October 6, 2024 • 37 mins
Have you ever wondered why so many millennials find themselves drawn to toxic relationships? In this weeks episode of the FIT(ish) bonus series Millennials Need Therapy, co-hosts Phoebe Parsons and Sheena Schuy dissect the tumultuous romance between Sex and The City's Carrie Bradshaw and Mr. Big and its lasting impact on how we view love. Despite the glamour and allure, their on-again, off-again relationship set a troubling precedent that many young adults find themselves mirroring today.
Why do we chase after red flags? What lessons did we learn from this iconic duo that keep us captivated by chaos? Join Phoebe and Sheena for a candid discussion on the allure of toxic love and how it has shaped our understanding of romance in the modern age.If you like the Podcast, rate it, write a review and follow on Apple or Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
For more follow Phoebe Parsons on Instagram and Sheena Schuy on Instagram
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Apoge Production. Welcome to Millennials Need Therapy, where we unpack
some of the most unhinged moments and cultural chaos that
left an entire generation in dire need of some serious therapy.
I'm your co host Phoebe Parsons, a pointersential millennial who
(00:26):
was raised on the Internet and uses means as a
genuine coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm Sheena. I'm a licensed therapist and burnout expert who
is here to attempt to help every millennial stuck in
an existential crisis try and make sense.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Of it all. Today we're in therapy for toxic relationships.
Why is it that millennials run toward red flags like
their green I blame carrying mister Big, one of the
most iconic, albeit most toxic relationships of our generation. As millennials,
(01:01):
we've grown up romanticizing toxic relationships like carries and bigs,
leaving us stuck in a cycle of chasing emotionally unavailable people,
which is exactly why so many of us now need
therapy to help break the pattern.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Why wasn't it me, Carrie, No, seriously, I really need to.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Hear you say it.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I mean, don't move for me?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Well, why would I move to Paris if it wasn't
for you. No, I'm just saying I don't want you
to uproot your life and expect anything.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I am such an idiot.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So what's going on? Where are you?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I was out front, I just left.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I can't do this. I'm giggling as you do this
intro because I think, thinking back to it, we all
idolize that relationship, especially because a lot of us were
young and influential, and Carrie was writing for Vogue and
doing all the things like I know that a lot
of my friends and I idolized her, not realizing how
(02:02):
toxic that whole thing was.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Right, What was it about that relationship that made it
so captivating? You know how? There were those relationships almost
like the rotten Rachel and there was just something about
them that you just could not look away. So for
six seasons, we were absolutely enamored by this relationship between
carrying mister Big.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
The drama.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
We loved the drama. If they just sailed off happily
into the sunset in season one or two, it wouldn't
make much of a story. Unfortunately, and you know, the
healthy ones in that series didn't get much airtime, right.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So true. Can I just ask you a question, when,
like in real time, when you were watching that show,
were you mister Big or were you Aiden?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I've always been in Aiden, have you?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
But I liked mister Big too, like I liked both
of them, But when Aiden came on the scene, I've
always been in Aiden, and I think that's just he's
more of my type.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, okay, well this is why I'm the one who's
in therapy because still to this day, I would choose
mister Big over Aiden, which I think really sums up
how fucked up millennials can be when it comes to
this kind of stuff. So let's talk about how their
toxic dynamic kind of became really romanticized in pop culture
and how it influenced our view on relationships. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Absolutely, so, Carrie and Big were the quintessential anxious attachment
and avoidant attachment. They summarized that cycle. So you couldn't
make a more perfect example of what that looks like.
So Carrie being the anxious style of attachment, him mister
Big being the avoidance style of attachment, and you know
(03:49):
that whole scenario playing out of him being hot and
cold and her always leaning in and her being quite
emotional at times in him pulling back even more when
she was emotional. That happens in anxious avoidant relationships.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And I actually think, looking back in hindsight, that you
call it avoid an attachment. But in me, from a
non therapist point of view, I would actually call mister
Big the og fuck boy.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
He is right because he again, when we think about
animals in the wild, and you know, the birds who
dance and have all the feathers and all the colors,
other fuck boys.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So, yeah, so the birds who make nests and do
the dance and do the colors, they just want to fuck,
whereas that the other birds who like fully build a
nest and do all of that, they don't. They don't
dance like that.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
They're like the long term birds.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Someone go references and quote me on this, But that's.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
How that's fascinating happens in.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
The animal kingdom do situationships. Yeah, But the thing about
him is he fits that status, right.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
He's you know, tall, duck.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Handsome, rich, you know, mysterious. And that's the thing that
avoidant mystery really pulls you in of. I wonder what
he's doing, I wonder what he's thinking. Versus an Aiden,
which is a very not like that where it's like
I know what he's doing and I know what he's thinking,
and what's that that's not fun?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And I think he was like that from the get go,
Like he was always very upfront with not really wanting
a relationship and not wanting to commit from the start.
But like you said, the more he said that to carry,
the harder she'd lean in and the harder she'd try.
And I feel like the first time we saw a
big blow up was when he just casually dropped in
(05:46):
I might have to move to Paris for a year
and her reaction to that. I think that was kind
of the first big on camera argument they had that
we kind of saw that relationship unfolding.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah yeah, and her making it about her he had
to go to Paris for work. He was very much
like I have a busy work schedule, straight from the
get go. And I think this is what we see
with Carrie in both her relationship with Big and with Aiden,
is that she was trying to love a fantasy of
(06:19):
who they were rather than who they were. So she
was trying to fantasize Big as more of an Aiden,
someone who will be at home with her, who will
have a committed relationship with her. And on the flip side,
she was trying to envision Aiden as someone who will
go to restaurants with her and go to these fancy
(06:39):
places with her. But that just wasn't him either. So
she instead of just loving the men in her life
for who they are, she was trying to make them
fit into the person she wanted them to be.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
That makes a lot of sense. And in hindsight, when
you watch Sex and the City back and I know
that I mean still to this day, I would like
in myself the most as much as I hate to
say it, to carry out of all of the girls
on that show. But really, in hindsight, she is a
very problematic character, and she is a shitty friend, a
shitty partner, So really she has just as much a
(07:11):
role to play that mister Big has to play. Yet
here's the one who was villainized throughout the entire show,
and we didn't look at her behavior.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
No we didn't, because I think in honesty, if we're
being really honest about it, she behaves how we behave
when we are in our early twenties, when we're in
our early twenties. We're still learning how serious relationships work.
Our brain kind of fully isn't developed yet, and we're
still kind of navigating who we are, our identity, our
(07:41):
identity as working women now, you know, we're still figuring
that stuff out. And so I think the way that
she acts and behaves is very much like a twenty
one year old. She's not really much. I think in
the show, she's meant to be thirty.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Five or something, right, I don't know, because that's how
old we are now, not even yet. We're still not
even thirty five.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, close, we're on the edge the precipice.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
But the way she behaves is the way I behaved
in relationships when I was twenty four twenty five, and
I was in my first stage of relationships before I
had any experience, and I had an experience that was
very similar to a carrying mister big kind of relationship.
But that was on again, off again for years and
years and years. It was toxic. All my friends knew it.
(08:26):
They hated him, but he kept me hanging on. And
I was young and I was naive. And I think
because we've grown up watching relationships like this, like toxic
relationships romanticized. It just seems like what's normal and what's
familiar to you. So I kept being like, no, I'm
going to be the girl who's going to change this guy.
