July 10, 2025 • 12 mins
What happens when you pour a Champagne-finished bourbon into two completely different glasses… with Denver Cramer, co-founder of Denver & Liely?
In this episode, Denver brings two distinct glasses to the table as we do a side-by-side of Dumangin Batch 010, a French-finished bourbon with serious flair. We compare pours, geek out over glass design, and discover how much glassware truly changes your tasting experience.
It’s not just about what’s in the bottle — it’s how you drink it.
Chapters:00:00 – Welcome back with Denver Cramer 01:00 – Two glasses, same bourbon… totally different? 02:00 – What is Dumangin and why is it finished in Champagne barrels? 03:30 – Glass shape, aroma, and texture explained 05:00 – Comparing pours: the mallet and the scalpel 06:30 – Would you gift this? Would you drink it all yourself? 08:00 – Denver’s insights on how glass design changes the game 09:30 – Final thoughts: the most refined pour of the year?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Incredible flavours, even better stories.
(00:05):
One Pour, 10 Minuts.
Aussie bourbon lovers, sharingbourbon with Australia.
Great pop.That was a good pop.
Do you want to do the-I'll do the honours.
We're excited actually because we got-Dave will introduce our special guest.
Yeah.
Denver came from Denver &Liley, the Glassware brand.
(00:27):
We're so pumped to have you back onthe show, mate, because
we're fans, if you were.
We're fans of the idea of it reallyenjoying a bourbon the way that it's best.
Yeah.
And your story is socool and all that stuff.
But we're doing a fun experiment, right?Yeah.
Which will be a little bit harder forpeople who are just listening
to understand what's going on.
But we've got two glasses side by side.
(00:47):
Do you want to talk usthrough what's going on?
Yeah.
We're going to do a little comparisonbetween the whiskey glass and the bourbon
glass and why they aredifferent shapes for one
and follow different What are we drinking?
What are we pouring for us?
What are we drinking is ahigh rye bourbon, so 28.
5%, and it'saged or bottled in France and then aged in
(01:16):
ratafia, fortifiedchampagne, essentially casks.
Oh, wow.Which is like a crazy…
I think 2021, this was our whiskey ofthe year, and this is all that's left.
Yeah, we've gone through that.We should have gone more gently.
No, it's meant to be enjoyed.
I do want to have that traditional photos,Dave, of where the bowl is almost empty.
(01:37):
I forgot that I even had it.
I was going through some stuff at my folksplace, and then I saw
that there yesterday.
I was like, Oh, fantastic.
It's a bourbon, high rye, 28.
5%, and then finished in a champagne cask.
Yeah, fortified champagne cask,which is Rata fear or
something I think it's called.Cool.
That's fun.
Yeah, and so that brand isactually a champagne company.
(02:00):
Wow.Shampagne meets bourbon.
Yeah, champagne meets bourbon.It's getting better and better, right?
Because every time I learn something newabout bourbon, I go, Oh, this is so cool.
Because never had somethingfinished with a champagne.
I think this is fantastic.
I'm even surprised that there's anyavailable in the whole world to buy now?
If anyone's tried, I don't know, you mightnot like it, but I think
(02:22):
this is phenomenal.
We're going to find out whether we likeit, but we're also going to find out which
glass we like it in because tell us aboutthe difference between these two glasses.
Sure thing.
Obviously, you've got a differentshape that's going on here.
You both got convex sides on here.
What that does is blow off volatiles,as I mentioned in the previous episode.
But it obviously does that at a differentvolume and a different It's not a focus.
(02:46):
This one should be a more rounderprofile, and this one is a
much more detailed profile.
I would say this is abit more like a scalpel.
You should be able to nearly tell themonths of age or finishing,
whereas this is more of a mallet.
But it's just a wall of sound, a littlebit more wall of sound, but still has
(03:10):
detail and clarity, but it'sfocused on different things.
I think the best thing to do is probablyexperience it first, and
then we talk about it.
All right, so I'm goingto go the mallet first.
So the bourbon.This is the right way to do it.
The bourbon glass.Sure.
The bourbon glass.Oh, my goodness.
