Wendy Liebman & Jeffrey Sherman, Their Funny Life Together & Remembering The Sherman Brothers

Recently, Phil and David invited two of their friends -- the beloved stand-up comedian Wendy Liebman and her brilliant producer, writer, director and now podcaster husband Jeffrey Sherman -- to "Naked Lunch." Just days prior, Jeffrey's uncle Richard M. Sherman -- half of the legendary Sherman Brothers songwriting team along with Jeff's late great father Robert B. Sherman -- passed away at age 95. As a result, this "Lunch" begins with a spontaneous salute to The Sherman Brothers, and a discussion of their relationship to each other and Walt Disney, as depicted in Jeff and his cousin Gregory's acclaimed 2009 documentary, "The Boys: The Sherman Brothers' Story." From there, talk moves on to Wendy's illustrious comedy career and her relationship with Jeff -- and so much more. To find out more about Jeffrey's podcast work, go to: https://nrjmediagroup.com/podcasts. To learn more about building community through food and "Somebody Feed the People," visit the Philanthropy page at philrosenthalworld.com.

Episode Transcript

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(01:10):
of sugar helps them medicine go down. A most delightful phil This is a
very special naked lunch because we havehad on in the history of this show
and our one hundred and whatever episodes, I think we've had the married couple
guests. The only one was SusannaHoffs and Jay Roach. They're still married.

(01:30):
We had on our wives and Ithink we're both still happy to tell
your wife called me there is somenews. I'll check it with her.
And now today we're thrilled to havetwo people. As William our producer,
noted, it seems like everybody likeseveryone, and it's actually true. In
this instant, it's true. We'vebeen friends a long time. It's very

(01:52):
nice, and to celebrate our friendshipand the fact that we haven't seen each
other for a while. We haveone of the best, if not the
best deli in the United States doingour lunch today. Langers everybody, yes,
and I never had langers. Waittill you shink your teeth into this
delightful bread. The bread makes it, is it okay? If we move

(02:13):
beyond the bread to our guests names. We are thrilled to welcome Wendy Leebman,
a comedian I've loved since the firsttime I saw her, and then
her husband, who I've loved sincethe first time I met him, which
I don't know how, I don'tknow with it. I might have met
you here at phil right here fifteenyears ago. You know for a fact

(02:37):
it was fifteen because I just sawthere was a press release that The Boys
came out fifteen years ago. Ididn't realize that. So it was right
afterward. I came here and wedid the screening for movie night of the
Boys, and I'm telling the peoplewhat The Boys is. Yes, a
movie I haven't seen since last night. Again, that's how much I love
the Boys. Tell us about themovie. Well, The Boys The Sherman

(02:58):
Brothers Story is a movie that mycousin Greg and I made. It's about
our dads. I think you madeit first and then he made it.
Now we did it all together,and it was we realized that our dad's
music was really famous, but theywere kind of always in the shadows of
their work. People didn't know theSherman Brothers, so we kind of wanted

(03:19):
to raise their visibility and let peopleknow who they were and kind of connect
them to their legacy. So wemade this film for Disney Studios. It's
a documentary called The Boys The ShermanBrother's Story. A great film still on
Disney Plus. You can see itright now. Last night it was on.
At least. I advise everyone tosee it because the Sherman Brothers were

(03:39):
one of the great songwriting duels ofall time Mary Poppins, among many other
things. And it's a little topicalnow because of the passing of your uncle
the other day. My condolence toyou. These were great men who had
great influences on not just my life, but lives around the world. Thank

(04:02):
you. Yeah, he passed awayon Saturday at ninety five. And the
terrible no, and the most wonderfulthing about it is he never suffered.
You know, I'm doing my ownpodcasts now called so you're suffering. No,
no, but yes, he didn'twarn me. But what I'm doing
my own podcast called movies with DotDot Dot. But in between two interviews,

(04:27):
we were gonna interview Terry Nunn forthe second one of Berlin in case
you want your breath taken away.Yes, Terry on the lead singer of
Berlin, and we were interviewing herand my uncle came by the studio or
we're shooting. I happened to knowhe was coming, so I brought a
keyboard. But we recorded the lastperformance of Feed the Birds with Terry singing,

(04:48):
oh, oh my god, great, she's cold. See the book,

(05:29):
And at the end Terry shows himthis picture of herself when she was
a little girl. It's the mostadorable thing. She was the biggest Mary
Poppins fan when she was like three. Right, she's surrounded by all of
them Mary Poppins merch wow. Soit's just it's fun. Well, the
biggest at four. That's how oldI was when it came out, and
I was a fan even though Ididn't know it. I think the third

(05:51):
album I ever bought was Ringos albumwith Your Sixteen, which I think there's
still probably people who haven't put ittogether, all of this songs that they
brought the world, but that's onethat you know, people might not know.
Yeah, they had started out asrock and roll songwriters and they wrote
for various people and had a coupleJohnny Burnette did Year sixteen first. When

(06:12):
you could do Your sixteen, nowyou'd have to do that would be over
twenty four. And if you everwant to see something strange, look at
the video of that of that songthat Ringo did with Carrie Fisher when she
was about sixteen. Well it's alittle strange, but it's you know,
they wrote a bunch of songs andYour Sixteen is one of them. Then
they wrote some songs that Net Funicellotell Paul Pineapple Princess a bunch of stuff

(06:35):
who wrote about I thought you werecalling Pineapple Princess. It was you'd like
me to Hebrew School. But sothen from the Net songs, they were
hired by Disney. He heard theirtheir versatility and he wanted them to come
aboard as staff songwriters. They werethe only two staff songwriters you ever hired.
I have two questions about the moviebefore let's get Wendy. I want

(06:58):
your opinion on the first one,which is when I watched the movie,
and no joke, it's one ofthe great documentaries to see and I don't
have I'm not quite as much.It's not as much my musical world as
it is phils like feel. Legitimately, I think that is we were going
over our favorite records the other dayand that is some of his absolute favorite
music of all time. The documentarywas more educational for me in terms of

(07:21):
how much I did not realize andhow great they were. The psychological part,
which I know, Wendy, youstudied psychological re like you went to
Wellesley and then you were you atHarvard doing psychological research of something it's going
to be I wanted to be atherapist. How do you feel about that?

(07:41):
But my question is, when Iwatched the movie, it's a great
documentary, it also is a mysterya little bit because and I'm not I
think you did an artful job ofexploring the mystery. But the question is,
how could two people need each otherso much professionally have such an amazing

(08:01):
dynamic. And also the thing that'samazing when you go back and watch it,
I don't think they let on tothe outside world that they didn't have
most personal relationship, most people didn'tknow that they didn't get along. They
did keep that private. Like Philand I are doing just a strictly different

(08:22):
money foodship. I could only seewhat money for. But they just they
did see a need in each other, you know, each one. My
dad wanted to be a novelist andmy uncle wanted to be a classical composer,
and neither one of them was goingto make money at that and my
grandfather put down the challenge that theyshould write a song together that kids would

(08:45):
buy, you know, spend theirlunch money on. And so that started
the whole thing, the challenge,and they just found that they worked together.
Well, they just couldn't stand eachother. They actually made each other
better. Yes, they did needeach other. Well, I'm not sure
who says it in the film,but of course it speaks to me,
the Lennon and McCartney of it,all the light and the dark and the
way they needed each other that way. It continues to be a mystery to

(09:09):
me how people don't see that andget over what I mean, because the
other thing is I think there was. I mean, it's your film.
There's love there. It just itwas. It wasn't like neither were emotional.
It wasn't like you could possibly believeDean Martin was like fuck Jerry,

(09:33):
like enough of that, Jerry,No, that's not in any case,
Wendy as a with your non therapistcredentials near therapist credentials, what do you
make of it? Because you actuallygot to know these people, can I
say? I really think it wasthat the wives didn't get along. I

(09:58):
think they wanted to get it along, but there was that outside influence.
So for the for for public's sake, they took the hit for their walks.
Yes, it's partial, it's neverblack and white, it's never simple,
but I mean there were also personalitydifferences between them because as we showed

(10:20):
them the movie, you know,my dad, you know, fought in
World War Two and you know,liberated doc Out concentration camp by the way,
Thank you, you're welcome. Anduh and my uncle a couple of
years later, because he was twoand a half years younger, the war
was over and he was stationed tobe the band leader up in Fort Ord,
which is you know, up inSan Francisco. So their experiences in

