.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
You're like, what do you mean? What do I mean?
Speaker 1 (55:39):
You're very smart? But I mean, hey, none of us
went to university. Did you finish school?
Speaker 5 (55:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (55:46):
No, no you didn't.
Speaker 6 (55:47):
Ye.
Speaker 3 (55:48):
We didn't even lie about it.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
We just spoke to a best selling author. Ash, we've
got a book, kid's books in a different league. Let's
admit it.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
Okay, I'll let that one slide.
Speaker 6 (56:00):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, share, review, leave
a little star review.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
I'm not even going to say please. I'm just going
to say, do it pretty please, do it right now?
Actually that's mean, isn't it pretty?
Speaker 3 (56:10):
Please?
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Yeah? It would be. It would be nice. If you
haven't subscribed to us, just tap that subscribe button or else.
That's that's a bit threatening. Okay, how can I make
it softer? We would appreciate it. That sounds really like condescending,
doesn't it just I would really appreciate it. Go going, go, go,
(56:33):
you yank you going left to review right. Also follow
us on social media. Two doting dads across TikTok Instagram
and of course they're Facebook. Let's Go Bye. Two Doting
Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia
(56:54):
and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 6 (56:57):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and in that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander
peoples today
Ash, did you know that most romances happen in the office.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I hate to break it to you, Matt, but I'm
a happily married man. That but a couple of drinks, Ash, please,
Oh so well.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Today's guest is a Sunday Times best seller broadcaster and
known for her astute opinions on Mamma Mia out loud,
I'm talking about Jesse Stevens. She also happened to find
love in the workplace.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh, Matt, and not any kind of love ooh. Luca
Levine also happens to be Jesse's boss's son.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Oh that's gcy. You never know who, what, or where
you'll find the love of your life, Ash.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
That's what makes life so exciting. Certainly it certainly had
a bit of spice to the workplace, that's for sure.
And Jesse spills all the tea.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yes because boiler Alert. Luca and Jesse's romance produced a
beautiful baby girl, little Luna, who is almost two years old.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Jesse also has a bit to share about her experience
of parental depression and how the pressure to get shit
done before she gave birth made her film Numb.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Welcome Back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
I am Maddie.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
J I'm Ash and I am Jesse Stevens. I am
the doting mum. I think I think three.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Lsta Is it anyone else? No, just bust under the table.
This is a podcast all about parenting. It is the good, it.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Is the bad and the relatable.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And if you've come for advice, Jesse, we do not
give it, not from Ash and myself. However, you are
a very intelligent person, far superior than us simple minded
dad's on the side. Yes, so you I'm sure, please,
I hope give advice if you've got.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Any no pressure.
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Well, I've had Ash on a podcast I did before
giving us advice, which one was.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
That it was called the baby Bubble.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
I forget the name for a second. Yeah, and we had.
Speaker 5 (02:06):
Actually, I'm sure you gave us some advice. You're very wise. Actually, no,
you talked.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
About having a proseectomy. Remember that we asked you all
the details about you for sect me.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
It's very enlightening.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
Thank you for asking me many questions about my penis
and testicles.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
Did you fuck the lawyer? The lawyers will be annoyed.
Did you give advice on that episode. No, nothing real,
Jesse did he?
Speaker 5 (02:27):
I think we knew he wasn't an advice guy.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
Thanks thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
We always start off going back to what you were
like as a teenager, and I dare say that I
think you would have been someone who would have been
like a ducks of the school.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I was going to pick that too. Actually, yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (02:46):
Not come across as a duck school cryptal. No was
a house captain.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
What's a house captain?
Speaker 5 (02:50):
A house captain, sports, house captain? Yeah, like that, like that.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Claire and I were house captain of yellow yellow house, Yellow.
I know, I didn't feel yellow didn't have the same
Was it called yellow? No, it was called a saint's
name because I went to a Catholic school.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
What's the saint of yellow?
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Praton?
Speaker 6 (03:09):
Oh, we have hours are named after different birds, like.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Like uh.
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Magpie.
Speaker 3 (03:22):
No, Rosella is red, Lori seagull. I can't remember the
other one.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Mars is Mitchell house. What color are you in red?
Speaker 5 (03:34):
I knew I was going to say you're in red?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
I was red.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
You just just have red energy because red a wise
wins fastest.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Ye ready the fastest.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
No, I was yellow house captain and I was I
was all right. But then in about year eleven, I
thought I would try really hard because I'm really really
competitive and I hate losing.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
So it's like, Okay, I'm going to try my absolute best.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
And I did, and I ended up being ducks with
my My school wasn't selective or anything.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
I nailed it.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
We knew that.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I thought that you somehow knew that I was duck
of my school and second in my year.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
One guess that's the this is the first prediction we've
ever got right.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
No, we're always quite what's.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
The prediction for who got second? In my ear?
Speaker 3 (04:18):
Are your sister?
Speaker 6 (04:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Yeah, she came second.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
We're actually I didn't know.
Speaker 5 (04:24):
This was a psychic podcast that was very exciting.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Who spearheaded the decision to like, now we knuckle down.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
I think it was some twin telepathy ship where we
just looked at each other and we were like, let's
now beat these bitches.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
Let's just we'll come together as a team.
Speaker 4 (04:39):
We just studied really hard, and I ended up I
did extension history and I came first in the state
for extension history and Claire came fifth. So we just
put our heads down and we're like, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Question, Yeah, all girls school, yep, okay, current debate in
our family co ed all girls thoughts.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
My mum taught it a co for years and years.
Dad teaches it in all boys. I think co ed's
better better for you, Like I I'd like to send
my daughter to a co ed. But the thing about
our school was that it was very kind of It
was a Catholic school, but the schools around us were
very private.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
So a lot of the private boys'.
Speaker 4 (05:17):
Schools, you know schools are Woolwich, which is in like
Hunter's Hill, Hunter's Hill. Yeah, but they were all the
fancy boys schools and they all had their tutors and
their you know, fancy applications to go to Cambridge or Oxford.
And that was not our not Our school school was
just you know, it was actually more sporty, which I
wasn't necessarily good at. But yes, Claia and I actually
(05:40):
put our head down and then went to UNI and
got a ridge shop.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
Did you ever get in trouble at school and blame
you twin?
Speaker 5 (05:46):
Yes? Okay, perfect, Yes, we did some.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
We definitely did some swapping and excuse me swapping, yes,
because we're identical. But The best trick was it we
played doubles tennis, right, and I am deathly competitive, but
I can't serve to save my life. So we would
do a little sneaky little between games, just a little dance,
(06:10):
and they're just served every time, like I never served.
