May 23, 2025 • 34 mins
The US has a new federal law protecting victims of nonconsensual online porn, reflecting the ubiquity of AI-enabled harassment. What’s a parent to do? In this episode of the Levittown podcast, hosts Olivia Carville and Margi Murphy hear from one mother whose daughter pushed for laws and accountability … and another who discovers her son is part of a gang of online harassers.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A quick note before we start that this series explores
sexualized imagery involving miners and violence. Please take care when listening. Hey,
I'm Olivia Carvill and I'm Maggie Murphy. We're the hosts
(00:21):
of Levettown, a podcast series that explored the explosion of
deep fake pornography in US high schools, and we're back
in the studio for an update episode. We're here to
tell you about a long awaited crackdown on deep fake
pawn and to hear from parents who have dealt with
(00:42):
this kind of cyber harassment firsthand. One is the mother
of a victim, the other is the mother of a perpetrator.
But first the news.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
The President sat to sign the bipartisan Take It Down
at which would help combat, say actually explosit online materials
sometimes generated by ai.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
US lawmakers have passed the Take It Down Act, the
first federal legislation to lay out away for teens and
young women to get non consensual pornography scrubbed of social media.
The legislation also criminalizes publishing, or even threatening to publish
(01:26):
revenge porn or deep fake images. Today, it's my honor
to officially sign the Take It Down Act into law,
this big thing, very important, so horrible.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
If you've already listened to the series, you'll know that
things played out in Levittown the way they did largely
because there was no law on the books at the
state or federal level to address deep fake porn. The
new federal law has its fans and its critics, and
if you want to hear more about specifically what's in it,
you can listen to a previous episode. But this episode,
(01:57):
we're going to hear from a parent whose daughter was
involved in wishing for this legislation after deep faked images
of her were shared at her school. And we're also
going to hear from another parent, one whose child has
been on the opposite side of this harassment and who
has harmed others. It's every parent's nightmare to think that
(02:17):
their child could be a victim of deep fake pornography,
of a long, intimidating campaign of cyber harassment. But what
if you learned that your child was a perpetrator of
a crime like this, That the child you nurtured and
cared for not only created non consensual pornographic images of
girls they knew from school, but they continue to harass
(02:38):
them over the course of several years, all while hiding
their identity online. What if you found out this was
happening only when the police knocked on your door with
a search warrant.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I hid a glimpse of something that was absolutely horrible.
In if it wasn't for the fake my son was involved,
I still wouldn't even know about it. And parents need
to know. You know, this needs to get sorted out.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
This is the mother of a young man who was
accused of the kind of online harassment we covered in
our series. She wanted to remain anonymous because she feared
speaking out publicly could impact her career in safety. So
we've agreed not to identify her or her son and
will refer to her using a pseudonym, Barbara. She went
(03:24):
through a lot with her son, and she said she
thought it might help others to hear about it. Barbara
says that when her son was young, she thought that
she was lucky to have a happy child who was
pretty adaptable pre puberty.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
He was literally an all round it really he loved
a lot of different things. He had a lot of
my characteristics, so we related. Well, he's quite creative, it
was extremely companionable, just a lovely young boy.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
But over time things changed.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
He developed some mental health issues as he approached puberty,
and was quite a dramatic change, very very sudden.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
She noticed her son pulling away from sports, school and
his social life. To her, something knocked him off course,
effectively driving him into isolation.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
The serious social withdrawal started to kick in and of
his depression, and.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
That was difficult.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
So it went from a child who was participating in
things to a teenager who refused to participate in It
was like black and white. And started to have some
negative comments about school as well, about his teachers or
about not enjoying subjects. It can't be bothered. Also, a
thing that I had noticed with him was that, unlike
(04:49):
kids of my friends, he had no vision of his future.
And I saw this teenager who refused to take any
opportunities and had no vision of what he wanted to do.
So there was, you know, so started to get quite worried.
I was concerned enough about it even then that I
(05:11):
did talk to a counselor was there anything I could do.
I remember being told that because I was an awesome mother,
I was a great role model and I didn't have
to worry about anything. It is really one of the
things that sticks in my throat. It's clearly things went
pretty pear shaped, and I'm not going to go into
(05:31):
the details because so I think mental health and mental illness,
they don't come and neat little boxes.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Anyway, Barbara was a pretty tech savvy mum, and there
were always computers in their home. She didn't think much
of her son using technology too, like playing Harry Potter
video games, but as he got older, she noticed he
spent more time online and he began making friends there too.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
In hindsight, there were some influences that started to come
into the house. I will describe it in general terms.
So if you're a parent and you've got a son
and they're having a sex life in their bedrooms, locked
up with the curtains drawn, and that you can't not
know that's happening. There's signs of that. So that had
(06:23):
been going on for a long time. But I thought
it was consensual, you know, modern online relationships, because he
told me by that time about real relationships that he
believed were real. So I was aware that he was
having an online thing. So though I wasn't expecting this
other aspect, but I had warned him about things that
(06:43):
can happen online. You know, these are things you need
to be really careful about because people can get groomed
and sucked into, you know stuff. You know. I tried
to explain to him seriously, and he's just like, fuck
you go away, Mom. What do you know?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Can you recall the moment when you learned that your
son was harassing women online with doctored graphic images.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
A bunch of investigators and police turned up with a
search warrant. It was might have been a week end
or after work. I was outside cleaning up with a
wheelbarrow in a rake or something like that. I locked
up on it. It's just this array of police and
playing clothes investigators at my gate, and a female detective
came to speak to me, show me that there was
(07:32):
a search warrant.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
They asked if he lived here, where was he in
the house. So I guess I was shocked, but I
wasn't one hundred percent surprised, because I'd been really concerned
about my son with the illness, and because I knew
that I didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Can you characterize what you were told that he had
been doing? Why the police were investigating him.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
That came in with a warrant and some babework. They
left it on the bench top. I just read the
front page had some charges on it, and I remember
its like I think a lot of it was like
online harm. Later, because he was having difficulty dealing with
(08:25):
the lawyers. The lawyers are having difficulty because it's a
new area. I thought, well, I'm going to have to
have a closer look here, and I'm going to have
to help. The lawyer had a massive file, and then
I saw all the stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
All Barbara knew were the charges brought against her son.
