Groomed into Marriage and a Cult

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hi and welcome back to Beyond the Monsters.
Today I have Holly Buss with me.
This is the first time she is telling her story and we're here to listen.
Let's dive right into it.
I swear I'll be turning inside out, up inside out

(00:27):
Well, thank you.
Thank you for inviting me.
I'll just start when the story starts.
I was a 16 year old homeschool girl, pretty sheltered and already isolated from normalsociety, you could say.

(00:47):
Sometimes that benefits people, sometimes it does not.
Mm-hmm, right.
In my situation, it did leave me very vulnerable, naive, impressionable.
In spite of that, I was 16, kind of punky.
I was super into the emo scene music crowd.

(01:08):
I was kind of normal that way and that I was just enjoying my teenage years.
I didn't know what I wanted to do after I graduated high school.
I was probably going to go to college.
I didn't know what for.
You know, I was just more worried about.
listening to my music with my friends.
Well I was in a home school tutorial and we met twice a week.
Okay, so you went to a school.

(01:31):
Yes, it's not officially they call it a tutorial or a co-op.
OK, go take classes twice a week.
You take your homework home.
You do it all throughout the work week, but you are accountable to teachers that areemployed at the tutorial.
On paper, like when my mother reported to the state, we were considered homeschoolstudents.

(01:52):
We were under an umbrella homeschool group.
But anyways, it was a Christian based tutorial and at at that.
There was a class there, was a Christian worldview and apologetics class that I took onFridays.
And there was a substitute teacher there the first time I met him.
I was 16, like I said.

(02:13):
And I didn't know this at the time, but that's truly when my life began to end.
And he was paying very careful attention to me.
He was teaching the entire class a very conservative, patriarchal worldview.

(02:35):
But in particular, he focused it more like on me.
When I was 17, so the next school year, I was in that class again.
It's not because I was held back, it was just a higher grade.
You could take that class, you know.

(02:57):
at different grade levels.
But at 17 is when he got to know my family.
He got close with my mom and my friends and their parents.
So take us back to 16, what during that year, what was going on that seemed a littledifferent about this guy towards you?
Well at the time I didn't know looking back I can see that Maybe it's just because he hadthe opportunity he was not like an official teacher I think this was the first time he had

(03:28):
the opportunity to teach a class and There were young females in the class and hisworldview is patriarchal specifically Reformed Christian patriarchal and that worldview
relies on the subjugation of the female species
Men are to dominate the world for Christ and therefore bringing his return.

(03:52):
Like once they've conquered the world for Christ, they believe Jesus will come back.
And part of that is subduing women as their subservience.
They don't use that language necessarily, although they do use submission.
But a woman's highest calling is how they present it.
That's much more appealing than subservience.

(04:12):
Your highest calling is to submit to the male authority figures in your life, whether it'syour father, who then approves your husband, approves of your husband, and then it's the
church elders.
And the more children you bring into the world for your husband, the more productive youare as a wife, and therefore you have greater holiness.

(04:34):
So, and if a woman steps out of that, if she challenges the male authority figure, if shesays,
I'm not happy.
I've had too much.
I'm overworked.
What about my interests?
That's literally a threat to their male authority structure.
So it's the biggest threat to their world.

(04:56):
So if a woman was trying to be themselves in any way that, wow, you are like rebelling.
Yes.
Rebellious.
worldly, selfish, because why wouldn't you want to bring more children into the world?
OK, it must be because you have selfish motives.

(05:16):
So they they heap a lot of religious guilt and shame on any sign of nonconformity withtheir male patriarchal worldview.
I didn't know at the time.
Sure, you're so-
I was mentally and religiously being taught.

(05:38):
again, they use much more like appealing language, you know, well, men are to love theirwife, their wife as Christ loves the church and they make it very grand sounding.
that in fact, those teachings caused me I had a boyfriend at the time, like a high schoolsweetheart.
OK, but because of the class, because of his teachings, I ended up breaking up with him.

(06:04):
because I was like, can't be in a casual dating relationship anymore.
I need to save myself for marriage.
It's my highest calling and I want to stay pure for my husband because also your value isdetermined by your purity, sexual purity, as they say.
So I began kind of adopt, I don't wanna say that I adopted them as my own because youcan't do that.

(06:30):
when you're being coerced into it, the threat of hell is a very convincing coerciontactic.
Right.
So this is where we would call it grooming, right?
They started grooming you.
Right.
Okay.
when I was 17 it became more of the more religious grooming but he began to push into mysocial circles so it just went from I saw him at class I view I taught I talked to him as

(07:05):
mr.
such-and-such and that was that like I really that was the entire relationship
Very normal, just didn't think about him.
He was 22 years older than me.
I never thought of him in any other way than just Mr.
So-and-so who teaches that class or substitute taught the class.

(07:30):
But he pushed himself into my social circles.
He got to know my friends.
He got to know my mom and her friends.
How did he do this?
He's very short.
Okay.
yeah, he's funny.
He does have a very quick sense of humor.
He's charming and he will study you to learn what your preferences are.

(07:53):
He studies you and he gets to know you to know how to manipulate you.
So he didn't just do that to me.
He did it to my like my social circles as well.
And then he first approached my mom with this idea of
potentially starting a courtship with me.
And you know, that's the phrase that they use.

(08:15):
They always have to baptize their language, you know.
So courtship and he made all these grand promises of providing stability and you know,financial security, love as Christ loves the church, you know, and he was promising all
those things.
And every single time anyone came up with the concern about the age gap,

(08:40):
He would say, well, know, age is just a number and society values things that the Bibledoesn't value.
Mary was probably 13 or 14 when she was pregnant with Jesus.
If you look through history, church fathers of our faith married wives that are 20 yearsyounger, 15 years younger, Martin Luther did.

(09:04):
So many fathers of our faith.
He had all the right answers to everything.
every single time and he would exhaust you with those explanations.
he's going to your mom and talking about this, you know nothing at this point, like thatthat's being talked about.

(09:27):
How do you find out that they're having these conversations?
He's having these conversations with me without actually mentioning me.
Like he's he's religiously grooming me and all of that.
So that by the time he approached my mom, I was already pretty damn brainwashed.

(09:48):
And so then when my mom said, hey, you know, Mr.
So-and-so brought this up and I was going to talk to you about it, we were both prettybrainwashed.
I personally don't fault my mom.
I think that there was similar naivete that I had that I care
And that's probably all she knew if you guys were so involved with the church.