(10:43):
life, my dad saw the darkestparts of humanity, stayed with him.
He got it, you know,wounded, he shot gut, shot in
the knee, and physically changed himhis whole life. Right. So,
uh, you know, they werejust had different even though they were brothers.
That's what I gathered was even aslittle kids. People that knew them
when they were little, they saidthey were always really different. So it

(11:05):
just but the great thing is,and I'm sure you know you guys have
all worked with other people. Ifyou're too much the same, there's no
reason to have a collaboration. Youhave to have kind of a what they
call the stereoptic view of life.Yes, So they would come at things
and I actually got the opportunity towork with them. I sat in the
room with them when I was doingthis show for the Disney Channel. I
produced the show when I first started, called the Enchannel Musical Playhouse, and

(11:26):
I got to sit in the roomwith my dad and uncle and develop musicals.
Because I was writing the scripts,they were writing the songs. So
you saw them work together, yes, and was a contentious as they were
working. There's a little story ifyou have a minute, Yeah, please,
we have a minute. Can Itell this story? Oh it's kind
of horrible. My uncle just died, but anyway, Okay. So I

(11:46):
was really excited because I went tothis thing at the Disney Studios. They
closed down the studio to open thisbig celebration of the Disney Channel. And
I asked my dad, who's thehead of the Disney Channel, and he
pointed to the guy and I walkedover to him. I said, I
have a show. I want topay. She said, come in next
week. So I came in nextweek and I pitched this and called the
Channa Musical Playoffs. Half of ourmusicals based on children's musicals. Anyway,

(12:07):
so we got and I'm so excited. I sold the way I sold it
was they were kind of I said, I'm going to bring in the Sherman
brothers ah, and they said howmuch is that going to cost? And
I had no idea because I nevertalked to my dad about business. I
said, well, you know,it's going to cost about five thousand dollars
a song. Their paper was infront of me, and I called my
dad and I said, Dad,I got us a deal together. Great,
we're going to work great. Andhe said how much. I said,

(12:30):
I got you a great deal.He goes how much? I said,
five thousand dollars a song? Longpause. He said, in nineteen
fifty one, I think I gotfive thousand dollars for a song. But
that's okay, we want to workwith you. So he was really sweet.
My uncle was cool, well wouldit cost? I don't know.
But we ended up working together.So I'm all excited. And the first

(12:52):
one we did was the velveteen Rabbit, and my dad said, get three
of the same book, drop oneat your uncle's house. I didn't know
his address, that's how strange wewere. And I went over. He
lived seven blocks from us, andI kind of knew where he was,
but I didn't know the address,and I dropped. He took the book
through the like a little crack inthe door. And then I gave one
to my dad and I read oneand I and my dad said song spot,

(13:13):
and I said, I don't knowwhat that means. He goes find
spots for songs, jiff. Soso I found the spots for the songs
and we're in this in this AlexI'm driving down Sunset. Their office was
where the Larry Flint building is now, and sun said it was right there.
And this old building where the roomwhere they were was where Marilyn Monroe
used to take the music lessons.So I had that kind of history to
it. And I go up andI'm all. I said, I'm going

(13:35):
to work with the Sherman Brothers.Happy birthday, mister brother. I think
that's exactly where. And so Iwalk up and they're just there's tension in
that room. It's just tense,you know, you can kind of smell
it when you walk in. Mydad sitting at his desk, my uncle's
sitting at the piano. I walkin, nobody says anything. I said,
hey, how's everybody doing? Andthey said how to seat? And

(13:58):
there's a seat in the middle ofthe room, and I go and I
sit in the seat, and soI said, well, anybody have any
thoughts, and nobody said anything.So I said, well, I think
I think the first song might comeon page two, where my uncle says,
that's the stupidest damn idea I've everheard. Oh, and my dad
stands up. He said, youcan talk to me like that, you
cannot talk to my son like that. Very sunshine boys, it was.

(14:22):
And I'm Richard Benjamin in the middle. So I'm sitting in this chair and
they start walking toward each other,toward me to like confront each other.
I'm holding them apart. They're bothin their late fifties or something. At
this point, I'm like holding apart. And my uncle goes, got it,
goes over to the piano, startsplaying this happy little melody my dad.
My dad shakes his head, walksover to his desk, takes out

(14:43):
a pad, and goes and theywrote a song called Ribbity Rabbity Run.
So I go home afterwards, likeI spend a couple hours there, but
I'm really quiet. I'm letting themkind of do their thing. I go
home. I said Dad, I'mso sorry. If I brought out is
the five thousand, I just goes, oh no, that's how we work.
Start with contention and then was mad. Then they raise up to this

(15:05):
other level. It was amazing.Did they write songs together as children,
No, they didn't really want Theydidn't hang out as children plays though they
did plays in their garage. Yeah, they had something called the Alley Theater.
What they did they lived, andthey had moved from Brooklyn to Beverly
Hills for a job and the producerdied so they had no job. But
they got a little house in BeverlyHills and there's an alley and a garage

(15:28):
attached to it, and they wentout in the back. They decided they'd
have their own theater company, theTwo Boys Little Boys, and they painted
Ali Theater on the on the door, and they would open it up and
they charge kids and nickel to comesee their plays. And my dad would
write them and my uncle would performin them. So that was their only
collaboration really as kids. I understandcontention when working, but yes, isn't

(15:52):
there time when you have to acknowledgesuccess and that we've shared this at least
and that we can hug over thisor did that never happen? It did
happen. I'll tell you something.There was And I've worked with them many
times. I was an assistant stagemanager when they did this little play called

(16:15):
Victory Canteen in Los Angeles, andI'd seen their problems always. I mean
it was like you could see itand they would really get onto each other.
But you know, I went tothe premiere of Bang Bang in London
and we were sitting in the grandcircle, the front row of the balcony,
and we were on one side andmy uncle was on the other side

(16:36):
because they always separated them. Theydidn't want to fight in public. Yes,
And so at the end of theplay, my dad they had the
Sherman brothers stand up, and mydad stood up and my uncles stood up,
and they both held their hand upin the air like that, and
it was like this and like that, and I noticed it and I said,
what was that. He goes,Oh, that's our signal. They

(16:57):
and what it is is connection.Because when Disney started paying them, my
dad was driving out of the studioand their first check was five hundred dollars
each, which was five hundred dollarsmore than they ever had for life.
And so my dad, as theywere driving out, e went like that,
five five, and my uncle said, and that began that kind of
a so that's their private code.And they went like that, flashing tens

(17:22):
and tents, and then yeah,that thinks. The other question I had,
which is the vision of Walt Disneyin your movie makes me love Walt
Disney and I met Roy. I'dwritten about some lion kingersaying obviously I never
got to meet Walt Disney. Isit your feeling that, like some of
the historical knocks on Walt, itwould seem if he loved these two guys,

(17:48):
he probably wasn't the vicious anti semitand some people have tried to project.
My friend Neil Gabler said, there'sno proof that he was ever at
all the time. Though whenever Isay I'm connected to Disney's I've heard I've
heard a rumor about it is thatit started during the animator strike that they
made it that was sort of toput a slur on Disney. Disney was

(18:11):
I mean, the guy that builtDisneyland, Marty Sklar, was Jewish right
all this, Many of his principalpeople were Jewish and it just kind of
came on. And in fact,if you ever said to my dad and
uncle was he an anti semi,you would actually see them go get angry
because they left him like a secondfault. Friend Sam Golden Junior was his

(18:33):
best friend. I mean Sam Goldwin. It's just amazing how that kind of
nasty rumor thing it doesn't die thateasily. You know, it made me
and to have all we all grewup on Walt Disney stuff, so it's
actually it made me really happy tosee that the way he came across in
the film. Yeah. In fact, when we screened it, we opened

(18:55):
at the San Francisco International Film Festivaland they got us George Lucas's Letterman Theater
to Parent premiere it in and DianeDisney, who was his daughter. Disney's
daughter was sitting right in front ofme with her husband. At the end
of the movie, she stood upand hugged me for about a minute.
I mean, I wish I hadit on film. It was so beautiful,
and she said, thank you forhumanizing my father. Oh wow,

