January 23, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode of Associations NOW Presents, guest host David Coriale of the Reboot IT podcast sits down with Mark Graham, vice president of Association Solutions at ASAE, and Paul Pomerantz, FACHE, FASAE, managing director of the Association Governance Institute (AGI) and former CEO of the American Society of Anesthesiologists. They discuss AGI’s mission to streamline resources, build a robust content library, and develop educational courses to elevate governance in associations. Topics include CEO-board relationships, executive transitions, board operations, strategic oversight, and governance structures. They also explore assessments for CEOs and boards, the pivotal role of organizational culture, and how technology and cybersecurity play into effective governance. The episode wraps with actionable advice for fostering a healthy governance culture and navigating the evolving needs of associations.
Check out the video podcast here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_0qljegbl4Associations NOW Presents is produced by Association Briefings.
Transcript
Dave Coriale 0:03 Hello everyone. I'm Dave Coriale, president of DelCor and host of another podcast, Reboot IT, where we talk about all things technology for the association and 501 C community. Today I am guest hosting this podcast, and I am very excited about our two guests. One of them is Mark Graham, who is the vice president of association solutions at ASAE, at the Center for Association Leadership. And the other is a leader I've been a fan of for a long time, Paul Pomerantz. He has been a CEO of several health and medical associations before this, and he is currently the managing director of the Association Governance Institute. Let's get going. Let's listen in on the conversation. I think there is plenty to gain from hearing what they have to say, and here we are having the conversation I've been looking forward to for weeks now, ever since this was scheduled. Paul, Mark, thank you for taking your time. I know you're both very busy to talk about something that's coming up and very important, the Association Governance Institute, that is one of the main topics. I'm sure we'll weave and bob through a couple others along the way. But like always, I like to start my podcast with what are we talking about? So let's talk a little bit about the Association Government Institute, what it is, etc. Mark, I think you'd be great to lead that part of the conversation. So why don't you give us a little bit of background and where we're headed here?
Mark Graham 1:23 Sure. So the Association Governance Institute, AGI, the brainchild of Michelle Mason, wanted to create a brand new home for governance, for associations. ASAE has done a pretty good job at governance, but we wanted to really focus on it and really have a terrific resource library. What we did was we always created, like a brand new organization. Why we called it the Association Governance Institute, although it will be part of your ASAE membership, and what it does, it creates a library of resources that are all focused on just governance. If you search as a website now, and you search governance, you'll get a whole host of content. But what we've done is we really drill down to a bunch of categories of governance, six categories of governance and three to five subcategories of governance, because governance is quite complicated. There's an art and science to it, and we hope to address both of that with the Association Governance Institute. So let me give you a few examples of the categories. The CEO-board relationship. We're talking about. The CEO evaluation, the compensation, the contracts we get into the culture of boards. One of the major responsibilities with board is to hire and manage the CEO. So we have a whole section on executive transitions, operation
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Dave Coriale (00:03):
Hello everyone. I'm Dave Coriale, president of
DelCor and host of anotherpodcast, Reboot IT, where we
talk about all things technologyfor the association and 501 C
community. Today I am guesthosting this podcast, and I am
very excited about our twoguests. One of them is Mark
Graham, who is the vicepresident of association
solutions at ASAE, at the Centerfor Association Leadership. And
(00:26):
the other is a leader I've beena fan of for a long time, Paul
Pomerantz. He has been a CEO ofseveral health and medical
associations before this, and heis currently the managing
director of the AssociationGovernance Institute. Let's get
going. Let's listen in on theconversation. I think there is
plenty to gain from hearing whatthey have to say, and here we
(00:48):
are having the conversation I'vebeen looking forward to for
weeks now, ever since this wasscheduled. Paul, Mark, thank you
for taking your time. I knowyou're both very busy to talk
about something that's coming upand very important, the
Association GovernanceInstitute, that is one of the
main topics. I'm sure we'llweave and bob through a couple
others along the way. But likealways, I like to start my
(01:09):
podcast with what are we talkingabout? So let's talk a little
bit about the AssociationGovernment Institute, what it
is, etc. Mark, I think you'd begreat to lead that part of the
conversation. So why don't yougive us a little bit of
background and where we'reheaded here?
Mark Graham (01:23):
Sure. So the Association Governance
Institute, AGI, the brainchildof Michelle Mason, wanted to
create a brand new home forgovernance, for associations.
ASAE has done a pretty good jobat governance, but we wanted to
really focus on it and reallyhave a terrific resource
library. What we did was wealways created, like a brand new
(01:43):
organization. Why we called itthe Association Governance
Institute, although it will bepart of your ASAE membership,
and what it does, it creates alibrary of resources that are
all focused on just governance.If you search as a website now,
and you search governance,you'll get a whole host of
content. But what we've done iswe really drill down to a bunch
of categories of governance, sixcategories of governance and
(02:06):
three to five subcategories ofgovernance, because governance
is quite complicated. There's anart and science to it, and we
hope to address both of thatwith the Association Governance
Institute. So let me give you afew examples of the categories.
The CEO-board relationship.We're talking about. The CEO
evaluation, the compensation,the contracts we get into the
culture of boards. One of themajor responsibilities with
(02:27):
board is to hire and manage theCEO. So we have a whole section
on executive transitions,operations. We're talking about
the soup and nuts of how boardsoperate. We have tons of content
and sub content on all thesetopics to round it out. We have
strategy and oversight andstructure, so we've really used
a lot of our advisory committeesof CEOs and consultants to help
(02:49):
us devise this whole newinstitute and how to organize
all the content. That's thecontent part of it. But we're
also including new tools withAGI and new educational courses.
Paul and I have always joked,this is like creating a brand
new organization. We startedlast January, and we're ready to
launch next month.
Paul Pomerantz (03:06):
Really exciting stuff. And just to add to this
part of the thinking behindthis, especially as this was
first being developed byMichelle and myself and some
conversations. The idea wastwofold. One, ASAE has a lot of
resources, but they're indifferent places, so the idea is
bring it together and reallyemphasize it, shine a spotlight
(03:28):
on it, and make it easier tofind, more accessible, and then
give it a place to grow. So wealready have a great set of tool
kits. But what's missing? Whatneeds to be developed? What
other tools can we develop? Sothis will provide that kind of
focal point for it. The otherthing is that you think about
the CEO job, and CEO issuccessful, if his governance is
(03:49):
successful, if the CEO and theboard are working in unison,
they're aligned, goals areclear, resources are being
allocated according to the goalsand the plan of the
organization, then you have ahealthy organization and it
functions. Things break downwhen governance doesn't work.
And so in our view, job one fora CEO is to make sure that
(04:13):
governing process works; thatthere's communication; there's
transparency; there's clarity.All those types of things. And
part of our goal is to reallysupport the CEO in carrying out
that part of their position, theCEO and the staff team in other
industries. corporate setting.You have the National
Association of CorporateDirectors in the healthcare
(04:36):
setting. You have othergovernance resources.
Associations do not have thatkind of focus, and we're
bringing that kind of focus toit.
Mark Graham (04:43):
Yeah. And as Paul says, this is a starting point.
In January, this thing willcontinue to evolve and grow with
the help of our advisorycommittees. Paul has been
instrumental, my partner incrime, if you will. He's a
bright star when it comes togovernance knowledge. So he's
helped guide this thing from thevery beginning.
Dave Coriale (05:01):
No better guide out there. So I do have a
question. You mentioned content.Two questions. One's about
content. You mentioned thatyou've gone through and you've
curated the content. So thissounds like it's new content,
and probably a mix of someexisting content. And so I want
to hear a little bit more aboutthat, as well as the assessments
that you mentioned. What type ofassessments would one find in
(05:22):
the AGI?
Mark Graham (05:23):
Sure. So the content is divided into a couple
of different categories. Youhave a lot of opinion and
articles thought leadership onbest practice and governance and
all those categories that I justmentioned. We also have how-tos,
checklists and case studies.These are all tools you can give
people to help them do better.In governance, I'll focus on
maybe one area (05:44):
executive transitions. There is a lot of
guidance. We've been talkingabout CEO succession for decades
and how to improve it. So we'vegone through and curated all the
best articles on CEO succession.We provide some checklists on
CEO succession. For instance,very sadly, sometimes there may
be an abrupt departure of a CEO.They may be terminated, they may
(06:05):
quit. Sadly, may even pass away.We have checklists of what you
should do, and each one of thoseinstances, executive transition
also involves a CEO contract. Sowe have whole sections on
contracts from the board'sperspective and the CEO's
perspective, what to look for,what to negotiate, what's
important, what you really focusin on? And of course, there is
compensation. We have lots oftools and compensation
(06:27):
philosophy. We even have a wholepractice built around helping
organizations determine theright compensation for their
CEO. So that's just one of thoseareas that we really drill down
and focus in on. The content. Sowe provide the opinions, the
articles, the how tos, thechecklists. We do this for every
single one of the categories.Like in financial management, we
have 20 questions a new boardmember should be asking about
(06:50):
the financial situation of anorganization. This is good for
someone who's maybe new togovernance and doesn't know what
they're doing. So it's a goodprimer. We could talk about all
the content, almost this entirepodcast, who does just so much
of it, governance. I went intothis knowing a little bit about
governance, and now I think I'malmost an expert, almost nearly
half as smart as Paul, becausethere's so much to governance,
(07:13):
the science of it, there's somuch to it. And where people
mainly get tripped up is the artof governance. And so we hope to
be taken care of the wholepackage.
