June 26, 2025 • 46 mins
One of the most common questions we get from our listeners is ‘where has my desire gone and how do I get it back?’ It seems to be something every one of us experiences at different stages of our lives and we still don’t seem to be talking about it all that much. Speaking of things we don’t talk about, when was the last time you self pleasured? How about your partner? Do you ask them when they masturbate? Don’t worry, we don’t either. But maybe we should!
Joining us is the incredible Dr. Jennifer Gunsaullus, aka ‘Dr. Jenn,’ a sociologist, sexologist, TEDx speaker, and ‘Vagina Warrior’. With over 20 years of experience in the field of sexual health, Dr Jenn is here to break down how we all feel about desire and pleasure for ourselves and within our relationships!
We spoke about:
- How our attitudes have changed when it comes to talking about sex
- How girls and boys are socialised differently when it comes to our bodies
- When to talk to kids about their ‘urges’
- How our desire levels change over our lifetime and so does ‘what feels good’
- Is porn a common problem in relationships?
- Are you the higher desire person or lower desire person in your relationship?
- How important is it to masturbate?
- Practical ways that you can bring your desire back
You can find Dr Jenn’s new book From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This episode was recorded on cameragle Land.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany. Now let me tell you after
listening to this episode today, Well, you might be feeling
something after this. Were you masturbate, you might. Yeah, I
I was gonna be more subtle, Brittany.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
There's nothing subtle about this episode. We're talking pleasure, all right.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We are talking pleasure. We're talking masturbation. And this is
a topic that is often incredibly taboo, not on our podcast,
but you know, it's something that as well, I think
as women, a lot of us grew up with a
lot of stigma around and discussing it and talking about
it has definitely been something that has come into more
of the social sphere recently. There are a lot of
people online who are discussing female pleasure. I mean, we
(00:52):
interviewed Ellie from Comfortable in her Skin, who is a
really big advocate here in Australia. But still, I think
that it is something that we look at specifically. I
think it's quite gendered. We have different views on it
for female pleasure versus male pleasure, but just in fact,
you know, the reasons why it's something that might be important,
the reason why it's something that is so stigmatized are
(01:13):
all the things we're unpacking on this episode. And we
do have doctor Jen joining us now. She's a sexologist,
she's a ted X speaker, and she's also coined the
vagina Warrior for anyone who needs their vagina being worried.
There it is a warrior. Don't worry your vagina.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
They're not. Your vagina's not worried. It's a warrior. It's
a warrior. Two separate things.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
With over twenty years of experience in the sexual health field,
doctor Jen is here to break it all down for us.
And also, I'm just so fascinated in how someone becomes
an expert on masturbation and they how many hours has
to go into this field of research.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Jen, You're like, what's that diploma? How do you do that?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Well, it's also a lot of talking about it, so
not always the doing FOT.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, well, welcome to the Podcat. It's so nice
to have you here. And I know, like we start
our podcast episodes, we're talking about Axland Filtered's. I'm sure
you have an embarrassing story. I wonder if it's related
or not that. Yeah, what is your embarrassing story?
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Guy? It's so funny. I was like, which one do
I choose? But I went as sort of related to
these topics. So I started dating my boyfriend a little
less than three years ago, and it was just and
he's a scientist and like a cancer researcher, so not
at all used to anybody who talks about sex all
the time in such an open way. At the time
(02:36):
when we started dating, I was just releasing a podcast
about trying to feel sexy again, like in my late forties.
At the time, this was, you know, like three years ago.
And how I did this. I did this like eight
day quest or one week quest for myself around trying
to feel desire and trying to be sexy again. And
I talked about dating or you know, hanging out with
(02:57):
younger men and flirting and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Anyway, all of that details aside.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
I was so proud of this podcast that I had
created all on my own and it was my storytelling
and humor and all of that. And I'm dating this
new guy and I was like, you need to listen
to my new podcast. And I'm not even thinking because
by the time I'm starting to release it, I had
finished the whole thing, and so I'm forgetting about some
of the early episodes and we gosh, we.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Were maybe on our third date or something.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
He picked me up and he was kind of quiet
and kind of distant, and I don't remember what I said,
but I was like, you know, what's going on. You
seem a little off. And I was like, you know,
have you been listening to my podcast. I'm just chatting
about my day.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
And he's like, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been listening
to it.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
And I was like oh, and then I was like, oh, wait,
is it kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
He's like yeah, it's sort of uncomfortable. Yeah, And then
I'm like, thinking back, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm
talking about younger men hating on me.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
I was talking about farting in the middle of the
night from eating too much Brussels sprouts, how it can
be difficult for me to orgasm, or body image concerned
and just wantly like so out there, like you know,
these things that you get to know over a long
time period with somebody, not in one fell swoop, and
like the first week and a half of dating them,
(04:10):
and because all of a sudden. It was so cause
I'm so used to talking about these topics and being
comfortable with them, which is not what most people.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Are used to.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Oh, the poor guy doesn't even care that you fought it.
He's like, oh, hot to orgasm?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
How am I going to do that?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
And I was too much right, And he was already
a little like he had looked me up online and
was like, and he's an amazing man, but he's like,
you know so much about sex, like you have videos
on topics. I'm not even sure what the topic is about.
And so he was already feeling a bit intimidated. And
then this podcast dropped and I was like, oh my god,
it's so obvious, and I just didn't like, I just
(04:44):
didn't get it because I was just proud of my work.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Do you know we've we've had similar things over the years,
because I mean when we started this podcast, I was
in a relationship with my now husband, I was and
Britt was single. And Britt would often be like, I
have this really funny story, but I don't want to
tell it in case, you know, one, it might affect
my dating potential, but also the guy I'm dating might
listen to this, and I was like, Brittany, anything for
the content. I am like, why am I always the
(05:09):
sacrificial lamb? Your husband doesn't care.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Laura used to say, tell that really embarrassing thing that happened,
and I was like, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Okay for you.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
You've found your penguin. I was like, I'm still looking
for mine. If I say that, I'm gonna be looking
for a long time.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Yes, And it can absolutely be used against us, or
at least just freak them out.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I like the Marilyn Munroe quote, which is like, if
you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve
me at my best. And I feel like you're just
really putting it all forward.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
So Jen, tell us how does one become a vagina warrior?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And like, what is a vagina warrior? Exactly?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
It's not a worried vagina. Let's just all be sure.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
It's not a That is a specific award I wanted
at a local university a while back, specifically because of
work I had been doing. If you remember the Vagina Monologues,
you remember that was like a long time ago. That
was touring and it was at college campuses and even
Sler had written this play and then gave the rights
for folks that wanted to do it as fun raising
for local domestic violence shelters or sexual assault prevention places.
(06:04):
And I had been I had done a lot of
it locally and had been an actress in it and
also a director. And I had been doing productions of
it at a local university also and actually teaching a
whole semester long course on it. And so my students
ended up nominating me for a special award called the
Vagina Warrior. Oh, fighting for women's voices and women's pleasure
(06:27):
around you know, female sexual empowerment activism.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
How did you get into this yourself in the first place?
Was it because yeah, you know, and we are going
to talk about like the stigma and stuff that is
surrounding this. But is it something that you personally felt
and wanted to make a shift in. Was it an
industry or a I guess a speciality that you fell into,
Like how did this come about?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:47):
So I grew up in Pennsylvania, suburbs of Philadelphia, was
raised Catholic, was definitely raised kind of like a good girl,
and we didn't talk about sexual topics. And in college,
my sophomore year, my roommate became a sexual health peer
educator where you go around to the dorms and do
condom demonstrations and safer sex talks and healthy relationships and so,
(07:08):
I mean and already this was this was thirty two
years ago, already at this point, and I was like,
that group sounds amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
You get to talk about sex. How fun.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
And I still, you know, I had a lot of
shame and embarrassment and fear around the topics. And I
was like, you get to talk about sex, and you
get public speaking skills. So I joined the group just
because it seemed fun and interesting and I could gain
some skills and confidence. And then very quickly I became
fascinated around what people are talking about or not talking
(07:38):
about and how much how much you know, Like we'd
have these young women and we'd do a workshop with
them on a Thursday night about preventing STDs or STIs
and pregnancy and healthy sexual interactions, and they'd be like,
oh my god, I'm never going to have sex without
a condomt again.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I'm going to make sure we talk about this. And
then I'd see them.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
On a Monday morning they'd be like, yeah, I got
drunk Saturday night, and then I was afraid to ask
for it and I didn't want to him to reject me,
and he didn't offer a condom, so they weren't doing it.
Then they're scared, they're not having good sex, they're not
advocating for themselves. And so that realizing that the approaches
I was being taught to teach around sex was.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Very fear based and they weren't working, and.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
That there was so much shame and embarrassment and just
lack of skills and gender role socialization differences around these topics.
And so that's how I really got interested in this
topic thirty two years ago, specifically around the shame, embarrassment
and then women not being able to speak up and
(08:43):
advocate for themselves, whether it's around protection or pleasure or
any of it.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
It's funny that you say it's wild to me you
say this was thirty two years ago. We do a
segment on these podcasts once a week. It's an episode
called ask on Cut people writing the questions. We still
got so many questions all the time. We had one
only a week or so ago that was, you know,
I was having sex with this guy and he didn't
put a condom on, and I was too awkward to ask,
so I just did it, and you know, and we
(09:11):
even said then we're like, it's crazy that we feel
like we've come so far sometimes and then you hear
people write these questions in and we're like, women are
still feeling too uncomfortable in those situations. They're still feeling
shame surrounding asking for a condom or asking for what
they want. What was it like for you, because I
know you do center around shame and you focus on shame.
What was it like for you growing up in this
(09:31):
really religious family, like you said, and then saying, hey,
guess what, I'm not married, but I am going to
start educating people on sex.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Like how did that go down with your community and
your family?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
And things I wouldn't say we were very religious, but
we did go to church. And then around probably I
was around each fourteen or fifteen. Then my mom gave
me the choice, do you want to keep going or not?
And my sister and I and she stopped going. I
continued going some, but I think when I started coming home.
I can remember like the first Thanksgiving after I was
(10:01):
getting trained as a sexual peer educator again I think
much like my podcast with my boyfriend three years ago,
I was just so proud and excited about what I
was doing, and I wanted to share it with my family,
and so I would, you know, pull out a bottle
and be like, oh, here's what we do for our
condom demonstration. So I'd pull out a condom and show
them how to unwind it down on the bottle, and
(10:23):
my grandparents would be there. Some So I think my
parents did somehow a fantastic job of just instilling a
lot of confidence in me and my sister and the
passion to follow what we believed is best. And the
thing that they've always I mean, they're truly my parents
and my sister still my biggest fans in my work.
