Self-Awareness is the First Step to Emotional Fitness (Podcast)

This is a Closer Look at Susan Packard. She was on the startup teams for HBO and CNBC and the cofounder of HGTV and Scripps Networks Interactive, which became one of the fastest growing cable networks in television history. In 2008 she was inducted into the Cable Hall of Fame. She is the author of the bestseller, “New Rules of the Game: 10 Strategies for Women in the Workplace.”  Susan Packard joins former SEC chairman Arthur Levitt to talk about her new book, “Fully Human: 3 Steps to Grow Your Emotional Fitness. It’s been 25 years since Daniel Golman introduced us to “Emotional Intelligence,” or “EQ,” and “Fully Human” sets out to bring EQ current for the realities of the new workplace

Host: Arthur Levitt

Producer: Madena Parwana

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a closer look with Arthur Levitt. Arthur Levitt
is a former chairman of the u S Securities and
Exchange Commission, a Bloomberg LP board member, a senior advisor
to the Promontory Financial Group, and a policy adviser to
Goldman Sachs. This is a closer look at Susan Packard.

(00:21):
She was on the startup teams for HBO and c
NBC and the co founder of h G t V
and Scripts Networks Interactive, which became one of the fastest
growing cable networks in television history. In two thousand and eight,

(00:41):
she was inducted into the Cable Hall of Fame. She's
the author of the best seller New Rules of the Game,
Ten Strategies for Women in the Workplace, but she's here
today to talk about her new book, Fully Human, Three
Steps to Grow Your Emotional Fitness. It's been twenty five

(01:05):
years since Daniel Goldman introduced us to emotional intelligence or EQ,
and Fully Human sets out to bring EQ current for
the realities of the new workplace. Susan joins me now
for a closer look. Susan, we're all familiar with the

(01:27):
term emotional intelligence or EQ, and you say that your
book reimagines emotional intelligence, bringing it current with the realities
of two thousand and nineteen. Just what are these new realities.
First of all, thank you for having me on the show, Arthur,

(01:50):
And yeah, there are many new realities. Um the massive
deployment of technology today in the workplace. When each was
first given to us in the nineties, the internet was
just really starting to take off. And to have some
context on that, h G t V and Amazon both

(02:11):
launched in four So when you think about the world
in the world of today, they're very much different. And
so this massive deployment of technology, for example, is a
really good thing, but it can also be a dangerous
thing in terms of how we relate to one another

(02:32):
and use our emotional intelligence or in my terminology, um
our emotional fitness. So so technology can be a great thing,
but it can also be a separator and a divider um.
You know, screens can become barriers between people and so

(02:54):
you know, one of the things that my book sets
out to do is to deal with that and to
talk about ways that we can work with technology and
that it doesn't that it isn't a separator or a
barrier between us. So so that's one big change. Another
big change is the nineties were really a time of um,

(03:19):
you know, the the internet bubble head, and first there
was a lot of optimism, and then of course two
thousands hit us and we had nine eleven, and we
had the financial crisis, and you know, and even just
last year we had I think it was three d
and four mass shootings, almost one a day. So being

(03:40):
able to bring our most emotionally productive selves into the
workplace today is much harder than it was, and so
you know, that's also something that ideal was in the book. Um,
we bring a lot of unsettled emotion today in just

(04:01):
naturally into the workplace, anxiety and the chaos, and many
of us feel tremendous loneliness and so all of these things,
fear lack of safety. So you know, how do we
deal with those unproductive emotions so that we can sort
of shine in the workplace with our most productive selves.

(04:22):
I see some resistance to your book as being too
spiritual or all about emotions and business is tough game.
But as you point out, we've seen executives from Wells Fargo,
Volkswagen Uber, to name just a few, involved in abuse

(04:43):
of power and consumer cover ups. Studies show that one
out of five CEO s of psychopathic traits. Maybe there
is a spiritual problem. How did we get here? Well,
I think a lot of entitlement is how we got here. Um.
I think that the leaders that are in UM, the

(05:05):
leaders you mentioned and others like them, forgot about using
emotional intelligence. And in fact, you know, the research bears
out that at the CEO level it's the lowest UM
level in an organization in terms of using emotional good
emotional intelligence. So something happens between middle management, which is

