February 4, 2025 • 56 mins
Can men and women really be just friends? It’s one of the most debated relationship questions, and we’re diving deep into the dynamics, boundaries, and unspoken rules of opposite-sex friendships—especially when romance is in the picture.
In this episode, we’re tackling:
- The challenges and benefits of male-female friendships - How opposite-sex friendships shift when you’re in a relationship - Setting healthy boundaries—what’s okay and what crosses the line? - Personal stories and real-life experiences that will make you rethink your take
Should you still text that “old buddy” when you’re in a new romance? Can you make new opposite-sex friends when you’re coupled up? We’re breaking it all down with honesty, humor, and real talk.
Connect with us on Instagram: @artofclassiness
Submit your own stories for future episodes! artofclassiness@gmail.com
Quick disclaimer, friends – we're not doctors, just two people who love to share ideas and experiences. This podcast is for fun and informational purposes only. It's not meant to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. If you have questions about your health, definitely reach out to your doctor or a qualified health professional. Take care of yourselves and use what feels right for you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Robin (00:08):
welcome to The Art of classiness podcast, a show where we redefine what it means to be a classy lady and sometimes it's messy. I'm Robin and
Deborah (00:18):
I'm Deborah, two friends turned classy ladies who are here to discuss life's ups and downs, navigating the complexities of adulthood and how the gift of friendship is essential to belonging.
Robin (00:28):
This week, we're diving into the age old question, Can men and women just be friends? We're exploring both sides of the debate and digging into the unspoken rules for maintaining these friendships, especially when one or both people are in a committed relationship.
Deborah (00:44):
So follow along, give us your feedback, and don't forget to like and subscribe. What's up? Classy Ladies and gentlemen, hello.
Robin (00:54):
How are you, Robin, I'm good. How are you? I am pretty
Deborah (00:59):
good. You know, we've had here in the Midwest. We had what I like to call full spring. Everyone gets excited because the temperatures go up. I mean, they really did. We went from being like, a real feel of negative one to 50 degrees in the span of like, a few days. So definitely whiplash. But don't worry, Midwest, because we're back down to like 17, and then next week, it's going to be 60, like we are just getting jerked all over the place. And the most unfortunate thing about this Robin is that I finally got my professional fleece overalls in, and right when they arrived, it's like it got so warm, I did manage to wear them on one walk, but, man, I like actually want it to get colder so I can truly enjoy the comfort and warmth that these fleece overalls bring to my life. Dude,
Robin (01:53):
just wait. Just wait. How about you? How have you been Seth and I were both hit with the cedar fever last week, and it's rolled over into this week, which, for those of you that don't know what that is, I hope you never find out it's so bad. It's so bad. And I read somewhere that the reason it's so bad is because when they planted these trees, they only did the male species. My gosh. So when they release all that pollen and stuff, like, there's nowhere for it to go, like there's no female version to catch it. See, this is why we
Deborah (02:36):
need de and I now more than ever, especially with trees and agriculture, you just thought that male cedar trees were going to do the job. I don't think so. Bring in some women trees to absorb all the pollen that's being ejected into the air and has nowhere else to go but in your nostrils and in your throat. And then I've heard that it can, like, grow spores in your lungs. I could be making that up. But, like, people get really sick. Like you truly don't know if you're sick with the worst cold of your life, or if you just have an allergic reaction. It's so awful.
Robin (03:12):
It's really awful. It knocks you out, for sure. Like, you're you're not functioning with that. Yeah, it's not your typical allergies at
Deborah (03:21):
all? No, it's really not, and it really does just like, knock you out. Well, are you guys starting to feel better? Though?
Robin (03:28):
Yes, we went to the gym yesterday for the first time in a week, so that was nice. I felt really weak, but it was good to get back in there. Getting
Deborah (03:38):
back in is always the hardest part when you take, like, a break from the gym. I am currently in that space where I'm just like, working up the courage to, like, go back to taking care of myself, for whatever reason, I feel like, very paralyzed. So I'm proud of you for getting back to the gym doing healthy things for yourself. Yay,
Robin (03:58):
healthy. Yay.
Deborah (04:01):
Well, I am excited to dive right into our topic this week, because it is definitely spicy. I know people have a lot of opinions. I have changed my opinion about this topic a lot over the course of my life, and that topic is, Can men and women really just be friends.
Robin (04:22):
Yeah? I mean, this is, this is an ever changing subject, like, where you're at in your life completely dictates the kind of friendships that you have. Yes, and I never really thought about it in this way until we decided to do this as a topic.
Deborah (04:42):
Yeah, well, I think it's probably good to start with just some background of maybe you and I in our history growing up and through adulthood, of how we have had co Ed group of friends or male best friends. So Robin, what was it like for you? You growing up? Did you have a lot of guy friends?
Robin (05:03):
I grew up with two brothers, and so I was already a tomboy. I liked playing sports. I liked playing outside and getting dirty, riding our bikes around, and all the kids in our neighborhood were boys. So I just spent a majority of my childhood playing with a bunch of boys. I will say there is no sexual tension at that time.
Deborah (05:23):
Oh, you mean when you were 10,
Robin (05:25):
but I think I valued that time for that reason. Yeah, like it's innocent, those friendships, then you get to middle school and things change,
Deborah (05:39):
bodies change, hormones change. Yeah, it's a wild time.
Robin (05:44):
Group dynamics change. Absolutely the way that girls are looked at by boys that right there is a huge shift, especially for the girl, because then they feel that energy, yes, oh, yeah. And these guys have no idea what they're doing or saying, Yeah,
Deborah (06:00):
hormones take the wheel in middle school, and everybody goes feral and crazy in a very quick period of time. So through that, did you still have like, guy friends? Were you still, like, hanging around with the boys?
Robin (06:14):
Yeah, I was in band. So it's easier to have those kinds of guy friends. Like you're just, you're just always around each other. You're doing the same thing. So you hang out in your little groups. Once I got to high school, like those male friendships became very different. Yeah, I felt looked at differently. I struggled to feel like I had a place to fit in, like I was that person that kind of got along with everybody, but not so much that anyone pulled me into their core group, you know? Yeah. So I, you know, I did theater and band. Those were my main extracurriculars. And I just remember the amount of times I had to play dumb when I could tell that a guy was like pulling his moves. They're not classy in high school, I'll tell you that just makes you feel uncomfortable and icky and you're hoping someone else is in the room Absolutely.
Deborah (07:09):
Yeah. I need a witness. Someone notice this, please and pull me from this flirtatious wreckage, please. Yeah, I had kind of somewhat similar experiences, but I would say that I truly did feel like I had guy friends growing up like you mentioned. The neighborhood knows no gender, like when you grow up in a neighborhood that has boys and girls, like I see that in my kids right now. It's like everybody just plays with each other. It's like they're completely unaware that this iceberg is about to hit. Those dynamics, like they just don't know, you know, and there is no like crushes or anything like that. They literally just play with whoever is around and has any type of similar interest. So I had a neighborhood like that, and then going into middle school, I would say, like seventh grade is when the CO Ed hangouts really started happening more between my girlfriends and the different boys. Now I will preface this by saying I literally grew up on an island. The community was very small, and I graduated with about 100 kids, and those kids I literally went to kindergarten with, so everybody knew each other, one middle school, one high school, so you kind of established those relationships pretty early on. And I was a girl that was in a co Ed group of skater boys, nice. I was a baggy jean, flannel shirt, wearing black tattoo choker, like that was the look and style. And so we hung out with, like, kind of the bad boys, the skater boys. They had like chains on their jeans. And we would just do, like, basement Hangouts on the weekend. Birthday parties were always co Ed, like we were the kids that would go to the football game, but like, hang out under the bleachers and like, we were just really entrenched with one another. So cool. No, we were not cool. We were like the rejects that were kicked to the under the bleachers. But I would not say we were like the cool kids. And then high school was very similar. Kind of grew out of the skater boy group and got
(09:25):
into another co Ed group because we all worked at the same ice cream shop called the idol in cafe. And this idol in crew was like, my like, when I think of high school, I think of this group offriends. Two of my best friends to this day were in that group, Leah and Lauren. And you know, we just would always hang with the guys, and we were just super close. We could interchange out with one another, like I could go hang with my friend Justin, and then the next week, like I could hang out with my friend John. And then Steve and like, it was very interchangeable in that way, and I felt totally comfortable around these boys. So for me as an adult, and as you start having more like relationships with men, it was never weird to me if a guy had like girlfriends from high school that they still talked with, or maybe they still were close within college, because I had that similar type of history. But when you're with someone who has never been like friends with women, they sometimes can find those dynamics threatening, which is kind of like what we wanted to unpack today, like, at what point do those relationships become threatening? Okay, so both of us have a history of male female dynamics, whether it's our upbringing and obviously, as you and I worked together in the service industry, you know, we were always around guys as well, whether it was our friends boyfriends or just other random servers and bartenders, like we had a really healthy co Ed group of guys and girls when we were in our 20s. And for this reason, like I said, I think in relationships I've been in where they have maybe expressed, I don't want to say jealousy, but I could tell they were maybe threatened by the fact that I still have guy friends in my life. I just would say, like, this is really all I've ever known, though. Like, I don't know what it's like to not have a guy friend in my life, but now that I'm older and can, like, examine with a little bit more wisdom, looking
(11:39):
back, we were all hooking up with each other. 100%
Robin (11:44):
100%
Deborah (11:45):
those skater boys that we hung out with, I was dating one of them, and I had a crush on another one of them. My my friend Andrew, was dating one of the guys. Like we were hanging out with them because they were our boyfriends, and we were making out with them, and then in high school, like, you know, I ended up dating one of them. You know, we all had made out with each other at one point or another. And even if we weren't like friends, to do that, if at any moment, any one of us girls have been like, Hey, you want to hook up, they would drop everything. They would throw that friendship into the river immediately for a chance to be with us. So that really uncovers the question like, are you really just friends until somebody is willing to cross that line? And
Robin (12:32):
that is the question. It's not like you want to ask anybody that straight up, yeah, especially if it is a friend. For
Deborah (12:39):
sure, you can't go into the middle of a friendship and say, Hey, I just want to be clear, like, we're never going to hook up, right? Yeah? Like, if only if it were that simple to just be like, let's just get this out of the way. Now, you and I are never going to hook up, because even asking that you're like, planting the seed, that it could be a possibility. So it's like, it's always the elephant in the room when you think about male female friendship dynamics,
Robin (13:04):
and it's so difficult, at least from my experience, like we know when a guy has a crush on us, and it's a difficult line to walk, because you really care about that friendship and you want to stay friends with them, But at any point, they could confess their love for you, and that has happened to me, and we never spoke again like this person that I considered my closest friend at the time, and I don't blame him, like I'm sure it was like soul crushing to not have those feelings reciprocated. It just really sucked for me, because I saw him as a genuine friend, and then I lost that friend just because my feelings weren't mutual. And it's like so many male female relationships revolve around one of you having some kind of romantic feelings for the other, whether it's a parent or not, but men and women think very differently, and I find that generally men are talking to you because they find you attractive. They want to sleep with you if y'all become friends in the process, cool, but if an opportunity arises, they will take it. They will absolutely take it. I've been in situations where they took it, yeah? I gave them the opportunity. I opened that door they ran straight through, like the Kool Aid man through a wall, yes, oh, yeah, running
Deborah (14:32):
right to it. Oh, I know. And I think that this is a universal disappointment that a lot of women experience when you realize, like, oh, they were just being nice because they wanted something out of me, and that, I think, is like a betrayal that women experience, that I don't know if men interpret the same way, and for maybe men. The betrayal is in the fact that they're like, I was so nice to you, I was there for you. You know what? I mean, you took advantage of how nice I was to you, and now you don't want to like do things in return, which I think is a really entitled way to see it, yeah, but that is probably the closest thing that they can experience to like that level of betrayal. But nothing is worse than looking back on your entire friendship and realizing like this was all self serving for you? Yeah? None of this was genuine towards a friendship with me, that was a byproduct, but your intention was to do something totally different, and that is, like, such a deep betrayal, yeah?
