Navigating Tax Reform: Advocacy for Associations and Nonprofits

Episode Transcript
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Steven Stout (00:04):
Welcome everyone to Associations NOW Presents, an
original podcast produced by theAmerican Society of Association
Executives. Today, sitting infront of the mic is myself,
Steven Stout with the TexasSociety of Association
Executives, alongside mycolleague and friend Katy
Markert, who will be serving asyour guest co-hosts for today's
episode.

Katy Markert (00:22):
Hi everyone. I'm Katy Markert, also with TSAE,
and we are so thrilled to behere with you today. Usually,
Steven and I are on our ownpodcast, as he mentioned, Better
by Association, produced byTSAE. And on our podcast, we
refer to our listeners as"100-Percenters," because, as
you probably know, associationexecutives give 100% of

(00:44):
themselves all the time. So youmight hear us refer to that
today. And I want everyone toknow.

Absolutely. So all those listeners hearing us for
the first time, welcome to the100- Percenter family. And for
those who found us here from ourother podcast, welcome back.

Welcome back. Normally, I know we're used to
speaking to what we think isjust Texans, but I'm really
excited that this is a nationalstage Steven.

Agreed. We sometimes have listeners in
Australia, China and theNetherlands. So being here makes
total sense. Were you nervousabout being here today Katy?

What's funny is I wasn't until I heard that we
were going to be on camera, andthen all of a sudden, I got a
little bit nervous, but usuallywe don't do that, but I don't
mind. I'm just pretending that'snot happening. And I don't know.
I think after this, we'vecompleted two seasons of our
podcast, and I think I startedoff a little more nervous, but
the more we've done in it, themore I realized we just have

(01:36):
really great conversations, andI always learn something. And
it's really lowered that kind ofnervousness level for me. I
really don't think about it toomuch, but what about you? I
don't know. I'm starting. I'mgetting the vibe that maybe
you're you feel opposite.

Yeah, I was a little nervous. No, to be honest
with you, I changed my shirtthree times. I did the teenager
thing in the closet, like I wentthrough things and was like, "I
have nothing to wear. I hate allmy clothes." I was nervous. But
now we think you said we've donethis so much that it it feels
like home when we get to dostuff like this. But the point
of all this is that we are happyto be with you today, and thanks
for having us.

Yes, absolutely. Now, Steven, we are recording
this the second week ofDecember, right before the
holidays in 2024 and we all justcame out of Thanksgiving with
our families and loved ones.Yes, and typically, at
Thanksgiving, I just, I love myfamily. I just want to say that
about how to say there is thatone question that I get a little

(02:34):
nervous is going to come up. Doyou know the question I'm
talking about?

Why can't you be more like your sister, Sharon?
Is that the one?

It probably should be. But no, the question I'm
thinking of has a lot more to dowith politics, as we know should
never bring that up in theholidays, and in particular this
year, I was worried about thewho did you vote for question?

Oh yeah, that is a sticky one at family gatherings.

It can be now, perhaps we can sidestep that
question here, but there aresome more important issues tied
to politics that we should allbe keeping a close eye on in the
association space, no matter whoyou voted for.

That's right. And today we are diving into one of
those topics, and that is taxreform.

That's right. And luckily, we get to ask the
questions and not answer them,because this is actually going
to be complex in 2025 today, weare speaking with Mary Kate
Cunningham, CAE, Chief Publicand Governance Officer with
ASAE.

Alongside my colleague and bestie from Ohio,
Jared Clabaugh, CAE, presidentand CEO with the Ohio Society of
Association Professionals.Welcome guys.

Mary Kate Cunningham (03:40):
Thanks for having us.

Yeah, thanks for joining us today as we guest co
host this podcast. Now, on ourpodcast, we always ask the same
question to our guests, andwe're taking the opportunity the
same here. So our firstquestion, it's an easy one, I
promise. What is your fall-instory? How did you fall into the
industry? As we all know, a lotof us did not go to school for
this. We found this industry andfell in love with it and stayed

(04:02):
so we'd love to hear your fallenstories and how you came across
our space.

I can share that I worked on the Hill,
and then I was at a think tankand struggling with kind of the
lack of action sometimes thatyou have at think tanks. And my
roommate from college, BethPalmisano, worked in marketing
at ASAE, and that is how I foundASAE, 12 and a half years ago.

Oh my gosh, wow. So you have your college
roommate to thank for all this.

Absolutely, yes.

I'm not sure I've ever thanked my college roommate
for anything. So that's nicethat your college roommate did
something nice for you. AndJared, what about you?

