May 5, 2025 • 16 mins
Warren Buffett shocked shareholders when he announced he’d be stepping down as CEO of Berkshire Hathaway. The 94-year-old business giant had been running the behemoth company for more than 50 years, and his investment decisions have earned him the nickname the “Oracle of Omaha.”
On today’s Big Take podcast, Bloomberg senior markets editor and Opinion columnist John Authers unpacks how Warren Buffett changed investing, what it would take for successors to fill his shoes and whether Berkshire Hathaway is headed for a break-up.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Over the weekend, Berkshire
Hathaway held its annual shareholder meeting in Omaha, Nebraska. It's
famous in investor circles, nicknamed the Woodstock for capitalists. Every year,
at that meeting, the company's CEO, Warren Buffett, takes hours
(00:25):
of questions from shareholders and dispense's investment wisdom. That's earned
him international renown.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And one of the great benefits you get from owing
as much as one share of Berkshire is that you
get the right to go to his annual meeting and
ask him questions.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That's Bloomberg Senior Markets editor and opinion columnist John Authors.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So Warren Buffet himself still has I think more than
a third of Berkshire Hathaway, but the sheer number of
people who have bought just one share in Berkshire so
that they can go along to de Seeman Omahi's is
very impressive.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But this year Buffett shocked everyone by announcing he'd be
stepping down as CEO and naming a vice chairman at
the company, Greg Abel, as his successor.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
The diamonds arrive were.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Gregg should become the chief executive officer of the company
earlier in.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, you can tell that I wasn't expecting it because
I actually I had a high school reunion this weekend,
and this is one of the few weekends I took
off completely.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
John says that even though the timing of Buffett's announcement
was a surprise, the decision wasn't entirely unexpected. At ninety
four years old, Buffett is the longest running CEO in
the S and P. Five hundred, and he's been planning
for Berkshire's future without him for years.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You do have a very serious problem with Berkshire, which
is how do you replace Warren Buffett. There is an
immense amount of value perceived in his continuing to be
the CEO, so he has been preoccupied for quite a
while with working at how this beast is going to continue.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
The move marks the end of an era for Buffett
and the beginning of another for Berkshire Hathaway, which has
grown into a one point two trillion dollar company. I'm
Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from Bloomberg
News today. On the show, how Warren Buffett changed Investing,
What it would take for successors to fill his shoes?
(02:38):
And whether Berkshire Hathaway is headed for a breakup. John, First,
the burning question, why did Warren Buffett choose to step
down now after over fifty years as the CEO of
Berkshire Hathaway.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I can only speculate I happen't to his doctor. I
haven't talked to him. People with emotional intelligence know that
they're not as good as they used to be, and
they should be standing down. And I assume it's as
simple as that. He has been working on succession for
quite a long time. So he's produced a vehicle that
is now overwhelmingly strong at generating cash, and all it
(03:22):
needs is good patient ownership and it should continue to
be a very nice investment for somebody. And he's confident
in greg Abel and the various other people he's found
around him that he's got people who have what he
sees is what's necessary, the emotional intelligence to stay calm
and stay within their boundaries. So I don't think there's
(03:44):
anything ulterior other than a man in his nineties recognizes
that he doesn't have his curveball and it's time to
step back.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, I want to talk about Buffett's legacy, you know,
with a figure as historic as Buffett. I know there's
a lot to cover, but if you had to start
the story of Warren Buffett's rise to become the so
called Oracle of Omaha, where would you start it.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
He went to Columbia Business School, specially so that he
could go to attend the class in value investing run
by Benjamin Graham, who wrote The Intelligence Investor and Security Analysis,
basically the father of value investing, and he published in
the nineteen thirties right at the bottom of the depression.