Robin (15:37):
And then like we're the ones made to feel like we're the wrong. It's like, No, I'm I'm able to set clear boundaries. Mm, hmm, you're not. It seems
Deborah (15:48):
right. Well, let me ask you this, do you think that there's always an underlying attraction? No, when we have male female friendships, I
Robin (15:55):
wouldn't say always. I would say it's more rare. Yeah, yeah. Like, I've listened to men talk about women in excess. Like, I've been with a group of men who have no filter around me. I hear the things they say, yeah. They're always thinking about that. They're always thinking about it. So have you ever hooked up with a guy friend? Yeah? Did I regret it? Yes. Oh,
Deborah (16:24):
okay, did it because it changed your dynamic, it
Robin (16:28):
changed our dynamic, and the sex was just really bad. Also, oh, Mm, hmm. Think we were both drunk. Kind of pretended. It just never happened after that. Sometimes,
Deborah (16:41):
sometimes that's what you got to do. That's what you got to do. It's
Robin (16:44):
like, oh, this was a bad idea. I thought that this would be fun, and it wasn't. I didn't even say the night,
Deborah (16:52):
Adios. Adios. Well, going back to the friendship aspect of it, yeah, I can say that. I don't think I ever crossed that line with somebody who was like a tried and true friend? Now, I will say I did have a small like period of time where a friend of mine and I had been just this was during the days of instant messenger, and I found myself like messaging him, like when I was at work, kind of randomly. And somehow we decided that, like, you know what, we've known each other long enough, both of us are single. If the opportunity ever presented itself, then let's test those waters. And like, we made this decision in, like, a sober mind, not like being drunk, and we're obviously not even in the same area, because we were like instant messaging during a work day, right the early days of the Internet, when, like, you weren't being constantly monitored by everything you were doing. But the opportunity, just like, never presented itself, and we both just kind of like, went on our merry way, but like, that was the closest that I'd ever come to being like, should we cross this line? Would it be weird? I think we could get over the weirdness. This might be, like, a good little arrangement, and then it just never came into fruition. And that was, like, the closest I ever came was like, that type of, like, tried and true, like, let's state the parameters, like, this is what we're going to stick to, but it never came to be. So I don't know that that would have worked in our favor or maybe been super detrimental. Are you friendly? I guess. I mean, I would say that we are friendly. You know, we don't live in the same area, so it's not like somebody that I would we're not on a texting basis. I'll tell you that much. I don't have his number anymore, so I would say, no, okay, but I think if we were living in the same area, he's definitely someone that I would like, probably enjoy hanging out with, you know, yeah, with his wife, because he's married now, like everybody else in
(19:01):
this world, she probably would not like me being friends with him. I'll tell you that much. I wouldn't want my significant other to be active friends with someone that they had once been like, youknow what we should do? Yeah, like, I probably wouldn't want that.
Robin (19:15):
And that's like the test of time scenario where, like, you guys stopped talking for a long time, and now he has a whole new life. So it is weird for you to just insert yourself
Deborah (19:27):
100% Yeah, 100% that's why, yeah, test of time is so important. Now, I do think that obviously, even with female friendships, you know, you kind of come and go out of each other's lives as seasons change. But yeah, it's got to be someone that remembers your birthday, texts you on your birthday, sends you the Holiday Card, gives you the life update, like one of my best guy friends, who's a true guy friend. He's the always the first one to text me on my birthday, and I know now that he has calendar invites for all of his friends birthdays. Is on his phone, which is like, so smart, and it's the first thing he does in the morning is like, boop, here you go. Or sometimes he's like, Hey, I'm traveling tomorrow, so I wanted to text you today, happy birthday. Like that is a true friend, and I do the same for him. You know, I mean someone that I'm always I'm just like, proud to be his friend Absolutely, like, through all of our seasons of life. He's someone that I know we are always going to be there for each other, and that can be threatening to a relationship, and it was threatening to my last relationship, because I had, at one point, flown out to visit this friend, made plans to fly out visit and stay with this friend while I was in this relationship, because I did not see an issue with it at all. I was so like, What do you mean? I should have told you about this. Like, this is one of my best friends, and I wasn't with somebody who was like, controlling or hyper jealous, but he made it very clear that he was a little uncomfortable with the idea that I would be staying in another man's apartment that I had known since college. At one point, I even was like, should I stay in a hotel? Like, am I the asshole? Am I actually the one who's in the wrong by doing this, would I feel the same way if he was flying to visit a girl and staying with her, I don't know. And that is really when I first started wondering, like, can you still maintain co Ed relationships
(21:39):
when you are in a long term relationship, what do you think? I
Robin (21:43):
think you can absolutely it's just setting clear boundaries. And in that scenario, you know, when we're single, it's easier to hang out with groups where, you know, some of the guys have a crush on you at that point. I don't think it's appropriate for you to be around those people, right? Because it's just out of respect for your partner. Yeah,
Deborah (22:13):
and I see I really struggled how honest I should be with guy friends about those boundaries. So, I mean, I'll just, like, say, right here, I am currently going through a breakup, which sucks. I shouldn't say going through because, like, it's, it's over, like that. There's no, we're not discussing it anymore, like we're done, and I don't want to get I'm not obviously going to air out any laundry, but in this last relationship, is really where I started thinking more about whether or not I should maintain, like, male friendships, because it did make him a little heightened. I would say, not like, ever angry, but like, I could tell it wasn't something that he loved, and you never want to do something to your partner when you know that they don't like it at all. And I would have guys during my relationship be like, hey, like, let's catch up. Like, let's meet for coffee sometime. And I would just have this voice in the back of my head, like, is this a betrayal? Should I run this by my boyfriend first, before I make those plans, should I just, like, not get coffee? Like, should I question this person's like, intention as to, like, why they want to get coffee with me? Like, are they trying to plant a seed? And it really, like, got in my head a lot as to like, what was the right thing to do. And so I often wonder, like, Should I just tell this person? Like, hey, I'm in a relationship out of respect for my boyfriend. Like, I don't think it's a good idea to get coffee, but I'm glad you're doing well. That felt like calling out my boyfriend so hard it made him sound like a jealous control freak. To say this is not appropriate, because that person's probably like, I didn't, lady, I'm not trying to do anything, right? So I always wonder, like, what is the best way to handle that type of situation? Seth is
Robin (24:14):
very secure, and yes, he actually doesn't have a problem with me hanging out with guy friends, one on one. Like, I have a guy friend that we go climbing. Oh, nice together. We both love climbing. Seth doesn't care for climbing. He's like, Yeah, go climb with your friends. Go
Deborah (24:31):
climb with your friends. That's like, sounds like a dad saying that to you in the playground. Like, go, go play with your friends, honey. Go play with your
Robin (24:38):
friends. Yeah. He just really doesn't care. See, that is kind of what I
Deborah (24:44):
had experienced before. My ex husband, we had like no jealousy bone with each other. I would feel the same about him and some of his lifelong girlfriends. I never felt threatened at all, and he had the same type of. Perspective as Seth of like, yeah, I don't care. Go hang out. So I was not ever used to like those boundaries. And you would think of all relationships in a marriage is where you would really like, feel that the most, yeah. So having that and then being in a relationship with someone who, like, didn't necessarily find that to be respectful, was challenging for me, because I'm like, my own husband didn't even care about this before, and yeah, you know what I mean. So I didn't ever really know there was only one time where I was very, like, clear about those boundaries, and that was because I was getting the sense that this person was trying to flirt with me. It was someone from my past who'd like, reconnected with me on social media and in the reconnection was pumping my tires a little bit too much. Oh, my God, you look so great. I can't believe you look so young. You haven't changed it all. Like, just a little bit too many compliments, like out of the gate, that started to make me feel uncomfortable. Yeah, and just liked too many pictures deep in the grid, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Like, how'd you get four months down so quickly, you know? Yeah. And then proposed us, like hanging out when we were potentially going to be in the same area, but said it like, I would love to take you to this place. And that made me feel, like, too intentional, a little bit like, Hey, I would love to take you out on a date. And that's where I was, like, I'm very much in a relationship, and I just, I don't think it would be appropriate for us to do that, but it was great catching up, and I'm glad you're doing good. Like that felt like a situation where it was really easy for me to, like, strong arm, because I felt like they made their
(26:44):
intentions a little too clear. And I would say, whenever you feel that overt flirtation, if you are in a relationship, like it doesn't really matter the history, like you got to shut that shit down.