Jarrod Clabaugh (04:34):
A buddy of mine actually worked for a newspaper
here in Columbus, and he heardabout a job offering with the
Ohio Restaurant Association.They were looking for a
communications director. In mylife, I've only eaten in
restaurants, never worked inone. So I thought, "What could I
bring to that role? "And anothercollege friend said to me, it's
basically a PR job for anassociation, and that was almost

(04:56):
15 years ago, and that led toservice on the Ohio Society of
Association Professionals board,which led to me running the show
here nine years later.

So you both have your college roommates to thank
for your introduction to thespace.

Mine is a fellow RA and I'm not sure if he
made the offer to help me out orto just give me a different
perspective on going from realestate to something as sexy and
as exciting as associationmanagement.

That's wonderful. We love that you guys made it
into this industry, and we getto talk to you today. Now that
we've got the softball questionout of the way, it's time to get
into what we're here to talkabout. I just want to dive right
in. So how will the expirationof the 2017 Jobs Act provision
impact associations,particularly concerning UBIT

(05:44):
compliance and potential new taxliabilities.

A real soft want to get us started.

Yeah, speaking of those sexy questions, yeah.

Mary Kate, can you kick us off?

Sure, yeah. So I'm happy to talk about
how much is at stake next yearand why associations need to be
at the table. There are a fewbills that have major provisions
that are expiring and well, thetax cuts and Jobs Act is one of
them. There is, let's see,almost 10 trillion in proposed
policies on the table, but thereare a huge number of tax

(06:19):
exemptions that are expiring atthe end of next year. So that's
why Congress has to act. We sayCongress only acts when there's
a deadline, and sometimes noteven when there's a deadline,
and this is going to be nextyear, the Super Bowl of tax
there is the individual ratesand the corporate rates that may
change. And Congress is lookingfor a lot of revenue, and
they're looking in every sectorand profession, and that's why

(06:41):
we're really concerned about theassistance community and not
being a pay for this type oflegislation.

And then why did they suddenly start focusing on
associations, or the 501, Ccommunity? I should say

So, there was two tax policy reports that
came out in the summer, one fromthe Tax Foundation and one from
Cato, and they are listing outall the different ways that
associations are exempt, andthey're advocating for taxing
the entire 501, C community atthe corporate rate. So it is

(07:14):
really concerning. One is TaxFoundation, and one is from
Cato, and we knew we were goingto be prepared for a tax site
next year, along with everyoneelse, but we didn't know that we
were going to be specificallytargeted to really have all non
donation revenue be taxed at thecorporate rate, which is right
now, 21% that could change. Soit's probably the biggest threat

(07:35):
to associations in 30 years.

There's also a threat, possibly, to what it
could look like in regard toendowments, some of the
lawmakers have mentioned thatendowment should be taxed at the
35% rate as well, and that wouldobviously impact a lot of
nonprofit organizations.

Absolutely

Jared you as a state group, you see this as a
concern for you as well,obviously.

We do, and we're trying to educate members
about the fact that, as of rightnow, everyone is on the table.
So a lot of associations haveheard about this, but they've
heard specifically that rightnow, it looks like Cato and the
Tax Foundation are interestedmost at looking at 501 C threes.
And from what Mary Kate and ourcolleagues on the Hill have been

(08:19):
able to gather and share withus, if you have a 501, C
designation of any type, theredefinitely needs to be some
concern, and the fact thateverything but donations are
being looked at for taxation isa real threat.

Yeah, that could change the life of a lot of
groups, not or even maybe makegroups some stop existing.

I agree with you, and I also think we're
gonna see a lot more mergers andacquisitions. We saw a lot of
that during the days after COVIDand during the first couple
years of the pandemic, but Ithink that something like this
will pose a significant threatto a lot of our a lot of our
entities.

Mary Kate, you mentioned think tanks, and I
know think tanks like the TaxFoundation have proposed
significant changes to ubit,including eliminating nonprofit
exemptions for some activities,including new revenue sources
subject to taxation, such asroyalties and credentialing. How
should associations prepare tocounter these types of
narratives?

Great question, and yeah, it's really
wild. We were preparing just tostop the expansion of ubit
unrelated income tax. In thepast, in tax reform, we've had
to defeat provisions to tax,royalties, sponsorships, things
like that. But this is reallymuch bigger and across the
board, taxing associations. Sothe question how can we go about

(09:34):
defending against it? ASAE islaunching a coalition of all 501
C organizations to speak for onesong she and advocate to
Congress why associations andnonprofits are exempt. Congress
seems to understand they'reexpected to know every policy
issue under the sun, and so theyseem to understand for profit
versus charity, but they don'treally understand the

(09:56):
associations, the other 501, Corganizations. Why we're tax
exempt, that we don't enrich ourshareholders. We put that money
back into the community, and wetrain the workforce, drive the
economy, things like that. So wereally have to be at the table
to tell our story. There's goingto be a ton of new faces next
year, and there's a lot of workto do, as they say in

(10:18):
Washington, if you're not at thetable, you're on the menu, and
that's why it's really importantfor associations to be part of
the conversation.

