June 9, 2025 • 39 mins
Watch Carol and Tim LIVE every day on YouTube: http://bit.ly/3vTiACF.
The Trump administration is sending about 700 active duty Marines to reinforce the National Guard in response to protests in Los Angeles, a person familiar with the matter said, continuing an escalation that California officials have called unwarranted.
A Defense Department official said the Marines, based at the Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center in Twentynine Palms, California, were on the move after getting notice over the weekend. CNN reported the plans earlier Monday.
Sending active-duty Marines marks an escalation in force from President Donald Trump in response to the protests. California Governor Gavin Newsom had earlier criticized Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth for saying Marines could be deployed, calling the threat “deranged behavior.”
US law generally bars the use of the active-duty U.S. military — the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines — from carrying out domestic law enforcement. The law doesn’t apply to state-controlled National Guard forces. On Sunday, Trump signed an order directing the US Northern Command to assume control of the National Guard and dispatch at least 2,000 soldiers to the area.
Today's show features:
- Bloomberg News National Team Managing Editor Sarah McGregor on rising social unrest in Los Angeles
- Dexter Tiff Roberts, Professor of Chinese Politics and Modern Chinese History at the University of Montana on US-China relations and the Chinese position on trade
- Bloomberg Managing Editor for Global Consumer Tech Mark Gurman on his takeaways from the start of Apple’s Worldwide Developers Conference
- Wendy Barnes, President and CEO of GoodRx on headwinds facing the healthcare and pharmaceuticals industries
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Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine
that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies,
and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business finance
and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week
Daily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Los Angeles entered its fourth day of unrest sparked by
immigration raids, with President Trump suggesting that Gavin Newsom should
be arrested for his response, and the governor suing the
administration for deploying National Guard troops to the city. Separately,
the Pentagon is mobilizing five hundred active duty Marines to
help reinforce the National Guard in response to protests in
(00:53):
Los Angeles. Just according to a person familiar with the matter.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
All right, so let's get to it with Sarah McGregor.
She is with USh. She's Bloomberg News National Team Managing
editor based in Los Angeles, and she joins us from
the LA Bureau. Sarah, you know we've talked with you
before different moments of crisis in and around the LA area.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Just talked to us.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
First of all, a little perspective from you and this
city and what you.
Speaker 6 (01:17):
Have seen over the last few days.
Speaker 7 (01:20):
Absolutely. I think the last time we spoke it was
during the LA wildfires, when the California National Guard we're
here to protect people, and of course now we're seeing
them in the city at the order of Trump, against
the wishes of Newsome, trying to quell demonstrations that are
across the city. And just to put into context today,
over the weekend, you know, we did see some violence,
some clashes with the police, more than thirty people arrested
(01:42):
at those but you know, it's quite isolated pockets downtown LA,
just areas south of the city. This is in response
to immigration rates. Today. What we're seeing are largely peaceful protests.
So far, there's a lot of large gathering in downtown
LA but so far we aren't seeing that sort of
violence that picked up later in the day yesterday. So,
(02:03):
you know, just to put that into perspective. As the
Marines are now being sent actually we are reporting it's
seven hundred now we've gotten more information that it's now
seven hundred and so apparently they're on their way to
LA and that definitely sets the stage for tensions to rise.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
You know, I think people outside of the Los Angeles area,
and perhaps in Los Angeles, they see images of unrest
in LA and if they're of a certain age, maybe
they think of nineteen ninety two and what we saw
in the wake of the video of Rodney King being
beaten and the riots that happened in April and May
(02:38):
of that year. Can you contextualize that and just put
this into historical context of what the city has seen.
Speaker 7 (02:47):
I don't want to downplay anything, because I do know,
you know, police officers have been hurt, and they're you know,
the security forces have definitely had to respond, and they've
thrown bricks. You know, different charges have been laid, including
attempt at murder for throwing them alto So there's definitely
some serious, serious counts here. But ultimately, you know, the
city is widely calm, and I think it's just sort
(03:08):
of the comparable now of sending in the National Guard,
now sending in Marines that really it doesn't seem to
be a match in terms of and that's what the
Trump the News administration would say. It doesn't really seem
to be a match in terms of what the needs
are for the security forces. So that's not to say
that things could escalate, But I think the worry from Newsom,
from Marbez is that it's actually by sending in the
(03:28):
big guns that things will actually attentions will arise and
people will lose their cool, and so I think they're
more worried that the show of force will actually make
the situation even worse.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
You mentioned today, Sarah that we're seeing some peaceful protests.
I'm just curious, though, have the protests grown in numbers.
Speaker 7 (03:48):
It is really hard to tell because they are spread out.
It does seem in sort of similar numbers from day
to day in terms of protesters. Today, we're actually seeing
a large number of people in downtown LA protesting a
labor leader, a major labor leader, who has been detained.
He's been charged actually now with obstructing the pathway of
a federal vehicle and so he's going to face charges
on that, and some local leaders like Maxine Waters, some
(04:11):
Democratic leaders Adam Schiff, have called for his release, have
asked to enter the detention center where he's being held,
and they were denied. So I think that's raising some
tensions on a whole other level of just a bit
of an outcry about this labor leader being detained, Sir.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
When we last checked in with you regularly, it was
during the devastating wildfires in and around the Los Angeles area.
At that time, Mayor Karen Bass was getting a lot
of criticism from folks about the city's response to the fires.
How would you characterize the role that she's taken during
these during this latest episode that we're speaking to you about,
(04:47):
what has she been doing?
Speaker 7 (04:50):
I think because you know, the exchange, especially today and
social media, has largely been between Newsom and Trump. Newsom's
you know, just sent a tweet out, for instance, with
a picture of some of the National Guards sleeping on
the floor, saying Trump sent these people here and now
they have no place to rest, they have no food.
You know, it's sort of back and forth between Trump
and Newsome. I think that's sort of overshadowed. I think
(05:11):
the efforts locally on the ground of what folks are doing,
at least from a national perspective. So you know, Karen
Bess has been up front, she's been holding press conferences.
You know, there hasn't been a criticism I think about
the LAPG, the LA Police Force and how they've been
handling the situation at large outside of Trump and his administration.
So I think here at home, there isn't a lot
(05:34):
of analysis yet, I suppose of how it's being handled
at a local level, but it does seem like it's
you know, calm heads, Sarah.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
I am also curious about kind of the mood and
the view point of most Los Angelinos, if you will.
It's a diverse city, Folks from many walks of life
in Los Angeles, So I'm just curious what is the
public's view, if there's a general view when it comes
to immigration right now.
Speaker 7 (06:03):
Well, you know, all of these these protested stem from
some raids on Friday and the public seeing you know,
seeing the ICE folks mobilizing around home depots or the
fashion district in LA to capture folks, and so that
anger is palpable. That's where this all stemmed from. You know,
we have been receiving la USD. The school district has
had a press conference today, you know, telling people they're
(06:25):
not going to cooperate with ICE in terms of you know,
handing over anyone or giving names and numbers of you know,
parents in the school district. They're going to protect the kids.
So I do think it sort of raises that awareness
in a way. I think there have been isolated raids
in LA, but we haven't really felt the brunt of
this deportation campaigned by Trump, and I think as they've
scaled things up to try and reach numbers, to try
(06:47):
and reach their three thousand and day minimum of arrests,
we started to see LA be ground zero for that.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, it's been remarkable to see play out over the
last four days. Governor Cuomo, who's running for mayor of
New York City, was on Bloomberg Surveyllance a little earlier, Sarah,
and he made the point that you might actually see
He made the point that what you see in Los
Angeles you could see in New York City next. And
I'm just wondering how you view a comment such as
that with regard to what you've seen the federal government
(07:16):
and what we've reported the federal government do in Los Angeles.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Absolutely, I mean we are watching, out of course, to
see if sort of protests breakout in other cities and
solidarity of what's happening in LA. We saw some protests
in San Francisco, for example, yesterday where sixty people were arrested.
So it is possible, especially in some of these blue
states where they have sanctuary city policies that the Trump
administration has been very critical of.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
There.
Speaker 7 (07:40):
You know, it is something to watch out for whether
similar things will will unfold in these cities.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
All right, we're going to leave it on that note. Listen, Sarah,
thanks so much for always keeping us up to date.
Sarah McGregor. She is our Bloomberg News National Team managing editor.
She's based in Los Angeles and she's been joining us
from our LA bureau.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
You're listening to the Blue Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast.
Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five eas
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Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, trade talk between the US and China stretched on
in London. The US signaled a willingness to remove restrictions
on some tech ex sports in exchange for assurances that
China is easing limits on rare earth shipments. The meeting
began just after one pm local time. It's expected to
extend into the UK evening. It may restart on Tuesday,
Caro if necessary. We got a great voice on this.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
We do indeed back with us, Dexter Tiff Roberts. He's
non resident Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council's Global China Hub.
He's also author of Trade War, a weekly newsletter on
China's economy. He's also professor of Chinese politics at the
University of Montana. He's former Bloomberg BusinessWeek China bureau chief.
He lived in Beijing for two decades covering it all
for Business Week, and he's author of the twenty twenty book.
(08:56):
We've talked to him about this the myth of Chinese capitalism,
the worker, the fact, and the future of the world. Sorry,
we're out of time interview, but this is why you
want to talk to him about China.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
He joins us from Mizzola, Montana.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Tip. Good to have you back with us.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah, these negotiations between the US and China, what for
you is what you think we should all have on
our radar here?
Speaker 8 (09:23):
Well, it's all from the US perspective. As we know,
it's all about rare earth exports. We we've got ourselves
in a situation over a number of years where China
absolutely dominates the production and the processing of these crucial,
crucial rare earths that you know, we need for every
(09:45):
almost everything you can, you know, you name it, we
need it for. We need rare earth smartphones, uh, you know,
electric vehicles, robot x miss missile systems. You know, defense
need to as well.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Tiff if that's the case, and we spoke to Graceland
Baskren at csis a little earlier in our program. She
joined us from South Africa and we talked specifically about rareers,
but in the context of trade negotiations and who actually
has the leverage since for the US this is all
about rare earths, does that mean that China has the
upper hand in your view?
Speaker 8 (10:21):
Well, I actually do think China has a little bit
more leverage than the US, but it's close. We had
the numbers earlier this week. Chinese exports disappointed. You know,
we saw this dramatic I think it was thirty four
and a half percent drop in exports to the US.
You know, they've been doing a little bit better because
(10:42):
they've been selling a lot to Southeast Asia, the EU,
and Africa, but not well enough.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
So China. It's not like China's not hurting.
Speaker 8 (10:50):
But I do think on the US side, there's these
real fears about inflation if the trade war goes on.
We saw the relatively weak job report, and we got
something called the midterm elections coming up, and China, as
we know, doesn't have any mid term elections ahead.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Well, I love that you went there, and I was
going to ask you, you know, TIV, what about you know,
what is it about the grand kind of Chinese experiment
and mission that has happened under President Xi? As you said,
there's no midterms. He's pretty well entrenched and ensconced in
his position. But what is it about his mission, his
great experiment and you know kind of goal in creating
(11:33):
the Chinese economy that we look at today?
Speaker 5 (11:35):
What about it works?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
What doesn't?
Speaker 8 (11:40):
Well, first of all, I would just say that grand
goal it's clear She jene Ping has and has been
you know, vocalized and publicized, often more often in Chinese
than English. But they're very clear that they want China
to play a dominant role in global supply chains, as
they already do, but they want to they want to
(12:00):
strengthen that at the high end, and they want to
dominate advanced technology. So, first of all, that grand goal
that we see out of Beijing, unfortunately, is in direct
conflict with what we would like to see in the US.
So I guess I just say at the outset, you know,
we may get some agreements. I think we will out
(12:20):
of London, but I'm really skeptical, skeptical that they're going to.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Last long term. For that reason, there's a real there's a.
Speaker 8 (12:29):
Real difference of opinions, if you will, about who's going
to going to lead in advance deck and supply chains globally.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Tiff, this is almost an impossible question for any single
person to answer, but I think you can probably give
as good of a view into this as anybody else.
For the last few months, Carol and I've been trying
to figure out what exactly is happening on the ground
when it comes to the Chinese economy, to what extent
is the Chinese economy ahead of the US when it
comes to electric vehicles, when it comes to robotics, when
it comes to AI. Because of a past few years,
(13:00):
what we've learned is that there's yes been a property crisis,
the consumer is under pressure, there's a debt crisis certainly
as well. We've reported on extensively. So how would you
characterize the Chinese consumer, the Chinese economy and where the
strengths and weaknesses are right now.
Speaker 8 (13:17):
Well, there's a real you've just hit hit upon it, Tim,
there's this real dichotomy. We have seen tremendous success in
areas like electric vehicles. There's no question now that they
are doing far better than we are and leading the
world in terms of affordable and very good electric vehicles.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
And I saw that last.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
Year when I wrote it in some as well when
I was in China, we saw, you know, obviously areas
like smartphones. Apple fell out of the top five brands
in the China market, so there's huge success there. Robotics again,
very very impressive obviously with AI we saw with the
(13:56):
spot Nick moment as people referred to it with deep
sea and absolutely impressive large language LLM. So that's the
one side. On the other side, you mentioned you have
a very weak consumer market, you have an overhang from
(14:17):
continuing from the real estate market which has been so
important to the economy, and then also the pandemic they've
really never recovered from it. So we saw both those
cited by the OECD earlier this week when they downgraded
their forecast for Chinese growth I think to four point
six percent for next year. It's not clear what china
strategy is at this point to actually reverse that and
(14:41):
bring confidence back not just the household but also to
the private sector as well.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
You know, Tip, what I find really interesting is basically
you've got the two largest economies in the world wanting
to stay or be number one, right And what's interesting
is I feel like the US is kind of trying
to put limitations on the China or telling European allies
which you can or can't sell to China, And you know,
(15:08):
it's like and yet we don't want China to put
any restrictions on us. So I'm curious to see how
this plays out. And I think a big part of
it will be where allies fall. And so what kind
of carving up of the world will we see And
who do you expect will lie themselves with China? Who
with the United States? And does Donald Trump make it.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Better or worse for.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
The US developing the alliances that it really needs.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Well, wonderful and very important question, Carol.
Speaker 8 (15:37):
If you'd asked me six months ago, before January twentieth,
I think we could see some real We could see
some pretty solid allies in Europe, among some of our
real close partners in Asia, Japan, South Korea, Australia.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Since January twentieth, since the big view the tariffs, the.
Speaker 8 (16:01):
Beautiful tariffs that have been you know, imposed and threatened
over fifty times, by the way, over fifty different tariffs
and adjustments to tariff policy coming out of Washington, there's
I think I think our alliances are feeling I'm afraid
a little bit. Our allies and our alliances are a
bit fraid. So, you know, the other thing I just
want to mention, China hasn't been sitting still at all.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
They are very aware. The US has been aware as.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
Well about this almost existential tech and supply chain rivalry
between the two countries. They've spent the recent years really
sort of redirecting the countries their investment focus. So we see,
for example, you know, just take you know, a basic
agricultural product. We've seen how they made tremendous strides in
(16:48):
lessening their reliance on American soybeans and instead by the
majority now from Brazil.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
We've seen that across the board.
Speaker 8 (16:56):
So there's been a real growth, there's been a real
growth in in exports, Chinese exports and investment into what
we call the Global South, and and a lessening of
the reduction of the relationship between the US and to
a lesser degree with the EU, although the EU is
very much in play now. I think China sees that
(17:17):
as a real potential ally so that they can scoop up.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
All right, So if I can can just follow just
real quickly, tips, so then do you see China lying
with a bunch of European nations and.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Who ultimately is the US allies at Russia? Like, just
carve it up for me if you would.
Speaker 8 (17:37):
Well, I certainly hope that's not what happens. I don't
think we should be with Russia. And Russia, of course,
is a pretty insignificant I mean it's it's not insignificant,
but economically and in terms of trades trade, it's a
relatively small player, unlike the EU obviously. So you know,
I'm hopeful that we've seen some new pragmaticism, if you will.
(18:00):
I hope coming out of Washington there's been a willingness
to try to uh renegotiate some of these initial cair
of threats that were imposed by Washington.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
So I would hope we'll see, you know, come first
of all out.
Speaker 8 (18:13):
Of London again, although I'm not sure how long that
can stick. But some progress in uh In, uh In
in in cooling tensions and then and then moving on
to some of our other partners. Obviously there's been the
talks with India as well. So I guess I'm not
giving you a great straight answer, Carol, but so much,
so much is changing so fast.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Yeah, I do think just finished with one thought on that.
Speaker 8 (18:37):
I do think that Trump has made it clear when
we know this, of course, that he wants he wants.
