November 26, 2024 • 46 mins
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host KiKi L'Italien, host of Association Chat, leads a conversation with award-winning leaders Lori Anderson, President and CEO of the International Sign Association, and Debra BenAvram, CEO of the Association for the Advancement of Blood and Biotherapies. The conversation delves into authentic leadership, highlighting the importance of amplifying women’s voices and fostering community within the association world. Lori and Debra share their personal leadership journeys, reflecting on pivotal moments, influential mentors, and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. Topics include overcoming challenges, the value of mentorship and peer networks, and the significance of foresight in navigating leadership complexities. They also discuss strategies for maintaining personal growth and resilience, with practical insights on mindfulness and intentional time management.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://youtu.be/bhWVK64OpzQ?feature=sharedAssociations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
Transcript
KiKi L'Italien 00:00 Welcome to the Associations NOW Presents podcast, I'm your guest host, KiKi L'Italien, and if you're thinking, "Hey, I know that name or I know that voice," you're right. It's because you usually hear me over at Association Chat. But today, I'm excited to be hosting this special episode of Associations NOW Presents, because we're continuing this powerful conversation that really started at what's called ASAE's The Exchange. And this is a women's leadership event that is really special, and our focus today to continue on this discussion is authentic leadership. We're talking about authentic leadership, the power of women's voices, and how we can build a supportive community in the association space. So joining me are two inspiring, award winning leaders, Lori Anderson, President and CEO of the International Sign Association, and Debra BenAvram, CEO of Association for the Advancement of Blood and Biotherapies. So I want to just do this, and start out at the very start, to just say congratulations, because, as I understand it, even though you've both won awards before, you have just recently been recognized, Lori as 2025 Trade Association Executive of the Year, and Debra, you were recognized as a 2025 Professional Society Association Executive of the Year. Congratulations to both of you.
01:33 Thank you so much
KiKi L'Italien 01:34 Yes, it's really amazing to be here. And I have to say, I have followed your work for many years and watched you in this space, recognized leaders. And so what I thought we could do today is just start off by talking about your personal journeys into leadership, because I know that each path is unique. Definitely in the association industry, there can be many different ways that we get to where we are, but I'm sure that there are shared experiences that have shaped both of you. So I thought what we would do is maybe start with what inspired you to step into these leadership roles. So were there pivotal moments or mentors who helped guide you along the way? So Debra, I'm starting with you. What about it? What made you decide to step into this leadership role in the first place?
Debra BenAvram 02:25 Thanks you so much, KiKi. I would love to tell you that I had this grand plan from the age of five to become a leader and to do it by this age and set all those goals. That's really never been my style. So when I was thinking about what sort of led me to this moment, I think what I might have been was not savvy enough to realize that I wasn't supposed to ask questions or ask permission, and just always threw myself into opportunities. My last organization, when there was a clear need for a new strategic plan or a new area that we needed staff leadership in, I r
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Episode Transcript
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KiKi L'Italien (00:00):
Welcome to the Associations NOW Presents
(00:02):
podcast, I'm your guest host,KiKi L'Italien, and if you're
thinking, "Hey, I know that nameor I know that voice," you're
right. It's because you usuallyhear me over at Association
Chat. But today, I'm excited tobe hosting this special episode
of Associations NOW Presents,because we're continuing this
(00:23):
powerful conversation thatreally started at what's called
ASAE's The Exchange. And this isa women's leadership event that
is really special, and our focustoday to continue on this
discussion is authenticleadership. We're talking about
authentic leadership, the powerof women's voices, and how we
(00:44):
can build a supportive communityin the association space. So
joining me are two inspiring,award winning leaders, Lori
Anderson, President and CEO ofthe International Sign
Association, and Debra BenAvram,CEO of Association for the
Advancement of Blood andBiotherapies. So I want to just
(01:04):
do this, and start out at thevery start, to just say
congratulations, because, as Iunderstand it, even though
you've both won awards before,you have just recently been
recognized, Lori as 2025 TradeAssociation Executive of the
Year, and Debra, you wererecognized as a 2025
Professional Society AssociationExecutive of the Year.
(01:27):
Congratulations to both of you.
Thank you so much
Yes, it's really amazing to behere. And I have to say, I have
followed your work for manyyears and watched you in this
space, recognized leaders. Andso what I thought we could do
today is just start off bytalking about your personal
(01:49):
journeys into leadership,because I know that each path is
unique. Definitely in theassociation industry, there can
be many different ways that weget to where we are, but I'm
sure that there are sharedexperiences that have shaped
both of you. So I thought whatwe would do is maybe start with
what inspired you to step intothese leadership roles. So were
(02:13):
there pivotal moments or mentorswho helped guide you along the
way? So Debra, I'm starting withyou. What about it? What made
you decide to step into thisleadership role in the first place?
Debra BenAvram (02:25):
Thanks you so much, KiKi. I would love to tell
you that I had this grand planfrom the age of five to become a
leader and to do it by this ageand set all those goals. That's
really never been my style. Sowhen I was thinking about what
sort of led me to this moment, Ithink what I might have been was
(02:47):
not savvy enough to realize thatI wasn't supposed to ask
questions or ask permission, andjust always threw myself into
opportunities. My lastorganization, when there was a
clear need for a new strategicplan or a new area that we
needed staff leadership in, Iraised my hand and but I did
(03:09):
that by doing it, and I thinkthat, for better or worse, led
me to have lots of differentexperiences that I didn't know
maybe I wasn't supposed to haveor be asking for. And when the
CEO role opened up at thatorganization, I had this
out-of-body moment where theboard was telling me that the
(03:30):
position was now open, and Isaid, "I'm right here. Why don't
you put me in that role?" Andthat was not particularly
characteristic of me, but it iswhat ended up happening. I
applied for the role and tookit, and what inspired me was
that I saw I could be thechange. I saw what change could
be. I saw what possibilitieswere. And I love the power of
(03:53):
associations and bringing peopletogether. And I think we do that
with our staff, and we do thatwith our volunteers and our
members. I just love that. Itwas really inspired. And I
wanted the opportunity to domore, to keep throwing my hat in
and keep bringing that forwardand growing the business and
growing the value that we weredelivering to our members. And I
(04:16):
loved what I did there, and Igot to, now, get to do that at a
different organization, in termsof what maybe mentors or who
inspire me. A pivotal moment forme in terms of putting myself
around the right colleagues wasat an ASAE Annual Meeting
shortly after I became CEO. Sothis is going back long time and
(04:40):
Arlene Pietranton and the lateJohn Graham led a round table
for young CEOs—because I used tobe a young CEO—and there were
not so many of us at that time,but we sat around this table,
and I got to see not only meetcolleagues, some of whom today
are among my very best friends,both within the association,
(05:00):
community and personally. But Igot to see what it looked like
to be a giving colleague and tobe around colleagues like Arlene
and John, who were just freelysharing their experiences that
moment in time which I can seein my head as I'm telling you
this story that led me torecognize I needed to get into
(05:21):
peer groups because I wasreinventing wheels, and I was
alone. No matter what level ofleader you are, you're alone in
some way, shape or form. Andvery quickly, I got myself into
a few different peer groups andtried them out. And some fit,
some didn't. And I learned howto build a community, a kitchen
cabinet of people that I couldlearn from that were similar to
(05:45):
me, that were different from me,that had more experience or less
experience than me. And thatgift, really, that got from what
I learned from ASAEcolleagues—whether I did that
within the framework of ASAE ornot—that is what I really credit
the rest of my career journey tothis day is being in this
(06:06):
community and building peernetworks within it that I can
learn from with, be vulnerablewith and learn from each other's
experiences.
KiKi L'Italien (06:16):
When you are talking about that, it resonates
so much, because I think, whatif we didn't have some of these
important connections that wehad made? And it really is, you
can get so much further when youhave those relationships in
place, and you can ask thequestions and get the
information that you need, ormake the connections that you
(06:37):
need to in order to advance. Howabout you, Lori? What about for
you? What was your story?
Lori Anderson (06:43):
That's a has some similarities to Debra, when my
very first career was a teacher.And I knew I didn't want to do
that forever. And I quit withoutany plan, and that was
terrifying. So I look back atthe things that have helped me
grow. It's that I do things thatare scary, but I ask for help,
(07:07):
and asking for help is critical.I found a career coach because I
literally had no idea what Iwanted to do, and I remember the
restaurant we were in. Iremember the table we were in,
and he asked me a pivotalquestion that changed my life.
And the question was, "What getsyou hot? What gets you mad? What
(07:27):
gets you boiling?" And at thetime, it had to do with
politics, whoever was in officeat the time. And he said, "Why
don't you do something there?"And I went, "I can't do that.
