January 2, 2025 • 31 mins
Japan’s power market is creating a stir. Having faced natural disasters, global energy crises and ever more extreme periods of weather, the world’s third-largest liberalized power market has had to contend with some almighty challenges in recent years, and yet it has still piqued the interest of foreign investors. The long process of restarting Japan’s nuclear fleet, completely shuttered after the Fukushima disaster, has dragged on, and with little available land, utility-scale renewables have traditionally struggled to gain a foothold. To fill the energy void, the resource-poor nation has had to import coal, gas and oil to fuel its power plants. Yet the arrival of energy-intensive data centers and semiconductor manufacturing plants mean power demand is once again on the rise, and with it new opportunities for energy installations. On today’s show, Tom is joined by two analysts from BNEF’s Global Power Markets Team, Mariko O’Neil and Yumi Kim, to discuss key findings from the report “Japan Power Market Outlook 2H 2024: Tailwinds Ahead”.
Complementary BNEF research on the trends driving the transition to a lower-carbon economy can be found at BNEF<GO> on the Bloomberg Terminal or on bnef.com
Links to research notes from this episode:
Japan Power Market Outlook 2H 2024: Tailwinds Ahead - https://www.bnef.com/insights/34981
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is Tom Rowland's Reese and you're listening to Switched
on the BNF podcast. Today we're discussing the Japanese power market,
a market which, as one of our guests boldly claims,
could be the most important power market in the world.
Since the Fukushima disaster and its entire nuclear power fleet
being shut down, the Japanese power market has continued to
face our host of challenges, not only natural disasters, but
(00:21):
the global energy crisis and more extreme periods of weather.
To many, this may seem unattractive or too challenging, and
yet the world's third largest liberalized power market has been
attracting more attention from foreign investors than ever. While Japanese
power demand has been in decline in recent years, we
are now seeing this trend reverse with new data centers
and semiconductor manufacturing plants connecting to the grid. With these
(00:42):
comes the need for further power sources. Utility scale renewables
such as wind and solar would be a natural fit
for most in this situation, but as we are to
discuss today, land constraints and local factors opposing their own
set of challenges For these two to discuss, the Japanese
power market further. Today, I'm joined by two of BNF's
Global Power Market's Teamly it's Mariko O'Neil and Yumi Kim,
to review findings from the report Japan Power Market Outlook
(01:04):
too H twenty twenty four Tailwinds Ahead. BNF clientsill be
able to access this and other related research at BNF
go on the Bloomberg terminal and at BNF dot com. Now,
let's talk to Marico and Num about the Japanese power market.
(01:27):
So I'm joined here today by Mariko. Mariko, thank you
for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Thanks for having me, and Yumi.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Thanks a lot for inviting me too.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So we're talking about the Japanese power market. First off,
there's a lot of interest in it right now. It
seems to be a hot topic, not just in Japan
but around the power world. So why is it that
everyone's talking about Japan right now?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, good question. So this might be controversial, but I
think there's an argument to be made that the Japanese
power market might be the biggest power market in the
world never And we can get into sort of like
all the parameters of whether it is or it isn't later,
But in terms of why now, Japan has been slowly
(02:10):
but surely liberalizing its power market over the past couple
of decades, and its efforts really accelerated after twenty eleven
and when they had to remove nuclear capacity from the
grid after Fukushima. So you could say that it was
properly liberalized in twenty sixteen, and since then trading volumes
have been climbing. And given that it's an island with
no almost no natural resources and almost entirely dependent on
(02:33):
fuel imports, there's been a lot of interest sort of
across the commodities space on what's going on in the
Japanese power system.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So, actually, I mean on this topic, you both spoke
at a seminar that we held in our Tokyo office
quite recently after releasing the Japan Power Market Outlook, and
it was part of Japan Power Week, which I presume
is like a bigger thing where everyone is coming in.
So how much of the people in the room there
would you say were people who do their business in
(03:01):
Japan versus global companies.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, at the moment, it's quite a nice, almost straight
down the middle, half and half split, i'd say, of
market participants, with half of them being domestic Japanese players,
and then the other half being from everywhere from Sydney
to Singapore to Hamburg to Chicago. So that's been quite international.
One of the things about Japan having liberalized its power
(03:24):
market more recently is that those who've been involved in
the US or European power markets are looking at it
and thinking, I can play the same game or a
similar game to what I did in the US or
in Europe in Japan.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So just before we started recording, I was talking about
my cats. I adopted two kittens recently, and one of
the things that my wife said, and she'd never had cats,
was a surprise to her, is that if you didn't
know cats, you'd think they're all the same, and when
you have them, you realize they have distinct personalities. So
liberalized power markets, you know, and you mentioned that people
(04:01):
who are familiar with liberalised power markets see japan'ze here
is a power market that is becoming more like what
I'm used to. But just like a cat, the Japanese
power market must have its own personality. So what are
the characteristics that define the Japanese power market as distinct
from the others that we're used to.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
One of the things might be like geography. So, as
I mentioned, Japan is an island with no electrical interconnections
to any other country, so in that sense, it's quite
self contained. Those people who've been involved in Europe or
the US, this might be a bit different to them,
where there's a bit of interconnection between different markets. Another
thing is that it's sort of like a very long
(04:40):
and thin island, you could say, so in terms of
climate and weather, you have subarctic regions like hock Guido
in the north, all the way down to subtropical regions
like Qushu in the south, with really different climates throughout
the year, which obviously affects electricity consumption or what I
guess we call power demand. And another thing actually that
is a very particular quirk is that the grid is
(05:02):
essentially split into two. So East Japan, which is composed
of the region's hock Guide or Tohoko and Tokyo, is
on fifty hertz, and then West Japan, composed of the
six other power regions of Japan, is on sixty hurts,
and there's very little transformer capacity between the two, which
makes it sort of a tale of two cities.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
You could say, Yeah, I'd also like to add that
the fuels market in Japan is quite unique because, as
Marco said, Japan is quite important dependent. It doesn't have
a lot of natural resources within that country. So when
we look at the normal power mix in Japan, there's
almost a fifty to fifty split between call and gas,
and within those fuel technologies, there's quite complicated contract structure
(05:46):
compared to markets like Europe and US. So that's another
feature in Japan that's quite unique to the market.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
We're going to talk about that, that sort of the
complexities of the spot versus contract markets, because I think
that is something to understand the Japanese paner market you
have to really understand as much as the power dynamics.
But just generally on this point around fuels all being imported,
does that translate to relatively expensive power in Japan, then, I'd.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Say so to a certain extent. In Japan because as
we highlighted, it has to import almost all of its fuel.