Just to piggyback off what Mary Kate
said, it's also important toremember that nonprofits provide
the most education of any groupin the post secondary sector.
We're providing services to theindustry, to the world, the
communities in which we operatethat are often services that the
government would have tosubsidize if they're going to go
away from allowing us to haveaccess to the minimal tax exempt

(10:47):
dollars we do have to enrich ourcommunities. It's likely that
government is going to have toget more involved and spend more
money, which they claim is neverwhat they want to do.

Jared, how do you combat folks who aren't in the
DC area that are like "This is aDC issue. It doesn't matter.
We're in the state and we'refine. They'll sort it out up
there, and we'll just keep ourheads down here and just keep
moving forward."What would yousay to someone who said
something like that to you?.

I think I just tell them to look back at the
last 10 years. If they look athow legislation in DC has
impacted state organizations,regional and national
organizations, it's very rarethat something can happen
anywhere in our 50 states thatdoesn't end up impacting us. And
I also remind people about theold adage of as Ohio goes, so
goes the rest of the country. Ithink many Ohioans we're lucky

(11:33):
that we're headquartered here inthe capital of Ohio, but you're
right, Steven, there areorganizations that are outliers,
or that maybe have been theirown islands for many years, and
think it's not going to impactthem. I just remind them of
different changes in legislationthat have impacted them, and the
fact that they're the boots onthe ground while DC is off
making decisions that many of usdon't agree with. If we put our

(11:55):
hands in our pockets and don'tsay anything, we're allowing
that change to happen. Yeah,we're trying to work with ASAE
to make sure we can developmessages that allow our members
to have a true grassroots focus,that they can elevate their
message and get it in front oftheir lawmakers. The reality is,
a lot of them know theirlawmakers better than any of our
state organizations or even thefederal because they're right

(12:18):
down the street because theirconstituents, which is a word I
always want to remind ourlawmakers of their constituents
are involved with associations.One in five Americans is either
employed by or part of anassociation during the span of
their career. And if we remindpeople of that, I think it's a
very strong message that we havea lot of force behind us. And as

(12:40):
Mary Kate said, the economicdrivers are essential to many
communities. What might be ahuge windfall for the federal
government might shut down anorganization that feeds the
homeless, that that helpschildren have access to clothing
that educates veterans. Sothat's a key aspect. I also
think it's important to rememberthat most associations are two

(13:02):
to five employees. They havesmaller budgets than most for
profit companies, and that makesthem small businesses. And one
thing that so many lawmakerscampaign on is the idea that
small business is the heart ofAmerica. So if they want to
change the way that nonprofitsoperate, they're going to
directly impact the success ofsmall business.

Yeah, I love that analogy. "Save the heart of
America!" That's your campaignslogan, Mary Kate. you're
welcome.

We'll get the buttons for our flying I do
want to, since we mentioned thefly in, talk about ASAE's fly in
is open for registration. Ourdates are March 25 and 26th and
you come to DC, we teach youabout policy and asaes advocacy
issues, including tax reform.And then you go to the Hill the
next day in small groups withyour states. Jared has been a

(13:51):
state leader for many years, andit's really important, because
every year there are newcongressional staff and members
of Congress, and when they meetsomeone face to face and learn
about what associations do intheir community, then it really
changes hearts and minds. Sothat's what we're looking to do,
and it's going to be reallyperfect timing for this fly in.
It's going to be a period oftense legislation next March, so

(14:12):
we're really excited to bringpeople to DC for that
conference.

So thoughts some support, Mary Kate say the dates
one more time.

March 25 and 26th ASAE fly in, we're
going to be in DC, and we'rereally excited about it, and we
will certainly have buttons towear to go to the Hill and make
our message known.

Love it.