(08:46):
And that's how you see Carrie behaving right throughout the
course of this show. And that never happens.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
And I think what's even more toxic is that she
lands big. In the real world, she wouldn't have that
would not have played out like that. But the problem
is so many any of us who have this anxious attachment,
who get involved with people who are an avoidant go,
you know, carrying big, make it.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
We're going to be like them.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
They were on again, off again for years, so we're
going to be like them.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
We'll make it in the end.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And we all have a friend who's like Charlotte, like
I like him, and all your other friends are like,
he's a dirt bag, but she You know, you've all
got that one friend who believes in love.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I'm often that.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Friend, but you know that friend who's like, it's like,
maybe it's this, or maybe it's that excuses things, you know,
rather than just going he's not the one.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And I wish what you could see in Sex and
the City was kind of what happened before the show
started in terms of their relationship history, because I feel
like she alludes to it once when there's a photo
of her and her dad when she's really young, but
then she says that her dad was very absent from
I think the age of about two. So then straight
away you're like, Okay, she's got daddy issues. This is
(10:01):
probably why she is clinging on to this toxic man
who kind of doesn't really value can you can tell
he doesn't really want to be in a relationship. He's
saying all the right things like I do love you.
It's not you, it's me. But at what point should
she have actually walked away? Because it wasn't just the start.
They went on to he married someone else and they
(10:22):
started having an affair, like it just kept getting worse.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And I think that's the thing, is that coming from
that clinical perspective. If we go back to attachment style,
so Carrie being anxious, him being avoidant, what we know
is anxious attachment actually develops from a parent being inconsistent,
so sometimes being warm and then sometimes being cool or
dismissive or busy. That plays out in the avoidant, so
(10:52):
an avoidant partner will play out an anxious partner's childhood
because they will be hot and cold, and that feels
really familiar. Unconsciously, it's like, oh, this is what say,
this is family, this is what it feels like.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
They're not used to a secure.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Attachment, right, and so the avoidant their childhood is very
much And this is why it tends to be more
men who are avoidant than women, but there are women
who are avoidant too. It's boys, don't cry, suck it up,
keep going. You're a princess if you can't push forward,
like push your emotions down. So an avoidant when any
(11:33):
kind of emotion arises, whether it's your emotion, whether it's
their own emotion, they shut down. They're like, emotions, what
is this too much for me? And so they pull back,
which makes the anxious.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Go, I'm going to fix this.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I'm going to lean in, like why are you pulling back?
And that's why the avoidant is hot and cold because
they're hot. And then and then emotions actually come up.
Oh I feel something for this girl or this guy,
or I'm they're expressing their emotions to me and I
don't know how to hold this. I don't know how
to manage this, so I'm just going to pull away
(12:08):
until I can figure this stuff out. And the anxious
is like, you were just sending me hot signals and
now you're sending me cold signals, and what do I
need to do to make it hot again?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So are they two attachment styles that just feed into
the bad things about each other and they should not
be together, like they should just not date each other.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I feel like there actually are lots of couples who
are anxious and avoidant, partly because of the way that
millennials were raised. A lot of women do tend to
be anxious, and a lot of men do tend to
be avoidant. So to say that that relationship dynamic work
doesn't work would be like a large percentage of the population.
Relationship dynamic doesn't work. It can work once you're aware
(12:48):
of it. Okay, So once whoever's the avoidant goes, oh shit,
I need to learn how to sit with emotions and
lean in even though this feels awful, and the anxious
attachment needs to learn Okay, I might be a little
bit highly emotional instead of always reacting, how can I
lean out a little bit more so that avoidant needs
(13:09):
to lean in a little bit more. The anxious needs
to lean out a.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Little bit more.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
While we're on that, can I ask you a question
that has just come to me. When you say it's
just the way that millennial millennials were raised. Something I
distinc they remember my parents telling me more than once.
If they said it once, they said it twenty five
times throughout my youth was if that boy's being mean
to you, it's because he likes you. Is that why
(13:36):
we're also fucked up? And we think that when a
man treats us like shit, it's because they actually like us.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It does feed into that abusive thing of look how
jealousy is of all these men talking to me, right,
that's actually a really toxic behavior. But a lot of
us go, he must love me so much if he's
getting that jealous right, Or yeah again.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
If he's mean to you he likes you.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
No, he's just being mean, right, Boys don't get told that.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
No, it's so true and it's so unfair. So we
have kind of grown up to be conditioned to just see,
because of the time that we were raised, that relationships
are just supposed to be messy and emotional and complicated.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yes, that's it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And it's also that we are too emotional, so that's
why we're getting this hot and cold. And yeah, there's
a lot that goes into why millennial women tend to
be anxious and why millennial men were raised, you know,
to sort of have that avoidant attachment.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So then let's switch the conversation from Big to Aiden.
I would say that Aiden seems like he has a
very safe attachment style. Secure secure.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, he's very safe, very secure, very boring for an anxious.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Which you'd think would work really well for her, but
in this instance it didn't. Which I'm going to say this,
and I know I'll probably get canceled for it, but
I did not like Aiden at the time. I was like, Oh,
he's so available to her, he's making it so easy,
he's not playing any games with her. Who wants someone
like that? But I can recognize how fucked up I
(15:20):
have been about relationships in the past. I'm very happy
in a five year relationship now, but back then that
did not appeal to me in the slightest. So is
that the same kind of mentality probably that someone like
Carry with an anxious attachment style would have had, But
you'd think it would be the opposite, because then he'd
make her feel safe and she wouldn't need to feel anxious.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It depends on her level of awareness. So, like we're
talking about, she acts like a twenty one year old.
Sometimes maybe if she was acting a little bit older
and actually becoming self aware and going, this is what
I do in relationships. So again, when you're a little
bit older, late twenties, early thirties, you've had a couple
of relationships, now some work, some didn't, you start to
(16:03):
have that self awareness and recognize the patterns in yourself.
So if someone like Aiden came at a point where
she was on her healing journey, sorry to have to
say it like that, I have to use it all,
but that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
True, that's no other way to explain it.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
If she was on a healing journey or self awareness journey,
whatever you want to call it, she would have wrecked.
Maybe you would hope would recognize, Hey, someone like Aiden
can really heal this anxiousness in me that I feel
comfortable with hot and cold friendships, hot and cold relationships.
Someone who's safe and secure and available to me will
teach me that I don't need that and my nervous
(16:39):
system will regulate, so over time, that anxious person they're
going to try and cause drama.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
With the secure person.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
But secure people are like, I see you, and I
know what's going on, but I'm still going to be here.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
So it's actually a really good match.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
It's a great match if she can see it for
what it is is that this person has the ability
to teach me a different way of being, which feels
really hard. It's like brushing your teeth with the sit hand,
right if a dentist is like, the reason that your
teeth are rotting is because you brush the wrong way.
You need to brush with this hand. You know it's
(17:14):
good for you, but damn, it feels so awkward at
the beginning.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
It feels wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Even that's what getting into a relationship that's healthy when
you only used to hot and cold unhealthy relationships will
feel like.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And she never really got better because I even remember
when they eventually got engaged, she wouldn't even wear the
engagement ring on her finger. Remember she wore it around
her neck on a necklace. And he was like, you're
not even wearing the engagement ring on your finger, and
she's like.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
It's closer to my heart this way, and it's like,
stop lying. Yes, the way that Carrie was with Aiden
is the way that.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Big was with her.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yes, she was unavailable to Aiden. He's like, I just
want you to just meet me where I'm at and
she's like, but I can't. And he's like, you cheated
on me with Big and she's like, he's always going
to be part of my life, you know. And we
talked about this as well. Is that why does he
have to be part of her life? They don't work together,
they have no investments together. Why does someone have to
(18:17):
be part of your life?