That's particularly true for gas because gas prices tend to
be more expensive than cool So unlike US, where it
has a huge capacity of domestic gas procurement, like Japan
has to really quite a lot on the spot procurement
(06:32):
and also the long term contracts from other countries like
Middle East and also US, so all of that costs
is translated into higher power prices in Japan.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So we have an island kind of divided into sort
of two islands. We could say a fifty hertz and
a sixty hertz island. Could we just explain quickly for listeners,
why are there two different grids with different frequencies?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
They have a different frequency when it comes to grid
because Japan's powermark used to be dominated by nine incombine utilities,
so they used to have control over generation, transmission and
operation and also the retail side. So because it was
basically a monopoly of those nine incombineutilities, they had very
little incentive to cooperate with each other because they kept
(07:18):
control over specific power regions. But because Japan now faced
the regulation of the power markets, now obviously they have
to cooperate more. But unfortunately, because of this historical legacy
of incombine utilities, the greed system is not as holistic
as we want to be.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So we have this thin island with very diverse weather,
not a lot of its own natural resources, and relatively
expensive imported fuel, and then we know that if those
are the equations you're dealing with, maybe a logical thing
would be nuclear. And obviously nuclear has had a rollercoaster
of a story in Japan. Could you tell us where
(07:57):
we are right now? Give it maybe a little bit
of a background into the history of it, but could
you tell us what the current dynamic sell when it
relates to nuclear.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, so funny that you asked this bit. So in
twenty eleven, after the Mount Dan up for Kushuma, Japan
turned off all of its nuclear reactors for power generation,
so it went from having significant chunk of power generation
being nucleared to none and thankfully, actually there were limited
blackouts because they had pretty strong contingency plans for other
(08:26):
sources of power. But it has meant that obviously they've
substituted a lot of nuclear generation with gas and coal generation.
And since twenty eleven there's been a big effort to
restart some of the reactors. So they want to basically
check all of the nuclear reactors to make sure they're
safe to operate and in the event of anything like
an earthquake or another tsunami, there is a sufficient backup
(08:47):
plan in place to ensure everyone's safety, and they've restarted
a handful, particularly in West Japan, so I think nuclear
generation last year was just shy of ten percent of
power generation in Japan. However, they have set quite ambitious
targets for restarting the nuclear fleet, So because of its
role as sort of cheap, marginal cost and low carbon
(09:10):
source of power generation, Japan wants to have twenty to
twenty two percent of its power generation coming from nuclear
by twenty thirty. However, the process of restarting the reactors
has been really slow and riddled with delays, and actually
the first nuclear reactor in East Japan has restarted since
twenty eleven, so if you think about that, that's taken
(09:31):
over thirteen years to restart that reactor. And based on
our recent analysis, actually even if Japan were to restart
all of the reactors that have applied to its Nuclear
Regulation Authority for approval to restart, it still wouldn't hit
this twenty thirty target of having over a fifth of
its power generation coming from nuclear. So it is kind
(09:52):
of stuck in a tricky position because obviously, even if
the government would like to emphasize nuclear as a source
of clean and low cost power generation. It's extremely politically contentious,
and there's very little control of an independent regulator deciding
whether or not a reactor is safe to restart. So
that's sort of the whole pickle with nuclear power.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
That's really interesting, And I would have just thought that
in this scenario that the natural next question would be
why aren't we seeing a huge increase in the buildout
of renewables, whether it's wind or solar. Seems like a
market primed for that, But they're not. I mean, I
don't know what the numbers are. Am I right in
saying they're not actually a huge part of the film mix?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, you're right that for solar and wind products, it's
taking quite a bit of time in Japan to be developed,
and that's because of relatively high cost of development compared
to other countries. And the main reason is that Japan
there's quite a lot of mountains, so it's really difficult
to build large scale solar products, for example, within its
land and that's why it's been pretty expensive to generate
(10:58):
from renewable sources. And that provides a reason why Japan's
government wants source focus on nuclear products by restarting them,
because it's less expensive compared to building new large scale
solar and wind products in Japan. But even with those
slower build out of solar and wind products in Japan,
we're starting to see quite a lot of latility when
(11:20):
it comes to power price dynamics because there's still quite
a bit of solar products coming in in certain regions
like qu in the down South, and that's causing some
interesting power price dynamics, like we're seeing much lower prices
during the midday when more solar products tends to generate
electricity together.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And I mean your point around the sort of the
geography is taken, you know, the mountainous aspects, are we
seeing significant uptake of rooftop solar.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
There's quite a lot of share of roof puff solar
because of the same issue that we highlighted earlier, because
of a lot of mountains hindering large scale utility solar.
So we're seeing a lot of top solar products being
built on top of residential properties, and that tends to
take up a lot of share in Japan's solar product capacity.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So if we're thinking solar in Japan, probably our starting
point is rooftop solar, right interesting, and then we alluded
to it earlier, but the sort of the situation when
it comes to fuel is a little bit complicated. And
this is a market dynamic that is maybe I'd be
wrong set it's unique to Japan, but it's not something
you see in every market, and you do see it
(12:30):
in Japan. I know, you me, You've spent a lot
of time trying to figure this out. But when we're
thinking about power market dynamics, obviously a thing we always
think about is what is the fuel price? And in
a lot of markets as easy, you know, because whether
it's gas or coal, there's pretty liquid market with prices
that are constantly reported, and so it's very easy to
sort of relate what's going on power markets to that.
(12:52):
It's not quite so simple in Japan. So can you
just explain a little bit why it's not quite so simple?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I do think that the fuel's market and Japan is
very unique, and sometimes it can be causing a lot
of headache to the traders. It is quite complicated, and
that's because it has made two ways of procurement. And
first of all, the fuels can come from a spot
market or the currently traded market where utilities can buy
fuels on the spot or relatively for a short shorter
(13:21):
period of time, and then there's another procurement method for
long term contracts and for Japan's gas market, oftentimes those
long term contracts are indexed to oil prices like Brent,
and those deals can last up to almost fifteen to
twenty years. When I started covering this sector, it didn't
seem very obvious why long term contract guess would be
(13:43):
indexed to oil, and that seemed very random to me.