(04:30):
Came up with these concepts for how the market might
have gone down a lot, but if you use these metrics,
you can find the companies that are actually too cheap
that even if everything goes wrong, you're still going to
be fine. I think the phrase he used was cigar,
but people will finish their cigar and put it down,
when in fact there was still several good puffs of
(04:51):
that cigar to be had. Buffett was fascinated by this,
worked out that this was a great way to make money,
and went to Columbia to learn at the feet of
the master. And then I think the next thing you
have to add to that is that he worked out
how to adapt the value investing philosophy for when there
(05:15):
aren't lots of cigar butts lying around on the floor.
So the concept he was fascinated in was a franchise
value of companies that really have a great shot at
keeping earning more to an extent that they're undervalued. So
it wasn't just a question of buying if he companies
(05:36):
that are way too cheap. He expanded it, and then
I guess the other thing you have to get to
is that he really could be a comedian. He really
could be an opportunist, particularly in the Crisis of eight,
but it's happened again since then. He began to grasp
that he was so big. But he did have this
(05:59):
huge advantage. He just had so much cash that he
was such a safe, safe investment, so he could afford
to lend it to people when others couldn't.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
He could afford to be an opportunist.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yes, he could afford to be an opportunist. And he'd
worked out, this is my advantage at this moment. What
can I do that others.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Can't, and that value investing approach. I'm curious how that
shaped Berkshire Hathaway's success. What are some of Buffett's biggest
most successful investments.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Coca Cola would be one of the classic examples of Gillette.
What he looks for are companies with what he calls
a wide economic moat, which you could very much argue
is a folksy populist way of saying he's looking for
really horrible, well entrenched monopolists. In the case of Coca Cola,
(06:54):
pepsi does exist. Coca Cola is a brand like virtually
no other. If you continue to be able to sell
carbonated water with a little bit of this, a little
bit of this syrup in it for a very big
markup because it's got Coca Cola on it on the label,
(07:15):
you are going to make money, which, of course Coca
Cola really did.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
John, you mentioned Buffett's folksiness. He isn't like a standard
Wall Street investor type. How has that folksiness helped shape
Buffett's image over the years.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I think it's made him nicely immune to a lot
of the criticism that somebody that rich could normally expect
to get. I mean, if you compare him to Elon Musk, charm,
self deprecation and folksiness definitely works much better at deflecting
the kind of criticisms that come of great wealth than
(07:52):
the approaches that Elon Musk has taken. I think he
genuinely even though he's obvious a capitalist who is extremely
motivated to make money. I think his basic democratic populist
politics are genuine. I can remember many years ago when
Hillary Clinton was running for Senator for the first time.
(08:14):
He showed up to endorse her on a platform and
he pointed out that he was very under taxed and
that he paid a lower tax rate than his loyal
secretary does. And you could argue, well, it's not as
though he spent a lot of time really working hard
in the political trenches to correct that, but he was
(08:36):
conscious of.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
It, right, So his sort of folksiness is democratic populism
has helped shield him from some criticism, but he's not
immune from criticism. What are the biggest critiques of Buffett's
approach and his tactics.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think the biggest criticism to be made of him
does come from the notion of being a monopolist. Many
of the entrepreneurs we think of are at least trying
to do new things, innovate, expand Warren Buffett doesn't do
that he spots businesses that are well run and that
(09:11):
have an inbuilt competitive advantage and buys them and holds
on and make sure they keep their competitive advantage and
keep making money. So he doesn't found companies, and he
doesn't help disrupt industries that might need disruption. By providing
(09:32):
so much capital to spotting the winners and sending money
in the direction of monopolists, he is contributing towards capitalism
not spreading its fruits as widely as it shoulds are
not creating as diverse and vibrant an economy as it should.
He's worked out how to really make money using the
(09:54):
rules of the game of capitalism as it works, and
he's done it so successfully that in many ways it's
quite embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Warren Buffett's personality and investing philosophy have made Berkshire Hathaway
one of the most successful firms in the world, but
Buffett's influence extends far beyond the performance of his company.
We talk about the extent of that influence and the
possible future for Berkshire after the break. Beyond his legendary
(10:30):
investment acumen, Warren Buffett is one of the most well
known financial figures in the world. He has vast personal wealth,
he's a reliable media presence, and he has political heft.