He's perceives himself as a deal maker. He wants to
cut deals and he, if necessary, will reduce those tariffs
and try to create a better relationship with countries, starting
out right now in London with.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
China, tiff uh We've talked a lot about this with
with other people. We haven't heard your take on it,
but we know the president and he's been public about this.
He said he doesn't care if iPhones are made in India.
He wants them to be made here in the US.
He doesn't want them in China. He doesn't want them
to be made in India, as Apple has diversified its
supply chain. Given what you know about iPhone production, do
(19:16):
you believe it's realistic for us to think that Apple
could actually build iPhones in the US, you.
Speaker 8 (19:24):
Know, if we want to spend you know, five thousand
dollars per iPhone.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
No, No, I don't think so.
Speaker 8 (19:29):
I think that's I mean, if he were able to
convince iPhone to do that, it's going to hurt all
of us. It's certainly going to hurt us the consumers
in much higher prices. There's no reason for Apple to
do that. And even as Apple is falling out of
the top five places in the China market, China is
an important market for Apple. India is an important market
going forward, So there's no reason for Apple to do that.
(19:53):
Electric vehicles, That's an interesting.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Tidbit that Trump threw up on the election trail.
Speaker 8 (20:00):
I think in Iowa where he talked about welcoming Chinese
electric vehicle makers into the US.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
That makes sense. It would be a big I think
that's what you think that could happen like that?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
You think we could see that, You think we could
see that in the next couple of years.
Speaker 8 (20:15):
I definitely a possibility. Trump is indicated he would I
mean that.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
That would destroy US automakers.
Speaker 8 (20:22):
No, if maybe maybe maybe take a leaf from the
old China model and say we get fifty percent or
fifty one percent of a joint venture and you have
to work with our companies.
Speaker 7 (20:39):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (20:39):
This is you know, sounds a little crazy, but that's
what China did and it worked very well for them.
Maybe the US could try something like that, and Trump again,
he is indicated that.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
He might be open to that.
Speaker 8 (20:51):
The idea that you would have, you know, big Chinese
factories in the US and creating American jobs.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Certainly that's what Europe is doing right now.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
All right, we got to leave it there.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Hey, Tiff, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Good to get some thoughts from you on this situation.
Of course, we're going to continue to monitor those talks
over in London between US and Chinese officials, which, as
we've been talking, could go into the evening as well
as into tomorrow, of course. Tiff Roberts Professor of Chinese
politics at the University of Montana, former Bloomberg BusinessWeek China
Buera chief and also the author of the myth of
Chinese Capitalism.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
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Speaker 3 (21:43):
Watching shares Apple today following by one point two percent.
The company's annual Worldwide Developer Conference kicking off in Cooper
Tino at Ludlow was there earlier. He brought you some updates.
You could kind of wait around all year for the
WWDC to get some news, or you could just read
what Mark German has been writing in his newsletter and
what he's been reporting for Bloomberg subscribers and terminal clients,
(22:05):
because he pretty much called everything. Mark German is joining
us now. He's Managing editor for Global Consumer Technology. He
joins us from our Bloomberg Los Angeles bureau. Mark. I'm
kind of joking, but I'm also kind of not joking.
We knew a lot of this was coming thanks to
your reporting. Did you learn anything new at WWDC today?
Speaker 9 (22:24):
I think we got everything. Big Appell told a good story.
I think they showed a cohesive message of unification across
its platforms. They definitely didn't pre announce things. Everything you
saw today is going to come out before the end
of the year. That's why you didn't see much forward
looking stuff like you've seen in the past two years.
They got a lot of flack for that. The other
thing to understand or the new iPad changes, the iPad
(22:46):
multitasking changes are significant, all encompassing and has long been requested.
They make the iPad function more like a Mac and
it certainly is going to be a big improvement for
people who are relying more and more on devices like
the iPad as their main computing platform.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Hey, one of the things that we've been talking about,
we also caught up with that Ludlow earlier who was
also there about AI models and opening that up to developers.
Big deal, because we've talked with you several times about
Apple really lagging behind when it comes to artificial intelligence.
How do you see this move?
Speaker 9 (23:23):
This was a necessary move. They need to open those
underlying models in order to get developers to use Apple
intelligence and to make it a bigger competitor to the
lms from other companies. So certainly this was a necessary move.
This is another move that we had anticipated for days now.
Certainly it's going to be seen which developers are going
to want to do this. How good are these lms
(23:45):
developers really want to, you know, hitch their wagon. Two
Apple lms versus third party lms that can also run
on the company's devices, certainly to be seen.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Hey, Mark, I want to make sure we have a
little bit of a delay, so I'm going to give
our team a little bit of time to work on
resetting this connection. Once again, we're speaking with Mark German.
He's head of Global Consumer Technology, Managing editor for Global
Consumer Technology. He's joining us from our Los Angeles bureau.
Liquid Glass is the overhauled visual design for Apple's new
(24:15):
software platform. That's how the experience is being described by Apple. Mark,
what does that unveiling tell you or tell us about
the way Apple's thinking about hardware moving forward?
Speaker 9 (24:29):
In terms of Apple hardward moving forward, I think this
new glass interfaces a peak of what's to come. iOS
twenty six obviously has the liquid Glass UI, and certainly
there's going to be a lot of changes to the
iPhone for the twentieth anniversary in twenty twenty seven, and
an all glass design is going to be part of that.
And so now you'll have software and hardware that are
both glass heavy and all integrated. So I think this
(24:51):
is a driving force behind that change.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Anything you heard from the developers that were there, Mark
that kind of were they more hopeful, were they more excited?
Were they more are like, hmm, we wanted more. I'm
just curious any kind of feedback that you've been hearing.
Speaker 9 (25:04):
I think developers like the story Apple told. I think
developers like the integration of large language models into Excode
for programming. I think developers are excited about the iPad
multitasking changes as I am. I think developers are excited
about the new three D web browser review and the
Vision pro and the widgets and the like. So I
think there's a lot to like if you are a
deep user of the Apple platforms. But remember we're talking
(25:27):
about legacy platforms here. We're talking about operating system franchises
that have existed for decades. But we're not talking about
are new interface paradigms, new operating systems, artificial intelligence because
quite frankly, Apple didn't have any of that to show today.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yes, Okay, that's what I wanted to hit on, Mark,
is what we still haven't seen from Apple when it
comes to AI. You've long documented the struggles that the
company has had. Everybody should go read your reporting on this.
Did we get anything from Apple on AI today?
Speaker 9 (25:55):
Apple is perfecting its past. It's not perfecting or setting
the ground work for its future. And that is a
scary thing.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Maybe that's why we saw shares do what they did today, Carol,
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
I mean, folksres but.
Speaker 9 (26:10):
Well, they didn't send anything to lower They didn't say
anything to drive shares down or up. They just didn't
show anything remarkably innovative and exciting. You know, investors are
looking for all the AI buzzwords. They're looking for AI innovation.
You've seen it from Google, Open Ai, anthropic, Microsoft Meta,
You've not seen it from Apple.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Yeah, it was about a three percent swinging today up
as much as a one percent, down almost two percent,
and finishing the day down about one point two percent.
Here all right, Mark, glad we could check in with you. Yeah,
Mark laid it out for us really ahead of the event,
but just go to get him to weigh in kind
of afterwards. Mark Germitt, he's Bloomberg News Managing editor for
(26:50):
Global Consumer Tech. Out there in our la era.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Just reading the highlights from our live blog, the iPhone
getting revamped, iPhone and camera apps that focus on simplicity,
The II futures, Oh Carol underwhelming.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Catch
us Live weekday afternoons from two to five East. During
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Speaker 4 (27:16):
We also continue to monitor different things that come out
of the White House, and they certainly have made some
comments when it comes to healthcare pharmaceuticals in the United States,
which is one of the reasons we want to really
get to our next guest, good X good RX. I
should say they recently reported earnings. Just a little bit
of background. Shares did jump after the price the drug
pricing comparison software company.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
They did boost their.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Guidance for just a Ibada for the full year, falling
better than expected results for the first quarter. We did
see analysts saying, some of them that the EBITDA beat
and raised as a good start to twenty twenty five
for the company. Let's get into the business and how
White House policies are impacting good OURX Wendy Barnes is
president CEO of the company. She joins us from Charlotte,
(27:58):
North Carolina company. By the way, Markey kappav at at
one point four billion shares two a year to date,
or down about twelve percent. They're down more than fifty
percent though in the past year. Wendy, good to have
you here with us. There's a lot going on in
your space, but I want to talk first and start
with a new initiative that you guys have actually introduced today.