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So true, they have no kids together, they don't share dogs,
they don't have property together, like, there's literally nothing binding
them together. And that's I as fucked up as I
can be about relationships. I have a no cheating policy,
and if someone cheated on me, that's it, see you later.
I'm not I would never stand for someone being friends
(18:40):
with someone that they cheated on me with. That is
just not something I think when you know your self
worth like Aiden obviously did. So he ended up eventually
walking away, Thank god. That is just so selfish on
her part to not even see from his perspective, what
that would feel like exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think very much like a twenty one year old Oh,
this is my friend, and why does he have to
be part of her life? And I think it comes
back too. I hope that we get back together one day.
Why the only reason you would keep someone like that
around and disrespect your current partner is because there may
be an inkling in you of I want this to
(19:19):
work again.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And then the little bitch kissed him when they went
to Abu Dhabi. I forgot about that and cheated on
Big with what is wrong with this woman? I completely
forgot about that until you just said it.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Oh yes, so when she went to uh so this
is later on later and there much later.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
When she's married. To this point, she's married.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
To mister Big, and she goes and kisses Aiden, and
I think this is the thing, is that she lacks
self control.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
One hundred percent and also maybe a bit of self confidence.
Because something else we briefly discussed off air was after
the show finished, and in the first movie we see
them getting married and we all think, oh my god,
finally they're getting a happily ever after and he leaves
her at the altar and then she takes it back
while like she is a textbookcase of someone who needs
(20:10):
a therapist, and.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
She refuses to get therapy. I think she there's an episode.
We're going to have to pull this clip up. But
she says something like, oh, I tried a therapist and
she she didn't get me.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, she didn't get me, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So and then with her friend she goes, I don't
need therapy. I have you guys, and they're literally saying
to her, we can't handle this anymore. You need to
go and seek professional help. Again. She is a very
selfish friend.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, And I mean that's something that I see. Actually
a lot is a lot of women go, oh, retail therapy,
that's my therapy, or you know, talking with my girlfriends
is therapy, or you know, going to the ocean's my therapy.
Like no, Like, don't get me wrong, those things are
good for you, and they do regulate your nervous system,
but they're not going to increase your level of self
(20:58):
awareness the way that working objectively of some with someone will.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And unparck the trauma that you need to unp to
in turn allow yourself to have a healthy relationship.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Because here's the.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Other thing is that I know it's sort of touched
on the way that your childhood affects your attachment and
then that plays out later in relationships and friendships as well. Actually,
you often can't see your parents doing that to you.
So when I work with someone and I first point out, hey,
(21:30):
I think that there might be some anxious attachment going
on here, and then I explain how it develops. Often
there's a resistance of oh no, my parents were always
really good to me. They sent me to good schools,
and they put a roof over my head, and they
gave me food.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
And it's like, oh, but did they tell you that
they loved you not so much?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Did they tell you that you were they were proud
of you or not really? Okay, so how did you
show love? And you start to unpack that. But it's
really hard for people to see their parents in the
negative light, and we know that your parental relationship they
do really set you up for relationships later in life.
And the only way to get over that is kind
of the face it. It's they're facing that fear of
(22:14):
it's not about blaming them. They were probably doing the
best that they could, and sometimes they weren't. But regardless,
it's going, okay. I just need to have awareness around that.
It's not pulling it all up. It's not pulling up
every childhood traumatic thing.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
We don't have to do that.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
But what we do have to recognize is that there's
a pattern here that's your unconscious normal. So we need
to disrupt that pattern. And the way to do that
is by raising your awareness of it, so when you're
falling back into it, you can catch yourself and go, oh,
that's what I do. I need to choose a different
option now.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Which is where I don't think most people get to
that point you're talking about on their own, because I
was that girl for twelve years. I was always finding
these fuck boys, these dickheads, and I was falling head
over heels for them and everyone, my friends, my mom
now were like what are you doing? And I was like, no,
I love them like they're the best. And then eventually
(23:09):
I realized, oh my god, it's me. Hi, I'm the problem.
It's me, And I'm like, why are they all the same.
It's not a coincidence that they're all the same. You're
actively seeking these people out because you haven't dealt with
something or it's like that epiphany light bulb moment that
sometimes I say to you when you explain something to
me and I'm like, oh my god, that's why this
is happening to me. Can I ask you a question
(23:31):
again from a therapist standpoint, what relationship do you think
is the healthiest on the Sex and the City Show?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I would probably say Charlotte and.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
What's his name?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
It's just on the front Harry, Harry, Charlotte and Harry definitely.
And you know what, even though we joked about Steve
that Steve isn't the healthiest if Miranda was in a
healthier place because she kind of dabbles between being very
very healthy and not kind of goes between toxic and
(24:06):
not toxic. But Steve is actually a really good guy,
good dude. But I think that's the thing with Steve
and Harry. They're not the glamorous fuck boy right. One's baled,
one works at a bar, so they don't have the
status pieces of you know, Harry, he's an attractive man,
(24:27):
but for you know, they sort of played in the
show a little bit.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Compared to his Harry Chess that episode where they have
to wax his chests and they really like.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I love a.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Hairy chess, so'm I'm more that's my type.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Also, I love a dad bot. But this is us now.
I feel like when I watched the show, I was
repulsed by Harry and I was repulsed by Steve.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
When you're in your younger years, I don't know something
in your brain just isn't there. And then I don't
know men's men now, you know, you know, But I
think that's the thing is that with Harry and Steve,
they're the healthiest in that whole show, and yet they're
very much played as not good enough. You know, Harry's
(25:10):
not attractive enough, and he doesn't meet up to Charlotte's
ex who was you know, I can't remember his name either, Trey, Yes, sir, Yes, you.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Couldn't even get a motherfucking direction.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes, exactly, Like you know, that's I always talk about
four key pillars of a relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
And sex is one of them.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And so if you're missing a pillar, it's like a
table missing a leg. It's like the whole table's gonna
be off balance.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
What are the four pillars?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So the four pillars are cause heirs, communication, and consummation.
So CAUs are making sure you actually have similar core values.
So core values are things like integrity or freedom or
adventure similar. You don't have to have the exact same,
but somewhat similar in recognizing, Okay, Phoebe's full value is freedom.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
So what that means is.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
If she wants to go and book a holiday at
the spur of the moment, I recognize that that's a
core value to her, and I need to love that
and recognize that in her right. So cool cares is
your goals? Basically, what are your won three five year goals.
Because the amount of couples that get into a relationship
(26:24):
get married but haven't talked about are we going to
have kids and then break up because one wants one
and one doesn't. That should be like a first six
month conversation. Yeah, and I don't get me wrong, not
too early, because that's the kind of state.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, are we having kids?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
No, no no, But it.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Is like there's certain sort of big things you've got
to talk about, marriage, kids, religion, even those sorts of things.
So cares like where do you see yourself?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Again?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
This is important because if your partner has a job
like big, he's traveling all over the world, and he's like,
I'm not giving up my job.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
This is my job.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I travel all over the world. And you're a Carrie
who's like, but if you love me, you'll quit your
job and come stay with me.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
No, no, no, So she writes a column she could
do that from anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
The internet was a new thing back when. But I
guess that's the thing. Is that making sure that your
goals and your dreams is somewhat aligned. So again, some
people see having kids ten years down the track, another
person might see it two years down the track, so
making sure that at least they're aligned. Third is communication,
which again love languages, attachment styles, where do you meet
(27:38):
each other, making sure you have a regular check in,
almost like a date of like, so, how do we
feel things are, how's our sex life, how's this, how's that,
what's working, what's not? And then finally is a consummation,
which is all about sex and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, that's really healthy because I remember, Yeah, when
I was watching the show, I was very much team Big.