And the thing that's really been most meaningful to my
(10:43):
parents is how much they know I'm helping people, helping
people talk about what they're afraid to talk about, helping
people have healthier relationships, helping people prevent pregnancies they don't want. Yeah,
So they've always seen the service aspect of it and
my passion around it, and they've encouraged me. So I've
had them on my podcast before and video series and
(11:04):
I've interviewed them and yeah, so even though we did
not talk about these topics at all growing up, they've
come and seen me in the audience of the Vagina
Monologues when I did twenty two different orgasm mones on
stage stressing.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
It's like, it's like that theory where it's like when
you never ever ever let a kid like have any
access to XYZ when they're younger, and then they get
full access to it other shit. Yeah, like you can't
have any alcohol at all, you can't even try it,
and then they're the kid that ends up being like,
you know, the binge drink when they're in the twenties exactly.
I'm so ith that you mentioned something earlier, and it's
something that I even notice as a parent myself with
(11:41):
young children, the way in which we socialize boys versus
girls around anything to do with pleasure or their private
parts or literally just like how we expect boys to
behave differently than girls. Can you talk us through a
little bit about how this starts from a young age,
but also what is that sort of disparity between genders?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yeah, we still it's funny and to your point, Brittany too,
it's like how how is that thirty two years ago
I was saying those situations and we're still in the
same boat today. And so there's something just so deeply
personal about sexual topics, at least as we are treating
them in society that then I feel like there's there's
(12:21):
so much space for judgment and shame, and if we
don't work on that for ourselves, we unwittingly pass it
on to the younger generations. And there seems to be
there's still is very much a gender divide that sex
as we understand it is still often on male terms.
Like if you know, I've had couples come and see
me and the girlfriend or wife will be like, I
(12:43):
take so.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Long to orgasm. I was like, oh, how how long
does it take it?
Speaker 4 (12:46):
She's like, gosh, I don't know, about five minutes or something,
and I was like, oh, that's oh, that's actually amazing,
that's great. But her standard, and both of their standards,
is his one minute to orgasm.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So so much of it is still.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Just a male standard that desires should come up spontaneously
versus be more responsive to the environment, or how much
safety and communication and emotional connection often matters for women,
especially in long term relationships.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
So so much of.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
What we consider normal or sexual dysfunction is how men
do things or how women do things, and we keep
passing that on and that belief that if it's sex
is more normal for boys than girls that are interested,
then there's something wrong with them.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And that's still whether you're you know, directly.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Shaming or saying those things or just not talking about it,
they're going to pick that up from society overall. I
do think right it's normal more so for that boys
will master a boys will touch themselves their penises. Of
course it feels good, you know, of course they were,
But if you're a girl doing it, like what's wrong
with you? You're dirty, you know, you're a slut, You're gonna
ask for it, like there's something wrong with you. And
(13:56):
I still think so many folks have the automatic default
either way and allowing boys and men of course to
be sexual on their own terms, but not allowing the
same for women and girls.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I do find it interesting how you speak about the
fact that like we're kind of are accepting that boys
are going to touch themselves and that men I'm going
to masturbate and when goals do it, that it's something
that we deem as being like definitely unladylike but also
like confusing and the thing that I and I'm going
to be careful about how I, you know, navigate this
because it's definitely a lot of kids do things and
it's not sexual. They're just figuring out their bodies. They're
(14:30):
finding where things are and what goes where and everything else.
And I think that there is this expectation belief that
because boys have a penis, it's there and they're going
to play with it. And I would argue girls do
exactly the same thing. It's just that it's the way
that we communicate with them that it's not the right
thing to do or they shouldn't, you know, And that
I do think creates the shame from a very very
(14:52):
young age that it's it's naughty. I guess is kind
of like the language that surrounds it. But I would
definitely argue that like little girls are a zero difference
to little boys for.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Like reaching down.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yeah, babies will will reach down in their diaper or
when they're getting changed and touched because it feels good,
so yeah, and kids kids will do the same. If
you're touching your biomy. It's your body, but you touch
it and something feels good, then you're like, oh, what
is that.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I'm going to do that?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, I don't know if this is your realm or not.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
But what advice would you have because right now I
would be thinking, Okay, if I was a parent of
a three, four, five, six year old and they were
I saw them in front of the TV with a
hand down their pants, and I'm saying this exact situation
because I was at my friend's house and their little one.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Was doing that, and she looked at me. She's like,
what do I do right now?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Because I don't want to rouse on him because it's
not wrong, but I need to educate him that it's
not something we do and in public, Like, yeah, but
I think that that is something that all parents would
find really interesting and love some education on.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Can you advise on what you is the right thing
to do?
Speaker 4 (15:56):
The best path when I've worked with parents before, seems
to be and is this hard to do.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
When kids are young? But making a clear distinction.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
So first of all, notice your tone of voice and
how you talk about it that just like matter of
fact normal, You're like, oh yeah, everybody you know wants
to touch themselves sometimes because it feels good, So there's
no shame in your voice. And if you have to
practice that on your own or with someone else, do so.
And then the distinction is like, that's something we do
(16:25):
in our rooms alone, that's not something we do in
front of others. And that distinction seems to be helpful
so that they know not to do it in school,
not to do it in the grocery store, because I've
heard these stories. Yeah, and that distinction of like nothing
wrong with that, Yep, that feels good.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
If you ever want to do that, Yeah, you could
just go into your room by yourself, Please be with
your pillow and your stuffed bear or whatever it is
your wepon against What.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Do you think from like an age appropriate perspective, Like
is it a situation where like when you're younger, you
kind of like discover something that feels good. So it's
like that's how most people figure out, Okay, well, then
this is I'm a sexual person and this is something
that I enjoy doing. Or is it usually because you
have the hormone urges and everything else that you start
to kind of like experiment and discover what's going on.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I think it's both, and it really depends on the person.
I think when we're younger, we can just be touching
our body sometimes and we find out like, oh that
that feels good, Like I don't know what that is
necessarily because often nobody's talked to us about it, unfortunately,
but we realize that.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
It feels good.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
As we're aging, then it can be I think once
puberty kicks in and then there is urges and of
like and you don't exactly know what they are, but
if you see somebody kissing, or if you see somebody
that's attractive, you feel more of it, you know, so
you're sort of drawn to folks and then you know,
basically we just stumble about.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
To figure out what works or what doesn't.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
But it's interesting when I think about that, because that
interest in willingness and curiosity about exploring our own body
and new things that feel pleasurable and doing that out
with someone else. I feel like, you know, a lot
of the clients that I work with in my coaching
practice are folks in long term relationships and marriages, and
I feel like so often they learn to default to
(18:11):
what works or what used to work, and just to
check the box or be efficient, and you've got kids,
and you've got school, and you've got household stuff and jobs,
and it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
But our bodies are always changing, and pregnancy and birth
and postpartum and perimenopause and menopause and for on medications
or diseases and men's and women's bodies, we are always changing.
So I wish we had.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
More of that curiosity and that exploration from when we
were younger of just trying to learn and realize, well,
you know what, you got a new body.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
It's always sort of changing.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Like why not go back to that sometimes or with
your partner and create time some you know something I
like to call HNFT happy naked fun time where you
could just explore each other's bodies and talk, but not
necessarily goal, but to learn and grow and be curious
and have fun and see what feels good and how
things shift and change.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
At what age do you think is age appropriate to
start having conversations around your body and around like these,
I guess like things that would pertain to anything that's sexualized,
but with children who might be at a self exploration
age often.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
A much younger age than people think, but because of
the topic of consent and body autonomy, often age three
age four, of actually teaching kids to start paying attention
to do they want to give Aunt Sally a hug
and kiss, you know, when she's given you a birthday present?
Or does she kind of freak you out and you
actually don't want to, And teaching kids that they don't
(19:44):
have to just hug and kiss every adult or anyone
that wants to, but they actually can have some autonomy
in checking in with themselves do they want that?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Does that feel right?
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Otherwise they could give a handshake or they give way
for a fist bump, like there's still ways you can
acknowledge and thank but it shouldn't have to be that
we have to allow somebody into the boundaries of our
space to do so, and so often that I mean,
I know that's what we were taught growing up, and
that was just normal.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
That's what you did, because it's rude if you don't
do it.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
So at an early age, teaching kids that type of
war and including you know, with their parents, like, hey,
if you don't want to hug at nighttime, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
We could do other things.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
But when we normalize at such a young age, that
they have a right to whoever comes into their body space.
You know, they become teenagers and like, of course that's
just normalized for themselves and that they wouldn't want to
violate that for someone else. So I think that at
a young age and then generally around age eight or so,
(20:44):
really starting to talk about body changes, puberty changes, and
boys and girls, because it's not uncommon for girls to
start getting their periods by age nine potentially, and so
I think for boys and girls to know what their
bodies and other bo are going through, and then again
teaching it in a non shaming, normalizing way so that
(21:04):
they aren't making fun of other kids and they don't
feel shamed for themselves also, and they're not freaked out
when something happens or they have ejaculation at nighttime and
a wet dream, or they get their period for the
first time, or a friend's talking about a tampon or something.
So this normalization so that they are kind to themselves
and they're kind to each other.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
Moving away from kids into adulthood, what percentage of your
clients would you say come to you with relationship issues
surrounding masturbation, And maybe that is the shame of masturbation
in a relationship. Maybe that is because a partner is
choosing to masturbate more than they are choosing to have sex.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Is it quite a large percentage of people that you
say no.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
That doesn't mean though, that there's not concerns or issues
around masturbation, but they really rarely present with that. I
think in general, particularly in the United States, if I
think if a couple felt like they were having issues
around that, it would often be connected to pornography use
and a belief that in particular, like the husband was
watching too much porn and masturbating like they tend to
(22:06):
be linked. Yeah, and the quote unquote sex porn addiction.
I tend to not use terms like that because I
just because there's so much shame around it.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And if anybody shows up to me with.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Terminology like that or problems like that, they often are
coming from very heavy religious backgrounds, and they have so
much shame around these topics that that takes on a
life of its own. And I've actually found when we
can undo the shame and I can facilitate conversations between
a husband and wife around these topics, then all of
a sudden, this sort of compulsive desire to keep watching
(22:38):
porn or masturbating, it starts to dissipate. So some of
it is like what you resist persists in this shame
spiral that they get stuck in that seems to be
feeding it. So I don't particularly like the term porn
addiction myself, but there can be problematic behaviors that are
pulling a couple apart instead of bringing them together, And
certainly masturbation can be one, because it can be something
(23:01):
that we hide from our partners or we feel shame about,
or they catch us, they walk in and catch us
or something. So I'm always you know, it's not uncommon
that I'll be talking to a couple and they've been together,
you know, twenty years or something, and I'd be like, oh,
so I'm curious, do you masturbate? Do you masturbate? Ask?