(10:12):
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
a lot of religious background.
Right.
That laid the groundwork for him.
So.
Anyways, at first I was just like, what?
Right.
What?
But then again, he would go back to the Bible and he was so good at when you brought up aconcern, he would validate it.
I know.

(10:32):
This is so strange in today's world.
If you it's weird.
And when people have that gut reaction, I get it.
I get it.
It's so bizarre.
So he would validate your concerns and then explain them away.
And then he'd crack a joke or two along the way.
And he'd be like, take your time to just think it through.
You know, he's...

(10:53):
Making you think, oh, it's your idea too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Given that pause and wow.
That's how it came about.
So we officially declared our courtship when I was 17 and he was 39.
And mom and dad at this point have to give their blessing or.

(11:13):
My did, my dad was not in the picture.
I didn't have a relationship with him.
My parents were divorced.
That also laid a lot of groundwork too, as far as leaving me feeling vulnerable.
Absolutely, that's just what happens in those situations.
That also left my mom pretty vulnerable.
sure.
And you were probably even looking maybe at him.

(11:34):
I could be wrong as like a father figure.
subconsciously I was I wasn't trying I wasn't consciously doing that but trauma has a wayof coming out in your subconscious mind you have these needs that you don't know you have
yes you know yes so yeah absolutely though I wasn't aware of it yeah you know and beforeyes and before him I'm the my boyfriend I had before that was my age

(12:07):
Like I never had a thing for older people.
Like it never even occurred to me.
You know, I had a fun, like it was, he was a great boyfriend, super sweet, respectful.
We had a fun relationship.
And yeah, we were the same age.
There was no, I didn't ever, and like I.
were being a normal teenager then.

(12:27):
Yeah.
I Mr.
So-and-so for the first time.
It never occurred to me.
Like it was just not even on the radar at all.
So anyways, we began courting when I was 17, September.
I turned 18 in December.
What does that courting look like at 17?

(12:49):
What kind of things did you guys do together?
Was it like, even when you come back?
read the Bible together.
We would pray together.
We would do all the religious things together.
We were visiting churches together.
just all of that, you know.
So not really normal teenage couple.

(13:12):
is nothing normal about it.
Okay.
Do you remember ever thinking like, what's going on here?
Or you were already so.
no, I during the courtship and then so we started courting in September.
I turned 18 in December.
January was when he proposed.
So this is moving fast.
That's the other thing.

(13:33):
There's a lot of pressure to move it fast from him.
He was like, we got to get this done if we know we belong together, if we know this is theLord's will.
Why wait?
So there's a lot of pressure to make it happen fast.
There were moments along the way when I truly questioned myself.
if I was doing the right thing to the point where I would break down in a panic.

(13:55):
There was one time I talked to him when we were engaged and I said, I don't know.
I feel like when I say things you don't listen and I feel like you dismiss a lot of myconcerns.
And he has a way of explaining you right out of your own feelings and thoughts.
Right.

(14:16):
And so there was that moment when I really, really questioned myself, but I was soinvested at this point that I just kept going, hoping it would, believing it would get
better because this is a strong Christian man.
Yes.
So.
And this is what you were taught.

(14:40):
Sorry, I know I keep like doing my little interruptions.
I'm just trying to like get the full picture and so everybody else can know exactly whatthe heck is going on.
grooming is it's so hard it's unless you've gone through it it's hard to understand rightit's hard to understand how someone can strip you of your agency so thoroughly

(15:06):
Absolutely.
Like outsiders looking in would be like, well, why didn't she know better?
Why didn't her mom know better?
did exactly that's not the reality you were you were in at that point.
There was no knowing better.
Right.
And there was never just one moment when I was groomed.
Grooming is the death of a thousand cut.

(15:26):
They're little things that stack up and paint a picture before you know what's happening.
and one day you look around and your head's almost under the water.
So that's what grooming is.
And it is hard for people to understand, because it's like, well, didn't you see the redflags?
Yes, I did.
And I brought them up and I was concerned.

(15:46):
And he had 1,000 explanations for every damn red flag he had.
You knew exactly what to say and what to do.
Yes.
So then after I turned 18, well actually it was two weeks after I graduated high school wegot married.

(16:08):
And my signature on that marriage certificate was the bolt on my door.
It sealed the deal.
Now
By state definition, I was 18 and I was an adult.
But I wasn't.
Because that's what grooming does to you.

(16:29):
It stunts you.
It keeps you vulnerable.
So even though I was growing in years mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, no.
I was just as vulnerable as I was at 16.
Right so you were right where he wanted you to be
And that's the other thing when you think of like, oh, well, she was 18, she consented toit.

(16:52):
The necessary component for consent is that you have all the facts in front of you.
Over the span of our 10 year marriage, I learned so much that he never told me.
He intentionally withheld a lot of information about his life that had I known.
I know I would not have chosen that.
Of course

(17:13):
information you're removing someone's right to consent right so no I did not consent I didnot have all the fat but anyways once you sign that marriage certificate it's it's over
it's over not only do you have the I call it legal shackles

(17:36):
But then for me, I had also, which were much stronger, the religious shackles of God hatesdivorce.
And there's never a reason for divorce.
He taught something called the permanency view of marriage, which says, even if yourspouse is abusing you, you are allowed to separate if you're in like, if you're being

(17:58):
physically harmed, but you can't divorce.
Marriage is forever.
And you should just hope and pray and have faith that God will work things out and alwaysgive the opportunity for change to happen.
That's why you don't get divorced.
So yeah, it really, that religious grooming was more powerful, more secure.

(18:19):
was more of a dungeon than even a legal document.
So we got married on our honeymoon.
I knew right away that the person who convinced me
to marry him was not the person I married.
It was like his work was done.

(18:39):
He was a totally different person on our honeymoon and I fell into severe depression.
I knew I had made a horrible mistake but it.
of behaviors did you see like the switch that change in him, if you can recall some ofthem?
yeah, most...
He went from lavishing me with attention to not even wanting to acknowledge me as aperson.

(19:08):
fast.
He's a workaholic, he loves games, he just shut down.
And all of sudden I knew I had no emotional or mental access to him.
He was cold, he wasn't mean.
mean as in like he didn't yell he didn't physically threaten me or harm me that way butthe shutdown the coldness the

(19:35):
Which is complete mental abuse.
Spiritual and emotional.
mean, it's you know, it's a wound that you can't see, but it goes far deeper than aphysical wound ever.
And you can't really verbalize it too well because you it's hard to verbalize it.