Paul Pomerantz (07:22):
I couldn't agree more. And one of the great areas
of content that we're reallyproud of, and we go through
everything like Mark says: legal, roles and (07:28):
undefined
responsibilities, all thesethings. But one of the areas I'm
very proud of is the boardselection and development piece.
And this is the area where MarkEngel and some other folks have
been leaders in this area andhave really created publications
and tools. Well, all those aregoing to be curated into this
(07:50):
website. So the whole idea of,how do you evaluate board trends
and board needs? How do yourecruit for a board house is an
optimal leadership developmentprocess? How do you orient and
train and own board members? Howdo you evaluate their
performance? All those kinds ofreally rich tools that haven't
been easy to locate will be partof our resource center.
Dave Coriale (08:13):
And I think that's a critical piece. You just
pulled out the easy to locate,right? So the ease of use of
this resource center, andespecially if it's being
redesigned, or being designedfrom the ground up right now, as
opposed to taking something andtrying to fix it, always yields
a better user experience. Andspeaking of the users, who is
this targeted? Is it the CSO,the chief staff officer? Or is
it the board? Is it both? Who'sthe target of the resource for,
Mark Graham (08:34):
Really anyone involved in government. So
what are most of the resourcesfor?
Dave Coriale (08:36):
Yeah, it certainly makes sense. I know how to run
primarily, is going to be thechief executive and board
members, but increasingly,especially large organizations,
my business, but I've been on aboard, and the orientation was,
they'll likely have a chiefgovernance officer or someone
you know, "this is our cadenceof meeting. This is how we do
who's a significant portion oftheir time is dedicated towards
governance. These are for peoplewho aspire to the C-suite or
aspire to serve on a board thata lot of people just think
they're going to learn on thejob. And I can't stress enough
(08:57):
this process. This is who is thehead of this. This is who's the
that's the wrong way to do it.You don't want to start making
mistakes on the job. When itcomes to governance, you want to
go in fully educated on how thisstuff works and where the
landmines are. I've seen toomany CEOs, chief executives get
tripped up because they didn'tknow what they didn't know.
(09:26):
head of that." That's verydifferent than what I'm hearing
here in terms of giving the teamthe resources they need to
really ensure that thegovernance is quality, right?
The assessment piece, theonboarding piece, you're talking
about the content that I couldhave as a board member reviewed
to understand my role better andhow I contribute better. That's
(09:47):
what it sounds like. We'rebridging the gap between I'm on
a board to what's the mostsuccessful version of the board.
Paul Pomerantz (09:53):
One of the critical audiences we had in
mind, CEOs, board members. Butalso--so and Mark mentioned
this--that governanceprofessional, the chief
governance officer, director ofgovernance, sometimes manager
board operations. They havedifferent titles, and most of
(10:13):
them are that, like everyone Imet, is a supreme professional,
but they all come from differentbackgrounds. They all have
different experiences. And whenpeople are introduced to this
job, they may not have all thefoundational elements. We
developed a course that will beoffered asynchronously, called
Introduction to AssociationGovernance, and it was
(10:35):
originally for this group ofgovernance staff professionals
sometimes new to the job, justto give them a common framework
to operate from. But as we'vebegun to develop this course,
realize it's of interest to newCEOs. And also CEOs are telling
I'd like to share this with ourboard. In this course, the
(10:55):
station in this course, whichwill be ready in the coming
weeks, we'll have legalfundamentals, roles and
responsibilities of the board,board selection and development
and a function of a boardmeeting, what you need to do
before, during and after. So thetools, as you can see, are
really intended for everybodywho's part of the governance
(11:16):
process.
Mark Graham (11:17):
Yeah, offering a micro credential in that course
you can get certified ingovernance.
Dave Coriale (11:23):
That's awesome. You mentioned that course is
asynchronous, right? Are therein-person events also associated
with this resource?
Mark Graham (11:30):
With AGI, there is. Where ASAE has two exceptional
governance in-person coursesalready that have a long history
and a really great programs.Blend Teck program, CEO
Symposium, the one mark Engelruns Exceptional Boards. But we
have added another one calledthe Governance and Strategy
Forum within the McKinley Group,which is going to have its
(11:51):
inaugural meeting of April 29here in Washington, DC. It's a
two day in person event. It'sdesigned to build the strong
partnership between the CEO andthe elected leaders, typically
the, of course, the chair. Butthese are also open to incoming
chairs. These in person meetingswe hear time and time again are
(12:13):
terrific to build those bondswith the chief staff and those
elected leaders.
Dave Coriale (12:18):
That's awesome. There's a micro credential
associated with this in thein-person piece. I know that a
lot of work has gone into thatnew in person piece that you
just talked about, that'shappening in April, and I'm sure
that the participants will comeout with much more than they
thought they would when theywent into it. And I'm aware of
the symposium and other piecesthat you talked about, and
(12:38):
they've always had a great trackrecord. So before we wrap up on
AGI, one of the other thingsthat I remember hearing about
was some assessments. Earlier,you mentioned there are some
assessments too that are relatedto it. Who's the target audience
assessments, and what might oneexpect to put into it and get
out of it? If you couldelaborate on that a bit.
Mark Graham (12:57):
Certainly. At launch, we're going to have two
assessments, but we have moreplanned. But at launch, we're
gonna have two assessments. Oneis a CEO assessment the board
would use to evaluate the chiefexecutive, and the other is the
board self-assessment, where theboard would evaluate themselves
on maybe 11 areas to see howthey do, how they function, how
(13:19):
they work, and compare itagainst thousands of other
organizations who've taken thisassessment as well. So the CEO
assessment is very cool. It'sfour parts. It's a custom tool
there where you could enter inyour own performance evaluation
of your chief executive. Everyorganization is different. They
have their own KPI and goals.Well, there's certain things
(13:39):
that are just fundamental toevery organization. There is,
how will you do the job, theadministration of a CEO role.
There is the leadershipqualities, the personal
leadership qualities, yourinterpersonal skills, your
communication skills. And then,of course, we have
accomplishments and challengesthat are present for every
organization as well. So thistool is an online tool that
board members fill out at theend of this survey, they take on
(14:01):
the chief executive. They get areport, and also the CEO takes
this survey as well, so the CEOand the board can compare how
the CEO perceived themselves inthese areas compared to how the
board viewed the CEO in theseareas. And the other the board
self assessment tool focuses inon, I think it's 11. Sorry, we
are working on so much here atAGI sometimes it's hard to
(14:22):
remember the exact number anddetails of these parts. But if
focusing on how theorganizations, the culture, the
meetings, the policies,financial oversight, and how
well board members think they doin these areas, and again, then
we compare it to. No board isperfect. Some boards are great.
Some boards are okay. And sowhat we're going to get with
this report is we're going tosee how you stack up again.
(14:42):
Stack up against a bunch ofother organizations. So these
two tools were created, actuallya long time ago in partnership
with board source, but ASAE hasnow taken them in house, and now
they'll be part of AGI.
Dave Coriale (14:56):
Understood. And what's the time commitment on
the organization or theexecutives part on those types
of self assessments?
Mark Graham (15:02):
About 30 minutes, 30 minutes. It's a thing, where
you can jump in on your phone,fill out few things, come back.
But if you sat down, reallywanted to push for it, it's
about 30 minutes on each one.There is some administration for
the CEO assessment, because someof those questions are custom
assessment questions. But oncethose are done, the board member
can expect about 30 minutes.It's a good tool they can use
(15:23):
year after year and track theirprogress, board self assessment
and the CEO assessment, so theycan see where they're doing
better and where they still havesome work to do.
Paul Pomerantz (15:32):
It's a wonderful tool. I've seen it used. I've
used it on my own board, andI've worked with other boards.
And what it does is it providesthat opportunity for the board
to give itself feedback. This isa board self-assessment, and
boards could be their mostcritical evaluators. And so it's
one thing for a CEO that say,you guys could be doing better.
(15:53):
It's another one for the boarditself to look at this and say,
we could be doing better. And sowhen properly done and
facilitated, these instrumentsare incredible because the board
identifies not only itsstrengths but its weaknesses,
and gets to compare itself withits peers. And so that's really
eye opening for board members.The eyes light up. They get
(16:14):
excited, and they're engagedabout how do we move forward?
How do we become better? It's agreat tool for self improvement.
Mark Graham (16:21):
These tools are completely confidential. The
board members are not going toknow who answered to what
questions, so it really getssome honest feedback of the CEO
and of course, the board.
Dave Coriale (16:30):
Yeah, that's a really important point to make
in ways you want to ask also,one of the things we love to do
in this community is benchmarkourselves against others, right?
Will there be as you collectdata across time, even though
it's anonymous, will there bethe opportunity to see where
your ratings stand against otherorganizations?
Mark Graham (16:48):
Yeah. In fact, in every report, you will see every
single category, almost everysingle question, how you stack
up against all of your peers,because this poor self
assessment has been administeredfor gosh, I drew my math here,
16 years, we have an enormousamount of data, awesome to pull
from. The CEO assessment is nota benchmarking tool. And it
shouldn't be, for probablyreasons. But the board
(17:09):
self-assessment, you'll be ableto see how you do, yeah, and
year to year, if you do thereport every year, every couple
years, you can just go back tothe little report and see how
you did.