And they both kind of freeze and their eyes get big,
(23:22):
and I was like, do you guys ever talk about this?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
They're like, no, no, we've never talked about fans. So
I was like, got it.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I was like, well, it can be really helpful to understand,
you know, desire levels and where the other one is.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
And so yeah, but I like I suddenly feel they're
discomfort in me.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I feel like so sorry that you need to face
your demons, but like how often? And you can now
respond the things that like the porn conversation, And I
understand where you're coming from. We're talking about it and
labeling it as something that might reinforce the shame around it.
But I would dare say, and I know this because
we have it from questions that come in through ask
and cut, not from people who have religious backgrounds, that
(23:58):
people who's partners use it as a tool or it's
almost like the repetition of it becomes habit, and then
the habit is what impacts the ability for them to
have desire in their own relationship because they've already masturbated
three times in a day, there's nothing left in the tank.
And I'm saying this subjectively in terms of what we've
seen through the things that we've been exposed to. It's
(24:20):
definitely seems to be more of an issue with men,
but not so much just because of masturbation. I think
for some people it affects the way in which they
think sex should be, and so then sex takes on
a pawn like effect in the bedroom which affects the
way that everybody in that situation enjoys sex. I myself
(24:40):
has definitely been in a relationship with someone who only
had sex as though he was in a porno and
it was awful. But I was also really young and
I had no benchmark for what was normal sex either.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yes, I agree with everything you just said there.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
So I do think depending on the age you first
started watching porn, how much you watch, how much real
experience folks have had, We'll say young men in particular,
like real women, real bodies who don't just orgasm on demand,
or who don't want to be choked, or who at
least would want to have a conversation first. Yes, I
think there's absolutely problematic aspects, and because our sex education
(25:16):
in general isn't great, that that really does. Because porn
is so visceral, it feels so real, So you can
have adults or others saying porn isn't real, but it
is real people having actual sexual encounters, and it's so
visceral we feel it in is it's hard not to
become programmed of like, oh, I guess this is what
you do.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I guess this is what pleases someone else. So in general.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
You know, if I'm working with folks around that they
feel like they may be masturbating too much or watching
too much pornography. The main issue of like the too
much is it putting a distance between you and your
partner because you were turning to that instead of turning
towards them. If you are stressed and you are not
coming to your partner to talk through your stress and
you're just using that as an easy and then disconnecting
from your partner, or if you feel some desire and
(26:03):
you're not turning towards your partner who is a willing
sexual partner and is interested, those are Or if it's
interfering with you going to your work or you know,
keeping your job or going to school, or if you're
masturbating in your bathroom at work and could get caught,
those are all clearly anything that could get you in
trouble or that is interfering with your real priorities in life,
(26:26):
including your relationship.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
That's when it's really something to look at.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
You know, you mentioned something just then about how like
sometimes it can affect the way in which we think
the other person experiences pleasure. But I would dare say
that as women, We often deprioritize our pleasure or even
our satisfaction in sexual relationships for the willingness to not
want to offend someone or to be deemed as though
we're doing a good job, or like, we can put
(26:51):
so much focus on pleasuring the other person that we
minimize our own pleasure in order to make sure that
they're having a great time. Why do you think that
this is something that is so gendered?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
I mean, one we learn again, we learn this male
standard of sex. So if I'm not able to orgasm
in a few minutes, then there must be something wrong
with me and as a woman, And I don't want
to be high maintenance or I don't want to feel
rejected by the man, or I don't want to feel
judged or shamed. So some of it is a lack
of education about how bodies work differently and the normalization
(27:25):
again of like men's pleasure not ours. I still think
there's something sort of fundamental that like there's something dirty.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Or wrong with a woman who like wants her own pleasure.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I also think so many this is changing some, but
still young girls and young women are often still socialized
to be nice, yeah, to not rock the boat. To
make others feel bad, and so that could be a
piece because if you have to speak up for your
own desire or for your own pleasure, then if you're
with a male partner, you might hurt his feelings in
(27:56):
some way or hurt his ego. And plus he might
get angry at you or and may lash out in
some way. So I think there's a lot of different factors.
I think some of this is socialization, but I think
some of this is hormone differences. In general, I think
as women we feel things quite deeply, and things that
are social quite deeply.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
And I think that maybe the estrogen in the system.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Actually, frankly, I really do think it is because once
I've worked with so many women in their fifties that
have gone through menopause and now they're like, if all
of you, I'm not taking care of anyone else anymore.
This is about me. Now, I'm not nurturing anybody. I
don't care about alia. So we feel it, we feel
it deeply, and this is why so much of my
work is around mindfulness and where we feel emotions inside us,
(28:44):
whether it's anxiety or fear, or shame or embarrassment or disappointment,
because those ikey feelings. We often have patterns because of
experiencing them in the past and they felt so bad
or the context was very difficult, the relational context that
we then just don't want to feel that, and then
we've got patterns of behavior that doesn't serve us often.
(29:05):
And I think pleasure and asking for pleasure falls into
all of those factors.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
What is the key point where it does become a
big issue? Because people it's fine to masturbate and not
have sex, but when is it not fine?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
So if I had a couple in front of me
that was presenting with this, I.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Would try to ascertain how much sex do they actually
want together or sexual encounters do they want per week
or per month? And is that being met? And are
they And often it's almost impossible in a long term
relationship to not have a higher desire person and a
lower desire person. Even in the beginning, everybody maybe seems
sort of like hot and heavy and everybody feels more
(29:43):
high desire, but that you know, after six months, three years,
seven years, you're going to end up with a higher
desire and a lower desire person.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Almost always totally normal.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
So I would say, are you hitting a middle area
well enough that both of you are feeling connected and
sadd spide with the frequency and the quality.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Of the sex that you're having.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
If that's not happening, then yeah, and I've seen this,
whether it's the woman that's the higher desire or the
man that's higher desire. If you find out that your
partner's masturbating and not coming to you and you're like,
I want this time with you, that really hurts and
is hard.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
So that's a space I play. And even though that.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
Person absolutely has the right to go masturbate if they
want to and right because it's easier, they know what works.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
It's often efficient. Maybe they have their fantasy that they
run through in their head, pull out the favorite vibrator
or whatever. There's nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
But if you guys are in a committed relationship that
you always want to be growing together and that sexual
intimacy is part of that, that's where it can be problematic.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, And I think in those instances, like we can
get lazy with apatnas. And I don't mean just like
lazy with them emotionally, but I mean like, if you
know that something's efficient on your own, it's going to
take you three minutes, and then you know with your
partner there's groundwork, like God, I gotta be nice for
the guy, like you know, like it's more effort and
like we can become complacent. But I guess the long
term outcome of that is is like, well, you could
(31:07):
be alone masturbating, or you could be with a happy
partner who's also fulfilled in the relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
But we also get.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Lazy in sex too, Like totally.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
It's like even when you're like, Okay, let's not masturbate,
let's have sex, but you're like, I know that.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
This position, in this exact move, and this is what's
going to.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Get it done.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So I think we get lazy with like playing.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And on the flip side too, I guess like the
way it can be detrimental in a relationship, how important
is it for people to be masturbating or at least
understanding exploring how their bodies are changing at each phase.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Yes, and I think it can right if you feel it,
because I'll speak for myself as a fifty two year
old perimental puzzle woman who I'm like, I'm not feeling
desire in the same way I'm not feeling arousal in
the same way, and orgasms are more difficult to achieve.
And I, had I not still masturbates sometimes on my own,
even though my desire is much less.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Had I not done that, so I'm like, I wouldn't
know that. I would think like I.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Couldn't do it with my boyfriend specifically, and so that
helped me see and then I started, I'm like, oh,
I think it's time for a new toy, Like my
body has changed. Let me find a new vibrator that
works at an intensity and a vibration that works for me. Now,
I was like, Okay, this is what it is to
be in this changing body, And I felt more confident
(32:23):
explaining that to my boyfriend and describing it and talking
about it so that he knows he's not doing anything wrong.
And he's lovely because I'm always like, oh, is this
taken too long or what's going on? Because I've had
men in the past that are still in my head
and kind of effing with my thoughts sometimes, and he's like, Babe,
are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Nowhere else I want to be. This is amazing. I
don't care.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
I could lay here for hours with you and touching you,
do whatever you need so thankfully I've had that so
I could speak for me in that way that it
really has helped.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's given me confidence and more clarity.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
And what to communicate so that him and I could
be a tea together with my body changing instead of
me caring shame or feeling like I'm broken in some
way or you know that I'll never I can't be
sexual in the same way I used to be, So
we just get to evolve it together as a team.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
And what's your advice to people?
Speaker 5 (33:14):
You know, you hear a lot that people not only
have a reduced desire for sexual experiences and intimacy with
their partner, but on their own as well. So it's
not just that they don't want the sex with a
partner and they're masturbating. They're not doing either. They don't
feel anything, they don't have any interest when they once did.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
We know there's a lot of social.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
Aspects that can influence that, like stress and kids and
fatigue and hormones and whatever else. But what's your advice
for those people to get back on track because a
lot of people think it's a red flag and that
they're broken and something's wrong with them.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, and the thing is.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
It doesn't have to be a red flag, and that
our desire ebbs and flows throughout our lifetime.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
That's totally normal.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I mean, some people will maintain high, some people will
stay low, but often folks will kind of go up
and down. So it doesn't have to be an alarm bell.
If you're healthy, if your relationship is healthy, if you're
giving yourself time to de stress and self care time.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
If you're not.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Doing those things, then that's something to look at because
maybe there's other factors going on, or hormones out of balance,
or you just truly aren't taking enough time for yourself,
or you're not eating.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
As healthy as you could be, or exercising.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
All of those things can feed our desire and our
sense of agency and how we feel about ourselves. So
if we're not creating space, especially as women, if we
are not creating spaces for us to take care of
ourselves in a very holistic way, physical, mental, emotional, social,
potentially spiritual, sexual desire can absolutely much easier fall to
the wayside. So if you really miss it, your desire
(34:45):
and it's problematic in your relationship, also start figuring out
how you can prime your own pump and there's ADIB.