(19:55):
And it also creates a situation where you think, what did I do wrong?
So you're struggling with trying to figure out what you did wrong to cause.
you've been brainwashed this whole time.
This is what I'm supposed to do.
This is how I'm supposed to live.
you're...
You think you're just doing what you're supposed to be doing.

(20:15):
Yeah.
You must have felt so like just so alone.
It was incredibly lonely because by marrying him I sacrificed friendships and familybecause a lot of people did have lot of concerns.
A lot of people tried to talk to me but by the time we went public with our courtship thebrainwashing was done.
And he also, part of the brainwashing, is causing me to doubt my friends and familybecause they don't have true Christian faith like we have.

(20:43):
They're being influenced by the world.
So he's spreaded those seeds of doubt, nourished that soil.
And by the time anyone could set the alarm, I was gone.
That's the way it goes a lot of times.
And any abusive relationships, they do keep you from your friends, keep you from yourfamilies.

(21:04):
They're the ones with the problem.
It's just a vicious cycle.
So I lost a lot and then we got married and it was incredibly lonely.
Incredibly, we had one car.
I never left the house.
When he went to work, just, I didn't go anywhere.
I was just at home alone.

(21:27):
Were you not allowed to work?
Like, was that a thing?
OK.
I was not to work outside the home.
I was to be a homemaker and raise kids, which I did.
In fact, I have five of them.
Okay.
So when did when did that start where you're like, okay, now I have to have kids with thisguy, right?

(21:50):
Our first was more nine months and three weeks after our marriage.
So right away.
Now I want to say this after marriage and after the honeymoon, I fell into such severedepression that for me, and this is pretty vulnerable to say, I thought that death was my

(22:10):
only escape.
And I used to fantasize about it.
But the problem with that was if I actually committed the act, then I would go to hell.
It's apparently a scarier place than the one I was already in or so I was taught.
So talk about a prison.

(22:32):
There's truly no escape.
And it's a mental and religious and spiritual prison.
Mm-hmm.
And so, but I got pregnant right away and that baby pretty much saved my life.
Cause I knew nothing was gonna harm that baby.
I would not let myself harm that baby ever.
And so I just proceeded to have a child about every two years.

(22:56):
That's just how it happened.
Cause you weren't to practice any sort of conception control or anything like that.
You were to always.
bring children into your life.
And if you didn't have the financial resources to support them, then you should just trustand have faith in God that he will provide.
If you're tired, have faith, he will provide.
If you're overwhelmed, maybe you're being selfish, or maybe you lack faith that God'sgonna get you through this.

(23:23):
But children are a blessing from the Lord, therefore you should have as many as youpossibly can.
And even the act of conceiving for you is probably disgusting.
Disgusting.
this point.
Disgusting.
Yeah.
Awful.
Awful.
So, I lived like that for ten years.
Did you concentrate like I'm trying to just like picture all this like do it's it's justhorrific.

(23:50):
Did you just like put in your head to concentrate on your kids.
Is that what kept you going.
Yes.
Yeah.
100 % and they were worth every bit of effort and they still are.
Because none of this is their fault.
It's not like they asked to be born in this situation.
They didn't.
Their life circumstances aren't what they are.

(24:14):
And I was a kid when it started too.
I really was a child having children.
But part of this whole
grooming is you are to present yourself as a happy, lovely, hard-working, faithful wifewho

(24:35):
trusts in her husband's leadership and authority, so you better smile.
So nobody knew how tired I was.
In fact, I was afraid to admit to myself how tired and overwhelmed and unhappy andmiserable I was.
I would deny it because I thought it was just selfishness rising up in me or laziness orsomething like that.
So it was not only a battle that the entire...

(25:01):
Worldview was heaping on my shoulders, but it was also a battle within myself.
And so it was a vicious cycle of always picking myself up, showing up, doing the work,smiling, and then eventually crashing hard.
And it just kept repeating itself.
And I'd have these moments when the pain would be so unbearable that I couldn't deny itanymore.

(25:24):
And I would break apart.
And I would try to talk to him about it.
I remember after baby number four, I spent about
weeks trying to convince him we should not have any more kids, at least for a while.
And it was fruitless.
What would he say?
What was his response to that?
At that point, non-response.

(25:46):
He would just glaze over.
His eyes would just glaze over.
So like truly deaf ears, you're just begging and pleading.
truly deaf.
The coldness and vacancy that would fill his eyes whenever I did something that made himunhappy was overwhelming and terrifying.

(26:06):
It's very terrifying to face something so cold and vacant.
Like there's just no one there.
There's a body there, but there's no one there.
Whoever lived in this body must have died a long time ago because there's no damn soul inthis person.
And no matter what I do to try to find that soul, it's not there.

(26:31):
throughout this time?
Well, Some of my friends were part of a church that we attended for seven years.
And they were just as brainwashed as I was.
It's a cult-like church in existence.
you know, the same.
I was in the cult of my ex.

(26:52):
Like, I was in his little personal cult.
I was his faithful subservient who smiled.
Mm-hmm.
but then I was also a member of a cult and it's the same thing, the same manipulation,gaslighting, the same intimidation, the same religious intimidation and the threats of
hell and, being labeled rebellious and outcast from your friend group and all thosethings.

(27:14):
And then when you are in conformity, the way they bring you in and just lavish on theapproval.
It's the same thing, same tactics, same manipulations.
And that's why we were there is because that's a comfortable environment for someone likemy ex to be in.
Right.
How was he with the children?
During the marriage, he was just emotionally absent from the children.

(27:39):
I did everything.
I raised the kids.
I gave birth to them.
I cared for them.
I did everything.
I homeschooled them as I was supposed to do.
He worked.
And when he wasn't at his day job, he was working on his websites and he was trying tobuild a social media presence to promote his worldview.

(28:01):
as well.
Like he wrote books and has a blog and all that stuff.
Scary.
Yeah.
And so that's what he would do.
And
I remember I could count on one hand how many times he took the boys out to play ball ortoss a football.

(28:25):
I could count that on one hand.
Were they allowed to play sports or be involved in anything?
No, they went to church and then they stayed home.
I would do play dates with other church friends and their kids.
But that was pretty much their social life.
So you're probably dealing with everything inside your own head.