Same outfit, same hair, same everything, and no one knew.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
You never did anything, like, hey, you're much better at
ancient history, so we're gonna I'll take that test for you. No,
you can't admit to this kind of stuff. This is
very incriminating.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
You could have just pretended to be one student gone
to school.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
I really really well. We used to do that.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
We worked at a golf club for years together, and they,
the golfers, would think we were one really efficient worker
when really we were two sheep workers that were usually
on the phone, like on our phone out the back.
But they were like, you're everywhere. I was like, no, there's.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Two of us.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
How good, it's very very good.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
You did very well at school, I'm assuming did very
well at university.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
And not that well at university.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
She's being modest. You end up working at my yeap,
which I have to congratulate, and all the amazing work
that you have done because it is astounding.
Speaker 5 (07:07):
It's a very fun job, very fun.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I want to talk about your now husband, Yes, Luca,
do you remember the moment that he stepped into the
office and you locked eyes with him? Yes?
Speaker 4 (07:18):
I remember him starting and there were a few whispers
because we knew that it was our boss, and at
that time it was Maya was my boss, and I
worked closely with her because I was doing a podcast
with her once a week and husband, Jason was a CEO,
So literally Maya and Jason were my bosses. And then
their son came in because he was really lost.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
He'd finished school, didn't know what he was doing and
came in just for a bit of work experience or whatever.
And we were like, oh, we're gonna have to train him.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
And my thing was like he's going to dob on
me when I'm wasting time, Like if I check my phone,
He's going to tell his parents that I'm actually being
a bit lazy, and so we all were on our
behavior around him. But I remember he walked in and
it was like hi, and then we sort of trained
him up in a few things and then before we
knew it.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Like was he good? Was he Yeah?
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:09):
He was really and that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
I think we all had a little bit of an
assumption about maybe he was going to be entitled and
maybe he was going to walk in and think he
didn't have to do any of the hard work. What
surprised us was that he was humble, he was quiet,
and he was really really hard working. So he he
was very very smart and had, you know, gone so
(08:32):
well at school and was a great writer. Like he
was a really really good writer. So I remember working
with him on that, and then we would go and
get drinks on like a Friday night or whatever after work,
and one of my boss said, he likes someone in
this office, but I don't know who it is because
I don't know why he's going like he's excited for
drinksh Yeah.
Speaker 5 (08:52):
That was a giveaway, is it. He'd be like, are
we getting drinks tonight?
Speaker 4 (08:55):
And I was like, oh, looks kan On drinks And
so we thought it was we thought it was somebody else.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
I was just like, yeah, I think he likes Katie.
I reckon, he likes Katie.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
But Katie was already taken, so I think you had
to go for the.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Next At this point, any romantic sparks internally.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
No, no, as anyone said could pick up on it.
Speaker 5 (09:19):
No, we were just really good friends.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And I think we started actually recording a podcast and
he might have been producing it at the time, and
he really I remember Clara and I were writing recaps
at the time.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
It was probably about your season of The Bachelor.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
God, I'm sorry, writing recauts, lots of zooming in on
your face, and Luca would always read it. He'd come
in and be like, I really liked it. I thought
it was funny when you said this, this and this.
Like he just liked our work.
Speaker 5 (09:45):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
We'd turn up and pitch every morning. And you know
how when you're at work, you can't pretend to be
someone like you are just yourself.
Speaker 5 (09:52):
It's not like on.
Speaker 4 (09:53):
A Friday or Saturday night when you can you're going
out to dinner and you put on a bit of
a persona. So we got really close and really friendly,
and he really liked true crime podcasts and we'd always share them.
So it was just very very friendly and very slow
after over months and months, and we'd even hang out
on the weekend and stuff, and it was like myself,
my twin sister and him like the three of us
were really really close. Then I think we started hanging
(10:16):
out more just us, and that's when it.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
Got a bit close.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
What was the moment where you thought, oh, my goodness,
he's not just a friend. I think I might like
this guy.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
I remember we went to a friend's like Farewell, and
we were there that night and there was just a
vibe and I thought, I think, like, I am feeling
a bit of a vibe. And then I thought, are
you leaning into this because you think it's risky?
Speaker 5 (10:44):
Like is it a bit for fun?
Speaker 1 (10:45):
It's exciting, it's exciting.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
I'm excited because you know you shouldn't, right, it's a
good story. It's like being told not to jump over
the edge of something you kind of and so I.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Was going, beautiful, you might lose.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
A hand exactly, like I had no idea both hands,
who knows.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
And so when I started feeling that, Claire said.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
To me, you know, be really careful because it's good backfire.
We've worked really hard to be here.
Speaker 5 (11:12):
And then if you date in the boss's son, something
goes wrong, like fuck, put the fireworks down. Claire is
just not into it at all, whereas Luca. Luca eventually
I think he called.
Speaker 4 (11:29):
I remember him saying something like I like someone in
the office, and like he did this whole thing, and
then it was like it's you, and it was just
like cute, and then we you and.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Then I wrote, this is so weird.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
But like he came over for the first time, we
watched some really graphic, awful true crime documentary. But that
was like our love language was watching these revolting documentaries.
Once we started seeing each other, it just kind of
went from there. I think he's a very he didn't
want to waste anyone's time, and he's and everyone who
knows him is like, he's not you know, he seems
(12:05):
so much older than he is, and I think that's
why when he started hanging out with my friends, it
wasn't weird because he was just fit in seamlessly.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
He is about six years younger than you.
Speaker 5 (12:16):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
He was the eldest child, you know, had two parents
who worked a lot, lots of independence, understood media very well.
Like I don't think he was. He's always been an old,
old man, like more mature than I am.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
Had you dated anyone younger, no.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
And I wouldn't even if I would have been on
all the apps at that stage, I wouldn't have dated
anyone one year younger than me, like I would have
had all my dating app set to my age are older,
because I guess there's just a bit of a taboo
about it. And I just thought, Oh, we'd be in
a different stage and we wouldn't have anything in common.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Do you think because you were friends first that it
really helped.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (12:52):
I think that that made a difference, and that I
kind of went, if you're not going to do it
because you're worried about what people are gonna think, think
anyone is actually thinking about.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
You that much, and you could have missed out on something, Yeah, amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (13:04):
There was someone I worked with who was maybe in
her forties and her husband was six or seven years younger,
and she'd talked about it sometimes and I just went,
this is actually happening all the time, Like there are
age gaps all the time. The older you get, the
less you feel the gap as well. So now he's
in his late twenties and I'm in my mid thirties,
Like it doesn't you don't feel it?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, when you're younger, you're like what, Yeah, I think
about that.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Yeah, And my mates as well in their mid twenties.