There's audio erotic app out there that are really hot,
that are short stories you can listen to ten minutes,
twenty minutes, well acted, sound effects, everything, and you could
(35:09):
pick it like you know, meeting a stranger on the beach,
or you know group sex or two women or two men,
or you know BDSM of the dominant submission.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
All different categories.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
You can choose, and that can help get your brain stimulated,
because our brain in many ways really is our biggest
sex organ and how do we use that to our advantage?
So that's a good way to use technology to your advantage.
I'll say a side note. I've been telling folks for
the past couple of years since they've become more popular,
since I tried it out the one time, I was like,
(35:41):
good lord, this is hot.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I've a told them.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I was like, you know, you could listen to it
when you're grocery shopping, or when you're you know, driving
home or going to pick up your kids from school,
or doing dishes or you know, driving home from work.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Whatever.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
And so I tasked myself with that. At Christmas time,
I went Christmas shopping while listening to.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
These audiobook I love it.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
I I'm like, I'm fanning myself now because I'm just
thinking it not much makes me blush because I'm so
used to these topics.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
I was blushing.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
I kept taking my headphones out to make sure it
wasn't broadcasting to the old store.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
And that no one else see would be that like
it links to a bluetooth in someone else's car or
something like. That's my fear that I'll be walking around
and it links to like the shopping cent of bluetooth.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
But this is also the same reason why I'm like,
smutty literature has kind of made this real resurgence. And yeah,
there's been lots of talk about it on TikTok and
like our producer producerication, she's been you know, she's spoken
about it in the past as well. Like it really
has found a place. And I think that women are
stimulated in a different way to what men like. I
don't know many men who are reading smutty literature, but
(36:47):
I know a lot of women who do no. And
I guess, like, especially if maybe like you have had
a real dip in your sex drive, like it's probably
a nice easy entry point rather than being like, all right,
trying to about the X max de suction whatever it's called.
You know, it's X Suction seventy nine four, do you know.
I mean like it's just like there's no pressure, you're
just reading.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
I also think sometimes we it's not always as easy,
but sometimes we don't know we want it, and we
think we have no desire until we have it, you know, Like.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I say that. Sometimes it's like you think, yeah, you
need a bit of action first, and then you're like, oh,
I like this, that's right.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
I want to have sex and then heat exactly, And
you're like in your head, you're like, I think of
nothing worse right now, Like, no part of me feels
like it.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
No, probably wants it. I'm tired. But then when you start,
you're like, oh, I actually do want it.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
It does feel good.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I feel sorry for my husband. I'm like very pregnant.
I'm twenty five weeks almost and loss yeah I know,
but like and also like my husband anytime I'm pregnant,
it's like his favorite time of the year, but for me,
not for.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Me, it's his smutty poor yeah pregnant.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah, he's got like a pregnancy kink. And I absolutely
do not. But also like I have no desire none,
but also like I love my husband and I know
I do enjoy sex. So it's like it's only when
I'm like literally in the middle of it that I'm like, oh,
that's right, I like I forgot my god, I really
enjoyed it. Where I well, having a good time now.
But if he just came out to me and was like, hey,
what about tonight, I'd be like, fuck, I want to
(38:09):
go to bed. No, leave me alone. You pessed.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You not even be like, oh no, I don't worry.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Ask you said, don't worry one well, so let me Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
This is actually one of the main things I teach,
particularly when I'm speaking to audiences, whether big audiences are
small groups, is that, particularly for the lower desire person
and often for women, they need to get.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Aroused before desire starts to kick in.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
And so often we've been taught again this is the
male desire arousal pattern that.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Doesn't work for women, especially in long term relationships.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
So we're taught that you're supposed to feel desire and
it should be spontaneous, and then you start touching yourselves,
so you seek out your partner, and then you start
getting arousal, which is blood flow to the genitals in general,
and then you experience orgasm.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
But that is not the case. So often for women
in long term relationship.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
We need to take that leap of faith because we
love our partners because we want that physical sexual connection
with them and we know how important it is. And
then once we get going, as long as our partners
know how to do it, because sometimes I think when
men hear it, because if they're like, if men are like, well,
how would you want somebody to turn you on, They're like,
grab my crotch, and but most women would be like,
(39:22):
please do not grab my cross like that too direct.
So as long as either you can prime your own
pumper or your partner knows what to do to start
getting your body turned on, because so often as women like,
we need to get out of our heads and present
in our body first and then to be able to
be present and open to sexual sensations. So once you
(39:43):
get the arousal going in a safe way that feels right,
then the desire starts kicking in. Then you have more arousal,
then you have more desire, and then you're like, oh right,
I like this.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
It's so much hotter for us, like everyday life it's
just hotter, Like I just waking up with a boner
and being like, all right, cool, So when I have
sex today coming out, wouldn't that be just delightful?
Speaker 1 (40:03):
I don't know if I should talk about it, but
like poor Ben, my husband.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
Sometimes Ben will be like ready and raring to go,
and I'll be.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Like where, how where did that come from? Like you're
just nothing's happening.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
He'll just walk and he's like hit me up, and
I'm like, but I'm like, how did that? I can
understand it in your situation because like you guys have
like intense time together because you don't see each other.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
We're long distance.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
They do long distance, so I kind of get it right,
but also like I don't get it with my husband.
He sees me I was just farting in bed all
night and then like and I.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Know, he's like, the way you were farting last night.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Out of your precious you reminded me of your butt
And now I'm off.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
But yeah, I was one to go separation.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I know exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It really is though, and I think, but I mean,
we've spoken about this before in terms of like it's
not just necessarily about desire. It can be about lots
of things in your relationships. Sometimes you might be feeling
disconnected and less loving towards your partner, and the last
thing I want to do is like show them that
you care about them and love them, because you might
feel annoyed and frustrated by them. You just had to far.
It's almost like the actions precedes the feelings, So you
can't wait for the feelings to spontaneously hit you in
(41:06):
any respect, whether that's you know, just a feeling as
though you're emotionally connected not necessarily physically connected. Sometimes you
have to like put in the groundwork before those feelings
start to reinspire.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
So often because the version of desire that we all
learn is spontaneous, and that's what you're talking about with
your husband, you're like, where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Suddenly? And that is more so maybe what we feel.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Often everybody feels earlier in a relationship with the neurochemicals
of desire. But if you're the lower desire person, you
may very rarely or never have spontaneous desire. You have
what's called responsive desire, that it's responsive to the context
of your life and what's going on around you and
your relationship with your partner. So I like to say,
especially for higher desire folks who just like feel spontaneous desire,
(41:54):
your partner doesn't feel a way, doesn't mean they don't
like you, doesn't mean they're not attracted to you, doesn't
mean your relationship's broken however, or what it does mean
is you need to foreplay is all day long leading
up to it, of creating the context of feeling loved
and connected and seen and appreciated and handholding and quality
time and all these different components depending on whatever it
(42:18):
matters most to the lower desire person, but all of
that matters to create the context so that the responsive
desire can be there, since the spontaneous probably just won't be.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Jen What is your advice to couples And I know
you mentioned it earlier when you say, you know you've
had people that walked in and you were like, well,
how often do you masturbate? And then everyone in the
room is awkward? What is your advice to couples who
just don't speak about these things, who don't speak about masturbation,
Clearly they're probably doing it, but their partner has no
concept of what that looks like for them or what
self pleasure is.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
Yeah, and I think masturbation because it can feel so
personal and so shaming and so taboo.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I think starting with that, if you.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Don't normally talk about sex topics, isn't the best place.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
And so I encourage folks like you know.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
I've got all sorts of worksheets and lists of questions,
or there's those deca cards you can get that are
conversation starters for couples, and there's ones that are spicier
around sexual topics. I say, use something like that, a
list of questions or a deca cards to start normalizing
talking about these topics. And I big fan of couples
of whatever topics you're avoiding but really matter for your relationship.
(43:29):
You set aside a weekly check in for just fifteen
minutes once a week, so that you were normalizing talking
about these topics and you're not brushing it under the
rug anymore. And in this case, what you're doing is
that you're actually building comfort with the discomfort you feel
around these topics, the shame, the embarrassment, the fear of judgment,
the stigma. Start normalizing it and truly at its core
(43:50):
Intimacy is is letting our armor down and being vulnerable
and creating the safe space for someone we love and
care about to do the same. So just talking about
the questions in an open way is intimacy, Like that's
at a core of emotional intimacy. So that's how you
could start building the comfort and then eventually you'll get
to the masturbation topic, but you'll have more skills in it.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
I even jen, thank you so much for coming on today, Laura.
Do you have any other masturbation questions, personal or otherwise.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
No, I'm masturbated out, thank you. But to be fair, like,
I enjoy the insight into this.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And I think I didn't think that's what we can say.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
No, I enjoy it no because I think my perception
around maybe it happens as we get older as well,
because like you just have more not for everyone. It
definitely comes down to your exposure. But I do feel
as though the person I was in my sexual experiences
at twenty was the meek girl who didn't want to
offend anyone and wanted to perform like I would put
(44:50):
on an A plus performance. That was my main and
that was my main priority. I wanted to make sure
that they walked away saying that I was great. It
didn't matter if I had a great time or not.
And it it wasn't until I was sort of, you know,
in my late twenties and definitely into my thirties where
I was like, oh, actually, no, I'm important in this equation,
and probably I do still care about my partner's enjoyment,
but I care about mine as well, you know, like
(45:12):
he can take some control over his enjoyment too. It's
not just my sole job in this equation, and I
think I used to take that burden on completely. So
I find these conversations really helpful because I know there
were so many of our listeners are in the phase
of still wanting to please and not prioritizing themselves and
probably aren't having the type of sex that they want
to be having.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Yes, and maybe their partner wants more passion from them,
but they're like, yeah, but this isn't for me and
this doesn't feel that good.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
So it would be.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Beneficial to both of them to figure out how to
have those conversations.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
We are going to link your website, your socials, and
your book From Madness to Mindfulness reinventing sex for women
for anyone that wants to go and find out more.
Thank you so much for having this.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Absolutely questions are fantastic.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
To get off Ja and everybody go home and masturbates.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
G Johina Warriors go give yourself a hand.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Thanks Jan bigs
Speaker 4 (46:13):
M hmm
This episode was recorded on cameragle Land.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hi guys, and welcome back to another episode of Life Uncut.