He wasn't willing to talk then about what he'd been
accused of. We asked if he would be open to
speaking to us, and he declined. But looking at the
online images the investigators had collected, this was the moment
that Barbara realized what her son had been up to
alone in his bedroom.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
We're back with Barbara, who's taking her first look at
the images that showed her what her son was doing online.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And there was all these men, all these dick pictures
were just like erect Penis's water War. Guys taking photos
of themselves in front of their computer and then interacting
somehow and this begang of other men and then they
were talking just disgusting things about what they wanted to
(09:46):
do to various females. Honestly, I had no clues that
there was these kind of porn sits. To me, it
seemed like a virtual, kind of a gang rate scenario.
That's how a me imediately perceived it. Oh, my son
has been groomed into this stuff for the lese like
(10:06):
guys in their thirties forties. Not just young boys. These
are adult men out there saying hey, you know you're
one of us.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
As Olivia and I learned through our reporting, there are
many places for non consensual pornographers to post their creations,
places where they get a boost from likes and comments
from other men.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Tell us what you'd like to do to this woman,
or show us a woman that we can make comments about,
or whatever. Post pictures of you. You know, you're Jenna
Talior on the computer, and I what the hell? It's
never been something that my generation. It's just like it's
(10:50):
just completely wouldn't even imagine it.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Barbara says she hates when she hears the police talk
about lone wolves committing these kinds of crimes. It bothers
her when people suggest that the perpetrators are introverted acting alone,
because that's not how she sees it.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
That's a gang activity. My son wasn't there alone. He
was getting pumped up by mass testosterone, fueled by thousands
of men around the world telling him he was the greatest.
It's not just one fifteen year old inventing all of us.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
She knows all about this world now, but it's not
something she was aware of before her son's arrest. And
she's frustrated that the people she hired to help her
son didn't flag this as a possible issue.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
And I've just been through years of talking to psychologists, psychiatrists.
My son's been assessed and reassessed and reassessed and reassessed
for years. Why didn't it come up? So I have
a lot of questions about it, a lot of questions
about those unknown harms.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You know, has your son been willing to talk to
you about what he was accused of?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Largely No. At the start, he just denied everything, just
denied everything for a long time. And that's when I
realized the extend of the problem. I suppose before that
I really trusted him. I thought we had a good relationship,
and so I went through a period of feeling utterly
betrayed and heartbroken basically for quite some time. It's irrepearable
(12:27):
because this goes against my entire values, you know, values,
everything that I've lived in my life to support women,
encourage women, back women, and stand up to bullying and
all that kind of thing. I just saw this as
such some horrible monster that had come into my house
without my permission.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
But Barbara says over time she started to look at
the situation differently.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
And then I started to see him not as a criminal,
but as a very vulnerable lesson, really struggling with his identity,
with his social life, with his sexual development and stuff,
and being just fucked into this because he didn't, you know,
because of the state of his mind. Basically he was
very vulnerable to it. I told my son this recently.
(13:18):
This is a problem of male behavior, and it must
be solved by men. Women aren't going to solve this problem. Mums,
Angry mums aren't going to solve the problem men that
have been through it. They're going to have to figure
out how they got into it. Look at the damage
its cause to others and to themselves, and then they're
(13:41):
going to have to figure out a solution. I think
that's the only way that that harm can be addressed.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Really. I know you've spoken about him being up in
his room and the vacuum that these groups failed for
fear sung, but are there any other warding signs that
you might tell parents to look out for.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Yeah, I wrote down a list of them. So a
lack of friends in the real world, the amount of
time spent online, that it is an all consuming, all
consuming thing, pulling the curtains in shades, locking the door
as a routine procedure to set themselves up for maximum privacy,
(14:23):
having a printer installed in the bedroom suddenly when maybe
they don't need it for work. There could be like
little tiny things on their own as a one off.
You might not think anything of them, but I think
it's like scigns of addiction that that world becomes more
(14:45):
real to them, so it affects their relationships in the home.
They start to be rude, not listening to other people,
that aggression that sort of like almost a hostility. Don't
come near my world.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
With the evolution of technology at the moment, we're just
seeing such an advance in what's available. Even since the
experience that you've described, technology has moved incredibly quickly, and
images that these men in these networks were using and
(15:20):
taking hours to alter now takes minutes. And there's newdify
apps that produce fake moods and moments. Can you imagine
your son scenario but with today's technological ease of creating
that fake porn? How do you think that would have
played out? And also how troubling do you think that
(15:43):
this technology is just so easily available to young men
all around the world right now?
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So I think either these sites need to not exist,
or if they do exist, so we need to restrict excess.
And I think parents have to be able to do that.
In at the moment, you can't because there's this whole
kind of ethos about, oh, we're training and teaching our
(16:10):
young people to make good choices, and so you should
stand back and let them make good choices. I just
think that's utter rubbish because they can't. They have no idea,
and they don't listen to the appearance or to anybody,
So you're not going to make good choices. We can't
just step back because too many of them are falling
(16:33):
into this abyss.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
It's interesting you talk about restrictions because there's a real
range of parenting philosophy over how to protect young people
from dangers online. And on one side you have parents
who advocate for withholding devices completely. Then you've got others
who are making rules like okay in communal areas the
living room, but not the bedroom. And then on the
(16:59):
other end have parents who say tech is going to
be here forever. Now, you can't stop children from using it,
but what we can do is just talk to them
about it. Where do you come down in that spectrum?
Speaker 4 (17:14):
I definitely like just having a rule around those bedrooms.