Robin (26:56):
You know what's funny is a couple of times, like, I've been uncomfortable in these situations where it's upsetting to me, like I feel like someone's crossing a line, and I show it to Seth. I talked to him about Seth, I was like, isn't this fucking weird? And he's like, just ignore it. Oh my god. Like he did not have a jealous bone in his body. That's
Deborah (27:20):
so rare that's so hard to find,
Robin (27:23):
and it's such a refreshing feeling, because I was in a relationship where it was the exact opposite, yes, like, if I was hanging out with a guy alone, something was up, or I'd get the 10th degree, I'd get asked a million questions. It was so annoying because, yeah, they had lady friends that they spent time. One of them was his ex.
Deborah (27:51):
Oh no, oh no.
Robin (27:54):
It's like this double standard is not cool, yeah?
Deborah (27:59):
Well, that like brings up another good question, can you be friends with your ex? I
Robin (28:06):
I've seen situations, very rare situations where that is true. In my experience, I've not been able to remain friends like, it just doesn't. Mm, hmm. No, they don't fit. They don't fit into this new life I'm creating with my current partner. Like it just it doesn't work in my mind. I know it can work in certain scenarios, but and my dating history does work out for that.
Deborah (28:38):
Yeah, I would agree. I would say most of my exes I'm on good terms with, one I'm no contact with, like, absolutely no contact with, but I still feel fondly about one of them, and he's in Canada. He's my Canadian ex boyfriend, and I will just always have such a warm, nostalgic place in my heart, but I also know like we have not seen each other or heard each other's voice since we broke up in 2005 oh, so I can't say that if he was living in the same town, that we would still be friends or be able to hang out, because, like, he was a huge like he was, like, first love, you know, level of enormity in my life. But interestingly enough, you know, my ex husband and I met in college, and I mean, this is almost like the perfect encapsulation of everything we're talking about, because I met him as a friend. My perspective was he was friends with my friend Eddie, and we all hung out a lot our junior year. I was in the relationship with the Canadian at the time, and he was just like a good friend, always showing up for me. Me, and we had a lot of fun together. We had a great male, female, dynamic group of friends. And the minute I became single, he became a really good friend. He was really there for me. You know, we had a really bad week at school, and he was like, why don't we just go to the movies tonight? Take your mind off of it. I know you're, like, strapped for cash. I don't mind buying your ticket. Like, he like, sleuth me into going on a date, basically. And, you know, I did not want to get into another relationship quickly, because I broke up with the Canadian because I'm, like, I am in college, like, I'm going into my senior year. I need to actually, like, just be at school, not be in a long distance relationship not be hung up, but a boy like, I need to, like, be on my own. And my ex just really, like, swooped in and was like, Ah, you're single. I'm going for it. So we dated for maybe, like two months, and I just was like, I couldn't I was not over my
(30:56):
ex boyfriend, and I couldn't see myself getting, like, more serious with my ex, and he's the one post breakup who came to me and said, Look, we have a great group of friends. I don't want to mess withthat dynamic. Elaine and Jerry Seinfeld, they hooked up in the beginning of the season, and they remained friends. So you and I can just be Jerry and Elaine, two people who used to be together, and now we're not, and nothing has to change. And like, we can be cool, and then ultimately, me and my ex got back together and got married, you know? So it's like, were we really just friends during that time, or was he once again minding his time until the opportunity arose for us to get back together. So it's like, even my one instance of like, a true guy friend who's willing to put his own bullshit aside, still ended up that we, like, got married. You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't know anymore. When I said in the beginning, like my feelings have changed, I would have died on the Hill that men and women friendships are can be pure and exist. And now I don't think I have that opinion anymore. For
Robin (32:13):
the most part, I don't either like the more we're talking about this, the more memories are coming up of other situations where my guy friends profess their feelings for me and they were not reciprocated. Yeah, it's messed up. A lot of friendships for me, most
Deborah (32:31):
definitely, or just jealousy of guys in your life can mess up the current relationship that you are in.
Robin (32:40):
So this makes me want to talk a little bit about pop culture. Did you ever see the manatee episode? How I Met Your Mother? Yes, absolutely. Think they called it the mermaid theory. Yes. And it's basically like you see someone as a manatee, but the longer you hang out with them, they eventually turn into a mermaid, is that? Did I get that right?
Deborah (33:04):
Yes, that's Barney's theory. And he says it comes from, you know, sailors, when they go for long periods of time without female contact, and then they would see the manatees in the water as mermaids, because it had been so
Robin (33:20):
long. What do you think about that? So
Deborah (33:22):
I think this, like, goes a little bit more to what we are saying about you know, this is why the test of time in a relationship is so important, because when you first get to know somebody, there's so many interesting, fascinating things about them. And if you are a guy and a girl that's hanging out repeatedly, I think your brain starts to get confused as to like why you are around this person so much, which is why somebody who is seemingly maybe not your type, if you are single, hanging out and drinking together over and over and over again, your brain might start to see them as the mermaid or the merman, if you will. But hang out with them long enough, like how Marshall does with Robin in this episode, and you start to see the things that make them unattractive, which turns them back into the manatee. And you can only complete that arc through time and exposure, right? This is why I think the summer camp theory also holds true. You go to summer camp, you have limited options. You are seeing the same people over and over and over again, and you are hanging out. You are building bonds, and all of a sudden, this manatee starts to look like a mermaid, and summer camp ends. So there's like a finality to it, and you want to shoot your shot with the mermaid. But if you were to have then gone to school with that same person, they would turn back into a manatee, because you would start to see all their downsides, their corks, them letting their guard down, some of the maybe unattractive parts about their personality. So this is why longevity is key. To actually maintaining male female relationships,
Robin (35:03):
the rose colored glasses come off. And I think this theory was probably unconsciously used a lot at faudo. The faudo days were crazy. Yes, I was there for five years, and between the revolving staff and the insane amount of regulars that we had, the kinds of friendships that we saw. I don't even know what to label some of them. I know because it was just a blob of, I don't know, I don't want to say incest. That's kind of what it felt like, like everybody was just hooking up with everybody. I think
Deborah (35:40):
one time we actually drew out a faux tree of hookups. I did not see that. Yes, we connected people to see who had the most amount of branches and like it was,
Robin (35:57):
it was insane. I'm gonna need you to tell me on the side. I
Deborah (36:01):
know I'll have to think there's one person I'm thinking of that I will tell you on the side who I think. They sprouted a lot. They sprouted a lot. I didn't have any branches because I was in a relationship the whole time that I was there, so thankfully, I was not even on the tree map. But I
Robin (36:15):
had one branch with the guy I dated from Yeah, and there, yeah. And he had other branches he did, yeah, but yeah. This is, this is, like the pressure cooker
Deborah (36:27):
of these, you know, bar situations, of the work situations like this is where you get a lot of that tension. And if you can maintain those relationships after you're out of the pressure cooker. That is your true test of time. If you are still in the pressure cooker, I think it's too soon to tell if that is an actual true friend of yours, because you're in it and you might be vacillating back and forth between manatee, mermaid, manatee, mermaid, and you don't even know, yeah, you got to exit that pressure cooker and have some time and distance to really be able to say, is this person the true co Ed friend that I thought they were right, but I do think there are exceptions if you follow parameters, first one being test of time, you have to have endured a long history with that person, where they have seen your ups and downs, you're ugly, you're pretty, everything in between. They have not disappeared. Once you've gotten in a relationship, you haven't disappeared once they've gotten in a relationship with somebody else. I think people who can endure those seasons of your life can still be considered an actual good friend. So I think the second parameter, no new friends,
Robin (37:50):
no new friends that you make on your own of the
Deborah (37:53):
opposite sex, right? Is that what you're saying? Yes, well, let me, let me say this differently. If you are in a relationship, you're not getting a new guy friend, you're not getting a new girlfriend in that time. I'm sorry, but you just, you just can't You're telling me that if Seth came home from work and he's like, Man, this girl just started working the office, she seems really cool, we're gonna get coffee next week. Like, Oh, we're just friends like, what? Why are you to me like, I I'm not liking that. You don't need a new friend. You don't need a new friend. That sounds possessive, but when you're in a relationship, you should not be seeking out a companionship with somebody from the opposite sex that you had not known for very long. Yeah,
Robin (38:39):
the only way that works is if you meet someone, you think they're cool, then you plan a double date. Double dates, if that person has a part, do you have a partner? I would love for you to meet my wife. I think you guys would really get along, and that's how you make new friends when you're in a couple 100% if you want to bring somebody in as a couple, I think that's totally appropriate to do that. But a singleton, sorry, scram woman, get out of here. I have listened to way too many. Am I the asshole and threw off my chest stories about this exact scenario like Singleton, stay away from my man, yeah.
Deborah (39:22):
And it's honestly, I know that people will use the excuse of like, well, I make friends at work all the time, and, oh, they're just my work friend. Work friend is fine. You start calling someone a work wife. No Excuse me. Now, uh, who you have a wife? Absolutely not. And you need to work from home, and then I'll be your work wife. Yeah, I've never liked that term, yeah, unless, like, one of my friends calls her co worker, my work husband, but he's gay. Okay, that is totally appropriate. If, yeah, if you both are into the same sex, then you can be friends. Yeah, one of my close. His friends, you know he's gay. It's never gonna happen. Okay? So that is an acceptable relationship to have, yeah? But I don't even think age differences matter. If you're both, like, of the same sexual orientation, you could be like, Oh, it's no, he's 20. It doesn't matter. You think that 20 year old isn't going to try to take advantage when this is advantage when the situation presents itself they might. And I think work relationships are hard because it's an easy gateway to like emotional affairs. And for women, emotional affairs are the gateway to physical affairs. And so now I, having been married, been divorced, been through so many different dynamics, I would now be very comfortable saying, like, I would not make a work friend outside of work if I'm in a relationship, meaning, sure, I'll sit with you at the cafeteria table and we can eat lunch and chat and catch up, right? Yeah, but I'm not going to be like, Hey, what are you up to this weekend? Do you want to meet up for a drink? Like that's not happening. I think the biggest test of whether or not these work friends are your friends. Are they gonna hang out with you after you don't work there any longer? And I have
Robin (41:14):
figured that out as well since I left the company. There's like three people that I keep in touch with, yeah, same, the last serving job I worked, like, right around the time that I was graduating college. It was my favorite serving job ever. I loved it. I had so much fun working there. I am not friends with anybody from that life. Yeah, it's just so funny. And then, like, you know, we have our photo. I was there for five years and like, Oh, those are my friends forever. Now. Yeah,
Deborah (41:44):
it really is so funny. Which people stick around. You know, they say people in your life for a reason a season or a lifetime, and so many even work situations, or sometimes even guy friends, are really just there for a season, and they serve their purpose, and then you move on. And this feels like a good time to talk about a friend who was that person who found his way out of the pressure cooker. And this is our good friend, Alex Johnson, and I'm sad to say that we lost Alex last year. We're approaching year anniversary of his passing, but he was all the things that you want in a guy friend, and he hit every single one of the things that we're talking about. Because I think it's fair to say, Robin, he would have hooked up with any single one of us if we had given him the chance. And he did with some and he did, yes, he did. He was he smooched, he smooched some people.