I'm a former music teacher." Andhe goes, "Why not?" And it got
me thinking, why not. And ittook me nine months to convince
a member of Congress to hire aformer music teacher. And it was
(07:51):
scary. Those nine months Ididn't have a job, and all of a
sudden I was in a position ofdoing something that I was just
really passionate about, andpeople would be coming and
lobbying me. And I thought maybeI could do that. So then I
started looking at getting alobbying job, and I happened to
(08:12):
land in an association where theVice President of Government
Relations was also involved inmusic. So there was this music
connection, I think he sang forthe Kennedy Center Choir or
something like that. And hiswife was a music teacher, so we
had that weird connection rightaway. And he was such a mentor,
and he threw me into like Deb,gave me challenges, and just saw
(08:38):
what was in me, that I wasn'tjust a former music teacher,
right? I had a lot to offer, andhe kept challenging me and
giving me assignments that Ithought I could never do, but he
also encouraged me to join, andin this particular association,
there was no other member ofASAE, and it was a large
(09:00):
Association, and I joined ASAE,I joined Women in Government
Relations. I joined WGRToastmasters. I honed my
speaking abilities, and thoseconnections got me where I am.
In fact, the recruiter whocalled me for my current
position knew I was lookingthrough WGR Toastmasters, and
(09:26):
she recommended to the recruiterto call me. It's all about
connections. It's all aboutfinding people. And when I
started at ISA, I needed newconnections. I wasn't really in
government affairs anymore. Iwas in a leadership role. I
joined CEO groups. Debra and Imet in a CEO group, and then we
(09:48):
ended up on the as a boardtogether at the same time. And
so our leadership pathsfollowed. That the importance of
reaching out and connecting toother folks. And even now,
there's not a question I get.What do I do with this
particular problem? You have agroup of people, groups of
(10:11):
people who can help answer thequestion, and that's the beauty
of associations, becauseeveryone's willing to help, and
the people who are willing tohelp. They really become your
network, your support group,when things get really tough or
when things are going great.
KiKi L'Italien (10:29):
Okay, first of all, I know so much more about
you now. This is fascinating,and I have follow up questions
for when we meet up at somethingdown the road, what type of
music? What got you involved?But we're not going there today,
I noticed some themes in both ofyour responses so far,
definitely about the communityand the importance of
connections, but then also, it'sthose connections that were
(10:52):
helping you overcome challenges.And so I wanted to ask this
question about when you lookback and you think about your
leadership style and what you'velearned over the years, what
specific challenges oropportunities have influenced
your leadership style within theassociation world.
Debra BenAvram (11:12):
For me, I feel that every experience, every
challenge that we each face asleaders, our leadership
journeys, our philosophies, ourunderstanding of ourselves and
how to really amplify ourstrengths and own where we need
to say it's not our bailiwick.To me, I think that I'm always
(11:35):
doing that. So I could give youan example like COVID or a
turnaround, which I've doneseveral of. But ultimately, I
think it's not always the big itfeels in leadership, like it's
these big, pivotal moments, buteven how we respond in those
big, pivotal moments is becauseof all of the small moments
(11:57):
along the way that are how webuild our philosophy. So my
philosophies around silo lists,ideally organizations and staff
empowerment and volunteerempowerment and transformation
of culture that came from notone experience. It came from so
many different things. Yeah,
KiKi L'Italien (12:19):
I think that those challenges, they're what
makes us, hopefully, strongerwhen we make it through it, when
we get on the other side of it.But I think that it's not hard
to say that. I'd say over thepast five years, being an
association leader has maybe hadmore than its fair share of
challenges compared to justtaking a look around the world
(12:42):
and what's happening maybe alittle bit more challenging.
It's definitely, I think, forboth of you to have been going
through this leadership journeytogether, to be learning
alongside each other, and thenalso to be winning these awards
together. It's amazing thatthere are these sort of
milestone moments that you'veshared in leadership along the
(13:02):
way. Lori, have you thought of achallenge that maybe, I don't
know, helped you hone yourleadership style or figure out
who you are as a leader today?
Lori Anderson (13:11):
That is continually evolving, right?
It's not stagnant. I rememberhearing things and those may be
the start of a switch, right?You just hear even somebody ask
you one question, like thecareer counselor back when I was
very young, "What gets you mad?"The question that changed my
life. The things I hear a topexecutive of the company,
(13:33):
Freeman, I was at an event, andshe asked to write down on a
piece of paper to describe myorganization's culture, and I
was "oh my gosh. I don't know ifI can." I know what I think it
is, but I don't know what myteam is that led a whole multi
year journey into creating aculture statement that one
little question. When I firststarted at ISA, there was a
(13:57):
hesitancy of the board. Thegovernance was pretty broken,
and the board was not willing atthe time to learn how to be a
better board. There was onechair who I suggested, how about
we go to a CEO symposium andjust see if we can learn how to
be better? And we sat in thatroom, and the light bulbs went
(14:18):
off for him, that there is abetter way to function as an
organization, and that openedthe window just a little. And I
think about the bigtransformations I've done is
when the window opens a littleand you say that breeze is
coming through, I want to bringon the wind, right? And you take
(14:40):
little steps, and it results inthat big transformation. I've
heard other people say youshould never be in an
organization more than fiveyears because you stagnate. At
first, I listened to that andthought I was doing something
wrong, and then I realized Ineed to listen to myself if I'm
continually challenged. You. IfI'm continually finding new
(15:02):
growth, and I love who I workwith, and I enjoy their company
every day, and I appreciate andhave the support of my board,
Why limit myself to five years?It's been 20 years with the
organization, and I'm neverbored, and I always have
challenges, and so I keeplooking for these little
(15:22):
windows. Now, if the window isconstantly shut, then maybe I
should look somewhere else, orthat someone should look
somewhere else. But if youalways have that opportunity for
a new breeze to come through andto ride on that breeze a little
bit, then go for it.
KiKi L'Italien (15:39):
That's really fascinating. I'm thinking about
how we're hearing you should belistening to others. You should
be talking with others andlearning from others, but maybe
also knowing when you shouldn'tlisten to others and to listen
to yourself too, not to forgetthat part. So one of the
questions I wanted to ask youboth had to do more about
(16:02):
mentorship, and especially foryoung professionals, people who
are maybe early in theircareers, who are trying to
figure out, yeah, this mentor,how do I find the right people?
How do I find my group, mykitchen cabinet, and when they
begin to seek out building thatsort of that connection and that
(16:23):
network. How would you advisethem to go about fostering
meaningful connections that cantruly help them? Because I think
at least in my situation, Iwould say in my experience, I've
had to learn right because noteveryone should be a part of
that group, but you shouldn'tlisten to all of the voices. So
Debra, I know you had shared alittle bit earlier about how you
(16:46):
found these different groups. Sodo you have any thoughts on
this?
Debra BenAvram (16:50):
Yeah, I have definitely have thoughts around
how to approach finding mentors.To me, the first place it starts
with is introspection. What areyou looking for yourself? So
you're looking for an advisorwho can tell you what to do when
you don't know how. I'm not surethat always exists, but that
might be more of a coach, anexecutive coach. Are you looking
(17:13):
for someone to prop you up andhelp you develop? Are you
looking for shared experiences,which is different from advice,
but we can glean ideas which isreally important. And you may be
looking for all of those things,but your journey around them is
really different. And Lori said,with her example, everyone's
(17:34):
looking for your career journey,your mentorship path. It's
yours, just because people talkall the time about aspiring CEOs
and get a mentor to help you beCEO Well, you know, this job is
for some people, not foreveryone. You need to think
about what you want to do andwhat are the things you need to
build in your toolkit. And then,okay, so then who are the right
(17:56):
types of people to be around todo that? And by the way, that's
multi-directional. You havepeople reporting to you or
within your organization who aredifferent levels, who are
amazing mentors, who you learnfrom all the time. You don't
have to call someone and say,will you be my mentor? And let's
match on an app here. There'slots of ways to engage and be
(18:18):
mentor. I think that when wethink about what that looks
like, what we want from eachgroup, each person, I would
encourage emerging leaders tothen prioritize, right? So for
me, I really liked peer groupsbecause I got a lot out of that.
And I tell my team all the time,you have all the power put a
(18:41):
note on ASAE Collaborate, andyou will have more people than
you know what to do with for anew peer group. But that is
doable. Talk to people and askthem to find one or two. But the
more clarity you have aroundwhat you're looking to learn,
what experiences you're tryingto be around, the types of
(19:03):
leaders you want to be aroundthat, frankly, are really
different from you. When I callLori with a problem, which I
certainly do, I do not want herto tell me that I'm brilliant. I
want her to give me some actualfeedback. And I need that from
my mentor. If that's what youwant from your mentor? Get
clarity if you call someone tobe a one on one mentor for you,
(19:26):
you meet someone a leader youadmire that maybe shares a
career path that you would liketo explore, or has grown their
position and stayed in the sameposition for a long time. What
are you asking of them? Are youasking them to meet with you
once a month and push you onsomething? What does that mean
to you when that word needssomething different to everyone?
(19:49):
I think that whatever you do,get around people, one on one
groups get around people wherethe interaction. That leaves you
feeling like your bucket isfuller than when you arrived,
and so is theirs, because thoseare the relationships that
you're going to foster andinvest your time in those
(20:13):
experiences, and when it isn'tright, I've been in peer groups
where they're great people, butit's okay to say I got what I
needed out of this experiencefrom a mentorship perspective,
and now I need to move on. Ithink as you do that, you'll
build this cabinet of experts,of thought partners that you'll
(20:35):
learn to count on over yourcareer when you have different
challenges. But it's not allthings. To say, it's, I don't
think one size fits all. Andwhat leadership?