Okay.
That's yummy.It's lots of fruit.
(03:30):
I was going to say it's gota very fruity nose to it.
Yeah, almost like a nose.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Oh, it's very smooth.
Yeah, it's really complex.Yeah.
But got like a light.
It doesn't have that really hit youin the face sometimes with bourbon.
(03:51):
That's beautiful.Yeah, it's phenomenal.
Like, amazing that they did that.
We're just going to sit hereand drink it for a while.
That's so good.
In It's a sipping one.It's not to get drunk.
It's really to think about it.
There's a detailed sharpness, too.I quite like the…
There's an intricacy or something inthe way that it sits on the palate.
With this one, you can change the smell.This is the whiskey glass.
(04:11):
This is the whiskey glass.Moving on to the whiskey glass.
Both of them will have this feature, whichis you smell at the top and you smell
behind the alcohol, and then you come downto the bottom and then
you get with the alcohol.
Wait, can you show us what you mean?
If you smell hereand then you smell down here, you'll get
a little bit more body at the bottom.
Sorry, that's not probably great.
(04:34):
Very aggressive sniffing there.Was I going too hard?
I'm sorry, everyone.
Okay.
The thing that strikes me is thatwhen you say scalpel, it feels like more…
I don't even know what theright way to describe it.
It feels like there's moreflorally notes or it's a bit
(04:55):
more detailed in a higher end.I don't know.
It's a bit more of a thought.Yeah, correct.
It really highlightsthose real fine details.
It's like a really high fidelity speaker.Yeah.
You get to hear- This oneis the caramely-flavour.
It should be slightlysweeter as well in this.
I reckon that's right.This has got a dryness to it.
It's ridiculous that aglass can affect that.
It's bizarre that it's exactly thesame thing, but smells and tastes.
(05:19):
Are you focusing on differentparts of the profile?
If you imagine you got the whole pizza andthis one will do
three quarters of the pizza.
But it makes you go like whensomeone says, I don't like bourbon.
It's like, we'll try it in thisglass and try it in that glass.
There's always a gateway bourbon.
It's interesting as well.
I reckon in this class I'm gettingway more of that champagne-iness.
(05:39):
Which glass?A whiskey glass?
A whiskey glass, sorry.I keep saying this glass.
Like everyone can see me.
The podcast, that's not that good.
Yeah, is it like a lovely…
Yeah, you're always getting bubbles.
You want the bubbles.You're like, Oh.
That's really nice.
That's ridiculous.
Do you have a favourite, Dave?
(06:01):
Well, it's a wild.Hard question.
Do you have a favourite?
Between these two, it depends on the day.
Which one would you recommend if someonewas about to open a bottle of that?
Which glass would you recommend?
It would depend on their experience.
It's brilliant, I would say for me.
If somebody new to the whole scene, I'dprobably just push them
towards the bourbon glass.
(06:21):
Butwith this particular expression, I would
personally go towards the whiskey glass.
I was going to say I preferthe whiskey in this one.
It's lighter.It's interesting, isn't it?
It's almost like that's like the bourbonglass is like- That might
be my love of champagne.
But it's like you're drinking your bourbonand then you put in the whiskey glass and
it's like you're drinking your champagne.
(06:42):
It's got something going on.
Yeah, it's like You get to thinkabout it a little bit more.
You get to see a bit more detail.
But then that said, if I don't really wantto think about it that much
and just want to have a really niceexperience, I would just go this.
Sometimes you just sometimesneed to listen to Beaver.
Exactly.Let's keep it simple.
Keep it simple, yeah.It's amazing.
(07:05):
How is it that you get to the point from…
Because the whiskeyglass was first, right?
You started with the whiskey glass in yourjourney, and then you do a few things, and
then you come to the,Let's make a bourbon glass.
How do you get fromthe whiskey glass that's successful,
people loving it, to,Let's develop something really specific,
and then how do you get theinsight from the approach?
Because I know you spoke to some prettyimpressive people to
(07:25):
develop this glass out.
I think they were just interested inhow we'd done stuff previously.