(28:49):
And then now you have your children that you're like, look what they're going through.
Yes.
Wow.
So I give you so much credit.
I just the fact that you are still here and you know, because most people that wouldn'tmake you crack, you know, to where?
Yeah.
And like I said, it was a vicious cycle.

(29:11):
I would crack.
I would have moments of absolute breakdown, but then the religious grooming would kick inand I would need to pick myself back up and honor the Lord and smile while I'm doing it.
so it just, the cycle kept going.
then in 2021, my ex had a dust up with the elders of the church we were at.

(29:36):
over a financial agreement that they had verbalized.
And I still will never know to this day what actually happened.
Okay.
But a rift happened and we left the church.
The same month.
The same month we left the church, my mother died of cancer.
She was my support.
Like she would babysit for me.
She was there for the birth.

(29:57):
She was everything a mom and a grandmother should be perfect, wonderful.
Just, you know, she was my safe place that way.
Now, I never told her how miserable the marriage was.
I never told her about the problems.
Literally never.
I never said a word to her.

(30:18):
Because
For one, you're not supposed to dishonor your husband.
And two, I really did not want to disappoint her because if I had told her, she would havehad to face that she was lied to and fooled just as much as I was.
And so I never said a word to her and she died.
And she doesn't know now that I'm single.

(30:38):
Right, right.
Like nothing.
And so she passed away.
We left the church all in October of 2021.
We were actually living on the church property, which is pretty crazy.
We were right next door to the elders, our homes connected with the sidewalk.
We moved out.
And so we moved in February of 2022.

(31:00):
I got my hand on a book called The Body Keeps the Score.
I don't know if you've read it.
I thought so.
And that's really what
broke broke me from the religious grooming.
That's what made me feel like, okay, these cracks I'm having this vicious cycle is real.
The trauma is real and that's what really just changed the game for me.

(31:27):
So I read that in February of 2022.
I did try to have conversations with him about like, hopefully somehow trying to
fix our relationship, though you can't fix something that was never good to begin with.
But the reality of divorce is hard to face.

(31:47):
And you would rather do anything than that.
They raised five kids.
And I didn't have work experience.
All the things and all the changes that would have to happen, it's kind of like lastresumed.
And so much unknown and you've lost your support person.
Yes.
So those conversations though confirmed to me that everything I had felt and thought waseven more real than I realized because those conversations went so bad.

(32:15):
So bad.
So
Like give us an example if you don't mind.
like when you're talking to him and trying to plead with him and you know you're askinghim for change.
Was it.
There.
That he would give you.
Right.
If anybody does that.

(32:35):
Yeah.
It's hard to explain, like when someone just checks out and they're just.
And it's such a vacant coldness, their dead eyes, there's just nothing there becauseyou're showing vulnerability and pain and they don't know how to handle that.
So they check out.
They can't face their own vulnerability and pain.
they sure as hell can't face yours.

(32:57):
And so then the thing that really changed was I started.
highlighting his actions, hey, you're doing X, Y, Z, but you say this and it's notmatching up.
That's when the problem started.
That's when he went from just kind of like, you know, he would never like call me a bitchor anything like that.

(33:22):
Like he was never, he never screamed.
He did not have any alcohol issues.
You know, when you think of abuser, you kind of have this image in your head of like a manwho's out of control and swinging fish.
Not him.
Not him, and I've never claimed otherwise.
But that's when he really started calling me crazy.
That was the first time he started calling me crazy.

(33:45):
Like, how dare you question him or tell him anything?
Or it wasn't even that, he would just be like, that's crazy.
all calm like that?
Very calm.
His voice was so controlled.
Controlled and cold.
It's almost like it would have made more sense if he was like irrational or like yelling alittle.

(34:09):
creepy.
Very calm and cold.
And the disbelief of...
What are you talking about?
Holly, that's crazy.
Where did you get those ideas?
major gas lighting.
Yeah, like he would never yell.
It was always that way.

(34:31):
And so it's unnerving.
It's hard to explain how unnerving it is.
But anyways, I started secretly planning a way out.
I remember the first time I called an attorney, I was in my closet, literally having abreakdown was I was trying because I had never done anything like this before.

(34:51):
the overwhelmed, the shaking, my body's reacting uncontrollably, but I actually called itan attorney.
And I hired her and I, you know, I filed for divorce in October of 2022 and nothing,
How did you hire her though?
how did you get access to like money or?

(35:15):
Okay.
had help.
You know, I, I contacted a few different abuse organizations and hotlines.
I had a good friend that I could confide in.
I had two good friends that I confided in and between the ministries and my friends, wewere able to make this happen where I could retain an attorney.

(35:39):
So because he was never
overtly physically or verbally abusive to the children.
He was fine.
He was, you know, pretty emotionally absent.
But once in a while we had a family game night.
He did love watching movies.
He's a big movie gamer guy.
So as long as the kids could do that with him, you know.

(36:01):
So I filed for 50-50 custody thinking, you know what, maybe he'll step up and actuallyconnect with the kids.
because he's being forced to now that he's gonna be parenting them 50-50.
And that gives me time to go to school, because I've gotta get in the workplace.
And I have no idea what even I'm gonna do.
I did secure a job at a daycare where I was gonna be a first grade teacher.

(36:25):
So the kids were gonna attend there and I was gonna work there offering me discounts.
It was like this amazing situation I was able to filed for 50-50 custody.
And nothing in heaven above or hell below could have prepared me for how he responded.
The first thing he did, because me and the kids left the house and then he was served thedivorce papers just because I didn't know how that was going to go.

(36:50):
The first thing he did was drain the bank account.
He didn't even call me.
He drained the bank account.
Yes, and money is his God.
He doesn't say that, but money is his God.
And then we came back home the next day and it
became the narrative shifted.
Children, your mother is dangerous.

(37:12):
no.
He's lost her mind.
You're going to live with me now and your lives are going to be better once she's gone.
And he stopped calling me mom and he started calling me by my first name to the kids andhe started buying them every fucking thing they wanted.
He would buy my daughter sushi every night, chocolate snacking, names, movies, secondNintendo Switch, just lavishing on the attention he had deprived them of.

(37:40):
their entire lives.
for children, it's like, my gosh, I have a dad.
Yeah, look how cool he is and he gets us all these things.
And the kids are young.
Very young.
Very, my oldest is 11.
So at this time she was nine.
And I was breastfeeding full time.