Lori Anderson (20:46):
Yeah,I agreed with Debra completely on this.
And just to add on to that, youneed to go into a peer group or
a relationship, even if it's aone on one mentorship role, I
tend to gear more toward peergroups. I don't know if one
person would have everything Ineeded any given moment. So I
have hundreds of mentors,because I can look around the
(21:07):
room and say, I wish I had moreof that, or that would be great
to explore this way of leading.But very important, you need to
give as much as you get. Becauseif you were in a peer group or a
relationship, and you are justsucking out answers, and you're
not stopping everything to helpsomeone else. There's a level of
(21:29):
trust that doesn't happen. Ireally try every time in my many
groups, when a question comesby, I don't know the answer, but
I know someone who may, and Iconnect them, because the true
value of being in an associationis that village, and it's
unique. I don't know if manyother professions that have this
(21:52):
type of supported atmosphere,maybe because most of us aren't
direct competitors, therefore wearen't at each other
competitively. Deb's members arenothing like my members at all,
and so we can share more, but Istop everything, and that
includes with former employeeswho have reached out to me and
say, I need a new change. I dropeverything. I connect them with
(22:14):
recruiters. I get my ear to theground. I put things out to help
them. And you have to give asmuch or even more than you take
from any experience with a peergroup.
KiKi L'Italien (22:26):
So in hearing this again, I'm it's very
affirming, because I think thatanyone who's listening to this
that says it's great, it's maybethey looked into having the
right people around them. WhatI'm hearing is you evolve. You
figure out what works. So don'tfall in love with the idea of
perfection, like you're gonnaland with just the perfect five
(22:49):
people that are going you're andyou're all gonna elevate
together. Maybe you do, but mostof the time it's probably
something more, like you trydifferent things and you figure
out your group that maybe endsup working, and it depends on
what you're looking for. Buthelp; help others too. Don't
just focus on what you can getout of it. So that sounds like
(23:10):
good relationship buildingadvice too, not just for
mentorship, but for life ingeneral, right?
Lori Anderson (23:15):
100%. And sometimes, see, you're in a your
group, and you're thinking, I'mnot getting any value of this.
Or you go to a conference andyou're not getting any value.
Sometimes that one sentence,that one little idea, can
snowball when you get back tothe office and your time away
could be exponentially enhancedjust by that one little germ of
(23:39):
an ace of an idea.
KiKi L'Italien (23:40):
I love this because you're talking about the
crack in the window, and you'retalking about the one little
idea I get, the idea that you'repaying a lot of attention for
that moment of inspiration tohit, where you're able to take
that and learn and grow. And Ithink that we can all learn
something from that. That's agreat approach. I want to shift
(24:01):
gears and maybe talk a littlebit about foresight. That's one
of the things that it's adiscipline that's become more
and more important today, Ithink, because it's such an
unpredictable environment and soLori and Debra, how has
practicing foresight impactedyour approach to leadership,
especially during moments ofuncertainty?
Lori Anderson (24:23):
We've developed at ISA a leadership meeting,
which involves a board and threeother elected steering
committees. We call them, and wehave an annual event in a
January of every year that isn'tabout the current year. And I
did that as purpose, because thebudget's already set, the
(24:45):
organizational plan, all of thatset for that calendar year. Now
we're meeting in January to dowhat to talk about, what next,
not even the next year, but eventwo or three years from now. And
sometimes there's themes to thismeeting, this event, which
started, oh, back in 2013 Iguess, was the first one we did.
(25:08):
It was just the hints being saidabout struggles finding workers
that led to developing an entireworkforce development program.
And each of these events startsto germinate some thoughts on
what are the next challengesthat could be coming down the
pike. We have used ASAEforesight works in this
(25:29):
exercise. We have sometimesfocused on particular themes. We
bring in some keynote speakersthat can help facilitate the
long term. But I think it's themindset that the meeting is not
about the here and now. It's allabout the future. We're in the
next one in January of 25 we'retalking about demographics, or
(25:52):
maybe the importance of addingvalue graphics instead of
demographics. And we're lookingat trying to understand the
values that are inherent in ourstakeholders. We don't know what
that's going to end up, but thatwill be long term. Like, what
does that mean for 26, 27 and29 and beyond? And that's how
(26:13):
we've employed foresight. How itchanges my leadership again, I
think it's back to the samething we've talked about. It's
those little, teeny things,listening for the nuances and
what I can do to challengemyself and to challenge the
organization.
KiKi L'Italien (26:27):
So for people who and Debra, I'm going to go
to you next. For people who arelistening to this and not
watching it, you should justknow that I was back here like
clapping visibly. You can't hearit, but you could see it because
I was so excited about hearingabout the value graphics.
There's some really great workout there by David Allison. He's
(26:47):
the one that coming to ourevent. Yeah, he's remarkable.
You want to follow up on that?Pick up that thread and Debra,
let's talk about it. What is theroll of foresight for you?
Debra BenAvram (26:58):
I'll pick up from where Lori left off. She
gave some really great and I'lladd from a leadership
perspective, and one thing Ithink is really important is to
remember that it is not your jobto have all of the foresight. It
is not your role. It is yourrole to make sure that the
(27:19):
organization and the rightpeople are having that
conversation, and that can bevery hard as we continue on our
leadership journeys, to rememberthat our superpower isn't
knowing how to do everything orabout everything, it's knowing
how to create the environmentswhere the right things end up
happening, and making sure thatthat's also the expectation of
(27:45):
you for whoever it is that youreport to that you're having
that conversation. What are theexpectations that might be for
you with foresight, if you havedeep subject matter expertise,
that's going to be differentthan if you don't, but that
conversation is reallyimportant. And then how you're
leveraging your board. What'sthe board culture? Some boards
(28:07):
don't love to have really bigpicture, pie in the sky
conversations, and then yourrole in that leadership
development journey for them isvery different than if you are
working with a board that hasbeen doing that for a long time.
For me, a tactic that I alwaysemploy, no matter what role I'm
in, is sort of setting someNorth Stars like, what are the
(28:30):
things that are for me reallyalways going to be true,
transparency, risk taking,possibilities, growth mindset,
when I can bring those into theforesight conversation as a
leader, those are my tools. Iuse those tools to hopefully
open possibilities up forothers. So an example for me
(28:50):
would be as AABB explored thenew frontier of bio therapies,
which we're really positioningAABB in the same thread from
lorries of workforcedevelopment, we were able to
problem spot what's a problem inthe industry that's no one's
going to have solved in threeyears, when we would come out
(29:10):
with a solution, and we ended updelivering the first in field
credential. We stood up anentire credentialing program and
delivered that, but we wouldn'thave done that if we weren't
talking about what's coming downthe pike. We have to be able to
see around corners, and that's askill set that we don't all
(29:31):
have, and that our teams, ourstaff and our leaders don't
always have. So focusing on howwe develop that create
environments for people to learnthose skills and ASAE foresight
works is a really fantastictool.
KiKi L'Italien (29:45):
Speaking of looking around corners and all
of that, what I'm hearing isthat you both have expressed
that being adaptable, I'mparaphrasing, but being
adaptable, being flexible. Sorecognizing where your resources
are that may not originate withyou, that you don't have to have
(30:06):
all of the answers yourself, butto look around for those
opportunities or those insightsthat you can take to help guide
and lead and maybe open up thoseconversations that will help to
get the organization into thedirection it needs to go in. We
can't have a conversation aboutwomen and leadership without
(30:28):
addressing this Glass Cliffphenomenon. And for those who
aren't familiar with that, manywomen find themselves promoted
to these high stakes rolesduring times of crisis, and this
is called the Glass Cliffphenomenon, where it's like, oh,
you're thrust into this positionof authority, and now you need
(30:48):
to solve all of these problems.And for many women, when they
find themselves in this role,it's shocking. I don't know
anyone who is just thank you forgiving me this chance to feel
like I'm in a precarioussituation. Have either of you
felt this or faced thischallenge?
Lori Anderson (31:04):
I was by my first boss in the association world,
who I admire greatly, and he wasthe first person I invited to
come to the awards ceremony.He's long retired and doesn't
live around here anymore, but hemeant so much to me because he
really supported me. He alsowelcomed my inquiries into how
(31:26):
to improve myself. For example,it was a light bulb moment when
I was told we need aninternational program Lori,
create one. I'm simplifying it.And this is a pretty big
industry. What? But I realizedthat I didn't need to have the
(31:47):
answers. But if I could help acommittee succeed, then all of a
sudden, everything grows. And soI asked my boss, I went, I would
like to take meetingfacilitation training, and
here's a course, can you send meup to Boston for a week? And he
said, Yes. And from that moment,it was like this sliding door
(32:09):
moment, because I wasstruggling. I didn't know how to
keep things going, I didn't knowwhat to do, and I gained skills
into learning that it wasn't mewho needs the answers, but I
could learn how to ask the rightquestions to get a group to
figure it out, and all of asudden, the groups I was now
(32:30):
assigned more and more groups tolead, that they were succeeding,
and that not only helped theorganization succeed, it helped
My career succeed. And I stillemploy that same philosophy to
where I am. Now it's I don'thave the answers, but if I can
help in any way to ask the rightquestions to get to an answer,
(32:52):
then we're all in a betterplace.