He's someone people often turned to to help process the
ups and downs of the economy, and he's stepping aside
at a moment of economic uncertainty. So I asked Bloomberg's
(10:52):
John Authors, can Warren Buffett be replaced?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
No, I'm not sure we can. I mean, there are
other people who have something akin to his status in
different ways, the most obvious example being Jamie Diamond, who
has had mistakes in his career, but on balance has
been a startlingly successful banker for a very long time.
(11:17):
Bill Lackman, who I think does regard himself or used
to regard himself as a value investor, and you can
see his vehicle as being something akin to what Berkshire
Hathaway has been. But if you looked at all the
other investors that have ever just bought stocks long so
every other guy who's tried to do what Warren Buffett
(11:39):
has done in history, you would look at those and
then say if somebody, if you then got told there's
also this other guy who's done this, you would say, no,
there isn't that's impossible. What Buffett did at Berkshire is
completely off the charts, and nobody else is going to
do that. I don't think.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right impossible as it might seem irreplaceable. As it may
seem to be. He has chosen a successor, Greg Abel,
the former CEO of Berkshire Hathaway Energy, to replace him
as CEO. Tell us about the Berkshire that Able is
inheriting at this moment and the challenges and opportunities he
has right now.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Well, basically, he's inheriting an enormous conglomerate with a lot
of cash on the side. It's a conglomerate that is
quite US centric. He has a company that is pretty
heavily based in insurance. That's the business that Buffett particularly
felt that he understood that does have pretty significant exposure
(12:38):
to industry. He does have this massive cash pile, but
I think it probably does become more of an industrial
behemoth rather than the great investment vehicle of Warren Buffett.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Does a breakup of Berkshire Hathaway seem likelier under able, You.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Would think so, because it no longer has the Warren
Buffett connection that people aren't going to rush out to
buy it just because it's Warren Buffett. It's possible that
it's in fact going to continue making money for a
very long time because he has found a bunch of
(13:19):
companies that are very well supported, that he's got good
managers with very strong, reliable profits. But yes, you'd still
have to think that taking it apart as as a
vehicle becomes more likely now now that the great man
is moving on.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Is there a sense that Able will continue to sort
of toe the line set by Buffett, or that he'll
shake things up.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I would imagine he would tow the line. He has
an investor body that passionately believes in the way Warren
Buffett does it and will not be happy with him
if he really tries to change things. And Warren Buffett
has chosen him because he knows that he's going to
do the right thing. I mean, I suppose Buffett, for
everything else, is ultimately an opportunist, a disciplined one, and
(14:09):
I think he's appointed a successor who he sees as
a kindred spirit, a disciplined opportunist.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
John We've been talking a lot about Buffett's legacy, but
obviously this isn't an obituary. He's still very much around,
He's still very much a part of the company. He's
staying on as chairman. What do we expect Buffett's role
to continue to be in the company.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I imagine he's going to If he thinks he's spotted
a great investment idea, he's going to point it out.
I imagine he's probably very happy to leave day to
day running decisions to other people, because the man's ninety
four could do with less wear and tear. If we
have another twenty thirty percent market break later this year,
(14:55):
and plenty of people think that's possible, I suspect he's yeah.
He he's got his eye on various franchises he thinks
might become a compelling buy. He's probably going to do
something about it if that happens, If we get a
compelling opportunity. I can easily imagine Warren Buffett's in six
(15:15):
months time, when the fear about Terrence has really got
people scared, pouncing here working out that this is the
time to pounce, and by buying something we haven't thought
of like, I can easily imagine.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That still the oracle after all. This is the big
take from Bloomberg News I'm Sarah Holder. This episode was
produced by Julia Press with support from Alex Tie. It
was edited by Tracy Samuelson, Patty Hirsch, and Kat Shaglinsky.
It was fact checked by David Fox and mixed and
(15:48):
sound designed by Alex Suguia. Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven.