But in hindsight, now that I know what I know
and I'm a little bit older, Big reminded me a
lot of my stepdad, the time, So I feel like
maybe that was a really familiar like it was familiar
to me to kind of see that relationship. And my
mum even says they're not together anymore, But my mum
(28:14):
even says he was very mister Big, So that relationship
was actually role modeled to me, not only on TV,
but in my own house. They even look the same,
like they even look very much the same. It's crazy,
but I Smith loved Smith Smith, and I think he
is such a beautiful person, and I think that was
(28:35):
actually a very beautiful relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I cannot believe I didn't mention that he was incredible. Yeah,
they were incredible, But even.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Like you were saying before, what he didn't have was
initially he got it in the movie, but when he
was a struggling actor, he didn't have the money. And
that's what held her back initially from kind of launching
with it and really like rolling with it.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And also he was significantly younger than her, so you know,
it was binging up her own insecurities.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
About her age.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That's right when she got the gray pubic hair.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I forgot about that. But I think that's the thing
is that, again, relationships can sometimes feel about status, and
so if you're with someone who makes your status older
or aging or whatever. And you know, she was in
the press because of that relationship, so they were commenting
on her appearance and YadA YadA. You know, it was
(29:31):
just playing into her insecurities.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, but then when I watch it back in hindsight,
I think I would choose Harry any day of the week.
They have fun together, they laugh together, they respect each other,
they have a healthy sex life. I love that he's
an Alarican and they can have a laugh together, and
they don't take things toast like so seriously, and I
feel like that is such a beautiful, healthy relationship. Have
(29:54):
you ever had toxic relationships or have you always been
in this space? Because did you study straight off the bat? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
So I went to UNI when I was seventy for psychology,
which I just think a seventeen year old should not
be studying psychology at QT at castleedime, if you remember
that case.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
I did one semester of psych when I was at
UNI and that was enough for me.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
But no, I think that's why. In another episode we
talked about therapists seed therapists because we have blind spots.
Everyone does and I could learn about attachment and trauma,
but it's not until you know words tell but experienced teachers.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's like I can have a framework for what's going on,
but I don't really get it till I've gone through
it myself. So, yeah, I dated lots of toxic people,
but I had a lot of self concept and self
esteem issues, a lot of low self worth. You know,
I had my own stuff, which is you know, to
be honest, a lot of people who study psychology, social work, counseling,
(31:00):
we got our own shit to deal with. We got
our own trauma, which is what drags us into these
helping professions because we go I don't want anyone to
ever feel like I've felt. I don't want anyone to
deal with I deal with so a lot of awareness raising,
and that's the thing we can see in others what
we can't always see in ourselves.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Which is why you need not only friends, but a
therapist because they are completely objective and they will tell
you the truth. Do you find that a lot of
your clients are now in therapy to help with toxic
relationships and kind of unlearning those behaviors or figuring out
more about where it's come from within them.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Absolutely, So I really specialize in anxiety and burnout. And
as we talked about, I really work with a lot
of high performing women.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
So business owners.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
You know, women have got a lot on their plate. Hang,
it's so why they're so anxious, But they're probably anxious
because they're a high achiever. Anyway, it's a big cycle.
But it's amazing how in the last few years in
my own private practice, how women will come for anxiety
and then when we start unpacking things, it's actually their
relationship that's driving the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I think everyone can relate to that in essence, and
even if you're not in a relationship currently that's making
you feel like that. I think we all have been
at one point or another. I can think of two
in particular that like ruined me. But I think you'll
always look back and remember what your first big heartbreak
(32:29):
felt like, and it, oh my god, it's horrific.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Oh it's awful. Yeah, I still get the gut feelings,
like the visceral feelings.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
When you think about it, it's so sad, isn't it.
So what can millennials then learn from watching these relationships
from a new perspective or with a different lens.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Well, I think a lot of us are getting much
more aware of attachment style.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
But also just because you might be aware, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Mean you know how you're playing it out always and
again remembering that it plays out with your own children,
it plays out with your parents, which where it came
from in the first place. So that's really confronting. I
think the thirties is when thirties and then leading into
the forties as well, recognizing Okay, my parents maybe didn't
(33:19):
do the best by me, and I now have to
figure out how I feel about that. But they're aging,
so now they need me, but I don't know how
I feel about them, so I know. So I think
that's what's coming up as well, is now analyzing those relationships.
But also I think what I do love And this
(33:41):
may be again a bit controversial, but I think more
millennials aren't so scared of divorce anymore. I think it
was ride or die when it came to marriage before,
and I think there's more of this idea. I mean,
even for me, I've gone through a separation myself with kids,
and it's scary for sure. It's like the hardest thing
(34:03):
you're ever going to go through. But I think more
and more people are recognizing but I'll live again, and
you can have more than one love in your lifetime.
Like I think there used to be this idea if
you get one love in your lifetime and if it ends,
you know, you might have relationships, but they're not going
to be your one love. And actually you can love.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
More than once.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
That is so true because my parents' divorce when I
was five, which was not that common back in the day,
So when I was younger, it was kind of like, oh,
Phoebe's parents are divorce, like that poor thing. Whereas now
I've got friends who are onto their set. I'm going
to a wedding in two weeks. It's their second marriage.
I'm like, fuck yeah. I think that we're just at
this point now where it's not the be all end
(34:44):
all we and we have enough self worth to know
when to leave something as opposed to just staying in
it or the kids, or because you're settled, or because
you don't think you can do it on your own,
or because it's not or you're not worth it.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Absolutely, and I think you know the most important decision
you're making your life is who you share your life with,
because it's the person you come home to at night.
It's a person you've vent about work. It's a person
who goes phoebe. You know you're changing, work's working for
you or look at you, you're thriving, like, look at
what this work has done for you. You know you we
(35:22):
all need that. Whereas imagine if you have someone who
doesn't like you accelerating or feels like they're losing you
because you're becoming bigger and bolder and out there, and
you know, it really affects all of that.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
What is some advice that you would give to any
millennial listeners right now about breaking free from toxic relationships?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Lean into the fear. It is going to be really
scary if your gut has been turning during this episode
because you're like, oh oh, oh no, or you think
of a friend who's coming up where you're like, this
is my best friend or this is my cousin or
my sister. Oh my gosh, like I can see this
(36:02):
pattern playing out, or again you saw of realizing, oh shit,
that was my parents and now that's how it's played
out for me. It can change, and I think you
have to be okay with facing that icky gut feeling.
That's the fear talking to you. It's not a bad thing.
Don't try to drink it away, spend it away, retail
(36:23):
therapy away. It's telling you something. So's if it's one
of your loved ones going through this. Don't be scared
to have that difficult conversation going hey girl, you know
I love you, right, I got to tell you something.
Though they might hate you for a little bit, but
would you feel worse if you didn't have that conversation
(36:46):
and they end up marrying that person, being with them
for twenty years, and then they get divorced twenty years
down the track, and you sort of said I knew
from the beginning, but I didn't say anything.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
And I can tell you, as someone who was the
carry in my friendship group for years and years and years,
who had had that conversation had to me multiple times,
I can tell you I hated my friends for saying
that to me at the time, but a couple of
months later, when everything turned to even bigger shit, you
eventually thank them. So do it and don't look to
(37:17):
carry Bradshaw for romantic advice. Fashion advice one hundred percent
relationship advice no move on agreed,
Apoge Production. Welcome to Millennials Need Therapy, where we unpack
some of the most unhinged moments and cultural chaos that
left an entire generation in dire need of some serious therapy.