Do not allow teenagers to set up their bedrooms as
a fortress where no one can see in, no one
can come in, and they sort of develop an arrogant
attitude of saying that their parents don't even have the
right to know what's happening in there. I think that's
(17:35):
a real danger zone. To me, that is one thing
that I could have actually controlled that better, but I
would have had to fight about It wouldn't have been easy.
So I think parents are going to have to be
very strong about about this, and there's going to be
a lot of pushback, so I don't think there's going
to be I don't have any hope that there's going
(17:57):
to be a quick or fast fix for it. I
think we have to really raise awareness at the moment,
really really raise awareness to a lot of parents, to
a lot of community leaders, and anyone involved in supporting
youth in any way.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Great, Well, it's so appreciate you being so candid and
sharing that, and I think a lot of people will
find it incredibly enlightening and helpful.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
So thank you from me as well. I really am
so happy, i will burst into tears. So you know,
I've had the world on my shoulders with dealing with this,
and you know, I'm extremely grateful to take this opportunity
to tell it how it is because I think it's
(18:50):
such a problem.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
After the break, obviously, the second step after calling the school,
it's calling your lawyer to find out, you know, whither
are your rates? So we've been informed or no regulations,
no legislation globally at that point. So as soon as
Francisca came back the day off, she told me, Mom,
I want a law I need you to help me
(19:14):
to find a law.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Of course, parents of young women have also been struggling,
struggling to figure out how to prevent their daughters from
falling victim to deep fake pornography and struggling with how
to adequately protect them from the dangers of the digital world.
We spoke to one mother, Derota Manny, from New Jersey,
(19:48):
whose daughter was deep fated while she was a fourteen
year old at Westfield High School, and she decided to
fight back.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Francesca has been confirmed to be one of many AA
victims of deep fake pornography at Westfield High School in
New Jersey, and ever since we have been advocating for
regulation and legislation and just AI authority in general.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
De Rooda Manny and her daughter were just in Washington,
DC in the Rose Garden of the White House where
President Donald Trump signed the Take It Down Act.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
With us are several other brave Americans whose lives were
rocked by online harassment, including Francesca Manny.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
De Oda Manny describes herself as an entrepreneur, an educator,
and now an advocate for deep fake pawn survivors. What
she's not, she says, is someone who was ever looking
to get tangled up in politics.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
We live very comfortable life, surrounded by two dogs, two cards.
We go for walks, we travel a lot, we hike,
we kayak. We don't need to be in CNN, or
in New York Times or god knows where else. This
is not our prerogative, So that spitlight was put on
us without our consent and without our knowledge.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Deeroda says that in October twenty twenty three, when Francisca
was a sophomore, she learned that deep fake porn images
of her were being sheered among her male classmates on Snapchat.
Francisca was one of several girls at her school who
were targeted. At first, Deoda says this came as a
(21:34):
shock for her daughter, but that quickly turned to anger.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
So, you know, immediately when she found out, she texted me,
then she called me, and I know everybody expected she
would be crying. No, she was just shocked. Multiple of
girls crying on the hallways. I mean, it was a
havoc during that time in the high school, and some
boys were pointing at them and making fun of and
(22:00):
that's when she stopped and she said, you know, I
shouldn't be crying. I should be mad. There's nothing to
be said about. I should be mad about what has
happened to us girls.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
De Roda was mad too, once she fully understood the
gravity of what had happened when she answered that first
call from her daughter that day. She'd heard about deep fakes,
but only in the political realm. She knew that sometimes CEOs,
lawmakers or celebrities had been targeted, but high school girls
(22:33):
being undressed with AI never And.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
When I said, can you please explain it to me?
What does that mean? She said, Well, there's a technology
when you can just undress girls, so you can take
any picture, and with a click of a button, sometimes free,
sometimes for nine niner cents, sometimes for five dollars, depending
on the side, you will be able to undress that woman, girl, boy, anyone.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I mean, that sounds like a nightmare scenario for any parent.
And Deeroda, what did you decide to do next as
a mother, as a parent, what did you do?
Speaker 6 (23:07):
So?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
When Francisca came back home that evening, she has been
pissed because her school suggests that there's nothing they can
do to the perpetrators, she said, well, what about the
code of conduct? You have it? They said, well, but
they're not AI lost, so we can't really apply it.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
The school did have a harassment, intimidation and anti bullying
policy that applied to technology, but Deoda says it was outdated,
to say the least.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
When Francisca brought it home, she said, look, mom, they're
actually referring pagers and what was it with Alice Wachman.
She's like, what is a pager? What is it a Wakman?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
No one in authority seemed to have the right playbook
to respond to what had happened at Francesca's school.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Obviously, shore with a new cord war that there would
be one day suspension for one boy and that's it,
and that the school is offering counseling. So Francisca says,
I don't need your counseling. What I need is an accountability.
Their answer was there's really not much we can do
because there are no laws.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Did you feel at this point that you, you Da,
the other young woman who have been targeted in this case,
had been kind of failed in some way one.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Hundred percent failed, disappointed, offended. It's a very strong message
that we're sending to the female community in our high
school that basically says, you know you are a girl.
At some point you will wear a victim's badge, so
go for counseling. Well, screw that. Yes, this happens, and
(24:48):
it's our job to learn how to protect our image.