(38:01):
And that's what happened.
it became, he would make intentional, because we were still living in the same household.
I didn't have the resources I needed to move out before filing.
Right.
I couldn't move out.
was going to have like two to four months where I would start work, the children wouldstart school and I could find a place to go.

(38:23):
Like I needed a transitional period.
And he used that time to make life hell.
He would make mass messes around the house and then just be like, so when are you going toclean that up?
In front of the kids too.
everything was in front of the kids.
Everything.
You're lazy.

(38:43):
It was awful.
We had holidays because I filed in October Thanksgiving Day.
I made a turkey at home.
We were supposed to go to family, we got the flu, so we had to stay and just have itthere.
So I was cooking the turkey and he was like, he made some sides and he was like, children,I made these sides.

(39:03):
We're going to and we had two tables and I was just setting the table where we always haddinner.
No, and he took everything and put it on the formal dining room table.
And then it was like, kids, I'm taking over your education.
I'm going to homeschool you now.
And we're starting math today, Thanksgiving Day.
And I'm like, like everything he could to stress us out.

(39:27):
It sounds like he was starting to lose it.
Like lose control of even himself at this point.
Yeah.
And it kept going that way to where I was just trying to get out of the house.
It was, the intentional sleep deprivation.
He would keep the kids up late.

(39:48):
Bedtime routines were gone.
And every time I told the children something, he was behind them saying, don't do that.
So he was training them to disregard me as a parent.
Yes.
Training them to view me with the disgust that he has.
and my children became people I didn't even know anymore.
And that right there is by far the hardest thing.

(40:09):
It was like I was watching them die too.
the back talking, they started treating me as they, as he treated me.
And in turn, he would just lavish on the approval and the, yes, he took all of our weddingphotos off the wall.
Every photo of mom in the house, he took down and replaced the photos of him and the kids.

(40:33):
And he decked out their bedrooms.
He bought them posters, blankets, new bedding, everything, the superhero bedding, youknow, and meanwhile, I can't buy face cream.
because I have no access to our money.
And I would ask him to get some of the stuff at the stores.
He know you have to get that.
I'll buy groceries, but if you need anything, you just have to get it.

(40:53):
We had a single vehicle that he kept the keys in his pocket.
I couldn't use it without his very, it was a living hell.
That proceeded, I lived like that from October to December 9th.
It's just mind-blowing too.
It's just how impressionable kids are too and it's not their fault but how quickly he wasable to do this.

(41:19):
No, it's just so scary.
So after Thanksgiving, things took a turn for the worse.
The police were in our home with like five times within two weeks.
And every time they would come, I would explain, this is what's happening.

(41:40):
Is he hitting me?
No, I have no damn bruises to show, but let me tell you what is going on.
Right.
Well, ma'am, the courts haven't decided you both have full legal custody.
Like there's nothing we can do.
And there's not.
It's not there.
That's not their fault.
Legally, there's nothing they can do.
It kept getting worse and worse and worse to where I was not sleeping at all.
He was keeping the kids up till 3 a.m.

(42:02):
Sometimes I ended up a ministry sent out a lady to stay with me and she witnessed thepsychotic behaviors and she was like.
So he didn't care that she was there.
Oh, he did.
When she came over, she was like, hi.
And I said, hi, my friend's coming over just to stay with me.
Because at this point, I'm scared of two things.

(42:27):
And I talked about this with the domestic abuse ministries that I had contact with.
He's never physically harmed me.
But his behaviors are getting so erratic that when he crosses the line, I'm afraid he'sgoing to go all the way.
Because he's smart enough to know that when he crosses the line,
Law can do something.
So if he's going to do it, he's going to go big.

(42:48):
That's why he hasn't harmed me because he studies the law to get around it, to cause harmsin ways that won't get him in trouble.
Right.
That's why he never hit me.
So plus you, you put that on top of the sleep deprivation.
I'm breastfeeding a baby.
have five kids.

(43:08):
He'll come and cause all the chaos and then go work in his office.
And I'm left with the pieces of it.
and the messes he used to leave around the house.
I had no secure sleeping arrangements.
I was sleeping on the couch with the baby.
And things got very concerning between him and my oldest.

(43:31):
And so the night he insisted she sleep with him in his room was the first time I calledthe cops.
And I said, just let the child sleep in her bed and let her go to bed at her bedtime.
Stop keeping her up till 12, 1, 2 o'clock.
Stop.
And he just would not.
And the entire time, through every single interaction, he maintained the calm, cold voice.

(43:55):
Never raised his voice.
So.
On December 9th, I had not only the woman who came to stay with me to offer support, buttwo other men came because it was getting so volatile and concerning.
And so they came and of course he had a cow, but legally I said, I'm inviting friendsover.

(44:20):
And that's when his behavior became the most erratic.
I can't believe he still showed his ass.
absolutely.
people there.
absolutely.
Absolutely he did.
And that makes it more scary because now he could just snap.
Right.
Although he, there was times like he, my, my friend, the gentleman who came had a backpackwith a little laptop in it and he set it on the chair and my ex threw it on the floor.

(44:49):
He was walking by my friend on the Heidi.
He was walking by Heidi in the kitchen and he, know,
like checked her.
like shoved her as walking by, but not like making it look like it was an accident.
Nobody accidentally does it like that.
So that night just got worse and worse and worse to the point where about 3.30 a.m.

(45:15):
I call the cops.
At this point, I'm recording and videoing everything I can.
I see on his computer screen text history between me and him open in Photoshop, which Idocumented.
The kids are still up.
It's 3 a.m.
He's blasting music He's took he took all their mattresses from their beds and broughtthem into his room Telling them that they're strangers in the house and they're dangerous

(45:39):
people that my kids have met these people before and so
And the kids are probably bleeding.
mean.
Yes.
Meanwhile, he's got a toy stash in his closet that he's just, it's like Christmas.
It's like Christmas.
And that's how he keeps the kids in his room.
Sure.
Let's watch TV.
Here are new toys.

(46:00):
Here's candy.
Here's.
yeah.
Let's build forts, you know?
And so it was that night was awful.
It was awful.
So what did the police say?
When the cops got there that time at this point it was probably the sixth time police wereat my home and that night they said ma'am it's got to stop I want you to go to the

(46:20):
magistrates office tonight and file for an order of protection.
Just do it.
So me and Heidi left.
We went to Williamson County magistrates office I filed for an ex parte and it wasgranted.
We go back to the house the share the
immediate like an immediate emergency.