They wouldn't have better annihild at dating a twenty year old,
like as in my male friends. I think that that's
not stigmatized. But for women, the idea of dating someone
younger just I don't know, there's definitely.
Speaker 6 (13:46):
A stigma, do you think as well, like because we
always talk about how girls mature faster than Yeah, man,
the expectation is that you want someone at your maturity level,
but if you were friends with him.
Speaker 5 (13:58):
I think the other thing is babies.
Speaker 4 (14:01):
I think that it's like, if you are thinking about
having kids one day, then there's a risk in going
for a man who's younger than you because it's like
by the time you're ready, and then you're getting older
and older. And if he's not ready till he's in
his mid thirties and you want to start there, and
then that's a complication. But I mean the irony of
that is that I know many men in their mid
to late thirties who aren't ready, Like, yeah, I don't
(14:22):
think it's his age dependent.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
I mean in their forties is still aren't ready?
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Yeah, forty is young, Matt young, you're not ready and
you've got two.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yeah, I'm definitely not ready.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Any did you guys have a game plan in terms
of when you guys did cross that line? You have
a relationship for a period, I'm assuming it would have
been secretive. Yeah, did you say this is the point
that we will then announce it, because obviously you don't
want to. You don't announce it, and then you guys
break up and you're like, fuck, we went through all
of that for nothing.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
And I think Lucas has a cautiousness because of what
he's grown up with him having a mum who has
a bit of a profile.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
I think is that he's just kind of reserved.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
And so we didn't want to talk about it at
the office when we went, well, it's not it's not relevant.
And weirdly, our work doesn't really have a policy because
it's mostly women. This is not an issue that they've
had because it's there's not a lot of men to
and every man who doesn't to the office leaves the
married or engaged to someone.
Speaker 5 (15:15):
In the right place.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Ply.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
But I remember we're at a cafe like early one
morning before work and someone from sales and I love her,
but she saw us, and she saw Luca lean over
and kissing, and she ran into the office and was like,
I have just seen something and she was yelling at
as like announcing it to her team. And one of
the girls in her team is one of my best
(15:44):
friends from school. So she's sitting there going because she
did know, and she was sitting there and she goes,
Luke just does that. He's a very affectionate person, and
he kisses me on the head.
Speaker 5 (15:55):
And everyone was like, really doesn't sound.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Exactly yea everyone from that moment because I'm assuming your
friend told you.
Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yes, she told me, and so there were whispers and
then we kind of went all right, we should I
think people in the team started to know, and then
it probably caused a few issues because there were people going,
you know, is there going to be priority for her or.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Like I can start doing half days and yeah, exactly right.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Say i'd picture story or something, and then that story
got green lip. Then it was sort of like, well,
it's of course her story was green lip. I think, yeah,
the boss's son, Like there was definitely an element of
that which ended up being acknowledged, like sort of nipped
in the bard. And I think that there were there
were different there was a Melbourne office and there was
a Sydney office, and I think there were assumptions about
(16:45):
what was happening and it wasn't necessarily happening. But Luca
and I just went all right, we put our heads
down and we work hard, and no one can take
that away from you. Like if you do good work,
then the work speaks for itself, Like you're not going
to convince people to think something else.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
Do you remember the moment you had to tell me?
Speaker 6 (17:05):
So?
Speaker 4 (17:06):
Sort of we were we were hanging out on the
weekend and I remember we went to the beach and
then Luca was like, let's go and get some towels
because we've forgotten towels.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
Let's go to my house and get towels. And I
was like, oh, you forgot I feel like we've been
at my house.
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I had my cozy and maybe I didn't have a tower.
That sounds like something I would think of.
Speaker 1 (17:28):
Luca, come on to dressed, my guy.
Speaker 4 (17:29):
We're not going to go to your house on the
weekend and get a towel exactly. And then he was like, no,
I don't think my parents are there. And I was like,
all right, his parents aren't there.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
I'll walk in. I walk in, there's my boss.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
I'm standing there wanting a towel, hanging out with Luca,
going this is.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
I feel like.
Speaker 3 (17:48):
Bath so.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
And so I think from that moment, I remember speaking
to me or on the phone and her saying, this
is not going to.
Speaker 5 (17:57):
Cost you a job, like, but don't break my.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Like you've got your position here, you got your role
on the podcast. If you and Luca break up tomorrow,
you're not going to lose your job. Don't worry about that.
Don't let that be a factor.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
H Hopefully she wasn't. Gasline.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Yeah, well we don't know.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
Do we know, because I never dumped him.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
But yes yet yet Yeah, didn't have any impact. The
letter that Mia had openly written about how tough it
was as a mom to say goodbye to your son.
Had that played on you at all?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
It was funny because I think that she talked about
that on the podcast. And it's always funny because I'm
sitting there like or we've been on the podcast and
she's cried because.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
She's like, my son's moving out, and I'm like, with me.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Dynamic, you know, sometimes we talk about relationships or sex things,
and it's just sitting there with.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
Your mother in law and you're like, con't relo.
Speaker 4 (18:46):
It's just like it's the weirdest it's the weirdest dynamic,
but for some reason it totally works.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
So we've just been really, really honest about it.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
And I know that she had a lot of big
feelings even when when I was pregnant, like she was
going to become a grandmother and that's like, and she's
quite She's only in her early fifties, so for her,
she's like, I'm not ready to be an Anna, Like
it's dead. Yeah, very interesting to nut out at work.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So then who spearhead the conversation about when you would
have or when you would try for kids.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Well, I was I would have been happy years before
Luca and we would talk about it and go, all right,
let's say I'm ready at thirty and he's going, I'd
like to wait a couple more years.
Speaker 5 (19:31):
Would go, right, let's start.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
Trying at thirty one, and then of course you get
to thirty one, you've got a few things on, and
then you get to and then he proposed when we
were overseas, which was really exciting. He would have been
one of the first in his friendship groups to propose?
Speaker 3 (19:46):
Can we have the proposal story quickly?
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Oh?
Speaker 5 (19:48):
Yes, yes.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
We were in Martha's vineyard and we were walking along
a beach and Rory Luca was like, let's get a photo,
which was a first He's never won on a photo
in his Whole Life giveaway and Rory Claire's husband was
holding the phone and then Luca knelt down and I
(20:10):
was like, what are you doing, and then realized that
he was filming it and that it was a proposal.
Speaker 5 (20:14):
But I'd had a few a few days before. I'd
picked up his jacket and said.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
It had got a bit cold and put my hands
in the pocket and thought I felt some AirPods. Took
my hands straight back out. But then when Luca saw
me wearing the jacket, he lost his shit and was like,
don't chake my jacket. I was like, whoa, I should break.