(28:19):
It's called the Community Links program.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
Why did you do this?
Speaker 4 (28:22):
What was the impetus for creating it?
Speaker 10 (28:25):
Hi, Carol, thanks for having me appreciate the question. So
you know, I would say the company's been on a
multi year journey to best partner with retail pharmacies, with
community pharmacies really being at the top of that list,
and this is really the culmination of that work. And
so what you referenced, the good RX Community Link is
(28:48):
a portal by which community pharmacies, sometimes referred to as
independent pharmacies. So think of those as really your non
chain pharmacies. They can be as small as a single
pharmacy or some community independent pharmacy owners have fifty seventy
five or one hundred locations, but largely their run independent
(29:08):
of a broader management philosophy, and this is our effort
to contract directly with these pharmacies in a cost plus
reimbursement mechanism manner. Look, it's not any new news to
you or probably to your listeners that pharmacies continue to
be under reimbursement pressure.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
And we believe that they are key partners in our broader.
Speaker 10 (29:32):
Mission to make medications more affordable and accessible for every American.
And so this effort is really one in which we're
trying to bolster reimbursement for those independent pharmacies such that
they can work with us directly. And in addition to that,
we're giving them access to ninety plus brand deals that
we have secured with pharmaceutical manufacturers over the last twelve
(29:56):
to twenty four months, and those continue to grow. The
reimbursement on those same drugs is favorable to those pharmacies.
It's really no secret that pharmacies have long struggled to
have a favorable margin profile on many brands that they fill,
and this two gives access to those programs for those
(30:16):
independent pharmacies.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Well when they anecdotally speaking, as the large pharmacies and
the chains have come under pressure, whether it's over store
closures or different things happening just in the space we've
all reported on what's happened in cities and the way
that some of these pharmacies have closed down in certain cities.
Are you seeing more people go to these independent pharmacies?
(30:39):
I mean, anecdotally speaking, I can say that certainly the
way my family has changed its behavior just thanks to
availability and what pharmacies tend to actually have what we're
looking for. But how have you seen that affect the
overall landscape.
Speaker 10 (30:53):
I don't know that we've seen a meaningful shift to
independent from chain. I think there's still a pretty good
of grosser versus independent versus chain, and candidly, you know,
mail order slash digital pharmacy. I think at the end
of the day, what we see is in the seventy
plus odd thousand pharmacy options that we have as consumers
(31:14):
in the US that as a consumer, you just really
want to get your drugs on your own terms, whether
it's mail to your home with your preferred community pharmacist,
or at a chain or grosser. And we pride ourselves
on working really with all pharmacy such that you can
get your drugs when and where you know you desire
to do so.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Do you see it all that the independent channel is shrinking.
We've certainly seen it with some of the big pharmacy chains, right,
We've talked about it, You've seen the headlines. But I'm
just curious when it comes to independence, Wendy, do you
see any shrinkage in terms of the number of outlets
that are out There are no, you.
Speaker 10 (31:51):
Know, I will say in the numbers that we've looked
at over the last couple of years, there are still
a good number opening in any given month. I will
say in our book, with the pharmacies that we work with,
I haven't seen significant trinkage. But I think there are
certainly other data sources that would suggest that there are
a number of independent and or community pharmacies that are
closing in or selling their business to other owners.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
But in our particular book, it's held pretty study.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
How have independence traditionally reacted to the program at GoodRx,
because it's our understand they've been a little skeptical about it.
How do you make sure that they're embracing it rather
than treating it with skepticism.
Speaker 10 (32:30):
Sure, well, I think you know, look, it's early days
to be clear, and we're going to be on a
journey here. Communication is going to be the biggest part
of this program, in addition to delivering what we said
we intend to deliver, which is fair economics over the
course of these contractual agreements as pharmacies agree to contract
with this directly, and that again can all be conveyed
(32:53):
through that portal that we stood up this morning. So
for me, it's really going to be about how we
deliver on the reimbursement mechanism through this partnership, and I think,
you know, the ongoing communication will support how the pharmacy
community embraces this over time. You know, we've certainly been
setting out communications early on. We've been in dialogue with
(33:15):
many independent pharmacy owners to speak through the program. But
I think at the end of the day, it's really
going to be the outcome of the program and the
economics that we deliver that we'll prove it out over time.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Well, that's where I want to kind of just dig
a little bit deeper, Wendy. You know, for this to
work for you guys, this new role out this community
links program. The economics have to work right for the
independent pharmacy. So I'm just curious what you can tell
us how the economics are different for the pharmacy that
directly contacts with GoodRx versus using maybe one of the
(33:45):
pharmacy benefit managers the PBMs and their networks to dispense
a prescription. What can you tell us more specifically about
the economic advantage for independent pharmacies to use your route
versus going to the PBMs.
Speaker 6 (34:00):
Sure happy to do so. So it's really the agreement
directly with us is.
Speaker 10 (34:05):
Rooted on a NADAK plus reimbursement. So NADAK is one
of multiple benchmarks that is effectively a cost mechanism. It
stands for National average drug acquisition cost, and we are
negotiating with independent pharmacies to do this with that predicated
as the baseline, plus an amount that keeps them profitable
(34:25):
on filling these claims.
Speaker 6 (34:27):
So that's really the precursor, if.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
You will, and or the meat of how this agreement
will work, which again provides favorable economics to these pharmacies.
The distinction, Carol, as you called out to perhaps doing
it through a larger payer when you think about how
it works through let's just say a larger PDM. There
are multiple patient pay slash cash networks through which an
(34:52):
independent pharmacy can participate. And when they're in that type
of an algorithm, for lack of better description, typically.
Speaker 6 (35:00):
Going to search for.
Speaker 10 (35:03):
Not necessarily favorable margin for the pharmacy, and so there
would be times in their previous arrangement whereby they may
not always have favorable economics to fill those prescriptions. And
by contracting directly, we are putting terms and conditions in
the agreement that allow them to have certainty around not
only the reimbursement, but also access to drugs that they're
(35:25):
not fulfilling today in patient pay programs. Again, that would
be the list of brands that I mentioned that I
believe are ninety plus at this point. But they're going
to have certainty around how they're reimbursed in this direct
engagement through us that they're not getting through their arrangements today.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Hey, Wendy, we're watching everything happening outside of Washington and
coming out of Washington really closely. We're expected to hear
from the President in just a few minutes. There's an
event happening in the Oval Office that's about a kid
account event scheduled. It was scheduled for two pm. We
understand the presspool has gathered. If the President starts to
take questions, we will certainly go there. In the meantime,
(36:03):
thinking about healthcare in the United States, it is inextricably
bound to politics, and no question, if what the President
calls the Big Beautiful Bill were to pass, we could see,
at least according to the CBO estimates of a dramatic
increase in the number of uninsured almost eight million. What
does that mean for your business and how much of
(36:25):
your business comes from medicaid and uninsured people today?
Speaker 10 (36:28):
So interestingly, of the users who access our pricing on
any given day, roughly ninety percent actually have insurance today.
So I think there's a bit of a misperception that
the overwhelming number of consumers who use us in fact
don't have insurance, which is not the case. Having said that,
(36:49):
who does come and look for pricing through our different
platforms is your consumer who's motivated to check for.
Speaker 6 (36:56):
Competitive pricing, whether they have insurance or not.
Speaker 10 (37:00):
And we continue to be the number one platform to
look for the best price deal that you can find
on any particular medication. So as it pertains to what
may or may not pass in the bill, whether it's
inclusive of Medicaid cuts which continue to be advanced, and
or other cuts that would put pressure on your typical
(37:21):
household income. What we do know is that those should
produce tailwinds for us as a business, for consumers, whether
they're insured or not, but specifically as it relates to
Medicaid cuts and the number of individuals that may fall
out of coverage, we do believe that that presents an
opportunity for us to continue to support any American that
(37:44):
really is struggling to purchase their medications.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
Wendy, just got thirty seconds. You know, the word that
we all use to describe the environment right now is uncertain.
There's a lot coming out, certainly leaders and CEOs. Just
in your industry too. You've got write aid, do a bankruptcy,
you know, I think about the macro within your business
and just macro overall. Just got about twenty five seconds.
How do you look at the outlook?
Speaker 5 (38:08):
Just quickly?
Speaker 6 (38:10):
You know the outlook? You're right, turbulent is a fair description.