I'm Laura, I'm Brittany. Now let me tell you after
listening to this episode today, Well, you might be feeling
something after this. Were you masturbate, you might. Yeah, I
I was gonna be more subtle, Brittany.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
There's nothing subtle about this episode. We're talking pleasure, all right.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
We are talking pleasure. We're talking masturbation. And this is
a topic that is often incredibly taboo, not on our podcast,
but you know, it's something that as well, I think
as women, a lot of us grew up with a
lot of stigma around and discussing it and talking about
it has definitely been something that has come into more
of the social sphere recently. There are a lot of
people online who are discussing female pleasure. I mean, we
(00:52):
interviewed Ellie from Comfortable in her Skin, who is a
really big advocate here in Australia. But still, I think
that it is something that we look at specifically. I
think it's quite gendered. We have different views on it
for female pleasure versus male pleasure, but just in fact,
you know, the reasons why it's something that might be important,
the reason why it's something that is so stigmatized are
(01:13):
all the things we're unpacking on this episode. And we
do have doctor Jen joining us now. She's a sexologist,
she's a ted X speaker, and she's also coined the
vagina Warrior for anyone who needs their vagina being worried.
There it is a warrior. Don't worry your vagina.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
They're not. Your vagina's not worried. It's a warrior. It's
a warrior. Two separate things.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
With over twenty years of experience in the sexual health field,
doctor Jen is here to break it all down for us.
And also, I'm just so fascinated in how someone becomes
an expert on masturbation and they how many hours has
to go into this field of research.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Jen, You're like, what's that diploma? How do you do that?
Speaker 4 (01:54):
Well, it's also a lot of talking about it, so
not always the doing FOT.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, yeah, well, welcome to the Podcat. It's so nice
to have you here. And I know, like we start
our podcast episodes, we're talking about Axland Filtered's. I'm sure
you have an embarrassing story. I wonder if it's related
or not that. Yeah, what is your embarrassing story?
Speaker 4 (02:13):
Guy? It's so funny. I was like, which one do
I choose? But I went as sort of related to
these topics. So I started dating my boyfriend a little
less than three years ago, and it was just and
he's a scientist and like a cancer researcher, so not
at all used to anybody who talks about sex all
the time in such an open way. At the time
(02:36):
when we started dating, I was just releasing a podcast
about trying to feel sexy again, like in my late forties.
At the time, this was, you know, like three years ago.
And how I did this. I did this like eight
day quest or one week quest for myself around trying
to feel desire and trying to be sexy again. And
I talked about dating or you know, hanging out with
(02:57):
younger men and flirting and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Anyway, all of that details aside.
Speaker 4 (03:02):
I was so proud of this podcast that I had
created all on my own and it was my storytelling
and humor and all of that. And I'm dating this
new guy and I was like, you need to listen
to my new podcast. And I'm not even thinking because
by the time I'm starting to release it, I had
finished the whole thing, and so I'm forgetting about some
of the early episodes and we gosh, we.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Were maybe on our third date or something.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
He picked me up and he was kind of quiet
and kind of distant, and I don't remember what I said,
but I was like, you know, what's going on. You
seem a little off. And I was like, you know,
have you been listening to my podcast. I'm just chatting
about my day.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
And he's like, uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been listening
to it.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
And I was like oh, and then I was like, oh, wait,
is it kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
He's like yeah, it's sort of uncomfortable. Yeah, And then
I'm like, thinking back, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm
talking about younger men hating on me.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
I was talking about farting in the middle of the
night from eating too much Brussels sprouts, how it can
be difficult for me to orgasm, or body image concerned
and just wantly like so out there, like you know,
these things that you get to know over a long
time period with somebody, not in one fell swoop, and
like the first week and a half of dating them,
(04:10):
and because all of a sudden. It was so cause
I'm so used to talking about these topics and being
comfortable with them, which is not what most people.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Are used to.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Oh, the poor guy doesn't even care that you fought it.
He's like, oh, hot to orgasm?
Speaker 3 (04:21):
How am I going to do that?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
And I was too much right, And he was already
a little like he had looked me up online and
was like, and he's an amazing man, but he's like,
you know so much about sex, like you have videos
on topics. I'm not even sure what the topic is about.
And so he was already feeling a bit intimidated. And
then this podcast dropped and I was like, oh my god,
it's so obvious, and I just didn't like, I just
(04:44):
didn't get it because I was just proud of my work.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Do you know we've we've had similar things over the years,
because I mean when we started this podcast, I was
in a relationship with my now husband, I was and
Britt was single. And Britt would often be like, I
have this really funny story, but I don't want to
tell it in case, you know, one, it might affect
my dating potential, but also the guy I'm dating might
listen to this, and I was like, Brittany, anything for
the content. I am like, why am I always the
(05:09):
sacrificial lamb? Your husband doesn't care.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Laura used to say, tell that really embarrassing thing that happened,
and I was like, it's.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Okay for you.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
You've found your penguin. I was like, I'm still looking
for mine. If I say that, I'm gonna be looking
for a long time.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Yes, And it can absolutely be used against us, or
at least just freak them out.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
I like the Marilyn Munroe quote, which is like, if
you can't handle me at my worst, you don't deserve
me at my best. And I feel like you're just
really putting it all forward.
Speaker 5 (05:31):
So Jen, tell us how does one become a vagina warrior?
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And like, what is a vagina warrior? Exactly?
Speaker 2 (05:39):
It's not a worried vagina. Let's just all be sure.
Speaker 4 (05:41):
It's not a That is a specific award I wanted
at a local university a while back, specifically because of
work I had been doing. If you remember the Vagina Monologues,
you remember that was like a long time ago. That
was touring and it was at college campuses and even
Sler had written this play and then gave the rights
for folks that wanted to do it as fun raising
for local domestic violence shelters or sexual assault prevention places.
(06:04):
And I had been I had done a lot of
it locally and had been an actress in it and
also a director. And I had been doing productions of
it at a local university also and actually teaching a
whole semester long course on it. And so my students
ended up nominating me for a special award called the
Vagina Warrior. Oh, fighting for women's voices and women's pleasure
(06:27):
around you know, female sexual empowerment activism.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
How did you get into this yourself in the first place?
Was it because yeah, you know, and we are going
to talk about like the stigma and stuff that is
surrounding this. But is it something that you personally felt
and wanted to make a shift in. Was it an
industry or a I guess a speciality that you fell into,
Like how did this come about?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:47):
So I grew up in Pennsylvania, suburbs of Philadelphia, was
raised Catholic, was definitely raised kind of like a good girl,
and we didn't talk about sexual topics. And in college,
my sophomore year, my roommate became a sexual health peer
educator where you go around to the dorms and do
condom demonstrations and safer sex talks and healthy relationships and so,
(07:08):
I mean and already this was this was thirty two
years ago, already at this point, and I was like,
that group sounds amazing.
Speaker 3 (07:16):
You get to talk about sex. How fun.
Speaker 4 (07:17):
And I still, you know, I had a lot of
shame and embarrassment and fear around the topics. And I
was like, you get to talk about sex, and you
get public speaking skills. So I joined the group just
because it seemed fun and interesting and I could gain
some skills and confidence. And then very quickly I became
fascinated around what people are talking about or not talking
(07:38):
about and how much how much you know, Like we'd
have these young women and we'd do a workshop with
them on a Thursday night about preventing STDs or STIs
and pregnancy and healthy sexual interactions, and they'd be like,
oh my god, I'm never going to have sex without
a condomt again.
Speaker 3 (07:55):
I'm going to make sure we talk about this. And
then I'd see them.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
On a Monday morning they'd be like, yeah, I got
drunk Saturday night, and then I was afraid to ask
for it and I didn't want to him to reject me,
and he didn't offer a condom, so they weren't doing it.
Then they're scared, they're not having good sex, they're not
advocating for themselves. And so that realizing that the approaches
I was being taught to teach around sex was.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
Very fear based and they weren't working, and.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
That there was so much shame and embarrassment and just
lack of skills and gender role socialization differences around these topics.
And so that's how I really got interested in this
topic thirty two years ago, specifically around the shame, embarrassment
and then women not being able to speak up and
(08:43):
advocate for themselves, whether it's around protection or pleasure or
any of it.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
It's funny that you say it's wild to me you
say this was thirty two years ago. We do a
segment on these podcasts once a week. It's an episode
called ask on Cut people writing the questions. We still
got so many questions all the time. We had one
only a week or so ago that was, you know,
I was having sex with this guy and he didn't
put a condom on, and I was too awkward to ask,
so I just did it, and you know, and we
(09:11):
even said then we're like, it's crazy that we feel
like we've come so far sometimes and then you hear
people write these questions in and we're like, women are
still feeling too uncomfortable in those situations. They're still feeling
shame surrounding asking for a condom or asking for what
they want. What was it like for you, because I
know you do center around shame and you focus on shame.
What was it like for you growing up in this
(09:31):
really religious family, like you said, and then saying, hey,
guess what, I'm not married, but I am going to
start educating people on sex.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Like how did that go down with your community and
your family?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (09:41):
And things I wouldn't say we were very religious, but
we did go to church. And then around probably I
was around each fourteen or fifteen. Then my mom gave
me the choice, do you want to keep going or not?
And my sister and I and she stopped going. I
continued going some, but I think when I started coming home.
I can remember like the first Thanksgiving after I was
(10:01):
getting trained as a sexual peer educator again I think
much like my podcast with my boyfriend three years ago,
I was just so proud and excited about what I
was doing, and I wanted to share it with my family,
and so I would, you know, pull out a bottle
and be like, oh, here's what we do for our
condom demonstration. So I'd pull out a condom and show
them how to unwind it down on the bottle, and
(10:23):
my grandparents would be there. Some So I think my
parents did somehow a fantastic job of just instilling a
lot of confidence in me and my sister and the
passion to follow what we believed is best. And the
thing that they've always I mean, they're truly my parents
and my sister still my biggest fans in my work.
And the thing that's really been most meaningful to my
(10:43):
parents is how much they know I'm helping people, helping
people talk about what they're afraid to talk about, helping
people have healthier relationships, helping people prevent pregnancies they don't want. Yeah,
So they've always seen the service aspect of it and
my passion around it, and they've encouraged me. So I've
had them on my podcast before and video series and
(11:04):
I've interviewed them and yeah, so even though we did
not talk about these topics at all growing up, they've
come and seen me in the audience of the Vagina
Monologues when I did twenty two different orgasm mones on
stage stressing.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
It's like, it's like that theory where it's like when
you never ever ever let a kid like have any
access to XYZ when they're younger, and then they get
full access to it other shit. Yeah, like you can't
have any alcohol at all, you can't even try it,
and then they're the kid that ends up being like,
you know, the binge drink when they're in the twenties exactly.