No that's really great, and that's that kind of
leads me to my next question. Aswe're talking about this 10
trillion in tax policies, myquestion is, how can
associations advocate for thevalue that they provide that
you've been talking about sothey're not disproportionately

I think there's many different ways
taxed?
joining our coalition, theCommunity Impact Coalition,
where also we have a tax reformaction list that you can join
for ASAE, so you can get thelatest on our issues. If you're
not able to join the coalition.We will have ways to be involved
the good and the bad part of thethis tax threat is coming from

(15:07):
think tanks. It's not currentlybill text. We never want it to
be bill text. We're trying tostop it in its tracks. Make this
radioactive, but it meansthere's a lack of specifics
about what it would actuallycover, and we've just got to
defend against everything, asJared said, especially trade
show income, investment income,things like that, are really
concerning for associations.There are different ways to be

(15:28):
involved that will share, jointhe coalition, joining ASAE's
grassroots network, are two bigones,

And how do they do that? How can they join the
Coalition? And how can they jointhe grassroot network?

We will share the links to join that
will be in this podcastdescription. How does that
sound?

So convenient? We'll put it right in front of
you.

I would say one thing that Mary Kate and I have
been messaging this a lot, butthe stories on the ground are
going to be what matters. Whatdoes the 21% tax look like on an
organization that, again, feedsthose in need. They're saying
that there's 3.6 trillion Ibelieve that they can get from
our sector in the first year,what's that going to look like

(16:08):
the second year, when half ofour sector is gone? Yeah, and
the people who know me on thispodcast know I like to develop a
one liner or two, but I canpassionately say that I'm tired
of nonprofits continuing to fixfor profit problems, and we're
really relied upon in ourcommunities to ensure that those

(16:29):
in need get help. And we'rebeing asked again to not only
continue to finance maybe somewasteful spending, but we're
also being told that the workwe're doing isn't enough, and so
I think that it's getting thatmessage out from those
communities that are local. I'ma part of my local Kiwanis, this
would vastly impact the work wedo to feed our community's

(16:51):
children and to offerscholarships that are truly the
definitive difference betweensomeone going to be college or
university or not. So I thinkKatie to expound about what Mary
Kate said. It's just merelyreminding people that this isn't
a segment, or that they're justlooking at the quote, unquote
wealthy associations. This willimpact all of us, and that will

(17:13):
ultimately impact everycommunity in our country.

Jared, you're so right.

Can you repeat that? Yeah, exactly. That on
recording one more time. I neverhear that enough.

How can we get our bullet points ready for
here's the one top line messageto the hill. And what would your
association have to stop doingif you're paying a 21% tax on
your net so we had a dentalassociation say, here are the
Mission of Mercy clinics wewould not be able to put on for
veterans, things like that. Ifyou can get that ready so that
when we call upon you to tellyour story, you have it that is

(17:44):
going to be the most impactfulfor sharing the real world
impact with Congress.

Yeah.

Unknown (17:50):
A lot of this is just education. Yeah, I've spoken to
a lot of groups now that don'teven know about this, or they
say it's somebody else'sproblem. They'll fix that for
me. And we've all seen where nottaking action has ended up
hurting our communities in thelong run.

I love both of y'all talking about just like
the stories that eachassociation has, because
truthfully, I wholeheartedlybelieve in storytelling, and
that's how people remember usand how we can really impact
people and connect through theiremotions and the stories that we
tell. So just hearing you talkabout those specifics and how it
will impact the communities, Ithink, is such a huge impact.

Yeah, now is not a time to be humble.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think
ASAE--the AC board--sees what abig threat this is, and they've
invested up to a million dollarsin from our reserves in this
effort, and now we've raisedover $300,000 for the coalition
itself. So there's a lot ofenergy and enthusiasm, and we
know there are smallerorganizations that will be able
to find it in their budget, butthere's other ways they can

(18:52):
definitely help. So definitelybe thinking about what's your
one liner? What would happen inyour community if your
associations didn't exist.

Mary Kate, how many organizations are involved
with the tax coalition reformgroup right now?

We are at over 40 now.

That's great.

Yeah, we're in our soft launch phase,
but it's just really growingquickly, and we are excited to
tell the story. There's going tobe such a competitive
environment, and because of allthe legislation that'll happen
next year. That's why we reallyneed the support to be able to
break through the noise

And correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the new
administration said they want toput together some type of tax
plan within the first 100 days?

Yes, there's so much pressure to move
quickly on this, both from theadministration, the kind of
pressure to continue their thelegacy of the tax cuts and Jobs
Act, and then in Congress, theyknow there's the first 100 days
are where the most actionhappens. They have the most
momentum. There's some debateabout, if they're between the
House and Senate, of course, onwhat the actual strategy will

(19:56):
be. The House wants to go firstwith tax reform. I think the
Senate's more interested in someother policy first, but it will
be regardless, intense policymaking period, and we really
need to be at the table there.