KiKi L'Italien (32:55):
That's so interesting. Something you said,
it made me think about an issuethat I just came across with the
organization that I work with,and that is that I think that
something that you did there,not only did you recognize that
you didn't need to have all theanswers yourself and that you
could explore, but a committeecould help, but you also sought
(33:17):
training. You looked fortraining, and you proactively
went out and said, Ah, here isthe training I could use. And
then you went about figuring outif you could get it. And it's
fascinating, because theorganization I work with just
recently, the CEO came up andsaid, we have this budget for
(33:38):
training, but no one's askingfor additional training like
they people weren't coming,proactively going and saying, we
need this. And I think it'sreally interesting that here you
have listeners, here you havesomeone who is an award winning
leader, who is saying, Irealized that I needed this
(33:58):
additional training, and youweren't afraid, she wasn't
afraid to go after it. So that'ssomething that I thought was
interesting, that you sharedthere, that I think is a
differentiator, maybe for somepeople who been asked to do this
thing, and I don't know how todo it, it's maybe looking
around, yeah, to see what'saround you. But also, what do I
(34:19):
need to learn? What do I need todo?
Lori Anderson (34:21):
And I still do this, KiKi. In 2023 I was
stuck. I didn't know how to getout of my rut. I sought an
executive coach, and I soughtone that could basically slap me
a little bit get me out of myrut, not somebody who is warm
and fuzzy, but somebody whocould really push my comfort
zones. And I've used coachesthroughout my career in various
(34:43):
parts of my career, and I justneeded one. So yes, back way
ages ago, I sought out help inlearning how to be a better
meeting facilitator, but I stilldo that to this day.
KiKi L'Italien (34:56):
Oh, good. That's so good. How about you, Debra?
Have you worked with coaches?Have you gone out and gone after
those additional trainingmoments?
Debra BenAvram (35:05):
Absolutely, I've worked with coaches for a long
time, and knowing what you wantout of that relationship, and
Lori said she want to kick inthe pants, so that's going to
help you find the right coachfor me as well. Training for me,
one of the things more recentlythat I've been working on is
getting exposure to the businessworld outside of association. So
(35:30):
I joined an organization calledYPO, which is a young
professional organization, CEOs,global CEO organization, very
few non profits andassociations. That's giving me a
completely different opportunityto develop new skills and
exposure to new types ofbusinesses, because we all know
associations are businesses.It's our tax status that we
(35:51):
benefit from, but the end of theday, the numbers do have to add
up. So I knew that was exposurethat I need, because I know the
association space. Where do Itake it next in this very fast
changing world? I think whenwe're put into a new
opportunity, there's a crisishappening, and we feel this
(36:11):
weight as leaders, that someonehas trusted us, an organization
has trusted us, our boss hastrusted us to solve the problem
or to find the solution, and wefall into this trap. And I think
a lot of female leadersdefinitely fall into this trap
of thinking that being thechampion for the solution means
(36:36):
being alone and being the onlyone who can do and to both
strategically think and do andbe the answer. And sometimes we
put that on ourselves. Sometimesit's put upon us, to be honest,
but sometimes we put that onourselves. When I think about
those moments when I've askedsomeone in a crisis to take
(36:57):
something on, and when it's beena part of my own experience, I'm
thinking about buildingtransparency, which I share is
one of my North Stars oftransparency and being clear on
communication along the way,celebrating small wins. Don't
wait until the end to find out.Like your one ends like glory.
Just shared how she was talkingalong the way. Can I do this?
(37:19):
Can I you're sharing yourthought pattern, so your
leadership, your excellence,what you bring, don't wait till
the end, the end and outcome ofthe New International Strategy,
which was what you were asked todo in the example you gave Lori,
make sure that you're exposingwhoever you're talking to with
(37:40):
your thinking, How do you think?How are you showing that you're
expanding? What are thequestions you're asking to look
outside the particular area ofyour portfolio, to connect the
dots to other areas of thebusiness and to other aspects of
how the business connects to thebroader world around you. When
you give people the opportunityto see have a window into your
(38:04):
brain that lets them engage,that brings intellectual
curiosity from them, and you'rehaving conversations along the
way. Something I'm not strong inis making sure to celebrate
strong wins. I know about myselfI'm like, three years from now
already, I'm excited about thewin, but my brain's moved on, so
making sure that I'mcommunicating those small wins,
(38:25):
and making sure that you'readjusting your plans, your
experience based on your newknowledge, the skills you're
developing, but also thefeedback that you're getting. In
other words, don't put it onyourself to be alone. Let
somebody tell you're alone, butuntil they tell you're alone,
figure out how to engage otherscommunicate really effectively
(38:49):
and share what you need toshare, to highlight what you're
doing, and highlight where youneed others to plug in.
KiKi L'Italien (38:57):
Wow. This is like a master class in
leadership, because Debra, thatis a growing edge for me that I
have to work on. Thiscelebrating the wins, but
showing that thinking along theway so other people can learn,
celebrate, understand andbelieve in and be part of your
parade, versus like watchingfrom the side and It being some
(39:20):
big mystery, this window intoyour brain approach so important
to be able to communicate likethat, so that other people can
buy in along the way. And Ithink that's such a great point.
I think of it is showing yourwork. I was always getting in
trouble in school for notshowing my work. I had to, and
I'm like, oh, but they have towrite it out. And I think that's
(39:42):
something that, even to thisday, it's, yeah, show your work,
let other people in on it,because, hey, guess what? Maybe
they can contribute, or maybethey can join your parade and
get excited about the thingsthat you're doing. It's not
something to be fearful of,which I think is what holds me
back. Sometimes, some. Pickapart my ideas and all of this,
(40:02):
but it's something where it's anopportunity, right? And it's
only something that can helpbuild trust. So that's a great
point. I have one more question.I could really, honestly, I
think, talk to you both for along time, but I have one more
question that has to do withjust being a leader. It has its
own set of demands. I thinkwe've all decided a long time
(40:24):
ago that there is no balancewith life, right? You're just
always trying to figure out yourbest, but it's challenging when
you're trying to do all of thesethings beyond the career skills,
what areas of personal growthfor you have been essential to
your success and your resilienceas leaders. Are there other
areas of your life where it'snot just going out and getting
(40:45):
say that training andfacilitation or working with
committees or what have you, orlearning about what it's like to
be entrepreneurial and that kindof thing, but is there something
in your own personal growthoutside of those things,
directly impacting your skillsat work, that you look at, that
helps you, that you find, thatis essential to your success.
Lori Anderson (41:09):
It's a mindfulness journey for me. I
have gone to mindful retreats. Istarted meditating many years
ago. I'm grateful to say it'smany years ago now, and 2007 I
went through a cancer journey.So I'm a breast cancer survivor,
and what they don't tell youwhen you go through it is the
hardest part mentally, is afteryou go through all the
(41:31):
treatments, because then youimagine that every hangnail and
every thing is possibly anotherround of it, right? And in this
process, I discovered theimportance of mine. I read books
I had Tolle's "Power of Now,"and some other books by various
(41:51):
monks, etc, that more appreciatethe present moment and not
constantly imagine what's next,because what you imagine is that
it's imagination. It's not real,and that's a continuous process,
and that is a journey we are allon to various degree, and you
(42:15):
never complete it. You never winit. And being comfortable with
the moment at hand is maybe thebiggest challenge we could ever
face.
Debra BenAvram (42:25):
Beautiful. I wish I could tell you I had the
kind of mindfulness practicethat Lori has developed and that
I admire so much I I'm a littlebit more of a work in progress
that maybe I care to met, but Ithink that for me, over the
course of my career that I'veebbed and flowed and COVID
(42:47):
really helped me open my eyes tomaking good choices about how I
decide to spend my time and howI decide to spend my
discretionary time. And we couldgo to dinner with an ASAE
colleague every other night. Wecan go to everything we get
invited to, and we can, I can,I'll own the statement, then
(43:08):
really end up not getting muchout of any of those experiences.
So what I've tried to do in myown practice, in my own life, is
really be intentional about howI'm spending my time and how I
want to show up for myself andfor others. How does that
translate? It translates intoI've said no to some things, and
(43:30):
I've stepped back from somethings that maybe I gave to
maybe I did that had run theircourse, and I've stepped up into
other things that have reallybeen a bigger part of what I
want to do. So some of those aremaking sure to spend time or
travel with my son, who's aninternational athlete. So that's
(43:50):
one on one time when I can'talways work having that special
time. We have dinner as a familyevery night. That's hard to do,
I know, but that's what happensin the BenAvram house. Our son's
21. He's a college now, but westill do that with our daughter,
and then making choices aroundspirituality and around the
things that really, from avolunteer perspective, make a
(44:14):
difference. For me, my familysupports an orphanage in eastern
Uganda that helps girls whowould otherwise be on the street
and double down on that and afew other really important
issues that for me fill mybucket, even though their time,
that allow me to use the skillsI have built in my career as a
(44:38):
leader, but allow me to getsomething very different out of
that, and then bring that backto my family. So I'm still on
that journey, but I think I'mgetting much better at choosing
the things that from a timeperspective, I both give and
have a meaningful ROI inwhatever it is for me that I
(44:59):
decide that needs to be.
