June 25, 2024 • 13 mins
LVMH has a sprawling portfolio of brands synonymous with luxury: Christian Dior, Louis Vuitton, Fendi, Bulgari, Celine, Tiffany & Co., Hennessy and Veuve Clicquot. Its CEO, Bernard Arnault, almost never speaks to journalists and doesn’t have the name recognition of the likes of Jeff Bezos or Elon Musk, but regularly vies with them for the title of richest person in the world and has an almost impossible-to-measure influence over the business world.
Bloomberg Businessweek’s Brad Stone and reporter Angelina Rascouët recently landed a rare interview with Arnault, where they learned how he built his empire from the ground up. And they consider a burning question: At 75 years old with five grown children in the business, what are his plans for succession?
Read more: The House of Arnault
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Bernard Arnaud is one
of the richest men in the world. He's right up
there with Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk on the Bloomberg
Billionaires Index. But Arnault, who runs the luxury goods company LVMH,
doesn't have the same name recognition as the founder of
Amazon or the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I knew almost nothing about him.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Brad Stone is the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, who spent
most of his career covering big tech, and Brad says
it was his relative unfamiliarity with Arnault and the sprawling
empire Arnault has built that made him so eager to
sit down with the French billionaire.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
His accomplishments are much different. He hasn't invented the future.
If anything, he has marketed the past, and yet he
has assembled just as much power and resources as a
lot of the tech titans we think of being icons
of the business world. There's a lot of value still
in in luxury retail, in high end travel, in high
(01:07):
end spirits. It's a completely different business, right. We don't
think of it in the same way as AI or
e commerce or software, and yet in a lot of ways,
it's just as influential in people's lives.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Over the last four decades, Arnault has acquired dozens and
dozens of the world's best known and most coveted brands,
including Dior, Fendi and Celine, Tiffany and Bulgari, Hennessy and Vovkliko.
LVMH's customers include kings and queens and presidents and countless
celebrities and supermodels all over the world.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
He's an icon. He's extraordinarily admired. Even people in Silicon
Valley in tech have started to look at Arnau and
the LVMH playbook with a lot of admiration.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Other executives, Brad says, marvel at what Arnaut has put together.
It's an unrivaled portfolio of more than seventy brands. But
LVMH also has an elaborate marketing arm and the collection
of some of the most valuable real estate in the world.
It's a profit making machine.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I do think Arnaud has now emerged as one of
these business leaders whose playbook should be copied and emulated.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I'm David Gera, and this is the big take from
Bloomberg News on today's show Bernard Arnault, the hard driving,
multi billionaire businessman who's come to be known as the
Wolf in Kashmere. Just how did he build this empire
and turn it into that profit making machine. After months
(02:47):
of trying, Bloomberg BusinessWeek editor Bradstone and Angelina Rescuett, who
covers luxury goods for Bloomberg, landed a rare interview with
Bernard Arnault, who almost never speaks to journalists. He invited
them to LVMH headquarters in Paris's opulent eighth Arrondissement.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
We were led into a conference room with this extraordinary
art on the walls, three war hals, a Picasso, of course,
leaning in the corner, waiting to be hung, you know,
grand views of Paris outside the window. Mister Arnaud comes in.
I mean, what can you say? You know, I've spent
a career interviewing the schlubs of tech, and Arnault is
(03:24):
exquisitely dressed, a Dior suit, Berluti shoes. You know, just
an aura of elegance that you really don't find, or
I haven't found in most of the business executives I've
interviewed in my career.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Brad, you put on your suit, your your one suit
for these I.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Did, I dusted. Yeah, he was wearing the Ore and Berluti.