I'm your co host Phoebe Parsons, a pointersential millennial who
(00:26):
was raised on the Internet and uses means as a
genuine coping mechanism.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I'm Sheena. I'm a licensed therapist and burnout expert who
is here to attempt to help every millennial stuck in
an existential crisis try and make sense.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Of it all. Today we're in therapy for toxic relationships.
Why is it that millennials run toward red flags like
their green I blame carrying mister Big, one of the
most iconic, albeit most toxic relationships of our generation. As millennials,
(01:01):
we've grown up romanticizing toxic relationships like carries and bigs,
leaving us stuck in a cycle of chasing emotionally unavailable people,
which is exactly why so many of us now need
therapy to help break the pattern.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Why wasn't it me, Carrie, No, seriously, I really need to.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Hear you say it.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I mean, don't move for me?
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Well, why would I move to Paris if it wasn't
for you. No, I'm just saying I don't want you
to uproot your life and expect anything.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
I am such an idiot.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So what's going on? Where are you?
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I was out front, I just left.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
I can't do this. I'm giggling as you do this
intro because I think, thinking back to it, we all
idolize that relationship, especially because a lot of us were
young and influential, and Carrie was writing for Vogue and
doing all the things like I know that a lot
of my friends and I idolized her, not realizing how
(02:02):
toxic that whole thing was.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Right, What was it about that relationship that made it
so captivating? You know how? There were those relationships almost
like the rotten Rachel and there was just something about
them that you just could not look away. So for
six seasons, we were absolutely enamored by this relationship between
carrying mister Big.
Speaker 3 (02:23):
The drama.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
We loved the drama. If they just sailed off happily
into the sunset in season one or two, it wouldn't
make much of a story. Unfortunately, and you know, the
healthy ones in that series didn't get much airtime, right.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
So true. Can I just ask you a question, when,
like in real time, when you were watching that show,
were you mister Big or were you Aiden?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I've always been in Aiden, have you?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
But I liked mister Big too, like I liked both
of them, But when Aiden came on the scene, I've
always been in Aiden, and I think that's just he's
more of my type.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yeah, okay, well this is why I'm the one who's
in therapy because still to this day, I would choose
mister Big over Aiden, which I think really sums up
how fucked up millennials can be when it comes to
this kind of stuff. So let's talk about how their
toxic dynamic kind of became really romanticized in pop culture
and how it influenced our view on relationships. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Absolutely, so, Carrie and Big were the quintessential anxious attachment
and avoidant attachment. They summarized that cycle. So you couldn't
make a more perfect example of what that looks like.
So Carrie being the anxious style of attachment, him mister
Big being the avoidance style of attachment, and you know
(03:49):
that whole scenario playing out of him being hot and
cold and her always leaning in and her being quite
emotional at times in him pulling back even more when
she was emotional. That happens in anxious avoidant relationships.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
And I actually think, looking back in hindsight, that you
call it avoid an attachment. But in me, from a
non therapist point of view, I would actually call mister
Big the og fuck boy.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
He is right because he again, when we think about
animals in the wild, and you know, the birds who
dance and have all the feathers and all the colors,
other fuck boys.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Right.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
So, yeah, so the birds who make nests and do
the dance and do the colors, they just want to fuck,
whereas that the other birds who like fully build a
nest and do all of that, they don't. They don't
dance like that.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
They're like the long term birds.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Someone go references and quote me on this, But that's.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
How that's fascinating happens in.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
The animal kingdom do situationships. Yeah, But the thing about
him is he fits that status, right.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
He's you know, tall, duck.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Handsome, rich, you know, mysterious. And that's the thing that
avoidant mystery really pulls you in of. I wonder what
he's doing, I wonder what he's thinking. Versus an Aiden,
which is a very not like that where it's like
I know what he's doing and I know what he's thinking,
and what's that that's not fun?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
And I think he was like that from the get go,
Like he was always very upfront with not really wanting
a relationship and not wanting to commit from the start.
But like you said, the more he said that to carry,
the harder she'd lean in and the harder she'd try.
And I feel like the first time we saw a
big blow up was when he just casually dropped in
(05:46):
I might have to move to Paris for a year
and her reaction to that. I think that was kind
of the first big on camera argument they had that
we kind of saw that relationship unfolding.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah yeah, and her making it about her he had
to go to Paris for work. He was very much
like I have a busy work schedule, straight from the
get go. And I think this is what we see
with Carrie in both her relationship with Big and with Aiden,
is that she was trying to love a fantasy of
(06:19):
who they were rather than who they were. So she
was trying to fantasize Big as more of an Aiden,
someone who will be at home with her, who will
have a committed relationship with her. And on the flip side,
she was trying to envision Aiden as someone who will
go to restaurants with her and go to these fancy
(06:39):
places with her. But that just wasn't him either. So
she instead of just loving the men in her life
for who they are, she was trying to make them
fit into the person she wanted them to be.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
That makes a lot of sense. And in hindsight, when
you watch Sex and the City back and I know
that I mean still to this day, I would like
in myself the most as much as I hate to
say it, to carry out of all of the girls
on that show. But really, in hindsight, she is a
very problematic character, and she is a shitty friend, a
shitty partner, So really she has just as much a
(07:11):
role to play that mister Big has to play. Yet
here's the one who was villainized throughout the entire show,
and we didn't look at her behavior.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
No we didn't, because I think in honesty, if we're
being really honest about it, she behaves how we behave
when we are in our early twenties, when we're in
our early twenties. We're still learning how serious relationships work.
Our brain kind of fully isn't developed yet, and we're
still kind of navigating who we are, our identity, our
(07:41):
identity as working women now, you know, we're still figuring
that stuff out. And so I think the way that
she acts and behaves is very much like a twenty
one year old. She's not really much. I think in
the show, she's meant to be thirty.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
Five or something, right, I don't know, because that's how
old we are now, not even yet. We're still not
even thirty five.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Yeah, close, we're on the edge the precipice.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
But the way she behaves is the way I behaved
in relationships when I was twenty four twenty five, and
I was in my first stage of relationships before I
had any experience, and I had an experience that was
very similar to a carrying mister big kind of relationship.
But that was on again, off again for years and
years and years. It was toxic. All my friends knew it.
(08:26):
They hated him, but he kept me hanging on. And
I was young and I was naive. And I think
because we've grown up watching relationships like this, like toxic
relationships romanticized. It just seems like what's normal and what's
familiar to you. So I kept being like, no, I'm
going to be the girl who's going to change this guy.
(08:46):
And that's how you see Carrie behaving right throughout the
course of this show. And that never happens.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
And I think what's even more toxic is that she
lands big. In the real world, she wouldn't have that
would not have played out like that. But the problem
is so many any of us who have this anxious attachment,
who get involved with people who are an avoidant go,
you know, carrying big, make it.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
We're going to be like them.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
They were on again, off again for years, so we're
going to be like them.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
We'll make it in the end.