But it's also our job to point out that certain
behaviors are unacceptable and should not be cultivated, especially in
the place a thief a school should be.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
We reached out to Westfield High School, and the school
said that it can't comment on individual student matters or
disciplinary actions. In a statement, the school's superintendent, Raymond Gonzales,
said the incident took place outside of the school year,
but that the administration started investigating immediately in coordination with
(25:27):
local police. It also provided counseling support to the victims,
and it revised its policies to include the use of
AI and the definition of cyber bullying, and updated its
code of conduct to better address emerging digital issues. And
what about for you as a parent, as a mum
(25:48):
who watches your teenaged daughter go through this.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
You know, it's interesting. I've been asked this question over
and over and I always want to respond with, well,
how do you think it makes me feel? So I'm
going to leave it at that. But what I'm going
to say instead is instead of constantly asking any victim
of any kind of crime of how did it make
them feel, we should start asking the important questions. One
(26:14):
is why is this happening? Two is what can we
do to fix it? There's also the question of what
are the consequences of those images being showed?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Consequences like a college recruiter googling a prospective student and
stumbling across what looks like real life nudes online, or
a future boss or a future boyfriend, or really anyone
for that matter. De Rodas says she grew increasingly frustrated
(26:48):
at people in positions of power telling her not to
worry about the deep fake pornographic images of her daughter
because they're not real. To her, the problem was that
deep fakes looked real. It felt like a real crime,
even if it only occurred in the online world, and
(27:11):
even if the offline world hadn't created the laws to
criminalize it. Yet, can you talk about your own sense
of realization that this lack of any kind of regulation
or legislation to try and prevent this, that this wasn't
just a New Jersey issue. Your your realization that this
(27:32):
really was a national and actually a global issue.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Yes, So the day of the incident, we already figured
it out what is wrong because obviously the second step
after calling the school, it's calling your lawyer to find out,
you know, what.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Are your rights.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
So we've been in formed of exactly the same word.
There are no regulations, no legislation globally at that point.
So as soon as Francesca came back the day off,
she told me, Mom, I won a law. I need
you to help me to find the law. So that
set us into motion for advocacy. And I did tell her,
(28:10):
you know, I was slightly reluctant of how much of
her involvement I would like to see in this advocacy.
I said, you know, you are fourteen. You don't know
how people will react if you go full force out
there like you usually do. She's a fencer, she's been
fencing since she was six. We just came back from
a Junior Olympics, so she has that kind of focus
(28:32):
when she wants something. I said, but gan to be prepared.
Some people are going to stay on your side and
some people will be really against you. She says, I
don't care. I know I'm right. People will think what
they want to think. I know what I want.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Franchisca and Rhoda started talking to a lot of lawmakers.
One big victory for them came in early April.
Speaker 6 (28:54):
Today I stand before you as the happiest sixteen year
old girl, not because the journey has been smooth, but
because at fourteen, I chose not to wear a victim's badge. Instead,
I decided to fight for my rights and pursue the
justice so many cold impossible.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
That's Francisca. She's introducing New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy at
an event in Newark where he signed a state deep
fake law that she advocated for.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Let me again begin by thanking Francesca money for her
incredibly powerful words, for your bravery and for your advocacy.
We would not be here today without you.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Then came the signing of the Federal Take It Down
Act in Washington, DC. How do you feel about the
legislation that has been passed.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
I think it's a great step forward. It's a beginning. Unfortunately,
or fortunately, AI technology it's so complex and multifast said
and so fast piece that we will have to try
to catch up with them in terms of legisla as well.
So we need to start somewhere and then we need
to continue bettering what's already in the legislative realm. That
(30:06):
being said, I think it's also very important to point
out Francisca has been nominated part of THAI one hundred
AI Most Influential Group last wire, So we've been connected
with one of the most amazing individuals in AI realm
that are advancing climate control and education and research and medicine,
(30:32):
you name it, and that really open our eyes. So
now we strongly believe that conversation about AI cannot be
one sided. It's a holistic conversation that should include deep
fakes and ethics and legislations, but at the same time
we should simultaneously educate about the great possibilities that AI
(30:54):
provide as a tool of an advancement in their future.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
For der Rote and Francisca, this year's long advocacy crusade
isn't about vengeance against teenage boys. Some parents from Westfield
High School called for the police to press charges against
the male students who created and shared the deep fake images,
but for this mother, daughter Joo, it was about more
(31:20):
than that.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
Vengeance is not something we're looking for. We were looking
for simple This is wrong. You're worth enough to fight
for and certain things will not be tolerated. So I
think that is extremely important to talk off. We should
educate our boys, because unfortunate, it's mostly boys of how
(31:42):
not to misuse this technology instead of educating our girls
of how to protect their image. If we want this
to change and truly instigate meaningful progress, we will have
to start asking where are the boys.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's a great point and something we did delve into
in our podcast series is often this conversation stems around
the impact on the young woman, the victims, but there's
a whole nother realm to this, which is what is
going on with young men. I wonder what would you
share to the parents of young boys to try and
(32:20):
prevent this from happening at the source, to try and
guide your kids to not create deep fakes.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
That's such a good question. I would say, talk to
your boys. Yes, there are ethics in place, and there
should be certain ways that we use technology in general,
and we should do the right thing. This is the
wrong thing. But at the same time, do tell them
that it's a criminal offense, right now I know the
law that we just signed with Governor Murphy provides up
(32:47):
to five years of punishment in prison, which is huge.
Taken down, it's two to three years. Still, you know,
if you want choose to educate your children because it's
the right thing, then teach them how to protect themselves
from ending up in jail.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah. So rather than the conversation being you will upset
a friend and hurt your female friends if you do this,
it's you could be imprisoned for this. And what about
advice that you may have for parents who are watching
their children go through this.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Support your child. Know that there are tools like take
it Down that will allow you to take the image
immediately down from any website. Know your last but most importantly,
understand that there's no right and there's no wrong in
the way how you should handle the situation. Every child
is different, every family is different, every incident is different.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
I love that you started this conversation talking about how
your daughter wanted a law and that after this happened.
The day she found out about this incident, she came
to you and said, I want a law, mom, And
she got it, Yes she did. This episode is hosted
and reported by Margie Murphy and me Olivia Carvell. Jeff
(34:10):
Grocott produced this episode and Caitlin Kenney edited. Sound designed
by Blake Maples, original composition by Steve Bone thanks to
Gilda Decali, Robert Friedman and Angel Rascio. Sage Bowman is
Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Levettown is a production of Bloomberg,
(34:32):
Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts.