That times the fly in at a great point in this
discussion.

I was going to say that sounds like the first part
of the year is going to be veryimportant for this fight that we
ahead of us.

And as all things political, there's a good
chance that this will not have astamp on it by the end of 2025
that does not reduce theconcern, but we have those
wonderful midterm elections thatwill start, I think, on day 101
of the next administration. So Ithink it's important that we
realize that this may be abattle that no from both the

(20:37):
federal level and state andregional that we have to keep
our eye on in the long term?Yeah, I've also been trying to
remind groups that are mainlystate based that whenever the
federal government finds moneysomewhere, it isn't long before
state and local start looking atthat as well. If this doesn't
get defeated at the federallevel, we need to realize that
the states will likely startcoming for revenue as well.

Yeah, that's a great point. Jared, I think
people forget about that pieceof it. And I like that you
pointed out that this fight maynot have an expiration date. It
might be a while, a long fight,which makes sense. Mary Kate,
why the ASAE executive boardput so much faith in you and
money behind the fight.

Yes, having something like a laundry
list in the Tax Foundationreport of all the different ways
to tax organizations is reallyconcerning because it just
exists for tax policy staffersto go back and look at so it's
very concerning.

Yeah, many new members of Congress, we talked a
little bit about that. There's alot of those now lack historical
context on the tax cuts and JobsAct. You talked a little about
the fly-in Mary Kate, but howcan associations educate policy
makers to protect the sector'sinterests?

Absolutely, yes, there are going to be a lot
of new faces, and we're going tohave sign on letters where we'll
ask your association to join.And the way we divide the sign
on letter when it goes to thehill is by state elected
official can pull it open andsee, I'm from Arkansas. Here are
all the Arkansas associations.So really, every voice counts
there. I think that will bereally important, and it will be

(22:06):
certainly a tough road forbecause the margin is so thin in
the house, and some of thoseelected officials are going to
join the administration. They'regoing to have elections to
replace them. It's going to be,I think, a really interesting
but tough path ahead to get thislegislation through the house,
in a situation where almostevery member of Congress has a
veto, in a sense, in the house,because there's such a just a

(22:28):
few vote majority, then I thinkit's really means that every
voice is important to beeducated on this issue. Yes,
it'll definitely be aninteresting time the new
Congress, yeah.

And I know one thing Mary Kate and I have
talked about is, you know, maybethere's a lawmaker or a
legislator that's within our ownorganizations, or maybe we have
a connection to those folks.Let's find those voices. Let's
elevate those voices in a waythat helps others realize that
the impact of our industries andthe work that we do, because
let's face it, it comes down tofriendship, no matter where you

(23:03):
are in your career and in yourrole. Yeah. So if you fellow
lawmakers in DC who maybe are inyour caucus that can share the
value of association managementand the great work that
nonprofits do, they'reautomatically going to trust
their voices more. So that'ssomething that I've been trying
to work with my membership to dois finding those wonderful

(23:23):
voices and finding those strongadvocates, because we need as
many people to talk about thegreat work that we're doing as
possible.

That's so true. And if you have a
connection to a member ofCongress, we are mapping that.
So if you can emailpublicpolicy@ASAEcenter.org and
we're working on the map of allthe members of Congress who's
received awards fromassociations, who's a member of
an association, exactly whatJarrod said there. If you have a
connection like that, you're atrusted voice within them, and

(23:51):
that's super helpful. And wehave one member of Congress who
is on the Ways and MeansCommittee, who is an ASAE member
might carry, and it's just sogreat to have someone who
understands associationmanagement. He said association
management is similar to beingin Congress. It's like juggling
jello or we can have thoseconnections. I think the better.
So it's public policy at ASAEcenter.org and send us who

(24:14):
you're connected to. We just hada member over the weekend tell
us that they're connected withBilly long who's going to be
nominated to run the IRS. Sothings like that can always be
super helpful to us.

Yeah. So you pointed out you get your talking
point ready of what yourpriority is, and then if you
have a connection, make sure youinform you guys you have that as
in your arsenal as you take onthis fight.

Absolutely. And we're looking for also,
we're looking at charities tojoin the coalition, and we're
looking at the charities thatare both connected to members of
Congress and to the incomingadministration. All the
different ways to be connectedare great.

Yeah, and I would just indicate that the
leadership at ASAE has been veryengaged with the state leaders.
They are working very closely tosupport the work that the SAEs
do. And they want to make surethat we have a place at the
table. And ultimately, I thinkthat's something we need to
remember, that we can't let thisbe a deep sea issue. This has to
be something states aredelivering. I've had some

(25:11):
members tell me that we're notworried about this, and what I
tell them is, I'd rather blowout a candle than try to put
down a forest fire. So at thispoint, we know it's out there.
We don't know what's going to bein a bill, or if there will even
be a bill, but it's better to beeducated about it than to be
surprised.