And actually there's quite a bit of long history behind
this because the utility started indexing long term contract to
oil back in eighties and nineties and that's when Japanese
utility started inputting gas to using the power sector. And
back then is used oil indexes to price that because
(14:03):
they are more familiar with the oil pricing and that
could give more stability in terms.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Of price outlook.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So fast forward, even today, a lot of the procurement
are still based on this kind of long term contract
gas prices index to oil and it can take up
around almost ninety percent of Japan's gas procurement currently. Even
for coal, it does have a quite complicated structure. It
both has spot and contract market to it, But for
coal it's less complicated because contract coal prices are index
(14:33):
to spot core prices, so it's easier compared to gas
market in Japan.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I remember you were telling me the other day that
the rules have changed recently about when say, if you're
a gas generator you're placing your bids in the power market,
what you should treat as your underlying fuel price. So
what are those rule changes and what led to those
rule changes happening?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Sure, so when it comes to power prices, you can
imagine that that's determined why utilities bidding into the wholesale
power market. And that's the biggest driver for that is
the marginal cost of generation or the fuel procurement costs
for these utilities. And as I just explained, because there's
a huge component of long term contract gas prices in
(15:17):
gas procurement, you two ties used to calculate those beasts
almost based on their long term contract gas prices. And
then like in the recent few years, there has been
more volatility in the spot gas market, and then the
utilities realized that they could resell the cargoes that they
procure from the long term contract market to the spot
gas market when there's such an opportunity, and then that
(15:39):
caused a huge spike in the power market because utwoties
were more incentivized to sell gas rather than to use
it to burn gas at their gas generation fleet. So
then Japanese government decided to revise the guideline in terms
of how the utilities calculate those bidding costs. And nowadays,
after twenty twenty and twenty one, now the youtuities tend
to reflect more spot gas prices in their beating costs,
(16:02):
and to a certain extent that has raised the power
prices in Japan. But also for you tities, now they
don't have to resolve gas in the spot market when
there's such a spike in the gas prices.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
This is interesting if we take a step back, what
you've just described to me in totality seems like an
example of a market going from this very regulated world
of you know, regulated monopolies, bilateral contracts doing what is
need to sort of keep the lights on, and then
trying to transition towards a very liquid, liberalized market. And
(16:36):
it seems like this sort of thing are kind of
some of the I don't know whether you would want
to call it growing pains that you hit along the
way where suddenly there are things happening that seem very
contradictory and complexity because you're going from one system that's
very simple to another system that's very simple. But in
the middle of that transition you have complexity. And that
seems to me part of what's going on here in
(16:56):
Japan right now. What makes it an interesting market is
that it's not fully there yet in terms of being
a liberalized power market.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I think I think you're right, it's sort of a
long road. And I would say, given sort of some
of the geographic constraints that we've discussed, energy cost and
energy security is obviously a big concern for regulators, and
I think it makes them quite risk averse to move
too quickly. Obviously, like the electricity grid is such a
(17:23):
complicated thing, and you know, finding yourself at any moment
a little bit short of power can really lead to disaster.
And so, you know, I mentioned that it has been
liberalizing for several decades, and we sort of assume that
the reforms will, you know, continue.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So, speaking of being worried about keeping the lights on,
everywhere in the world, when we talk about power, there
is always a question about Ai data centers, And I
know this is something that you looked at in the
recent Japan power market outlook. So we've talked about this
really tight power market, you know, particularly with the historical
(17:58):
retirements of nuclear and then it being very load to
bring them back, and then on top of that, users
to say, oh, there's a new source of demand in
the form of data centers. Is that a going to
be a major part of this story in Japan?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, So I guess that there are a couple of
components to this query about the recent boom in AI technologies.
The main one is around data centers and basically the
build out of these data centers that are really energy intensive,
and to what extent is that going to strain the grid.
Having looked at basically what's in the pipeline in Japan,
(18:32):
it looks like most of the data centers that will
be coming online in the next couple of years will
be in areas that already have really high power demand,
so very populous areas like Tokyo and Orsaka, which is
in the Kansai area. And there's a question, I guess,
when you're looking a little bit further out as to
whether that will continue to be the trend. So having
(18:52):
demand concentrated in certain areas is not ideal for Japan because,
for example, the less populous areas of how I Do
and Qsu have a lot of renewable generation. There's a
lot of power supply there, but not a lot of demand.
And then you know, when you get into Orsaka, Tokyo,
you have a lot of power demand but not so
much power supply, let alone clean power supply and new
(19:13):
AI technologies like training large language models, doesn't have as
much of a need to be close to the end
user so close to big cities. So that's sort of
an open question, I guess as we look a little
bit longer term. But the other facet of it in
Japan is that the government has big ambitions to make
Japan a bit of a powerhouse in terms of the
supply chain and in particular for semiconductor manufacturing, so it
(19:36):
has quite generous subsidies for companies looking to open semiconductor
fabs or fabrication plants we call them. And the tricky
thing with those, I guess, is that a lot of
these technology companies, be it for the data centers or
the semiconductor manufacturing, have quite ambitious climate targets as well,
even though their processes really require around the clock power.
(19:57):
And so this is kind of something that has also
been reopened the nuclear question in Japan because obviously wind
and solar is intermittent and only generates power when the
sun is shining or the wind is blowing. But there
are lots of market entrants, particularly given recent geopolitical risks,
that are looking to open facilities in Japan that need
to consume a lot of power out of twenty four
(20:18):
to seven around the clock basis, while also meeting company
wide targets to have that be carbon free. And so
there's been a lot of attention on nuclear as that
low carbon, around the clock source of power. But also
the government I suppose, has been trying to promote some
of these facilities to be in those areas like cock
Guide or Qushu that have a lot of renewable power.
(20:41):
Water is also an important question. So yeah, those are
some of I guess the variables at play when it
comes to AI. But in the sort of like next
couple of years, we looked at the data centers that
will probably come online, and I think in terms of prices,
it won't really do that much. There's not a huge
amount I think in the pipeline, and some of us
scenarios are seeing like a plus minus one percent I
(21:03):
think change in power prices over the coming couple of years.
So yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't get too over excited
about it in the near term, but there are a
bit more uncertainties when we look further into the future.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So beyond the next two years, we don't think it's
going to make too much of a difference. But beyond that,
there's a lot of you know, it starts getting into scenarios,
you know, rather than as actually be able to say,
because like what you've just described, there is quite a
lot of different dynamic questions that, like, you know, and
that kind of leads you back to geopolitical considerations, which
are obviously extremely difficult to predict.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Interesting, I suppose it sort of leads me to this question,
which I have asked before and I'm going to ask
it again. It seems like Japan is not privileged when
it comes to the energy transition. The geography. It means
it's not that easy to build renewables there. It doesn't
(21:56):
have its own domestic sources of fuel, nuclear has a
problematic history in Japan, and you know there are efforts
to try and address that and still make the best
of nuclear, but not just from an energy transition point
of view, but just from an energy strategy point of view.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
What options does Japan have given all of this? There
doesn't seem to be an easy option for Japan. So
am I wrong?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
There is there an easy option? And if there isn't
an easy option, what do you think the strategy should be?