So these brands, likesome reasonable size brands, I guess,
Mictas and Russell's, theRussell family, so Wild Turkey.
What is it called?Greenbriar.
It's Nelson's Green Bright, soAndy Nelson and his brother.
(07:49):
Can't remember who else we sawon that trip.
But anyway, theyprovided amazing feedback, and I think
they liked being a bit more involved inthe journey of a product
like this, as opposed to just being,this is the right price for this thing.
We didn't have any restrictions on budget.
(08:11):
We just wanted the best research anddevelopment and information,
and they were keen on that.
It was pure passion.
Yeah, that's one of the things I loveabout the whole bourbon industry.
It's like you speak to the people who makethe barrels and there's stories behind it
and the people who are actually making thebourbon, their passion
and It's a love for it.
(08:32):
It only seemsnatural that that should then go into the
glass that they're drinking it frombecause the whole process is,
this is from my point of view, but just isso many wonderful stories
and so much passion.
Then you go to drink it and it's like,well, we just pour it into a glass.
Whereas this, I don't know,it puts story in the glass.
Yeah, totally.
(08:52):
You've got this F1 track and you'vegone on board a crawl of sports.
It'll be all right.
Then so what happens?
Do you give the guys a couple of glassesand say which one is closest
to what you're trying to do?Or is it-Was there trial and errors?
Yeah, definitely.A hundred %.
We would just…
It'll be just a conversation, justusing whatever glassware they have.
(09:16):
But just they would talk about it and wewould note or we would note after
and then send over prototypes,potentially, or we would go over
with prototypes, or we would…
Yeah, there's a A bunch ofdifferent things that we've done.
Then there were tests.
We do, I can't remember, thermo-satingPLA, which is a 3D printing plastic.
(09:40):
Then we just test out of that.
We should be able to dominate everythingelse in the market in the plastic.
Then we go to lead-free crystal,hand-blown, and it's just untouchable.
Because that's the other thing I said.
These glasses are all hand-blown.
They're all handmade.
It was this spec.
It was this spec forour family and friends.
It wasn't meant to be forThat's why- So there's every
(10:03):
single glass still hand-blown?Yeah.
That's amazing.
I didn't think this wasever going to make money.
I didn't think this was a business.
I had a great job at the time, and so didLaila, and this was a Christmas
present, and that was meant to be it.A hundred glasses done.
No parking at Chatson.
A Christmas present that became…
(10:24):
How many do you have in your range?
Bourbon, whiskey, and thenyou've done the wine one?
Yeah, bourbon, whiskey, gin, agave,beer, wine, and the Traveller.
Yeah.Amazing.
Yeah.That's so cool.
I remember when we first unboxed them,Dave was very nervous because at the
(10:45):
beginning and end of each of our episodes,we do quite the ting when we cheers.
He's just like, Are they going tobe okay to do a really good ting?
There should be a strong ting.
There's a great ting.
Mate, there's a great- Iwasn't really surprised.
For joining us.This is great.
A fun experiment.
If people want to get their hands on theglasses, they just jump
on the website, right?Yeah, jump on the website, denveralali.
(11:06):
Com.Easy.
You can go through there or we have240 something, 44 retailers worldwide now.
Amazing.
So you can rock into someplace.
Wait, I was wrapping up, but I'vegot one more thing I want to…
Because you've told me that the brief forthose guys in Kentucky and Tennessee who
you went to and said, Hey,can you help us with a glass?
Is that you wanted to try to get…
You wanted to help them or you wanted tocreate a glass that would taste the most
(11:29):
like what they were trying to achieve.
That's one of my favouritethings about this is that when…
Sometimes you drink a vermin, you'relike, This is delicious, but I wonder how…
The person who made it.Dan McKee.
Yeah, would want to taste it, definitely.
They can control everything.
They put in so much effort and so muchinvestment into controlling
everything that goes into that bottle.
(11:50):
But that final last step, when someonejust consumes their liquid, they
don't consume it out of the bottle.
How come they didn't havebetter control of that?
I think they understood that gap.Yeah.
Seeing them side by side makes you…
It still blows my mind that ittastes so different.
The drinking experience is amazingin both, and they're both different.