(05:28):
researched as the highest level and getting into that executive suite.
And UM, I think it's entitlement and ego and all
those traps that we fall into. When you coach people,
what has usually gone wrong that makes them willing to
seek out your help? Well, what's usually gone wrong is

(05:51):
not so much one specific thing, as they feel they
could be more successful and they're not sure what's blocking them.
So we go through a process of self awareness and UM,
from there, you know it helps them. So for example,
a quick example would be that one of the people

(06:15):
I worked with, she hadn't realized that she was feeling
so marginalized by her mother when she worked in her
mother's business, and you know, she needed to take control
and ownership of her own life in her own career
rather instead of her mother's version of it. So things

(06:36):
like that can get in the way. You mastered the
competitive game the way men have played it and wrote
about that in your first book. So is this new
book that balanced to that one, advocating for the traditional
female traits of collaboration and vulnerability. The first book was

(06:59):
about how we can succeed in our outer lives, our
outer work lives, through behaviors, actions, and strategies. The second book,
this current book, Fully Human, is about how we succeed
by growing an inner life and you know, becoming the

(07:19):
leader of our own life, which means understanding what we
stand for, what our principles are, and how we're going
to lead others. You know, we can't lead others until
we lead ourselves. The second step to emotional fitness is trust.
To illustrate this point, tell the story in the book

(07:41):
about the first budget you did for h G t V.
The I was about in six or eight months into
h G t v's job, and we did our budgets
and we had until midnight or see. Um CFO said hey,
you know we have a do midnight to to upload them.
So about loving thirty, I uploaded my budgets, did a

(08:04):
final review and realized that I'd made this great error
that was going to cost my team's a whole lot
of money. Well, in my former company, they would have
just dismissed this and I would have probably gotten um
in some way kind of castigated or whatever the case
may be. But in this case, Jim Clayton, who was

(08:27):
my CFO, I called him at midnight and I said,
you know, here's what's happened. And he said, well, look sus,
let's just get in in the morning together and we'll
fix the problem. So that that his willingness to just
have my back in that moment was it was really
a transformative moment for me in leadership. How can you

(08:51):
assess if trust is part of a company's culture when
deciding on a job offer? Right? Well, Um, when you're
faced in a situation with a job offer, and you know,
as I say in the book, trust is such a
critical component. Um, some of the things you can do

(09:14):
is ask whoever it is you're interviewing with at the
very question, how do you feel in terms of this
this environment being a trustworthy one. Now you know the
first person you talked to will most likely give you
the most politically correct answer, right, So somehow you have
to dig deeper than that. You might ask to meet

(09:37):
or talk to on the phone, or others in the
organization you know who have been there six months, a
year or longer, and by getting some sense from them
is really the best validation of whether trust is something
that exists in that organization. HDTV was turning a profit,

(09:59):
moving and its fourth year, and I know that the
industry standard is seven to ten years. Why do you
think you were so successful in growing the business? We
were so successful in growing the business for a couple
of reasons. One was we all did trust one another

(10:20):
and have each other's backs, and so we moved very
quickly with speed and focus. Um the it was a
good idea and right for its time. It was another reason,
but I think as important as those two were, we
saw our culture in our organization, the people that we
worked with as partners, and we saw our customers as partners.

(10:44):
Everything we did, everything the startup team did, we looked
at through a lens of are we being a good partner,
you know, with our customers or are we being a
good partner with our employees? And that was an important
element in our success. Do you think that there's only
one kind of ideal culture that can be successful? No,

(11:10):
absolutely not. I don't think there's one kind that can
be successful. I think that the leadership sets the tone
for the culture. And I think if the leadership is accessible, visible, honest, um,
than the personality of the company will take many different forms.

(11:30):
And you know, I worked at three different companies that
were all successful, and the cultures couldn't be more different. Um.
It's it's just what do you want as an individual?
You know, what fits you? That's the question you have
to ask yourself. You write about the moment when you
said it was time to go after sixteen years growing

(11:53):
h G t V and Scripts Networks. How does EQ
Fitness help you think through made your decision like this?
I was actually, um, a little surprised myself. But and
first of all, I'm surprised I've been anywhere for sixteen
years because I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a builder. Um, but
this place I had, I just kept reinventing myself with many,

(12:15):
many new areas that needed to be um developed and
executed on. So UM because it was a startup, I
was able to have five or six different jobs. UM.
So that's the first thing is know yourself. You know,
how well do you know yourself? I knew that I
had an entrepreneurial passion and so the ability to reinvent

(12:39):
yourself in a company is really important. And if you're
that kind of person. But if processes is what really
where you shine and what you love, then those are
the kinds of jobs you should seek out. So it
all starts with self awareness, and you know that's the
first step in emotional fitness. Tell me about out Churchill Downs.