Dave Coriale (17:18):
So speaking of how you do, is one of the key
aspects of this. How are wedoing as a board? How are we
doing as a chief staff officer?Paul, you started this thread.
You started this conversationaround the CEO is successful, or
the chief staff officer issuccessful when governance is
solid, paraphrasing a little bitthere. But you're saying
governance a good place. CEO hasmuch more likely chance of
success. And I know you alsomentioned earlier, culture
(17:42):
playing a role in that, andthat's something that I feel
like you've focused on. You'vewritten some articles about it,
you've talked about it. I'veheard you talk about culture,
fair assessment, fair statement.That's important as far as
success goes beyond just theoperational aspect.
Paul Pomerantz (17:56):
Yeah, I would say it's probably the most
important aspect and the leastwell defined.
Dave Coriale (18:01):
I was going to ask you to start by defining what
when you talk about culture, howdo you define it?
Paul Pomerantz (18:06):
Greatly, it's like that famous quote by
Justice Potter Stewart. I noticewhen I'll know it when I see it.
He was describing pornography inthose days. So probably not a
great analogy, but culture,we're going to end up with an
explicit rating, exactly, youknow, and your kids listening to
this. But no, all kidding aside,the culture really refers to
(18:28):
what groups value, what theybelieve in, and how they behave
towards each other and toothers, and it really reflects
The norms of behavior. Andwhat's interesting is that
culture is not defined by whatpeople say they are. So one of
the big misinterpretations outthere is, well, the board
(18:50):
values, right, or theorganization values they
represent your culture. They maynot, because the culture is
really how you live, how youbehave, people. And I'll say
Mark Engel again, he has assuredwith me, and I truly believe it,
that there are three pillars togovernance, strategy, structure
and culture. And the if youthink about it, strategy is your
(19:14):
direction, structure is thehardware, right? How's the board
organized? How many boardmembers are there? How's it
staff, all those kinds ofthings. But culture is the
software. It's really how itworks. It's the operating system
that really makes the boardoperate. And the literature is
full of examples of when culturedoesn't work properly. They go
(19:36):
back in the last couple years,we've had issues on the media
with the National Association ofRealtors, where culture broke
down, the organization was blindto activities that took place
within the organization that wasvery costly for a reputation of
the National Association ofRealtors, certainly in the
corporate sector and the forprofit industry, many examples
(19:59):
and we can point to. To reallythe very high profile experience
with Enron, going back to theturn of the century, where, you
know, that led to really thedownfall of that company,
because the board was not payingattention to things it should
have, and accounting was hidden.It was falsified. And really
resulted not only in thedownfall of that company, but
(20:21):
new laws and regulations such asthe Sarbanes-Oxley Act that
really required a high degree oftransparency, and we can go
through examples in this articleI wrote for more brief, there
are many examples where it'sjust very costly, where, when
the culture breaks down, itcould be extremely costly for
(20:41):
the organization. Interestingly,people would say, what's a an
example of the good cultures ofpeople getting along? Is it
people being very civil witheach other? And I'd say, no,
it's really the reverse. It'swhere boards are inquisitive,
where there's healthydisagreement, where there's
healthy curiosity, there'srobust discussion of issues
(21:03):
where people are heldaccountable. There's
accountability of the staff.There's accountability to each
other, and the board is engagedin a very rigorous process of
self evaluation, evaluation ofthe organization and
accountability. They're askingthe tough questions about their
industry. They're asking thetough questions about the
(21:23):
organization and how wellthey're doing. They're asking
tough questions about theircompetitors in the competitive
environment that they're in. Ithink we sometimes falsely seek
in our organizations a degree ofcamaraderie that may not
necessarily be healthy. And oneof the things we talk about in
the article is that associationboards are especially vulnerable
(21:46):
to this false sense of harmony.And the reason is, in
associations, you got peoplefrom the same profession or same
industry, and we're less likelyto be critical to call each
other to account, because I'mgoing to rely on you. Let's say
you're in my profession to helpme to advance further. I want
you to like me. I don't want tocall you out, because then
(22:06):
you'll call me out. But in thecontrary, that false harmony can
be very detrimental to theorganization. So I hope that
makes sense, and what we talkabout in the article is, how do
you evaluate your culture, andthen what are some of the tools
and resources that are availableto help check in and improve
that culture? It's not all thathard. It's really just asking
(22:27):
the right questions. The boardself-assessment is clearly a
tool you can use the CEOselection and evaluation. That's
a very critical resource youwant to make sure that the CEO
has been somebody who has hadexperience building a culture,
building a partnership with theboard, sets the model for a
healthy culture. In anorganization, you want to
(22:50):
recruit board members who havesimilar types of experiences
that are good at this. Theyunderstand what they're trying
to do. Look at the board agendasover time. That's another tool
as well. Boards with a healthyculture will spend more time on
strategic items and generativeitems. They're going to spend
more time exercising theircuriosity and asking tough
(23:12):
questions. Boards that have aweaker culture are going to
spend their time on operationalissues and micromanagement. Why?
Because it's easy way of gettingout of the tough issues. You
really want the board focused onthe tough issues. Another thing
that many boards are doing isthey're bringing on public
members and other perspectivesto create a diverse, diverse
(23:34):
points of view. So if you have aboard that's we're all from the
same industry, we're all used totalking to each other, bring in
different perspectives, bring ina member of the public, bring in
a customer of members, either asa member of the board or on an
infrequent basis, to helpchallenge the board and then
lean into the bad news. What Ifound is boards tend to avoid
(23:56):
the bad news until it's toolate. What you want to do is, if
you had a bad recordfinancially. You want to talk
about that. What does that mean?The industry is facing some
tough times. What are you goingto do, and how are you going to
address that? That you've had astaff engagement survey, there
are some signs of stress amongthe staff. How do you present
that to the board and talk aboutthat? But leaning into the bad
(24:18):
news, having those frankconversations is very much part
Dave Coriale (24:21):
So there's a lot in there, right? I'm trying to
of that.
listen and parse all the waythrough that, and it all made
sense. You asked in the quite inthe middle of that, you said,
that does that? If this makessense, it all made very good
sense. Culture eats strategy forbreakfast, right? So culture is
one of those things that youhave to have your eye and it's
also always known to be one ofthose things that it's really
(24:42):
hard to change. You can'texecute a new culture like you
use the word. You have to buildit. You have to push towards it.
And you tied that to the valuesof the organization. And when
there's misalignment betweenvalues and action, is what it
sounded like to me, fairassessment, that we have values,
that there. The website we'redone with that. Let's move on.
(25:03):
That's a critical piece that canfall apart when you're not
paying attention to it.
Paul Pomerantz (25:07):
Exactly. I've seen too many boards say and
come up with values that don'treally reflect who they are. So
our value is customer service.Our value is civility. Now you
really got to break down, whatdo you really mean and what do
you truly live? And I'm going tomodify your quote there, culture
eats strategy. I'm gonna sayculture eats CEOs. What happens
(25:30):
is, if a CEO knows how to manageculture, understands culture
knows what to look for, they'regonna do well. But what I see
too often is that CEOs willenter organizations not really
familiar with the culture thatthey're walking into, not sure
how to measure it, not sure oftheir compatibility with the
culture, and try to redefinestrategy or their role or change
(25:56):
culture without really knowinghow to do it. And we see those
stories all the time, and havinga cultural competency is really
important for a successful CEO,particularly as it comes to
working with governance.
Mark Graham (26:08):
Well, we'll add though, culture can sometimes be
the third rail in organizationmanagement, because a CEO goes
in there, they can see theculture is not well, but to
change it, they may have totackle their own board of
directors. I've seen manyassociations CEOs going, Nope,
it's just not worth it. I'mgoing to just go with the status
quo. And sadly, that's reallyone of the reasons why we want
(26:28):
AGI to be successful. We believein excellent governance. We want
to give people the tools tomaybe tackle that third rail,
even though it's a littleintimidating. But if culture's
eating things again, yeah, Ithink it is eating CEOs and
strategy, probably a few otherthings.
Dave Coriale (26:43):
It's such a big word, and so I'm wondering if
there is an assessment. Yeah, Ithink you mentioned there is an
assessment. Are there ways toassess culture as a new CEO
walking in? Because one of theways we define it is how work
gets done. Right here at Delco,we say culture is how our work
gets done, and we're not talkingabout the process that we go
through. We're talking aboutwhat you talked about, Paul, in
terms of whether or not wecommunicate with each other
(27:04):
frankly and honestly, or if wejust want to get along for the
moment, whether or not wechallenge each other. That helps
us define what we mean byculture. But in the AGI content
and assessments, how does theCEO get help assessing their
culture?
Mark Graham (27:19):
I think when Paul and I first adopted the board
self assessment and took a lookat it, we made some minor tweaks
to it, to update it, modernizeit for 2024. But he and I saw a
huge opportunity to reallyupgrade this. So we're already
in the planning stages ofversion 2.0 of the board
assessment, and really drillingdown on culture, because we both
believe it's very important,because this is a benchmarking
tool, you need to make thesechanges like once or twice. You
(27:41):
can't just make iterativechanges to a benchmarking tool.