A quick note before we start that this series explores
sexualized imagery involving miners and violence. Please take care when listening. Hey,
I'm Olivia Carvill and I'm Maggie Murphy. We're the hosts
(00:21):
of Levettown, a podcast series that explored the explosion of
deep fake pornography in US high schools, and we're back
in the studio for an update episode. We're here to
tell you about a long awaited crackdown on deep fake
pawn and to hear from parents who have dealt with
(00:42):
this kind of cyber harassment firsthand. One is the mother
of a victim, the other is the mother of a perpetrator.
But first the news.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
The President sat to sign the bipartisan Take It Down
at which would help combat, say actually explosit online materials
sometimes generated by ai.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
US lawmakers have passed the Take It Down Act, the
first federal legislation to lay out away for teens and
young women to get non consensual pornography scrubbed of social media.
The legislation also criminalizes publishing, or even threatening to publish
(01:26):
revenge porn or deep fake images. Today, it's my honor
to officially sign the Take It Down Act into law,
this big thing, very important, so horrible.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
If you've already listened to the series, you'll know that
things played out in Levittown the way they did largely
because there was no law on the books at the
state or federal level to address deep fake porn. The
new federal law has its fans and its critics, and
if you want to hear more about specifically what's in it,
you can listen to a previous episode. But this episode,
(01:57):
we're going to hear from a parent whose daughter was
involved in wishing for this legislation after deep faked images
of her were shared at her school. And we're also
going to hear from another parent, one whose child has
been on the opposite side of this harassment and who
has harmed others. It's every parent's nightmare to think that
(02:17):
their child could be a victim of deep fake pornography,
of a long, intimidating campaign of cyber harassment. But what
if you learned that your child was a perpetrator of
a crime like this, That the child you nurtured and
cared for not only created non consensual pornographic images of
girls they knew from school, but they continue to harass
(02:38):
them over the course of several years, all while hiding
their identity online. What if you found out this was
happening only when the police knocked on your door with
a search warrant.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
I hid a glimpse of something that was absolutely horrible.
In if it wasn't for the fake my son was involved,
I still wouldn't even know about it. And parents need
to know. You know, this needs to get sorted out.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
This is the mother of a young man who was
accused of the kind of online harassment we covered in
our series. She wanted to remain anonymous because she feared
speaking out publicly could impact her career in safety. So
we've agreed not to identify her or her son and
will refer to her using a pseudonym, Barbara. She went
(03:24):
through a lot with her son, and she said she
thought it might help others to hear about it. Barbara
says that when her son was young, she thought that
she was lucky to have a happy child who was
pretty adaptable pre puberty.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
He was literally an all round it really he loved
a lot of different things. He had a lot of
my characteristics, so we related. Well, he's quite creative, it
was extremely companionable, just a lovely young boy.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
But over time things changed.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
He developed some mental health issues as he approached puberty,
and was quite a dramatic change, very very sudden.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
She noticed her son pulling away from sports, school and
his social life. To her, something knocked him off course,
effectively driving him into isolation.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
The serious social withdrawal started to kick in and of
his depression, and.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
That was difficult.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
So it went from a child who was participating in
things to a teenager who refused to participate in It
was like black and white. And started to have some
negative comments about school as well, about his teachers or
about not enjoying subjects. It can't be bothered. Also, a
thing that I had noticed with him was that, unlike
(04:49):
kids of my friends, he had no vision of his future.
And I saw this teenager who refused to take any
opportunities and had no vision of what he wanted to do.
So there was, you know, so started to get quite worried.
I was concerned enough about it even then that I
(05:11):
did talk to a counselor was there anything I could do.
I remember being told that because I was an awesome mother,
I was a great role model and I didn't have
to worry about anything. It is really one of the
things that sticks in my throat. It's clearly things went
pretty pear shaped, and I'm not going to go into
(05:31):
the details because so I think mental health and mental illness,
they don't come and neat little boxes.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Anyway, Barbara was a pretty tech savvy mum, and there
were always computers in their home. She didn't think much
of her son using technology too, like playing Harry Potter
video games, but as he got older, she noticed he
spent more time online and he began making friends there too.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
In hindsight, there were some influences that started to come
into the house. I will describe it in general terms.
So if you're a parent and you've got a son
and they're having a sex life in their bedrooms, locked
up with the curtains drawn, and that you can't not
know that's happening. There's signs of that. So that had
(06:23):
been going on for a long time. But I thought
it was consensual, you know, modern online relationships, because he
told me by that time about real relationships that he
believed were real. So I was aware that he was
having an online thing. So though I wasn't expecting this
other aspect, but I had warned him about things that
(06:43):
can happen online. You know, these are things you need
to be really careful about because people can get groomed
and sucked into, you know stuff. You know. I tried
to explain to him seriously, and he's just like, fuck
you go away, Mom. What do you know?
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Can you recall the moment when you learned that your
son was harassing women online with doctored graphic images.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
A bunch of investigators and police turned up with a
search warrant. It was might have been a week end
or after work. I was outside cleaning up with a
wheelbarrow in a rake or something like that. I locked
up on it. It's just this array of police and
playing clothes investigators at my gate, and a female detective
came to speak to me, show me that there was
(07:32):
a search warrant.
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
They asked if he lived here, where was he in
the house. So I guess I was shocked, but I
wasn't one hundred percent surprised, because I'd been really concerned
about my son with the illness, and because I knew
that I didn't know what he was doing.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Can you characterize what you were told that he had
been doing? Why the police were investigating him.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
That came in with a warrant and some babework. They
left it on the bench top. I just read the
front page had some charges on it, and I remember
its like I think a lot of it was like
online harm. Later, because he was having difficulty dealing with
(08:25):
the lawyers. The lawyers are having difficulty because it's a
new area. I thought, well, I'm going to have to
have a closer look here, and I'm going to have
to help. The lawyer had a massive file, and then
I saw all the stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
All Barbara knew were the charges brought against her son.