(13:02):
How did that come about in the midst of all
the work you're doing in the cable industry. Yeah, that
was sort of an interesting story. Um I had kind
of reached out to me asked me if I'd have
an interest in serving on a public board. I was still,
you know, deep in the saddle at h G t
v UM and you know that that experience UM I

(13:26):
thought could broaden me. So I met with the the
nominating committee and the CEO, and they were looking for
someone who had television background, but also new business background
UM because at that point the business itself was the
Kentucky Derby, you know, that was the whole business. And

(13:47):
unfortunately that was only one day out of three, you know,
out of the whole year, and there were tracks that
the company owned, and you know, so so my work
was to help the board reimagine the business and get
better use out of the tracks and get better marketing
for UM for the other things that it was doing.

(14:10):
And one quick example is that they hadn't done any
night racing because they hadn't put lights in the tracks
to do night racing, and you know, so we we
recommended that they that they do that, and from that
we got a lot of younger people that would come
out on a Friday night date and you know, use

(14:33):
the track and watch the races and and so it
was those kinds of things that we did. I've got
to ask you about the new star in Congress, Ao
c already so well known, she needs no name. She
just told a group of young tech innovators, when you

(14:54):
decide you want to be just brave, it opens up
way more possibilities than trying to be perfect. Ever, does
would you agree with that? And do you think she
displays e Q fitness. Is that why she's caught on
like she has? You know, I think there's a lot
of reasons and um, she's caught on. Um, you know,

(15:18):
she has a lot of reasons that she's appealing. And yeah,
you know, the whole thing about being brave versus being perfect,
I think perfect is really the enemy of being successful
in a lot of ways. Um, and women especially, we
end up wanting to just be so perfect about everything.
And you know, the guys are over there talking and

(15:40):
you know, playing their next golf date. It's, Um, I
don't know why we we are that way, women are
that way. But brave is doing things in fear. I
don't know anyone anyone who's fear who has no fear.
Um to me, they're not human, they're barely human. Right,
So your reckless reckless exactly or entitled you know, feeling

(16:05):
that they don't need to have fear because they're so
worthy right of being in their job. So um, yeah,
a brave brave just means um, taking action with fear
and pushing through the fear. Are you right that the
third step for emotional fitness is the WE principles used

(16:26):
to create a collaborative workplace culture. What does that mean, Well,
it means that eq FIT leaders have figured out the
balance between power and grace. You know, me ego, which
we need. We need ego to be successful, and so
it survived the workplace often. And and we which is

(16:50):
moving myself aside for a greater good and in this
case the greater good of the organization. And they have
figured out that balance and they trade one with the
other depending upon what the situation is. And um, because
again you're the leader, so you need to command a room,
and you do need to have that kind of leadership skill,

(17:13):
which is ego. Um, it's the nicest, I guess I
would say it's the it's the good form of ego.
But they also need to recognize that they are nothing
without the organization under them, without the people under them
who do the work. And if they don't get to

(17:34):
that place, then they will never be able to practice
WEE principles and be successful. You write about mindfulness and meditation,
saying that you understand if people roll their eyes, but
there are many CEOs who meditate. Mark Benioff of Salesforce,

(17:57):
Jeff Weener of LinkedIn, and Ray Daio to name just
a few. Remind us of the mental and physical benefits
of meditation. Well, one thing that meditation helps with is detachment.
So and that helps you with emotional fitness because you're

(18:18):
not automatically. You're not just an impulse reacting to something
you hear or some feedback or whatever the case may be. Susan,
on your blog, you write about a recent trip to
Italy to attend a small conference of senior level women
running worldwide multibillion dollar portfolios. What did you discover about

(18:44):
the state of women in leadership? Well, the main thing
that we reaffirmed was that there aren't enough of us
in leadership, and we talked about, you know, how would
we move ahead to make a difference. And from that
UM a movement which is called Paradigm for Parity P

(19:05):
for P was evolved. And today, you know, there are
a number of women who have gotten commitments from some
of the largest organizations that their their senior leadership will
have x percent of women by a certain date. And
you know, sometimes it just takes that kind of you know,