I had on suit Supply and Nordstrom rack. But still,
you know, it made for a good photo.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Arnault has climbed and clawed his way to the top
from his childhood in northern France. His mom was a pharmacist,
and Arnault started out at the family construction company, but
Angelina says he had an epiphany about what the rest
of his career could look like on a trip to
the United States.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
He was talking to a taxi driver in New York
City and he asked them, you know was the most
famous person that you know? Do you know the name
of the French president. The person couldn't name the French president.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
The one famous French person the cab driver could name
was legendary fashion designer Christian Dior, and that's stuck with Arnault,
who went on to buy that brand out of bankruptcy
in nineteen eighty four. In the years that followed, Arnault
acquired other fashion houses, along with watchmakers and jewelry designers
and the cosmetics retailer Sephora Brat. When you look at
(04:38):
this company as a whole, how do all of these
brands work together.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah. To the casual shopper, it may seem like they're
totally separate, but behind the scenes, there are incredible synergies
on economies of scale, from the supply chain to marketing,
the way in which they can command lower rates across
all the media properties in the world, to executives who
(05:03):
will shuffle from one brand to the other. So lots
of synergies behind the scenes and ways in which it's
just easier for them to go and higher celebrities, higher
ambassadors sponsor the Olympics. They're a primary sponsor of the
Paris Olympics.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Brad says, Arnaut's empire has a huge real estate footprint.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
He has literally exported luxury and all the little decisions
and details that go into it all around the world.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
There are other luxury groups that own other brands, but
really in that scale, he's pretty unique.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
One of the secrets to his success, which is also
the envy of LVMH's rivals, is Arno's understanding of the
magic and the power of celebrity, which Brad says goes
back to the early days of Arno's career.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
He had his designer reinvent the door handbag line, and
in the nineties, Lady Diana, on one of her trips
to South America, was carrying the bag. A global frenzy ensued.
They renamed it the Lady do Or Bag and they
sold hundreds of thousands of them.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
He's just done that again and again. Luxury goods are
a high margin business, Brad says. And to succeed a
company like LVMH has to strike a very delicate balance.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know, you might be selling one hundred dollars handbag
for one thousand dollars or more. And so what are
people buying. They're buying a brand, They're buying an essence,
They're buying maybe the way in which their friends or
people will think of them if they're holding the item.
And so are no recognized that you need to invest
these brands in desirability and elegance, and that is what
(06:38):
he has done so well.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And Arnault is preoccupied with desirability, Angelina says.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
The tricky question is how do you make sure you
keep on growing, you know, revenue for your brands while
not over exposing them. That's really a very difficult one
to hit. You know, some of the luxury brands out there,
they can be overexposed, and that's that's very difficult. So yeah,
that's his obsession.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
In an economy where luxury can be increasingly out of
reach and questions swirl about the ethics of producing and
selling high end goods at a markup our nose brands
are still desired by so many and they're seen as
status symbols by the most fashionable and powerful people in
the world. So how does he do it? What's happening
(07:23):
inside the c suite at LVMH, and how is ourn
setting up the company to carry on when he's no
longer running it. That's after the break. LVMH is a
four hundred billion dollar company. It had two hundred and
(07:44):
thirteen thousand employees at the end of last year. That's
more than Apple and Bloomberg's Angeline Rascuette says, Bernard Arnaut
is intimately involved in every aspect of the business.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Every Saturday, bernardout is known to drop in on his stores.
So of course he's at the fashion shows. Of course
he's you know, meeting hanging out with the creative people.
But you know, his business at the end of the
day is retail and retail is detailed, so he'll go
into the stores and then he'll talk to the sales assistant,
and then he'll you know, send emails or text to
(08:17):
his managers telling him what he thinks and how this
bag maybe should be this category should be exhibited somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Perhaps unsurprisingly then, Arnaud also has a reputation for being
a bit of a micromanager. He's concerned with details as
specific as the brand of shoes that sales associates wear
in his stores. Obviously he wants them to wear LVMH
brands head to toe. He's involved in the day to
day in a way Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos aren't anymore,
(08:45):
but the companies they started well. Asked Bradstone if he
caught glimpses of that fastidiousness when he talked to Arnaut,
And if Arnault is involved in the nitty gritty on
the creative side of the business, is he telling Grammy
winner Pharrell Williams, who's now one of the creative directors
at Louis Viton, what he should and shouldn't do.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
David, I don't get the impression that there is any
aspect of the business that mister Arna is not involved
in Look. Does he go and micromanage the actual sort
of camouflage design on the men'swear jacket that Louis Viton.
Probably not, but he is certainly involved in the hiring
of the fashion the creative directors, and the ambassadors at
(09:26):
every house Look. I think he looks at everything, not
just the creative side, but the executives and how each
business is run and how it's doing on a daily
and weekly basis.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Given our no's relentless focus on image and reputation, I
wanted to understand from Angelina how he's navigating another hot
button issue at his companies, recent reporting of unsafe and
illegal labor practices in the factories that make LVMH goods.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Sometimes you do your best to de trait' sability tracking
all these labor conditions, but sometimes when it's too removed. Yeah,
their struggle in even LVMH has struggle.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
And recent Bloomberg reporting reporting we featured on this podcast
found serious problems in LVMH owned Lororo Piana's supply chain,
including paltry compensation for indigenous workers in Peru who shear
the wool used in some of the world's most expensive sweaters.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Their response was like, we'll look into it and we'll
make sure to fix what we can fix.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
At the time of Bloomberg's reporting, Loro Piana also stressed
their economic support for the local community. Our nose degree
of involvement in his company raises another question, what happens
when he's no longer at the helm. His age now
seventy five has outside observers looking for clues about what
LVMH's future could look like. He recently raised the CEO
(10:45):
retirement age at the company from seventy five to eighty
and Warren Buffett wrote to him after that to tell
our No, he made a mistake setting that new limit.