So we made very small changes toit for this first version, but
this next version that Bucha andI were working on in 2025 we
hope to really drill down onculture. I'm not sure if it's
going to help CEOs going into anorganization, unless executive
(28:04):
recruiters require boards totake this self assessment before
entering into a search phase.But at least when they're in
there, the board, the CEO andeveryone who reads this report
might know where they're weakand where this improvement to be
had
Paul Pomerantz (28:17):
And I'll add to that that the courses that ASAE
offers at CEO Symposium,Exceptional Boards. These offer
opportunities to talk aboutculture. I think there's good
content in there that GlennTecher and Mark Engel and others
offer that allow for that frankdiscussion about things. The
other thing I'll say is that ifyou come in as a new CEO and you
(28:40):
say, All right, I'm going toaddress this culture, and I'm
going to have that changed insix months. That's not how it
works, a slow process. You workby example. You work
iteratively. Your organizationwill live by the example you
set. By your example oftransparency. By your example of
collaboration, your example ofhow you raise issues and discuss
issues, you'll begin to shapethe culture that you want to
(29:03):
achieve. I think that theorganization I came from, the
American Society ofAnesthesiologists, we had a very
cumbersome structure. It wasnothing that anybody would say
that they would want as agoverning structure, House of
Delegates, large board. We had aeven a third tier, because with
the board was so large, calledour administrative council. But
(29:24):
what worked was the culture. Wereally emphasized having those
discussions. We emphasizeaccountability, we emphasize
transparency, we lean in thecontroversial items, and the
members really appreciated itand were able to get things
done. And I think that's how youdo it. You set the example you
build trust, one board at atime, one president at a time,
(29:44):
and you'll get to where you wantto get to.
Mark Graham (29:46):
Paul is talking about building this culture. AGI
is going to give people tools tohave room to build that culture.
Paul led a webinar that will beon AGI called we love this
title. Everyone hates your boardmeeting and. One of the tidbits
in there from one of theparticipants was they give video
presentations of the reportsfrom the organization in advance
(30:07):
to the board meeting, and theycan watch it beforehand, and
they can answer questions aboutit at the board meeting, but the
CFO is not going to the boardmeeting and giving a financial
report eating up valuable time.It's a valuable report. I don't
want to take away from that, butif you're giving more time in
the board meeting time, byhaving that information
presented at events, we'regiving you more time for the
strategic discussions that youneed to have, the long term
(30:30):
discussions changing the cultureof the industry and
organization. So practical tipscan be found inside AGI to be
that room.
Dave Coriale (30:38):
Doing this work of challenging each other and
having these conversations likeyou're describing without being
a jerk. That's really thesuccess of the culture you need
to build, which is challengingeach other, being candid,
leaning in, like you said, tothe problems, but everyone needs
to be civil and in ourenvironment, in our association,
501c culture, as a community. Itis we're generally nice people,
(31:00):
right? So it challenges us to bechallenging to each other, but
fortunately, we're mostly nicepeople who can do it in a way
where it's not going to turninto something that's
acrimonious among theparticipants. So hopefully
that's the outcome. But cultureis not a new word, certainly. Is
this a trend, though? Are CEOspaying more attention to culture
than they did 15 years ago. Doyou feel like I think so?
Paul Pomerantz (31:24):
What I'm seeing is more attention to that and
really trying to understand thework that's getting done. That's
a discipline generally withinthe business world. In general,
you go into a lot oforganizations now, bigger ones,
they have corporateanthropologists and business
schools are teaching businessanthropology, and I think to
some degree, all that is headinginto the association world as
(31:47):
well. Some of the consultantsthat I'm familiar with have
really begun to pay attention toculture, and a lot of the people
that Mark and I are working witha CEO Advisory Committee really
are attuned to the culture inthe organization. And like you
say, how work gets stuck.
Mark Graham (32:03):
Search teams are created tuned to this as well,
and when they place the chiefexecutive, it's in their best
interest to have a long,fruitful, happy relationship. So
they don't want to put someoneinto a mismatch. So they're
doing assessments and doing theevaluations on the board and the
CEO to find out a bettermarriage.
Paul Pomerantz (32:20):
Yeah. Well, what I would say is that CEOs who may
succeed on business measures,and they may succeed on culture
measures, they'll get fired forfailing on culture business,
they'll be more forgiven. AndI've seen this time and time
again, where you see anorganization with stronger
(32:40):
results, but you have a culturalmismatch, and it just doesn't
work. I would say that this isthe most critical of skills for
effective governance.
Dave Coriale (32:49):
I want to hit on one more topic before we wrap
up, and that is, and Paul, youwere nice enough earlier to
bring me into the conversationby talking about the hardware
and software, because I'm a techperson, right? That's what we do
here at Delcor. Word technologyalignment with mission, vision
and business objectives. And oneof the things that I've seen in
governance is a struggle betweenthe staff and the boards as it
(33:14):
relates to the technologyintegrating with the strategy.
I've said this a million times,that 10 years ago, we as
technologists were order takers.Tell us what you want. We'll
build it or buy it or buy it foryou. Good luck. Now there's an
opportunity for true strategicparticipation and saying, "Tell
us your vision, tell us yourobjectives. Let us help you with
the fidelity around the edges ofthat because we might know
things you don't in setting thatstrategy or setting that
(33:36):
objective." We might knowcapabilities that the
organization could have. What doyou feel like the role of the
board and the governance body isas it relates to technology
within a well functioningorganization?
Paul Pomerantz (33:49):
I don't think it's ever been more critical.
And it's funny what you say. Igo back to when I first started
in the industry, and that was inthe last century, back those of
the 19th century, roughly, andit was exactly what you say, but
somebody else does that. It's alower level task. Now it's it's
not only a C-suite function, butthe CEO is really expected to be
(34:09):
conversant in the strategy andissues surrounding technology.
And I think it comes down to acouple areas. One is assuring a
seamless and excellentexperience for the
organization's constituents,whether it be its members,
external stakeholders, whoeverit is, the board has an interest
in making sure that theorganization is engaging
(34:33):
accessible, that the experienceof people who interface with the
organization And the wholeinterface is technologically
based, is a good one, and thatwe're getting information and
we're learning from each personwho comes in boards. Want to
make sure that that experienceis there, and that they're
gleaning the information thatcomes from that. The second
(34:53):
area, I think, deals withemerging technology, and
particularly around AI. That hasbecome a strategic item for
virtually every board I talk tohow is AI going to be used? How
are we managing the risks of AIas well as the upside of AI? Do
we have an AI strategy? How isit going to help us
competitively, and how are ourcompetitors using it? How are we
(35:16):
using it and really lookingthrough the future? How are we
understanding its capabilitiesand moving forward. And the
third area, I would say, wouldbe in the risk management. The
whole area around cyber crime.Cyber Risk is keeping every
board I know up at night. Now,the larger the organization, the
more pearls the risk, the morechance for the organization to
(35:40):
be hacked for information to getout there, and then the deal
with that. And so boards want tomake sure that there's a good
strategy towards dealing withthe cyber crime, cyber risk, and
that the CEO and this team arereally on top of that, including
that not only staff need to bewell trained in dealing with
cyber risk, but the boarditself, and really all the
(36:03):
commitments anybody interactingwith the organization needs to
be cognizant of the riskfactors. So those are three that
come right to mind. Mark, I mayhave missed some items there.
Mark Graham (36:13):
Again Paul, perfect. I have nothing to add.
Dave Coriale (36:15):
Then I will ask you both to add one thing as we
close out. First of all, Iappreciate you spending the time
and explaining this. This theAGI, sounds like an awesome new
resource for the community. Iwould like to know what advice
you would give an associationleader that is looking to build
that healthy culture and boardrelationship in 2025. What do
(36:36):
you both have to say? We'llstart with you, Mark.
Mark Graham (36:38):
I think it really comes down to spending time
together and building thatpersonal relationship, because
that's where you're going tobuild, the trust, where you can
be candid with each other. Paulspoke earlier, delivering bad
news is much easier when youhave a strong personal
relationship with someone. Forme, my recommendation for any
chief executive with their boardis spend more time with them.
Paul Pomerantz (37:00):
I thoroughly agree with that. And the other
thing I'd say is, it's nosecret, we're in a tough time.
The world has been turned on itshead. We're trying to understand
this world that we're in, and Ithink having frank discussions
with the board that talk about,what are the risks now to our
organization, our professionalindustry, and what are the
opportunities? And one of thetools that we talk about, it's
(37:22):
in a lot of materials that theAGI has, is and it's and will be
discussed in the issue of boardbrief that'll be coming out soon
is the use of generativediscussions at the board level.
In other words, having adiscussion at the board that's
not about finding answers, butit's about understanding and
just as a board discussing, whatdo you see as the new risk? What
(37:45):
do you see as new challenges toyou? What's your experience in
your profession and yourbusiness, and how's it changing
now? And what are some of thethings that our association
needs to be paying attention to?So it's really trying not to try
to avoid the controversy, but aswe said before, lean into it a
bit. Don't create argument, buttry to understand it. How are
(38:07):
different members of yourorganization, different
generations, different ownershipmodels, how are they
experiencing the changes we'reseeing taking place, and how do
we best navigate it as anorganization?