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(20:26):
online or through their app. Themost mock taillable, act imaginable. Stop
mocktailing me exactly with couples, andwe did it with our own wives.
I'm just curious your origin story asa couple, Wendy. From your point
of view, you were were I'mtrying to you were already sort of a

(20:47):
well known comedian, right, Whathow did you get to know in a
biblical and non biblical sense? Jeff? What was what's your origin story together?
Jeff was hired to write a sitcomfor me, and we met at
Jerry's Deli. Yeah, we metat Jerry's Stelli. I met you know

(21:11):
where I met right Romano where artDelli? Really and today we're having deli.
When I walked in, the womanat the front said where do you
want to sit? And I don'tknow what came over me. I said,
I don't care, I just wantto look at you. Well,
and I was already in a relationship. What I just knew he was my

(21:37):
husband. Now I'm not so surebecause he was so handsome, just intangible.
I knew he was family. ActuallyI did twenty three and me just
to make sure he wasn't. Actually, but I just knew he was my
husband at first sight. Yes,and for him as well. So really

(22:02):
it was we sat down. Iwas supposed to picture this idea because they
kind of Columbia tries started. Hiredme basically, and I just had to
tell her what it was based onher material, and we just chit chatted
for about an hour and then shehad to go and I said, oh
you have to go. Oh shesai, It's okay. I'm sure it's
a great idea kind of it.I got the job. So, yeah,

(22:22):
the show never went but you didn'tcare. I didn't care, I
know, but now, could youwrite it out? How soon? How
soon after this art were you married? So it was about four years because
he was going through I didn't.I didn't break up his marriage. He
was already separated. When he's beingpoyed. I broke up Jeffsman, we've

(22:48):
forgiven you, David him, andso we had to wait a couple of
years. So we waited four years, and we've been together twenty twenty five
years including those four years. Somarried twenty one and for our anniversary he
gave me a friendship bracelet. Yesthat's a joke. But did you live

(23:15):
together during the four years. Wedid, But I kept my apartment because
it was in Hollywood and it wassort of rent controlled and they didn't want
to give it up just in caseyeah, that was so great. We
went back and like her plants werejust dead. But you should have kept
it. I know, I know. But yeah. Then we we lived

(23:37):
in Studio City for seventeen years andthen we just moved out West Yes,
West Hills. Right, you've beenthere. You've been there too, yes,
oh no. In facts like goingon vacation. I know my parents
want to send us on vacation.I'm like, I'm always on vacation.
Not only that, Like I rememberI was invited to a party when I

(23:59):
thought about moving to La The partyI would have dreamed of was the party
you invited fran and I over.And it was. And I'll tell you
it doesn't hurt when Mickey Dolan's isin the house, but like it's like
it was the most interesting fun butnot at all. It was not a
celebrity party in the slightest. Itwas like Rob Morrow, Mickey Dolans,
I forget whuffs were there, butit was just so great. It was

(24:22):
Joey Hutton was Danny Hutton was probablythere of three Dog Night, and Dicky
Peterson was there from the Bengals.And by the end of this podcast,
we're going to make sure all ofthem are in the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame. But yes, we'llsave that because I guess when I'm really
interested in, like as a comedian, who I guess up to that point,

(24:45):
a lot of your comedy would befrom the perspective of a single woman
and dealing with you know, whatwas it like to actually was falling in
love? Possibly a dangerous career movefor you as a to be happy?
Was that a dangerous thing? Igot five minutes of material from it.
But no, I know what you'reasking, and I don't know if it's

(25:06):
irony. But I had never beenmarried. I always had some I was
always dating somebody. But I usedto talk about my ex husband. I
just made you do a spit takealmost because my jokes aren't really real.
So I figure, like in art, I'm allowed to make things up.

(25:30):
So I would talk about my exhusband how he had a five year old
mentality, and or when we brokeup there was a kid involved him.
The funny our first date, itwasn't really it was supposed to be a
script conference and we go out thisplace. I found a place with a

(25:52):
waterfall. I don't know for yourscript conference. I was looking toward you
know, yeah, yeah, andso I said, so, tell me
more about your brother. She was, I don't have a brother. Because
about my brother, like I realizedthat a lot of her act was fiction,
you know, and I was kindof going down the list and you're
getting involved with a serial line.No, but I only lie on stage.

(26:15):
I'm very very honest except on stage. But uh so, yeah,
so I got a little material frombeing involved with the man who had children
I never had. I never hadchildren of my own. I couldn't according

(26:36):
to my lease. I'm just doingmaterial for you, terrible. We're waiting
for the line. I think there'sa line that I remember here. I
live for jokes. I love this. And as a comedian or who who
was the people that sparked you towant to do comedy? Because you know,

(26:56):
it's very interesting, like you're yourmaterial is so smart, so subtle
and nuanced, all things that areno longer viable in the world now,
things that you don't hear that youknow. It's like as someone who grew
up like in college loving Stephen Wrightor for instance, it has that kind

(27:17):
of linguistic elegance. But who werethe people who And I don't know if
it was men or women, butwho were the people who made you want
to do commed right for real?I saw him on the Tonight Show when
I was in college, on alittle black and white TV, and I
just was mesmerized. I thought itwas the funniest thing. And then the

(27:38):
next week I was flying home fromBoston to New York and he walks onto
the flight and I'm like, Iknow, I know him, I know
I know him. Oh it's ArtcoreFunkle. And then I was going to
say something to him when he gotoff, and he never came off the

(27:59):
plane. I don't know if hewent out the back, but that was
very Stephen Wright like. He hasbeen a real influence on me, and
I've gotten to meet him and he'sa lovely man and he's like that,
he's like that. And I wasa huge fan of Paula Poundstone. I

(28:21):
still am. And I remember meetingher in Boston when I was still doing
open mic, and I thought,why should I even bother doing this?
This is I'll never be that funny. And the older I've gotten, the
more I realize everybody is different andhas their own voice, and it's not

(28:41):
a competition. There's a room forboth of us. I did a show
recently and she was the host,and she sat in the front row and
laughed at everything I said and thentweeted about me the next day. So
I felt like, full circle.Oh, this is amazing because I think

(29:02):
she's one of the best, becausewhat she does when she's on stage is
she involves the audience, and theaudience loves to know that the comedian is
not just reciting a script and thatthey are the funny person, that their
brain is the funny and so tosee her in motion, the audience really

(29:25):
loves that, I think. Andshe's really fast, so fast the women
ahead of her a generation. Andyou know, we talked a little bit
before we started recording about Hacks theTV show, Like I got to work
a couple times with Joan Rivers,I got to work. I was on
a panel once, I think withRay and Ray Ramondo and film maybe with

(29:45):
Phyllis Diller, like at the TVAcademy, someone I never thought I would
meet. Did you have any encounterswith these the women like your sort of
mother's generation legends. Phillis called meLeaveman, which I loved, and I
did a show I was on theBob Hope special and she was on the

(30:07):
show as well, and that's whereI got to meet her. And then
I was at the Friars Club andshe was being honored, so I got
to meet her again. So thenshe invited me to her house once for
a Christmas party, and at thebeginning of the party, she gathered everybody
in the hall and said, don'tuse this bathroom because the lock doesn't work

(30:29):
and you're going to get locked in. We'll have to call the fire department.
And then sure enough, an hourlater, somebody's locked in the bathroom
and it's Phyllis. That's really funny. But I loved her, and I
got to meet Joan a couple oftimes. She knew my uncle. I
have one relative and show business.His name was Tony Holland Anthony Holland.

(30:56):
He was like a character actor onmash He was in the movie Be All
That Jazz, and she was inan improv group with him, and so
I felt connected with her. Yeah, So actually, growing up, I
knew I had this uncle or distantrelative who was in show business, and

(31:18):
I always wanted to talk to himabout it, and he was never available.
And so now I have all theselike relatives who are younger, and
I always make myself available to talkshow business with them if they want to
hear it. I when my partnerand I first came to town, one
of the first meetings we had waswith Joan Rivers and she liked us,
and we wrote a pilot for her. Well, yeah, it didn't go,

(31:40):
but we got to know her andshe was amazing. She's just hysterical,
and that's who they probably are doingin hacks, is that I've always
assumed, so I figured that Iwould figure that too. Somewhat. We
were amazed. Who else would itbe? We were watching about yes yesterday
or the day before, thinking whocan afford a house like this? Like

(32:04):
what comedian can afford a house likethis? Joan Rivers could. That's right
because she diversified too. It wasn'tjust from stand up right. She made
like billion dollars on QVC, that'sright. I had the most amazing encounter
with her in whatever town QVC isbased in in Pennsylvania. I was brought
in by Hall and Oates when theygot along to interview that on QBC.