So Low Buffett, who is ninety three, still runs Berkshire Hathaway.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
The big question is who will succeed him when he's
no longer around, and obviously some of the candidates include
his five children, who were all work inside LVMATS.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And they're all seen as potential heirs or heiress's apparent
are No's eldest daughter is the CEO of Christian Dior Couture.
Is eldest son is an executive at LVMH. Another son
is the number two at Tiffany and His two youngest
sons are involved in the company's watch business, which Brad
says is an area where LVMH might make more acquisitions.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
He has brought more kind of thinking and precision to
succession than I've seen almost anywhere. Right, and the way
in which they have designed the holding companies, the way
in which the five kids, who all have equal shares
of one of the holding companies, have to agree for
a period of many decades. None of them can withdraw
from the business. They can't unilaterally pass any major strategic decisions.
(11:56):
And so he's thought not just about succession, but about
preserving the peace among his heirs, and that is where
so many other family owned companies have suffered. So he's
really thought about how to avoid the famous pitfalls. This
is not the roy family for now.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Though Arnot says he has no plans to retire, He'll
keep visiting stores every Saturday as long as he can.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
This is an ambition fueled multi decade spree to develop
an unassailable and generations long empire in luxury. I think
like this guy. Even though people talk about retirement, they
talk about succession. He is still an empire building mode.
And I don't think he will stop until he has to.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gura.
Today's episode is produced by Thomas Leu. It was edited
by Aaron Edwards. It was fact checked by Arafat Gelosso
Perry and Adriana Tapia. It was mixed by Blake Maples.
Kim Giittleson and Naomi Shaven are our senior producer. Old
Beemster Borr is our executive producer. Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's
(13:04):
head of podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Please follow
and review The Big Take wherever you get your podcasts.
It helps new listeners find the show. We'll be back
tomorrow
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Bernard Arnaud is one
of the richest men in the world. He's right up
there with Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk on the Bloomberg
Billionaires Index. But Arnault, who runs the luxury goods company LVMH,
doesn't have the same name recognition as the founder of
Amazon or the CEO of Tesla and SpaceX.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
I knew almost nothing about him.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Brad Stone is the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, who spent
most of his career covering big tech, and Brad says
it was his relative unfamiliarity with Arnault and the sprawling
empire Arnault has built that made him so eager to
sit down with the French billionaire.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
His accomplishments are much different. He hasn't invented the future.
If anything, he has marketed the past, and yet he
has assembled just as much power and resources as a
lot of the tech titans we think of being icons
of the business world. There's a lot of value still
in in luxury retail, in high end travel, in high
(01:07):
end spirits. It's a completely different business, right. We don't
think of it in the same way as AI or
e commerce or software, and yet in a lot of ways,
it's just as influential in people's lives.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Over the last four decades, Arnault has acquired dozens and
dozens of the world's best known and most coveted brands,
including Dior, Fendi and Celine, Tiffany and Bulgari, Hennessy and Vovkliko.
LVMH's customers include kings and queens and presidents and countless
celebrities and supermodels all over the world.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
He's an icon. He's extraordinarily admired. Even people in Silicon
Valley in tech have started to look at Arnau and
the LVMH playbook with a lot of admiration.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Other executives, Brad says, marvel at what Arnaut has put together.
It's an unrivaled portfolio of more than seventy brands. But
LVMH also has an elaborate marketing arm and the collection
of some of the most valuable real estate in the world.