(46:41):
Okay.
The police walk in, they have him sit at the kitchen table, and they told him, do not saya word.
You may not speak.
And I was instructed to go get all the children, load them up in the van and leave.
Part of this was I explained to the police, like, I have nowhere to go but this ministrythat is with me.

(47:03):
they were with me that night.
They have a safe house in Alabama.
I'm not to take the kids out of a 50 mile radius, right?
because I had filed for divorce.
But I explained to the officers, I said, have no, these kids, me, we have nowhere else togo.
There is a safe house in Alabama.
Do I have your permission to go to Alabama?

(47:24):
It's outside of the 50 mile radius, but I want your permission before I go.
And they granted it.
I have it in writing.
And I said, thank you so much, sir.
The car seats are in the van.
He has those van keys in his pocket.
I can't get the keys.
Can you get them?
So yes, when they detained him at the table,
He made him give up the keys and I got those kids out.

(47:44):
I grabbed whatever shoes and clothes I could find.
And we left to Alabama, which I'd never lived there before.
I don't know, outside of two people.
I know no one.
So we crash landed at a safe house in Alabama with nothing to our names other than the vanand some shoes and clothes.
What did you feel like though?

(48:05):
night when we got-
The drive down is a two hour drive.
The relief was overwhelming.
I mean, I just sat there and bawled my eyes out because I had finally got out of thathellhole, that chaotic environment where you can't even take your shoes off because you're
afraid something's going to happen.
You can't sleep.

(48:25):
You can't function.
And you're also caring for five children.
Right.
And so.
The relief was immense.
Like, I couldn't really think of anything.
I couldn't.
You could breathe.
My body was overwhelmed with relief.
My brain was like, you know, right.
Right.
So, yeah, we that's when we me and the kids moved to Alabama.

(48:48):
Then so he actually.
you you know what I didn't think of did you even have a phone a cell phone or?
I did have a phone on his phone plan.
There was always the concern that he could read my text messages, but I called Verizon andI think he could see the numbers on my phone, but he see content.

(49:09):
Yes, me too.
He did, you know, drain the bank account.
rerouted his direct deposit to go to a new account I had no access to.
So the ministry very graciously supported me through that time.
So I filed for divorce in October, you he had 30 days to file an answer.
So he did, he filed an answer and a counter complaint.

(49:30):
And in his counter complaint, he was asking that he be the primary parent, raise them fulltime.
He wanted to homeschool them while he maintained his full time job.
And I, because I'm so crazy and a threat to their safety should only have very limitedsupervised parenting time.

(49:51):
I'm the one who raised those kids.
So this began, he began a legal attack that took me two years to get through.
Numerous court dates, expert witnesses, the cost.
I had no money.

(50:11):
The cost of that alone almost drowned me, had it not been for amazing people in my life.
I would not be here.
I would have lost those kids because when he claims those things, I didn't have thefinancial resources for representation.
I couldn't hire the expert witnesses, the psychologist and the therapist.

(50:32):
It was just me.
Had other people not come alongside me, I'd have lost that war and I'd have probably lostmy kids.
And that was a loss.
I had already lost a friend community.
I lost my mom.
I lost a home household of 10 years, all my belongings.

(50:52):
I'd already lost pretty much damn everything you could lose.
But had I lost my kids, I know right now I would not be here today.
That's just a loss I wasn't going to take.
So anyways, I ended up hiring an attorney who invested his damn heart and soul in my case.
I don't know why, but he went too bad for me.

(51:15):
We got a psychologist involved.
We had therapists involved.
We had numerous court dates, which culminated into a three-day long trial that took placein March of last year.
because he was just fighting it the whole time.
Absolutely.
He was sending DCS to my house.

(51:36):
He was claiming I was abusing the kids.
He even claimed that my friends were abusing the kids.
Anything and everything.
And I mean he was coming up with pretty damn detailed accounts of I was apparently bindingmy children by the wrist and they were bleeding and and I was exchanging them to my

(51:56):
friends for money favors and like he was coming up with insane shit.
and was
court at this point seeing through it.
Well, to a certain degree, because my kids were never taken from me.
If anyone ever believed I was actually doing those things, I remained, they remained in mycare the entire time.

(52:18):
Through the entire legal process, they remained in my care.
When we moved to Alabama, the court gave me permission to enroll them in schools.
So they started public school for the first time and all this upheaval.
Now my homeschool kids are in public school, which is a huge change in Alabama where theyknow nobody.
I'm so thankful for their teachers and their small town school that really loved on them.

(52:40):
They adjusted well from January to April of 2023.
He was having every other weekend visits with them and that was going so poorly that thejudge ended up ceasing those by the end of April and then it
the kids like misbehaving with you at all because they'd go with him and it was that.

(53:04):
It was unbearable.
fact, at trial when I played the audio and video recordings of my children, the court saidthey were horrific.
Horrific.
And that the mental abuse in those audio and videos were horrific.
Horrific displays of mental abuse towards the children is what the court said.

(53:27):
So, but you know, all of this takes time.
Sure.
We had so many hearings because I had filed another emergency motion to cease thosevisitations.
That was heard twice before the judge did.
She did cease the visitations and it became FaceTime calls, recorded FaceTime calls.

(53:48):
And so then we got a psychologist involved.
did, we were working with a therapist.
All of this led up to trial in March of last year and
Thankfully, everything, all of my video and audio, all of the, everything my attorney wasable to put on the table at trial won the case.

(54:12):
We proved the mental and emotional and religious abuse.
We proved it.
The psychologist and the therapist absolutely confirmed, yes, she was groomed at 16.
This is what happened.
We had the expert testimonies.
After they reviewed everything, we had that.
And so throughout this time, I do wanna say like, when we moved to Alabama, the kidsstarted public school.

(54:38):
I got a job at a coffee shop, okay?
My first job, it was fun.
It was just a place for me to clock in, goof off with my teenage coworkers.
Yeah, having normal conversations.
and interact with the outside world.
And my managers ended up being so gracious because of all the court days I had to takeoff, sick days for kids, because I was their only care provider.