So really put you on the spot here. Obviously, you know,
hopefully the Japanese government is listening intently.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Were like, you, me and Mariko, what's the answer?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I think, honestly, it might take a sort of reframing maybe.
I think, you know, you mentioned earlier about when you
know kats you kind of realize how different niache Cat
is and so like in that vein, I think maybe
some of the frameworks that we use to think about
de carbonization solutions that optimize for things like costs in
(22:55):
other countries are maybe we have to think about them
a little bit differently when it seems like every option
is a little bit tricky, and this difficulty has led
the government to somewhat unconventional places. So, for example, one
of the things that is being promoted at the moment
is sort of co firing of coal with hydrogen or ammonia, which,
(23:18):
on balance, we think, based on the actual abatement possibilities
of those technologies as well as the cost, doesn't really
make sense, and it doesn't really help on the sort
of energy security or import dependence side of things either.
But I think, like taking a step back, even before
decarbonization really became a priority, I guess things were never
(23:38):
really easy for Japan. It's always had sort of the
fault lines being a risk for nuclear, and it never
had coal or gas, so it was paying a higher
price for a lot of things than some of its neighbors.
So I think rather than having that be a reason
to give up on things like renewables, it might be
more of a reason to double down on some of
(23:59):
those things that look difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Right. It's it's because I mean we were speaking earlier
about how I used to think that Japanese people, you know,
in my ownivity, this is like a decade of Japanese
people just inherently more energy efficient. Well, in reality, it's
like you're in an island that has an expensive electricity.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
By necessity, you have to use energy in a more
mindful way.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
So is what you're saying there that in all of
these things, whether it's nuclear, renewables, fossil fuels, it has
to be just done in an extremely smart and targeted way,
and we may see certain innovations on, you know, making
more out of what Japan has.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, at least that's sort of what
I think.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I think you Tommy, you raised a really good point
about Japan facing challenges when it comes to cheap energy,
clean energy, but also security of electricity. And for Japan,
as you mentioned, because it's an island nation, it faces
a particularly difficult challenge around energy security. And that's why
in the historical period, Japan's Energy Ministry or the METI
(25:06):
try to prioritize energy security, and I guess that's why
we're hearing less exciting news when it comes to renewables,
and they've been I guess somewhat cautious around nuclear restarts
as well. But even though we're not very positive about
Japan's ammonia co firing strategy and a lot of different
renewable strategy that the government has, I think it still
(25:27):
opens up a debate in terms of what can Japan
do to decarbonize its energy on top of providing secure electricity.
So I think there's kind of discussions around nuclear restarts,
ammonia co firing, and also auctions for different kind of renewables.
It is a step towards right direction for Japan to
so we start decarbonizing its power sector.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Can I just add something which is also on the
like the points that Ami mentioned, but also on making
the most of what it has And this obviously could
open up a whole new episode on grids, But one
of the ways it can do that is also like
around transmission capacity. And I know we haven't really gone
into it in much length today, but there's quite limited
transmission capacity at the moment in Japan, again for the
(26:10):
historical legacy reasons that you me mentioned where regional state
owned utilities didn't really have much incentive to cooperate historically.
But one of the things that could really help, I suppose,
into getting more bang for your book. We're already seeing
solar curtailment or like solar power not being used in
places like Yushu where there's not much power demand, but
having really really good grid infrastructure could be one of
(26:33):
the things that helps.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And I suppose, you know, going back to the original point,
because in a way, it sounds like I've kind of
spun a little bit of a downer here. You know,
Japan has so many challenges when it comes to energy,
and when we started with, Japan is the most exciting
market power market in the world right now. So how
do we reconcile the two? And I suppose to this
point around being smart and making the right decisions, is
(26:58):
this liberalization of the power market which is also bringing
in a lot of foreign players. You know, it's kind
of like maybe bringing the best of the world to
Japan in terms of intelligence. Do you see that these
things you've just described, that this liberalization of the market
is a necessary step to enable all of that to happen.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
It's a really interesting question, and at the moment, I'm
sort of of the opinion that liberalization of the market
is not the end goal or necessarily the only solution
to enable a lot of these changes to happen, but
it might be a necessary intermediate step.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Coming from Korea, which is completely unliberalized market, I think
there's a real value to liberalizing the market and bringing
more participants, because like in countries like Japan, where there's
in company utilities whose powers are so strong, we can't
really imagine a lot of innovations to happen if they
have a lot of generation assets. So I think when
(27:52):
it comes to energy, we do require some type of
regulations and so we still need some support from the
government to decobronize and also by security. But it's a
good opportunity for Japan to face liberalization and let the
participants figure out what's best for them.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's a really interesting point comparing Japan and Korea.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Are there other countries in Asia that are starting to
pursue the path of the Japan is pursuing right now?
And is Japan in the region the sort of the
leader on that front.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I'd say Japan and Australia are the leaders in terms
of liberalized power market. Government is pursuing that direction, and
there's also financial products like the futures market that brings
different competitors. I'd say my next pick might be China.
And now when it comes to China, it's it used
(28:44):
to be a very unliberalized market with long term contracts
instead of the wholesale power market. But Chinese government is
really pursuing to move towards liberalized direction and it's opening
up wholesale markets in certain provinces. So I think in
Kina there are on conversations starting to open in terms
of what can the government and the participants do. And interestingly,
(29:07):
when we attended the Japan Power Week a few months ago,
we did see some Chinese participants coming for our events,
So I think that really highlights the interests from Chinese
market as well, and.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
I think Southeast Asia as well.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
This is something that's spoken about, but I think, you know,
we spoke about Japan has is going on this long
process of going from very regulated to very much more deregulated,
and you encounter these bumps along the road, like the
ones that you'd described earlier, Umi, and it sounds like,
if you're wanting to understand that some of the challenges
that other markets in Asia might be facing on going
(29:40):
on that same journey, maybe Japan is a couple of
steps ahead. And that's also what makes Japan an exciting
and interesting market because it's it's sort of maybe leading
the way for the region.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Is that a fair statement.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah, I think so. I think Japan would have a
lot of trials and errors, which is going to be
really tough for Japan, Japan's harmarket and also for US
was analyzing the market. But then it's going to be
a really good learning experience for Japan, but also other
countries in APEG that faces liberalization.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, I think so. One of my favorite and now
almost trite subtitles to use when I'm writing about Japan
is liberalization and transition, and that I think what's been
really interesting in Japan and that lot a lot of
other countries will be watching closely, is the fact that
they really are liberalizing their power market very much at
the same time as they're trying to decognize it.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Got it, Mariko, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Thanks so much for having me, and.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Youu me, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Thank you so much for having me too.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Today's episode of Switchdown was produced by Cam Gray with
production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg ne EF is a
service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This
recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, as
investment advice, invest recommendations, or a recommendation as to an
investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIAF should not be considered
(31:06):
as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.
Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes
any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness
of the information contained in this recording, and any liability
as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed
This is Tom Rowland's Reese and you're listening to Switched
on the BNF podcast. Today we're discussing the Japanese power market,
a market which, as one of our guests boldly claims,
could be the most important power market in the world.
Since the Fukushima disaster and its entire nuclear power fleet
being shut down, the Japanese power market has continued to
face our host of challenges, not only natural disasters, but
(00:21):
the global energy crisis and more extreme periods of weather.
To many, this may seem unattractive or too challenging, and
yet the world's third largest liberalized power market has been
attracting more attention from foreign investors than ever. While Japanese
power demand has been in decline in recent years, we
are now seeing this trend reverse with new data centers
and semiconductor manufacturing plants connecting to the grid. With these
(00:42):
comes the need for further power sources. Utility scale renewables
such as wind and solar would be a natural fit
for most in this situation, but as we are to
discuss today, land constraints and local factors opposing their own
set of challenges For these two to discuss, the Japanese
power market further. Today, I'm joined by two of BNF's
Global Power Market's Teamly it's Mariko O'Neil and Yumi Kim,
to review findings from the report Japan Power Market Outlook
(01:04):
too H twenty twenty four Tailwinds Ahead. BNF clientsill be
able to access this and other related research at BNF
go on the Bloomberg terminal and at BNF dot com. Now,
let's talk to Marico and Num about the Japanese power market.
(01:27):
So I'm joined here today by Mariko. Mariko, thank you
for joining.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Thanks for having me, and Yumi.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
Thanks a lot for inviting me too.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So we're talking about the Japanese power market. First off,
there's a lot of interest in it right now. It
seems to be a hot topic, not just in Japan
but around the power world. So why is it that
everyone's talking about Japan right now?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, good question. So this might be controversial, but I
think there's an argument to be made that the Japanese
power market might be the biggest power market in the
world never And we can get into sort of like
all the parameters of whether it is or it isn't later,
But in terms of why now, Japan has been slowly
(02:10):
but surely liberalizing its power market over the past couple
of decades, and its efforts really accelerated after twenty eleven
and when they had to remove nuclear capacity from the
grid after Fukushima. So you could say that it was
properly liberalized in twenty sixteen, and since then trading volumes
have been climbing. And given that it's an island with
no almost no natural resources and almost entirely dependent on
(02:33):
fuel imports, there's been a lot of interest sort of
across the commodities space on what's going on in the
Japanese power system.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
So, actually, I mean on this topic, you both spoke
at a seminar that we held in our Tokyo office
quite recently after releasing the Japan Power Market Outlook, and
it was part of Japan Power Week, which I presume
is like a bigger thing where everyone is coming in.
So how much of the people in the room there
would you say were people who do their business in
(03:01):
Japan versus global companies.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Yeah, at the moment, it's quite a nice, almost straight
down the middle, half and half split, i'd say, of
market participants, with half of them being domestic Japanese players,
and then the other half being from everywhere from Sydney
to Singapore to Hamburg to Chicago. So that's been quite international.
One of the things about Japan having liberalized its power
(03:24):
market more recently is that those who've been involved in
the US or European power markets are looking at it
and thinking, I can play the same game or a
similar game to what I did in the US or
in Europe in Japan.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So just before we started recording, I was talking about
my cats. I adopted two kittens recently, and one of
the things that my wife said, and she'd never had cats,
was a surprise to her, is that if you didn't
know cats, you'd think they're all the same, and when
you have them, you realize they have distinct personalities. So
liberalized power markets, you know, and you mentioned that people
(04:01):
who are familiar with liberalised power markets see japan'ze here
is a power market that is becoming more like what
I'm used to. But just like a cat, the Japanese
power market must have its own personality. So what are
the characteristics that define the Japanese power market as distinct
from the others that we're used to.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
One of the things might be like geography. So, as
I mentioned, Japan is an island with no electrical interconnections
to any other country, so in that sense, it's quite
self contained. Those people who've been involved in Europe or
the US, this might be a bit different to them,
where there's a bit of interconnection between different markets. Another
thing is that it's sort of like a very long
(04:40):
and thin island, you could say, so in terms of
climate and weather, you have subarctic regions like hock Guido
in the north, all the way down to subtropical regions
like Qushu in the south, with really different climates throughout
the year, which obviously affects electricity consumption or what I
guess we call power demand. And another thing actually that
is a very particular quirk is that the grid is
(05:02):
essentially split into two. So East Japan, which is composed
of the region's hock Guide or Tohoko and Tokyo, is
on fifty hertz, and then West Japan, composed of the
six other power regions of Japan, is on sixty hurts,
and there's very little transformer capacity between the two, which
makes it sort of a tale of two cities.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
You could say, Yeah, I'd also like to add that
the fuels market in Japan is quite unique because, as
Marco said, Japan is quite important dependent. It doesn't have
a lot of natural resources within that country. So when
we look at the normal power mix in Japan, there's
almost a fifty to fifty split between call and gas,
and within those fuel technologies, there's quite complicated contract structure
(05:46):
compared to markets like Europe and US. So that's another
feature in Japan that's quite unique to the market.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
We're going to talk about that, that sort of the
complexities of the spot versus contract markets, because I think
that is something to understand the Japanese paner market you
have to really understand as much as the power dynamics.
But just generally on this point around fuels all being imported,
does that translate to relatively expensive power in Japan, then, I'd.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
Say so to a certain extent. In Japan because as
we highlighted, it has to import almost all of its fuel.
That's particularly true for gas because gas prices tend to
be more expensive than cool So unlike US, where it
has a huge capacity of domestic gas procurement, like Japan
has to really quite a lot on the spot procurement
(06:32):
and also the long term contracts from other countries like
Middle East and also US, so all of that costs
is translated into higher power prices in Japan.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
So we have an island kind of divided into sort
of two islands. We could say a fifty hertz and
a sixty hertz island. Could we just explain quickly for listeners,
why are there two different grids with different frequencies?