KiKi L'Italien (45:01):
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I can't tell you
both how much I it was just sucha pleasure to speak with both of
you today, and I've learnedsomething, and I know that the
listeners are going to learnsomething too. So thank you both
for sharing your wisdom and yourinsights.
Debra BenAvram (45:20):
Thank you so much, KiKi and Lori, always a
pleasure. Thank you.
Lori Anderson (45:25):
I can't wait to share the stage with you in
March. It's so exciting. Andthank you, KiKi, for this
opportunity.
KiKi L'Italien (45:31):
So I just want to say to our listeners, thank
you for joining us. Be sure tosubscribe to the associations
now podcast on Apple, Spotify,or wherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts. For even moreassociation goodness, visit
associationsnow.com, ASAE, ofcourse. And then if my voice
(45:51):
didn't completely rattle yourcage, you might want to check
out my regular podcast, theAssociation Chat podcast, which
you can find over onassociationchat.com, until next
time everyone, stay true to yourvision, keep sharing your
stories and remember everyconversation offers a chance for
change you.
Welcome to the Associations NOW Presents
(00:02):
podcast, I'm your guest host,KiKi L'Italien, and if you're
thinking, "Hey, I know that nameor I know that voice," you're
right. It's because you usuallyhear me over at Association
Chat. But today, I'm excited tobe hosting this special episode
of Associations NOW Presents,because we're continuing this
(00:23):
powerful conversation thatreally started at what's called
ASAE's The Exchange. And this isa women's leadership event that
is really special, and our focustoday to continue on this
discussion is authenticleadership. We're talking about
authentic leadership, the powerof women's voices, and how we
(00:44):
can build a supportive communityin the association space. So
joining me are two inspiring,award winning leaders, Lori
Anderson, President and CEO ofthe International Sign
Association, and Debra BenAvram,CEO of Association for the
Advancement of Blood andBiotherapies. So I want to just
(01:04):
do this, and start out at thevery start, to just say
congratulations, because, as Iunderstand it, even though
you've both won awards before,you have just recently been
recognized, Lori as 2025 TradeAssociation Executive of the
Year, and Debra, you wererecognized as a 2025
Professional Society AssociationExecutive of the Year.
(01:27):
Congratulations to both of you.
Thank you so much
Yes, it's really amazing to behere. And I have to say, I have
followed your work for manyyears and watched you in this
space, recognized leaders. Andso what I thought we could do
today is just start off bytalking about your personal
(01:49):
journeys into leadership,because I know that each path is
unique. Definitely in theassociation industry, there can
be many different ways that weget to where we are, but I'm
sure that there are sharedexperiences that have shaped
both of you. So I thought whatwe would do is maybe start with
what inspired you to step intothese leadership roles. So were
(02:13):
there pivotal moments or mentorswho helped guide you along the
way? So Debra, I'm starting withyou. What about it? What made
you decide to step into thisleadership role in the first place?
Debra BenAvram (02:25):
Thanks you so much, KiKi. I would love to tell
you that I had this grand planfrom the age of five to become a
leader and to do it by this ageand set all those goals. That's
really never been my style. Sowhen I was thinking about what
sort of led me to this moment, Ithink what I might have been was
(02:47):
not savvy enough to realize thatI wasn't supposed to ask
questions or ask permission, andjust always threw myself into
opportunities. My lastorganization, when there was a
clear need for a new strategicplan or a new area that we
needed staff leadership in, Iraised my hand and but I did
(03:09):
that by doing it, and I thinkthat, for better or worse, led
me to have lots of differentexperiences that I didn't know
maybe I wasn't supposed to haveor be asking for. And when the
CEO role opened up at thatorganization, I had this
out-of-body moment where theboard was telling me that the
(03:30):
position was now open, and Isaid, "I'm right here. Why don't
you put me in that role?" Andthat was not particularly
characteristic of me, but it iswhat ended up happening. I
applied for the role and tookit, and what inspired me was
that I saw I could be thechange. I saw what change could
be. I saw what possibilitieswere. And I love the power of
(03:53):
associations and bringing peopletogether. And I think we do that
with our staff, and we do thatwith our volunteers and our
members. I just love that. Itwas really inspired. And I
wanted the opportunity to domore, to keep throwing my hat in
and keep bringing that forwardand growing the business and
growing the value that we weredelivering to our members. And I
(04:16):
loved what I did there, and Igot to, now, get to do that at a
different organization, in termsof what maybe mentors or who
inspire me. A pivotal moment forme in terms of putting myself
around the right colleagues wasat an ASAE Annual Meeting
shortly after I became CEO. Sothis is going back long time and
(04:40):
Arlene Pietranton and the lateJohn Graham led a round table
for young CEOs—because I used tobe a young CEO—and there were
not so many of us at that time,but we sat around this table,
and I got to see not only meetcolleagues, some of whom today
are among my very best friends,both within the association,
(05:00):
community and personally. But Igot to see what it looked like
to be a giving colleague and tobe around colleagues like Arlene
and John, who were just freelysharing their experiences that
moment in time which I can seein my head as I'm telling you
this story that led me torecognize I needed to get into
(05:21):
peer groups because I wasreinventing wheels, and I was
alone. No matter what level ofleader you are, you're alone in
some way, shape or form. Andvery quickly, I got myself into
a few different peer groups andtried them out. And some fit,
some didn't. And I learned howto build a community, a kitchen
cabinet of people that I couldlearn from that were similar to
(05:45):
me, that were different from me,that had more experience or less
experience than me. And thatgift, really, that got from what
I learned from ASAEcolleagues—whether I did that
within the framework of ASAE ornot—that is what I really credit
the rest of my career journey tothis day is being in this
(06:06):
community and building peernetworks within it that I can
learn from with, be vulnerablewith and learn from each other's
experiences.
KiKi L'Italien (06:16):
When you are talking about that, it resonates
so much, because I think, whatif we didn't have some of these
important connections that wehad made? And it really is, you
can get so much further when youhave those relationships in
place, and you can ask thequestions and get the
information that you need, ormake the connections that you
(06:37):
need to in order to advance. Howabout you, Lori? What about for
you? What was your story?
Lori Anderson (06:43):
That's a has some similarities to Debra, when my
very first career was a teacher.And I knew I didn't want to do
that forever. And I quit withoutany plan, and that was
terrifying. So I look back atthe things that have helped me
grow. It's that I do things thatare scary, but I ask for help,
(07:07):
and asking for help is critical.I found a career coach because I
literally had no idea what Iwanted to do, and I remember the
restaurant we were in. Iremember the table we were in,
and he asked me a pivotalquestion that changed my life.
And the question was, "What getsyou hot? What gets you mad? What
(07:27):
gets you boiling?" And at thetime, it had to do with
politics, whoever was in officeat the time. And he said, "Why
don't you do something there?"And I went, "I can't do that.
I'm a former music teacher." Andhe goes, "Why not?" And it got
me thinking, why not. And ittook me nine months to convince
a member of Congress to hire aformer music teacher. And it was
(07:51):
scary. Those nine months Ididn't have a job, and all of a
sudden I was in a position ofdoing something that I was just
really passionate about, andpeople would be coming and
lobbying me. And I thought maybeI could do that. So then I
started looking at getting alobbying job, and I happened to
(08:12):
land in an association where theVice President of Government
Relations was also involved inmusic. So there was this music
connection, I think he sang forthe Kennedy Center Choir or
something like that. And hiswife was a music teacher, so we
had that weird connection rightaway. And he was such a mentor,
and he threw me into like Deb,gave me challenges, and just saw
(08:38):
what was in me, that I wasn'tjust a former music teacher,
right? I had a lot to offer, andhe kept challenging me and
giving me assignments that Ithought I could never do, but he
also encouraged me to join, andin this particular association,
there was no other member ofASAE, and it was a large
(09:00):
Association, and I joined ASAE,I joined Women in Government
Relations. I joined WGRToastmasters. I honed my
speaking abilities, and thoseconnections got me where I am.
In fact, the recruiter whocalled me for my current
position knew I was lookingthrough WGR Toastmasters, and
(09:26):
she recommended to the recruiterto call me. It's all about
connections. It's all aboutfinding people. And when I
started at ISA, I needed newconnections. I wasn't really in
government affairs anymore. Iwas in a leadership role. I
joined CEO groups. Debra and Imet in a CEO group, and then we
(09:48):
ended up on the as a boardtogether at the same time. And
so our leadership pathsfollowed. That the importance of
reaching out and connecting toother folks. And even now,
there's not a question I get.What do I do with this
particular problem? You have agroup of people, groups of
(10:11):
people who can help answer thequestion, and that's the beauty
of associations, becauseeveryone's willing to help, and
the people who are willing tohelp. They really become your
network, your support group,when things get really tough or
when things are going great.