Robin (42:48):
But here's the thing, he was an opportunist, but he never pushed, he never made anyone feel uncomfortable, right? And that's what made him so much fun to be around. It's like women felt safe around him. Yes,
Deborah (43:01):
absolutely, I had never, I mean, mind you, I was never in the position to be single, to feel that energy from him, but I never felt uncomfortable. If it was the end of the night, it's like, yeah, sleep on my couch, like, I'll drive you home in the morning. Never felt that level. He always made women feel safe to be themselves. And I think any woman knew that like, you know what he would make out with me if I wanted Yeah, and he would be like, he wouldn't even have to say it. You do deep down, he was ready and willing to cross that line, but he rarely did, and even the times he did, he still maintained those deep friendships, because he left the pressure cooker, he ended up moving to Chicago, which is insane when I think about the fact that I only worked with him for a year, because it felt so much longer. I felt like we still had so many interactions because we did. I flew to visit him. He's a different person that I literally flew to visit, just him in Chicago while I was at the time, just dating my ex husband. And never a point where I was like, is this weird? Am I crossing the line? Like, no, like he was just always going to be there for you no matter what. And he is, to me, the archetype of what a good guy friend should be. They make you feel safe. They don't put any pressure on you. They withstand the test of time. They show up for you, and they don't want anything in return,
Robin (44:33):
yes, and he did all of those things, and was also willing to sleep with you if you offered. If he
Deborah (44:39):
offered, you know, if you ever need it, he would do that for you, because he was such a good friend, yes.
Robin (44:48):
Oh, so
Deborah (44:50):
yeah, and we miss him so much, I know. Let's dedicate this episode to our friend Alex. I think about him so much. I really do. And he just made everybody. These lives happier. I hope I can be the kind of friend to other people that Alex was, yeah, to me, to you and to every, every friend he came across, anyone
Robin (45:11):
he came across was a friend like he was just that guy. I miss him very much. We miss him very much. Best, guy friend, the best guy friend. Well,
Deborah (45:23):
there it is. Those are your parameters for male and female friendships. I would love to hear other people's experiences with this. Have you still maintained friends with somebody that you used to date or hook up with? Do you have a policy with your significant other that mirrors what we were saying about no new friends. Are you totally cool with it? What are your thoughts on this subject? Send us an email at art of classiness@gmail.com and we would love to hear your feedback. Yeah,
Robin (45:54):
on to our next segment. Classiest thing you've seen this week.
Deborah (45:58):
So as I mentioned briefly earlier, I am going through a breakup, or I have just broken up, or my relationship, my most recent relationship, has come to an end, which is very sad, and I'm going through all the motions right now. It's not fun. I tell you, there is no bigger hype group than a girl chat text message group when you tell them that you are going through a breakup, because I shared the news to our classy ladies group chat yesterday, just because, like, I don't want to have a bunch of individual conversations about it. You know what I mean? Like, I sort of wish that we could go back to the simpler times of Facebook, when you would just, like, update that relationship status and like, boom, the world knew. And you just, like, chaos ensued. Not that I would ever really want to do that at this point in my life. But man, was that just like, way easier to do. So I informed the group chat last night of this life update, and I mean, the hype squad came hyping up ready to go, and it just made me feel really seen and loved and not judged. Because I hate to say that it does feel embarrassing to be going through another breakup, but it does like there's it, there's just a shitty aspect of it to be 41 years old and to have just broken up with a boyfriend like, I know it's I shouldn't be embarrassed about that, but it is what it is. And the minute I mentioned feeling that way, it was like, I mean, the girls were just really being so sweet and sincere and saying really what I needed to hear, to believe in myself again, to know I can tackle this, to know it's going to be okay, and to know that like I'm not judged, like the people who love me the most don't judge me. They don't they're not embarrassed for me. Nobody is like I can't believe you know what I mean. I know that I have a safe girl group that I can rely on during this time, even if you're not physically here. So even though it's like a bittersweet circumstance, it's very classy
(48:11):
that I still am wholly accepted by the people who mean the most to me. Yeah, and we want the best for you. Thank you, and I know you guys do, so I appreciate
Robin (48:23):
that. Well, for me, is it bad to call myself classy?
Deborah (48:30):
Absolutely not. It is classy to call yourself classy. That's the whole point. I
Robin (48:35):
It's the whole point. I've been feeling super classy this week, because I've been on this very strict elimination diet for over two weeks now, and that, in itself, has been a challenge. I'm seeing fantastic results, which is very motivational, but I started I I really crave sweets right now because I haven't been eating sugar or anything, right? So based on the minimal ingredients that I can consume right now, I got into chat GBT. I was like, can we make some, like, baking recipes? Yeah, with this stuff, and it threw some recipes out at me, I decided to try two of them, and I was very pleasantly surprised. Okay, the main ingredient in this thing is sweet potato, and it still kind of tasted like chocolate. Like, Oh, wow. Like, no, it's not going to be a fudge brownie,
Deborah (49:37):
but these are sweet potato brownies, yes, wow, sweet
Robin (49:42):
potato brownies. They're so good, and I'd like pack them full of protein powder so there's super healthy. They just have some, like, coconut oil and a little bit of coconut flour. It's like such a basic recipe and such. A treat. It's a great snack because you're just, you're getting some carbs, your fat, your protein, right there a little it's a little protein snack, honestly, yeah. And it has been a game changer for my meal plans, because it's like something fun to eat. Yeah, yeah. Things get a little monotonous, so it's been really nice to switch it up, and I just, I just feel real classy for how I've been managing this elimination diet, like it's hard, dude, it's hard. Yeah?
Deborah (50:30):
And we should reiterate, if you're new listener, that Robin is doing this for inflammation and some autoimmune issues. Correct?
Robin (50:40):
Yeah, yes. And my inflammation has gone down significantly.
Deborah (50:46):
That's so great. That's so great.
Robin (50:48):
When it comes back to the reintroductory phase, is when I'll figure out what foods are triggering my flare ups, but right now, like no flare ups, no bloating, I just don't leave the house.
Deborah (51:03):
It's simple. It's simple. It's a simple plan of staying inside, eating chicken, vegetables and sweet potatoes and
Robin (51:13):
some fruit and lots of herbal tea, because I also can't have caffeine. I miss coffee. Oh
Deborah (51:22):
my goodness. Well, I think that is classy, Robin, and I'm very proud of you for being so disciplined, especially as it comes to your health, because it's so easy to just go back to your old routine. And even when we know those routines are to our detriment, it's why people try to quit drinking, and then they start drinking again. It's why people stop going to the gym. You see the good results, but you miss that old way of living. So I'm really proud of you for sticking with it, and I'm really happy that you're seeing results. Thanks me too. Well. That takes us to our final segment. Is it classy? Our classy scenario of the week, Robin, do you got one for us? I do
Robin (52:06):
asking guests to remove their shoes. Here's your scenario. You've just moved into a new place with pristine floors. Is it classy to ask guests to remove their shoes? Or should you let it go for the sake of hospitality?
Deborah (52:23):
I think it is classy to ask your guest to remove shoes. It's like crazy to me that we're still wearing shoes in houses. And I don't know if this is because growing up in the Midwest during the, you know, 90s, for the most part, everybody has carpet like you would never wear shoes on carpet in the Midwest, especially since, like, the majority of the year it's either snowing or raining outside, so like, your shoes are going to be gross. So it was always second nature to me to take my shoes off in a house. But in Texas, you'd rarely have carpet in main areas because it's really hot. I'm assuming that's why that there's like that as much carpet in Texas, but every house that I have gone into in Austin, like 90% of it are either tile or wood or faux floors. So I think it's maybe easier to feel like you don't have to take off your shoes, but we now know so much about all the germs that you're bringing into someone's home, and if it's your floor and your house, you can make whatever rules you want. That's true. What do you think
Robin (53:36):
I am always respectful of people who request you take your shoes off? I try to wear cute socks when I know I'm going to be taking my shoes off. Yeah, I don't really have that role in my house, because it's Yeah, our floors are tile. I do think about it sometimes, though, because especially with the dog now, our floors get dirty so fast, oh my gosh, yes. And then I'm like, Well, if our dogs might get a mess on the floor, why? Why do I even need to worry about taking off my own shoes? Yeah? But yeah, like, I have no I take no issue with people requesting that you take off your shoes when you come inside. I've even been to places where they provide slippers for you.
Deborah (54:18):
Oh, wow, yeah. Now that's classy, yeah, super classy. Because, I mean, I can see if you're having, like, let's say, a holiday party and people dress up and part of that outfit is their shoes, right? Like, yeah, it is awkward when you're like, oh, I have this cute little skirt and these nylons and the sweater and, like, these awesome boots, and then you're like, can you remove them? And you're like, Well, what is the purpose of me even dressing up if I take off these boots when I get in your house? So I know why people don't like it when they go to a shoe free house. If you're
Robin (54:53):
hosting a party, do not ask people to take their shoes off. That
Deborah (54:58):
is a good. Point if you're hosting a party, I do think you need to temper expectations. Just have a cleaner scheduled to come the next day and do the floors. But like, yeah, people are getting dressed up. They're not going to want to take off their high heels and walk around in panty hose all night, right? Did you see that episode of Sex in the City where she she went to that baby shower or something, and everyone had take their shoes off, and then someone stole her. Were they Manila blondes? I think yes. They were, yeah. Like, I'm not taking those off. No, no, I Yeah. I think that was a great example. But at the same time, like, once you have kids and your kids are crawling, you're so hyper aware of how dirty your floors are. So I can see both sides. But to answer this specific scenario, I do think it is classy to ask people to take their shoes off. I think there are classy ways to do it like, I think you got to set the stage when they first walk in. You got to have, like, a little shoe basket, maybe a sign, or maybe tell people ahead of time, like, hey, we just got new floors, so I don't really want people wearing shoes. You can dress down.