Speaker 5 (20:31):
Up with him?
Speaker 4 (20:33):
And it turns out that was the ring and I
just didn't notice. So yeah, and then we were engaged
and fell pregnant accidentally, and I discovered one evening when
he was out and he walked in and I had
like half a block of chocolate in my mouth, and
(20:54):
the pregnancy test, just sitting there and he was like, ah,
so it was a bit because I think we had
a wedding date set. I was writing a book, you know,
we were renting a tiny apartment and it.
Speaker 5 (21:07):
Was just like the red time.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Yeah, it was like a shock, but in the moment
we both knew that it was going to be the
right time. But it was a real shock. You go
through some really complicated emotions when it's a shock. I
think it's like it's not as simple as excitement. You
kind of have to recalibrate what the rest of your
life looks like in an hour.
Speaker 5 (21:29):
Yeah, confronting.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
Do you remember the time you broke it to me
that she was going to be a grandmother?
Speaker 4 (21:35):
I had Actually we were doing a tour of Out
Loud when I was about eight weeks pregnant, so I
wasn't telling anyone yet. But we went to dinner after
one of the shows and there was wine and Maya
tried to pour me a glass and I said, no, no,
I don't feel like it, and she said, what are
you pregnant? And I was like, it was like, I
can't tell you now that you're a grandmother face.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
I was like, no, I'm just feeling, well, you shouldn't
ask him enough.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
And then a few weeks later I think that we
did it with maybe it was Mother's Day, maybe it
was something, and we gave her a card and it
was like we gave her a card for something, and
she like didn't open it straight away, and we were going,
we think you should open your card, and then she
read it and it must have said to Nana or
(22:22):
something like that, like it had something on it, and
I just remember her face being like, oh my god,
like it was such a shock to her and Jason
like they were not expecting that, because I think when
the wedding was happening, it was like you were assuming
it was going to happen, and they were both like, oh.
Speaker 5 (22:39):
My god, what the hell.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
So, yeah, you've spoken quite a lot about the fact
that pregnancy for you was quite difficult for those who
aren't familiar. Why was it so tough?
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Oh, it was a shit shit time. I got.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
I didn't know this, but if you are on anti
anxiety or antidepressants, really any medication then and during pregnancy,
your blood volume increases and it dilutes any medication that
you're on. So suddenly it was like I wasn't on anything.
So I've been on anti anxiety medication for ten years,
and it was like I'd gone off that cold turkey.
So I was probably from I'd say the second I
(23:18):
felt pregnant, I just did not feel like myself. I
felt really weird. I felt foggy, I felt anxious. I
couldn't see the future. And then it got worse and worse.
And I think that there were also environmental factors. I
was working too hard in that I felt as though
my life ended when that baby came out.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
I thought, you'll never work again.
Speaker 4 (23:39):
You've got till that date to do everything you've ever
wanted to do in your career. So I was finishing
a book, I was writing an episode of a television show.
I was recording five podcasts, six podcasts a week.
Speaker 5 (23:53):
I was going to Melbourne every week for the project.
It was out of pat I look back and go.
I was flying at thirty weeks thirty six weeks pregnant
to Melbourne for a day and wondering yeah all the time,
and wondering why.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
My body was just And I got married, moved house,
all of those things while pregnant, and I just tried
to fit too much in and completely burnt out, and
I was, oh, it was like I was underwater, I
was in a dream.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
I couldn't feel anything. I was totally numb.
Speaker 1 (24:33):
Were you communicating this to Luke or anybody else?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
He ended up actually contacting my obstetrician and midwife and
just being like, we.
Speaker 5 (24:43):
Do something about this problem in the house.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
And they were fantastic, and I saw a really good
psychiatrist who That was the Other thing is that from
about six months I didn't sleep, and not like I
had sore hips, like I didn't sleep. It would be
four days and I'd be like, that's the fourth night
of no sleep.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
What was it that was stopping you from sleeping?
Speaker 4 (25:04):
Do you think it was pregnancy? It some near it
was hormonal. So it was like my brain could not
switch off, and I started hallucinating. I would like get
up and be like, I can't drive to work. I'm
it's like I've had I'm drunk, Like I can't even
stand up right.
Speaker 5 (25:21):
So that was awful.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
And the second the baby came out, I could sleep,
like I slept better in the postpartum period than I had.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
In well four or five months before.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
We talk about birth when you saw the psychologist, you're
still pregnant. Yeah, was there any advice or was anything
that you opened up.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
About or yeah, he said, And I thought this was
really helpful that the rates of people acknowledging they're not
feeling right in pregnancy and addressing it and then them
avoiding postnatal depression are really high, like as in, it's
the best thing you can do. Flag it as early
as you can, even if in the first trimester you're like, oh,
I'm not feeling like myself, I'm feeling really anxious. And
(26:01):
a lot of people say I cried every day during pregnancy, Like,
go and speak to something, because a.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
Lot of a lot of women, I assume, early on
in their pregnancy would just think, Okay, this is just
part of it, right, instead of going, okay, there's actually
something not wrong.
Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yes, And then what often happens is that they're actually
signs that can then lead to post natal depression. And
if it's untreated, then you can wake up a year
later and go, I just lost a year with my baby,
like because I just felt like shit and none of
that that cloud it was like a cloud and excite
like exciting, amazing things would happen and it was like,
(26:34):
I just couldn't.
Speaker 5 (26:36):
I couldn't touch it, I couldn't access.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I could have won the lottery, and I would have
been like, I can't muster a feeling about that.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
You just felt like you couldn't connect with anything.
Speaker 5 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, really like and I thought, did that help?
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Did you lighten your workload? Did that help it all?
Speaker 5 (26:50):
No? I didn't it would have though you should be
a psychologis No.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
What helped was increasing the stage of medication was definitely good.
And he gave me sleeping aids because the issue is
that they are very reluctant to give you anything that
will help you sleep in case it impacts the baby.
But good psychiatrists, you know, have all the research and
they know what's worth it, because yeah, it's not safe
to have a pregnant woman walking around who hasn't slept
(27:18):
if he's not good for anyone.
Speaker 5 (27:19):
So he was fantastic and really prepared me for that
next kind of and then trimester.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Were you more anxious about then getting baby out or
were you looking forward to just closing that chapter on
being pregnant.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
I was really anxious because I was terrified about childbirth,
so scared and thinking that I'd had a really traumatic
pain experience about eighteen months before where I'd broken my
leg and had been stuck in the Northern Territory with
no pain relief for like eight hours, and had this
thing of I can't be stuck in pain, Like if
(27:55):
I'm stuck and I can't have respite, then I'll freak.