(12:11):
They feel like this is areally fun It's almost…
I don't want to undersell it, but italmost makes the bourbon more
sessionable or something.It feels like it's more of a friendly hug.
The whiskey glass…Sorry, that's the bourbon glass.
The whiskey glass feels likeit's more of a delicate…
It's a scalpel.We're back here.
So good.Hey, thanks for coming on, Demet.
(12:33):
Cheers.Cheers.
Cheers.
Incredible flavours, even better stories.
(00:05):
One Pour, 10 Minuts.
Aussie bourbon lovers, sharingbourbon with Australia.
Great pop.That was a good pop.
Do you want to do the-I'll do the honours.
We're excited actually because we got-Dave will introduce our special guest.
Yeah.
Denver came from Denver &Liley, the Glassware brand.
(00:27):
We're so pumped to have you back onthe show, mate, because
we're fans, if you were.
We're fans of the idea of it reallyenjoying a bourbon the way that it's best.
Yeah.
And your story is socool and all that stuff.
But we're doing a fun experiment, right?Yeah.
Which will be a little bit harder forpeople who are just listening
to understand what's going on.
But we've got two glasses side by side.
(00:47):
Do you want to talk usthrough what's going on?
Yeah.
We're going to do a little comparisonbetween the whiskey glass and the bourbon
glass and why they aredifferent shapes for one
and follow different What are we drinking?
What are we pouring for us?
What are we drinking is ahigh rye bourbon, so 28.
5%, and it'saged or bottled in France and then aged in
(01:16):
ratafia, fortifiedchampagne, essentially casks.
Oh, wow.Which is like a crazy…
I think 2021, this was our whiskey ofthe year, and this is all that's left.
Yeah, we've gone through that.We should have gone more gently.
No, it's meant to be enjoyed.
I do want to have that traditional photos,Dave, of where the bowl is almost empty.
(01:37):
I forgot that I even had it.
I was going through some stuff at my folksplace, and then I saw
that there yesterday.
I was like, Oh, fantastic.
It's a bourbon, high rye, 28.
5%, and then finished in a champagne cask.
Yeah, fortified champagne cask,which is Rata fear or
something I think it's called.Cool.
That's fun.
Yeah, and so that brand isactually a champagne company.
(02:00):
Wow.Shampagne meets bourbon.
Yeah, champagne meets bourbon.It's getting better and better, right?
Because every time I learn something newabout bourbon, I go, Oh, this is so cool.
Because never had somethingfinished with a champagne.
I think this is fantastic.
I'm even surprised that there's anyavailable in the whole world to buy now?
If anyone's tried, I don't know, you mightnot like it, but I think
(02:22):
this is phenomenal.
We're going to find out whether we likeit, but we're also going to find out which
glass we like it in because tell us aboutthe difference between these two glasses.
Sure thing.
Obviously, you've got a differentshape that's going on here.
You both got convex sides on here.
What that does is blow off volatiles,as I mentioned in the previous episode.
But it obviously does that at a differentvolume and a different It's not a focus.
(02:46):
This one should be a more rounderprofile, and this one is a
much more detailed profile.
I would say this is abit more like a scalpel.
You should be able to nearly tell themonths of age or finishing,
whereas this is more of a mallet.
But it's just a wall of sound, a littlebit more wall of sound, but still has
(03:10):
detail and clarity, but it'sfocused on different things.
I think the best thing to do is probablyexperience it first, and
then we talk about it.
All right, so I'm goingto go the mallet first.
So the bourbon.This is the right way to do it.
The bourbon glass.Sure.
The bourbon glass.Oh, my goodness.
Okay.
That's yummy.It's lots of fruit.
(03:30):
I was going to say it's gota very fruity nose to it.
Yeah, almost like a nose.
Oh, that's beautiful.
Oh, it's very smooth.
Yeah, it's really complex.Yeah.
But got like a light.
It doesn't have that really hit youin the face sometimes with bourbon.
(03:51):
That's beautiful.Yeah, it's phenomenal.
Like, amazing that they did that.
We're just going to sit hereand drink it for a while.