I'm so ith that you mentioned something earlier, and it's
something that I even notice as a parent myself with
(11:41):
young children, the way in which we socialize boys versus
girls around anything to do with pleasure or their private
parts or literally just like how we expect boys to
behave differently than girls. Can you talk us through a
little bit about how this starts from a young age,
but also what is that sort of disparity between genders?
Speaker 4 (12:00):
Yeah, we still it's funny and to your point, Brittany too,
it's like how how is that thirty two years ago
I was saying those situations and we're still in the
same boat today. And so there's something just so deeply
personal about sexual topics, at least as we are treating
them in society that then I feel like there's there's
(12:21):
so much space for judgment and shame, and if we
don't work on that for ourselves, we unwittingly pass it
on to the younger generations. And there seems to be
there's still is very much a gender divide that sex
as we understand it is still often on male terms.
Like if you know, I've had couples come and see
me and the girlfriend or wife will be like, I
(12:43):
take so.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Long to orgasm. I was like, oh, how how long
does it take it?
Speaker 4 (12:46):
She's like, gosh, I don't know, about five minutes or something,
and I was like, oh, that's oh, that's actually amazing,
that's great. But her standard, and both of their standards,
is his one minute to orgasm.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
So so much of it is still.
Speaker 4 (13:01):
Just a male standard that desires should come up spontaneously
versus be more responsive to the environment, or how much
safety and communication and emotional connection often matters for women,
especially in long term relationships.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
So so much of.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
What we consider normal or sexual dysfunction is how men
do things or how women do things, and we keep
passing that on and that belief that if it's sex
is more normal for boys than girls that are interested,
then there's something wrong with them.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
And that's still whether you're you know, directly.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
Shaming or saying those things or just not talking about it,
they're going to pick that up from society overall. I
do think right it's normal more so for that boys
will master a boys will touch themselves their penises. Of
course it feels good, you know, of course they were,
But if you're a girl doing it, like what's wrong
with you? You're dirty, you know, you're a slut, You're gonna
ask for it, like there's something wrong with you. And
(13:56):
I still think so many folks have the automatic default
either way and allowing boys and men of course to
be sexual on their own terms, but not allowing the
same for women and girls.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
I do find it interesting how you speak about the
fact that like we're kind of are accepting that boys
are going to touch themselves and that men I'm going
to masturbate and when goals do it, that it's something
that we deem as being like definitely unladylike but also
like confusing and the thing that I and I'm going
to be careful about how I, you know, navigate this
because it's definitely a lot of kids do things and
it's not sexual. They're just figuring out their bodies. They're
(14:30):
finding where things are and what goes where and everything else.
And I think that there is this expectation belief that
because boys have a penis, it's there and they're going
to play with it. And I would argue girls do
exactly the same thing. It's just that it's the way
that we communicate with them that it's not the right
thing to do or they shouldn't, you know, And that
I do think creates the shame from a very very
(14:52):
young age that it's it's naughty. I guess is kind
of like the language that surrounds it. But I would
definitely argue that like little girls are a zero difference
to little boys for.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Like reaching down.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
Yeah, babies will will reach down in their diaper or
when they're getting changed and touched because it feels good,
so yeah, and kids kids will do the same. If
you're touching your biomy. It's your body, but you touch
it and something feels good, then you're like, oh, what
is that.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
I'm going to do that?
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, I don't know if this is your realm or not.
Speaker 5 (15:23):
But what advice would you have because right now I
would be thinking, Okay, if I was a parent of
a three, four, five, six year old and they were
I saw them in front of the TV with a
hand down their pants, and I'm saying this exact situation
because I was at my friend's house and their little one.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Was doing that, and she looked at me. She's like,
what do I do right now?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Because I don't want to rouse on him because it's
not wrong, but I need to educate him that it's
not something we do and in public, Like, yeah, but
I think that that is something that all parents would
find really interesting and love some education on.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Can you advise on what you is the right thing
to do?
Speaker 4 (15:56):
The best path when I've worked with parents before, seems
to be and is this hard to do.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
When kids are young? But making a clear distinction.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
So first of all, notice your tone of voice and
how you talk about it that just like matter of
fact normal, You're like, oh yeah, everybody you know wants
to touch themselves sometimes because it feels good, So there's
no shame in your voice. And if you have to
practice that on your own or with someone else, do so.
And then the distinction is like, that's something we do
(16:25):
in our rooms alone, that's not something we do in
front of others. And that distinction seems to be helpful
so that they know not to do it in school,
not to do it in the grocery store, because I've
heard these stories. Yeah, and that distinction of like nothing
wrong with that, Yep, that feels good.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
If you ever want to do that, Yeah, you could
just go into your room by yourself, Please be with
your pillow and your stuffed bear or whatever it is
your wepon against What.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Do you think from like an age appropriate perspective, Like
is it a situation where like when you're younger, you
kind of like discover something that feels good. So it's
like that's how most people figure out, Okay, well, then
this is I'm a sexual person and this is something
that I enjoy doing. Or is it usually because you
have the hormone urges and everything else that you start
to kind of like experiment and discover what's going on.
Speaker 4 (17:11):
I think it's both, and it really depends on the person.
I think when we're younger, we can just be touching
our body sometimes and we find out like, oh that
that feels good, Like I don't know what that is
necessarily because often nobody's talked to us about it, unfortunately,
but we realize that.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
It feels good.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
As we're aging, then it can be I think once
puberty kicks in and then there is urges and of
like and you don't exactly know what they are, but
if you see somebody kissing, or if you see somebody
that's attractive, you feel more of it, you know, so
you're sort of drawn to folks and then you know,
basically we just stumble about.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
To figure out what works or what doesn't.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
But it's interesting when I think about that, because that
interest in willingness and curiosity about exploring our own body
and new things that feel pleasurable and doing that out
with someone else. I feel like, you know, a lot
of the clients that I work with in my coaching
practice are folks in long term relationships and marriages, and
I feel like so often they learn to default to
(18:11):
what works or what used to work, and just to
check the box or be efficient, and you've got kids,
and you've got school, and you've got household stuff and jobs,
and it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (18:22):
But our bodies are always changing, and pregnancy and birth
and postpartum and perimenopause and menopause and for on medications
or diseases and men's and women's bodies, we are always changing.
So I wish we had.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
More of that curiosity and that exploration from when we
were younger of just trying to learn and realize, well,
you know what, you got a new body.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
It's always sort of changing.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
Like why not go back to that sometimes or with
your partner and create time some you know something I
like to call HNFT happy naked fun time where you
could just explore each other's bodies and talk, but not
necessarily goal, but to learn and grow and be curious
and have fun and see what feels good and how
things shift and change.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
At what age do you think is age appropriate to
start having conversations around your body and around like these,
I guess like things that would pertain to anything that's sexualized,
but with children who might be at a self exploration
age often.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
A much younger age than people think, but because of
the topic of consent and body autonomy, often age three
age four, of actually teaching kids to start paying attention
to do they want to give Aunt Sally a hug
and kiss, you know, when she's given you a birthday present?
Or does she kind of freak you out and you
actually don't want to, And teaching kids that they don't
(19:44):
have to just hug and kiss every adult or anyone
that wants to, but they actually can have some autonomy
in checking in with themselves do they want that?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Does that feel right?
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Otherwise they could give a handshake or they give way
for a fist bump, like there's still ways you can
acknowledge and thank but it shouldn't have to be that
we have to allow somebody into the boundaries of our
space to do so, and so often that I mean,
I know that's what we were taught growing up, and
that was just normal.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
That's what you did, because it's rude if you don't
do it.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
So at an early age, teaching kids that type of
war and including you know, with their parents, like, hey,
if you don't want to hug at nighttime, that's okay.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
We could do other things.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
But when we normalize at such a young age, that
they have a right to whoever comes into their body space.
You know, they become teenagers and like, of course that's
just normalized for themselves and that they wouldn't want to
violate that for someone else. So I think that at
a young age and then generally around age eight or so,
(20:44):
really starting to talk about body changes, puberty changes, and
boys and girls, because it's not uncommon for girls to
start getting their periods by age nine potentially, and so
I think for boys and girls to know what their
bodies and other bo are going through, and then again
teaching it in a non shaming, normalizing way so that
(21:04):
they aren't making fun of other kids and they don't
feel shamed for themselves also, and they're not freaked out
when something happens or they have ejaculation at nighttime and
a wet dream, or they get their period for the
first time, or a friend's talking about a tampon or something.
So this normalization so that they are kind to themselves
and they're kind to each other.
Speaker 5 (21:24):
Moving away from kids into adulthood, what percentage of your
clients would you say come to you with relationship issues
surrounding masturbation, And maybe that is the shame of masturbation
in a relationship. Maybe that is because a partner is
choosing to masturbate more than they are choosing to have sex.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Is it quite a large percentage of people that you
say no.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
That doesn't mean though, that there's not concerns or issues
around masturbation, but they really rarely present with that. I
think in general, particularly in the United States, if I
think if a couple felt like they were having issues
around that, it would often be connected to pornography use
and a belief that in particular, like the husband was
watching too much porn and masturbating like they tend to
(22:06):
be linked. Yeah, and the quote unquote sex porn addiction.
I tend to not use terms like that because I
just because there's so much shame around it.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And if anybody shows up to me with.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Terminology like that or problems like that, they often are
coming from very heavy religious backgrounds, and they have so
much shame around these topics that that takes on a
life of its own. And I've actually found when we
can undo the shame and I can facilitate conversations between
a husband and wife around these topics, then all of
a sudden, this sort of compulsive desire to keep watching
(22:38):
porn or masturbating, it starts to dissipate. So some of
it is like what you resist persists in this shame
spiral that they get stuck in that seems to be
feeding it. So I don't particularly like the term porn
addiction myself, but there can be problematic behaviors that are
pulling a couple apart instead of bringing them together, And
certainly masturbation can be one, because it can be something
(23:01):
that we hide from our partners or we feel shame about,
or they catch us, they walk in and catch us
or something. So I'm always you know, it's not uncommon
that I'll be talking to a couple and they've been together,
you know, twenty years or something, and I'd be like, oh,
so I'm curious, do you masturbate? Do you masturbate? Ask?
And they both kind of freeze and their eyes get big,
(23:22):
and I was like, do you guys ever talk about this?
Speaker 3 (23:24):
They're like, no, no, we've never talked about fans. So
I was like, got it.
Speaker 4 (23:29):
I was like, well, it can be really helpful to understand,
you know, desire levels and where the other one is.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
And so yeah, but I like I suddenly feel they're
discomfort in me.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I feel like so sorry that you need to face
your demons, but like how often? And you can now
respond the things that like the porn conversation, And I
understand where you're coming from. We're talking about it and
labeling it as something that might reinforce the shame around it.