Absolutely, it's so much harder to defeat
something when there's alreadybill text so absolutely Jarrod.

And Mary, Kate and I were both saying many
prayers that it would not be atrifecta. We knew that if one
party won a segment of thegovernment we had a better
chance at this, but the waythings came out up until just
last week, they were stillcalling races. But the way this
came out is Congress iscontrolled in both houses by the
Republicans, and obviously theadministration is Republican, so

(25:54):
we need to be on top of this.

Yeah, it just adds to the sense of
urgency when one party is ableto move forward because they can
use reconciliation, which is theprocess to get something through
the Senate, without having toget the 60-vote majority. So
they'll be able to use that.There are some quirks within it,
but they'll be able to use thatto pass tax before Democrats use
it to pass the Affordable CareAct. Republicans use it to pass

(26:17):
the tax cuts and Jobs Act in2017 so it reduces the hurdles
that they have to get to. It'sstill immensely complicated to
find that many votes. And if youmight remember, the Republicans
lost 22 votes on the budgetresolution to start
reconciliation for tax reformlast time, and they lost 12
votes on the actual tax reform.So it'll be a tough road to make

(26:37):
everyone happy in order, theydon't have 12 votes to lose this
time, unless they find enoughDemocrats. So it will be really
interesting to see how that allunfolds.

And just as a reminder, this would have been a
threat no matter which partywon, I've been encouraging all
of my members to dust off theircopies of the West Wing and
remind themselves how we can allbe a voice and all be a part of
this fight

Practice, walking and talking and like the doing
the West Wing.

Correct, Aaron Sorkin is yet to financially
support any of my commitment tothe West Wing, but I would say
that it's a good reminder thatwe have a voice and we can get
involved. And Mary Kate and herteam are doing so many positive
things for the industry in DC,but this is just a reminder of
how we can all come together.One message I've been really

(27:25):
thankful that I can deliver tomy members is, no matter what
your role in the associationspectrum is, if you're a CVB, if
you're a hotelier, if you're afinancial services firm, this
will impact the workassociations and nonprofits are
doing in your communities, andit will impact what you're
doing. And as a has beenphenomenal at bringing together

(27:47):
the many various stakeholders inthis to make sure we're all a
part of the conversation and tomake sure that the messaging
that's being delivered to ourlawmakers and to our members is
not beltway heavy. It's howpeople talk where they are, it's
understandable, it's applicable.And that's, I think, why these
grassroots messages are going tobe so important to winning this

(28:08):
fight.

Yeah, I love hearing the breakdown the house
and how close it's going to be.And you mentioned that there's
not bills written, there's notcurrent language yet, but are
there some specific legislativeitems that associations should
be keeping an eye on.

Outside of tax reform, I have to take the
time to talk about our we've gotreally exciting legislation that
is positive, that might pass atax reform next year. So the
freedom to invest in tomorrow'sworkforce Act is the
legislation, and it would openup 529 savings accounts that
are tax favored to be able to beused for certification and

(28:45):
licensure. So we have 149co-sponsors in the house and 25
in the Senate. It's one of themost bipartisan bills in
Congress, and it was actuallypassed through the Ways and
Means Committee in July. So ourplan is to reintroduce in
January and do our best to makesure this legislation is
included in tax reform, it has areally low score, about 85

(29:05):
million over 10 years from thejoint tax that means it's more
of a possibility to be included,and it's really an offensive
measure as well, because everyoffice that we meet with, we
explain all the certificationsthat associations provide, how
we train the workforce. Wefrankly, lean on a lot of the
blue collar certifications,because every legislator wants a
stronger workforce, and thepeople that can transition to a

(29:27):
great career really thrilledabout the work. We have a
coalition, the tomorrow'sworkforce coalition, to try to
help get this passed, with over900 organizations that have
joined on that is a freecoalition next year, because
it's a Super Bowl of tax we'redoing everything possible to try
to get that included in the taxbill. That's one positive. And
then

I just want to interrupt here real quick and
say that part of that 529, thesuccess forward, has been ASAE
working with lawmakers and theirmembers to get that message
across. I think we've at leasttwo years, maybe three. We've
been in DC during the fly-intalking about the importance of
this piece of legislation andhow it would expand
accreditations to various partsof our communities. As Mary Kate

(30:10):
said, this helps every level ofyour society. So it's not geared
at just as of right now, 529scan only be used for colleges
and universities, and there area lot of younger people in
today's workforce that theydon't want to go that route. So
what better way than expandingthose offerings without a huge
hit to their investment? And thesuccess of this is related to as

(30:33):
a ease work through the fly inand obviously their ongoing
campaign.