It's a profit making machine.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
I do think Arnaud has now emerged as one of
these business leaders whose playbook should be copied and emulated.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
I'm David Gera, and this is the big take from
Bloomberg News on today's show Bernard Arnault, the hard driving,
multi billionaire businessman who's come to be known as the
Wolf in Kashmere. Just how did he build this empire
and turn it into that profit making machine. After months
(02:47):
of trying, Bloomberg BusinessWeek editor Bradstone and Angelina Rescuett, who
covers luxury goods for Bloomberg, landed a rare interview with
Bernard Arnault, who almost never speaks to journalists. He invited
them to LVMH headquarters in Paris's opulent eighth Arrondissement.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
We were led into a conference room with this extraordinary
art on the walls, three war hals, a Picasso, of course,
leaning in the corner, waiting to be hung, you know,
grand views of Paris outside the window. Mister Arnaud comes in.
I mean, what can you say? You know, I've spent
a career interviewing the schlubs of tech, and Arnault is
(03:24):
exquisitely dressed, a Dior suit, Berluti shoes. You know, just
an aura of elegance that you really don't find, or
I haven't found in most of the business executives I've
interviewed in my career.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Brad, you put on your suit, your your one suit
for these I.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Did, I dusted. Yeah, he was wearing the Ore and Berluti.
I had on suit Supply and Nordstrom rack. But still,
you know, it made for a good photo.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Arnault has climbed and clawed his way to the top
from his childhood in northern France. His mom was a pharmacist,
and Arnault started out at the family construction company, but
Angelina says he had an epiphany about what the rest
of his career could look like on a trip to
the United States.
Speaker 3 (04:08):
He was talking to a taxi driver in New York
City and he asked them, you know was the most
famous person that you know? Do you know the name
of the French president. The person couldn't name the French president.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
The one famous French person the cab driver could name
was legendary fashion designer Christian Dior, and that's stuck with Arnault,
who went on to buy that brand out of bankruptcy
in nineteen eighty four. In the years that followed, Arnault
acquired other fashion houses, along with watchmakers and jewelry designers
and the cosmetics retailer Sephora Brat. When you look at
(04:38):
this company as a whole, how do all of these
brands work together.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah. To the casual shopper, it may seem like they're
totally separate, but behind the scenes, there are incredible synergies
on economies of scale, from the supply chain to marketing,
the way in which they can command lower rates across
all the media properties in the world, to executives who
(05:03):
will shuffle from one brand to the other. So lots
of synergies behind the scenes and ways in which it's
just easier for them to go and higher celebrities, higher
ambassadors sponsor the Olympics. They're a primary sponsor of the
Paris Olympics.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
Brad says, Arnaut's empire has a huge real estate footprint.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
He has literally exported luxury and all the little decisions
and details that go into it all around the world.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
There are other luxury groups that own other brands, but
really in that scale, he's pretty unique.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
One of the secrets to his success, which is also
the envy of LVMH's rivals, is Arno's understanding of the
magic and the power of celebrity, which Brad says goes
back to the early days of Arno's career.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
He had his designer reinvent the door handbag line, and
in the nineties, Lady Diana, on one of her trips
to South America, was carrying the bag. A global frenzy ensued.
They renamed it the Lady do Or Bag and they
sold hundreds of thousands of them.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
He's just done that again and again. Luxury goods are
a high margin business, Brad says. And to succeed a
company like LVMH has to strike a very delicate balance.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know, you might be selling one hundred dollars handbag
for one thousand dollars or more. And so what are
people buying. They're buying a brand, They're buying an essence,
They're buying maybe the way in which their friends or
people will think of them if they're holding the item.
And so are no recognized that you need to invest
these brands in desirability and elegance, and that is what
(06:38):
he has done so well.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And Arnault is preoccupied with desirability, Angelina says.
Speaker 3 (06:44):
The tricky question is how do you make sure you
keep on growing, you know, revenue for your brands while
not over exposing them. That's really a very difficult one
to hit. You know, some of the luxury brands out there,
they can be overexposed, and that's that's very difficult. So yeah,
that's his obsession.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
In an economy where luxury can be increasingly out of
reach and questions swirl about the ethics of producing and
selling high end goods at a markup our nose brands
are still desired by so many and they're seen as
status symbols by the most fashionable and powerful people in
the world. So how does he do it? What's happening
(07:23):
inside the c suite at LVMH, and how is ourn
setting up the company to carry on when he's no
longer running it. That's after the break. LVMH is a
four hundred billion dollar company. It had two hundred and
(07:44):
thirteen thousand employees at the end of last year. That's
more than Apple and Bloomberg's Angeline Rascuette says, Bernard Arnaut
is intimately involved in every aspect of the business.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Every Saturday, bernardout is known to drop in on his stores.