That's so good.
In It's a sipping one.It's not to get drunk.
It's really to think about it.
There's a detailed sharpness, too.I quite like the…
There's an intricacy or something inthe way that it sits on the palate.
With this one, you can change the smell.This is the whiskey glass.
(04:11):
This is the whiskey glass.Moving on to the whiskey glass.
Both of them will have this feature, whichis you smell at the top and you smell
behind the alcohol, and then you come downto the bottom and then
you get with the alcohol.
Wait, can you show us what you mean?
If you smell hereand then you smell down here, you'll get
a little bit more body at the bottom.
Sorry, that's not probably great.
(04:34):
Very aggressive sniffing there.Was I going too hard?
I'm sorry, everyone.
Okay.
The thing that strikes me is thatwhen you say scalpel, it feels like more…
I don't even know what theright way to describe it.
It feels like there's moreflorally notes or it's a bit
(04:55):
more detailed in a higher end.I don't know.
It's a bit more of a thought.Yeah, correct.
It really highlightsthose real fine details.
It's like a really high fidelity speaker.Yeah.
You get to hear- This oneis the caramely-flavour.
It should be slightlysweeter as well in this.
I reckon that's right.This has got a dryness to it.
It's ridiculous that aglass can affect that.
It's bizarre that it's exactly thesame thing, but smells and tastes.
(05:19):
Are you focusing on differentparts of the profile?
If you imagine you got the whole pizza andthis one will do
three quarters of the pizza.
But it makes you go like whensomeone says, I don't like bourbon.
It's like, we'll try it in thisglass and try it in that glass.
There's always a gateway bourbon.
It's interesting as well.
I reckon in this class I'm gettingway more of that champagne-iness.
(05:39):
Which glass?A whiskey glass?
A whiskey glass, sorry.I keep saying this glass.
Like everyone can see me.
The podcast, that's not that good.
Yeah, is it like a lovely…
Yeah, you're always getting bubbles.
You want the bubbles.You're like, Oh.
That's really nice.
That's ridiculous.
Do you have a favourite, Dave?
(06:01):
Well, it's a wild.Hard question.
Do you have a favourite?
Between these two, it depends on the day.
Which one would you recommend if someonewas about to open a bottle of that?
Which glass would you recommend?
It would depend on their experience.
It's brilliant, I would say for me.
If somebody new to the whole scene, I'dprobably just push them
towards the bourbon glass.
(06:21):
Butwith this particular expression, I would
personally go towards the whiskey glass.
I was going to say I preferthe whiskey in this one.
It's lighter.It's interesting, isn't it?
It's almost like that's like the bourbonglass is like- That might
be my love of champagne.
But it's like you're drinking your bourbonand then you put in the whiskey glass and
it's like you're drinking your champagne.
(06:42):
It's got something going on.
Yeah, it's like You get to thinkabout it a little bit more.
You get to see a bit more detail.
But then that said, if I don't really wantto think about it that much
and just want to have a really niceexperience, I would just go this.
Sometimes you just sometimesneed to listen to Beaver.
Exactly.Let's keep it simple.
Keep it simple, yeah.It's amazing.
(07:05):
How is it that you get to the point from…
Because the whiskeyglass was first, right?
You started with the whiskey glass in yourjourney, and then you do a few things, and
then you come to the,Let's make a bourbon glass.
How do you get fromthe whiskey glass that's successful,
people loving it, to,Let's develop something really specific,
and then how do you get theinsight from the approach?
Because I know you spoke to some prettyimpressive people to
(07:25):
develop this glass out.
I think they were just interested inhow we'd done stuff previously.
So these brands, likesome reasonable size brands, I guess,
Mictas and Russell's, theRussell family, so Wild Turkey.
What is it called?Greenbriar.
It's Nelson's Green Bright, soAndy Nelson and his brother.
(07:49):
Can't remember who else we sawon that trip.
But anyway, theyprovided amazing feedback, and I think
they liked being a bit more involved inthe journey of a product
like this, as opposed to just being,this is the right price for this thing.
We didn't have any restrictions on budget.