Speaker 10 (38:15):
Having said that, businesses that stay the course and have
a mission that makes sense for the consumers in which
we serve will continue to thrive. And our goal, of course,
is getting medication affordably and effectively into the hands of
every American.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
You need it, and we believe will be in a
position to take advantage.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Wendy Barnes, President CEO of GoodRx.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
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(38:56):
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Speaker 8 (39:03):
Ver
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Speaker 2 (00:08):
This is Bloomberg business Week Daily reporting from the magazine
that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies,
and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business finance
and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week
Daily Podcast with Carol Masser and Tim Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Los Angeles entered its fourth day of unrest sparked by
immigration raids, with President Trump suggesting that Gavin Newsom should
be arrested for his response, and the governor suing the
administration for deploying National Guard troops to the city. Separately,
the Pentagon is mobilizing five hundred active duty Marines to
help reinforce the National Guard in response to protests in
(00:53):
Los Angeles. Just according to a person familiar with the matter.
Speaker 4 (00:56):
All right, so let's get to it with Sarah McGregor.
She is with USh. She's Bloomberg News National Team Managing
editor based in Los Angeles, and she joins us from
the LA Bureau. Sarah, you know we've talked with you
before different moments of crisis in and around the LA area.
Speaker 5 (01:11):
Just talked to us.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
First of all, a little perspective from you and this
city and what you.
Speaker 6 (01:17):
Have seen over the last few days.
Speaker 7 (01:20):
Absolutely. I think the last time we spoke it was
during the LA wildfires, when the California National Guard we're
here to protect people, and of course now we're seeing
them in the city at the order of Trump, against
the wishes of Newsome, trying to quell demonstrations that are
across the city. And just to put into context today,
over the weekend, you know, we did see some violence,
some clashes with the police, more than thirty people arrested
(01:42):
at those but you know, it's quite isolated pockets downtown LA,
just areas south of the city. This is in response
to immigration rates. Today. What we're seeing are largely peaceful protests.
So far, there's a lot of large gathering in downtown
LA but so far we aren't seeing that sort of
violence that picked up later in the day yesterday. So,
(02:03):
you know, just to put that into perspective. As the
Marines are now being sent actually we are reporting it's
seven hundred now we've gotten more information that it's now
seven hundred and so apparently they're on their way to
LA and that definitely sets the stage for tensions to rise.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
You know, I think people outside of the Los Angeles area,
and perhaps in Los Angeles, they see images of unrest
in LA and if they're of a certain age, maybe
they think of nineteen ninety two and what we saw
in the wake of the video of Rodney King being
beaten and the riots that happened in April and May
(02:38):
of that year. Can you contextualize that and just put
this into historical context of what the city has seen.
Speaker 7 (02:47):
I don't want to downplay anything, because I do know,
you know, police officers have been hurt, and they're you know,
the security forces have definitely had to respond, and they've
thrown bricks. You know, different charges have been laid, including
attempt at murder for throwing them alto So there's definitely
some serious, serious counts here. But ultimately, you know, the
city is widely calm, and I think it's just sort
(03:08):
of the comparable now of sending in the National Guard,
now sending in Marines that really it doesn't seem to
be a match in terms of and that's what the
Trump the News administration would say. It doesn't really seem
to be a match in terms of what the needs
are for the security forces. So that's not to say
that things could escalate, But I think the worry from Newsom,
from Marbez is that it's actually by sending in the
(03:28):
big guns that things will actually attentions will arise and
people will lose their cool, and so I think they're
more worried that the show of force will actually make
the situation even worse.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
You mentioned today, Sarah that we're seeing some peaceful protests.
I'm just curious, though, have the protests grown in numbers.
Speaker 7 (03:48):
It is really hard to tell because they are spread out.
It does seem in sort of similar numbers from day
to day in terms of protesters. Today, we're actually seeing
a large number of people in downtown LA protesting a
labor leader, a major labor leader, who has been detained.
He's been charged actually now with obstructing the pathway of
a federal vehicle and so he's going to face charges
on that, and some local leaders like Maxine Waters, some
(04:11):
Democratic leaders Adam Schiff, have called for his release, have
asked to enter the detention center where he's being held,
and they were denied. So I think that's raising some
tensions on a whole other level of just a bit
of an outcry about this labor leader being detained, Sir.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
When we last checked in with you regularly, it was
during the devastating wildfires in and around the Los Angeles area.
At that time, Mayor Karen Bass was getting a lot
of criticism from folks about the city's response to the fires.
How would you characterize the role that she's taken during
these during this latest episode that we're speaking to you about,
(04:47):
what has she been doing?
Speaker 7 (04:50):
I think because you know, the exchange, especially today and
social media, has largely been between Newsom and Trump. Newsom's
you know, just sent a tweet out, for instance, with
a picture of some of the National Guards sleeping on
the floor, saying Trump sent these people here and now
they have no place to rest, they have no food.
You know, it's sort of back and forth between Trump
and Newsome. I think that's sort of overshadowed. I think
(05:11):
the efforts locally on the ground of what folks are doing,
at least from a national perspective. So you know, Karen
Bess has been up front, she's been holding press conferences.
You know, there hasn't been a criticism I think about
the LAPG, the LA Police Force and how they've been
handling the situation at large outside of Trump and his administration.
So I think here at home, there isn't a lot
(05:34):
of analysis yet, I suppose of how it's being handled
at a local level, but it does seem like it's
you know, calm heads, Sarah.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
I am also curious about kind of the mood and
the view point of most Los Angelinos, if you will.
It's a diverse city, Folks from many walks of life
in Los Angeles, So I'm just curious what is the
public's view, if there's a general view when it comes
to immigration right now.
Speaker 7 (06:03):
Well, you know, all of these these protested stem from
some raids on Friday and the public seeing you know,
seeing the ICE folks mobilizing around home depots or the
fashion district in LA to capture folks, and so that
anger is palpable. That's where this all stemmed from. You know,
we have been receiving la USD. The school district has
had a press conference today, you know, telling people they're
(06:25):
not going to cooperate with ICE in terms of you know,
handing over anyone or giving names and numbers of you know,
parents in the school district. They're going to protect the kids.
So I do think it sort of raises that awareness
in a way. I think there have been isolated raids
in LA, but we haven't really felt the brunt of
this deportation campaigned by Trump, and I think as they've
scaled things up to try and reach numbers, to try
(06:47):
and reach their three thousand and day minimum of arrests,
we started to see LA be ground zero for that.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Yeah, it's been remarkable to see play out over the
last four days. Governor Cuomo, who's running for mayor of
New York City, was on Bloomberg Surveyllance a little earlier, Sarah,
and he made the point that you might actually see
He made the point that what you see in Los
Angeles you could see in New York City next. And
I'm just wondering how you view a comment such as
that with regard to what you've seen the federal government
(07:16):
and what we've reported the federal government do in Los Angeles.
Speaker 7 (07:21):
Absolutely, I mean we are watching, out of course, to
see if sort of protests breakout in other cities and
solidarity of what's happening in LA. We saw some protests
in San Francisco, for example, yesterday where sixty people were arrested.
So it is possible, especially in some of these blue
states where they have sanctuary city policies that the Trump
administration has been very critical of.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
There.
Speaker 7 (07:40):
You know, it is something to watch out for whether
similar things will will unfold in these cities.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
All right, we're going to leave it on that note. Listen, Sarah,
thanks so much for always keeping us up to date.
Sarah McGregor. She is our Bloomberg News National Team managing editor.
She's based in Los Angeles and she's been joining us
from our LA bureau.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
You're listening to the Blue Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast.
Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five eas
during Listen on Applecarplay and Android Otto with the Bloomberg
Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, trade talk between the US and China stretched on
in London. The US signaled a willingness to remove restrictions
on some tech ex sports in exchange for assurances that
China is easing limits on rare earth shipments. The meeting
began just after one pm local time. It's expected to
extend into the UK evening. It may restart on Tuesday,
Caro if necessary. We got a great voice on this.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
We do indeed back with us, Dexter Tiff Roberts. He's
non resident Senior Fellow at the Atlanta Council's Global China Hub.
He's also author of Trade War, a weekly newsletter on
China's economy. He's also professor of Chinese politics at the
University of Montana. He's former Bloomberg BusinessWeek China bureau chief.
He lived in Beijing for two decades covering it all
for Business Week, and he's author of the twenty twenty book.
(08:56):
We've talked to him about this the myth of Chinese capitalism,
the worker, the fact, and the future of the world. Sorry,
we're out of time interview, but this is why you
want to talk to him about China.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
He joins us from Mizzola, Montana.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Tip. Good to have you back with us.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
Yeah, these negotiations between the US and China, what for
you is what you think we should all have on
our radar here?