Speaker 3 (06:56):
They have a different frequency when it comes to grid
because Japan's powermark used to be dominated by nine incombine utilities,
so they used to have control over generation, transmission and
operation and also the retail side. So because it was
basically a monopoly of those nine incombineutilities, they had very
little incentive to cooperate with each other because they kept
(07:18):
control over specific power regions. But because Japan now faced
the regulation of the power markets, now obviously they have
to cooperate more. But unfortunately, because of this historical legacy
of incombine utilities, the greed system is not as holistic
as we want to be.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
So we have this thin island with very diverse weather,
not a lot of its own natural resources, and relatively
expensive imported fuel, and then we know that if those
are the equations you're dealing with, maybe a logical thing
would be nuclear. And obviously nuclear has had a rollercoaster
of a story in Japan. Could you tell us where
(07:57):
we are right now? Give it maybe a little bit
of a background into the history of it, but could
you tell us what the current dynamic sell when it
relates to nuclear.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah, so funny that you asked this bit. So in
twenty eleven, after the Mount Dan up for Kushuma, Japan
turned off all of its nuclear reactors for power generation,
so it went from having significant chunk of power generation
being nucleared to none and thankfully, actually there were limited
blackouts because they had pretty strong contingency plans for other
(08:26):
sources of power. But it has meant that obviously they've
substituted a lot of nuclear generation with gas and coal generation.
And since twenty eleven there's been a big effort to
restart some of the reactors. So they want to basically
check all of the nuclear reactors to make sure they're
safe to operate and in the event of anything like
an earthquake or another tsunami, there is a sufficient backup
(08:47):
plan in place to ensure everyone's safety, and they've restarted
a handful, particularly in West Japan, so I think nuclear
generation last year was just shy of ten percent of
power generation in Japan. However, they have set quite ambitious
targets for restarting the nuclear fleet, So because of its
role as sort of cheap, marginal cost and low carbon
(09:10):
source of power generation, Japan wants to have twenty to
twenty two percent of its power generation coming from nuclear
by twenty thirty. However, the process of restarting the reactors
has been really slow and riddled with delays, and actually
the first nuclear reactor in East Japan has restarted since
twenty eleven, so if you think about that, that's taken
(09:31):
over thirteen years to restart that reactor. And based on
our recent analysis, actually even if Japan were to restart
all of the reactors that have applied to its Nuclear
Regulation Authority for approval to restart, it still wouldn't hit
this twenty thirty target of having over a fifth of
its power generation coming from nuclear. So it is kind
(09:52):
of stuck in a tricky position because obviously, even if
the government would like to emphasize nuclear as a source
of clean and low cost power generation. It's extremely politically contentious,
and there's very little control of an independent regulator deciding
whether or not a reactor is safe to restart. So
that's sort of the whole pickle with nuclear power.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
That's really interesting, And I would have just thought that
in this scenario that the natural next question would be
why aren't we seeing a huge increase in the buildout
of renewables, whether it's wind or solar. Seems like a
market primed for that, But they're not. I mean, I
don't know what the numbers are. Am I right in
saying they're not actually a huge part of the film mix?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah, you're right that for solar and wind products, it's
taking quite a bit of time in Japan to be developed,
and that's because of relatively high cost of development compared
to other countries. And the main reason is that Japan
there's quite a lot of mountains, so it's really difficult
to build large scale solar products, for example, within its
land and that's why it's been pretty expensive to generate
(10:58):
from renewable sources. And that provides a reason why Japan's
government wants source focus on nuclear products by restarting them,
because it's less expensive compared to building new large scale
solar and wind products in Japan. But even with those
slower build out of solar and wind products in Japan,
we're starting to see quite a lot of latility when
(11:20):
it comes to power price dynamics because there's still quite
a bit of solar products coming in in certain regions
like qu in the down South, and that's causing some
interesting power price dynamics, like we're seeing much lower prices
during the midday when more solar products tends to generate
electricity together.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
And I mean your point around the sort of the
geography is taken, you know, the mountainous aspects, are we
seeing significant uptake of rooftop solar.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
There's quite a lot of share of roof puff solar
because of the same issue that we highlighted earlier, because
of a lot of mountains hindering large scale utility solar.
So we're seeing a lot of top solar products being
built on top of residential properties, and that tends to
take up a lot of share in Japan's solar product capacity.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
So if we're thinking solar in Japan, probably our starting
point is rooftop solar, right interesting, and then we alluded
to it earlier, but the sort of the situation when
it comes to fuel is a little bit complicated. And
this is a market dynamic that is maybe I'd be
wrong set it's unique to Japan, but it's not something
you see in every market, and you do see it
(12:30):
in Japan. I know, you me, You've spent a lot
of time trying to figure this out. But when we're
thinking about power market dynamics, obviously a thing we always
think about is what is the fuel price? And in
a lot of markets as easy, you know, because whether
it's gas or coal, there's pretty liquid market with prices
that are constantly reported, and so it's very easy to
sort of relate what's going on power markets to that.
(12:52):
It's not quite so simple in Japan. So can you
just explain a little bit why it's not quite so simple?
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I do think that the fuel's market and Japan is
very unique, and sometimes it can be causing a lot
of headache to the traders. It is quite complicated, and
that's because it has made two ways of procurement. And
first of all, the fuels can come from a spot
market or the currently traded market where utilities can buy
fuels on the spot or relatively for a short shorter
(13:21):
period of time, and then there's another procurement method for
long term contracts and for Japan's gas market, oftentimes those
long term contracts are indexed to oil prices like Brent,
and those deals can last up to almost fifteen to
twenty years. When I started covering this sector, it didn't
seem very obvious why long term contract guess would be
(13:43):
indexed to oil, and that seemed very random to me.
And actually there's quite a bit of long history behind
this because the utility started indexing long term contract to
oil back in eighties and nineties and that's when Japanese
utility started inputting gas to using the power sector. And
back then is used oil indexes to price that because
(14:03):
they are more familiar with the oil pricing and that
could give more stability in terms.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Of price outlook.
Speaker 3 (14:09):
So fast forward, even today, a lot of the procurement
are still based on this kind of long term contract
gas prices index to oil and it can take up
around almost ninety percent of Japan's gas procurement currently. Even
for coal, it does have a quite complicated structure. It
both has spot and contract market to it, But for
coal it's less complicated because contract coal prices are index
(14:33):
to spot core prices, so it's easier compared to gas
market in Japan.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
I remember you were telling me the other day that
the rules have changed recently about when say, if you're
a gas generator you're placing your bids in the power market,
what you should treat as your underlying fuel price. So
what are those rule changes and what led to those
rule changes happening?