But I worked like really hard on that with like
a physio and my obstetrician had a.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Full plan, so a full birth plan.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah, had a plan, and the obstrition said, I think
you should try for natural and see how it goes
and so. But the issue though was that I didn't
think it would be relief after I was so terrified
for I thought I'd still be stuck in their space
and that the birth might go really badly and then
I'm not sleeping still.
Speaker 5 (28:27):
I definitely wasn't feeling hopeful.
Speaker 3 (28:30):
You didn't feel like I was in a lot at
the end of the time.
Speaker 5 (28:32):
No, definitely not.
Speaker 6 (28:33):
I mean, already, like as parents will to be parents,
you're like, Okay, well, what's going to happen.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
Next, what's going to happen?
Speaker 4 (28:39):
And all I saw and I don't know if it's
like an algorithm thing. But literally all I saw was negativity.
And I remember reaching out to Laura and saying thank
you for saying something positive, Like I just saw her
saying something about motherhood that was somewhat positive, and I
was like, you have no idea how important it is
for people to see role models and like people on
(29:00):
the other side who are not only talking about what
hell it is because pregnant women are not okay.
Speaker 5 (29:06):
Pregnant women are walking around.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
Uncomfortable and tired being told that they're about to ender
hell like that's.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah, yeah's great.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
How did you make sure that after the birth of
Luna you didn't get burnt out again?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
I had decided to take a maternity leave, and in
my head it was like, oh, I need a month
and I'll get back, and in fact it was it
was me and it was Holly my co hosts, who
just went every woman does this. Every woman thinks that
they will need a month and that you don't you
need more. You like, take as much as you need,
(29:43):
but actually don't lock it in, like say you say
you're going to take three or four months, and then
if you need six, if you need twelve, then just
go with it.
Speaker 5 (29:52):
I had a book that was due.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
Sorry, I think I finished it at about thirty six
weeks p something like that. Anyway, it came out when
I was five weeks postpartum. So I did Q and
A and I did the project and I did a
morning television thing.
Speaker 5 (30:09):
I'm no memory of any of it. But I actually
felt fucking amazing. I felt like I was on ecstasy,
like I felt high.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
It was great because of the book.
Speaker 6 (30:20):
No no, no, no no.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
I was sleeping like I might've only been sleeping four
hours a night, but I was like I got to
sleep last night and I and it was deep sleep,
and I felt like myself again. And this fog, this
grayness had just immediately lifted, Like when I gave back
to Luna. It was immediate, it just lifted. It left
(30:42):
the room and I haven't seen it since. Wow, it
was like unbelievable, unbelievable because the labor itself was like
sixty two hours.
Speaker 5 (30:50):
I didn't sleep for three or four nights. I was
a mess.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
But when she came out, I just had all of
that and I was I deserved some good luck. So
I'm gonna like own that. But like I had the
come out life changing. See the universe, brain changing. I
had all of that, like total euphoria. It was like fantastic.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
Wow, it was so good.
Speaker 5 (31:13):
And even the birth like it was great.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
It sixty two hours, it was great.
Speaker 5 (31:18):
Tired, but the episure were worked and I pushed her
out and it was and then I pulled her out.
That's right. He got me. He got me to put
my arms under like her arms and pull her out,
and it was amazing. Wow. Just seeing her silly little
eyes was just like you have a face, you have
a face with features.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
On it, like what's the baby?
Speaker 5 (31:37):
Was she? You know what?
Speaker 4 (31:40):
I loved it, but I look at like especially those
early things, and it was it was hard. Like she
had like a dairy intolerance, so that was really hard.
So but she she would sleep, even if it was
for two hours at a time. And as I've understood it,
there are a lot of people who don't get that
that's when you go insane.
Speaker 5 (31:58):
So she would like pretty consistently like two hours, wake up,
two hours, whatever, and then I would just sleep in.
Someone said to me, the trick is to never get
out of bed, and it's so true.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
And it's like when you've got a newborn and they
get up at seven and I see people get up
and put their clothes on.
Speaker 5 (32:15):
I'm like, no, bitch, we're get in bed, put them
in the cut.
Speaker 1 (32:21):
You go, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
And when you've got one, you can do it with two.
I imagine that that's but with one, it's like. But
she she's a very placid baby. She was very placid
and quite calm and like we just went for lots
of walks and stuff. But yeah, the dairy thing was
really hard because it was and we had failure to thrive.
(32:47):
She's putting on weight fairly. To thrive is when you
know how they leave a certain weight and then they
need them to put on what they Yeah, so she
was a little ish, not that little.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
She just would not put on weight. And I would
be her ten twelve times a day and we'd go
back and they'd be like, she's lost seventy grams. And
that happened week after week. And I was like, study
her for like somemo ZM pict shit because her metabolism,
there is some gene here you can quone.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Do I know what it was?
Speaker 5 (33:15):
They still don't.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
Really.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
She was refluxy, like she's a bit vomity. But I'm
like I think she just has a fabulous metal.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
You're welcome.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
It was really and I think I was trying to
feed and trying to feed, and then a lot of
people just said look through the formula. We had issues
with that because of the dairy thing. But once we
got onto the rice milk situation, then she started to.
Speaker 3 (33:40):
Put it on. Once you figure out the dairy thing,
like yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
Once you can go all right, I think we've worked
it out. She's on this particular formula and we did
a bit of mixed feeding. I think I fed it
for five or six months breastfed, and then once she
was on that got.
Speaker 5 (33:56):
A lot easier.
Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, they get chunky pretty quick too.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
You talk about that fear of like there is no
greater hindrance to your career than starting a family. Now
that you've been through that, those fears that you once had,
how do you view them?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
What no one tells you is that what you want
will change. And that's what I can't have anticipated or expected.
It's like I kept looking at people and going where
she disappeared to, where's he disappeared to after having a family,
and thinking, oh, they fell out of relevance or something,
and now actually having spoken to those people and knowing them,
(34:34):
it's like they didn't want to do it anymore, Like
they just by their own volition, went, I want my
life to look different, and so yeah, I think I
thought that opportunities would dry up, and that's not necessarily happened.
And it's such a small it's actually a way shorter
period in the scheme of things. You think it's going
(34:55):
to feel like forever. But people at work on attorney
leave all the time too. I swear it's two weeks later.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
I walk back in and I'm like, I don't even
remember you being gone. Back about eight children. I'm like, WHOA,
Like it is quicker than you think, and it's a
reshuffling of your priorities. But I actually think that's a
brilliant thing.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Have your priority shifted?
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Oh yeah, and they needed to, Like.
Speaker 4 (35:18):
I look at who I was during pregnancy, totally unsustainable,
probably not good value to my family or sister or
parents or husband. They needed they needed to shift, because
it's like if I.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
Bite off more than I can chew, I am I'm
just shit.