(32:25):
They wouldn't let a cute like DarylI think didn't want a QVC interviewer,
so they flew me in and Iso, I'm at the one good hotel
in that town of bumfuck, Pennsylvaniawhere that QVC was. But the only
other person in the hotel I couldtell was Joan Rivers. And every time
I checked, it was going intocheck a phone call or whatever it was.
At the front desk, she wasdemanding more pillows and more towels,

(32:49):
exactly like you would want her tobe. It was just as Monica Piper
says in her act, they haveto give you things when you call and
ask, bring me ten towels forwhat I just want them. Yeah,
to her credit, she went downstairsand I demanded them. I love it.
It's funny we're talking about her becauseshe just came up on my Instagram
today, a crazy interview with thislady who a young woman who was calling

(33:15):
her mean, and one of thewhole interview to be about how mean she
is and she's eighty one at thistime, right, and who Joe,
Yeah, that her comedy is somean, and she keeps trying to defend
herself really and say that she nevergoes after anyone who's not and people know
that she's only kidding and it's onlyfor laughs. And if I make fun

(33:38):
of somebody's dress, it's not aboutthem, it's we're talking about fashion.
It couldn't be more innocuous. Andthe woman wouldn't stop. And Jones just
said, you know what, You'vebeen nothing but negative. You have no
interest in saying how many people havelaughed over the years. You're only going
after that And I'm out of here, and she leaves, I'm live TV.
Good for her. Well. Shealso said she never put her husband.

(34:00):
Oh no, I'm thinking fang Philip. Still. I never made them
the butt of the joke, madethem the Do I make you the butt
of the joke every single time?Yeah, we've been married twenty For our
anniversary, he wanted one of thesebig screen TVs, but I just pushed
his chair closer to the set wealready have. I can't believe. Yeah,

(34:30):
he's the funniest person I know.He sexted me recently. He sent
me a picture of him emptying thedishwasher. And you your ex husband,
Yeah, make fun of your exhusband. Maybe she's just visionary. Maybe
she knows more than we used to. I used to go with her mom
and dad to shows, and shewould start telling her Jeff section yeah,

(34:53):
and her mom go, I'm sosorry, let's bring in the bucks.
See, I think if I don'tknow, if you were like this.
But the thing that is the JonesRivers documentary, which if people haven't seen,
it's like a piece of work.Is that what it's called? And
it's magnificent, it's so insightful.But the thing that I like I work
for. There a couple of timesher work ethic like that that will to

(35:15):
endure and survive. I just it'slike transcend it. But I assume you
are because you're because you again,your language is so subtle and nuanced in
the jokes. Are you as harda worker like she was? A card
catalog of like constantly recycling to tryto get jokes right? Is that your
kind of work ethic or is itdifferent? I don't have a card catalog.

(35:37):
I have pieces of paper from asticky notes all over my desk and
then I compile them and I putthem into my notes on my phone.
And I am not that disciplined becauseI feel like that would be too much

(35:57):
of a commitment. I don't knowwhat I'm trying to stay here or that
discipline. It's just a different way. It's a different way. And also
you're you're talking about how long wouldyour is your act? Usually I do
anywhere from fifteen to forty five minutes. Okay, so but let's say it's
forty five minutes on a given evening. You have the catalog in your head,

(36:22):
right, and these are very specific. You know, one line,
you're not getting into a story thatyou can kind of mess around within.
These are really specific lines where everysyllable is purposeful. Well, when I
opened for Alan King once in NewJersey, Atlantic City, he was telling

(36:43):
me how he can do the samefive minute act in fifteen minutes because he
would add things to it, andmine are like words specific, so I
can't stretch. You're like a highcrew comic. I love that. Yeah,
But I've been doing something on Facebookwhere I give a joke prompt.

(37:05):
I'll say something like I buy allmy furniture at Ikea, and then two
hundred people will write the punchline.I'll write three punchlines and then two hundred
people will add theirs. A lotended up being about Alan Wrenches and Swedish
people. But I'm not taking them. I've bought one joke. I've been

(37:30):
doing this for six months now,almost every other day, and I had
written how my stepson is a techie. That was the joke prompt, and
three people wrote he works at appleBee's. So I paid each of those

(37:55):
comedians for that joke, and Iuse said in my act now it's great.
Yeah so and I and people arelike, oh, so, you're
just stealing material from me, andlike, no, I here's the money.
Yeah so, but I've only boughtone so far. There is something,
though, I'm sure this has happenedto you, where there's people can

(38:19):
think of the same thing. Yes, it's interesting to see how many people
wrote about Alan Wrenches because they didn'tfor my IKEA prompt. Yeah, they
didn't read any of the previous answers. So but within those Alan Wrenches punchlines,
there's a best one. So right, But the thoughts are out there,

(38:45):
hive mind. Yes, and that'swhat's going to make prosecuting the people
who abuse AI so hard because AIdoesn't think of anything. It's a compilation
of people's work, right, mostof it is, so good luck pinning
it down. Well. My favoritecomedy joke writer stand up. Joke writer

(39:07):
is Brian Kylie, and we've writtenmaybe half a dozen of the same jokes,
but not verbatim. Just we havethe same idea about how I have
that special pillow to help my husbandsnore, you know, I hold it
over his head, and he hasa very similar joke. And it's just

(39:31):
the way we think. But yes, somebody plugged my jokes into AI and
said write some jokes like Wendy,and they weren't funny. AI right now
is great in theory and stinks inpractice. My son put in right.
Phil Rosenthal goes to China on somebodyfeed Phil and write a script. Okay,

(39:55):
first of all, we don't havescripts. But here comes the script
and in thirty seconds and here itis. Hi. I can't believe I'm
in China. I hope there's somegood food here. Look at all the
people, Yes, look at allthe people. That's already clever, that's

(40:16):
already proud of that. You grewup in writer or not grew up,
but you've spent many years in writersrooms of like Boys, Boy Meets World

(40:37):
and those sort of shows like Idon't know if you ever ran into Justin
Bateman, who's been on our podcast, but justin we had her on discussed
this during the strike. All theAIS she studied this, She's really studied
this, and a lot of Ifollow her feeds and it's alarming, like
there, you know, you know, I think she was writing yesterday about

(40:59):
like the medical like the medical systemtrying to use AI to you know,
rather than having a human doctor.We know how bad human doctors can be,
but I still would rather someone youactually went to medical. Although I
met a radiologist who said he reviewedthe x ray first and then ran it

(41:20):
through AI, and sometimes AI caughtsomething that he hadn't, so but they
have to train AI to do it. So yeah, that's his. A
lot of surgery now is being donerobotically, right, No, I don't
know. I worry about the selfdriving cars. I can't wait. Well,

(41:40):
I'll do it when everyone else does. It is how I feel because
right now I feel like the cardoesn't care if it crashes, right,
So you want the car to havesome emotion. I just wanted to care,
like for self preservation reasons. Ibetter not crash, right. You've
seen the accidents that have happened wherethe car goes right into a truck.

(42:04):
Because it didn't see it. Myfear, I'm capable of doing that.
My fear is I'll get into atesla and I'll hear this reported voice saying,
we saw that tweet about Elon.That's funny, that's funny. No,
but I can't wait for driverless carsand self loading dishwasher. I just
can't just can't wait. That's me. You want to replace Jick. To

(42:30):
bring it down slightly. You hada very rough accident, right, You
were out of commission for How longwere you out of commission? It was
about fourteen months? Fourteen months?How long ago? It was twenty eighteen.
I was walking. I was walking. I got hit by a car.
I was walking on my treadmill,and no, I'm just joking.