Dave Coriale (38:19):
I love that piece in there, you said, try to
understand it. It's a humannature. It's a common thing,
especially when you're pressedfor time, or don't have the
relationship that you talkedabout, Mark to start assessing
blame, as opposed to trying toassess and understand. So I
think that's a super elegant wayto put just try to understand it
before you start solving it.Especially, and if I may be so
(38:40):
bold, to offer my one piece ofadvice to this CEO and to the
board, et cetera. It issomething that you touched on a
second ago, which is, don't cutspending on cybersecurity. We
work with a lot of IT leaders,and It shocks me the number of
organizations that the head ofit is putting in the budget some
type of cybersecurity, whetherit's a tool to further protect,
(39:01):
or it's education which is alsogoing to protect, and they come
back, and that's been what'scut. Yes, build a mindset of
cybersecurity first in yourorganization. So again, thank
you. I look forward to seeingyou both in 3d in real life some
point soon, but I appreciatevery much the time we spent
together here.
Paul Pomerantz (39:20):
Thank you, David. This was fun. Yeah, lot
of fun. Thanks, David.
Dave Coriale (39:23):
Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of
Associations NOW Presents. Joinus each month as we explore key
topics relevant to associationprofessionals discuss the
challenges and opportunities inthe field today and highlight
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(39:45):
podcasts. And for moreinformation on this topic, visit
Associations NOW online atassociationsnow.com. Thank you.
Hello everyone. I'm Dave Coriale, president of
DelCor and host of anotherpodcast, Reboot IT, where we
talk about all things technologyfor the association and 501 C
community. Today I am guesthosting this podcast, and I am
very excited about our twoguests. One of them is Mark
Graham, who is the vicepresident of association
solutions at ASAE, at the Centerfor Association Leadership. And
(00:26):
the other is a leader I've beena fan of for a long time, Paul
Pomerantz. He has been a CEO ofseveral health and medical
associations before this, and heis currently the managing
director of the AssociationGovernance Institute. Let's get
going. Let's listen in on theconversation. I think there is
plenty to gain from hearing whatthey have to say, and here we
(00:48):
are having the conversation I'vebeen looking forward to for
weeks now, ever since this wasscheduled. Paul, Mark, thank you
for taking your time. I knowyou're both very busy to talk
about something that's coming upand very important, the
Association GovernanceInstitute, that is one of the
main topics. I'm sure we'llweave and bob through a couple
others along the way. But likealways, I like to start my
(01:09):
podcast with what are we talkingabout? So let's talk a little
bit about the AssociationGovernment Institute, what it
is, etc. Mark, I think you'd begreat to lead that part of the
conversation. So why don't yougive us a little bit of
background and where we'reheaded here?
Mark Graham (01:23):
Sure. So the Association Governance
Institute, AGI, the brainchildof Michelle Mason, wanted to
create a brand new home forgovernance, for associations.
ASAE has done a pretty good jobat governance, but we wanted to
really focus on it and reallyhave a terrific resource
library. What we did was wealways created, like a brand new
(01:43):
organization. Why we called itthe Association Governance
Institute, although it will bepart of your ASAE membership,
and what it does, it creates alibrary of resources that are
all focused on just governance.If you search as a website now,
and you search governance,you'll get a whole host of
content. But what we've done iswe really drill down to a bunch
of categories of governance, sixcategories of governance and
(02:06):
three to five subcategories ofgovernance, because governance
is quite complicated. There's anart and science to it, and we
hope to address both of thatwith the Association Governance
Institute. So let me give you afew examples of the categories.
The CEO-board relationship.We're talking about. The CEO
evaluation, the compensation,the contracts we get into the
culture of boards. One of themajor responsibilities with
(02:27):
board is to hire and manage theCEO. So we have a whole section
on executive transitions,operations. We're talking about
the soup and nuts of how boardsoperate. We have tons of content
and sub content on all thesetopics to round it out. We have
strategy and oversight andstructure, so we've really used
a lot of our advisory committeesof CEOs and consultants to help
(02:49):
us devise this whole newinstitute and how to organize
all the content. That's thecontent part of it. But we're
also including new tools withAGI and new educational courses.
Paul and I have always joked,this is like creating a brand
new organization. We startedlast January, and we're ready to
launch next month.
Paul Pomerantz (03:06):
Really exciting stuff. And just to add to this
part of the thinking behindthis, especially as this was
first being developed byMichelle and myself and some
conversations. The idea wastwofold. One, ASAE has a lot of
resources, but they're indifferent places, so the idea is
bring it together and reallyemphasize it, shine a spotlight
(03:28):
on it, and make it easier tofind, more accessible, and then
give it a place to grow. So wealready have a great set of tool
kits. But what's missing? Whatneeds to be developed? What
other tools can we develop? Sothis will provide that kind of
focal point for it. The otherthing is that you think about
the CEO job, and CEO issuccessful, if his governance is
(03:49):
successful, if the CEO and theboard are working in unison,
they're aligned, goals areclear, resources are being
allocated according to the goalsand the plan of the
organization, then you have ahealthy organization and it
functions. Things break downwhen governance doesn't work.
And so in our view, job one fora CEO is to make sure that
(04:13):
governing process works; thatthere's communication; there's
transparency; there's clarity.All those types of things. And
part of our goal is to reallysupport the CEO in carrying out
that part of their position, theCEO and the staff team in other
industries. corporate setting.You have the National
Association of CorporateDirectors in the healthcare
(04:36):
setting. You have othergovernance resources.
Associations do not have thatkind of focus, and we're
bringing that kind of focus toit.
Mark Graham (04:43):
Yeah. And as Paul says, this is a starting point.
In January, this thing willcontinue to evolve and grow with
the help of our advisorycommittees. Paul has been
instrumental, my partner incrime, if you will. He's a
bright star when it comes togovernance knowledge. So he's
helped guide this thing from thevery beginning.
Dave Coriale (05:01):
No better guide out there. So I do have a
question. You mentioned content.Two questions. One's about
content. You mentioned thatyou've gone through and you've
curated the content. So thissounds like it's new content,
and probably a mix of someexisting content. And so I want
to hear a little bit more aboutthat, as well as the assessments
that you mentioned. What type ofassessments would one find in
(05:22):
the AGI?
Mark Graham (05:23):
Sure. So the content is divided into a couple
of different categories. Youhave a lot of opinion and
articles thought leadership onbest practice and governance and
all those categories that I justmentioned. We also have how-tos,
checklists and case studies.These are all tools you can give
people to help them do better.In governance, I'll focus on
maybe one area (05:44):
executive transitions. There is a lot of
guidance. We've been talkingabout CEO succession for decades
and how to improve it. So we'vegone through and curated all the
best articles on CEO succession.We provide some checklists on
CEO succession. For instance,very sadly, sometimes there may
be an abrupt departure of a CEO.They may be terminated, they may
(06:05):
quit. Sadly, may even pass away.We have checklists of what you
should do, and each one of thoseinstances, executive transition
also involves a CEO contract. Sowe have whole sections on
contracts from the board'sperspective and the CEO's
perspective, what to look for,what to negotiate, what's
important, what you really focusin on? And of course, there is
compensation. We have lots oftools and compensation
(06:27):
philosophy. We even have a wholepractice built around helping
organizations determine theright compensation for their
CEO. So that's just one of thoseareas that we really drill down
and focus in on. The content. Sowe provide the opinions, the
articles, the how tos, thechecklists. We do this for every
single one of the categories.Like in financial management, we
have 20 questions a new boardmember should be asking about
(06:50):
the financial situation of anorganization. This is good for
someone who's maybe new togovernance and doesn't know what
they're doing. So it's a goodprimer. We could talk about all
the content, almost this entirepodcast, who does just so much
of it, governance. I went intothis knowing a little bit about
governance, and now I think I'malmost an expert, almost nearly
half as smart as Paul, becausethere's so much to governance,
(07:13):
the science of it, there's somuch to it. And where people
mainly get tripped up is the artof governance. And so we hope to
be taken care of the wholepackage.
Paul Pomerantz (07:22):
I couldn't agree more. And one of the great areas
of content that we're reallyproud of, and we go through
everything like Mark says: legal, roles and (07:28):
undefined
responsibilities, all thesethings. But one of the areas I'm
very proud of is the boardselection and development piece.
And this is the area where MarkEngel and some other folks have
been leaders in this area andhave really created publications
and tools. Well, all those aregoing to be curated into this
(07:50):
website. So the whole idea of,how do you evaluate board trends
and board needs? How do yourecruit for a board house is an
optimal leadership developmentprocess? How do you orient and
train and own board members? Howdo you evaluate their
performance? All those kinds ofreally rich tools that haven't
been easy to locate will be partof our resource center.
Dave Coriale (08:13):
And I think that's a critical piece. You just
pulled out the easy to locate,right? So the ease of use of
this resource center, andespecially if it's being
redesigned, or being designedfrom the ground up right now, as
opposed to taking something andtrying to fix it, always yields
a better user experience. Andspeaking of the users, who is
this targeted? Is it the CSO,the chief staff officer? Or is
it the board? Is it both? Who'sthe target of the resource for,
Mark Graham (08:34):
Really anyone involved in government. So
what are most of the resourcesfor?