Speaker 4 (35:36):
I go two jobs even It's like I think this
at work, we have these you know, brilliant producers and
brilliant team. If I can't turn up and be in
a great mood for those people, then don't turn up,
Like and it was. I think you can get a
bit of a like almost a victim mentality, being like
I'm so busy and it makes you very entitled. That's
(35:57):
no one's fault but your own. You bid off more
then you can do, and now you're tired and you're irritable.
So I feel as though I've gotten a lot better
at prioritizing. There's definitely been things I've said no to
which I've felt a little bit sad about, but maybe
for two minutes and then I get on with it.
Speaker 6 (36:15):
Yeah, Like with parenting, you mentioned there that your wants
change if you want change, and also the things you're
willing to sacrifice change, right, yes, because like you think,
before you had kids and someone would bring something to
you and you would you wouldn't sacrifice that for anything
at that stage until you've got or hang on a minute, yeah,
(36:36):
kid here, and I'm quite happy to sacrifice that.
Speaker 5 (36:38):
Now for this.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
So the big one for me is travel because it's
like I travel for certain TV stuff or podcast touring
or even book festivals. There's a lot of travel. I
could travel heaps if I wanted to. And now I
just look at it and I look at it in.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
My diary and go, it's just not worth it. And
it's not like I actually don't.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
When I am away from Luna for a prolonged period
of time, I'm not my best and I miss her
too much.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
It's for me. It's a selfish thing. It's not even
that I'm doing it for her. She'll be fine. It's
me that will feel sad about that.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
You talked about your family, just the way things worked out,
you and your sister were pregnant ahead were times. Was
that helpful of more of a hindrance?
Speaker 5 (37:20):
It was really, it was really good.
Speaker 4 (37:21):
So I fell pregnant by accident, and then she got
married in the February. I got married in the March,
and then I was six months pregnant, and Claire kept
saying that she had a wedding present to give me,
and I was like, this was after March, so maybe May.
She kept saying, I've got a wedding present to give you,
which is weird because we don't give each other present.
And then we're in the car and she's like here,
(37:42):
and she gave me a box and I opened it
and it was a pregnancy test and I was like
a positive pregnancy test. And I was like, how did
you get my pregnancy test? And she said, that's not
your pregnancy and I was like, oh, I see, so
I was about six months ahead of her. It was amazing.
It was like it was for even maternity clothes could
just all go to Clare. I'm so glad my birth
(38:05):
was great and straightforward because she saw that and had
not a single fear and her birth was fucked, so
it could have.
Speaker 5 (38:14):
Been the other way around. She'd seen that and then
she'd like, I think that would have screwed us around.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
But everything from like toys to solids, like all the
things that you learn to have, you know, five or
six months between the girls has just.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Been heaven have either of the kids mistaken you for
the other.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
There is a comfort that each of them have that's
like unlike with anyone else.
Speaker 4 (38:44):
Like Matilda was her daughter was with me yesterday and
the way that she just like reaches up to me.
She knows I'm not her mum, but she knows I'm
a poor imitation and sometimes she's like, you look.
Speaker 5 (38:54):
Like her, you have the same coloring.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
I clearly don't smell the same or whatever, but she's like,
you'll do. And they both have that Wow.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Interesting, who is the better mum?
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Me? That would be me, who has a better behaved child?
Speaker 4 (39:09):
What's funny is that Clara and I so identical twins.
Those girls are technically half sisters genetically, because it is
like one person had a baby with one guy and
then that same person had a baby with another guy.
Speaker 5 (39:23):
Does that makes sense?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, I'm with you. Don't worry to forget about Ash.
I'm locked in.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
So half sisters technically, but they could not be more different.
Speaker 5 (39:38):
Like they are total office.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Your wife, Jesse, forget him, just podcast off, just you
and me.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
I'll just sit here and shout out.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
Just such a great example of like you introduce food
exactly the same way, you do exactly the same sleep schedule,
You parent them exactly the same way, and guess what,
they're their own people like you. Just parenting doesn't even matter.
They come out how they come out, and they just
do their own thing. That's what we've seen.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
One of the biggest steps I think with the young
child is your first overseas trip, was it you took.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
The first trip we went together. So we had a
wedding in Ireland and of course we got mum and dad.
Speaker 5 (40:24):
To come to come and help us out.
Speaker 3 (40:25):
That's a long way.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
You have no idea how many months was Luna at
this point?
Speaker 5 (40:31):
She was eleven months? Theory the worst stage.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Remind me because it's all blur. Are they crawling at
eleven months? They are crawling but not walking? That they're mobile?
Speaker 3 (40:42):
There's a lot of sliding.
Speaker 4 (40:44):
Yeah, yep, can't lock into the wiggles yet, Yes, that's
the issue. So they can move, they're not having like
they're awake for too long. They can't be distracted fully
by screens.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
So it's weird.
Speaker 5 (40:59):
No man's yes, of hell, So we went over there.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
We just made so many errors. You just don't know
what you don't know. First error, moving around too much.
You shouldn't move around too much place, you just got
to stay there. Yeah, we did Ireland, well, three different
places in Ireland. Then why not go to the south
of France?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Of course?
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Why not?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Have you guys ever thought about Kentik?
Speaker 5 (41:28):
That's great?
Speaker 4 (41:29):
So that was really hard time, like the time zone,
the feeling of being an Ireland and having a baby
wake up at three am and you know the look
in their eye where they go the day's begun.
Speaker 5 (41:41):
No, no, no, it hasn't. Now it hasn't. And then
it gets to four pm that day and you're like.
Speaker 3 (41:47):
Holy I'm in Ireland.
Speaker 4 (41:49):
I'm in a puff, I don't know which way's up,
and your baby's so angry. I actually think Claire's age
five months perfect, perfect day to take baby to Island.
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Also like breastfeeding still or stuff.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Carrier isn't crawling, but everywhere you go to sit down
for Luna's not sitting in a hight chair having some lunch.
She's like I want to crawl and get into that
fountain and I'm like, no, where in this can't happen.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
I hate to gloat, so just bear with me for
a second. Marley was just gone three months and we
went to London. That's pretty good, genius.
Speaker 5 (42:26):
This is what everyone says. No, no, no, this is
a hack.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
This is a hack.
Speaker 5 (42:31):
You've got to do it before about I reckon five
or six months.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (42:34):
I met this couple in Bali once before I had kids,
and they had a five month old kid and he
was like the best.
Speaker 3 (42:40):
He's like because on the booty it's like not mobile.