(42:50):
I was walking across Ventura Boulevard andsome guy made a right and just didn't
stop. Hin me to the carand I broke one leg and both feet
and it wouldn't have been terrible,but they had to put a rod in
my leg, and when they putthe rod in, they rotated the rod,

(43:13):
so my feet were sticking out.One of my feet, that foot
was sticking out like I was likea duck. And I said the only
problem is you can only swim incircles. Now, wait a minute,
they did it by mistake, Yeah, by mistakes. And so when they
took the cast off, like,I was in so much pain and nobody
could understand why because my leg wasrotated this but I yeah, there was

(43:36):
no suit though, because, asmy lawyer explained, the person who hit
me absorbs all of that cost.I didn't sue a doctor because you can
rarely win. But anyway, Ihate this story. It's hard to sue
or marry a doctor. It's evenworse because then they had to rebreak her.

(43:58):
Oh god, but but you knowwhat, I have this terrible experience,
you guys, I got so muchlove out of it. I felt
so loved. I felt so caredfor by my husband. I owe him,
and I got a little settlement money. So there were times during COVID

(44:22):
I was like, oh, thankgod I got hit by a car.
Don't think. Don't say that.But it wasn't terrible, is my point.
Like, it was a terrible situation, but you know, if it
had happened to me, I wouldhave been the biggest baby. And she
was just she just smiled all thetime. I was on medication she gives

(44:49):
me. Really, Oh yeah,I could pass out right now. It's
horrible. And yet you do allthose like adventurous things on your show.
You go kayaking, you climb mountain, little boat, climb the mountains.
I love your show so much.We just watched the Washington, DC episode

(45:13):
and just loved seeing Pete boot Judgeon there and Jake Tapper. But Pete
with a Republican. That was thekey. That was the motive to go.
That was what I really wanted.By the way, not easy really
to get to a Republican and Democratto sit. Took months to find two
who would do it. Well,they can't agree on a restaurantee. Surprisingly,

(45:37):
that's the easy part, and that'smy message. Sit neat right,
nobody. You can't kill each otherwhen we're eating, and if the food
is any good, we're already ina good mood. And if we share
a laugh for a smile, thatwe're friends. Yeah, so that was
people stopped communicating. I think it'spartly the phones again. It's like,
you know, people have kind ofgone because you can live in your camp

(45:59):
on your phone, your echo chamber, and yes, and even YouTube knows
what you like and you go onthere and it'll just amplify what's in your
head. Anyway, Well, myniece got married and nobody caught the bouquet
because everybody was looking at their phone. Is that true? But this is
my life, I believe it.That's what's so good about it about participation,

(46:22):
tulips. So now I think youknow that like Frand and I go
see you do comedy fairly often,like you know, and we'll go to
thank you so much. We'll goto big venues like when you engated Spade
would do like the theater at theAce Hotel, or which I heard long
No, no, now it's calledthe United I just played it two weeks

(46:43):
ago for the Comedy Fest. Howis that the Comedy Festival? No?
My live shows lives? Do youlove it? I feel like they leave
it. It's but I have itmuch easier because I don't have to write
and memorize these great jokes. Ithey show a highlight reel of the show.
The people that are coming already knowme from the show. I come

(47:07):
out with a moderator, do halfhour, forty minutes, and then Q
and A. And it's so fun. And I actually love that kind of
audience. I guess it's audience work, crowd work, right, but they
have beautiful and children come and theyasked greats. I just love it so
much. Well, you started asa performer, didn't you. I did

(47:30):
as as an actor. I wasa big star in high school and then
college, and then I moved toNew York and nobody called New York to
tell them what a big star Iwas. But so you have that in
your system. It's in the system. But I think traveling, and I'm
sure you found this too, ithones your improv skills because you're not in

(47:57):
your world that you're accustomed to andyou have to improvise. What do I
do? I mean travel. IfI hadn't been a performer traveling, I
would just stay home. Yes,all the time. So I feel like
it's given me life skills. You'regetting new stimulus all the time, right,
and it helps you. Obviously,performing is a very specific pathway,

(48:22):
but traveling opens you up in somany ways. It literally changes your perspective
on life. Do you get whenyou were doing comedy condos? Did you
do that kind of circuit like threeof the condo? And it's like I
have a visceral response to hearing comedycondo discussed. Remember that it's a Petri

(48:44):
dish of comedy. I went withher one time and the opener was this
one woman performance, right, doyou remember this? And she was surrounded
by three keyboards and it was likeshe was playing YMCA and all I could
see was her hands open, thislittle women playing over this and she was
really good, right, And allthe older people in the condos were like

(49:04):
doing YMC and talking through it andthey're going why And I hear I'm standing
near this one woman. She goes, you're spelling it wrong. So that's
a different comedy condo. That's thecondos in Florida that I perform at.
But you're talking about sleeping in thecondos, right, Those were the retirement
community. So just to explain itto people who don't know what this concept.

(49:27):
So the comedy club will buy acondo and put up the some of
the acts, and usually the headlinerstays in a hotel. But for a
few gigs, I stayed in thecondo. And you just know there have
been other comedians sleeping on this bedand drooling on this pillow, and at

(49:50):
best it doesn't feel clean. Itdoesn't feel clean, and like the screens
are coming off and you're on thefirst floor and you just feel unsafe,
and there's old mayo in the refrigerator. I heard one story, one story
where this comedian hated the condos somuch he did two things. He put

(50:15):
ground beef in the pipes and theradiator. I know, but he was
angry at the club. And thenI didn't do this. And then another
time he put police tape around.Yeah. So yeah, they were less

(50:35):
than ideal. But the hotels I'vestayed in a hotel in Miami, there
was a piano in every room.There was one hotel where there were goldfish
in every room, like just aregular room suite, no like Liberaci,

(50:55):
which brings up the question I'm tryingto sleep, I know exactly. It
was like people didn't really play them, but they were playable, I know.
And then there was one where therewas like a little gym and these
aren't special rooms or anything. Yeah, gym in the room in the room.

(51:17):
Yeah, like a little workout madand an exercise bike. I think
that was Chicago. I mean,they put you up in the health club.
Did you ever do the opening formusicians did you, Because I know
Jeff's a major music fan, andyou know deep appreciative music. I think

(51:39):
you love a lot of music.But did you actually? I know you
do? So did you ever openfor any artist along the way? It
did? When I first moved tola in ninety one, I was with
William Morris and they represented a lotof musical acts and I got to open
for them in Vegas in Atlantic City, including Ray Charles. Oh my god,

(52:05):
what Ray Charles. Well, I'lldo the list and then i'll tell
you the things. And Margaret Iwent on tour with her. I met
her, and I don't know.I hope maybe I got a falsely beautiful
view. She was lovely, lovely, and she smelled good. That's what
I remember. I remember the samegoing Sheena Easton, who smelled terrible.

(52:31):
Neil sedaka Julio Iglesias. His audienceonly spoke Spanish, so they didn't really
get me. But so Ray Charles, okay, two things about him.
He actually, after my show,he did hold my wrist like apparently he

(52:51):
would hold your wrist to see howthin boned you were. And so one
time I opened for him in Vegas. One, it's in Atlantic City.
Both times I got off stage andhis then manager said, so what do
you do for a living? Hilarious? Oh my god, and he did

(53:14):
it again in Atlantic City. That'snot his joke, that's his joke.
Yeah, somebody sent us this postcardwith the hotel with the big marquis outside.
This is Ray Charles Wendy Leidman.So it's on the postcard in Vegas.
I know. But you were startingto stay before about how you and

(53:36):
fran come just came to see meat the Ace Hotel and amazingly, like
I, what's funny is I getto write jokes with comedians fairly often.
But I'm not. I've never beena comedian, and that's very clear.
But I am and I think alot of comedians I know aren't good audience
members for comedy. I feel likeI'm a very good I love to laugh

(53:57):
at comedy. And a few timesyou've heard I think you heard us at
the Ace Hotel from the balcony onone thing and well, I said,
my friends are here, and Idid a shout out. I was trying
to earn brownie but wild. ButI I am a great audience member.
I love laughing. I kind ofthink that's why I got in. One

(54:20):
of the reasons I got into standup was I loved going to shows I
lived in Boston. I would goto every comedy show. I watched everybody
from Bill Maher to Brett Butler.I watched Oh he was on homicide,
bells are I would just I lovedlaughing. But you know a lot of