But I would dare say, and I know this because
we have it from questions that come in through ask
and cut, not from people who have religious backgrounds, that
(23:58):
people who's partners use it as a tool or it's
almost like the repetition of it becomes habit, and then
the habit is what impacts the ability for them to
have desire in their own relationship because they've already masturbated
three times in a day, there's nothing left in the tank.
And I'm saying this subjectively in terms of what we've
seen through the things that we've been exposed to. It's
(24:20):
definitely seems to be more of an issue with men,
but not so much just because of masturbation. I think
for some people it affects the way in which they
think sex should be, and so then sex takes on
a pawn like effect in the bedroom which affects the
way that everybody in that situation enjoys sex. I myself
(24:40):
has definitely been in a relationship with someone who only
had sex as though he was in a porno and
it was awful. But I was also really young and
I had no benchmark for what was normal sex either.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yes, I agree with everything you just said there.
Speaker 4 (24:53):
So I do think depending on the age you first
started watching porn, how much you watch, how much real
experience folks have had, We'll say young men in particular,
like real women, real bodies who don't just orgasm on demand,
or who don't want to be choked, or who at
least would want to have a conversation first. Yes, I
think there's absolutely problematic aspects, and because our sex education
(25:16):
in general isn't great, that that really does. Because porn
is so visceral, it feels so real, So you can
have adults or others saying porn isn't real, but it
is real people having actual sexual encounters, and it's so
visceral we feel it in is it's hard not to
become programmed of like, oh, I guess this is what
you do.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I guess this is what pleases someone else. So in general.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
You know, if I'm working with folks around that they
feel like they may be masturbating too much or watching
too much pornography. The main issue of like the too
much is it putting a distance between you and your
partner because you were turning to that instead of turning
towards them. If you are stressed and you are not
coming to your partner to talk through your stress and
you're just using that as an easy and then disconnecting
from your partner, or if you feel some desire and
(26:03):
you're not turning towards your partner who is a willing
sexual partner and is interested, those are Or if it's
interfering with you going to your work or you know,
keeping your job or going to school, or if you're
masturbating in your bathroom at work and could get caught,
those are all clearly anything that could get you in
trouble or that is interfering with your real priorities in life,
(26:26):
including your relationship.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
That's when it's really something to look at.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
You know, you mentioned something just then about how like
sometimes it can affect the way in which we think
the other person experiences pleasure. But I would dare say
that as women, We often deprioritize our pleasure or even
our satisfaction in sexual relationships for the willingness to not
want to offend someone or to be deemed as though
we're doing a good job, or like, we can put
(26:51):
so much focus on pleasuring the other person that we
minimize our own pleasure in order to make sure that
they're having a great time. Why do you think that
this is something that is so gendered?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
I mean, one we learn again, we learn this male
standard of sex. So if I'm not able to orgasm
in a few minutes, then there must be something wrong
with me and as a woman, And I don't want
to be high maintenance or I don't want to feel
rejected by the man, or I don't want to feel
judged or shamed. So some of it is a lack
of education about how bodies work differently and the normalization
(27:25):
again of like men's pleasure not ours. I still think
there's something sort of fundamental that like there's something dirty.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Or wrong with a woman who like wants her own pleasure.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
I also think so many this is changing some, but
still young girls and young women are often still socialized
to be nice, yeah, to not rock the boat. To
make others feel bad, and so that could be a
piece because if you have to speak up for your
own desire or for your own pleasure, then if you're
with a male partner, you might hurt his feelings in
(27:56):
some way or hurt his ego. And plus he might
get angry at you or and may lash out in
some way. So I think there's a lot of different factors.
I think some of this is socialization, but I think
some of this is hormone differences. In general, I think
as women we feel things quite deeply, and things that
are social quite deeply.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
And I think that maybe the estrogen in the system.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Actually, frankly, I really do think it is because once
I've worked with so many women in their fifties that
have gone through menopause and now they're like, if all
of you, I'm not taking care of anyone else anymore.
This is about me. Now, I'm not nurturing anybody. I
don't care about alia. So we feel it, we feel
it deeply, and this is why so much of my
work is around mindfulness and where we feel emotions inside us,
(28:44):
whether it's anxiety or fear, or shame or embarrassment or disappointment,
because those ikey feelings. We often have patterns because of
experiencing them in the past and they felt so bad
or the context was very difficult, the relational context that
we then just don't want to feel that, and then
we've got patterns of behavior that doesn't serve us often.
(29:05):
And I think pleasure and asking for pleasure falls into
all of those factors.
Speaker 5 (29:11):
What is the key point where it does become a
big issue? Because people it's fine to masturbate and not
have sex, but when is it not fine?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
So if I had a couple in front of me
that was presenting with this, I.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
Would try to ascertain how much sex do they actually
want together or sexual encounters do they want per week
or per month? And is that being met? And are
they And often it's almost impossible in a long term
relationship to not have a higher desire person and a
lower desire person. Even in the beginning, everybody maybe seems
sort of like hot and heavy and everybody feels more
(29:43):
high desire, but that you know, after six months, three years,
seven years, you're going to end up with a higher
desire and a lower desire person.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Almost always totally normal.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
So I would say, are you hitting a middle area
well enough that both of you are feeling connected and
sadd spide with the frequency and the quality.
Speaker 3 (30:03):
Of the sex that you're having.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
If that's not happening, then yeah, and I've seen this,
whether it's the woman that's the higher desire or the
man that's higher desire. If you find out that your
partner's masturbating and not coming to you and you're like,
I want this time with you, that really hurts and
is hard.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
So that's a space I play. And even though that.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
Person absolutely has the right to go masturbate if they
want to and right because it's easier, they know what works.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
It's often efficient. Maybe they have their fantasy that they
run through in their head, pull out the favorite vibrator
or whatever. There's nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
But if you guys are in a committed relationship that
you always want to be growing together and that sexual
intimacy is part of that, that's where it can be problematic.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah, And I think in those instances, like we can
get lazy with apatnas. And I don't mean just like
lazy with them emotionally, but I mean like, if you
know that something's efficient on your own, it's going to
take you three minutes, and then you know with your
partner there's groundwork, like God, I gotta be nice for
the guy, like you know, like it's more effort and
like we can become complacent. But I guess the long
term outcome of that is is like, well, you could
(31:07):
be alone masturbating, or you could be with a happy
partner who's also fulfilled in the relationship.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
But we also get.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Lazy in sex too, Like totally.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
It's like even when you're like, Okay, let's not masturbate,
let's have sex, but you're like, I know that.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
This position, in this exact move, and this is what's
going to.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
Get it done.
Speaker 1 (31:22):
So I think we get lazy with like playing.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And on the flip side too, I guess like the
way it can be detrimental in a relationship, how important
is it for people to be masturbating or at least
understanding exploring how their bodies are changing at each phase.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Yes, and I think it can right if you feel it,
because I'll speak for myself as a fifty two year
old perimental puzzle woman who I'm like, I'm not feeling
desire in the same way I'm not feeling arousal in
the same way, and orgasms are more difficult to achieve.
And I, had I not still masturbates sometimes on my own,
even though my desire is much less.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
Had I not done that, so I'm like, I wouldn't
know that. I would think like I.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Couldn't do it with my boyfriend specifically, and so that
helped me see and then I started, I'm like, oh,
I think it's time for a new toy, Like my
body has changed. Let me find a new vibrator that
works at an intensity and a vibration that works for me. Now,
I was like, Okay, this is what it is to
be in this changing body, And I felt more confident
(32:23):
explaining that to my boyfriend and describing it and talking
about it so that he knows he's not doing anything wrong.
And he's lovely because I'm always like, oh, is this
taken too long or what's going on? Because I've had
men in the past that are still in my head
and kind of effing with my thoughts sometimes, and he's like, Babe,
are you kidding?
Speaker 3 (32:40):
Nowhere else I want to be. This is amazing. I
don't care.
Speaker 4 (32:44):
I could lay here for hours with you and touching you,
do whatever you need so thankfully I've had that so
I could speak for me in that way that it
really has helped.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
It's given me confidence and more clarity.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
And what to communicate so that him and I could
be a tea together with my body changing instead of
me caring shame or feeling like I'm broken in some
way or you know that I'll never I can't be
sexual in the same way I used to be, So
we just get to evolve it together as a team.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
And what's your advice to people?
Speaker 5 (33:14):
You know, you hear a lot that people not only
have a reduced desire for sexual experiences and intimacy with
their partner, but on their own as well. So it's
not just that they don't want the sex with a
partner and they're masturbating. They're not doing either. They don't
feel anything, they don't have any interest when they once did.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
We know there's a lot of social.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
Aspects that can influence that, like stress and kids and
fatigue and hormones and whatever else. But what's your advice
for those people to get back on track because a
lot of people think it's a red flag and that
they're broken and something's wrong with them.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
Yeah, and the thing is.
Speaker 4 (33:44):
It doesn't have to be a red flag, and that
our desire ebbs and flows throughout our lifetime.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
That's totally normal.
Speaker 4 (33:50):
I mean, some people will maintain high, some people will
stay low, but often folks will kind of go up
and down. So it doesn't have to be an alarm bell.
If you're healthy, if your relationship is healthy, if you're
giving yourself time to de stress and self care time.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
If you're not.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Doing those things, then that's something to look at because
maybe there's other factors going on, or hormones out of balance,
or you just truly aren't taking enough time for yourself,
or you're not eating.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
As healthy as you could be, or exercising.
Speaker 4 (34:21):
All of those things can feed our desire and our
sense of agency and how we feel about ourselves. So
if we're not creating space, especially as women, if we
are not creating spaces for us to take care of
ourselves in a very holistic way, physical, mental, emotional, social,
potentially spiritual, sexual desire can absolutely much easier fall to
the wayside. So if you really miss it, your desire
(34:45):
and it's problematic in your relationship, also start figuring out
how you can prime your own pump and there's ADIB.
There's audio erotic app out there that are really hot,
that are short stories you can listen to ten minutes,
twenty minutes, well acted, sound effects, everything, and you could
(35:09):
pick it like you know, meeting a stranger on the beach,
or you know group sex or two women or two men,
or you know BDSM of the dominant submission.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
All different categories.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
You can choose, and that can help get your brain stimulated,
because our brain in many ways really is our biggest
sex organ and how do we use that to our advantage?
So that's a good way to use technology to your advantage.