Speaker 6 (42:45):
The Balinese women love this kid, so you like, go
sit down at the restaurant, give it to a Balinese,
have your.
Speaker 3 (42:53):
Walk.
Speaker 6 (42:57):
I think the biggest thing I hate about traveling with
kids or now not so much because I mean they're
just they do want to get up and run around.
Speaker 3 (43:05):
It is what it is.
Speaker 6 (43:05):
You expect that the worst thing was traveling with them young,
and then when you get to the end of the
travel before you've traveled home and you're like, I'm in
a different country with this child, and now I've got
to get it all the way home.
Speaker 5 (43:17):
And it's like, how is this going to happen?
Speaker 4 (43:21):
Because the way it worked is we did that trip
and then Luca had to go back early for work
and I had to do the flight from the south
of France to Sydney with an eleven month old on
my own. That is the single hardest thing I've ever done.
It was she I just at one point I just
took her into the bathroom and we just sat in
the bathroom and cried. I was like, I just need
to cry in private. But I was changing her nappy
(43:44):
and for whatever reason, I had my period. Tried changing
a tampon with an eleven month old on your hip
because you can't put them down. No one else is
going to take her. So I'm like, I'll put you
on the phone.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
I've never done that.
Speaker 6 (43:55):
Myself, but I wouldn't put down on an airplane, bathroom
floor up things that literally like are in the quarantines.
Speaker 4 (44:03):
Well, even I was trying to get something out of
overhead and you know, you do weird shit when you're
on your own, your sleep drive. So I was getting
something out. I think I put her on the thing
of like the floor of the plane because the yeah, yeah,
put her on the wing and was like, she'll be right.
And then this man walked in traveling on his own
and goes, well, now she's got every illness And I
was like, do you want to hold it? Like I
(44:25):
only have so many arms. I'm trying to get her
bottle or she's going to scream this plane down a
fun I just I was like, it's good for immune system.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
Yeah, it was just spit on it.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
It was so it was so hard. And then because
obviously they don't even have their own seats, so they're
just on Yeah, that was really bonding.
Speaker 1 (44:47):
I always always talk about I think you feel the
same ash that the newborn phase is so blurry. I
can't really remember in the first twelve months. This is
a hard question to answer, first twelve months. What is
the best part if you can remember, if anything sticks out,
and what is the worst part.
Speaker 5 (45:05):
The best part is the slowness.
Speaker 4 (45:08):
I loved the slowness of like getting up in the
morning and like making coffee and then just sitting there
and just watching I remember the first time I watched
her watch something else, like you watch her Discovery Shadow
and you just feel like I could watch you.
Speaker 5 (45:23):
It's amazing. Or even at night past a plane and
they're like plan and they do like their little point.
Speaker 4 (45:31):
Or even at night I would get her up for
like she'd be out for her feet and you'd turn
a lamp on and you could just see her being
like what is that shadow? And like you watch all
the synapses connected.
Speaker 3 (45:41):
Loved it.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
Yeah. Oh the moment Luna found a ceiling fan, she
just fell in love and she was like has anyone
And then you look at it and you're like it
is pretty cool, cool and you just lay there watching
things being like it's not right now.
Speaker 4 (46:03):
So that was definitely the best thing, Like the way
it makes you look at everything differently, even like you
go to the beach and you watch them play with
the sand and water and everything, and you're like, yeah,
that's the literal.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
You eat the sand.
Speaker 4 (46:16):
Oh yeah, absolutely, so many firsts sand And it's like
you didn't need anything on your play.
Speaker 1 (46:26):
Is there a phase that you think You look back
and you think, I would never want to go through
that again, but obviously you may.
Speaker 4 (46:31):
Like I think about that eleven month stage, and that
was really hard, Like I think her not being able
to walk, yet not being able to properly kind of
articulate herself. She's quite age, she's very cautious and risk averse,
but she's Clinging's not the right word. But you know,
you can't put them down, Like I find that probably
a bit a bit hard, But every stage had its
(46:54):
it's good bits, I think because you see them developing
and yeah, you.
Speaker 6 (46:58):
Mentioned and couldn't walk, probably couldn't articulate. They get so
frustrated and that now that you said that, that reminds
me of like that time when Oscar couldn't move, couldn't
really talk, and he was.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Just frustrat because he wanted to get up and move.
Speaker 5 (47:12):
But you check less and you're like you're hungry something, yeah, yeah,
and you just you can't work. There's a there's a
stage where it's like if they're crying, all they want
is milk, really, and then there's a stage where you're like,
I think you're bored and like you can't when coated,
(47:33):
I don't know how to entertain.
Speaker 2 (47:34):
You because you're like they either ship themselves, they need
to burp, they need to eat, and all of a sudden,
all these other emotions.
Speaker 4 (47:39):
I found that quite a simple stage. I think like
that that part was easy. But but yeah, you get
to a new stage where the frustrations are new and
the grumbling is new, and you're just trying.
Speaker 1 (47:52):
To work it out. This is going to go back
to when you were pregnant. I was just wondering if
there was anything in those moments where you were really
ruggling that Luca did which really helped you.
Speaker 4 (48:04):
I think that him when you're in it, sometimes you
don't know how bad it is, or how dark it is,
or how clear it is that you're not coping. Having
that person do the admin, I would never have sent
that email to my obstetrition and midwife like that was
him and then him being like, We're driving you to
(48:24):
the appointment and I'm feeling that script for you, and
like he was just very on that and I think
he actually at one stage went through my diary and
just went, we're not doing this and we're not doing this,
and like was really I was about thirty five weeks
pregnant and I got the flu na remember that got
the flu and the and covid y, Yeah, I got
(48:47):
the hybrid and I just remember, like, and you're coughing
and your ribs are hurting anyway, Like it was awful.
And that week, like as soon as that happened, he
was like, all right, I'm doing all the admint Like
that's what he's really really good at. I didn't have
to think about anything.
Speaker 3 (49:02):
You need someone to take charge to that mind.
Speaker 4 (49:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't even have the energy to
cancel my week like he was.
Speaker 5 (49:08):
He was very very good like that.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
Yeah sounds good, sounds great.
Speaker 5 (49:12):
Yeah he is. He's very very good.
Speaker 4 (49:14):
And he's such like to watch his relationship with Luna,
like that's one of the greatest joys.
Speaker 5 (49:20):
They are best friends.
Speaker 3 (49:22):
How would you describe him as a dad?