(54:44):
I know a lot of male comedianswho are not generous laughers of other people,
at least in my experience. Ihaven't studied that, but I understand
what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Like what did
your dad and uncle they hear songsgo hmm, oh, this is well.
At the premiere of Chitty Chitty BangBang in London, two people were

(55:07):
there that my one in particular wasAndrew Lloyd Webber and my dad. I
used to love Andrew Lloyd Webber.And my dad heard me listening to it
and he said, Jeff, youreally like that. He said, yeah,
he goes come here with me,and he took me down to his
music room and he started playing methe classical pieces that they were derivative of.
And so he didn't like it.And Andrew didn't like my dad and

(55:28):
uncle. He thought they were kindof hacks and something, but he was
one of the producers of Chitty ChittyBang Bang in London. So he comes
to the performance and I knew mydad. I knew my dad just just
didn't like his music. So Igo over to I see Weber standing near
where my dad's sitting, and Isaid, oh, Lord, Webber,
would you mind coming over and sayinghello to my father. He goes,
who's your father? I said,Robert Trimany goes, oh, and so

(55:53):
I have a picture of my dad. The two men, famous composers that
didn't like each other works, bothgoing like this, you know, just
with a like a face. Idon't want to be here. I thought
you were going to tell the storyabout how you were sitting behind your father
when they wrote new lyrics to Idon't know if I say that really well.

(56:14):
I convinced my dad because when wewere shooting The Boys, we started
in New York at the opening ofMary Poppins on Broadway, that's what we
filmed it, and people around it. So my dad sits next to me
in the theater and in front ofus some other composers, these two English
guys nice guys had written like fouror five new songs and they'd gone in
and my dad was really upset becausethey changed lyrics in their songs. I

(56:37):
don't know if you saw the MaryPoppins play, but in London, I
couldn't hold the candle to yeah.I agree. And so my dad's going
and instead of Let's Go Fly Kybeing the big song at the end,
they pushed it earlier and they hadthis other song called anything Can Happen if
You let it, and it's youknow, it's built up to be the
big, you know, eleventh hoursong and the whole thing and plause,

(57:01):
applause. It gets quiet again beforethe next song, my dad goes,
worst song ever written. Oh,the composer saysn't running. I just seem
to go like this, wowle awkward. That's not the worst thing my dad
said in public. But you youare, I guess before the term existed.

(57:22):
You are a nepo baby of somesort. And yet I could be
wrong. You seem like one ofthe more well adjusted people like you are
not You're not a douchebag, whichthere are many varieties and flavors. Only
been a few minutes. No,it's been a few years, so I
can I can attest what do youthink? What have you learned about show

(57:42):
business that you love and what haveyou learned about show business that you hate
and distance yourself from. Well,the wonderful thing that I grew up and
my mom was artistic to My mompainted and sculpted, so I grew up
in a house with artists and itwas okay to be an artist. It
was never like, don't do that. It was like and there were musical
instruments around, and my grandfather wasa famous composer, and they didn't tell

(58:04):
you you should have something the fullback. Yeah, my mom would mention
the medical and legal wanted us toown an optometry. Yeah, she said
you should do That's okay, Thanksfor the confidence, mom, anyway,
but I love that freedom to expressAnd my grandfather gave me piano lessons when
starting when I was about four orfive years old, and I, you

(58:25):
know, maybe fall in love withmusic and feel I could do it.
And I saw people who could doit, so I never had that thing
like I don't know if I couldever make it. I saw people people
came to our house and famous peopleall the time, and they were just
normal people that made it. SoI kind of yeah, that's part of
what I do on my podcast,who Is It's like normal humanize it.
It's like everybody had a success storyand doubts and fears and all that stuff.

(58:47):
It's just to get into that.So that part of it that was
wonderful to be around, exposed toall that. And I'd go to all
the recording sessions and sets and whowas the nicest person of that generation that
you dealt with and who was theworst? The person you're the nicest person
who was really cool is Carl Maldon. Right away when you said it,
I went, you know, therewas there are many a J. Caruthers,

(59:07):
this wonderful writer, Carl who's inthe documentary. Yeah, and Carl.
They'd have these dinner parties. Andmy dad loved like politicians and obscure
different things. He wasn't like myuncle was more like the Hollywood celebrity kind
of guy. So the mix ofpeople, bet Carl Maldon would come right
And I was in film school atUCLA at the time, and we just

(59:30):
watched on the on the Waterfront andwe had talked about how like, you
know, those scenes on the roofwith the birds and all the TV antennas,
and that it was because of theMcCarthy hearings and all this stuff was
going on. So I'm telling Carlthis whole thing. He's nodding at me
and he goes, that's all bullshit. He goes, who told you that?
He goes, he thought we wereon a roof there antenna's nobody thought

(59:52):
of that. You guys are overthinkingthings, And I just wanted that's you
know, those kind of things comingfrom Carl Malden, you know, I
mean that's didn't te about the otherside of it, the Elie Kazan part
of it, where he was usingit as his own excuse for why he
saw to the McCarthy. Yeah,he had a problem with that because he
was of course, you know,Carl was the other way. So yeah,

(01:00:14):
I know that movie is just amasterpiece of such a phenomenal movie.
I mean, politics aside, Butdo you know about the aspect ratio that
when they when they show it inthe UH one sixty six, which is
square in the famous car ride scenewith the two brothers, Okay, and

(01:00:36):
he's saying, uh contender, Icould have been a contemn that's right,
and his brother's asking him to takeyou know, there's a gun on his
lap, and you can see thegun in the square aspect ratio. When
you see it in the horizontal aspectratio, which is most movies, okay,

(01:00:58):
you don't see the gun. Itchanges everything. I just got chill.
It changes everything that's in it.That This is why I love the
Criterion people so much because they willdo this deep dive on these movies and
show you both aspect ratios and explainit. So it's like a film class,
like a different movie. It isa different scene at least, you

(01:01:21):
know. The other thing that thatCarl told me, which was so fascinating
because one of my favorite movies itwas Paton and I just loved, loved
Petty. And he said, didyou like George Scott's performance? Yeah,
I said, yeah, he goes. You know, he couldn't memorize lines.
So if you watch when I havescenes with him, he's reading my
chest. I had cards. Listen, Breando needed Robert Deval's head, Yeah,

(01:01:44):
I need the forehead in the frontrow holding up. But you know
what, that's that's a great actorbecause you never would have known it until
somebody pointed it out. I mean, you know he was able to get
past it. So who was theworst person David wanted to know? I
don't know such a lot. Now. Most people were really wonderful, you
know, especially if I met themthrough my parents because they were already friends.

(01:02:07):
They rode a party. What aboutPhil's proposed first wife, if he
had the chance, Julie Andrews,he Phil. Have you ever discussed Julie
Andrews with them? You're feeling mightbe too shy, but this is my
book. Even I wanted to marryher when I was four. I wanted
to be her when I was four. Yes, and I just I figured

(01:02:28):
it out at four years old.I felt pretty good about myself that I
knew who was married. I knewthere were problems. I knew I was
living living in the Bronx and shelived in or above London. Yes,
but we were going to work itout. And here I am years later,
and I kind of married Mary Poppins. She did, and I my

(01:02:49):
hall pass is Dick Van Dyke.I love him so Jeff that I could
marry him. Yeah, it's okaywith me. But Julie was We wanted
to get Julie obviously in the boys. Yeah, and so she lives out
here in the West Coast. Igot to meet her once and I almost
dropped out. And so her managerwas tough to get through. Yeah,
he's really, really, really thetoughest manager because probably people are asking for

(01:03:14):
her every five minutes. So hesaid, I'll tell you what. You
can have her for ten minutes ifyou come to New York to the Carlisle
Hotel, you use our crew,You pay for her makeup and her hair,
and her food and beverage. Iwent, okay, I got it.
She eats like a truck driver.How many white Castle Bergers. So

(01:03:37):
so we go and we sit downfor this thing, and the manager goes,
it's ten minutes. I went andJulie goes, what do you mean
they get ten minutes with you?And she says, oh, she touches
my niece. She goes, Jeffrey, your father and uncle made my career.
You can speak to me as longas you'd like. Oh, now
you want to marry her even Andthen this is the greatest thing. So

(01:03:59):
we get I could cry from atthe end of the at the end of
the thing, we all get inthe elevator because she's going down to her
room. And we get in theelevator to get a couple floors down.
The doors open, and this womanwalks in with her husband, sees she's
in the elevator with Julie Andrews andstarts to faint on me, and so
her husband and I kind of pickher up my ways and they go out,
and I said, she knows thathappens. Julie says that happens sometime.