Speaker 2 (09:17):
And we all have a friend who's like Charlotte, like
I like him, and all your other friends are like,
he's a dirt bag, but she You know, you've all
got that one friend who believes in love.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
I'm often that.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Friend, but you know that friend who's like, it's like,
maybe it's this, or maybe it's that excuses things, you know,
rather than just going he's not the one.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
And I wish what you could see in Sex and
the City was kind of what happened before the show
started in terms of their relationship history, because I feel
like she alludes to it once when there's a photo
of her and her dad when she's really young, but
then she says that her dad was very absent from
I think the age of about two. So then straight
away you're like, Okay, she's got daddy issues. This is
(10:01):
probably why she is clinging on to this toxic man
who kind of doesn't really value can you can tell
he doesn't really want to be in a relationship. He's
saying all the right things like I do love you.
It's not you, it's me. But at what point should
she have actually walked away? Because it wasn't just the start.
They went on to he married someone else and they
(10:22):
started having an affair, like it just kept getting worse.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
And I think that's the thing, is that coming from
that clinical perspective. If we go back to attachment style,
so Carrie being anxious, him being avoidant, what we know
is anxious attachment actually develops from a parent being inconsistent,
so sometimes being warm and then sometimes being cool or
dismissive or busy. That plays out in the avoidant, so
(10:52):
an avoidant partner will play out an anxious partner's childhood
because they will be hot and cold, and that feels
really familiar. Unconsciously, it's like, oh, this is what say,
this is family, this is what it feels like.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
They're not used to a secure.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Attachment, right, and so the avoidant their childhood is very
much And this is why it tends to be more
men who are avoidant than women, but there are women
who are avoidant too. It's boys, don't cry, suck it up,
keep going. You're a princess if you can't push forward,
like push your emotions down. So an avoidant when any
(11:33):
kind of emotion arises, whether it's your emotion, whether it's
their own emotion, they shut down. They're like, emotions, what
is this too much for me? And so they pull back,
which makes the anxious.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Go, I'm going to fix this.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
I'm going to lean in, like why are you pulling back?
And that's why the avoidant is hot and cold because
they're hot. And then and then emotions actually come up.
Oh I feel something for this girl or this guy,
or I'm they're expressing their emotions to me and I
don't know how to hold this. I don't know how
to manage this, so I'm just going to pull away
(12:08):
until I can figure this stuff out. And the anxious
is like, you were just sending me hot signals and
now you're sending me cold signals, and what do I
need to do to make it hot again?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So are they two attachment styles that just feed into
the bad things about each other and they should not
be together, like they should just not date each other.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I feel like there actually are lots of couples who
are anxious and avoidant, partly because of the way that
millennials were raised. A lot of women do tend to
be anxious, and a lot of men do tend to
be avoidant. So to say that that relationship dynamic work
doesn't work would be like a large percentage of the population.
Relationship dynamic doesn't work. It can work once you're aware
(12:48):
of it. Okay, So once whoever's the avoidant goes, oh shit,
I need to learn how to sit with emotions and
lean in even though this feels awful, and the anxious
attachment needs to learn Okay, I might be a little
bit highly emotional instead of always reacting, how can I
lean out a little bit more so that avoidant needs
(13:09):
to lean in a little bit more. The anxious needs
to lean out a.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Little bit more.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
While we're on that, can I ask you a question
that has just come to me. When you say it's
just the way that millennial millennials were raised. Something I
distinc they remember my parents telling me more than once.
If they said it once, they said it twenty five
times throughout my youth was if that boy's being mean
to you, it's because he likes you. Is that why
(13:36):
we're also fucked up? And we think that when a
man treats us like shit, it's because they actually like us.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
It does feed into that abusive thing of look how
jealousy is of all these men talking to me, right,
that's actually a really toxic behavior. But a lot of
us go, he must love me so much if he's
getting that jealous right, Or yeah again.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
If he's mean to you he likes you.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
No, he's just being mean, right, Boys don't get told that.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
No, it's so true and it's so unfair. So we
have kind of grown up to be conditioned to just see,
because of the time that we were raised, that relationships
are just supposed to be messy and emotional and complicated.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Yes, that's it.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
And it's also that we are too emotional, so that's
why we're getting this hot and cold. And yeah, there's
a lot that goes into why millennial women tend to
be anxious and why millennial men were raised, you know,
to sort of have that avoidant attachment.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
So then let's switch the conversation from Big to Aiden.
I would say that Aiden seems like he has a
very safe attachment style. Secure secure.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah, he's very safe, very secure, very boring for an anxious.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
Which you'd think would work really well for her, but
in this instance it didn't. Which I'm going to say this,
and I know I'll probably get canceled for it, but
I did not like Aiden at the time. I was like, Oh,
he's so available to her, he's making it so easy,
he's not playing any games with her. Who wants someone
like that? But I can recognize how fucked up I
(15:20):
have been about relationships in the past. I'm very happy
in a five year relationship now, but back then that
did not appeal to me in the slightest. So is
that the same kind of mentality probably that someone like
Carry with an anxious attachment style would have had, But
you'd think it would be the opposite, because then he'd
make her feel safe and she wouldn't need to feel anxious.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
It depends on her level of awareness. So, like we're
talking about, she acts like a twenty one year old.
Sometimes maybe if she was acting a little bit older
and actually becoming self aware and going, this is what
I do in relationships. So again, when you're a little
bit older, late twenties, early thirties, you've had a couple
of relationships, now some work, some didn't, you start to
(16:03):
have that self awareness and recognize the patterns in yourself.
So if someone like Aiden came at a point where
she was on her healing journey, sorry to have to
say it like that, I have to use it all,
but that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
True, that's no other way to explain it.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
If she was on a healing journey or self awareness journey,
whatever you want to call it, she would have wrecked.
Maybe you would hope would recognize, Hey, someone like Aiden
can really heal this anxiousness in me that I feel
comfortable with hot and cold friendships, hot and cold relationships.
Someone who's safe and secure and available to me will
teach me that I don't need that and my nervous
(16:39):
system will regulate, so over time, that anxious person they're
going to try and cause drama.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
With the secure person.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
But secure people are like, I see you, and I
know what's going on, but I'm still going to be here.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
So it's actually a really good match.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
It's a great match if she can see it for
what it is is that this person has the ability
to teach me a different way of being, which feels
really hard. It's like brushing your teeth with the sit hand,
right if a dentist is like, the reason that your
teeth are rotting is because you brush the wrong way.
You need to brush with this hand. You know it's
(17:14):
good for you, but damn, it feels so awkward at
the beginning.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
It feels wrong.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Even that's what getting into a relationship that's healthy when
you only used to hot and cold unhealthy relationships will
feel like.
Speaker 1 (17:26):
And she never really got better because I even remember
when they eventually got engaged, she wouldn't even wear the
engagement ring on her finger. Remember she wore it around
her neck on a necklace. And he was like, you're
not even wearing the engagement ring on your finger, and
she's like.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
It's closer to my heart this way, and it's like,
stop lying. Yes, the way that Carrie was with Aiden
is the way that.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
Big was with her.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Yes, she was unavailable to Aiden. He's like, I just
want you to just meet me where I'm at and
she's like, but I can't. And he's like, you cheated
on me with Big and she's like, he's always going
to be part of my life, you know. And we
talked about this as well. Is that why does he
have to be part of her life? They don't work together,
they have no investments together. Why does someone have to
(18:17):
be part of your life?
Speaker 1 (18:18):
So true, they have no kids together, they don't share dogs,
they don't have property together, like, there's literally nothing binding
them together. And that's I as fucked up as I
can be about relationships. I have a no cheating policy,
and if someone cheated on me, that's it, see you later.