He wasn't willing to talk then about what he'd been
accused of. We asked if he would be open to
speaking to us, and he declined. But looking at the
online images the investigators had collected, this was the moment
that Barbara realized what her son had been up to
alone in his bedroom.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
We're back with Barbara, who's taking her first look at
the images that showed her what her son was doing online.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
And there was all these men, all these dick pictures
were just like erect Penis's water War. Guys taking photos
of themselves in front of their computer and then interacting
somehow and this begang of other men and then they
were talking just disgusting things about what they wanted to
(09:46):
do to various females. Honestly, I had no clues that
there was these kind of porn sits. To me, it
seemed like a virtual, kind of a gang rate scenario.
That's how a me imediately perceived it. Oh, my son
has been groomed into this stuff for the lese like
(10:06):
guys in their thirties forties. Not just young boys. These
are adult men out there saying hey, you know you're
one of us.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
As Olivia and I learned through our reporting, there are
many places for non consensual pornographers to post their creations,
places where they get a boost from likes and comments
from other men.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
Tell us what you'd like to do to this woman,
or show us a woman that we can make comments about,
or whatever. Post pictures of you. You know, you're Jenna
Talior on the computer, and I what the hell? It's
never been something that my generation. It's just like it's
(10:50):
just completely wouldn't even imagine it.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Barbara says she hates when she hears the police talk
about lone wolves committing these kinds of crimes. It bothers
her when people suggest that the perpetrators are introverted acting alone,
because that's not how she sees it.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
That's a gang activity. My son wasn't there alone. He
was getting pumped up by mass testosterone, fueled by thousands
of men around the world telling him he was the greatest.
It's not just one fifteen year old inventing all of us.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
She knows all about this world now, but it's not
something she was aware of before her son's arrest. And
she's frustrated that the people she hired to help her
son didn't flag this as a possible issue.
Speaker 4 (11:34):
And I've just been through years of talking to psychologists, psychiatrists.
My son's been assessed and reassessed and reassessed and reassessed
for years. Why didn't it come up? So I have
a lot of questions about it, a lot of questions
about those unknown harms.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
You know, has your son been willing to talk to
you about what he was accused of?
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Largely No. At the start, he just denied everything, just
denied everything for a long time. And that's when I
realized the extend of the problem. I suppose before that
I really trusted him. I thought we had a good relationship,
and so I went through a period of feeling utterly
betrayed and heartbroken basically for quite some time. It's irrepearable
(12:27):
because this goes against my entire values, you know, values,
everything that I've lived in my life to support women,
encourage women, back women, and stand up to bullying and
all that kind of thing. I just saw this as
such some horrible monster that had come into my house
without my permission.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
But Barbara says over time she started to look at
the situation differently.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
And then I started to see him not as a criminal,
but as a very vulnerable lesson, really struggling with his identity,
with his social life, with his sexual development and stuff,
and being just fucked into this because he didn't, you know,
because of the state of his mind. Basically he was
very vulnerable to it. I told my son this recently.
(13:18):
This is a problem of male behavior, and it must
be solved by men. Women aren't going to solve this problem. Mums,
Angry mums aren't going to solve the problem men that
have been through it. They're going to have to figure
out how they got into it. Look at the damage
its cause to others and to themselves, and then they're
(13:41):
going to have to figure out a solution. I think
that's the only way that that harm can be addressed.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
Really. I know you've spoken about him being up in
his room and the vacuum that these groups failed for
fear sung, but are there any other warding signs that
you might tell parents to look out for.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
Yeah, I wrote down a list of them. So a
lack of friends in the real world, the amount of
time spent online, that it is an all consuming, all
consuming thing, pulling the curtains in shades, locking the door
as a routine procedure to set themselves up for maximum privacy,
(14:23):
having a printer installed in the bedroom suddenly when maybe
they don't need it for work. There could be like
little tiny things on their own as a one off.
You might not think anything of them, but I think
it's like scigns of addiction that that world becomes more
(14:45):
real to them, so it affects their relationships in the home.
They start to be rude, not listening to other people,
that aggression that sort of like almost a hostility. Don't
come near my world.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
With the evolution of technology at the moment, we're just
seeing such an advance in what's available. Even since the
experience that you've described, technology has moved incredibly quickly, and
images that these men in these networks were using and
(15:20):
taking hours to alter now takes minutes. And there's newdify
apps that produce fake moods and moments. Can you imagine
your son scenario but with today's technological ease of creating
that fake porn? How do you think that would have
played out? And also how troubling do you think that
(15:43):
this technology is just so easily available to young men
all around the world right now?
Speaker 4 (15:48):
So I think either these sites need to not exist,
or if they do exist, so we need to restrict excess.
And I think parents have to be able to do that.
In at the moment, you can't because there's this whole
kind of ethos about, oh, we're training and teaching our
(16:10):
young people to make good choices, and so you should
stand back and let them make good choices. I just
think that's utter rubbish because they can't. They have no idea,
and they don't listen to the appearance or to anybody,
So you're not going to make good choices. We can't
just step back because too many of them are falling
(16:33):
into this abyss.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
It's interesting you talk about restrictions because there's a real
range of parenting philosophy over how to protect young people
from dangers online. And on one side you have parents
who advocate for withholding devices completely. Then you've got others
who are making rules like okay in communal areas the
living room, but not the bedroom. And then on the
(16:59):
other end have parents who say tech is going to
be here forever. Now, you can't stop children from using it,
but what we can do is just talk to them
about it. Where do you come down in that spectrum?
Speaker 4 (17:14):
I definitely like just having a rule around those bedrooms.
Do not allow teenagers to set up their bedrooms as
a fortress where no one can see in, no one
can come in, and they sort of develop an arrogant
attitude of saying that their parents don't even have the
right to know what's happening in there. I think that's
(17:35):
a real danger zone. To me, that is one thing
that I could have actually controlled that better, but I
would have had to fight about It wouldn't have been easy.