Our senior editor is Elizabeth Conso. Our deputy executive producer
is Julia Weaver. Our executive producer is Nicole Beamsterboor Sage
Bauman is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. If you liked this episode,
make sure to subscribe and review The Big Take wherever
you listen to podcasts. It helps people find the show.
(16:10):
Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow
Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Over the weekend, Berkshire
Hathaway held its annual shareholder meeting in Omaha, Nebraska. It's
famous in investor circles, nicknamed the Woodstock for capitalists. Every year,
at that meeting, the company's CEO, Warren Buffett, takes hours
(00:25):
of questions from shareholders and dispense's investment wisdom. That's earned
him international renown.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
And one of the great benefits you get from owing
as much as one share of Berkshire is that you
get the right to go to his annual meeting and
ask him questions.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
That's Bloomberg Senior Markets editor and opinion columnist John Authors.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So Warren Buffet himself still has I think more than
a third of Berkshire Hathaway, but the sheer number of
people who have bought just one share in Berkshire so
that they can go along to de Seeman Omahi's is
very impressive.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But this year Buffett shocked everyone by announcing he'd be
stepping down as CEO and naming a vice chairman at
the company, Greg Abel, as his successor.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
The diamonds arrive were.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
Gregg should become the chief executive officer of the company
earlier in.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well, you can tell that I wasn't expecting it because
I actually I had a high school reunion this weekend,
and this is one of the few weekends I took
off completely.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
John says that even though the timing of Buffett's announcement
was a surprise, the decision wasn't entirely unexpected. At ninety
four years old, Buffett is the longest running CEO in
the S and P. Five hundred, and he's been planning
for Berkshire's future without him for years.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
You do have a very serious problem with Berkshire, which
is how do you replace Warren Buffett. There is an
immense amount of value perceived in his continuing to be
the CEO, so he has been preoccupied for quite a
while with working at how this beast is going to continue.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
The move marks the end of an era for Buffett
and the beginning of another for Berkshire Hathaway, which has
grown into a one point two trillion dollar company. I'm
Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from Bloomberg
News today. On the show, how Warren Buffett changed Investing,
What it would take for successors to fill his shoes?
(02:38):
And whether Berkshire Hathaway is headed for a breakup. John, First,
the burning question, why did Warren Buffett choose to step
down now after over fifty years as the CEO of
Berkshire Hathaway.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I can only speculate I happen't to his doctor. I
haven't talked to him. People with emotional intelligence know that
they're not as good as they used to be, and
they should be standing down. And I assume it's as
simple as that. He has been working on succession for
quite a long time. So he's produced a vehicle that
is now overwhelmingly strong at generating cash, and all it
(03:22):
needs is good patient ownership and it should continue to
be a very nice investment for somebody. And he's confident
in greg Abel and the various other people he's found
around him that he's got people who have what he
sees is what's necessary, the emotional intelligence to stay calm
and stay within their boundaries. So I don't think there's
(03:44):
anything ulterior other than a man in his nineties recognizes
that he doesn't have his curveball and it's time to
step back.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Well, I want to talk about Buffett's legacy, you know,
with a figure as historic as Buffett. I know there's
a lot to cover, but if you had to start
the story of Warren Buffett's rise to become the so
called Oracle of Omaha, where would you start it.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
He went to Columbia Business School, specially so that he
could go to attend the class in value investing run
by Benjamin Graham, who wrote The Intelligence Investor and Security Analysis,
basically the father of value investing, and he published in
the nineteen thirties right at the bottom of the depression.
(04:30):
Came up with these concepts for how the market might
have gone down a lot, but if you use these metrics,
you can find the companies that are actually too cheap
that even if everything goes wrong, you're still going to
be fine. I think the phrase he used was cigar,
but people will finish their cigar and put it down,
when in fact there was still several good puffs of
(04:51):
that cigar to be had. Buffett was fascinated by this,
worked out that this was a great way to make money,
and went to Columbia to learn at the feet of
the master. And then I think the next thing you
have to add to that is that he worked out
how to adapt the value investing philosophy for when there
(05:15):
aren't lots of cigar butts lying around on the floor.