Dave Coriale (08:36):
Yeah, it certainly makes sense. I know how to run
primarily, is going to be thechief executive and board
members, but increasingly,especially large organizations,
my business, but I've been on aboard, and the orientation was,
they'll likely have a chiefgovernance officer or someone
you know, "this is our cadenceof meeting. This is how we do
who's a significant portion oftheir time is dedicated towards
governance. These are for peoplewho aspire to the C-suite or
aspire to serve on a board thata lot of people just think
they're going to learn on thejob. And I can't stress enough
(08:57):
this process. This is who is thehead of this. This is who's the
that's the wrong way to do it.You don't want to start making
mistakes on the job. When itcomes to governance, you want to
go in fully educated on how thisstuff works and where the
landmines are. I've seen toomany CEOs, chief executives get
tripped up because they didn'tknow what they didn't know.
(09:26):
head of that." That's verydifferent than what I'm hearing
here in terms of giving the teamthe resources they need to
really ensure that thegovernance is quality, right?
The assessment piece, theonboarding piece, you're talking
about the content that I couldhave as a board member reviewed
to understand my role better andhow I contribute better. That's
(09:47):
what it sounds like. We'rebridging the gap between I'm on
a board to what's the mostsuccessful version of the board.
Paul Pomerantz (09:53):
One of the critical audiences we had in
mind, CEOs, board members. Butalso--so and Mark mentioned
this--that governanceprofessional, the chief
governance officer, director ofgovernance, sometimes manager
board operations. They havedifferent titles, and most of
(10:13):
them are that, like everyone Imet, is a supreme professional,
but they all come from differentbackgrounds. They all have
different experiences. And whenpeople are introduced to this
job, they may not have all thefoundational elements. We
developed a course that will beoffered asynchronously, called
Introduction to AssociationGovernance, and it was
(10:35):
originally for this group ofgovernance staff professionals
sometimes new to the job, justto give them a common framework
to operate from. But as we'vebegun to develop this course,
realize it's of interest to newCEOs. And also CEOs are telling
I'd like to share this with ourboard. In this course, the
(10:55):
station in this course, whichwill be ready in the coming
weeks, we'll have legalfundamentals, roles and
responsibilities of the board,board selection and development
and a function of a boardmeeting, what you need to do
before, during and after. So thetools, as you can see, are
really intended for everybodywho's part of the governance
(11:16):
process.
Mark Graham (11:17):
Yeah, offering a micro credential in that course
you can get certified ingovernance.
Dave Coriale (11:23):
That's awesome. You mentioned that course is
asynchronous, right? Are therein-person events also associated
with this resource?
Mark Graham (11:30):
With AGI, there is. Where ASAE has two exceptional
governance in-person coursesalready that have a long history
and a really great programs.Blend Teck program, CEO
Symposium, the one mark Engelruns Exceptional Boards. But we
have added another one calledthe Governance and Strategy
Forum within the McKinley Group,which is going to have its
(11:51):
inaugural meeting of April 29here in Washington, DC. It's a
two day in person event. It'sdesigned to build the strong
partnership between the CEO andthe elected leaders, typically
the, of course, the chair. Butthese are also open to incoming
chairs. These in person meetingswe hear time and time again are
(12:13):
terrific to build those bondswith the chief staff and those
elected leaders.
Dave Coriale (12:18):
That's awesome. There's a micro credential
associated with this in thein-person piece. I know that a
lot of work has gone into thatnew in person piece that you
just talked about, that'shappening in April, and I'm sure
that the participants will comeout with much more than they
thought they would when theywent into it. And I'm aware of
the symposium and other piecesthat you talked about, and
(12:38):
they've always had a great trackrecord. So before we wrap up on
AGI, one of the other thingsthat I remember hearing about
was some assessments. Earlier,you mentioned there are some
assessments too that are relatedto it. Who's the target audience
assessments, and what might oneexpect to put into it and get
out of it? If you couldelaborate on that a bit.
Mark Graham (12:57):
Certainly. At launch, we're going to have two
assessments, but we have moreplanned. But at launch, we're
gonna have two assessments. Oneis a CEO assessment the board
would use to evaluate the chiefexecutive, and the other is the
board self-assessment, where theboard would evaluate themselves
on maybe 11 areas to see howthey do, how they function, how
(13:19):
they work, and compare itagainst thousands of other
organizations who've taken thisassessment as well. So the CEO
assessment is very cool. It'sfour parts. It's a custom tool
there where you could enter inyour own performance evaluation
of your chief executive. Everyorganization is different. They
have their own KPI and goals.Well, there's certain things
(13:39):
that are just fundamental toevery organization. There is,
how will you do the job, theadministration of a CEO role.
There is the leadershipqualities, the personal
leadership qualities, yourinterpersonal skills, your
communication skills. And then,of course, we have
accomplishments and challengesthat are present for every
organization as well. So thistool is an online tool that
board members fill out at theend of this survey, they take on
(14:01):
the chief executive. They get areport, and also the CEO takes
this survey as well, so the CEOand the board can compare how
the CEO perceived themselves inthese areas compared to how the
board viewed the CEO in theseareas. And the other the board
self assessment tool focuses inon, I think it's 11. Sorry, we
are working on so much here atAGI sometimes it's hard to
(14:22):
remember the exact number anddetails of these parts. But if
focusing on how theorganizations, the culture, the
meetings, the policies,financial oversight, and how
well board members think they doin these areas, and again, then
we compare it to. No board isperfect. Some boards are great.
Some boards are okay. And sowhat we're going to get with
this report is we're going tosee how you stack up again.
(14:42):
Stack up against a bunch ofother organizations. So these
two tools were created, actuallya long time ago in partnership
with board source, but ASAE hasnow taken them in house, and now
they'll be part of AGI.
Dave Coriale (14:56):
Understood. And what's the time commitment on
the organization or theexecutives part on those types
of self assessments?
Mark Graham (15:02):
About 30 minutes, 30 minutes. It's a thing, where
you can jump in on your phone,fill out few things, come back.
But if you sat down, reallywanted to push for it, it's
about 30 minutes on each one.There is some administration for
the CEO assessment, because someof those questions are custom
assessment questions. But oncethose are done, the board member
can expect about 30 minutes.It's a good tool they can use
(15:23):
year after year and track theirprogress, board self assessment
and the CEO assessment, so theycan see where they're doing
better and where they still havesome work to do.
Paul Pomerantz (15:32):
It's a wonderful tool. I've seen it used. I've
used it on my own board, andI've worked with other boards.
And what it does is it providesthat opportunity for the board
to give itself feedback. This isa board self-assessment, and
boards could be their mostcritical evaluators. And so it's
one thing for a CEO that say,you guys could be doing better.
(15:53):
It's another one for the boarditself to look at this and say,
we could be doing better. And sowhen properly done and
facilitated, these instrumentsare incredible because the board
identifies not only itsstrengths but its weaknesses,
and gets to compare itself withits peers. And so that's really
eye opening for board members.The eyes light up. They get
(16:14):
excited, and they're engagedabout how do we move forward?
How do we become better? It's agreat tool for self improvement.
Mark Graham (16:21):
These tools are completely confidential. The
board members are not going toknow who answered to what
questions, so it really getssome honest feedback of the CEO
and of course, the board.
Dave Coriale (16:30):
Yeah, that's a really important point to make
in ways you want to ask also,one of the things we love to do
in this community is benchmarkourselves against others, right?
Will there be as you collectdata across time, even though
it's anonymous, will there bethe opportunity to see where
your ratings stand against otherorganizations?
Mark Graham (16:48):
Yeah. In fact, in every report, you will see every
single category, almost everysingle question, how you stack
up against all of your peers,because this poor self
assessment has been administeredfor gosh, I drew my math here,
16 years, we have an enormousamount of data, awesome to pull
from. The CEO assessment is nota benchmarking tool. And it
shouldn't be, for probablyreasons. But the board
(17:09):
self-assessment, you'll be ableto see how you do, yeah, and
year to year, if you do thereport every year, every couple
years, you can just go back tothe little report and see how
you did.
Dave Coriale (17:18):
So speaking of how you do, is one of the key
aspects of this. How are wedoing as a board? How are we
doing as a chief staff officer?Paul, you started this thread.
You started this conversationaround the CEO is successful, or
the chief staff officer issuccessful when governance is
solid, paraphrasing a little bitthere. But you're saying
governance a good place. CEO hasmuch more likely chance of
success. And I know you alsomentioned earlier, culture
(17:42):
playing a role in that, andthat's something that I feel
like you've focused on. You'vewritten some articles about it,
you've talked about it. I'veheard you talk about culture,
fair assessment, fair statement.That's important as far as
success goes beyond just theoperational aspect.
Paul Pomerantz (17:56):
Yeah, I would say it's probably the most
important aspect and the leastwell defined.
Dave Coriale (18:01):
I was going to ask you to start by defining what
when you talk about culture, howdo you define it?
Paul Pomerantz (18:06):
Greatly, it's like that famous quote by
Justice Potter Stewart. I noticewhen I'll know it when I see it.