Speaker 4 (49:25):
He is like, I can't imagine him not being a
girl dad like, because that's what he he is. And
our dog Chile is also a girl, so he's just
like but Luna is him as a child, and he
he knows, like he'll get up every morning and he'll
talk Luna through her day because he's like, I remember
(49:45):
like and this as a kid, I needed to know
that what time I had swimming and who was coming
to visit, that I was going to have this. And
they are identical, like lucas a very ordered, tidy person,
and Luna will go and pick up a wed ex
and start like just cleaning them and I'm times or like,
go upstairs and I've left something at the bottom of
(50:06):
the stairs and she'll point at it, like that'll be
pierced if you don't bring that. She's just yeah, they're
so so alike. But I think about who I dated
in my twenties and had some awful people I dated.
But there have been moments at three am when the
baby's sick or the baby's crying or whatever, and I've
(50:28):
watched Luca get out of bed and I'm like that's
the mark of a good husband, like it were any
of those the type of man who would have got.
Speaker 5 (50:35):
Out of bed.
Speaker 4 (50:36):
No if he write this down yet, like that's to Yeah,
the person who will like, you know, drop everything and
jump go to the hospital because we need to or
whatever like that's been.
Speaker 5 (50:51):
Yeah, And you don't know how someone's going to be
as a dad to you.
Speaker 3 (50:53):
Yeah, and you mentioned me. I was saying, I'm too
young to be a granddad. How is she adapted?
Speaker 5 (51:00):
Oh, my goodness, like the best grammar in the world.
Speaker 6 (51:03):
She is.
Speaker 4 (51:03):
They have Fridays that they have together, and she has
like she's got her this like a baby kitchen, like
one of those ties where they like.
Speaker 5 (51:12):
Make the eggs and stuff.
Speaker 3 (51:13):
No real heat.
Speaker 4 (51:14):
No, they have like their own activities and their own
books that they read. And like, you know, me is
very into clothes and I could not. Luna would wear
a potato sack every day for up to me. But
she comes home and these two two's with like like
just dresses her up and they love it together.
Speaker 5 (51:35):
Yeah, they're just best mates.
Speaker 6 (51:36):
It's funny when you see grandparents form their own relationships
with you.
Speaker 5 (51:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (51:40):
Yeah, And at first you have to be like she
likes this, and then by the end they're telling you
and I'm like, oh, I didn't know she liked the today.
Speaker 3 (51:52):
Yeah, And it's like it's funny when you watch it
from the outside looking in, just like the little inside
jokes that they have.
Speaker 4 (51:59):
Yes, and even like obviously I met my father in
law when he was my CEO, Like he was an
intimidating you take him very seriously, highly intelligent man, right
like he is a business guy, very smart. And now
I see Luna be like she calls him butter, I
don't know, just to like insult him, Butter sit.
Speaker 5 (52:20):
He goes and sits.
Speaker 4 (52:22):
And then the other day she goes, who we bump
them and just to like make fun of him or whatever,
and to watch him just piss himself at some of
the things she says. And I'm like, it's no one
in the world that could speak to him like that,
and yet she gets away with us like she has
him tied around her little finger. And it's like the
loveliest thing to watch because I don't think that men
(52:42):
prepare for it like women do, especially like my dad
and my father in law had no idea how their
lives would change. The grandmothers knew they were prepared for
how much they were going to love these babies.
Speaker 3 (52:54):
And it's funny with the granddads, how much how much
love there.
Speaker 6 (52:58):
Is there right like it with a no prep and
then all of a sudden they've got a grand especially
a granddaughter, they're like, oh, they just they turn into
a different person. I turned into a different person when
I had a daughter. And then like I can see
my dad with my daughter, and it's.
Speaker 5 (53:17):
Like, where is this more there was?
Speaker 4 (53:23):
Dad was over the other day, like chasing Luna around,
because at first they're apprehensive, especially girls. I think around grandfathers,
maybe there's a bit just a bit of apprehension and whatever.
And now Luna's just fallen in love with dad and
he was chasing around the house and then he left
and Luna goes, oh, man.
Speaker 5 (53:40):
By that was just like I was like, I might
not tell doubt about the old man comments.
Speaker 1 (53:50):
And the podcast on a question, which is when Luna
is all grown up, she's no longer living at home,
what is the one thing you would want her to
remember about the house that she grew up in.
Speaker 5 (54:00):
That is such a good question.
Speaker 3 (54:03):
I think.
Speaker 4 (54:05):
I just I want her to remember that we had
a lot of fun. But most of all, I want
her to remember that whoever she was, whoever she was
first thing in the morning, or like you know, when
she was two or six or twelve, was just enough,
like her parents loved her, regardless of whatever results she
(54:25):
brought home from school, whatever she ends up doing with
her life.
Speaker 5 (54:29):
It's like.
Speaker 4 (54:31):
I remember someone a lot wiser than me once saying this,
It's like the world is where you go to challenge
yourself and get rejected. Your house is where you go
for unconditional love. Like that's where you go, where you
go no matter what I do, what I say, these
people love me. And I just want her to feel that,
Like I don't think you can say I love you
enough to a child, and you know she hears that
(54:55):
so much. So I want her to just go into
the world with that confidence and then take the risks outside.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Very good, Jesse, Thank you so much for jumping on
the podcast, and I do have to say, because we
will give you a great spiel of the intro. It's
amazing what you've achieved in media, so a huge well
done from Ash and myself, and also for being such
an amazing mom.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (55:24):
You know what I love more than anything. Yes, I
love it.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Your pants are.
Speaker 1 (55:31):
Also, it's nice to talk to someone who was just
so intelligent.
Speaker 3 (55:35):
You're like, what do you mean? What do I mean?
Speaker 1 (55:39):
You're very smart? But I mean, hey, none of us
went to university. Did you finish school?
Speaker 5 (55:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (55:46):
No, no you didn't.
Speaker 6 (55:47):
Ye.
Speaker 3 (55:48):
We didn't even lie about it.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
We just spoke to a best selling author. Ash, we've
got a book, kid's books in a different league. Let's
admit it.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
Okay, I'll let that one slide.
Speaker 6 (56:00):
If you've enjoyed this episode, please like, share, review, leave
a little star review.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
I'm not even going to say please. I'm just going
to say, do it pretty please, do it right now?
Actually that's mean, isn't it pretty?
Speaker 3 (56:10):
Please?
Speaker 1 (56:11):
Yeah? It would be. It would be nice. If you
haven't subscribed to us, just tap that subscribe button or else.
That's that's a bit threatening. Okay, how can I make
it softer? We would appreciate it. That sounds really like condescending,
doesn't it just I would really appreciate it. Go going, go, go,
(56:33):
you yank you going left to review right. Also follow
us on social media. Two doting dads across TikTok Instagram
and of course they're Facebook. Let's Go Bye. Two Doting
Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia
(56:54):
and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 6 (56:57):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and in that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestrate Islander
peoples today
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