I'm not I would never stand for someone being friends
(18:40):
with someone that they cheated on me with. That is
just not something I think when you know your self
worth like Aiden obviously did. So he ended up eventually
walking away, Thank god. That is just so selfish on
her part to not even see from his perspective, what
that would feel like exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
I think very much like a twenty one year old Oh,
this is my friend, and why does he have to
be part of her life? And I think it comes
back too. I hope that we get back together one day.
Why the only reason you would keep someone like that
around and disrespect your current partner is because there may
be an inkling in you of I want this to
(19:19):
work again.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
And then the little bitch kissed him when they went
to Abu Dhabi. I forgot about that and cheated on
Big with what is wrong with this woman? I completely
forgot about that until you just said it.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Oh yes, so when she went to uh so this
is later on later and there much later.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
When she's married. To this point, she's married.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
To mister Big, and she goes and kisses Aiden, and
I think this is the thing, is that she lacks
self control.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
One hundred percent and also maybe a bit of self confidence.
Because something else we briefly discussed off air was after
the show finished, and in the first movie we see
them getting married and we all think, oh my god,
finally they're getting a happily ever after and he leaves
her at the altar and then she takes it back
while like she is a textbookcase of someone who needs
(20:10):
a therapist, and.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
She refuses to get therapy. I think she there's an episode.
We're going to have to pull this clip up. But
she says something like, oh, I tried a therapist and
she she didn't get me.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, she didn't get me, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
So and then with her friend she goes, I don't
need therapy. I have you guys, and they're literally saying
to her, we can't handle this anymore. You need to
go and seek professional help. Again. She is a very
selfish friend.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, And I mean that's something that I see. Actually
a lot is a lot of women go, oh, retail therapy,
that's my therapy, or you know, talking with my girlfriends
is therapy, or you know, going to the ocean's my therapy.
Like no, Like, don't get me wrong, those things are
good for you, and they do regulate your nervous system,
but they're not going to increase your level of self
(20:58):
awareness the way that working objectively of some with someone will.
Speaker 1 (21:03):
And unparck the trauma that you need to unp to
in turn allow yourself to have a healthy relationship.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Because here's the.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Other thing is that I know it's sort of touched
on the way that your childhood affects your attachment and
then that plays out later in relationships and friendships as well. Actually,
you often can't see your parents doing that to you.
So when I work with someone and I first point out, hey,
(21:30):
I think that there might be some anxious attachment going
on here, and then I explain how it develops. Often
there's a resistance of oh no, my parents were always
really good to me. They sent me to good schools,
and they put a roof over my head, and they
gave me food.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
And it's like, oh, but did they tell you that
they loved you not so much?
Speaker 2 (21:51):
Did they tell you that you were they were proud
of you or not really? Okay, so how did you
show love? And you start to unpack that. But it's
really hard for people to see their parents in the
negative light, and we know that your parental relationship they
do really set you up for relationships later in life.
And the only way to get over that is kind
of the face it. It's they're facing that fear of
(22:14):
it's not about blaming them. They were probably doing the
best that they could, and sometimes they weren't. But regardless,
it's going, okay. I just need to have awareness around that.
It's not pulling it all up. It's not pulling up
every childhood traumatic thing.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
We don't have to do that.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
But what we do have to recognize is that there's
a pattern here that's your unconscious normal. So we need
to disrupt that pattern. And the way to do that
is by raising your awareness of it, so when you're
falling back into it, you can catch yourself and go, oh,
that's what I do. I need to choose a different
option now.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Which is where I don't think most people get to
that point you're talking about on their own, because I
was that girl for twelve years. I was always finding
these fuck boys, these dickheads, and I was falling head
over heels for them and everyone, my friends, my mom
now were like what are you doing? And I was like, no,
I love them like they're the best. And then eventually
(23:09):
I realized, oh my god, it's me. Hi, I'm the problem.
It's me, And I'm like, why are they all the same.
It's not a coincidence that they're all the same. You're
actively seeking these people out because you haven't dealt with
something or it's like that epiphany light bulb moment that
sometimes I say to you when you explain something to
me and I'm like, oh my god, that's why this
is happening to me. Can I ask you a question
(23:31):
again from a therapist standpoint, what relationship do you think
is the healthiest on the Sex and the City Show?
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I would probably say Charlotte and.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
What's his name?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
It's just on the front Harry, Harry, Charlotte and Harry definitely.
And you know what, even though we joked about Steve
that Steve isn't the healthiest if Miranda was in a
healthier place because she kind of dabbles between being very
very healthy and not kind of goes between toxic and
(24:06):
not toxic. But Steve is actually a really good guy,
good dude. But I think that's the thing with Steve
and Harry. They're not the glamorous fuck boy right. One's baled,
one works at a bar, so they don't have the
status pieces of you know, Harry, he's an attractive man,
(24:27):
but for you know, they sort of played in the
show a little bit.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
Compared to his Harry Chess that episode where they have
to wax his chests and they really like.
Speaker 3 (24:35):
I love a.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Hairy chess, so'm I'm more that's my type.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Also, I love a dad bot. But this is us now.
I feel like when I watched the show, I was
repulsed by Harry and I was repulsed by Steve.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
When you're in your younger years, I don't know something
in your brain just isn't there. And then I don't
know men's men now, you know, you know, But I
think that's the thing is that with Harry and Steve,
they're the healthiest in that whole show, and yet they're
very much played as not good enough. You know, Harry's
(25:10):
not attractive enough, and he doesn't meet up to Charlotte's
ex who was you know, I can't remember his name either, Trey, Yes, sir, Yes, you.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Couldn't even get a motherfucking direction.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes, exactly, Like you know, that's I always talk about
four key pillars of a relationship.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
And sex is one of them.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And so if you're missing a pillar, it's like a
table missing a leg. It's like the whole table's gonna
be off balance.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
What are the four pillars?
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (25:38):
So the four pillars are cause heirs, communication, and consummation.
So CAUs are making sure you actually have similar core values.
So core values are things like integrity or freedom or
adventure similar. You don't have to have the exact same,
but somewhat similar in recognizing, Okay, Phoebe's full value is freedom.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
So what that means is.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
If she wants to go and book a holiday at
the spur of the moment, I recognize that that's a
core value to her, and I need to love that
and recognize that in her right. So cool cares is
your goals? Basically, what are your won three five year goals.
Because the amount of couples that get into a relationship
(26:24):
get married but haven't talked about are we going to
have kids and then break up because one wants one
and one doesn't. That should be like a first six
month conversation. Yeah, and I don't get me wrong, not
too early, because that's the kind of state.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, are we having kids?
Speaker 2 (26:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (26:41):
No, no no, But it.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Is like there's certain sort of big things you've got
to talk about, marriage, kids, religion, even those sorts of things.
So cares like where do you see yourself?
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Again?
Speaker 2 (26:52):
This is important because if your partner has a job
like big, he's traveling all over the world, and he's like,
I'm not giving up my job.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
This is my job.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
I travel all over the world. And you're a Carrie
who's like, but if you love me, you'll quit your
job and come stay with me.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
No, no, no, So she writes a column she could
do that from anyway.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
The internet was a new thing back when. But I
guess that's the thing. Is that making sure that your
goals and your dreams is somewhat aligned. So again, some
people see having kids ten years down the track, another
person might see it two years down the track, so
making sure that at least they're aligned. Third is communication,
which again love languages, attachment styles, where do you meet
(27:38):
each other, making sure you have a regular check in,
almost like a date of like, so, how do we
feel things are, how's our sex life, how's this, how's that,
what's working, what's not? And then finally is a consummation,
which is all about sex and intimacy.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, that's really healthy because I remember, Yeah, when
I was watching the show, I was very much team Big.