(55:02):
I missed so much work.
But they said basically, hey, whatever you needed.
And my coworkers, if they could, they would pick up my shifts for me.
So I'm managing this legal struggle, this legal.
fight with the income of a barista in Decatur, Alabama.
Which isn't much.

(55:23):
Even then I could only work eight to two, because I had to be home after school let out.
So that's how I was living through the entire court proceedings.
These court proceedings are still for divorce.
just starting the children and figuring out a parenting plan.
but anyways.

(55:45):
But you're thinking how does he even get any kind of plan?
Behavior, you know
Well, you know the courts it's very understandable that they want to maximize both Parentsparenting time right because two parents are better than one That's the assumption and
there is truth to that But an abusive parent is no good at all and one healthy parent isbetter Than two parents where one is actively right undermining not only the other parent

(56:17):
But society as a whole, because he was still religiously brainwashing the children, hetold them that their public school teachers hated God and didn't know the Bible.
So he's still trying to isolate the children from normal society.
Dad telling them, so why wouldn't they believe?
He them all Bibles like yeah, so not only was the Alienation from me still happening, butit was it was not only is your mom dangerous, but all of her friends Please be careful

(56:52):
around them and in fact the state of Alabama is not that great and Your public schoolteachers don't know God.
They don't even know the Bible and and then he would tell them that
you know, he's going to homeschool them and they're going to live with him forever.
One time I remember
Are they excited about that sometimes when he says that though?

(57:13):
It's like Candyland.
know, toys, the food, the candy, whatever their hearts desired was there.
And I remember hearing about this after one of their overnight visitations where he drovethem through a very wealthy neighborhood and showed them house big houses within like
in-ground pools and told them he was going to buy one of these houses and that's wherethey would live forever.

(57:38):
And the kids were so excited.
I'm sure.
Yeah.
Yep.
So.
You had to be just walking around devastated inside with every free felt more free, but.
That I can't long as I love my children, he knows exactly how to hurt me.

(57:59):
Right, right.
That's all those children are to him, pawns, because he doesn't know how to relate toanother person.
Abusers don't relate to people.
They control and coerce.
That's why there's that vacancy there in their souls.
There's nothing to relate to.
There is only a hunger for power.

(58:20):
Right.
Strong narcissism going on there.
Yes, in a narcissistic religion as well.
That particular kind of subculture of Christianity he was into, reformed Christianreconstructionism actually, teaches the male dominance, you know, authority structure that

(58:46):
is very ego inflating to the men involved in that religion.
Right.
So
But throughout all this time, I was of course trying to process, well, okay, obviously Icannot sustain myself being a little barista.
There's no job opportunities in the tiny little town I was living in in Moulton.

(59:09):
I was just trying to figure out, what now?
As I was preparing for trial, I realized I really enjoyed the legal side of this process.
I loved strategizing with my attorney.
I loved the work that went into that.
I enjoyed going to court.

(59:30):
I felt very empowered whenever I was at court.
Maybe because you felt like people were listening.
They were listening to you.
I knew that I knew the facts.
I knew the facts of my story better than anyone else in that courtroom.
Right.
No, I don't have the psychological expertise, but I know the facts in the timeline.

(59:51):
Right.
And I can verbalize it and communicate it.
I can explain the patriarchal worldview inside and out and how it leaves women absolutelydefenseless emotionally, spiritually and physically and financially.
100 % defenseless while caring for other vulnerable people.

(01:00:14):
it just, and the whole entire authority structure it is, it relies on the women stayingdown.
Once women stand up, there is no patriarchal authority structure.
There's not.
That's why a strong woman is such a threat.
So I like,

(01:00:35):
I felt just very confident in sitting down with a psychologist or therapist and goingthrough the facts and the timeline and the grooming and the religious ideas.
So I ended up considering the legal field.
anyways, by the time trial came around, I did get a job offer at a firm.

(01:00:57):
I do work now at a firm as a legal assistant.
I have a lot to learn.
I love that.
Well, you're so smart.
Well, I should probably just back up a little bit because at trial...
And I don't know how much of this to share.
And I do need to share because everything I worked so hard for, at the end of the day, nomatter how well I could get on the stand and communicate the facts of the story, no matter

(01:01:32):
what kind, no matter how well I processed everything and was able to show up and care formy children.
If I wasn't able to financially secure legal representation, things would not have endedup how they ended.
Justice absolutely comes with a price.
Justice is served to those with the deepest pockets.

(01:01:57):
That's a fact.
it is.
And you know what?
I think it's, is it 29 in every a thousand sexual abuse perpetrators actually face jailtime?
Do you know why that is?
Because the victims are the ones burdened with making the justice happen, with buying thejustice.
And victims are not in that position.

(01:02:19):
They were just abused, controlled, whatever.
They don't have thousands of dollars to buy the justice they need.
And so a lot of perpetrators walk
free.
My case was just very unique in that I found an attorney who put his heart and soul intoit.

(01:02:42):
And that absolutely saved my children's future.
Not everyone is as blessed or lucky as I am.
At the end of the day, my legal costs alone are astronomical.
That does not include the cost for expert witnesses, the cost of taking time off my littlepaying job to go to court, the cost of childcare for court dates, court reporters.

(01:03:15):
The pursuit of justice is so fucking expensive.
And so,
And when it comes to legal or trials, especially trials, mean, you're charged for everysingle thing, every action that is done during the trial.

(01:03:36):
This attorney speaking to this person or their paralegals or this or that.
I don't think most people wrap their head around how much that can cost.
I did I didn't I had never talked to an attorney before all this so I didn't know likewhat I was doing when I started But I was quickly realizing, know the billable hours and I

(01:03:57):
was like whatever work I can do.
Let me do it I'm not gonna shoot off 20 emails in a week.
Now.
I'm gonna condense it into one You know you learn how to manage the costs right cut downwhere you can Even then it's it's immense but

(01:04:21):
The attorney costs, I don't want to throw any attorneys under the bus because theysacrificed a lot of their life to gain the expertise they have.
Law school is extremely expensive.
The time that law school takes from your life.
Like they made the sacrifice to be able to represent you.
They probably have school loans that are, you know, like there's a lot that goes intobeing able to represent someone.

(01:04:49):
But you just you learn how to navigate the costs.
of it.
don't like I don't think judges are at fault.
I don't think attorneys are at fault.
I don't think any one individual is at fault for how expensive justice is.
Right.
I think they're all trying to navigate a system that was in place before they were evenborn.
Right.
That benefits the rich and starves the poor.