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Sure, so when it comes to power prices, you can
imagine that that's determined why utilities bidding into the wholesale
power market. And that's the biggest driver for that is
the marginal cost of generation or the fuel procurement costs
for these utilities. And as I just explained, because there's
a huge component of long term contract gas prices in
(15:17):
gas procurement, you two ties used to calculate those beasts
almost based on their long term contract gas prices. And
then like in the recent few years, there has been
more volatility in the spot gas market, and then the
utilities realized that they could resell the cargoes that they
procure from the long term contract market to the spot
gas market when there's such an opportunity, and then that
(15:39):
caused a huge spike in the power market because utwoties
were more incentivized to sell gas rather than to use
it to burn gas at their gas generation fleet. So
then Japanese government decided to revise the guideline in terms
of how the utilities calculate those bidding costs. And nowadays,
after twenty twenty and twenty one, now the youtuities tend
to reflect more spot gas prices in their beating costs,
(16:02):
and to a certain extent that has raised the power
prices in Japan. But also for you tities, now they
don't have to resolve gas in the spot market when
there's such a spike in the gas prices.
Speaker 1 (16:14):
This is interesting if we take a step back, what
you've just described to me in totality seems like an
example of a market going from this very regulated world
of you know, regulated monopolies, bilateral contracts doing what is
need to sort of keep the lights on, and then
trying to transition towards a very liquid, liberalized market. And
(16:36):
it seems like this sort of thing are kind of
some of the I don't know whether you would want
to call it growing pains that you hit along the
way where suddenly there are things happening that seem very
contradictory and complexity because you're going from one system that's
very simple to another system that's very simple. But in
the middle of that transition you have complexity. And that
seems to me part of what's going on here in
(16:56):
Japan right now. What makes it an interesting market is
that it's not fully there yet in terms of being
a liberalized power market.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
I think I think you're right, it's sort of a
long road. And I would say, given sort of some
of the geographic constraints that we've discussed, energy cost and
energy security is obviously a big concern for regulators, and
I think it makes them quite risk averse to move
too quickly. Obviously, like the electricity grid is such a
(17:23):
complicated thing, and you know, finding yourself at any moment
a little bit short of power can really lead to disaster.
And so, you know, I mentioned that it has been
liberalizing for several decades, and we sort of assume that
the reforms will, you know, continue.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
So, speaking of being worried about keeping the lights on,
everywhere in the world, when we talk about power, there
is always a question about Ai data centers, And I
know this is something that you looked at in the
recent Japan power market outlook. So we've talked about this
really tight power market, you know, particularly with the historical
(17:58):
retirements of nuclear and then it being very load to
bring them back, and then on top of that, users
to say, oh, there's a new source of demand in
the form of data centers. Is that a going to
be a major part of this story in Japan?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, So I guess that there are a couple of
components to this query about the recent boom in AI technologies.
The main one is around data centers and basically the
build out of these data centers that are really energy intensive,
and to what extent is that going to strain the grid.
Having looked at basically what's in the pipeline in Japan,
(18:32):
it looks like most of the data centers that will
be coming online in the next couple of years will
be in areas that already have really high power demand,
so very populous areas like Tokyo and Orsaka, which is
in the Kansai area. And there's a question, I guess,
when you're looking a little bit further out as to
whether that will continue to be the trend. So having
(18:52):
demand concentrated in certain areas is not ideal for Japan because,
for example, the less populous areas of how I Do
and Qsu have a lot of renewable generation. There's a
lot of power supply there, but not a lot of demand.
And then you know, when you get into Orsaka, Tokyo,
you have a lot of power demand but not so
much power supply, let alone clean power supply and new
(19:13):
AI technologies like training large language models, doesn't have as
much of a need to be close to the end
user so close to big cities. So that's sort of
an open question, I guess as we look a little
bit longer term. But the other facet of it in
Japan is that the government has big ambitions to make
Japan a bit of a powerhouse in terms of the
supply chain and in particular for semiconductor manufacturing, so it
(19:36):
has quite generous subsidies for companies looking to open semiconductor
fabs or fabrication plants we call them. And the tricky
thing with those, I guess, is that a lot of
these technology companies, be it for the data centers or
the semiconductor manufacturing, have quite ambitious climate targets as well,
even though their processes really require around the clock power.
(19:57):
And so this is kind of something that has also
been reopened the nuclear question in Japan because obviously wind
and solar is intermittent and only generates power when the
sun is shining or the wind is blowing. But there
are lots of market entrants, particularly given recent geopolitical risks,
that are looking to open facilities in Japan that need
to consume a lot of power out of twenty four
(20:18):
to seven around the clock basis, while also meeting company
wide targets to have that be carbon free. And so
there's been a lot of attention on nuclear as that
low carbon, around the clock source of power. But also
the government I suppose, has been trying to promote some
of these facilities to be in those areas like cock
Guide or Qushu that have a lot of renewable power.
(20:41):
Water is also an important question. So yeah, those are
some of I guess the variables at play when it
comes to AI. But in the sort of like next
couple of years, we looked at the data centers that
will probably come online, and I think in terms of prices,
it won't really do that much. There's not a huge
amount I think in the pipeline, and some of us
scenarios are seeing like a plus minus one percent I
(21:03):
think change in power prices over the coming couple of years.
So yeah, I wouldn't I wouldn't get too over excited
about it in the near term, but there are a
bit more uncertainties when we look further into the future.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
So beyond the next two years, we don't think it's
going to make too much of a difference. But beyond that,
there's a lot of you know, it starts getting into scenarios,
you know, rather than as actually be able to say,
because like what you've just described, there is quite a
lot of different dynamic questions that, like, you know, and
that kind of leads you back to geopolitical considerations, which
are obviously extremely difficult to predict.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Interesting, I suppose it sort of leads me to this question,
which I have asked before and I'm going to ask
it again. It seems like Japan is not privileged when
it comes to the energy transition. The geography. It means
it's not that easy to build renewables there. It doesn't
(21:56):
have its own domestic sources of fuel, nuclear has a
problematic history in Japan, and you know there are efforts
to try and address that and still make the best
of nuclear, but not just from an energy transition point
of view, but just from an energy strategy point of view.
Speaker 4 (22:11):
What options does Japan have given all of this? There
doesn't seem to be an easy option for Japan. So
am I wrong?
Speaker 1 (22:19):
There is there an easy option? And if there isn't
an easy option, what do you think the strategy should be?
So really put you on the spot here. Obviously, you know,
hopefully the Japanese government is listening intently.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Were like, you, me and Mariko, what's the answer?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
I think, honestly, it might take a sort of reframing maybe.
I think, you know, you mentioned earlier about when you
know kats you kind of realize how different niache Cat
is and so like in that vein, I think maybe
some of the frameworks that we use to think about
de carbonization solutions that optimize for things like costs in
(22:55):
other countries are maybe we have to think about them
a little bit differently when it seems like every option
is a little bit tricky, and this difficulty has led
the government to somewhat unconventional places. So, for example, one
of the things that is being promoted at the moment
is sort of co firing of coal with hydrogen or ammonia, which,
(23:18):
on balance, we think, based on the actual abatement possibilities
of those technologies as well as the cost, doesn't really
make sense, and it doesn't really help on the sort
of energy security or import dependence side of things either.