Speaker 8 (09:23):
Well, it's all from the US perspective. As we know,
it's all about rare earth exports. We we've got ourselves
in a situation over a number of years where China
absolutely dominates the production and the processing of these crucial,
crucial rare earths that you know, we need for every
(09:45):
almost everything you can, you know, you name it, we
need it for. We need rare earth smartphones, uh, you know,
electric vehicles, robot x miss missile systems. You know, defense
need to as well.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Tiff if that's the case, and we spoke to Graceland
Baskren at csis a little earlier in our program. She
joined us from South Africa and we talked specifically about rareers,
but in the context of trade negotiations and who actually
has the leverage since for the US this is all
about rare earths, does that mean that China has the
upper hand in your view?
Speaker 8 (10:21):
Well, I actually do think China has a little bit
more leverage than the US, but it's close. We had
the numbers earlier this week. Chinese exports disappointed. You know,
we saw this dramatic I think it was thirty four
and a half percent drop in exports to the US.
You know, they've been doing a little bit better because
(10:42):
they've been selling a lot to Southeast Asia, the EU,
and Africa, but not well enough.
Speaker 5 (10:47):
So China. It's not like China's not hurting.
Speaker 8 (10:50):
But I do think on the US side, there's these
real fears about inflation if the trade war goes on.
We saw the relatively weak job report, and we got
something called the midterm elections coming up, and China, as
we know, doesn't have any mid term elections ahead.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Well, I love that you went there, and I was
going to ask you, you know, TIV, what about you know,
what is it about the grand kind of Chinese experiment
and mission that has happened under President Xi? As you said,
there's no midterms. He's pretty well entrenched and ensconced in
his position. But what is it about his mission, his
great experiment and you know kind of goal in creating
(11:33):
the Chinese economy that we look at today?
Speaker 5 (11:35):
What about it works?
Speaker 3 (11:37):
What doesn't?
Speaker 8 (11:40):
Well, first of all, I would just say that grand
goal it's clear She jene Ping has and has been
you know, vocalized and publicized, often more often in Chinese
than English. But they're very clear that they want China
to play a dominant role in global supply chains, as
they already do, but they want to they want to
(12:00):
strengthen that at the high end, and they want to
dominate advanced technology. So, first of all, that grand goal
that we see out of Beijing, unfortunately, is in direct
conflict with what we would like to see in the US.
So I guess I just say at the outset, you know,
we may get some agreements. I think we will out
(12:20):
of London, but I'm really skeptical, skeptical that they're going to.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Last long term. For that reason, there's a real there's a.
Speaker 8 (12:29):
Real difference of opinions, if you will, about who's going
to going to lead in advance deck and supply chains globally.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Tiff, this is almost an impossible question for any single
person to answer, but I think you can probably give
as good of a view into this as anybody else.
For the last few months, Carol and I've been trying
to figure out what exactly is happening on the ground
when it comes to the Chinese economy, to what extent
is the Chinese economy ahead of the US when it
comes to electric vehicles, when it comes to robotics, when
it comes to AI. Because of a past few years,
(13:00):
what we've learned is that there's yes been a property crisis,
the consumer is under pressure, there's a debt crisis certainly
as well. We've reported on extensively. So how would you
characterize the Chinese consumer, the Chinese economy and where the
strengths and weaknesses are right now.
Speaker 8 (13:17):
Well, there's a real you've just hit hit upon it, Tim,
there's this real dichotomy. We have seen tremendous success in
areas like electric vehicles. There's no question now that they
are doing far better than we are and leading the
world in terms of affordable and very good electric vehicles.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
And I saw that last.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
Year when I wrote it in some as well when
I was in China, we saw, you know, obviously areas
like smartphones. Apple fell out of the top five brands
in the China market, so there's huge success there. Robotics again,
very very impressive obviously with AI we saw with the
(13:56):
spot Nick moment as people referred to it with deep
sea and absolutely impressive large language LLM. So that's the
one side. On the other side, you mentioned you have
a very weak consumer market, you have an overhang from
(14:17):
continuing from the real estate market which has been so
important to the economy, and then also the pandemic they've
really never recovered from it. So we saw both those
cited by the OECD earlier this week when they downgraded
their forecast for Chinese growth I think to four point
six percent for next year. It's not clear what china
strategy is at this point to actually reverse that and
(14:41):
bring confidence back not just the household but also to
the private sector as well.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
You know, Tip, what I find really interesting is basically
you've got the two largest economies in the world wanting
to stay or be number one, right And what's interesting
is I feel like the US is kind of trying
to put limitations on the China or telling European allies
which you can or can't sell to China, And you know,
(15:08):
it's like and yet we don't want China to put
any restrictions on us. So I'm curious to see how
this plays out. And I think a big part of
it will be where allies fall. And so what kind
of carving up of the world will we see And
who do you expect will lie themselves with China? Who
with the United States? And does Donald Trump make it.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Better or worse for.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
The US developing the alliances that it really needs.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
Well, wonderful and very important question, Carol.
Speaker 8 (15:37):
If you'd asked me six months ago, before January twentieth,
I think we could see some real We could see
some pretty solid allies in Europe, among some of our
real close partners in Asia, Japan, South Korea, Australia.
Speaker 5 (15:54):
Since January twentieth, since the big view the tariffs, the.
Speaker 8 (16:01):
Beautiful tariffs that have been you know, imposed and threatened
over fifty times, by the way, over fifty different tariffs
and adjustments to tariff policy coming out of Washington, there's
I think I think our alliances are feeling I'm afraid
a little bit. Our allies and our alliances are a
bit fraid. So, you know, the other thing I just
want to mention, China hasn't been sitting still at all.
Speaker 5 (16:24):
They are very aware. The US has been aware as.
Speaker 8 (16:26):
Well about this almost existential tech and supply chain rivalry
between the two countries. They've spent the recent years really
sort of redirecting the countries their investment focus. So we see,
for example, you know, just take you know, a basic
agricultural product. We've seen how they made tremendous strides in
(16:48):
lessening their reliance on American soybeans and instead by the
majority now from Brazil.
Speaker 5 (16:54):
We've seen that across the board.
Speaker 8 (16:56):
So there's been a real growth, there's been a real
growth in in exports, Chinese exports and investment into what
we call the Global South, and and a lessening of
the reduction of the relationship between the US and to
a lesser degree with the EU, although the EU is
very much in play now. I think China sees that
(17:17):
as a real potential ally so that they can scoop up.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
All right, So if I can can just follow just
real quickly, tips, so then do you see China lying
with a bunch of European nations and.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Who ultimately is the US allies at Russia? Like, just
carve it up for me if you would.
Speaker 8 (17:37):
Well, I certainly hope that's not what happens. I don't
think we should be with Russia. And Russia, of course,
is a pretty insignificant I mean it's it's not insignificant,
but economically and in terms of trades trade, it's a
relatively small player, unlike the EU obviously. So you know,
I'm hopeful that we've seen some new pragmaticism, if you will.
(18:00):
I hope coming out of Washington there's been a willingness
to try to uh renegotiate some of these initial cair
of threats that were imposed by Washington.
Speaker 5 (18:10):
So I would hope we'll see, you know, come first
of all out.
Speaker 8 (18:13):
Of London again, although I'm not sure how long that
can stick. But some progress in uh In, uh In
in in cooling tensions and then and then moving on
to some of our other partners. Obviously there's been the
talks with India as well. So I guess I'm not
giving you a great straight answer, Carol, but so much,
so much is changing so fast.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Yeah, I do think just finished with one thought on that.
Speaker 8 (18:37):
I do think that Trump has made it clear when
we know this, of course, that he wants he wants.
He's perceives himself as a deal maker. He wants to
cut deals and he, if necessary, will reduce those tariffs
and try to create a better relationship with countries, starting
out right now in London with.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
China, tiff uh We've talked a lot about this with
with other people. We haven't heard your take on it,
but we know the president and he's been public about this.
He said he doesn't care if iPhones are made in India.
He wants them to be made here in the US.
He doesn't want them in China. He doesn't want them
to be made in India, as Apple has diversified its
supply chain. Given what you know about iPhone production, do
(19:16):
you believe it's realistic for us to think that Apple
could actually build iPhones in the US, you.
Speaker 8 (19:24):
Know, if we want to spend you know, five thousand
dollars per iPhone.
Speaker 5 (19:27):
No, No, I don't think so.