So I think parents are going to have to be
very strong about about this, and there's going to be
a lot of pushback, so I don't think there's going
to be I don't have any hope that there's going
(17:57):
to be a quick or fast fix for it. I
think we have to really raise awareness at the moment,
really really raise awareness to a lot of parents, to
a lot of community leaders, and anyone involved in supporting
youth in any way.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Great, Well, it's so appreciate you being so candid and
sharing that, and I think a lot of people will
find it incredibly enlightening and helpful.
Speaker 4 (18:28):
So thank you from me as well. I really am
so happy, i will burst into tears. So you know,
I've had the world on my shoulders with dealing with this,
and you know, I'm extremely grateful to take this opportunity
to tell it how it is because I think it's
(18:50):
such a problem.
Speaker 5 (18:52):
After the break, obviously, the second step after calling the school,
it's calling your lawyer to find out, you know, whither
are your rates? So we've been informed or no regulations,
no legislation globally at that point. So as soon as
Francisca came back the day off, she told me, Mom,
I want a law I need you to help me
(19:14):
to find a law.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
Of course, parents of young women have also been struggling,
struggling to figure out how to prevent their daughters from
falling victim to deep fake pornography and struggling with how
to adequately protect them from the dangers of the digital world.
We spoke to one mother, Derota Manny, from New Jersey,
(19:48):
whose daughter was deep fated while she was a fourteen
year old at Westfield High School, and she decided to
fight back.
Speaker 5 (19:57):
Francesca has been confirmed to be one of many AA
victims of deep fake pornography at Westfield High School in
New Jersey, and ever since we have been advocating for
regulation and legislation and just AI authority in general.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
De Rooda Manny and her daughter were just in Washington,
DC in the Rose Garden of the White House where
President Donald Trump signed the Take It Down Act.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
With us are several other brave Americans whose lives were
rocked by online harassment, including Francesca Manny.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
De Oda Manny describes herself as an entrepreneur, an educator,
and now an advocate for deep fake pawn survivors. What
she's not, she says, is someone who was ever looking
to get tangled up in politics.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
We live very comfortable life, surrounded by two dogs, two cards.
We go for walks, we travel a lot, we hike,
we kayak. We don't need to be in CNN, or
in New York Times or god knows where else. This
is not our prerogative, So that spitlight was put on
us without our consent and without our knowledge.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Deeroda says that in October twenty twenty three, when Francisca
was a sophomore, she learned that deep fake porn images
of her were being sheered among her male classmates on Snapchat.
Francisca was one of several girls at her school who
were targeted. At first, Deoda says this came as a
(21:34):
shock for her daughter, but that quickly turned to anger.
Speaker 5 (21:40):
So, you know, immediately when she found out, she texted me,
then she called me, and I know everybody expected she
would be crying. No, she was just shocked. Multiple of
girls crying on the hallways. I mean, it was a
havoc during that time in the high school, and some
boys were pointing at them and making fun of and
(22:00):
that's when she stopped and she said, you know, I
shouldn't be crying. I should be mad. There's nothing to
be said about. I should be mad about what has
happened to us girls.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
De Roda was mad too, once she fully understood the
gravity of what had happened when she answered that first
call from her daughter that day. She'd heard about deep fakes,
but only in the political realm. She knew that sometimes CEOs,
lawmakers or celebrities had been targeted, but high school girls
(22:33):
being undressed with AI never And.
Speaker 5 (22:37):
When I said, can you please explain it to me?
What does that mean? She said, Well, there's a technology
when you can just undress girls, so you can take
any picture, and with a click of a button, sometimes free,
sometimes for nine niner cents, sometimes for five dollars, depending
on the side, you will be able to undress that woman, girl, boy, anyone.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
I mean, that sounds like a nightmare scenario for any parent.
And Deeroda, what did you decide to do next as
a mother, as a parent, what did you do?
Speaker 6 (23:07):
So?
Speaker 5 (23:08):
When Francisca came back home that evening, she has been
pissed because her school suggests that there's nothing they can
do to the perpetrators, she said, well, what about the
code of conduct? You have it? They said, well, but
they're not AI lost, so we can't really apply it.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
The school did have a harassment, intimidation and anti bullying
policy that applied to technology, but Deoda says it was outdated,
to say the least.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
When Francisca brought it home, she said, look, mom, they're
actually referring pagers and what was it with Alice Wachman.
She's like, what is a pager? What is it a Wakman?
Speaker 1 (23:50):
No one in authority seemed to have the right playbook
to respond to what had happened at Francesca's school.
Speaker 5 (23:58):
Obviously, shore with a new cord war that there would
be one day suspension for one boy and that's it,
and that the school is offering counseling. So Francisca says,
I don't need your counseling. What I need is an accountability.
Their answer was there's really not much we can do
because there are no laws.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Did you feel at this point that you, you Da,
the other young woman who have been targeted in this case,
had been kind of failed in some way one.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
Hundred percent failed, disappointed, offended. It's a very strong message
that we're sending to the female community in our high
school that basically says, you know you are a girl.
At some point you will wear a victim's badge, so
go for counseling. Well, screw that. Yes, this happens, and
(24:48):
it's our job to learn how to protect our image.
But it's also our job to point out that certain
behaviors are unacceptable and should not be cultivated, especially in
the place a thief a school should be.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
We reached out to Westfield High School, and the school
said that it can't comment on individual student matters or
disciplinary actions. In a statement, the school's superintendent, Raymond Gonzales,
said the incident took place outside of the school year,
but that the administration started investigating immediately in coordination with
(25:27):
local police. It also provided counseling support to the victims,
and it revised its policies to include the use of
AI and the definition of cyber bullying, and updated its
code of conduct to better address emerging digital issues. And
what about for you as a parent, as a mum
(25:48):
who watches your teenaged daughter go through this.
Speaker 5 (25:51):
You know, it's interesting. I've been asked this question over
and over and I always want to respond with, well,
how do you think it makes me feel? So I'm
going to leave it at that. But what I'm going
to say instead is instead of constantly asking any victim
of any kind of crime of how did it make
them feel, we should start asking the important questions. One
(26:14):
is why is this happening? Two is what can we
do to fix it? There's also the question of what
are the consequences of those images being showed?