He was describing pornography inthose days. So probably not a
great analogy, but culture,we're going to end up with an
explicit rating, exactly, youknow, and your kids listening to
this. But no, all kidding aside,the culture really refers to
(18:28):
what groups value, what theybelieve in, and how they behave
towards each other and toothers, and it really reflects
The norms of behavior. Andwhat's interesting is that
culture is not defined by whatpeople say they are. So one of
the big misinterpretations outthere is, well, the board
(18:50):
values, right, or theorganization values they
represent your culture. They maynot, because the culture is
really how you live, how youbehave, people. And I'll say
Mark Engel again, he has assuredwith me, and I truly believe it,
that there are three pillars togovernance, strategy, structure
and culture. And the if youthink about it, strategy is your
(19:14):
direction, structure is thehardware, right? How's the board
organized? How many boardmembers are there? How's it
staff, all those kinds ofthings. But culture is the
software. It's really how itworks. It's the operating system
that really makes the boardoperate. And the literature is
full of examples of when culturedoesn't work properly. They go
(19:36):
back in the last couple years,we've had issues on the media
with the National Association ofRealtors, where culture broke
down, the organization was blindto activities that took place
within the organization that wasvery costly for a reputation of
the National Association ofRealtors, certainly in the
corporate sector and the forprofit industry, many examples
(19:59):
and we can point to. To reallythe very high profile experience
with Enron, going back to theturn of the century, where, you
know, that led to really thedownfall of that company,
because the board was not payingattention to things it should
have, and accounting was hidden.It was falsified. And really
resulted not only in thedownfall of that company, but
(20:21):
new laws and regulations such asthe Sarbanes-Oxley Act that
really required a high degree oftransparency, and we can go
through examples in this articleI wrote for more brief, there
are many examples where it'sjust very costly, where, when
the culture breaks down, itcould be extremely costly for
(20:41):
the organization. Interestingly,people would say, what's a an
example of the good cultures ofpeople getting along? Is it
people being very civil witheach other? And I'd say, no,
it's really the reverse. It'swhere boards are inquisitive,
where there's healthydisagreement, where there's
healthy curiosity, there'srobust discussion of issues
(21:03):
where people are heldaccountable. There's
accountability of the staff.There's accountability to each
other, and the board is engagedin a very rigorous process of
self evaluation, evaluation ofthe organization and
accountability. They're askingthe tough questions about their
industry. They're asking thetough questions about the
(21:23):
organization and how wellthey're doing. They're asking
tough questions about theircompetitors in the competitive
environment that they're in. Ithink we sometimes falsely seek
in our organizations a degree ofcamaraderie that may not
necessarily be healthy. And oneof the things we talk about in
the article is that associationboards are especially vulnerable
(21:46):
to this false sense of harmony.And the reason is, in
associations, you got peoplefrom the same profession or same
industry, and we're less likelyto be critical to call each
other to account, because I'mgoing to rely on you. Let's say
you're in my profession to helpme to advance further. I want
you to like me. I don't want tocall you out, because then
(22:06):
you'll call me out. But in thecontrary, that false harmony can
be very detrimental to theorganization. So I hope that
makes sense, and what we talkabout in the article is, how do
you evaluate your culture, andthen what are some of the tools
and resources that are availableto help check in and improve
that culture? It's not all thathard. It's really just asking
(22:27):
the right questions. The boardself-assessment is clearly a
tool you can use the CEOselection and evaluation. That's
a very critical resource youwant to make sure that the CEO
has been somebody who has hadexperience building a culture,
building a partnership with theboard, sets the model for a
healthy culture. In anorganization, you want to
(22:50):
recruit board members who havesimilar types of experiences
that are good at this. Theyunderstand what they're trying
to do. Look at the board agendasover time. That's another tool
as well. Boards with a healthyculture will spend more time on
strategic items and generativeitems. They're going to spend
more time exercising theircuriosity and asking tough
(23:12):
questions. Boards that have aweaker culture are going to
spend their time on operationalissues and micromanagement. Why?
Because it's easy way of gettingout of the tough issues. You
really want the board focused onthe tough issues. Another thing
that many boards are doing isthey're bringing on public
members and other perspectivesto create a diverse, diverse
(23:34):
points of view. So if you have aboard that's we're all from the
same industry, we're all used totalking to each other, bring in
different perspectives, bring ina member of the public, bring in
a customer of members, either asa member of the board or on an
infrequent basis, to helpchallenge the board and then
lean into the bad news. What Ifound is boards tend to avoid
(23:56):
the bad news until it's toolate. What you want to do is, if
you had a bad recordfinancially. You want to talk
about that. What does that mean?The industry is facing some
tough times. What are you goingto do, and how are you going to
address that? That you've had astaff engagement survey, there
are some signs of stress amongthe staff. How do you present
that to the board and talk aboutthat? But leaning into the bad
(24:18):
news, having those frankconversations is very much part
Dave Coriale (24:21):
So there's a lot in there, right? I'm trying to
of that.
listen and parse all the waythrough that, and it all made
sense. You asked in the quite inthe middle of that, you said,
that does that? If this makessense, it all made very good
sense. Culture eats strategy forbreakfast, right? So culture is
one of those things that youhave to have your eye and it's
also always known to be one ofthose things that it's really
(24:42):
hard to change. You can'texecute a new culture like you
use the word. You have to buildit. You have to push towards it.
And you tied that to the valuesof the organization. And when
there's misalignment betweenvalues and action, is what it
sounded like to me, fairassessment, that we have values,
that there. The website we'redone with that. Let's move on.
(25:03):
That's a critical piece that canfall apart when you're not
paying attention to it.
Paul Pomerantz (25:07):
Exactly. I've seen too many boards say and
come up with values that don'treally reflect who they are. So
our value is customer service.Our value is civility. Now you
really got to break down, whatdo you really mean and what do
you truly live? And I'm going tomodify your quote there, culture
eats strategy. I'm gonna sayculture eats CEOs. What happens
(25:30):
is, if a CEO knows how to manageculture, understands culture
knows what to look for, they'regonna do well. But what I see
too often is that CEOs willenter organizations not really
familiar with the culture thatthey're walking into, not sure
how to measure it, not sure oftheir compatibility with the
culture, and try to redefinestrategy or their role or change
(25:56):
culture without really knowinghow to do it. And we see those
stories all the time, and havinga cultural competency is really
important for a successful CEO,particularly as it comes to
working with governance.
Mark Graham (26:08):
Well, we'll add though, culture can sometimes be
the third rail in organizationmanagement, because a CEO goes
in there, they can see theculture is not well, but to
change it, they may have totackle their own board of
directors. I've seen manyassociations CEOs going, Nope,
it's just not worth it. I'mgoing to just go with the status
quo. And sadly, that's reallyone of the reasons why we want
(26:28):
AGI to be successful. We believein excellent governance. We want
to give people the tools tomaybe tackle that third rail,
even though it's a littleintimidating. But if culture's
eating things again, yeah, Ithink it is eating CEOs and
strategy, probably a few otherthings.
Dave Coriale (26:43):
It's such a big word, and so I'm wondering if
there is an assessment. Yeah, Ithink you mentioned there is an
assessment. Are there ways toassess culture as a new CEO
walking in? Because one of theways we define it is how work
gets done. Right here at Delco,we say culture is how our work
gets done, and we're not talkingabout the process that we go
through. We're talking aboutwhat you talked about, Paul, in
terms of whether or not wecommunicate with each other
(27:04):
frankly and honestly, or if wejust want to get along for the
moment, whether or not wechallenge each other. That helps
us define what we mean byculture. But in the AGI content
and assessments, how does theCEO get help assessing their
culture?
Mark Graham (27:19):
I think when Paul and I first adopted the board
self assessment and took a lookat it, we made some minor tweaks
to it, to update it, modernizeit for 2024. But he and I saw a
huge opportunity to reallyupgrade this. So we're already
in the planning stages ofversion 2.0 of the board
assessment, and really drillingdown on culture, because we both
believe it's very important,because this is a benchmarking
tool, you need to make thesechanges like once or twice. You
(27:41):
can't just make iterativechanges to a benchmarking tool.
So we made very small changes toit for this first version, but
this next version that Bucha andI were working on in 2025 we
hope to really drill down onculture. I'm not sure if it's
going to help CEOs going into anorganization, unless executive
(28:04):
recruiters require boards totake this self assessment before
entering into a search phase.But at least when they're in
there, the board, the CEO andeveryone who reads this report
might know where they're weakand where this improvement to be
had
Paul Pomerantz (28:17):
And I'll add to that that the courses that ASAE
offers at CEO Symposium,Exceptional Boards. These offer
opportunities to talk aboutculture. I think there's good
content in there that GlennTecher and Mark Engel and others
offer that allow for that frankdiscussion about things. The
other thing I'll say is that ifyou come in as a new CEO and you
(28:40):
say, All right, I'm going toaddress this culture, and I'm
going to have that changed insix months. That's not how it
works, a slow process. You workby example. You work
iteratively. Your organizationwill live by the example you
set. By your example oftransparency. By your example of
collaboration, your example ofhow you raise issues and discuss
issues, you'll begin to shapethe culture that you want to
(29:03):
achieve. I think that theorganization I came from, the
American Society ofAnesthesiologists, we had a very
cumbersome structure. It wasnothing that anybody would say
that they would want as agoverning structure, House of
Delegates, large board. We had aeven a third tier, because with
the board was so large, calledour administrative council. But
(29:24):
what worked was the culture. Wereally emphasized having those
discussions. We emphasizeaccountability, we emphasize
transparency, we lean in thecontroversial items, and the
members really appreciated itand were able to get things
done. And I think that's how youdo it. You set the example you
build trust, one board at atime, one president at a time,
(29:44):
and you'll get to where you wantto get to.