Speaker 8 (19:29):
I think that's I mean, if he were able to
convince iPhone to do that, it's going to hurt all
of us. It's certainly going to hurt us the consumers
in much higher prices. There's no reason for Apple to
do that. And even as Apple is falling out of
the top five places in the China market, China is
an important market for Apple. India is an important market
going forward, So there's no reason for Apple to do that.
(19:53):
Electric vehicles, That's an interesting.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Tidbit that Trump threw up on the election trail.
Speaker 8 (20:00):
I think in Iowa where he talked about welcoming Chinese
electric vehicle makers into the US.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
That makes sense. It would be a big I think
that's what you think that could happen like that?
Speaker 3 (20:10):
You think we could see that, You think we could
see that in the next couple of years.
Speaker 8 (20:15):
I definitely a possibility. Trump is indicated he would I
mean that.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
That would destroy US automakers.
Speaker 8 (20:22):
No, if maybe maybe maybe take a leaf from the
old China model and say we get fifty percent or
fifty one percent of a joint venture and you have
to work with our companies.
Speaker 7 (20:39):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (20:39):
This is you know, sounds a little crazy, but that's
what China did and it worked very well for them.
Maybe the US could try something like that, and Trump again,
he is indicated that.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
He might be open to that.
Speaker 8 (20:51):
The idea that you would have, you know, big Chinese
factories in the US and creating American jobs.
Speaker 5 (20:57):
Certainly that's what Europe is doing right now.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
All right, we got to leave it there.
Speaker 5 (21:02):
Hey, Tiff, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Good to get some thoughts from you on this situation.
Of course, we're going to continue to monitor those talks
over in London between US and Chinese officials, which, as
we've been talking, could go into the evening as well
as into tomorrow, of course. Tiff Roberts Professor of Chinese
politics at the University of Montana, former Bloomberg BusinessWeek China
Buera chief and also the author of the myth of
Chinese Capitalism.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast listen live
each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Applecarplay and
the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can
also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New
York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
Watching shares Apple today following by one point two percent.
The company's annual Worldwide Developer Conference kicking off in Cooper
Tino at Ludlow was there earlier. He brought you some updates.
You could kind of wait around all year for the
WWDC to get some news, or you could just read
what Mark German has been writing in his newsletter and
what he's been reporting for Bloomberg subscribers and terminal clients,
(22:05):
because he pretty much called everything. Mark German is joining
us now. He's Managing editor for Global Consumer Technology. He
joins us from our Bloomberg Los Angeles bureau. Mark. I'm
kind of joking, but I'm also kind of not joking.
We knew a lot of this was coming thanks to
your reporting. Did you learn anything new at WWDC today?
Speaker 9 (22:24):
I think we got everything. Big Appell told a good story.
I think they showed a cohesive message of unification across
its platforms. They definitely didn't pre announce things. Everything you
saw today is going to come out before the end
of the year. That's why you didn't see much forward
looking stuff like you've seen in the past two years.
They got a lot of flack for that. The other
thing to understand or the new iPad changes, the iPad
(22:46):
multitasking changes are significant, all encompassing and has long been requested.
They make the iPad function more like a Mac and
it certainly is going to be a big improvement for
people who are relying more and more on devices like
the iPad as their main computing platform.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Hey, one of the things that we've been talking about,
we also caught up with that Ludlow earlier who was
also there about AI models and opening that up to developers.
Big deal, because we've talked with you several times about
Apple really lagging behind when it comes to artificial intelligence.
How do you see this move?
Speaker 9 (23:23):
This was a necessary move. They need to open those
underlying models in order to get developers to use Apple
intelligence and to make it a bigger competitor to the
lms from other companies. So certainly this was a necessary move.
This is another move that we had anticipated for days now.
Certainly it's going to be seen which developers are going
to want to do this. How good are these lms
(23:45):
developers really want to, you know, hitch their wagon. Two
Apple lms versus third party lms that can also run
on the company's devices, certainly to be seen.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Hey, Mark, I want to make sure we have a
little bit of a delay, so I'm going to give
our team a little bit of time to work on
resetting this connection. Once again, we're speaking with Mark German.
He's head of Global Consumer Technology, Managing editor for Global
Consumer Technology. He's joining us from our Los Angeles bureau.
Liquid Glass is the overhauled visual design for Apple's new
(24:15):
software platform. That's how the experience is being described by Apple. Mark,
what does that unveiling tell you or tell us about
the way Apple's thinking about hardware moving forward?
Speaker 9 (24:29):
In terms of Apple hardward moving forward, I think this
new glass interfaces a peak of what's to come. iOS
twenty six obviously has the liquid Glass UI, and certainly
there's going to be a lot of changes to the
iPhone for the twentieth anniversary in twenty twenty seven, and
an all glass design is going to be part of that.
And so now you'll have software and hardware that are
both glass heavy and all integrated. So I think this
(24:51):
is a driving force behind that change.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
Anything you heard from the developers that were there, Mark
that kind of were they more hopeful, were they more excited?
Were they more are like, hmm, we wanted more. I'm
just curious any kind of feedback that you've been hearing.
Speaker 9 (25:04):
I think developers like the story Apple told. I think
developers like the integration of large language models into Excode
for programming. I think developers are excited about the iPad
multitasking changes as I am. I think developers are excited
about the new three D web browser review and the
Vision pro and the widgets and the like. So I
think there's a lot to like if you are a
deep user of the Apple platforms. But remember we're talking
(25:27):
about legacy platforms here. We're talking about operating system franchises
that have existed for decades. But we're not talking about
are new interface paradigms, new operating systems, artificial intelligence because
quite frankly, Apple didn't have any of that to show today.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
Yes, Okay, that's what I wanted to hit on, Mark,
is what we still haven't seen from Apple when it
comes to AI. You've long documented the struggles that the
company has had. Everybody should go read your reporting on this.
Did we get anything from Apple on AI today?
Speaker 9 (25:55):
Apple is perfecting its past. It's not perfecting or setting
the ground work for its future. And that is a
scary thing.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Maybe that's why we saw shares do what they did today, Carol,
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
I mean, folksres but.
Speaker 9 (26:10):
Well, they didn't send anything to lower They didn't say
anything to drive shares down or up. They just didn't
show anything remarkably innovative and exciting. You know, investors are
looking for all the AI buzzwords. They're looking for AI innovation.
You've seen it from Google, Open Ai, anthropic, Microsoft Meta,
You've not seen it from Apple.
Speaker 4 (26:28):
Yeah, it was about a three percent swinging today up
as much as a one percent, down almost two percent,
and finishing the day down about one point two percent.
Here all right, Mark, glad we could check in with you. Yeah,
Mark laid it out for us really ahead of the event,
but just go to get him to weigh in kind
of afterwards. Mark Germitt, he's Bloomberg News Managing editor for
(26:50):
Global Consumer Tech. Out there in our la era.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
Just reading the highlights from our live blog, the iPhone
getting revamped, iPhone and camera apps that focus on simplicity,
The II futures, Oh Carol underwhelming.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Catch
us Live weekday afternoons from two to five East. During
that listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg
Business app, or watch us Live on YouTube.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
We also continue to monitor different things that come out
of the White House, and they certainly have made some
comments when it comes to healthcare pharmaceuticals in the United States,
which is one of the reasons we want to really
get to our next guest, good X good RX. I
should say they recently reported earnings. Just a little bit
of background. Shares did jump after the price the drug
pricing comparison software company.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
They did boost their.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Guidance for just a Ibada for the full year, falling
better than expected results for the first quarter. We did
see analysts saying, some of them that the EBITDA beat
and raised as a good start to twenty twenty five
for the company. Let's get into the business and how
White House policies are impacting good OURX Wendy Barnes is
president CEO of the company. She joins us from Charlotte,
(27:58):
North Carolina company. By the way, Markey kappav at at
one point four billion shares two a year to date,
or down about twelve percent. They're down more than fifty
percent though in the past year. Wendy, good to have
you here with us. There's a lot going on in
your space, but I want to talk first and start
with a new initiative that you guys have actually introduced today.
(28:19):
It's called the Community Links program.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
Why did you do this?
Speaker 4 (28:22):
What was the impetus for creating it?