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Consequences like a college recruiter googling a prospective student and
stumbling across what looks like real life nudes online, or
a future boss or a future boyfriend, or really anyone
for that matter. De Rodas says she grew increasingly frustrated
(26:48):
at people in positions of power telling her not to
worry about the deep fake pornographic images of her daughter
because they're not real. To her, the problem was that
deep fakes looked real. It felt like a real crime,
even if it only occurred in the online world, and
(27:11):
even if the offline world hadn't created the laws to
criminalize it. Yet, can you talk about your own sense
of realization that this lack of any kind of regulation
or legislation to try and prevent this, that this wasn't
just a New Jersey issue. Your your realization that this
(27:32):
really was a national and actually a global issue.
Speaker 5 (27:35):
Yes, So the day of the incident, we already figured
it out what is wrong because obviously the second step
after calling the school, it's calling your lawyer to find out,
you know, what.
Speaker 4 (27:46):
Are your rights.
Speaker 5 (27:47):
So we've been in formed of exactly the same word.
There are no regulations, no legislation globally at that point.
So as soon as Francesca came back the day off,
she told me, Mom, I won a law. I need
you to help me to find the law. So that
set us into motion for advocacy. And I did tell her,
(28:10):
you know, I was slightly reluctant of how much of
her involvement I would like to see in this advocacy.
I said, you know, you are fourteen. You don't know
how people will react if you go full force out
there like you usually do. She's a fencer, she's been
fencing since she was six. We just came back from
a Junior Olympics, so she has that kind of focus
(28:32):
when she wants something. I said, but gan to be prepared.
Some people are going to stay on your side and
some people will be really against you. She says, I
don't care. I know I'm right. People will think what
they want to think. I know what I want.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Franchisca and Rhoda started talking to a lot of lawmakers.
One big victory for them came in early April.
Speaker 6 (28:54):
Today I stand before you as the happiest sixteen year
old girl, not because the journey has been smooth, but
because at fourteen, I chose not to wear a victim's badge. Instead,
I decided to fight for my rights and pursue the
justice so many cold impossible.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
That's Francisca. She's introducing New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy at
an event in Newark where he signed a state deep
fake law that she advocated for.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Let me again begin by thanking Francesca money for her
incredibly powerful words, for your bravery and for your advocacy.
We would not be here today without you.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Then came the signing of the Federal Take It Down
Act in Washington, DC. How do you feel about the
legislation that has been passed.
Speaker 5 (29:46):
I think it's a great step forward. It's a beginning. Unfortunately,
or fortunately, AI technology it's so complex and multifast said
and so fast piece that we will have to try
to catch up with them in terms of legisla as well.
So we need to start somewhere and then we need
to continue bettering what's already in the legislative realm. That
(30:06):
being said, I think it's also very important to point
out Francisca has been nominated part of THAI one hundred
AI Most Influential Group last wire, So we've been connected
with one of the most amazing individuals in AI realm
that are advancing climate control and education and research and medicine,
(30:32):
you name it, and that really open our eyes. So
now we strongly believe that conversation about AI cannot be
one sided. It's a holistic conversation that should include deep
fakes and ethics and legislations, but at the same time
we should simultaneously educate about the great possibilities that AI
(30:54):
provide as a tool of an advancement in their future.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
For der Rote and Francisca, this year's long advocacy crusade
isn't about vengeance against teenage boys. Some parents from Westfield
High School called for the police to press charges against
the male students who created and shared the deep fake images,
but for this mother, daughter Joo, it was about more
(31:20):
than that.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
Vengeance is not something we're looking for. We were looking
for simple This is wrong. You're worth enough to fight
for and certain things will not be tolerated. So I
think that is extremely important to talk off. We should
educate our boys, because unfortunate, it's mostly boys of how
(31:42):
not to misuse this technology instead of educating our girls
of how to protect their image. If we want this
to change and truly instigate meaningful progress, we will have
to start asking where are the boys.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
That's a great point and something we did delve into
in our podcast series is often this conversation stems around
the impact on the young woman, the victims, but there's
a whole nother realm to this, which is what is
going on with young men. I wonder what would you
share to the parents of young boys to try and
(32:20):
prevent this from happening at the source, to try and
guide your kids to not create deep fakes.
Speaker 5 (32:26):
That's such a good question. I would say, talk to
your boys. Yes, there are ethics in place, and there
should be certain ways that we use technology in general,
and we should do the right thing. This is the
wrong thing. But at the same time, do tell them
that it's a criminal offense, right now I know the
law that we just signed with Governor Murphy provides up
(32:47):
to five years of punishment in prison, which is huge.
Taken down, it's two to three years. Still, you know,
if you want choose to educate your children because it's
the right thing, then teach them how to protect themselves
from ending up in jail.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah. So rather than the conversation being you will upset
a friend and hurt your female friends if you do this,
it's you could be imprisoned for this. And what about
advice that you may have for parents who are watching
their children go through this.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Support your child. Know that there are tools like take
it Down that will allow you to take the image
immediately down from any website. Know your last but most importantly,
understand that there's no right and there's no wrong in
the way how you should handle the situation. Every child
is different, every family is different, every incident is different.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
I love that you started this conversation talking about how
your daughter wanted a law and that after this happened.
The day she found out about this incident, she came
to you and said, I want a law, mom, And
she got it, Yes she did. This episode is hosted
and reported by Margie Murphy and me Olivia Carvell. Jeff
(34:10):
Grocott produced this episode and Caitlin Kenney edited. Sound designed
by Blake Maples, original composition by Steve Bone thanks to
Gilda Decali, Robert Friedman and Angel Rascio. Sage Bowman is
Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Levettown is a production of Bloomberg,
(34:32):
Kaleidoscope and iHeart Podcasts.
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