So of course he's at the fashion shows. Of course
he's you know, meeting hanging out with the creative people.
But you know, his business at the end of the
day is retail and retail is detailed, so he'll go
into the stores and then he'll talk to the sales assistant,
and then he'll you know, send emails or text to
(08:17):
his managers telling him what he thinks and how this
bag maybe should be this category should be exhibited somewhere else.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Perhaps unsurprisingly then, Arnaud also has a reputation for being
a bit of a micromanager. He's concerned with details as
specific as the brand of shoes that sales associates wear
in his stores. Obviously he wants them to wear LVMH
brands head to toe. He's involved in the day to
day in a way Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos aren't anymore,
(08:45):
but the companies they started well. Asked Bradstone if he
caught glimpses of that fastidiousness when he talked to Arnaut,
And if Arnault is involved in the nitty gritty on
the creative side of the business, is he telling Grammy
winner Pharrell Williams, who's now one of the creative directors
at Louis Viton, what he should and shouldn't do.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
David, I don't get the impression that there is any
aspect of the business that mister Arna is not involved
in Look. Does he go and micromanage the actual sort
of camouflage design on the men'swear jacket that Louis Viton.
Probably not, but he is certainly involved in the hiring
of the fashion the creative directors, and the ambassadors at
(09:26):
every house Look. I think he looks at everything, not
just the creative side, but the executives and how each
business is run and how it's doing on a daily
and weekly basis.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Given our no's relentless focus on image and reputation, I
wanted to understand from Angelina how he's navigating another hot
button issue at his companies, recent reporting of unsafe and
illegal labor practices in the factories that make LVMH goods.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
Sometimes you do your best to de trait' sability tracking
all these labor conditions, but sometimes when it's too removed. Yeah,
their struggle in even LVMH has struggle.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
And recent Bloomberg reporting reporting we featured on this podcast
found serious problems in LVMH owned Lororo Piana's supply chain,
including paltry compensation for indigenous workers in Peru who shear
the wool used in some of the world's most expensive sweaters.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Their response was like, we'll look into it and we'll
make sure to fix what we can fix.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
At the time of Bloomberg's reporting, Loro Piana also stressed
their economic support for the local community. Our nose degree
of involvement in his company raises another question, what happens
when he's no longer at the helm. His age now
seventy five has outside observers looking for clues about what
LVMH's future could look like. He recently raised the CEO
(10:45):
retirement age at the company from seventy five to eighty
and Warren Buffett wrote to him after that to tell
our No, he made a mistake setting that new limit.
So Low Buffett, who is ninety three, still runs Berkshire Hathaway.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
The big question is who will succeed him when he's
no longer around, and obviously some of the candidates include
his five children, who were all work inside LVMATS.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
And they're all seen as potential heirs or heiress's apparent
are No's eldest daughter is the CEO of Christian Dior Couture.
Is eldest son is an executive at LVMH. Another son
is the number two at Tiffany and His two youngest
sons are involved in the company's watch business, which Brad
says is an area where LVMH might make more acquisitions.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
He has brought more kind of thinking and precision to
succession than I've seen almost anywhere. Right, and the way
in which they have designed the holding companies, the way
in which the five kids, who all have equal shares
of one of the holding companies, have to agree for
a period of many decades. None of them can withdraw
from the business. They can't unilaterally pass any major strategic decisions.
(11:56):
And so he's thought not just about succession, but about
preserving the peace among his heirs, and that is where
so many other family owned companies have suffered. So he's
really thought about how to avoid the famous pitfalls. This
is not the roy family for now.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Though Arnot says he has no plans to retire, He'll
keep visiting stores every Saturday as long as he can.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
This is an ambition fueled multi decade spree to develop
an unassailable and generations long empire in luxury. I think
like this guy. Even though people talk about retirement, they
talk about succession. He is still an empire building mode.
And I don't think he will stop until he has to.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
This is the Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm David Gura.
Today's episode is produced by Thomas Leu. It was edited
by Aaron Edwards. It was fact checked by Arafat Gelosso
Perry and Adriana Tapia. It was mixed by Blake Maples.
Kim Giittleson and Naomi Shaven are our senior producer. Old
Beemster Borr is our executive producer. Sage Bauman is Bloomberg's
(13:04):
head of podcasts. Thanks so much for listening. Please follow
and review The Big Take wherever you get your podcasts.
It helps new listeners find the show. We'll be back
tomorrow
Hosts And Creators
Sarah Holder
Saleha Mohsin
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.