(01:04:24):
Listen, I could faint from thestory. I just there's never been
a human being like her, forgetperformer that this is just one of you
know, proof that there might bea god. That lovely, amazing lovely,
and so is Dick Vandyke just amazing. They really got people who make

(01:04:45):
fun of his accent in the movie. Who cares? He's the most charming
talented. And to think they madethat movie on a hiatus from the Dick
van, like on a lot righthere, and it's that's the Amazon Purple.
I always think it was shot inEngland. I know it was just
all shot on disneys, dispect Iwent around them when I was a kids.

(01:05:08):
One of the entertainments movie Magic,Yeah, and when the people who
made the I hate disparaging anything,but when the people who made the Broadway
show or the London show, whateverI saw, they didn't understand the basic
meaning of the film. Well youknow that though, I mean it's not

(01:05:30):
often spoken about. But my dadand uncle wrote the first treatment for the
movie. I didn't know that.And in the books. They read all
the books, and my dad readthe books to me and my sister Laurie
in our bed chapter night, andthen he'd ask us what we thought about
it. They wrote this treatment,so I think I owed some royalty.
Excellent, but but they they wrotethis thing, and they pulled mister Banks

(01:05:57):
into the story. He's almost nonexistent in the first book. They saved
mister Bangs. Yeah, and theysaid it hats to be a story about
It was just basically episodes about MaryPoppins going on outings with the kids and
things. And so my dad anduncle said, no, it should be
about the fan. They need thisnanny because they're not really watching their kids.
And then the family comes together,and that was their contribution. And

(01:06:19):
they've expected to get a history meaningof the movie. You don't realize until
you're a dad, right, seeI think being a dad was great for
me because I think for some reason, as a kid, I hated kids
entertainment. I was one of thekids who always wanted to be watching something
slightly more sophisticated than That's what Ihad, slightly more sophistication, something with

(01:06:39):
a little less story, a littlemore action. But so for me,
it wasn't really until we had kidsand I would be taking them to like
the El Capitan for those reissues whereI said, oh, this is great
stuff. You know, it's notall great, no, but there was.
Mary Poppins is in a class byitself, a perfect piece of entertainment.
But I'd say the same thing aboutSound of the Music the following year.

(01:07:00):
How I mean, just that shedid those two things unbelievable, and
you know the story that she wassupposed to be My Fair Lady, of
course, and I would have givenanything to have seen heround Broadway do that.
And when she won the award,she thanked Jack Warner for casting her
so she could win. For MaryPotter, that's right, the best come

(01:07:20):
up. And sever in I wasallowed to do little in My Fair Lady
in law was in high school andI read the reviews. They were very
good to tell who he gave thereview. The review was written by Howard
Gordon, who then went on toproduce twenty four and write Big. I
know he went to my high school. A small world. It is a

(01:07:41):
small world, after all. Doyou feel proud that I think the conversation
about the Sherman brothers the boys kickedit off fifteen years ago. But I
think it really is the reason peoplelike when your uncle passed the other day,
the reaction was huge, And Ithink it's because you really created an
awareness and a depth of knowledge withyour film. And I don't know if

(01:08:05):
Ben Stiller played a part in it, because I just know he was a
producer. Did he help speaking abouta gifted, talented, brilliant NEPO baby.
Did he help put that financing orfilm together? What happened is Wendy's
really good friends with his sister,Amy Stiller, who's wonderful. And when
I was making we made a presentationof a twenty five minute presentation to sell

(01:08:26):
the concept to Disney, and soshe happened to come by that day and
I showed it to her. Shegoes, has Ben seen this? I
said, I've never met Ben.I doubt it, and she said,
he's got to see this. Doyou have a copy I can take?
I said yeah, I gave itto her and she goes, you have
an outline, and gave her theoutline and I got a phone call from
Ben that afternoon and he said,it's Ben Still I want to get involved
in this, and he said,what can I help you with? So

(01:08:47):
he became one of our executive producerson Nice and I believe, isn't he
And I'm a huge fan of hisand he's always been great to me.
But he is he doing a documentaryabout his parents now? I don't know.
I think so. If so,that's all Phil. I don't know
if you love Stiller and Mirror,of course I would have. I just
want to talk about them because youtalk about a married couple that was I

(01:09:09):
don't know if you what did youthink of them when you were They were
hilarious both together and as actors bythemselves. But there's a picture recently that
I saw of Jerry Seinfeld holding uptheir album of Stiller and Mirror, right,

(01:09:30):
so, I mean they have transcendedtime. There's a blooper on the
internet from Seinfeld where Julia Louis Driviscannot stop laughing at She could never get
it because he was just so funny. Well, Amy is my really close
friend and she was very close withboth of her parents. So I've got

(01:09:54):
to meet them. That's nice numeroustimes. Ann. Yeah you did meet
Anne. Ant thought you were Yeah, she said to me. She was
standing right next to me. Shegoes, if I what was it?
I don't know. If you weresingle and I were younger, you'd be
in trouble. Wow, pretty good. Phil said that to me when I
got here to right. So beforewe there's two things we have to hit

(01:10:16):
before we say goodbye. One is, you know, because there's not enough
podcasts in the world, can youtalk about how you entered you've entered the
podcast world. And also, becausewe like to talk music on this show,
who we all can agree on needsto get into the rock hall to
make that those two So those areour two things, but you take them

(01:10:38):
any order you prefer. Well,let's start with the Rock and Roll Hall
of Fame. Well, one ofmy best friends, who my best friend
in the world is Mickey Dolan's.Mickey is friend of the show. Yeah,
I listened to it was one arelative of Yeah, it's your cousin,
right. I've lied about that aswell. The Big Lie, Yeah,
I love that, the second BigLie. But I met Nicky through

(01:11:00):
we had the same agent. Westarted working together and everything. But I
was a Monkeys fan, like adie hard Monkeys sam when I was a
kid. It's just you know,it's right at the right age, and
just loved it. And we hada juke box, I had all the
songs and they've always you know,they were huge, remain huge. I
mean Mickey still tours all the time. He's the last remaining Monkey and they

(01:11:21):
were both at the last Mikey,that's right at the Greek Yeah. And
uh, the fact that they're notin the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame,
that's insane. It is insane.It's just it doesn't make any sense.
I'm a voter for ever and butI'm not a nominator, so I
don't have that power. But Imay have tweeted more about this one issue,

(01:11:43):
like my wife, you don't fightfor our marriage for the Monkeys,
and it's like, well, Ilove the Monkeys. I just think the
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame doesn'tmake sense if you don't have these hit
makers that had that many hits.And I know what it is. It's
that they were a cast band.That's it's partly. They also play their
own music, that's true. Itdoesn't matter how they came together and what

(01:12:06):
they accomplished. And they like everybodyelse's time, had the Wrecking Crew playing,
you know. I mean that's rightin that way, they made like
the Birds did early on the greatestrecords of all time. Quentin Tarantino,
we did a podcast on music forOnce upon a Time in Hollywood. He
goes, the two greatest lead singersof the era were Mark Lindsay and Mickey

(01:12:26):
Donalds. Really, he said that, and neither one need you know,
Paul Revere and the Raiders and Monkeys, they both deserve to be in the
Rock and Hall of Fame. Seefan zandt who I believe is very high
up in that. I think weneed to go to him. Look at
what can we do. Let's let'sdo an hour on his radio station just
talking about this because it's absolutely nuts. By the way, I think I've

(01:12:47):
been tweeting it. I won't sayX. Since it was like there's only
three left and now there is onemonkey stand what is that about power?
The people were in charge. Ithink it was Jan Lehner, John John
No, but Jane Jan two.Okay, what is it? My point

(01:13:09):
is, what does it cost themnothing to do this? Nothing? Nothing?
So why not do it? Whynot celebrate him while he's here?
And and what is this gate onthis thing? It is insane because it's
living. It's because they were atthe turning point, you know, that
moment where rock stars were always expectedto write all their own stuff. They're
held to some ridiculous standard, whichthey still deserve the reward on that basis