Speaker 10 (28:25):
Hi, Carol, thanks for having me appreciate the question. So
you know, I would say the company's been on a
multi year journey to best partner with retail pharmacies, with
community pharmacies really being at the top of that list,
and this is really the culmination of that work. And
so what you referenced, the good RX Community Link is
(28:48):
a portal by which community pharmacies, sometimes referred to as
independent pharmacies. So think of those as really your non
chain pharmacies. They can be as small as a single
pharmacy or some community independent pharmacy owners have fifty seventy
five or one hundred locations, but largely their run independent
(29:08):
of a broader management philosophy, and this is our effort
to contract directly with these pharmacies in a cost plus
reimbursement mechanism manner. Look, it's not any new news to
you or probably to your listeners that pharmacies continue to
be under reimbursement pressure.
Speaker 6 (29:29):
And we believe that they are key partners in our broader.
Speaker 10 (29:32):
Mission to make medications more affordable and accessible for every American.
And so this effort is really one in which we're
trying to bolster reimbursement for those independent pharmacies such that
they can work with us directly. And in addition to that,
we're giving them access to ninety plus brand deals that
we have secured with pharmaceutical manufacturers over the last twelve
(29:56):
to twenty four months, and those continue to grow. The
reimbursement on those same drugs is favorable to those pharmacies.
It's really no secret that pharmacies have long struggled to
have a favorable margin profile on many brands that they fill,
and this two gives access to those programs for those
(30:16):
independent pharmacies.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
Well when they anecdotally speaking, as the large pharmacies and
the chains have come under pressure, whether it's over store
closures or different things happening just in the space we've
all reported on what's happened in cities and the way
that some of these pharmacies have closed down in certain cities.
Are you seeing more people go to these independent pharmacies?
(30:39):
I mean, anecdotally speaking, I can say that certainly the
way my family has changed its behavior just thanks to
availability and what pharmacies tend to actually have what we're
looking for. But how have you seen that affect the
overall landscape.
Speaker 10 (30:53):
I don't know that we've seen a meaningful shift to
independent from chain. I think there's still a pretty good
of grosser versus independent versus chain, and candidly, you know,
mail order slash digital pharmacy. I think at the end
of the day, what we see is in the seventy
plus odd thousand pharmacy options that we have as consumers
(31:14):
in the US that as a consumer, you just really
want to get your drugs on your own terms, whether
it's mail to your home with your preferred community pharmacist,
or at a chain or grosser. And we pride ourselves
on working really with all pharmacy such that you can
get your drugs when and where you know you desire
to do so.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
Do you see it all that the independent channel is shrinking.
We've certainly seen it with some of the big pharmacy chains, right,
We've talked about it, You've seen the headlines. But I'm
just curious when it comes to independence, Wendy, do you
see any shrinkage in terms of the number of outlets
that are out There are no, you.
Speaker 10 (31:51):
Know, I will say in the numbers that we've looked
at over the last couple of years, there are still
a good number opening in any given month. I will
say in our book, with the pharmacies that we work with,
I haven't seen significant trinkage. But I think there are
certainly other data sources that would suggest that there are
a number of independent and or community pharmacies that are
closing in or selling their business to other owners.
Speaker 6 (32:15):
But in our particular book, it's held pretty study.
Speaker 3 (32:19):
How have independence traditionally reacted to the program at GoodRx,
because it's our understand they've been a little skeptical about it.
How do you make sure that they're embracing it rather
than treating it with skepticism.
Speaker 10 (32:30):
Sure, well, I think you know, look, it's early days
to be clear, and we're going to be on a
journey here. Communication is going to be the biggest part
of this program, in addition to delivering what we said
we intend to deliver, which is fair economics over the
course of these contractual agreements as pharmacies agree to contract
with this directly, and that again can all be conveyed
(32:53):
through that portal that we stood up this morning. So
for me, it's really going to be about how we
deliver on the reimbursement mechanism through this partnership, and I think,
you know, the ongoing communication will support how the pharmacy
community embraces this over time. You know, we've certainly been
setting out communications early on. We've been in dialogue with
(33:15):
many independent pharmacy owners to speak through the program. But
I think at the end of the day, it's really
going to be the outcome of the program and the
economics that we deliver that we'll prove it out over time.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Well, that's where I want to kind of just dig
a little bit deeper, Wendy. You know, for this to
work for you guys, this new role out this community
links program. The economics have to work right for the
independent pharmacy. So I'm just curious what you can tell
us how the economics are different for the pharmacy that
directly contacts with GoodRx versus using maybe one of the
(33:45):
pharmacy benefit managers the PBMs and their networks to dispense
a prescription. What can you tell us more specifically about
the economic advantage for independent pharmacies to use your route
versus going to the PBMs.
Speaker 6 (34:00):
Sure happy to do so. So it's really the agreement
directly with us is.
Speaker 10 (34:05):
Rooted on a NADAK plus reimbursement. So NADAK is one
of multiple benchmarks that is effectively a cost mechanism. It
stands for National average drug acquisition cost, and we are
negotiating with independent pharmacies to do this with that predicated
as the baseline, plus an amount that keeps them profitable
(34:25):
on filling these claims.
Speaker 6 (34:27):
So that's really the precursor, if.
Speaker 10 (34:30):
You will, and or the meat of how this agreement
will work, which again provides favorable economics to these pharmacies.
The distinction, Carol, as you called out to perhaps doing
it through a larger payer when you think about how
it works through let's just say a larger PDM. There
are multiple patient pay slash cash networks through which an
(34:52):
independent pharmacy can participate. And when they're in that type
of an algorithm, for lack of better description, typically.
Speaker 6 (35:00):
Going to search for.
Speaker 10 (35:03):
Not necessarily favorable margin for the pharmacy, and so there
would be times in their previous arrangement whereby they may
not always have favorable economics to fill those prescriptions. And
by contracting directly, we are putting terms and conditions in
the agreement that allow them to have certainty around not
only the reimbursement, but also access to drugs that they're
(35:25):
not fulfilling today in patient pay programs. Again, that would
be the list of brands that I mentioned that I
believe are ninety plus at this point. But they're going
to have certainty around how they're reimbursed in this direct
engagement through us that they're not getting through their arrangements today.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Hey, Wendy, we're watching everything happening outside of Washington and
coming out of Washington really closely. We're expected to hear
from the President in just a few minutes. There's an
event happening in the Oval Office that's about a kid
account event scheduled. It was scheduled for two pm. We
understand the presspool has gathered. If the President starts to
take questions, we will certainly go there. In the meantime,
(36:03):
thinking about healthcare in the United States, it is inextricably
bound to politics, and no question, if what the President
calls the Big Beautiful Bill were to pass, we could see,
at least according to the CBO estimates of a dramatic
increase in the number of uninsured almost eight million. What
does that mean for your business and how much of
(36:25):
your business comes from medicaid and uninsured people today?
Speaker 10 (36:28):
So interestingly, of the users who access our pricing on
any given day, roughly ninety percent actually have insurance today.
So I think there's a bit of a misperception that
the overwhelming number of consumers who use us in fact
don't have insurance, which is not the case. Having said that,
(36:49):
who does come and look for pricing through our different
platforms is your consumer who's motivated to check for.
Speaker 6 (36:56):
Competitive pricing, whether they have insurance or not.
Speaker 10 (37:00):
And we continue to be the number one platform to
look for the best price deal that you can find
on any particular medication. So as it pertains to what
may or may not pass in the bill, whether it's
inclusive of Medicaid cuts which continue to be advanced, and
or other cuts that would put pressure on your typical
(37:21):
household income. What we do know is that those should
produce tailwinds for us as a business, for consumers, whether
they're insured or not, but specifically as it relates to
Medicaid cuts and the number of individuals that may fall
out of coverage, we do believe that that presents an
opportunity for us to continue to support any American that
(37:44):
really is struggling to purchase their medications.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
Wendy, just got thirty seconds. You know, the word that
we all use to describe the environment right now is uncertain.
There's a lot coming out, certainly leaders and CEOs. Just
in your industry too. You've got write aid, do a bankruptcy,
you know, I think about the macro within your business
and just macro overall. Just got about twenty five seconds.
How do you look at the outlook?
Speaker 5 (38:08):
Just quickly?
Speaker 6 (38:10):
You know the outlook? You're right, turbulent is a fair description.
Speaker 10 (38:15):
Having said that, businesses that stay the course and have
a mission that makes sense for the consumers in which
we serve will continue to thrive. And our goal, of course,
is getting medication affordably and effectively into the hands of
every American.
Speaker 6 (38:29):
You need it, and we believe will be in a
position to take advantage.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
Wendy Barnes, President CEO of GoodRx.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify,
and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday
afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot Com,
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(38:56):
and always on the Bloomberg terminal
Speaker 8 (39:03):
Ver
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