KiKi L'Italien (10:29):
Okay, first of all, I know so much more about
you now. This is fascinating,and I have follow up questions
for when we meet up at somethingdown the road, what type of
music? What got you involved?But we're not going there today,
I noticed some themes in both ofyour responses so far,
definitely about the communityand the importance of
connections, but then also, it'sthose connections that were
(10:52):
helping you overcome challenges.And so I wanted to ask this
question about when you lookback and you think about your
leadership style and what you'velearned over the years, what
specific challenges oropportunities have influenced
your leadership style within theassociation world.
Debra BenAvram (11:12):
For me, I feel that every experience, every
challenge that we each face asleaders, our leadership
journeys, our philosophies, ourunderstanding of ourselves and
how to really amplify ourstrengths and own where we need
to say it's not our bailiwick.To me, I think that I'm always
(11:35):
doing that. So I could give youan example like COVID or a
turnaround, which I've doneseveral of. But ultimately, I
think it's not always the big itfeels in leadership, like it's
these big, pivotal moments, buteven how we respond in those
big, pivotal moments is becauseof all of the small moments
(11:57):
along the way that are how webuild our philosophy. So my
philosophies around silo lists,ideally organizations and staff
empowerment and volunteerempowerment and transformation
of culture that came from notone experience. It came from so
many different things. Yeah,
KiKi L'Italien (12:19):
I think that those challenges, they're what
makes us, hopefully, strongerwhen we make it through it, when
we get on the other side of it.But I think that it's not hard
to say that. I'd say over thepast five years, being an
association leader has maybe hadmore than its fair share of
challenges compared to justtaking a look around the world
(12:42):
and what's happening maybe alittle bit more challenging.
It's definitely, I think, forboth of you to have been going
through this leadership journeytogether, to be learning
alongside each other, and thenalso to be winning these awards
together. It's amazing thatthere are these sort of
milestone moments that you'veshared in leadership along the
(13:02):
way. Lori, have you thought of achallenge that maybe, I don't
know, helped you hone yourleadership style or figure out
who you are as a leader today?
Lori Anderson (13:11):
That is continually evolving, right?
It's not stagnant. I rememberhearing things and those may be
the start of a switch, right?You just hear even somebody ask
you one question, like thecareer counselor back when I was
very young, "What gets you mad?"The question that changed my
life. The things I hear a topexecutive of the company,
(13:33):
Freeman, I was at an event, andshe asked to write down on a
piece of paper to describe myorganization's culture, and I
was "oh my gosh. I don't know ifI can." I know what I think it
is, but I don't know what myteam is that led a whole multi
year journey into creating aculture statement that one
little question. When I firststarted at ISA, there was a
(13:57):
hesitancy of the board. Thegovernance was pretty broken,
and the board was not willing atthe time to learn how to be a
better board. There was onechair who I suggested, how about
we go to a CEO symposium andjust see if we can learn how to
be better? And we sat in thatroom, and the light bulbs went
(14:18):
off for him, that there is abetter way to function as an
organization, and that openedthe window just a little. And I
think about the bigtransformations I've done is
when the window opens a littleand you say that breeze is
coming through, I want to bringon the wind, right? And you take
(14:40):
little steps, and it results inthat big transformation. I've
heard other people say youshould never be in an
organization more than fiveyears because you stagnate. At
first, I listened to that andthought I was doing something
wrong, and then I realized Ineed to listen to myself if I'm
continually challenged. You. IfI'm continually finding new
(15:02):
growth, and I love who I workwith, and I enjoy their company
every day, and I appreciate andhave the support of my board,
Why limit myself to five years?It's been 20 years with the
organization, and I'm neverbored, and I always have
challenges, and so I keeplooking for these little
(15:22):
windows. Now, if the window isconstantly shut, then maybe I
should look somewhere else, orthat someone should look
somewhere else. But if youalways have that opportunity for
a new breeze to come through andto ride on that breeze a little
bit, then go for it.
KiKi L'Italien (15:39):
That's really fascinating. I'm thinking about
how we're hearing you should belistening to others. You should
be talking with others andlearning from others, but maybe
also knowing when you shouldn'tlisten to others and to listen
to yourself too, not to forgetthat part. So one of the
questions I wanted to ask youboth had to do more about
(16:02):
mentorship, and especially foryoung professionals, people who
are maybe early in theircareers, who are trying to
figure out, yeah, this mentor,how do I find the right people?
How do I find my group, mykitchen cabinet, and when they
begin to seek out building thatsort of that connection and that
(16:23):
network. How would you advisethem to go about fostering
meaningful connections that cantruly help them? Because I think
at least in my situation, Iwould say in my experience, I've
had to learn right because noteveryone should be a part of
that group, but you shouldn'tlisten to all of the voices. So
Debra, I know you had shared alittle bit earlier about how you
(16:46):
found these different groups. Sodo you have any thoughts on
this?
Debra BenAvram (16:50):
Yeah, I have definitely have thoughts around
how to approach finding mentors.To me, the first place it starts
with is introspection. What areyou looking for yourself? So
you're looking for an advisorwho can tell you what to do when
you don't know how. I'm not surethat always exists, but that
might be more of a coach, anexecutive coach. Are you looking
(17:13):
for someone to prop you up andhelp you develop? Are you
looking for shared experiences,which is different from advice,
but we can glean ideas which isreally important. And you may be
looking for all of those things,but your journey around them is
really different. And Lori said,with her example, everyone's
(17:34):
looking for your career journey,your mentorship path. It's
yours, just because people talkall the time about aspiring CEOs
and get a mentor to help you beCEO Well, you know, this job is
for some people, not foreveryone. You need to think
about what you want to do andwhat are the things you need to
build in your toolkit. And then,okay, so then who are the right
(17:56):
types of people to be around todo that? And by the way, that's
multi-directional. You havepeople reporting to you or
within your organization who aredifferent levels, who are
amazing mentors, who you learnfrom all the time. You don't
have to call someone and say,will you be my mentor? And let's
match on an app here. There'slots of ways to engage and be
(18:18):
mentor. I think that when wethink about what that looks
like, what we want from eachgroup, each person, I would
encourage emerging leaders tothen prioritize, right? So for
me, I really liked peer groupsbecause I got a lot out of that.
And I tell my team all the time,you have all the power put a
(18:41):
note on ASAE Collaborate, andyou will have more people than
you know what to do with for anew peer group. But that is
doable. Talk to people and askthem to find one or two. But the
more clarity you have aroundwhat you're looking to learn,
what experiences you're tryingto be around, the types of
(19:03):
leaders you want to be aroundthat, frankly, are really
different from you. When I callLori with a problem, which I
certainly do, I do not want herto tell me that I'm brilliant. I
want her to give me some actualfeedback. And I need that from
my mentor. If that's what youwant from your mentor? Get
clarity if you call someone tobe a one on one mentor for you,
(19:26):
you meet someone a leader youadmire that maybe shares a
career path that you would liketo explore, or has grown their
position and stayed in the sameposition for a long time. What
are you asking of them? Are youasking them to meet with you
once a month and push you onsomething? What does that mean
to you when that word needssomething different to everyone?
(19:49):
I think that whatever you do,get around people, one on one
groups get around people wherethe interaction. That leaves you
feeling like your bucket isfuller than when you arrived,
and so is theirs, because thoseare the relationships that
you're going to foster andinvest your time in those
(20:13):
experiences, and when it isn'tright, I've been in peer groups
where they're great people, butit's okay to say I got what I
needed out of this experiencefrom a mentorship perspective,
and now I need to move on. Ithink as you do that, you'll
build this cabinet of experts,of thought partners that you'll
(20:35):
learn to count on over yourcareer when you have different
challenges. But it's not allthings. To say, it's, I don't
think one size fits all. Andwhat leadership?
Lori Anderson (20:46):
Yeah,I agreed with Debra completely on this.
And just to add on to that, youneed to go into a peer group or
a relationship, even if it's aone on one mentorship role, I
tend to gear more toward peergroups. I don't know if one
person would have everything Ineeded any given moment. So I
have hundreds of mentors,because I can look around the
(21:07):
room and say, I wish I had moreof that, or that would be great
to explore this way of leading.But very important, you need to
give as much as you get. Becauseif you were in a peer group or a
relationship, and you are justsucking out answers, and you're
not stopping everything to helpsomeone else. There's a level of
(21:29):
trust that doesn't happen. Ireally try every time in my many
groups, when a question comesby, I don't know the answer, but
I know someone who may, and Iconnect them, because the true
value of being in an associationis that village, and it's
unique. I don't know if manyother professions that have this
(21:52):
type of supported atmosphere,maybe because most of us aren't
direct competitors, therefore wearen't at each other
competitively. Deb's members arenothing like my members at all,
and so we can share more, but Istop everything, and that
includes with former employeeswho have reached out to me and
say, I need a new change. I dropeverything. I connect them with
(22:14):
recruiters. I get my ear to theground. I put things out to help
them. And you have to give asmuch or even more than you take
from any experience with a peergroup.