Robin (56:15):
Yeah? Tell people ahead of time. I think that's huge, because then it's not a conversation you have to continually have at the front door, yeah, which can be awkward sometimes. Well, let's hang this coat. Do you have anything else?
Deborah (56:28):
I don't except to say that classy is a state of mind.
Robin (56:32):
Mind your classiness. Everybody? Goodbye, everyone. Goodbye. You.
welcome to The Art of classiness podcast, a show where we redefine what it means to be a classy lady and sometimes it's messy. I'm Robin and
Deborah (00:18):
I'm Deborah, two friends turned classy ladies who are here to discuss life's ups and downs, navigating the complexities of adulthood and how the gift of friendship is essential to belonging.
Robin (00:28):
This week, we're diving into the age old question, Can men and women just be friends? We're exploring both sides of the debate and digging into the unspoken rules for maintaining these friendships, especially when one or both people are in a committed relationship.
Deborah (00:44):
So follow along, give us your feedback, and don't forget to like and subscribe. What's up? Classy Ladies and gentlemen, hello.
Robin (00:54):
How are you, Robin, I'm good. How are you? I am pretty
Deborah (00:59):
good. You know, we've had here in the Midwest. We had what I like to call full spring. Everyone gets excited because the temperatures go up. I mean, they really did. We went from being like, a real feel of negative one to 50 degrees in the span of like, a few days. So definitely whiplash. But don't worry, Midwest, because we're back down to like 17, and then next week, it's going to be 60, like we are just getting jerked all over the place. And the most unfortunate thing about this Robin is that I finally got my professional fleece overalls in, and right when they arrived, it's like it got so warm, I did manage to wear them on one walk, but, man, I like actually want it to get colder so I can truly enjoy the comfort and warmth that these fleece overalls bring to my life. Dude,
Robin (01:53):
just wait. Just wait. How about you? How have you been Seth and I were both hit with the cedar fever last week, and it's rolled over into this week, which, for those of you that don't know what that is, I hope you never find out it's so bad. It's so bad. And I read somewhere that the reason it's so bad is because when they planted these trees, they only did the male species. My gosh. So when they release all that pollen and stuff, like, there's nowhere for it to go, like there's no female version to catch it. See, this is why we
Deborah (02:36):
need de and I now more than ever, especially with trees and agriculture, you just thought that male cedar trees were going to do the job. I don't think so. Bring in some women trees to absorb all the pollen that's being ejected into the air and has nowhere else to go but in your nostrils and in your throat. And then I've heard that it can, like, grow spores in your lungs. I could be making that up. But, like, people get really sick. Like you truly don't know if you're sick with the worst cold of your life, or if you just have an allergic reaction. It's so awful.
Robin (03:12):
It's really awful. It knocks you out, for sure. Like, you're you're not functioning with that. Yeah, it's not your typical allergies at
Deborah (03:21):
all? No, it's really not, and it really does just like, knock you out. Well, are you guys starting to feel better? Though?
Robin (03:28):
Yes, we went to the gym yesterday for the first time in a week, so that was nice. I felt really weak, but it was good to get back in there. Getting
Deborah (03:38):
back in is always the hardest part when you take, like, a break from the gym. I am currently in that space where I'm just like, working up the courage to, like, go back to taking care of myself, for whatever reason, I feel like, very paralyzed. So I'm proud of you for getting back to the gym doing healthy things for yourself. Yay,
Robin (03:58):
healthy. Yay.
Deborah (04:01):
Well, I am excited to dive right into our topic this week, because it is definitely spicy. I know people have a lot of opinions. I have changed my opinion about this topic a lot over the course of my life, and that topic is, Can men and women really just be friends.
Robin (04:22):
Yeah? I mean, this is, this is an ever changing subject, like, where you're at in your life completely dictates the kind of friendships that you have. Yes, and I never really thought about it in this way until we decided to do this as a topic.
Deborah (04:42):
Yeah, well, I think it's probably good to start with just some background of maybe you and I in our history growing up and through adulthood, of how we have had co Ed group of friends or male best friends. So Robin, what was it like for you? You growing up? Did you have a lot of guy friends?
Robin (05:03):
I grew up with two brothers, and so I was already a tomboy. I liked playing sports. I liked playing outside and getting dirty, riding our bikes around, and all the kids in our neighborhood were boys. So I just spent a majority of my childhood playing with a bunch of boys. I will say there is no sexual tension at that time.
Deborah (05:23):
Oh, you mean when you were 10,
Robin (05:25):
but I think I valued that time for that reason. Yeah, like it's innocent, those friendships, then you get to middle school and things change,
Deborah (05:39):
bodies change, hormones change. Yeah, it's a wild time.
Robin (05:44):
Group dynamics change. Absolutely the way that girls are looked at by boys that right there is a huge shift, especially for the girl, because then they feel that energy, yes, oh, yeah. And these guys have no idea what they're doing or saying, Yeah,
Deborah (06:00):
hormones take the wheel in middle school, and everybody goes feral and crazy in a very quick period of time. So through that, did you still have like, guy friends? Were you still, like, hanging around with the boys?
Robin (06:14):
Yeah, I was in band. So it's easier to have those kinds of guy friends. Like you're just, you're just always around each other. You're doing the same thing. So you hang out in your little groups. Once I got to high school, like those male friendships became very different. Yeah, I felt looked at differently. I struggled to feel like I had a place to fit in, like I was that person that kind of got along with everybody, but not so much that anyone pulled me into their core group, you know? Yeah. So I, you know, I did theater and band. Those were my main extracurriculars. And I just remember the amount of times I had to play dumb when I could tell that a guy was like pulling his moves. They're not classy in high school, I'll tell you that just makes you feel uncomfortable and icky and you're hoping someone else is in the room Absolutely.
Deborah (07:09):
Yeah. I need a witness. Someone notice this, please and pull me from this flirtatious wreckage, please. Yeah, I had kind of somewhat similar experiences, but I would say that I truly did feel like I had guy friends growing up like you mentioned. The neighborhood knows no gender, like when you grow up in a neighborhood that has boys and girls, like I see that in my kids right now. It's like everybody just plays with each other. It's like they're completely unaware that this iceberg is about to hit. Those dynamics, like they just don't know, you know, and there is no like crushes or anything like that. They literally just play with whoever is around and has any type of similar interest. So I had a neighborhood like that, and then going into middle school, I would say, like seventh grade is when the CO Ed hangouts really started happening more between my girlfriends and the different boys. Now I will preface this by saying I literally grew up on an island. The community was very small, and I graduated with about 100 kids, and those kids I literally went to kindergarten with, so everybody knew each other, one middle school, one high school, so you kind of established those relationships pretty early on. And I was a girl that was in a co Ed group of skater boys, nice. I was a baggy jean, flannel shirt, wearing black tattoo choker, like that was the look and style. And so we hung out with, like, kind of the bad boys, the skater boys. They had like chains on their jeans. And we would just do, like, basement Hangouts on the weekend. Birthday parties were always co Ed, like we were the kids that would go to the football game, but like, hang out under the bleachers and like, we were just really entrenched with one another. So cool. No, we were not cool. We were like the rejects that were kicked to the under the bleachers. But I would not say we were like the cool kids. And then high school was very similar. Kind of grew out of the skater boy group and got
(09:25):
into another co Ed group because we all worked at the same ice cream shop called the idol in cafe. And this idol in crew was like, my like, when I think of high school, I think of this group offriends. Two of my best friends to this day were in that group, Leah and Lauren. And you know, we just would always hang with the guys, and we were just super close. We could interchange out with one another, like I could go hang with my friend Justin, and then the next week, like I could hang out with my friend John. And then Steve and like, it was very interchangeable in that way, and I felt totally comfortable around these boys. So for me as an adult, and as you start having more like relationships with men, it was never weird to me if a guy had like girlfriends from high school that they still talked with, or maybe they still were close within college, because I had that similar type of history. But when you're with someone who has never been like friends with women, they sometimes can find those dynamics threatening, which is kind of like what we wanted to unpack today, like, at what point do those relationships become threatening? Okay, so both of us have a history of male female dynamics, whether it's our upbringing and obviously, as you and I worked together in the service industry, you know, we were always around guys as well, whether it was our friends boyfriends or just other random servers and bartenders, like we had a really healthy co Ed group of guys and girls when we were in our 20s. And for this reason, like I said, I think in relationships I've been in where they have maybe expressed, I don't want to say jealousy, but I could tell they were maybe threatened by the fact that I still have guy friends in my life. I just would say, like, this is really all I've ever known, though. Like, I don't know what it's like to not have a guy friend in my life, but now that I'm older and can, like, examine with a little bit more wisdom, looking
(11:39):
back, we were all hooking up with each other. 100%
Robin (11:44):
100%
Deborah (11:45):
those skater boys that we hung out with, I was dating one of them, and I had a crush on another one of them. My my friend Andrew, was dating one of the guys. Like we were hanging out with them because they were our boyfriends, and we were making out with them, and then in high school, like, you know, I ended up dating one of them. You know, we all had made out with each other at one point or another. And even if we weren't like friends, to do that, if at any moment, any one of us girls have been like, Hey, you want to hook up, they would drop everything. They would throw that friendship into the river immediately for a chance to be with us. So that really uncovers the question like, are you really just friends until somebody is willing to cross that line? And
Robin (12:32):
that is the question. It's not like you want to ask anybody that straight up, yeah, especially if it is a friend. For
Deborah (12:39):
sure, you can't go into the middle of a friendship and say, Hey, I just want to be clear, like, we're never going to hook up, right? Yeah? Like, if only if it were that simple to just be like, let's just get this out of the way. Now, you and I are never going to hook up, because even asking that you're like, planting the seed, that it could be a possibility. So it's like, it's always the elephant in the room when you think about male female friendship dynamics,
Robin (13:04):
and it's so difficult, at least from my experience, like we know when a guy has a crush on us, and it's a difficult line to walk, because you really care about that friendship and you want to stay friends with them, But at any point, they could confess their love for you, and that has happened to me, and we never spoke again like this person that I considered my closest friend at the time, and I don't blame him, like I'm sure it was like soul crushing to not have those feelings reciprocated. It just really sucked for me, because I saw him as a genuine friend, and then I lost that friend just because my feelings weren't mutual. And it's like so many male female relationships revolve around one of you having some kind of romantic feelings for the other, whether it's a parent or not, but men and women think very differently, and I find that generally men are talking to you because they find you attractive. They want to sleep with you if y'all become friends in the process, cool, but if an opportunity arises, they will take it. They will absolutely take it. I've been in situations where they took it, yeah? I gave them the opportunity. I opened that door they ran straight through, like the Kool Aid man through a wall, yes, oh, yeah, running
Deborah (14:32):
right to it. Oh, I know. And I think that this is a universal disappointment that a lot of women experience when you realize, like, oh, they were just being nice because they wanted something out of me, and that, I think, is like a betrayal that women experience, that I don't know if men interpret the same way, and for maybe men. The betrayal is in the fact that they're like, I was so nice to you, I was there for you. You know what? I mean, you took advantage of how nice I was to you, and now you don't want to like do things in return, which I think is a really entitled way to see it, yeah, but that is probably the closest thing that they can experience to like that level of betrayal. But nothing is worse than looking back on your entire friendship and realizing like this was all self serving for you? Yeah? None of this was genuine towards a friendship with me, that was a byproduct, but your intention was to do something totally different, and that is, like, such a deep betrayal, yeah?