(19:28):
setting those kinds of UM goals and for organizations so
that we can get women in better place into senior leadership.
I'm surprised that the number of women running major companies
is on the decline. Fewer than five percent of companies

(19:48):
in the standard and Poor's five now have female chief executives.
Why do you think this number is so low? There
was a female CEO of a fortune company that I
was talking to one day and she was leaving the organization,
and I said, why are you leaving? And she said,

(20:11):
why would I want to stay? Um? You know, her perspective,
which I think is the perspective of of a lot
of women, is that, UM, you know, it's it's still
the rules that apply. In the largest of companies with boards, UM,
for example, you know, almost completely still male. I mean,

(20:36):
we're making some strides there, but you're when you're only
one voice, even though you're CEO to a board that
has many voices, and you're you know, continuously being out
voted on things that could make a meaningful difference in
your organization. That so, I think the next step for

(21:00):
not only do we need women, more women CEOs, but
we definitely need more women in board. In the boardrooms,
boards of directors are responsible for choosing chief executives, and
studies show that they tend to bring in CEOs who
are similar to themselves. So do you think the solution

(21:23):
starts in the boardroom? Oh? I think that the solution
starts at every level, and that includes the CEO level.
And look, I mean, you know Elizabeth Holmes has been indicted,
you know, because of Sarnos. It's not this is not
just male you know, And this isn't this isn't about

(21:44):
male bashing, right, you know, this is about getting leadership
in place that is enlightened enough to have the emotional
wellness of their organization on their radar. It's not just
you know, their own emotional fitness, it's the emotional fitness
of the entire organization. Knowing you'd have to have your

(22:07):
head in the stand to not know that today there's
so much unsettled emotions that you know your workforce is
bringing in. So to pay attention to that and to
have systems and processes in place today to help your workforce,
that's what um, you know, that's how you'll grow a
more productive, successful company. How do you start your day?

(22:31):
Would you start my day with UM, a cup of
coffee and then I meditate, and then I do some
reading and then I write. How often do you meditate
during the day twice, once in the morning and once
around the dinner hour for how long twenty minutes? You

(22:53):
write that. Once in a while, I pick up my
first book, New Rules of the Aim, and I see
perspectives I've gained since then. When it comes to emotional intelligence,
What have you learned? I think what I've learned in
part of self compassion. When I look at that first book,

(23:15):
I wrote it right out of corporate you know, right
out of the corporate world. Um. You know, I'd helped
to grow this enormous company I left and I wrote
this book, and you can still see some of that rigidity.
Um And I mean, I love that book. It's my
first book. But this second book, you know, that one

(23:39):
was really about the outer As I said before, it
was it's the it's all the outer accouterments to how
do you be successful? How do you navigate an organization successfully?
But this second book is a much deeper um dive
into what a leader needs to be thinking about and asking.

(24:00):
You know, often a leader needs to be asking where
does this lead? And that's one of those questions that
your outer brain is not going to ask, but your
inner one is and needs to so it's you know,
it's a perspective. That's a richer perspective that I have
today that I didn't have when I wrote that first book.

(24:22):
Is there a company or a leader out there that
you wish you could advise before they go down the
wrong path too far? Um? No, I know, not really, UM.
I mean I am UM. That would assume that somebody's
fairly new in the job. The individual who took Travis

(24:46):
Colonics role at Uber whose name I can't recall his name,
but he seems to be doing some really terrific things
to add to bring transparency to the organization, and I
know that his board is helping him with that. UM.
I really can't think of anyone individual. She was the

(25:07):
co founder of Scripts Networks Interactive and former chief operating
officer of h G t V, which became one of
the fastest growing cable networks in television history. In two
thousand and eight, she was inducted into the Cable Hall
of Fame. She just published her second book, where she

(25:29):
shares insights gained during her years at h G t V.
Fully Human Three Steps to Grow Your Emotional Fitness. Susan Packard,
thanks for joining us. By the way, if you have
comments about the show or suggestions for topics, please email
me at a Closer Look at bloomberg dot net. That's

(25:51):
a closer look one word at Bloomberg dot net and
follow me on Twitter at Arthur Levitt. This is a
close to Look with Arthur Levitt. It's twenty five minutes
passed the ouch. Mhm.