Mark Graham (29:46):
Paul is talking about building this culture. AGI
is going to give people tools tohave room to build that culture.
Paul led a webinar that will beon AGI called we love this
title. Everyone hates your boardmeeting and. One of the tidbits
in there from one of theparticipants was they give video
presentations of the reportsfrom the organization in advance
(30:07):
to the board meeting, and theycan watch it beforehand, and
they can answer questions aboutit at the board meeting, but the
CFO is not going to the boardmeeting and giving a financial
report eating up valuable time.It's a valuable report. I don't
want to take away from that, butif you're giving more time in
the board meeting time, byhaving that information
presented at events, we'regiving you more time for the
strategic discussions that youneed to have, the long term
(30:30):
discussions changing the cultureof the industry and
organization. So practical tipscan be found inside AGI to be
that room.
Dave Coriale (30:38):
Doing this work of challenging each other and
having these conversations likeyou're describing without being
a jerk. That's really thesuccess of the culture you need
to build, which is challengingeach other, being candid,
leaning in, like you said, tothe problems, but everyone needs
to be civil and in ourenvironment, in our association,
501c culture, as a community. Itis we're generally nice people,
(31:00):
right? So it challenges us to bechallenging to each other, but
fortunately, we're mostly nicepeople who can do it in a way
where it's not going to turninto something that's
acrimonious among theparticipants. So hopefully
that's the outcome. But cultureis not a new word, certainly. Is
this a trend, though? Are CEOspaying more attention to culture
than they did 15 years ago. Doyou feel like I think so?
Paul Pomerantz (31:24):
What I'm seeing is more attention to that and
really trying to understand thework that's getting done. That's
a discipline generally withinthe business world. In general,
you go into a lot oforganizations now, bigger ones,
they have corporateanthropologists and business
schools are teaching businessanthropology, and I think to
some degree, all that is headinginto the association world as
(31:47):
well. Some of the consultantsthat I'm familiar with have
really begun to pay attention toculture, and a lot of the people
that Mark and I are working witha CEO Advisory Committee really
are attuned to the culture inthe organization. And like you
say, how work gets stuck.
Mark Graham (32:03):
Search teams are created tuned to this as well,
and when they place the chiefexecutive, it's in their best
interest to have a long,fruitful, happy relationship. So
they don't want to put someoneinto a mismatch. So they're
doing assessments and doing theevaluations on the board and the
CEO to find out a bettermarriage.
Paul Pomerantz (32:20):
Yeah. Well, what I would say is that CEOs who may
succeed on business measures,and they may succeed on culture
measures, they'll get fired forfailing on culture business,
they'll be more forgiven. AndI've seen this time and time
again, where you see anorganization with stronger
(32:40):
results, but you have a culturalmismatch, and it just doesn't
work. I would say that this isthe most critical of skills for
effective governance.
Dave Coriale (32:49):
I want to hit on one more topic before we wrap
up, and that is, and Paul, youwere nice enough earlier to
bring me into the conversationby talking about the hardware
and software, because I'm a techperson, right? That's what we do
here at Delcor. Word technologyalignment with mission, vision
and business objectives. And oneof the things that I've seen in
governance is a struggle betweenthe staff and the boards as it
(33:14):
relates to the technologyintegrating with the strategy.
I've said this a million times,that 10 years ago, we as
technologists were order takers.Tell us what you want. We'll
build it or buy it or buy it foryou. Good luck. Now there's an
opportunity for true strategicparticipation and saying, "Tell
us your vision, tell us yourobjectives. Let us help you with
the fidelity around the edges ofthat because we might know
things you don't in setting thatstrategy or setting that
(33:36):
objective." We might knowcapabilities that the
organization could have. What doyou feel like the role of the
board and the governance body isas it relates to technology
within a well functioningorganization?
Paul Pomerantz (33:49):
I don't think it's ever been more critical.
And it's funny what you say. Igo back to when I first started
in the industry, and that was inthe last century, back those of
the 19th century, roughly, andit was exactly what you say, but
somebody else does that. It's alower level task. Now it's it's
not only a C-suite function, butthe CEO is really expected to be
(34:09):
conversant in the strategy andissues surrounding technology.
And I think it comes down to acouple areas. One is assuring a
seamless and excellentexperience for the
organization's constituents,whether it be its members,
external stakeholders, whoeverit is, the board has an interest
in making sure that theorganization is engaging
(34:33):
accessible, that the experienceof people who interface with the
organization And the wholeinterface is technologically
based, is a good one, and thatwe're getting information and
we're learning from each personwho comes in boards. Want to
make sure that that experienceis there, and that they're
gleaning the information thatcomes from that. The second
(34:53):
area, I think, deals withemerging technology, and
particularly around AI. That hasbecome a strategic item for
virtually every board I talk tohow is AI going to be used? How
are we managing the risks of AIas well as the upside of AI? Do
we have an AI strategy? How isit going to help us
competitively, and how are ourcompetitors using it? How are we
(35:16):
using it and really lookingthrough the future? How are we
understanding its capabilitiesand moving forward. And the
third area, I would say, wouldbe in the risk management. The
whole area around cyber crime.Cyber Risk is keeping every
board I know up at night. Now,the larger the organization, the
more pearls the risk, the morechance for the organization to
(35:40):
be hacked for information to getout there, and then the deal
with that. And so boards want tomake sure that there's a good
strategy towards dealing withthe cyber crime, cyber risk, and
that the CEO and this team arereally on top of that, including
that not only staff need to bewell trained in dealing with
cyber risk, but the boarditself, and really all the
(36:03):
commitments anybody interactingwith the organization needs to
be cognizant of the riskfactors. So those are three that
come right to mind. Mark, I mayhave missed some items there.
Mark Graham (36:13):
Again Paul, perfect. I have nothing to add.
Dave Coriale (36:15):
Then I will ask you both to add one thing as we
close out. First of all, Iappreciate you spending the time
and explaining this. This theAGI, sounds like an awesome new
resource for the community. Iwould like to know what advice
you would give an associationleader that is looking to build
that healthy culture and boardrelationship in 2025. What do
(36:36):
you both have to say? We'llstart with you, Mark.
Mark Graham (36:38):
I think it really comes down to spending time
together and building thatpersonal relationship, because
that's where you're going tobuild, the trust, where you can
be candid with each other. Paulspoke earlier, delivering bad
news is much easier when youhave a strong personal
relationship with someone. Forme, my recommendation for any
chief executive with their boardis spend more time with them.
Paul Pomerantz (37:00):
I thoroughly agree with that. And the other
thing I'd say is, it's nosecret, we're in a tough time.
The world has been turned on itshead. We're trying to understand
this world that we're in, and Ithink having frank discussions
with the board that talk about,what are the risks now to our
organization, our professionalindustry, and what are the
opportunities? And one of thetools that we talk about, it's
(37:22):
in a lot of materials that theAGI has, is and it's and will be
discussed in the issue of boardbrief that'll be coming out soon
is the use of generativediscussions at the board level.
In other words, having adiscussion at the board that's
not about finding answers, butit's about understanding and
just as a board discussing, whatdo you see as the new risk? What
(37:45):
do you see as new challenges toyou? What's your experience in
your profession and yourbusiness, and how's it changing
now? And what are some of thethings that our association
needs to be paying attention to?So it's really trying not to try
to avoid the controversy, but aswe said before, lean into it a
bit. Don't create argument, buttry to understand it. How are
(38:07):
different members of yourorganization, different
generations, different ownershipmodels, how are they
experiencing the changes we'reseeing taking place, and how do
we best navigate it as anorganization?
Dave Coriale (38:19):
I love that piece in there, you said, try to
understand it. It's a humannature. It's a common thing,
especially when you're pressedfor time, or don't have the
relationship that you talkedabout, Mark to start assessing
blame, as opposed to trying toassess and understand. So I
think that's a super elegant wayto put just try to understand it
before you start solving it.Especially, and if I may be so
(38:40):
bold, to offer my one piece ofadvice to this CEO and to the
board, et cetera. It issomething that you touched on a
second ago, which is, don't cutspending on cybersecurity. We
work with a lot of IT leaders,and It shocks me the number of
organizations that the head ofit is putting in the budget some
type of cybersecurity, whetherit's a tool to further protect,
(39:01):
or it's education which is alsogoing to protect, and they come
back, and that's been what'scut. Yes, build a mindset of
cybersecurity first in yourorganization. So again, thank
you. I look forward to seeingyou both in 3d in real life some
point soon, but I appreciatevery much the time we spent
together here.
Paul Pomerantz (39:20):
Thank you, David. This was fun. Yeah, lot
of fun. Thanks, David.
Dave Coriale (39:23):
Thanks everyone for listening to this episode of
Associations NOW Presents. Joinus each month as we explore key
topics relevant to associationprofessionals discuss the
challenges and opportunities inthe field today and highlight
the significant impactassociations have on the economy
the U.S. and the world. Be sureto subscribe to our podcast on
Apple, Spotify, or wherever youlisten to your favorite
(39:45):
podcasts. And for moreinformation on this topic, visit
Associations NOW online atassociationsnow.com. Thank you.
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