Yeah ,that's great.

Oh yes. And obviously, Ohio, your
society, has been really helpfulas well. Jared and yeah, the fly
in every year that helps us getco-sponsors. It's just that type
of shoe leather lobbying isreally useful for sharing the
message on the hill.

It's easy to ask a lawmaker, do you not want
to help more of yourconstituents work and make
better careers and spend moremoney and stay in your
communities.

Absolutely, it's such a bipartisan piece of
legislation, it's reallyexciting to work on.

Yeah, so that's a win. Mary Kate, any other wins
we should know about?

I think that something to put on the
radar that I've had a lot ofmembers ask me about is there is
more, I think, of a concernabout telling our story,
especially in the house, Waysand Means Committee, I think
there's a little more skepticismabout associations and a need to
do that education. And I justwant to highlight a bill that

(31:34):
passed the stop terror financingand tax penalties on American
hostages act that sounds likesomething we can all be in favor
of stopping to American hostagespaying taxes. But within that
legislation, it's HR, 9495 a lotof members have asked about it,
because it would allow theTreasury Department to revoke
the tax exempt status of anonprofit deems to be supporting

(31:56):
terrorism. Our concern is thatany kind of unilateral power
that it's giving to remove taxexempt status. So it's something
just to be aware of, and it's areminder of how we need to show
Congress how associations arethe incredibly strong governance
that we have. I think we are notthe target of this legislation,

(32:16):
but just something to consideras Congress looks to provide
more oversight on tax exemptorganizations. There's really a
strong need to explain whoassociations are, how we benefit
the society. And I'm reallythrilled we have new economic
impact research that OxfordEconomics did for ASAE, and we
have a map on our power ofassociations website that we'll

(32:37):
share the link to, where you canlook at every state and see the
number of associations, thenumber of employees employed by
associations, the taxes that wepay for State and Local and
that's really helpful forquantifying the power of
associations to Congress, andsomething that we'll continue to
do next year.

Yeah, that's so powerful, too here in Texas,
that helps those types of datapoints really help us here to
make the case here in Texas forour existence. So thank you for
all the work you do with thatpiece. It's very important to
us. I will tell you guys, yougot me a little fired up. I'm
ready to, like, I need, like, aboxing montage with Eye of the
Tiger, like, I'm ready to knocksome stuff out. But before Katy

(33:16):
gets to her last question, Iwanted to ask Mary Kate, if
people are listening, andthey've never been to the fly-in
before, and they want to getinvolved. They hear your
passion. They hear Jarrod'spassion. Can you give people a
sort of little snippet of what afly ins like if they've never
done one before? Because I thinkit sounds like we need everybody
that can come this year, whetheryou've been coming for years, or
this will be your very firsttime. We need everybody, as you

(33:37):
said, to help us with that shoeleather, lobbying, lawmaking,
explain the fly in a few onemore time for those folks who
have never, ever been.

Absolutely. So it's March 25 and 26th we
have every type of folks attend,from association lobbyists to
CEOs to people who are inassociation management but have
never gone to the hill before.So we will teach you everything
you need to know. It comes witha lot of CAE credit hours. We're
finding out the exact amountnow, but we will do a 90 minute

(34:04):
prep webinar in February toteach you the basics of a hill
meeting, how to request them,how to join your state groups,
and the top level on our policyissues, which are going to be
taxed in our five to nine bill.And then when you come to the
fly in on the first day, we willhave a special first timer
session that kicks off at 11,and we'll do more practicing
Hill meetings in small groups.And then we will have speakers

(34:28):
from the hill and then teach youthe policy issues. And then we
also provide some generalgovernment relations kind of
education, because we knowpeople need to help justify
their attendance andregistration. Sure, this year
we're gonna have an ethicscredit, which is very exciting.
We get help people with doingCAE renewal, and then we'll do a
short session on politicalcommunications. We're gonna have

(34:51):
some great experts join us. It'smore important than ever to try
to break through the noise. Soexcited about that session. So
we'll give you all theeducation, and we'll put you.
Into state groups, and then youwill go to the Hill the next
day, and we will have a lunch onthe hill, and then you'll do
your meetings in individualgroups, and we'll give you the
packets that you bring to theHill show you how to do it. And

(35:13):
it's a really great way to learnabout advocacy from if you're
new. And then we have seasonedprofessionals go and help share
the message with Congress, and Iwould say, if you haven't done
Hill meetings before, don't beintimidated. You're often
meeting with someone who's 25they want to hear about your
industry. So just explainingwhat your association is and the
benefit you provide to thesociety is super helpful. And

(35:34):
then ASA, staff can alwaysfollow up that there are
specific policy questions in ourlobbying team.