(01:13:33):
because Mike Nesmith wrote tons of greatsongs. Mickey wrote a few unbelievable songs
and is one of the greatest voicesof the whole era. They made some
of their best records without other musicians. They you know, they toured it.
There's no way they don't deserve it. And you know there's artists like
I'll tell you who we should gettogether with. You know that Mickey recorded,

(01:13:55):
uh the R. E. MRecord, Let's get Michael Stipe,
who always Michael Stack was like theBeatles are okay, I won't go this
far. He was always like,I like the Monkeys that was his band.
Let's do let's do a let's doa tour or some satellite. We
want to speak to the manager,Yes exactly. I will cry when they
get adopted. Yeah, I lovethem so much. Ahead, I just

(01:14:17):
want to say. And Three DogKnight, that's just my love them.
Yes, the favorite song when Iwas ten, Joe to the world.
They're there. Danny Hutton's a reallygood friend of ours, Danny and Loriie
Hutton. Tell him how much Ilove there. They're lovely people. And
Danny was the founder of the band. You know. He always a good
friend of Brian Wilson, right y, Yes, Brian recorded he had when

(01:14:39):
he was doing pet Sounds. Ithink he had Danny Seth through all the
sessions with him, and he sangoriginal versions of some of like good Vibrations
I think. I mean they werethat close and he was going to produce
Three Dog Night. Yeah, hewas going to call them red. They
were so good. Yeah, theystill perform him though, what it's a

(01:15:00):
different it's a different configure and whoeveris on stage with it. But it's
the catalog they made. They recorded. A ton of people have a career
because the Three Dog Knight, cutearly hits Elton John, they cut early
on Paul Williams, they cut earlyon Hoyde Axton. They obviously did it.

(01:15:24):
But so many great singer songwriters,and so what, John Hyatt,
you know something, The music itselfis what should be celebrated. It doesn't
make sense, you know, itdoesn't make sense. Okay, So we're
gonna put a little music in thisepisode. Give us your Sherman Brothers song.
You want to make sure we putin this episode. Your three Dog
Knight song. You want to makesure we put in this episode, and

(01:15:45):
your monkey songs? Uh, Threedog Knight for me is sham Beala,
I love sham balon lucky. Here, everyone is so kind, show up

(01:16:17):
what monkey song? It's so hard, there's so many. I'd have to
say I'm a believer because oh thebest you know, it's just such a
great neal diamond. Right, Yeah, thought love the only true and fairitance
then someone else, but not forme, love was out to get lived.

(01:16:45):
That's the way it seems. Disappointmentmy dream. Then I saw her
fat when we had because we havean episode with Mickey uh, and I
got to talk to him about oneof my where there's a dream you can't
believe is coming true. When theGrammys honored Neil Diamond with his Lifetime Achievement

(01:17:06):
Award, we didn't know if Neilwould come because of health reasons at that
moment, so I was I wascharged with, what are we going to
do on this PBS you know,Grammy Salute to Legends? And I said,
let's ask Mickey Dolance to do I'ma believer, So Mickey said yes.
Cut to a week before the show, Neil's wife calls Lovely Person and

(01:17:27):
she says, Neil wants to comeand sing, and I go, oh,
he can do anything he wants becauseother than I'm a believer because we
have Mickey Dolan's doing that. Andshe said, Neil wants to do I'm
a believer with Mickey Dolan's. Butthat's not The amazing part was because they've
never met. They had never met, and I got to be that when

(01:17:47):
they came together and met. Now, Mickey had wanted to come to a
Neil Diamond show at the Forum orsomething, and and he waved him from
you know, said Mickey Donalds ishere. But they had never actually met
until they sang it. Together.Is there a film of that? Yes,
I can well. I'd heard foryears that Neil wasn't happy that they
covered it, which is crazy becauseit was such a big hit. But

(01:18:09):
they changed the tempo or something ofit a little bit from how he did
it, and he was his templeslower. I don't know, I don't
you know. We were talking aboutsongs yesterday and we were talking about how
when the song September comes on earthyou you love you just you can't help
but dance around. I'm a believersame way. It's one of the great

(01:18:29):
pop songs ever written. I think, just amazing. Yeah, and from
your father and your uncle, Iknow what it would be. Today's feed
the Birds a little shot, andyou be glad you do. The young

(01:18:50):
ones mists are so bad. Ittakes so because the heart the heart of
the movie. That was Walt Disney'sfavorite song. And every people notice that
they've seen the film. But everyFriday, my dad and uncle had an
office down the hall in the Animationbuilding, third floor of the Animation Building

(01:19:13):
in Disney from them, and hewould call them down and he would say
play it, and my uncle wouldplay feed the Birds, and my dad
I don't think my dad sang alongwith it, but they would be there
together, and that's how he wouldend his week looking out at the studio
thinking about things. My favorite,I'm sorry, my favorite was Husha By
Mountain. A gentle breeze from HushabyMountain softly blows all Lullaby Bay. It

(01:19:45):
fills the sails of boats that arewaiting, waiting to sail. You're worries
away and I used to play thepiano together, and that's that was my
first introduction actually to the Sherman Brothers. I didn't even like. When I

(01:20:08):
met Jeff and they told me theSherman Brothers, I thought, wait,
aren't they British? And didn't theylive one hundred years ago? The Civil
War? Of him? Remember thatwas like a penn and teller. I
asked Pan if he would be inthe documentary and he said, now,
who are you? Dad? Uncle? I said, The Sherman brothers says,
what are they? Right? Isaid, Mary Poppins Jungle Books.

(01:20:30):
I figured they were like gay,hilarious And finally your podcast universe that you've
you've started, uh yes, andhow can we use that world to make
our show? Well, you guyshave to come on my show now next
when you're when you're in town.But the the the movies with is just

(01:20:51):
what we what. The way Igot into it was I was at a
film festival north It's called the PoppyJasper Film Festival, when I was on
a panel and it was a judgeand there was this woman on the panel
next to me, and she's brilliant. Her name is Norma Garcia and she
worked for Paramount for ten years ininternational marketing, then was George Lucas's head

(01:21:12):
of international marketing for ten years,and she was just I had to follow
her and I was intimidated. Atthe end of it, she said,
you know, let's keep in touchand we'll do all this. And she
called me up later and she'd metthis other guy, Rich Reid in Barcelona,
who's a big businessman in England,and he asked her to do a
podcast. She said, I'll doit if this other guy wants to do
it, because the last thing Iwant to do is perform, be in

(01:21:34):
front of a microphone or be oncamera. But they told me that they
wanted to do something about mentoring andphilanthropy, and those are two things I
do a lot of So that hookedme in and I thought I would do
it. So we've done thirty one. Oh and we've aired about ten of
them at nine or ten and it'syou know, it's a lot of work,

(01:21:56):
guys, they say, so harddoing the podcast. Yes, I
haven't started it yet. We're bankinginterviews right now. It's called Who's Up
With Wendy and Nancy. My partner, Nancy Cohen, is a television writer,
and we're talking about what keeps usup at night and what we're snacking

(01:22:17):
on at midnight. We wanted tocall it Midnight Snack, but that was
already taken, like every every titleis taken on a podcast. But anyway,
we love it. We it's ahalf an hour, so you can
listen before you go to sleep insteadof in lieu of snacking. No,
no, while you're so we lovehaving you both. I'm just thrilled to

(01:22:42):
see you both a couple of years. I know it's been a while.
Yeah, so we have to comeback. Podcast to come back, even
without microphones. Please please, thanksfor the langers I have to I can't
finish. I can't. You're takhim part home. I'm taking most of
mine own well. Thank you,guys, thank you, thank you.

(01:23:06):
Naked Lunch is a podcast by PhilRosenthal and David Wilde. Theme song and
music by Brad Paisley. Produced byWill Sterling. Executive produced by Phil Rosenthal,
David Wilde, and our consulting journalistis Pamela Chellen. If you enjoyed
the show, share it with afriend. But if you can't take my
word for it, take Phil's anddon't forget to leave a good rating and
review we like five stars. Thanksfor listening to Naked Lunch, a Lucky

(01:23:30):
Bastard's production.