I'll say a side note. I've been telling folks for
the past couple of years since they've become more popular,
since I tried it out the one time, I was like,
(35:41):
good lord, this is hot.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
I've a told them.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
I was like, you know, you could listen to it
when you're grocery shopping, or when you're you know, driving
home or going to pick up your kids from school,
or doing dishes or you know, driving home from work.
Speaker 3 (35:52):
Whatever.
Speaker 4 (35:52):
And so I tasked myself with that. At Christmas time,
I went Christmas shopping while listening to.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
These audiobook I love it.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (36:02):
I I'm like, I'm fanning myself now because I'm just
thinking it not much makes me blush because I'm so
used to these topics.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
I was blushing.
Speaker 4 (36:12):
I kept taking my headphones out to make sure it
wasn't broadcasting to the old store.
Speaker 5 (36:16):
And that no one else see would be that like
it links to a bluetooth in someone else's car or
something like. That's my fear that I'll be walking around
and it links to like the shopping cent of bluetooth.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
But this is also the same reason why I'm like,
smutty literature has kind of made this real resurgence. And yeah,
there's been lots of talk about it on TikTok and
like our producer producerication, she's been you know, she's spoken
about it in the past as well. Like it really
has found a place. And I think that women are
stimulated in a different way to what men like. I
don't know many men who are reading smutty literature, but
(36:47):
I know a lot of women who do no. And
I guess, like, especially if maybe like you have had
a real dip in your sex drive, like it's probably
a nice easy entry point rather than being like, all right,
trying to about the X max de suction whatever it's called.
You know, it's X Suction seventy nine four, do you know.
I mean like it's just like there's no pressure, you're
just reading.
Speaker 5 (37:08):
I also think sometimes we it's not always as easy,
but sometimes we don't know we want it, and we
think we have no desire until we have it, you know, Like.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
I say that. Sometimes it's like you think, yeah, you
need a bit of action first, and then you're like, oh,
I like this, that's right.
Speaker 5 (37:21):
I want to have sex and then heat exactly, And
you're like in your head, you're like, I think of
nothing worse right now, Like, no part of me feels
like it.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
No, probably wants it. I'm tired. But then when you start,
you're like, oh, I actually do want it.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
It does feel good.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I feel sorry for my husband. I'm like very pregnant.
I'm twenty five weeks almost and loss yeah I know,
but like and also like my husband anytime I'm pregnant,
it's like his favorite time of the year, but for me,
not for.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Me, it's his smutty poor yeah pregnant.
Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah, he's got like a pregnancy kink. And I absolutely
do not. But also like I have no desire none,
but also like I love my husband and I know
I do enjoy sex. So it's like it's only when
I'm like literally in the middle of it that I'm like, oh,
that's right, I like I forgot my god, I really
enjoyed it. Where I well, having a good time now.
But if he just came out to me and was like, hey,
what about tonight, I'd be like, fuck, I want to
(38:09):
go to bed. No, leave me alone. You pessed.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
You not even be like, oh no, I don't worry.
Speaker 3 (38:14):
Ask you said, don't worry one well, so let me Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:19):
This is actually one of the main things I teach,
particularly when I'm speaking to audiences, whether big audiences are
small groups, is that, particularly for the lower desire person
and often for women, they need to get.
Speaker 3 (38:31):
Aroused before desire starts to kick in.
Speaker 4 (38:33):
And so often we've been taught again this is the
male desire arousal pattern that.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Doesn't work for women, especially in long term relationships.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
So we're taught that you're supposed to feel desire and
it should be spontaneous, and then you start touching yourselves,
so you seek out your partner, and then you start
getting arousal, which is blood flow to the genitals in general,
and then you experience orgasm.
Speaker 3 (38:56):
But that is not the case. So often for women
in long term relationship.
Speaker 4 (39:00):
We need to take that leap of faith because we
love our partners because we want that physical sexual connection
with them and we know how important it is. And
then once we get going, as long as our partners
know how to do it, because sometimes I think when
men hear it, because if they're like, if men are like, well,
how would you want somebody to turn you on, They're like,
grab my crotch, and but most women would be like,
(39:22):
please do not grab my cross like that too direct.
So as long as either you can prime your own
pumper or your partner knows what to do to start
getting your body turned on, because so often as women like,
we need to get out of our heads and present
in our body first and then to be able to
be present and open to sexual sensations. So once you
(39:43):
get the arousal going in a safe way that feels right,
then the desire starts kicking in. Then you have more arousal,
then you have more desire, and then you're like, oh right,
I like this.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
It's so much hotter for us, like everyday life it's
just hotter, Like I just waking up with a boner
and being like, all right, cool, So when I have
sex today coming out, wouldn't that be just delightful?
Speaker 1 (40:03):
I don't know if I should talk about it, but
like poor Ben, my husband.
Speaker 5 (40:06):
Sometimes Ben will be like ready and raring to go,
and I'll be.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
Like where, how where did that come from? Like you're
just nothing's happening.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
He'll just walk and he's like hit me up, and
I'm like, but I'm like, how did that? I can
understand it in your situation because like you guys have
like intense time together because you don't see each other.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
We're long distance.
Speaker 2 (40:23):
They do long distance, so I kind of get it right,
but also like I don't get it with my husband.
He sees me I was just farting in bed all
night and then like and I.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
Know, he's like, the way you were farting last night.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Out of your precious you reminded me of your butt
And now I'm off.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
But yeah, I was one to go separation.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I know exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It really is though, and I think, but I mean,
we've spoken about this before in terms of like it's
not just necessarily about desire. It can be about lots
of things in your relationships. Sometimes you might be feeling
disconnected and less loving towards your partner, and the last
thing I want to do is like show them that
you care about them and love them, because you might
feel annoyed and frustrated by them. You just had to far.
It's almost like the actions precedes the feelings, So you
can't wait for the feelings to spontaneously hit you in
(41:06):
any respect, whether that's you know, just a feeling as
though you're emotionally connected not necessarily physically connected. Sometimes you
have to like put in the groundwork before those feelings
start to reinspire.
Speaker 4 (41:18):
So often because the version of desire that we all
learn is spontaneous, and that's what you're talking about with
your husband, you're like, where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (41:25):
Suddenly? And that is more so maybe what we feel.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Often everybody feels earlier in a relationship with the neurochemicals
of desire. But if you're the lower desire person, you
may very rarely or never have spontaneous desire. You have
what's called responsive desire, that it's responsive to the context
of your life and what's going on around you and
your relationship with your partner. So I like to say,
especially for higher desire folks who just like feel spontaneous desire,
(41:54):
your partner doesn't feel a way, doesn't mean they don't
like you, doesn't mean they're not attracted to you, doesn't
mean your relationship's broken however, or what it does mean
is you need to foreplay is all day long leading
up to it, of creating the context of feeling loved
and connected and seen and appreciated and handholding and quality
time and all these different components depending on whatever it
(42:18):
matters most to the lower desire person, but all of
that matters to create the context so that the responsive
desire can be there, since the spontaneous probably just won't be.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Jen What is your advice to couples And I know
you mentioned it earlier when you say, you know you've
had people that walked in and you were like, well,
how often do you masturbate? And then everyone in the
room is awkward? What is your advice to couples who
just don't speak about these things, who don't speak about masturbation,
Clearly they're probably doing it, but their partner has no
concept of what that looks like for them or what
self pleasure is.
Speaker 4 (42:51):
Yeah, and I think masturbation because it can feel so
personal and so shaming and so taboo.
Speaker 3 (42:58):
I think starting with that, if you.
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Don't normally talk about sex topics, isn't the best place.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
And so I encourage folks like you know.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
I've got all sorts of worksheets and lists of questions,
or there's those deca cards you can get that are
conversation starters for couples, and there's ones that are spicier
around sexual topics. I say, use something like that, a
list of questions or a deca cards to start normalizing
talking about these topics. And I big fan of couples
of whatever topics you're avoiding but really matter for your relationship.
(43:29):
You set aside a weekly check in for just fifteen
minutes once a week, so that you were normalizing talking
about these topics and you're not brushing it under the
rug anymore. And in this case, what you're doing is
that you're actually building comfort with the discomfort you feel
around these topics, the shame, the embarrassment, the fear of judgment,
the stigma. Start normalizing it and truly at its core
(43:50):
Intimacy is is letting our armor down and being vulnerable
and creating the safe space for someone we love and
care about to do the same. So just talking about
the questions in an open way is intimacy, Like that's
at a core of emotional intimacy. So that's how you
could start building the comfort and then eventually you'll get
to the masturbation topic, but you'll have more skills in it.
Speaker 5 (44:12):
I even jen, thank you so much for coming on today, Laura.
Do you have any other masturbation questions, personal or otherwise.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
No, I'm masturbated out, thank you. But to be fair, like,
I enjoy the insight into this.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
And I think I didn't think that's what we can say.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
No, I enjoy it no because I think my perception
around maybe it happens as we get older as well,
because like you just have more not for everyone. It
definitely comes down to your exposure. But I do feel
as though the person I was in my sexual experiences
at twenty was the meek girl who didn't want to
offend anyone and wanted to perform like I would put
(44:50):
on an A plus performance. That was my main and
that was my main priority. I wanted to make sure
that they walked away saying that I was great. It
didn't matter if I had a great time or not.
And it it wasn't until I was sort of, you know,
in my late twenties and definitely into my thirties where
I was like, oh, actually, no, I'm important in this equation,
and probably I do still care about my partner's enjoyment,
but I care about mine as well, you know, like
(45:12):
he can take some control over his enjoyment too. It's
not just my sole job in this equation, and I
think I used to take that burden on completely. So
I find these conversations really helpful because I know there
were so many of our listeners are in the phase
of still wanting to please and not prioritizing themselves and
probably aren't having the type of sex that they want
to be having.
Speaker 4 (45:32):
Yes, and maybe their partner wants more passion from them,
but they're like, yeah, but this isn't for me and
this doesn't feel that good.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
So it would be.
Speaker 4 (45:40):
Beneficial to both of them to figure out how to
have those conversations.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
We are going to link your website, your socials, and
your book From Madness to Mindfulness reinventing sex for women
for anyone that wants to go and find out more.
Thank you so much for having this.
Speaker 3 (45:55):
Absolutely questions are fantastic.
Speaker 2 (45:57):
To get off Ja and everybody go home and masturbates.
Speaker 3 (46:00):
G Johina Warriors go give yourself a hand.
Speaker 2 (46:04):
Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
Thanks Jan bigs
Speaker 4 (46:13):
M hmm
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com