KiKi L'Italien (22:26):
So in hearing this again, I'm it's very
affirming, because I think thatanyone who's listening to this
that says it's great, it's maybethey looked into having the
right people around them. WhatI'm hearing is you evolve. You
figure out what works. So don'tfall in love with the idea of
perfection, like you're gonnaland with just the perfect five
(22:49):
people that are going you're andyou're all gonna elevate
together. Maybe you do, but mostof the time it's probably
something more, like you trydifferent things and you figure
out your group that maybe endsup working, and it depends on
what you're looking for. Buthelp; help others too. Don't
just focus on what you can getout of it. So that sounds like
(23:10):
good relationship buildingadvice too, not just for
mentorship, but for life ingeneral, right?
Lori Anderson (23:15):
100%. And sometimes, see, you're in a your
group, and you're thinking, I'mnot getting any value of this.
Or you go to a conference andyou're not getting any value.
Sometimes that one sentence,that one little idea, can
snowball when you get back tothe office and your time away
could be exponentially enhancedjust by that one little germ of
(23:39):
an ace of an idea.
KiKi L'Italien (23:40):
I love this because you're talking about the
crack in the window, and you'retalking about the one little
idea I get, the idea that you'repaying a lot of attention for
that moment of inspiration tohit, where you're able to take
that and learn and grow. And Ithink that we can all learn
something from that. That's agreat approach. I want to shift
(24:01):
gears and maybe talk a littlebit about foresight. That's one
of the things that it's adiscipline that's become more
and more important today, Ithink, because it's such an
unpredictable environment and soLori and Debra, how has
practicing foresight impactedyour approach to leadership,
especially during moments ofuncertainty?
Lori Anderson (24:23):
We've developed at ISA a leadership meeting,
which involves a board and threeother elected steering
committees. We call them, and wehave an annual event in a
January of every year that isn'tabout the current year. And I
did that as purpose, because thebudget's already set, the
(24:45):
organizational plan, all of thatset for that calendar year. Now
we're meeting in January to dowhat to talk about, what next,
not even the next year, but eventwo or three years from now. And
sometimes there's themes to thismeeting, this event, which
started, oh, back in 2013 Iguess, was the first one we did.
(25:08):
It was just the hints being saidabout struggles finding workers
that led to developing an entireworkforce development program.
And each of these events startsto germinate some thoughts on
what are the next challengesthat could be coming down the
pike. We have used ASAEforesight works in this
(25:29):
exercise. We have sometimesfocused on particular themes. We
bring in some keynote speakersthat can help facilitate the
long term. But I think it's themindset that the meeting is not
about the here and now. It's allabout the future. We're in the
next one in January of 25 we'retalking about demographics, or
(25:52):
maybe the importance of addingvalue graphics instead of
demographics. And we're lookingat trying to understand the
values that are inherent in ourstakeholders. We don't know what
that's going to end up, but thatwill be long term. Like, what
does that mean for 26, 27 and29 and beyond? And that's how
(26:13):
we've employed foresight. How itchanges my leadership again, I
think it's back to the samething we've talked about. It's
those little, teeny things,listening for the nuances and
what I can do to challengemyself and to challenge the
organization.
KiKi L'Italien (26:27):
So for people who and Debra, I'm going to go
to you next. For people who arelistening to this and not
watching it, you should justknow that I was back here like
clapping visibly. You can't hearit, but you could see it because
I was so excited about hearingabout the value graphics.
There's some really great workout there by David Allison. He's
(26:47):
the one that coming to ourevent. Yeah, he's remarkable.
You want to follow up on that?Pick up that thread and Debra,
let's talk about it. What is theroll of foresight for you?
Debra BenAvram (26:58):
I'll pick up from where Lori left off. She
gave some really great and I'lladd from a leadership
perspective, and one thing Ithink is really important is to
remember that it is not your jobto have all of the foresight. It
is not your role. It is yourrole to make sure that the
(27:19):
organization and the rightpeople are having that
conversation, and that can bevery hard as we continue on our
leadership journeys, to rememberthat our superpower isn't
knowing how to do everything orabout everything, it's knowing
how to create the environmentswhere the right things end up
happening, and making sure thatthat's also the expectation of
(27:45):
you for whoever it is that youreport to that you're having
that conversation. What are theexpectations that might be for
you with foresight, if you havedeep subject matter expertise,
that's going to be differentthan if you don't, but that
conversation is reallyimportant. And then how you're
leveraging your board. What'sthe board culture? Some boards
(28:07):
don't love to have really bigpicture, pie in the sky
conversations, and then yourrole in that leadership
development journey for them isvery different than if you are
working with a board that hasbeen doing that for a long time.
For me, a tactic that I alwaysemploy, no matter what role I'm
in, is sort of setting someNorth Stars like, what are the
(28:30):
things that are for me reallyalways going to be true,
transparency, risk taking,possibilities, growth mindset,
when I can bring those into theforesight conversation as a
leader, those are my tools. Iuse those tools to hopefully
open possibilities up forothers. So an example for me
(28:50):
would be as AABB explored thenew frontier of bio therapies,
which we're really positioningAABB in the same thread from
lorries of workforcedevelopment, we were able to
problem spot what's a problem inthe industry that's no one's
going to have solved in threeyears, when we would come out
(29:10):
with a solution, and we ended updelivering the first in field
credential. We stood up anentire credentialing program and
delivered that, but we wouldn'thave done that if we weren't
talking about what's coming downthe pike. We have to be able to
see around corners, and that's askill set that we don't all
(29:31):
have, and that our teams, ourstaff and our leaders don't
always have. So focusing on howwe develop that create
environments for people to learnthose skills and ASAE foresight
works is a really fantastictool.
KiKi L'Italien (29:45):
Speaking of looking around corners and all
of that, what I'm hearing isthat you both have expressed
that being adaptable, I'mparaphrasing, but being
adaptable, being flexible. Sorecognizing where your resources
are that may not originate withyou, that you don't have to have
(30:06):
all of the answers yourself, butto look around for those
opportunities or those insightsthat you can take to help guide
and lead and maybe open up thoseconversations that will help to
get the organization into thedirection it needs to go in. We
can't have a conversation aboutwomen and leadership without
(30:28):
addressing this Glass Cliffphenomenon. And for those who
aren't familiar with that, manywomen find themselves promoted
to these high stakes rolesduring times of crisis, and this
is called the Glass Cliffphenomenon, where it's like, oh,
you're thrust into this positionof authority, and now you need
(30:48):
to solve all of these problems.And for many women, when they
find themselves in this role,it's shocking. I don't know
anyone who is just thank you forgiving me this chance to feel
like I'm in a precarioussituation. Have either of you
felt this or faced thischallenge?
Lori Anderson (31:04):
I was by my first boss in the association world,
who I admire greatly, and he wasthe first person I invited to
come to the awards ceremony.He's long retired and doesn't
live around here anymore, but hemeant so much to me because he
really supported me. He alsowelcomed my inquiries into how
(31:26):
to improve myself. For example,it was a light bulb moment when
I was told we need aninternational program Lori,
create one. I'm simplifying it.And this is a pretty big
industry. What? But I realizedthat I didn't need to have the
(31:47):
answers. But if I could help acommittee succeed, then all of a
sudden, everything grows. And soI asked my boss, I went, I would
like to take meetingfacilitation training, and
here's a course, can you send meup to Boston for a week? And he
said, Yes. And from that moment,it was like this sliding door
(32:09):
moment, because I wasstruggling. I didn't know how to
keep things going, I didn't knowwhat to do, and I gained skills
into learning that it wasn't mewho needs the answers, but I
could learn how to ask the rightquestions to get a group to
figure it out, and all of asudden, the groups I was now
(32:30):
assigned more and more groups tolead, that they were succeeding,
and that not only helped theorganization succeed, it helped
My career succeed. And I stillemploy that same philosophy to
where I am. Now it's I don'thave the answers, but if I can
help in any way to ask the rightquestions to get to an answer,
(32:52):
then we're all in a betterplace.
KiKi L'Italien (32:55):
That's so interesting. Something you said,
it made me think about an issuethat I just came across with the
organization that I work with,and that is that I think that
something that you did there,not only did you recognize that
you didn't need to have all theanswers yourself and that you
could explore, but a committeecould help, but you also sought
(33:17):
training. You looked fortraining, and you proactively
went out and said, Ah, here isthe training I could use. And
then you went about figuring outif you could get it. And it's
fascinating, because theorganization I work with just
recently, the CEO came up andsaid, we have this budget for
(33:38):
training, but no one's askingfor additional training like
they people weren't coming,proactively going and saying, we
need this. And I think it'sreally interesting that here you
have listeners, here you havesomeone who is an award winning
leader, who is saying, Irealized that I needed this
(33:58):
additional training, and youweren't afraid, she wasn't
afraid to go after it. So that'ssomething that I thought was
interesting, that you sharedthere, that I think is a
differentiator, maybe for somepeople who been asked to do this
thing, and I don't know how todo it, it's maybe looking
around, yeah, to see what'saround you. But also, what do I
(34:19):
need to learn? What do I need todo?