So the concept he was fascinated in was a franchise
value of companies that really have a great shot at
keeping earning more to an extent that they're undervalued. So
it wasn't just a question of buying if he companies
(05:36):
that are way too cheap. He expanded it, and then
I guess the other thing you have to get to
is that he really could be a comedian. He really
could be an opportunist, particularly in the Crisis of eight,
but it's happened again since then. He began to grasp
that he was so big. But he did have this
(05:59):
huge advantage. He just had so much cash that he
was such a safe, safe investment, so he could afford
to lend it to people when others couldn't.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
He could afford to be an opportunist.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yes, he could afford to be an opportunist. And he'd
worked out, this is my advantage at this moment. What
can I do that others.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Can't, and that value investing approach. I'm curious how that
shaped Berkshire Hathaway's success. What are some of Buffett's biggest
most successful investments.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Coca Cola would be one of the classic examples of Gillette.
What he looks for are companies with what he calls
a wide economic moat, which you could very much argue
is a folksy populist way of saying he's looking for
really horrible, well entrenched monopolists. In the case of Coca Cola,
(06:54):
pepsi does exist. Coca Cola is a brand like virtually
no other. If you continue to be able to sell
carbonated water with a little bit of this, a little
bit of this syrup in it for a very big
markup because it's got Coca Cola on it on the label,
(07:15):
you are going to make money, which, of course Coca
Cola really did.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
John, you mentioned Buffett's folksiness. He isn't like a standard
Wall Street investor type. How has that folksiness helped shape
Buffett's image over the years.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I think it's made him nicely immune to a lot
of the criticism that somebody that rich could normally expect
to get. I mean, if you compare him to Elon Musk, charm,
self deprecation and folksiness definitely works much better at deflecting
the kind of criticisms that come of great wealth than
(07:52):
the approaches that Elon Musk has taken. I think he
genuinely even though he's obvious a capitalist who is extremely
motivated to make money. I think his basic democratic populist
politics are genuine. I can remember many years ago when
Hillary Clinton was running for Senator for the first time.
(08:14):
He showed up to endorse her on a platform and
he pointed out that he was very under taxed and
that he paid a lower tax rate than his loyal
secretary does. And you could argue, well, it's not as
though he spent a lot of time really working hard
in the political trenches to correct that, but he was
(08:36):
conscious of.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
It, right, So his sort of folksiness is democratic populism
has helped shield him from some criticism, but he's not
immune from criticism. What are the biggest critiques of Buffett's
approach and his tactics.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think the biggest criticism to be made of him
does come from the notion of being a monopolist. Many
of the entrepreneurs we think of are at least trying
to do new things, innovate, expand Warren Buffett doesn't do
that he spots businesses that are well run and that
(09:11):
have an inbuilt competitive advantage and buys them and holds
on and make sure they keep their competitive advantage and
keep making money. So he doesn't found companies, and he
doesn't help disrupt industries that might need disruption. By providing
(09:32):
so much capital to spotting the winners and sending money
in the direction of monopolists, he is contributing towards capitalism
not spreading its fruits as widely as it shoulds are
not creating as diverse and vibrant an economy as it should.
He's worked out how to really make money using the
(09:54):
rules of the game of capitalism as it works, and
he's done it so successfully that in many ways it's
quite embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Warren Buffett's personality and investing philosophy have made Berkshire Hathaway
one of the most successful firms in the world, but
Buffett's influence extends far beyond the performance of his company.
We talk about the extent of that influence and the
possible future for Berkshire after the break. Beyond his legendary
(10:30):
investment acumen, Warren Buffett is one of the most well
known financial figures in the world. He has vast personal wealth,
he's a reliable media presence, and he has political heft.