But in hindsight, now that I know what I know
and I'm a little bit older, Big reminded me a
lot of my stepdad, the time, So I feel like
maybe that was a really familiar like it was familiar
to me to kind of see that relationship. And my
mum even says they're not together anymore, But my mum
(28:14):
even says he was very mister Big, So that relationship
was actually role modeled to me, not only on TV,
but in my own house. They even look the same,
like they even look very much the same. It's crazy,
but I Smith loved Smith Smith, and I think he
is such a beautiful person, and I think that was
(28:35):
actually a very beautiful relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
I cannot believe I didn't mention that he was incredible. Yeah,
they were incredible, But even.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Like you were saying before, what he didn't have was
initially he got it in the movie, but when he
was a struggling actor, he didn't have the money. And
that's what held her back initially from kind of launching
with it and really like rolling with it.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
And also he was significantly younger than her, so you know,
it was binging up her own insecurities.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
About her age.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That's right when she got the gray pubic hair.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
I forgot about that. But I think that's the thing
is that, again, relationships can sometimes feel about status, and
so if you're with someone who makes your status older
or aging or whatever. And you know, she was in
the press because of that relationship, so they were commenting
on her appearance and YadA YadA. You know, it was
(29:31):
just playing into her insecurities.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
Yeah, but then when I watch it back in hindsight,
I think I would choose Harry any day of the week.
They have fun together, they laugh together, they respect each other,
they have a healthy sex life. I love that he's
an Alarican and they can have a laugh together, and
they don't take things toast like so seriously, and I
feel like that is such a beautiful, healthy relationship. Have
(29:54):
you ever had toxic relationships or have you always been
in this space? Because did you study straight off the bat? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:01):
So I went to UNI when I was seventy for psychology,
which I just think a seventeen year old should not
be studying psychology at QT at castleedime, if you remember
that case.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
I did one semester of psych when I was at
UNI and that was enough for me.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
But no, I think that's why. In another episode we
talked about therapists seed therapists because we have blind spots.
Everyone does and I could learn about attachment and trauma,
but it's not until you know words tell but experienced teachers.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
It's like I can have a framework for what's going on,
but I don't really get it till I've gone through
it myself. So, yeah, I dated lots of toxic people,
but I had a lot of self concept and self
esteem issues, a lot of low self worth. You know,
I had my own stuff, which is you know, to
be honest, a lot of people who study psychology, social work, counseling,
(31:00):
we got our own shit to deal with. We got
our own trauma, which is what drags us into these
helping professions because we go I don't want anyone to
ever feel like I've felt. I don't want anyone to
deal with I deal with so a lot of awareness raising,
and that's the thing we can see in others what
we can't always see in ourselves.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Which is why you need not only friends, but a
therapist because they are completely objective and they will tell
you the truth. Do you find that a lot of
your clients are now in therapy to help with toxic
relationships and kind of unlearning those behaviors or figuring out
more about where it's come from within them.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Absolutely, So I really specialize in anxiety and burnout. And
as we talked about, I really work with a lot
of high performing women.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
So business owners.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
You know, women have got a lot on their plate. Hang,
it's so why they're so anxious, But they're probably anxious
because they're a high achiever. Anyway, it's a big cycle.
But it's amazing how in the last few years in
my own private practice, how women will come for anxiety
and then when we start unpacking things, it's actually their
relationship that's driving the anxiety.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
I think everyone can relate to that in essence, and
even if you're not in a relationship currently that's making
you feel like that. I think we all have been
at one point or another. I can think of two
in particular that like ruined me. But I think you'll
always look back and remember what your first big heartbreak
(32:29):
felt like, and it, oh my god, it's horrific.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Oh it's awful. Yeah, I still get the gut feelings,
like the visceral feelings.
Speaker 1 (32:38):
When you think about it, it's so sad, isn't it.
So what can millennials then learn from watching these relationships
from a new perspective or with a different lens.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Well, I think a lot of us are getting much
more aware of attachment style.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
But also just because you might be aware, doesn't.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Mean you know how you're playing it out always and
again remembering that it plays out with your own children,
it plays out with your parents, which where it came
from in the first place. So that's really confronting. I
think the thirties is when thirties and then leading into
the forties as well, recognizing Okay, my parents maybe didn't
(33:19):
do the best by me, and I now have to
figure out how I feel about that. But they're aging,
so now they need me, but I don't know how
I feel about them, so I know. So I think
that's what's coming up as well, is now analyzing those relationships.
But also I think what I do love And this
(33:41):
may be again a bit controversial, but I think more
millennials aren't so scared of divorce anymore. I think it
was ride or die when it came to marriage before,
and I think there's more of this idea. I mean,
even for me, I've gone through a separation myself with kids,
and it's scary for sure. It's like the hardest thing
(34:03):
you're ever going to go through. But I think more
and more people are recognizing but I'll live again, and
you can have more than one love in your lifetime.
Like I think there used to be this idea if
you get one love in your lifetime and if it ends,
you know, you might have relationships, but they're not going
to be your one love. And actually you can love.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
More than once.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
That is so true because my parents' divorce when I
was five, which was not that common back in the day,
So when I was younger, it was kind of like, oh,
Phoebe's parents are divorce, like that poor thing. Whereas now
I've got friends who are onto their set. I'm going
to a wedding in two weeks. It's their second marriage.
I'm like, fuck yeah. I think that we're just at
this point now where it's not the be all end
(34:44):
all we and we have enough self worth to know
when to leave something as opposed to just staying in
it or the kids, or because you're settled, or because
you don't think you can do it on your own,
or because it's not or you're not worth it.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Absolutely, and I think you know the most important decision
you're making your life is who you share your life with,
because it's the person you come home to at night.
It's a person you've vent about work. It's a person
who goes phoebe. You know you're changing, work's working for
you or look at you, you're thriving, like, look at
what this work has done for you. You know you we
(35:22):
all need that. Whereas imagine if you have someone who
doesn't like you accelerating or feels like they're losing you
because you're becoming bigger and bolder and out there, and
you know, it really affects all of that.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
What is some advice that you would give to any
millennial listeners right now about breaking free from toxic relationships?
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Lean into the fear. It is going to be really
scary if your gut has been turning during this episode
because you're like, oh oh, oh no, or you think
of a friend who's coming up where you're like, this
is my best friend or this is my cousin or
my sister. Oh my gosh, like I can see this
(36:02):
pattern playing out, or again you saw of realizing, oh shit,
that was my parents and now that's how it's played
out for me. It can change, and I think you
have to be okay with facing that icky gut feeling.
That's the fear talking to you. It's not a bad thing.
Don't try to drink it away, spend it away, retail
(36:23):
therapy away. It's telling you something. So's if it's one
of your loved ones going through this. Don't be scared
to have that difficult conversation going hey girl, you know
I love you, right, I got to tell you something.
Though they might hate you for a little bit, but
would you feel worse if you didn't have that conversation
(36:46):
and they end up marrying that person, being with them
for twenty years, and then they get divorced twenty years
down the track, and you sort of said I knew
from the beginning, but I didn't say anything.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
And I can tell you, as someone who was the
carry in my friendship group for years and years and years,
who had had that conversation had to me multiple times,
I can tell you I hated my friends for saying
that to me at the time, but a couple of
months later, when everything turned to even bigger shit, you
eventually thank them. So do it and don't look to
(37:17):
carry Bradshaw for romantic advice. Fashion advice one hundred percent
relationship advice no move on agreed,
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