They also provide digital copies of
everything that you'll share.Last year, I went on one of the
meetings I was in. I handed themthe paper copy, and they looked
at it paper. So it's nice,because you literally can sit
right there and say the PDF isin your inbox. So they've got
that information. It's easilyshareable. It's easily
understood. It is written inlayman's terms. They do a great

(36:00):
job of making, you know, the flyin simple and understandable.
And like Mary Kate said, there'sno reason to be intimidated at
the end of the day, thesepeople, they want the same
things we do. So sitting downwith them and trying to better
our society is what all of usare doing. It's just trying to
bring everyone to that samepoint. Great, all great stuff.
Yeah,

Thank you all for breaking that down. I really
it's really helpful to know thatyou prepare and it's not as
intimidating as one might bewith that. You guys, thank you
all so much for chatting with ustoday and sharing this hugely
important information. We dohave one last question. We asked
the same question as wementioned at the beginning of
the podcast to all of the peoplewe interview, and we just want

(36:40):
to know, why do you think beingengaged with organizations like
ASAE, TSAE, OSAP, why is that soimportant?

I would say it's just the sense of
community and the continuallearning that it provides. I
think that's what makes lifeworth living. I think that joy
that it brings you is superimportant.

And I would reiterate that. I would also say
our unofficial tagline here atOSAP is we build relationships,
and ultimately, that's what thisis all about, relationships that
benefit our communities, nomatter what that community might
be, no matter what role thenonprofit or the association is
playing. I think that when youdon't have that type of
connection, it leaves you out inthe cold and having these types

(37:26):
of relationships and being ableto pick up the phone and say,
Hey, Steve, and I have aquestion about it means funny.
You mentioned that we just dealtwith that. We're picking up the
phone and saying, Mary Kate,what do you think about x? And
it helps keep those issues onone another's radar, but it also
allows us to discuss them withpeople that understand what it
is we do. Yeah, and everybody onthis call works for an

(37:48):
association. And how many timesin your life have you had
someone say to you, is thatreally a thing? So it's nice to
know and to network with peoplewho understand what the thing
is. So that's what I think thebenefit of involvement with
national and regionalassociations is

thank you guys so much for everything that you do
and for being with us today.

For fighting the good fight, man. I wish the
flying was like today. MaryKate, I am ready. Let's go.
Let's go.

Absolutely, we appreciate it. Yeah, you in
the fight and

We'll be there. Thanks again to Jarrod and Mary
Kate for joining us today, andthank you for listening to the
Associations NOW podcast. Wereally appreciate everyone
listening. And again, thank youguys for all that you do for all
of us across the country, notjust in our states, but
nationally as well. We are alldeeply in debt to you. Thank you
both.

Thank you.

I find it's always best when you have a complex
problem like tax reform, it'sbest to just throw a bunch of
smart people at it to help solveit.

Exactly, No kidding. So many of the issues
with tax reform could reallyhurt associations, but with
people like Mary Kate and Jarrodfighting alongside us, I really
feel like we have a chance toaffect a positive turnout.

Here, in my head, I have this image of Mary Kate
on a black horse with half herface painted blue, Braveheart
style. Yeah, totally Braveheart.And she rides up and down,
yelling at the associationcommunity that we need everyone
to join to fight to protectassociation on tax reform. We
don't get hyped. And he face isblue. We follow her into battle.

I love it. So Mary Kate is William Wallace in this
scenario I see, okay.

But yeah, just go with me here. And she ends with
a rallying cry. Instead of tofight English, it's to protect
our 501. C status and UBIT.

I love it. I'm with you.

Thanks 100-Presenters for joining us
today on the Associations NOWPresents podcast. Be sure to
listen to this and otherepisodes of the podcast wherever
you find your favorite podcast.

And we want to thank our guests, both Mary Kate
Cunningham and Jarrod Clabaugh.Also, thanks to ASAE for letting
us co-host today's show.

Very exciting. And if you want to continue hanging
out with me and Katy, check outBetter by Association, an
original podcast produced by theTexas Society of Association
Executives. You can also find usanywhere you listen to your
favorite podcasts. Thanks forlistening, everybody. Bye.

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