Lori Anderson (34:21):
And I still do this, KiKi. In 2023 I was
stuck. I didn't know how to getout of my rut. I sought an
executive coach, and I soughtone that could basically slap me
a little bit get me out of myrut, not somebody who is warm
and fuzzy, but somebody whocould really push my comfort
zones. And I've used coachesthroughout my career in various
(34:43):
parts of my career, and I justneeded one. So yes, back way
ages ago, I sought out help inlearning how to be a better
meeting facilitator, but I stilldo that to this day.
KiKi L'Italien (34:56):
Oh, good. That's so good. How about you, Debra?
Have you worked with coaches?Have you gone out and gone after
those additional trainingmoments?
Debra BenAvram (35:05):
Absolutely, I've worked with coaches for a long
time, and knowing what you wantout of that relationship, and
Lori said she want to kick inthe pants, so that's going to
help you find the right coachfor me as well. Training for me,
one of the things more recentlythat I've been working on is
getting exposure to the businessworld outside of association. So
(35:30):
I joined an organization calledYPO, which is a young
professional organization, CEOs,global CEO organization, very
few non profits andassociations. That's giving me a
completely different opportunityto develop new skills and
exposure to new types ofbusinesses, because we all know
associations are businesses.It's our tax status that we
(35:51):
benefit from, but the end of theday, the numbers do have to add
up. So I knew that was exposurethat I need, because I know the
association space. Where do Itake it next in this very fast
changing world? I think whenwe're put into a new
opportunity, there's a crisishappening, and we feel this
(36:11):
weight as leaders, that someonehas trusted us, an organization
has trusted us, our boss hastrusted us to solve the problem
or to find the solution, and wefall into this trap. And I think
a lot of female leadersdefinitely fall into this trap
of thinking that being thechampion for the solution means
(36:36):
being alone and being the onlyone who can do and to both
strategically think and do andbe the answer. And sometimes we
put that on ourselves. Sometimesit's put upon us, to be honest,
but sometimes we put that onourselves. When I think about
those moments when I've askedsomeone in a crisis to take
(36:57):
something on, and when it's beena part of my own experience, I'm
thinking about buildingtransparency, which I share is
one of my North Stars oftransparency and being clear on
communication along the way,celebrating small wins. Don't
wait until the end to find out.Like your one ends like glory.
Just shared how she was talkingalong the way. Can I do this?
(37:19):
Can I you're sharing yourthought pattern, so your
leadership, your excellence,what you bring, don't wait till
the end, the end and outcome ofthe New International Strategy,
which was what you were asked todo in the example you gave Lori,
make sure that you're exposingwhoever you're talking to with
(37:40):
your thinking, How do you think?How are you showing that you're
expanding? What are thequestions you're asking to look
outside the particular area ofyour portfolio, to connect the
dots to other areas of thebusiness and to other aspects of
how the business connects to thebroader world around you. When
you give people the opportunityto see have a window into your
(38:04):
brain that lets them engage,that brings intellectual
curiosity from them, and you'rehaving conversations along the
way. Something I'm not strong inis making sure to celebrate
strong wins. I know about myselfI'm like, three years from now
already, I'm excited about thewin, but my brain's moved on, so
making sure that I'mcommunicating those small wins,
(38:25):
and making sure that you'readjusting your plans, your
experience based on your newknowledge, the skills you're
developing, but also thefeedback that you're getting. In
other words, don't put it onyourself to be alone. Let
somebody tell you're alone, butuntil they tell you're alone,
figure out how to engage otherscommunicate really effectively
(38:49):
and share what you need toshare, to highlight what you're
doing, and highlight where youneed others to plug in.
KiKi L'Italien (38:57):
Wow. This is like a master class in
leadership, because Debra, thatis a growing edge for me that I
have to work on. Thiscelebrating the wins, but
showing that thinking along theway so other people can learn,
celebrate, understand andbelieve in and be part of your
parade, versus like watchingfrom the side and It being some
(39:20):
big mystery, this window intoyour brain approach so important
to be able to communicate likethat, so that other people can
buy in along the way. And Ithink that's such a great point.
I think of it is showing yourwork. I was always getting in
trouble in school for notshowing my work. I had to, and
I'm like, oh, but they have towrite it out. And I think that's
(39:42):
something that, even to thisday, it's, yeah, show your work,
let other people in on it,because, hey, guess what? Maybe
they can contribute, or maybethey can join your parade and
get excited about the thingsthat you're doing. It's not
something to be fearful of,which I think is what holds me
back. Sometimes, some. Pickapart my ideas and all of this,
(40:02):
but it's something where it's anopportunity, right? And it's
only something that can helpbuild trust. So that's a great
point. I have one more question.I could really, honestly, I
think, talk to you both for along time, but I have one more
question that has to do withjust being a leader. It has its
own set of demands. I thinkwe've all decided a long time
(40:24):
ago that there is no balancewith life, right? You're just
always trying to figure out yourbest, but it's challenging when
you're trying to do all of thesethings beyond the career skills,
what areas of personal growthfor you have been essential to
your success and your resilienceas leaders. Are there other
areas of your life where it'snot just going out and getting
(40:45):
say that training andfacilitation or working with
committees or what have you, orlearning about what it's like to
be entrepreneurial and that kindof thing, but is there something
in your own personal growthoutside of those things,
directly impacting your skillsat work, that you look at, that
helps you, that you find, thatis essential to your success.
Lori Anderson (41:09):
It's a mindfulness journey for me. I
have gone to mindful retreats. Istarted meditating many years
ago. I'm grateful to say it'smany years ago now, and 2007 I
went through a cancer journey.So I'm a breast cancer survivor,
and what they don't tell youwhen you go through it is the
hardest part mentally, is afteryou go through all the
(41:31):
treatments, because then youimagine that every hangnail and
every thing is possibly anotherround of it, right? And in this
process, I discovered theimportance of mine. I read books
I had Tolle's "Power of Now,"and some other books by various
(41:51):
monks, etc, that more appreciatethe present moment and not
constantly imagine what's next,because what you imagine is that
it's imagination. It's not real,and that's a continuous process,
and that is a journey we are allon to various degree, and you
(42:15):
never complete it. You never winit. And being comfortable with
the moment at hand is maybe thebiggest challenge we could ever
face.
Debra BenAvram (42:25):
Beautiful. I wish I could tell you I had the
kind of mindfulness practicethat Lori has developed and that
I admire so much I I'm a littlebit more of a work in progress
that maybe I care to met, but Ithink that for me, over the
course of my career that I'veebbed and flowed and COVID
(42:47):
really helped me open my eyes tomaking good choices about how I
decide to spend my time and howI decide to spend my
discretionary time. And we couldgo to dinner with an ASAE
colleague every other night. Wecan go to everything we get
invited to, and we can, I can,I'll own the statement, then
(43:08):
really end up not getting muchout of any of those experiences.
So what I've tried to do in myown practice, in my own life, is
really be intentional about howI'm spending my time and how I
want to show up for myself andfor others. How does that
translate? It translates intoI've said no to some things, and
(43:30):
I've stepped back from somethings that maybe I gave to
maybe I did that had run theircourse, and I've stepped up into
other things that have reallybeen a bigger part of what I
want to do. So some of those aremaking sure to spend time or
travel with my son, who's aninternational athlete. So that's
(43:50):
one on one time when I can'talways work having that special
time. We have dinner as a familyevery night. That's hard to do,
I know, but that's what happensin the BenAvram house. Our son's
21. He's a college now, but westill do that with our daughter,
and then making choices aroundspirituality and around the
things that really, from avolunteer perspective, make a
(44:14):
difference. For me, my familysupports an orphanage in eastern
Uganda that helps girls whowould otherwise be on the street
and double down on that and afew other really important
issues that for me fill mybucket, even though their time,
that allow me to use the skillsI have built in my career as a
(44:38):
leader, but allow me to getsomething very different out of
that, and then bring that backto my family. So I'm still on
that journey, but I think I'mgetting much better at choosing
the things that from a timeperspective, I both give and
have a meaningful ROI inwhatever it is for me that I
(44:59):
decide that needs to be.
KiKi L'Italien (45:01):
It's beautiful. It's beautiful. I can't tell you
both how much I it was just sucha pleasure to speak with both of
you today, and I've learnedsomething, and I know that the
listeners are going to learnsomething too. So thank you both
for sharing your wisdom and yourinsights.
Debra BenAvram (45:20):
Thank you so much, KiKi and Lori, always a
pleasure. Thank you.
Lori Anderson (45:25):
I can't wait to share the stage with you in
March. It's so exciting. Andthank you, KiKi, for this
opportunity.
KiKi L'Italien (45:31):
So I just want to say to our listeners, thank
you for joining us. Be sure tosubscribe to the associations
now podcast on Apple, Spotify,or wherever you listen to your
favorite podcasts. For even moreassociation goodness, visit
associationsnow.com, ASAE, ofcourse. And then if my voice
(45:51):
didn't completely rattle yourcage, you might want to check
out my regular podcast, theAssociation Chat podcast, which
you can find over onassociationchat.com, until next
time everyone, stay true to yourvision, keep sharing your
stories and remember everyconversation offers a chance for
change you.
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