Robin (15:37):
And then like we're the ones made to feel like we're the wrong. It's like, No, I'm I'm able to set clear boundaries. Mm, hmm, you're not. It seems
Deborah (15:48):
right. Well, let me ask you this, do you think that there's always an underlying attraction? No, when we have male female friendships, I
Robin (15:55):
wouldn't say always. I would say it's more rare. Yeah, yeah. Like, I've listened to men talk about women in excess. Like, I've been with a group of men who have no filter around me. I hear the things they say, yeah. They're always thinking about that. They're always thinking about it. So have you ever hooked up with a guy friend? Yeah? Did I regret it? Yes. Oh,
Deborah (16:24):
okay, did it because it changed your dynamic, it
Robin (16:28):
changed our dynamic, and the sex was just really bad. Also, oh, Mm, hmm. Think we were both drunk. Kind of pretended. It just never happened after that. Sometimes,
Deborah (16:41):
sometimes that's what you got to do. That's what you got to do. It's
Robin (16:44):
like, oh, this was a bad idea. I thought that this would be fun, and it wasn't. I didn't even say the night,
Deborah (16:52):
Adios. Adios. Well, going back to the friendship aspect of it, yeah, I can say that. I don't think I ever crossed that line with somebody who was like a tried and true friend? Now, I will say I did have a small like period of time where a friend of mine and I had been just this was during the days of instant messenger, and I found myself like messaging him, like when I was at work, kind of randomly. And somehow we decided that, like, you know what, we've known each other long enough, both of us are single. If the opportunity ever presented itself, then let's test those waters. And like, we made this decision in, like, a sober mind, not like being drunk, and we're obviously not even in the same area, because we were like instant messaging during a work day, right the early days of the Internet, when, like, you weren't being constantly monitored by everything you were doing. But the opportunity, just like, never presented itself, and we both just kind of like, went on our merry way, but like, that was the closest that I'd ever come to being like, should we cross this line? Would it be weird? I think we could get over the weirdness. This might be, like, a good little arrangement, and then it just never came into fruition. And that was, like, the closest I ever came was like, that type of, like, tried and true, like, let's state the parameters, like, this is what we're going to stick to, but it never came to be. So I don't know that that would have worked in our favor or maybe been super detrimental. Are you friendly? I guess. I mean, I would say that we are friendly. You know, we don't live in the same area, so it's not like somebody that I would we're not on a texting basis. I'll tell you that much. I don't have his number anymore, so I would say, no, okay, but I think if we were living in the same area, he's definitely someone that I would like, probably enjoy hanging out with, you know, yeah, with his wife, because he's married now, like everybody else in
(19:01):
this world, she probably would not like me being friends with him. I'll tell you that much. I wouldn't want my significant other to be active friends with someone that they had once been like, youknow what we should do? Yeah, like, I probably wouldn't want that.
Robin (19:15):
And that's like the test of time scenario where, like, you guys stopped talking for a long time, and now he has a whole new life. So it is weird for you to just insert yourself
Deborah (19:27):
100% Yeah, 100% that's why, yeah, test of time is so important. Now, I do think that obviously, even with female friendships, you know, you kind of come and go out of each other's lives as seasons change. But yeah, it's got to be someone that remembers your birthday, texts you on your birthday, sends you the Holiday Card, gives you the life update, like one of my best guy friends, who's a true guy friend. He's the always the first one to text me on my birthday, and I know now that he has calendar invites for all of his friends birthdays. Is on his phone, which is like, so smart, and it's the first thing he does in the morning is like, boop, here you go. Or sometimes he's like, Hey, I'm traveling tomorrow, so I wanted to text you today, happy birthday. Like that is a true friend, and I do the same for him. You know, I mean someone that I'm always I'm just like, proud to be his friend Absolutely, like, through all of our seasons of life. He's someone that I know we are always going to be there for each other, and that can be threatening to a relationship, and it was threatening to my last relationship, because I had, at one point, flown out to visit this friend, made plans to fly out visit and stay with this friend while I was in this relationship, because I did not see an issue with it at all. I was so like, What do you mean? I should have told you about this. Like, this is one of my best friends, and I wasn't with somebody who was like, controlling or hyper jealous, but he made it very clear that he was a little uncomfortable with the idea that I would be staying in another man's apartment that I had known since college. At one point, I even was like, should I stay in a hotel? Like, am I the asshole? Am I actually the one who's in the wrong by doing this, would I feel the same way if he was flying to visit a girl and staying with her, I don't know. And that is really when I first started wondering, like, can you still maintain co Ed relationships
(21:39):
when you are in a long term relationship, what do you think? I
Robin (21:43):
think you can absolutely it's just setting clear boundaries. And in that scenario, you know, when we're single, it's easier to hang out with groups where, you know, some of the guys have a crush on you at that point. I don't think it's appropriate for you to be around those people, right? Because it's just out of respect for your partner. Yeah,
Deborah (22:13):
and I see I really struggled how honest I should be with guy friends about those boundaries. So, I mean, I'll just, like, say, right here, I am currently going through a breakup, which sucks. I shouldn't say going through because, like, it's, it's over, like that. There's no, we're not discussing it anymore, like we're done, and I don't want to get I'm not obviously going to air out any laundry, but in this last relationship, is really where I started thinking more about whether or not I should maintain, like, male friendships, because it did make him a little heightened. I would say, not like, ever angry, but like, I could tell it wasn't something that he loved, and you never want to do something to your partner when you know that they don't like it at all. And I would have guys during my relationship be like, hey, like, let's catch up. Like, let's meet for coffee sometime. And I would just have this voice in the back of my head, like, is this a betrayal? Should I run this by my boyfriend first, before I make those plans, should I just, like, not get coffee? Like, should I question this person's like, intention as to, like, why they want to get coffee with me? Like, are they trying to plant a seed? And it really, like, got in my head a lot as to like, what was the right thing to do. And so I often wonder, like, Should I just tell this person? Like, hey, I'm in a relationship out of respect for my boyfriend. Like, I don't think it's a good idea to get coffee, but I'm glad you're doing well. That felt like calling out my boyfriend so hard it made him sound like a jealous control freak. To say this is not appropriate, because that person's probably like, I didn't, lady, I'm not trying to do anything, right? So I always wonder, like, what is the best way to handle that type of situation? Seth is
Robin (24:14):
very secure, and yes, he actually doesn't have a problem with me hanging out with guy friends, one on one. Like, I have a guy friend that we go climbing. Oh, nice together. We both love climbing. Seth doesn't care for climbing. He's like, Yeah, go climb with your friends. Go
Deborah (24:31):
climb with your friends. That's like, sounds like a dad saying that to you in the playground. Like, go, go play with your friends, honey. Go play with your
Robin (24:38):
friends. Yeah. He just really doesn't care. See, that is kind of what I
Deborah (24:44):
had experienced before. My ex husband, we had like no jealousy bone with each other. I would feel the same about him and some of his lifelong girlfriends. I never felt threatened at all, and he had the same type of. Perspective as Seth of like, yeah, I don't care. Go hang out. So I was not ever used to like those boundaries. And you would think of all relationships in a marriage is where you would really like, feel that the most, yeah. So having that and then being in a relationship with someone who, like, didn't necessarily find that to be respectful, was challenging for me, because I'm like, my own husband didn't even care about this before, and yeah, you know what I mean. So I didn't ever really know there was only one time where I was very, like, clear about those boundaries, and that was because I was getting the sense that this person was trying to flirt with me. It was someone from my past who'd like, reconnected with me on social media and in the reconnection was pumping my tires a little bit too much. Oh, my God, you look so great. I can't believe you look so young. You haven't changed it all. Like, just a little bit too many compliments, like out of the gate, that started to make me feel uncomfortable. Yeah, and just liked too many pictures deep in the grid, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Like, how'd you get four months down so quickly, you know? Yeah. And then proposed us, like hanging out when we were potentially going to be in the same area, but said it like, I would love to take you to this place. And that made me feel, like, too intentional, a little bit like, Hey, I would love to take you out on a date. And that's where I was, like, I'm very much in a relationship, and I just, I don't think it would be appropriate for us to do that, but it was great catching up, and I'm glad you're doing good. Like that felt like a situation where it was really easy for me to, like, strong arm, because I felt like they made their
(26:44):
intentions a little too clear. And I would say, whenever you feel that overt flirtation, if you are in a relationship, like it doesn't really matter the history, like you got to shut that shit down.
Robin (26:56):
You know what's funny is a couple of times, like, I've been uncomfortable in these situations where it's upsetting to me, like I feel like someone's crossing a line, and I show it to Seth. I talked to him about Seth, I was like, isn't this fucking weird? And he's like, just ignore it. Oh my god. Like he did not have a jealous bone in his body. That's
Deborah (27:20):
so rare that's so hard to find,
Robin (27:23):
and it's such a refreshing feeling, because I was in a relationship where it was the exact opposite, yes, like, if I was hanging out with a guy alone, something was up, or I'd get the 10th degree, I'd get asked a million questions. It was so annoying because, yeah, they had lady friends that they spent time. One of them was his ex.
Deborah (27:51):
Oh no, oh no.