He's someone people often turned to to help process the
ups and downs of the economy, and he's stepping aside
at a moment of economic uncertainty. So I asked Bloomberg's
(10:52):
John Authors, can Warren Buffett be replaced?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
No, I'm not sure we can. I mean, there are
other people who have something akin to his status in
different ways, the most obvious example being Jamie Diamond, who
has had mistakes in his career, but on balance has
been a startlingly successful banker for a very long time.
(11:17):
Bill Lackman, who I think does regard himself or used
to regard himself as a value investor, and you can
see his vehicle as being something akin to what Berkshire
Hathaway has been. But if you looked at all the
other investors that have ever just bought stocks long so
every other guy who's tried to do what Warren Buffett
(11:39):
has done in history, you would look at those and
then say if somebody, if you then got told there's
also this other guy who's done this, you would say, no,
there isn't that's impossible. What Buffett did at Berkshire is
completely off the charts, and nobody else is going to
do that. I don't think.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Right impossible as it might seem irreplaceable. As it may
seem to be. He has chosen a successor, Greg Abel,
the former CEO of Berkshire Hathaway Energy, to replace him
as CEO. Tell us about the Berkshire that Able is
inheriting at this moment and the challenges and opportunities he
has right now.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Well, basically, he's inheriting an enormous conglomerate with a lot
of cash on the side. It's a conglomerate that is
quite US centric. He has a company that is pretty
heavily based in insurance. That's the business that Buffett particularly
felt that he understood that does have pretty significant exposure
(12:38):
to industry. He does have this massive cash pile, but
I think it probably does become more of an industrial
behemoth rather than the great investment vehicle of Warren Buffett.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
Does a breakup of Berkshire Hathaway seem likelier under able, You.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Would think so, because it no longer has the Warren
Buffett connection that people aren't going to rush out to
buy it just because it's Warren Buffett. It's possible that
it's in fact going to continue making money for a
very long time because he has found a bunch of
(13:19):
companies that are very well supported, that he's got good
managers with very strong, reliable profits. But yes, you'd still
have to think that taking it apart as as a
vehicle becomes more likely now now that the great man
is moving on.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Is there a sense that Able will continue to sort
of toe the line set by Buffett, or that he'll
shake things up.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
I would imagine he would tow the line. He has
an investor body that passionately believes in the way Warren
Buffett does it and will not be happy with him
if he really tries to change things. And Warren Buffett
has chosen him because he knows that he's going to
do the right thing. I mean, I suppose Buffett, for
everything else, is ultimately an opportunist, a disciplined one, and
(14:09):
I think he's appointed a successor who he sees as
a kindred spirit, a disciplined opportunist.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
John We've been talking a lot about Buffett's legacy, but
obviously this isn't an obituary. He's still very much around,
He's still very much a part of the company. He's
staying on as chairman. What do we expect Buffett's role
to continue to be in the company.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
I imagine he's going to If he thinks he's spotted
a great investment idea, he's going to point it out.
I imagine he's probably very happy to leave day to
day running decisions to other people, because the man's ninety
four could do with less wear and tear. If we
have another twenty thirty percent market break later this year,
(14:55):
and plenty of people think that's possible, I suspect he's yeah.
He he's got his eye on various franchises he thinks
might become a compelling buy. He's probably going to do
something about it if that happens, If we get a
compelling opportunity. I can easily imagine Warren Buffett's in six
(15:15):
months time, when the fear about Terrence has really got
people scared, pouncing here working out that this is the
time to pounce, and by buying something we haven't thought
of like, I can easily imagine.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That still the oracle after all. This is the big
take from Bloomberg News I'm Sarah Holder. This episode was
produced by Julia Press with support from Alex Tie. It
was edited by Tracy Samuelson, Patty Hirsch, and Kat Shaglinsky.
It was fact checked by David Fox and mixed and
(15:48):
sound designed by Alex Suguia. Our senior producer is Naomi Shaven.
Our senior editor is Elizabeth Conso. Our deputy executive producer
is Julia Weaver. Our executive producer is Nicole Beamsterboor Sage
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