(08:11):
We just wanted the best research anddevelopment and information,
and they were keen on that.
It was pure passion.
Yeah, that's one of the things I loveabout the whole bourbon industry.
It's like you speak to the people who makethe barrels and there's stories behind it
and the people who are actually making thebourbon, their passion
and It's a love for it.
(08:32):
It only seemsnatural that that should then go into the
glass that they're drinking it frombecause the whole process is,
this is from my point of view, but just isso many wonderful stories
and so much passion.
Then you go to drink it and it's like,well, we just pour it into a glass.
Whereas this, I don't know,it puts story in the glass.
Yeah, totally.
(08:52):
You've got this F1 track and you'vegone on board a crawl of sports.
It'll be all right.
Then so what happens?
Do you give the guys a couple of glassesand say which one is closest
to what you're trying to do?Or is it-Was there trial and errors?
Yeah, definitely.A hundred %.
We would just…
It'll be just a conversation, justusing whatever glassware they have.
(09:16):
But just they would talk about it and wewould note or we would note after
and then send over prototypes,potentially, or we would go over
with prototypes, or we would…
Yeah, there's a A bunch ofdifferent things that we've done.
Then there were tests.
We do, I can't remember, thermo-satingPLA, which is a 3D printing plastic.
(09:40):
Then we just test out of that.
We should be able to dominate everythingelse in the market in the plastic.
Then we go to lead-free crystal,hand-blown, and it's just untouchable.
Because that's the other thing I said.
These glasses are all hand-blown.
They're all handmade.
It was this spec.
It was this spec forour family and friends.
It wasn't meant to be forThat's why- So there's every
(10:03):
single glass still hand-blown?Yeah.
That's amazing.
I didn't think this wasever going to make money.
I didn't think this was a business.
I had a great job at the time, and so didLaila, and this was a Christmas
present, and that was meant to be it.A hundred glasses done.
No parking at Chatson.
A Christmas present that became…
(10:24):
How many do you have in your range?
Bourbon, whiskey, and thenyou've done the wine one?
Yeah, bourbon, whiskey, gin, agave,beer, wine, and the Traveller.
Yeah.Amazing.
Yeah.That's so cool.
I remember when we first unboxed them,Dave was very nervous because at the
(10:45):
beginning and end of each of our episodes,we do quite the ting when we cheers.
He's just like, Are they going tobe okay to do a really good ting?
There should be a strong ting.
There's a great ting.
Mate, there's a great- Iwasn't really surprised.
For joining us.This is great.
A fun experiment.
If people want to get their hands on theglasses, they just jump
on the website, right?Yeah, jump on the website, denveralali.
(11:06):
Com.Easy.
You can go through there or we have240 something, 44 retailers worldwide now.
Amazing.
So you can rock into someplace.
Wait, I was wrapping up, but I'vegot one more thing I want to…
Because you've told me that the brief forthose guys in Kentucky and Tennessee who
you went to and said, Hey,can you help us with a glass?
Is that you wanted to try to get…
You wanted to help them or you wanted tocreate a glass that would taste the most
(11:29):
like what they were trying to achieve.
That's one of my favouritethings about this is that when…
Sometimes you drink a vermin, you'relike, This is delicious, but I wonder how…
The person who made it.Dan McKee.
Yeah, would want to taste it, definitely.
They can control everything.
They put in so much effort and so muchinvestment into controlling
everything that goes into that bottle.
(11:50):
But that final last step, when someonejust consumes their liquid, they
don't consume it out of the bottle.
How come they didn't havebetter control of that?
I think they understood that gap.Yeah.
Seeing them side by side makes you…
It still blows my mind that ittastes so different.
The drinking experience is amazingin both, and they're both different.
(12:11):
They feel like this is areally fun It's almost…
I don't want to undersell it, but italmost makes the bourbon more
sessionable or something.It feels like it's more of a friendly hug.
The whiskey glass…Sorry, that's the bourbon glass.
The whiskey glass feels likeit's more of a delicate…
It's a scalpel.We're back here.
So good.Hey, thanks for coming on, Demet.
(12:33):
Cheers.Cheers.
Cheers.
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!