Robin (27:54):
It's like this double standard is not cool, yeah?
Deborah (27:59):
Well, that like brings up another good question, can you be friends with your ex? I
Robin (28:06):
I've seen situations, very rare situations where that is true. In my experience, I've not been able to remain friends like, it just doesn't. Mm, hmm. No, they don't fit. They don't fit into this new life I'm creating with my current partner. Like it just it doesn't work in my mind. I know it can work in certain scenarios, but and my dating history does work out for that.
Deborah (28:38):
Yeah, I would agree. I would say most of my exes I'm on good terms with, one I'm no contact with, like, absolutely no contact with, but I still feel fondly about one of them, and he's in Canada. He's my Canadian ex boyfriend, and I will just always have such a warm, nostalgic place in my heart, but I also know like we have not seen each other or heard each other's voice since we broke up in 2005 oh, so I can't say that if he was living in the same town, that we would still be friends or be able to hang out, because, like, he was a huge like he was, like, first love, you know, level of enormity in my life. But interestingly enough, you know, my ex husband and I met in college, and I mean, this is almost like the perfect encapsulation of everything we're talking about, because I met him as a friend. My perspective was he was friends with my friend Eddie, and we all hung out a lot our junior year. I was in the relationship with the Canadian at the time, and he was just like a good friend, always showing up for me. Me, and we had a lot of fun together. We had a great male, female, dynamic group of friends. And the minute I became single, he became a really good friend. He was really there for me. You know, we had a really bad week at school, and he was like, why don't we just go to the movies tonight? Take your mind off of it. I know you're, like, strapped for cash. I don't mind buying your ticket. Like, he like, sleuth me into going on a date, basically. And, you know, I did not want to get into another relationship quickly, because I broke up with the Canadian because I'm, like, I am in college, like, I'm going into my senior year. I need to actually, like, just be at school, not be in a long distance relationship not be hung up, but a boy like, I need to, like, be on my own. And my ex just really, like, swooped in and was like, Ah, you're single. I'm going for it. So we dated for maybe, like two months, and I just was like, I couldn't I was not over my
(30:56):
ex boyfriend, and I couldn't see myself getting, like, more serious with my ex, and he's the one post breakup who came to me and said, Look, we have a great group of friends. I don't want to mess withthat dynamic. Elaine and Jerry Seinfeld, they hooked up in the beginning of the season, and they remained friends. So you and I can just be Jerry and Elaine, two people who used to be together, and now we're not, and nothing has to change. And like, we can be cool, and then ultimately, me and my ex got back together and got married, you know? So it's like, were we really just friends during that time, or was he once again minding his time until the opportunity arose for us to get back together. So it's like, even my one instance of like, a true guy friend who's willing to put his own bullshit aside, still ended up that we, like, got married. You know what I mean? So it's like, I don't know anymore. When I said in the beginning, like my feelings have changed, I would have died on the Hill that men and women friendships are can be pure and exist. And now I don't think I have that opinion anymore. For
Robin (32:13):
the most part, I don't either like the more we're talking about this, the more memories are coming up of other situations where my guy friends profess their feelings for me and they were not reciprocated. Yeah, it's messed up. A lot of friendships for me, most
Deborah (32:31):
definitely, or just jealousy of guys in your life can mess up the current relationship that you are in.
Robin (32:40):
So this makes me want to talk a little bit about pop culture. Did you ever see the manatee episode? How I Met Your Mother? Yes, absolutely. Think they called it the mermaid theory. Yes. And it's basically like you see someone as a manatee, but the longer you hang out with them, they eventually turn into a mermaid, is that? Did I get that right?
Deborah (33:04):
Yes, that's Barney's theory. And he says it comes from, you know, sailors, when they go for long periods of time without female contact, and then they would see the manatees in the water as mermaids, because it had been so
Robin (33:20):
long. What do you think about that? So
Deborah (33:22):
I think this, like, goes a little bit more to what we are saying about you know, this is why the test of time in a relationship is so important, because when you first get to know somebody, there's so many interesting, fascinating things about them. And if you are a guy and a girl that's hanging out repeatedly, I think your brain starts to get confused as to like why you are around this person so much, which is why somebody who is seemingly maybe not your type, if you are single, hanging out and drinking together over and over and over again, your brain might start to see them as the mermaid or the merman, if you will. But hang out with them long enough, like how Marshall does with Robin in this episode, and you start to see the things that make them unattractive, which turns them back into the manatee. And you can only complete that arc through time and exposure, right? This is why I think the summer camp theory also holds true. You go to summer camp, you have limited options. You are seeing the same people over and over and over again, and you are hanging out. You are building bonds, and all of a sudden, this manatee starts to look like a mermaid, and summer camp ends. So there's like a finality to it, and you want to shoot your shot with the mermaid. But if you were to have then gone to school with that same person, they would turn back into a manatee, because you would start to see all their downsides, their corks, them letting their guard down, some of the maybe unattractive parts about their personality. So this is why longevity is key. To actually maintaining male female relationships,
Robin (35:03):
the rose colored glasses come off. And I think this theory was probably unconsciously used a lot at faudo. The faudo days were crazy. Yes, I was there for five years, and between the revolving staff and the insane amount of regulars that we had, the kinds of friendships that we saw. I don't even know what to label some of them. I know because it was just a blob of, I don't know, I don't want to say incest. That's kind of what it felt like, like everybody was just hooking up with everybody. I think
Deborah (35:40):
one time we actually drew out a faux tree of hookups. I did not see that. Yes, we connected people to see who had the most amount of branches and like it was,
Robin (35:57):
it was insane. I'm gonna need you to tell me on the side. I
Deborah (36:01):
know I'll have to think there's one person I'm thinking of that I will tell you on the side who I think. They sprouted a lot. They sprouted a lot. I didn't have any branches because I was in a relationship the whole time that I was there, so thankfully, I was not even on the tree map. But I
Robin (36:15):
had one branch with the guy I dated from Yeah, and there, yeah. And he had other branches he did, yeah, but yeah. This is, this is, like the pressure cooker
Deborah (36:27):
of these, you know, bar situations, of the work situations like this is where you get a lot of that tension. And if you can maintain those relationships after you're out of the pressure cooker. That is your true test of time. If you are still in the pressure cooker, I think it's too soon to tell if that is an actual true friend of yours, because you're in it and you might be vacillating back and forth between manatee, mermaid, manatee, mermaid, and you don't even know, yeah, you got to exit that pressure cooker and have some time and distance to really be able to say, is this person the true co Ed friend that I thought they were right, but I do think there are exceptions if you follow parameters, first one being test of time, you have to have endured a long history with that person, where they have seen your ups and downs, you're ugly, you're pretty, everything in between. They have not disappeared. Once you've gotten in a relationship, you haven't disappeared once they've gotten in a relationship with somebody else. I think people who can endure those seasons of your life can still be considered an actual good friend. So I think the second parameter, no new friends,
Robin (37:50):
no new friends that you make on your own of the
Deborah (37:53):
opposite sex, right? Is that what you're saying? Yes, well, let me, let me say this differently. If you are in a relationship, you're not getting a new guy friend, you're not getting a new girlfriend in that time. I'm sorry, but you just, you just can't You're telling me that if Seth came home from work and he's like, Man, this girl just started working the office, she seems really cool, we're gonna get coffee next week. Like, Oh, we're just friends like, what? Why are you to me like, I I'm not liking that. You don't need a new friend. You don't need a new friend. That sounds possessive, but when you're in a relationship, you should not be seeking out a companionship with somebody from the opposite sex that you had not known for very long. Yeah,
Robin (38:39):
the only way that works is if you meet someone, you think they're cool, then you plan a double date. Double dates, if that person has a part, do you have a partner? I would love for you to meet my wife. I think you guys would really get along, and that's how you make new friends when you're in a couple 100% if you want to bring somebody in as a couple, I think that's totally appropriate to do that. But a singleton, sorry, scram woman, get out of here. I have listened to way too many. Am I the asshole and threw off my chest stories about this exact scenario like Singleton, stay away from my man, yeah.
Deborah (39:22):
And it's honestly, I know that people will use the excuse of like, well, I make friends at work all the time, and, oh, they're just my work friend. Work friend is fine. You start calling someone a work wife. No Excuse me. Now, uh, who you have a wife? Absolutely not. And you need to work from home, and then I'll be your work wife. Yeah, I've never liked that term, yeah, unless, like, one of my friends calls her co worker, my work husband, but he's gay. Okay, that is totally appropriate. If, yeah, if you both are into the same sex, then you can be friends. Yeah, one of my close. His friends, you know he's gay. It's never gonna happen. Okay? So that is an acceptable relationship to have, yeah? But I don't even think age differences matter. If you're both, like, of the same sexual orientation, you could be like, Oh, it's no, he's 20. It doesn't matter. You think that 20 year old isn't going to try to take advantage when this is advantage when the situation presents itself they might. And I think work relationships are hard because it's an easy gateway to like emotional affairs. And for women, emotional affairs are the gateway to physical affairs. And so now I, having been married, been divorced, been through so many different dynamics, I would now be very comfortable saying, like, I would not make a work friend outside of work if I'm in a relationship, meaning, sure, I'll sit with you at the cafeteria table and we can eat lunch and chat and catch up, right? Yeah, but I'm not going to be like, Hey, what are you up to this weekend? Do you want to meet up for a drink? Like that's not happening. I think the biggest test of whether or not these work friends are your friends. Are they gonna hang out with you after you don't work there any longer? And I have
Robin (41:14):
figured that out as well since I left the company. There's like three people that I keep in touch with, yeah, same, the last serving job I worked, like, right around the time that I was graduating college. It was my favorite serving job ever. I loved it. I had so much fun working there. I am not friends with anybody from that life. Yeah, it's just so funny. And then, like, you know, we have our photo. I was there for five years and like, Oh, those are my friends forever. Now. Yeah,
Deborah (41:44):
it really is so funny. Which people stick around. You know, they say people in your life for a reason a season or a lifetime, and so many even work situations, or sometimes even guy friends, are really just there for a season, and they serve their purpose, and then you move on. And this feels like a good time to talk about a friend who was that person who found his way out of the pressure cooker. And this is our good friend, Alex Johnson, and I'm sad to say that we lost Alex last year. We're approaching year anniversary of his passing, but he was all the things that you want in a guy friend, and he hit every single one of the things that we're talking about. Because I think it's fair to say, Robin, he would have hooked up with any single one of us if we had given him the chance. And he did with some and he did, yes, he did. He was he smooched, he smooched some people.