But I think, like taking a step back, even before
decarbonization really became a priority, I guess things were never
(23:38):
really easy for Japan. It's always had sort of the
fault lines being a risk for nuclear, and it never
had coal or gas, so it was paying a higher
price for a lot of things than some of its neighbors.
So I think rather than having that be a reason
to give up on things like renewables, it might be
more of a reason to double down on some of
(23:59):
those things that look difficult.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Right. It's it's because I mean we were speaking earlier
about how I used to think that Japanese people, you know,
in my ownivity, this is like a decade of Japanese
people just inherently more energy efficient. Well, in reality, it's
like you're in an island that has an expensive electricity.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
By necessity, you have to use energy in a more
mindful way.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
So is what you're saying there that in all of
these things, whether it's nuclear, renewables, fossil fuels, it has
to be just done in an extremely smart and targeted way,
and we may see certain innovations on, you know, making
more out of what Japan has.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, at least that's sort of what
I think.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
I think you Tommy, you raised a really good point
about Japan facing challenges when it comes to cheap energy,
clean energy, but also security of electricity. And for Japan,
as you mentioned, because it's an island nation, it faces
a particularly difficult challenge around energy security. And that's why
in the historical period, Japan's Energy Ministry or the METI
(25:06):
try to prioritize energy security, and I guess that's why
we're hearing less exciting news when it comes to renewables,
and they've been I guess somewhat cautious around nuclear restarts
as well. But even though we're not very positive about
Japan's ammonia co firing strategy and a lot of different
renewable strategy that the government has, I think it still
(25:27):
opens up a debate in terms of what can Japan
do to decarbonize its energy on top of providing secure electricity.
So I think there's kind of discussions around nuclear restarts,
ammonia co firing, and also auctions for different kind of renewables.
It is a step towards right direction for Japan to
so we start decarbonizing its power sector.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Can I just add something which is also on the
like the points that Ami mentioned, but also on making
the most of what it has And this obviously could
open up a whole new episode on grids, But one
of the ways it can do that is also like
around transmission capacity. And I know we haven't really gone
into it in much length today, but there's quite limited
transmission capacity at the moment in Japan, again for the
(26:10):
historical legacy reasons that you me mentioned where regional state
owned utilities didn't really have much incentive to cooperate historically.
But one of the things that could really help, I suppose,
into getting more bang for your book. We're already seeing
solar curtailment or like solar power not being used in
places like Yushu where there's not much power demand, but
having really really good grid infrastructure could be one of
(26:33):
the things that helps.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
And I suppose, you know, going back to the original point,
because in a way, it sounds like I've kind of
spun a little bit of a downer here. You know,
Japan has so many challenges when it comes to energy,
and when we started with, Japan is the most exciting
market power market in the world right now. So how
do we reconcile the two? And I suppose to this
point around being smart and making the right decisions, is
(26:58):
this liberalization of the power market which is also bringing
in a lot of foreign players. You know, it's kind
of like maybe bringing the best of the world to
Japan in terms of intelligence. Do you see that these
things you've just described, that this liberalization of the market
is a necessary step to enable all of that to happen.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
It's a really interesting question, and at the moment, I'm
sort of of the opinion that liberalization of the market
is not the end goal or necessarily the only solution
to enable a lot of these changes to happen, but
it might be a necessary intermediate step.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Coming from Korea, which is completely unliberalized market, I think
there's a real value to liberalizing the market and bringing
more participants, because like in countries like Japan, where there's
in company utilities whose powers are so strong, we can't
really imagine a lot of innovations to happen if they
have a lot of generation assets. So I think when
(27:52):
it comes to energy, we do require some type of
regulations and so we still need some support from the
government to decobronize and also by security. But it's a
good opportunity for Japan to face liberalization and let the
participants figure out what's best for them.
Speaker 4 (28:07):
It's a really interesting point comparing Japan and Korea.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Are there other countries in Asia that are starting to
pursue the path of the Japan is pursuing right now?
And is Japan in the region the sort of the
leader on that front.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
I'd say Japan and Australia are the leaders in terms
of liberalized power market. Government is pursuing that direction, and
there's also financial products like the futures market that brings
different competitors. I'd say my next pick might be China.
And now when it comes to China, it's it used
(28:44):
to be a very unliberalized market with long term contracts
instead of the wholesale power market. But Chinese government is
really pursuing to move towards liberalized direction and it's opening
up wholesale markets in certain provinces. So I think in
Kina there are on conversations starting to open in terms
of what can the government and the participants do. And interestingly,
(29:07):
when we attended the Japan Power Week a few months ago,
we did see some Chinese participants coming for our events,
So I think that really highlights the interests from Chinese
market as well, and.
Speaker 4 (29:17):
I think Southeast Asia as well.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
This is something that's spoken about, but I think, you know,
we spoke about Japan has is going on this long
process of going from very regulated to very much more deregulated,
and you encounter these bumps along the road, like the
ones that you'd described earlier, Umi, and it sounds like,
if you're wanting to understand that some of the challenges
that other markets in Asia might be facing on going
(29:40):
on that same journey, maybe Japan is a couple of
steps ahead. And that's also what makes Japan an exciting
and interesting market because it's it's sort of maybe leading
the way for the region.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Is that a fair statement.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
Yeah, I think so. I think Japan would have a
lot of trials and errors, which is going to be
really tough for Japan, Japan's harmarket and also for US
was analyzing the market. But then it's going to be
a really good learning experience for Japan, but also other
countries in APEG that faces liberalization.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah, I think so. One of my favorite and now
almost trite subtitles to use when I'm writing about Japan
is liberalization and transition, and that I think what's been
really interesting in Japan and that lot a lot of
other countries will be watching closely, is the fact that
they really are liberalizing their power market very much at
the same time as they're trying to decognize it.
Speaker 4 (30:29):
Got it, Mariko, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Thanks so much for having me, and.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Youu me, thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Thank you so much for having me too.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Today's episode of Switchdown was produced by Cam Gray with
production assistants from Kamala Shelling. Bloomberg ne EF is a
service provided by Bloomberg Finance LP and its affiliates. This
recording does not constitute, nor should it be construed, as
investment advice, invest recommendations, or a recommendation as to an
investment or other strategy. Bloomberg ANIAF should not be considered
(31:06):
as information sufficient upon which to base an investment decision.
Neither Bloomberg Finance LP nor any of its affiliates makes
any representation or warranty as to the accuracy or completeness
of the information contained in this recording, and any liability
as a result of this recording is expressly disclaimed
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