Robin (42:48):
But here's the thing, he was an opportunist, but he never pushed, he never made anyone feel uncomfortable, right? And that's what made him so much fun to be around. It's like women felt safe around him. Yes,
Deborah (43:01):
absolutely, I had never, I mean, mind you, I was never in the position to be single, to feel that energy from him, but I never felt uncomfortable. If it was the end of the night, it's like, yeah, sleep on my couch, like, I'll drive you home in the morning. Never felt that level. He always made women feel safe to be themselves. And I think any woman knew that like, you know what he would make out with me if I wanted Yeah, and he would be like, he wouldn't even have to say it. You do deep down, he was ready and willing to cross that line, but he rarely did, and even the times he did, he still maintained those deep friendships, because he left the pressure cooker, he ended up moving to Chicago, which is insane when I think about the fact that I only worked with him for a year, because it felt so much longer. I felt like we still had so many interactions because we did. I flew to visit him. He's a different person that I literally flew to visit, just him in Chicago while I was at the time, just dating my ex husband. And never a point where I was like, is this weird? Am I crossing the line? Like, no, like he was just always going to be there for you no matter what. And he is, to me, the archetype of what a good guy friend should be. They make you feel safe. They don't put any pressure on you. They withstand the test of time. They show up for you, and they don't want anything in return,
Robin (44:33):
yes, and he did all of those things, and was also willing to sleep with you if you offered. If he
Deborah (44:39):
offered, you know, if you ever need it, he would do that for you, because he was such a good friend, yes.
Robin (44:48):
Oh, so
Deborah (44:50):
yeah, and we miss him so much, I know. Let's dedicate this episode to our friend Alex. I think about him so much. I really do. And he just made everybody. These lives happier. I hope I can be the kind of friend to other people that Alex was, yeah, to me, to you and to every, every friend he came across, anyone
Robin (45:11):
he came across was a friend like he was just that guy. I miss him very much. We miss him very much. Best, guy friend, the best guy friend. Well,
Deborah (45:23):
there it is. Those are your parameters for male and female friendships. I would love to hear other people's experiences with this. Have you still maintained friends with somebody that you used to date or hook up with? Do you have a policy with your significant other that mirrors what we were saying about no new friends. Are you totally cool with it? What are your thoughts on this subject? Send us an email at art of classiness@gmail.com and we would love to hear your feedback. Yeah,
Robin (45:54):
on to our next segment. Classiest thing you've seen this week.
Deborah (45:58):
So as I mentioned briefly earlier, I am going through a breakup, or I have just broken up, or my relationship, my most recent relationship, has come to an end, which is very sad, and I'm going through all the motions right now. It's not fun. I tell you, there is no bigger hype group than a girl chat text message group when you tell them that you are going through a breakup, because I shared the news to our classy ladies group chat yesterday, just because, like, I don't want to have a bunch of individual conversations about it. You know what I mean? Like, I sort of wish that we could go back to the simpler times of Facebook, when you would just, like, update that relationship status and like, boom, the world knew. And you just, like, chaos ensued. Not that I would ever really want to do that at this point in my life. But man, was that just like, way easier to do. So I informed the group chat last night of this life update, and I mean, the hype squad came hyping up ready to go, and it just made me feel really seen and loved and not judged. Because I hate to say that it does feel embarrassing to be going through another breakup, but it does like there's it, there's just a shitty aspect of it to be 41 years old and to have just broken up with a boyfriend like, I know it's I shouldn't be embarrassed about that, but it is what it is. And the minute I mentioned feeling that way, it was like, I mean, the girls were just really being so sweet and sincere and saying really what I needed to hear, to believe in myself again, to know I can tackle this, to know it's going to be okay, and to know that like I'm not judged, like the people who love me the most don't judge me. They don't they're not embarrassed for me. Nobody is like I can't believe you know what I mean. I know that I have a safe girl group that I can rely on during this time, even if you're not physically here. So even though it's like a bittersweet circumstance, it's very classy
(48:11):
that I still am wholly accepted by the people who mean the most to me. Yeah, and we want the best for you. Thank you, and I know you guys do, so I appreciate
Robin (48:23):
that. Well, for me, is it bad to call myself classy?
Deborah (48:30):
Absolutely not. It is classy to call yourself classy. That's the whole point. I
Robin (48:35):
It's the whole point. I've been feeling super classy this week, because I've been on this very strict elimination diet for over two weeks now, and that, in itself, has been a challenge. I'm seeing fantastic results, which is very motivational, but I started I I really crave sweets right now because I haven't been eating sugar or anything, right? So based on the minimal ingredients that I can consume right now, I got into chat GBT. I was like, can we make some, like, baking recipes? Yeah, with this stuff, and it threw some recipes out at me, I decided to try two of them, and I was very pleasantly surprised. Okay, the main ingredient in this thing is sweet potato, and it still kind of tasted like chocolate. Like, Oh, wow. Like, no, it's not going to be a fudge brownie,
Deborah (49:37):
but these are sweet potato brownies, yes, wow, sweet
Robin (49:42):
potato brownies. They're so good, and I'd like pack them full of protein powder so there's super healthy. They just have some, like, coconut oil and a little bit of coconut flour. It's like such a basic recipe and such. A treat. It's a great snack because you're just, you're getting some carbs, your fat, your protein, right there a little it's a little protein snack, honestly, yeah. And it has been a game changer for my meal plans, because it's like something fun to eat. Yeah, yeah. Things get a little monotonous, so it's been really nice to switch it up, and I just, I just feel real classy for how I've been managing this elimination diet, like it's hard, dude, it's hard. Yeah?
Deborah (50:30):
And we should reiterate, if you're new listener, that Robin is doing this for inflammation and some autoimmune issues. Correct?
Robin (50:40):
Yeah, yes. And my inflammation has gone down significantly.
Deborah (50:46):
That's so great. That's so great.
Robin (50:48):
When it comes back to the reintroductory phase, is when I'll figure out what foods are triggering my flare ups, but right now, like no flare ups, no bloating, I just don't leave the house.
Deborah (51:03):
It's simple. It's simple. It's a simple plan of staying inside, eating chicken, vegetables and sweet potatoes and
Robin (51:13):
some fruit and lots of herbal tea, because I also can't have caffeine. I miss coffee. Oh
Deborah (51:22):
my goodness. Well, I think that is classy, Robin, and I'm very proud of you for being so disciplined, especially as it comes to your health, because it's so easy to just go back to your old routine. And even when we know those routines are to our detriment, it's why people try to quit drinking, and then they start drinking again. It's why people stop going to the gym. You see the good results, but you miss that old way of living. So I'm really proud of you for sticking with it, and I'm really happy that you're seeing results. Thanks me too. Well. That takes us to our final segment. Is it classy? Our classy scenario of the week, Robin, do you got one for us? I do
Robin (52:06):
asking guests to remove their shoes. Here's your scenario. You've just moved into a new place with pristine floors. Is it classy to ask guests to remove their shoes? Or should you let it go for the sake of hospitality?
Deborah (52:23):
I think it is classy to ask your guest to remove shoes. It's like crazy to me that we're still wearing shoes in houses. And I don't know if this is because growing up in the Midwest during the, you know, 90s, for the most part, everybody has carpet like you would never wear shoes on carpet in the Midwest, especially since, like, the majority of the year it's either snowing or raining outside, so like, your shoes are going to be gross. So it was always second nature to me to take my shoes off in a house. But in Texas, you'd rarely have carpet in main areas because it's really hot. I'm assuming that's why that there's like that as much carpet in Texas, but every house that I have gone into in Austin, like 90% of it are either tile or wood or faux floors. So I think it's maybe easier to feel like you don't have to take off your shoes, but we now know so much about all the germs that you're bringing into someone's home, and if it's your floor and your house, you can make whatever rules you want. That's true. What do you think
Robin (53:36):
I am always respectful of people who request you take your shoes off? I try to wear cute socks when I know I'm going to be taking my shoes off. Yeah, I don't really have that role in my house, because it's Yeah, our floors are tile. I do think about it sometimes, though, because especially with the dog now, our floors get dirty so fast, oh my gosh, yes. And then I'm like, Well, if our dogs might get a mess on the floor, why? Why do I even need to worry about taking off my own shoes? Yeah? But yeah, like, I have no I take no issue with people requesting that you take off your shoes when you come inside. I've even been to places where they provide slippers for you.
Deborah (54:18):
Oh, wow, yeah. Now that's classy, yeah, super classy. Because, I mean, I can see if you're having, like, let's say, a holiday party and people dress up and part of that outfit is their shoes, right? Like, yeah, it is awkward when you're like, oh, I have this cute little skirt and these nylons and the sweater and, like, these awesome boots, and then you're like, can you remove them? And you're like, Well, what is the purpose of me even dressing up if I take off these boots when I get in your house? So I know why people don't like it when they go to a shoe free house. If you're
Robin (54:53):
hosting a party, do not ask people to take their shoes off. That
Deborah (54:58):
is a good. Point if you're hosting a party, I do think you need to temper expectations. Just have a cleaner scheduled to come the next day and do the floors. But like, yeah, people are getting dressed up. They're not going to want to take off their high heels and walk around in panty hose all night, right? Did you see that episode of Sex in the City where she she went to that baby shower or something, and everyone had take their shoes off, and then someone stole her. Were they Manila blondes? I think yes. They were, yeah. Like, I'm not taking those off. No, no, I Yeah. I think that was a great example. But at the same time, like, once you have kids and your kids are crawling, you're so hyper aware of how dirty your floors are. So I can see both sides. But to answer this specific scenario, I do think it is classy to ask people to take their shoes off. I think there are classy ways to do it like, I think you got to set the stage when they first walk in. You got to have, like, a little shoe basket, maybe a sign, or maybe tell people ahead of time, like, hey, we just got new floors, so I don't really want people wearing shoes. You can dress down.
Robin (56:15):
Yeah? Tell people ahead of time. I think that's huge, because then it's not a conversation you have to continually have at the front door, yeah, which can be awkward sometimes. Well, let's hang this coat. Do you have anything else?
Deborah (56:28):
I don't except to say that classy is a state of mind.
Robin (56:32):
Mind your classiness. Everybody? Goodbye, everyone. Goodbye. You.
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