(01:05:11):
And it's not anyone's fault.
You know, of course, there are crooked attorneys.
Shady judges and there are shady.
But
I
any profession, right?
they know i know people are like all attorneys but like i am blessed to know some amazingattorney right

(01:05:31):
who are very empathetic, caring people, who do put their heart and soul into representingyou, and who are very ethical with the way they build their time.
That doesn't mean there aren't attorneys out there who take advantage of extreme lifecircumstances.
That absolutely happens, but women need to be empowered to know how to navigate this.
They need to know how to represent themselves to their attorneys, because when you canwalk into your law office with confidence and say, here's the necessary facts of the

(01:05:59):
story,
this is how they're prioritized.
And just condense your information down.
That's less time the attorney has to do it.
So you do, you learn how to navigate this way in a way that the better you get at usingyour own voice, the more it saves you in, like there's a financial benefit to regaining

(01:06:25):
your agency and your voice.
There is, and I want women to try to like,
grasp that and really understand it and learn how to use that to their financialadvantage.
The more you heal and do your trauma work, you might think therapy is just another bill,but if you can really do your work and grow in your confidence and get your agency back

(01:06:46):
and get your words back, it is going to save you a lot.
And in fact, when you walk into the courtroom, you are going to command respect becauseyou're a confident
woman who yes you were absolutely abused taken advantage of but you know what that's notyour fault because abusers they no one should bear guilt when an abuser crafts their

(01:07:09):
strategy to fit you when they study you to learn just where your vulnerabilities are whenthey you know it's not your fault right that that happens no you weren't naive no you
weren't stupid or dumb and you still aren't stupid or dumb
someone was watching you and created a strategy and knew just where to hit you at theright time.

(01:07:33):
Right.
And knew just when to build you back up.
Yes.
To keep you in.
doesn't have to be your story.
That doesn't have to be the end for you.
You aren't those things.
Exactly.
to know you can get past that.
And I think that's that's what's so hard, I think, for people to realize when they're inthose situations that, I do have a voice.

(01:07:55):
I do have capabilities of certain things because they're beat down like you.
You were beat down to feel like nothing.
For 10 years of my life, it was never safe to use my voice.
Every time I tried to use it, I got the smack down, the religious and mental and emotionalsmack down.
So you learn that your body learns it's not safe to use your voice.

(01:08:19):
And that's when the anxiety and the freezing and the fawning starts to take place.
But you just have to understand that's what your body needed to do to survive thatsituation.
Right.
It was keeping you safe.
You know, we talked just briefly about, you know, how long you had to testify and you wereon the stand for a long time.

(01:08:40):
I hear a lot of people and I did, you know, forensic, psychic addiction for almost 20years.
A lot of victims, survivors.
Their biggest thing for them.
I don't want to testify.
I don't want to go up there and be put in front of everyone.
Like.

(01:09:01):
I'm sure maybe you felt that at first.
Because I definitely like I did have moments of that.
But when I wasn't at court, I was really trying to heal and my confidence on the stand.
And I'm not going to say I just walked up there all confident because I didn't write rightbefore getting on the stand.

(01:09:22):
Absolutely.
I had the shivers, you know, right?
Absolutely.
I was in a.
No, but at the end of the day, I knew that what I was going to say was true.
Right.
And that's where your confidence comes in.
I think that's important for people to know.
You know what you're going to do is get up there and say the truth.
Right.
And the other party is going to get up there and BS their way through it.

(01:09:45):
And you knew that.
He had already been doing that.
100%.
And I also had the documentation.
That's the other thing that victims, when you've been abused, it's not like your brain isjust like functioning at 100%, documenting, remembering, taking clear snapshots.
Hell no.

(01:10:06):
A lot of times your cognitive functions slow because you're in such survival mode thatyour instincts kick in and your actual...
know, strategic type thinking kind of slows down.
And so it's so hard to overcome that, but you can with intentional healing.

(01:10:26):
And I think healing probably is different for everyone and everyone needs to find out whatheals them.
For me, it was music.
I started listening to the music I used to listen to as a teen.
you back.
Yeah.
I forgot a lot of it existed, but Spotify would queue up these songs and I'm like, Iforgot about that song, but I still knew every single word.

(01:10:54):
beauty, nature, anything that feeds your soul is what's going to give you confidence onthe stand.
I think it's important to you know that people know I Don't know sorry you got me allemotional so I can't talk I think it's important that people know Unfortunately in the

(01:11:18):
legal system.
It's all what you can prove You know and you know you can have expert witnesses all thethings but the fact that you Did record some things you made sure you had some ammo there
Hmm.
I think it's so important.
It is.
And people are like, well, if he or she, whatever, if they see it, they're going to flipout.

(01:11:39):
So get that proof.
Send it to someone you trust.
Delete it.
Make sure it's all deleted.
Whatever you have to do to get ammo to protect you in a court of law, think is a big deal.
It's huge.
Yes.
And you're not usually when you're in it, you're not in that.
That's why it's so important.
And I had those people to come alongside me and say documents in it to me and I'll put iton a.

(01:12:03):
Yes.
And so that's what I was doing because I had those people.
I definitely would not be where I am today without my my people.
Absolutely.
And some of my people are strangers.
Right.
There's just something that when you start living in alignment with what you know to betrue, first about yourself and then about your circumstances and environment, something

(01:12:34):
happens and I don't have words for it necessarily.
But it's, you call it good karma, I don't know, but things just start aligning and fallinginto place.
I met exactly who I needed to meet at the right time.
I had strangers who had no idea what I was going through come up and just say the sweetestthings.

(01:12:56):
I don't know why they did that.
For example, there was one time, this is wild, there was one time I had all five kids withme, just crash landed in Alabama.
I was trying to buy groceries and I had all five kids in the store, traumatized kids, youknow.
I'm just trying to get through and get back in the van.

(01:13:20):
I'm at the register and I have about $200 worth of groceries.
My card's declining and my toddler's like, I gotta go pee, I gotta go pee.
And I'm just like.
Right.
I tell the guy at the register, say, just a minute, I know I can fix this.

(01:13:40):
Do you want to hold my driver's license while I figure out why my bank is declining thecard?
Cause I knew that there was a balance.
and so he was like, no, no, you're good.
Just go do your thing with your toddler.
Take care of him and you're good.
Just go.
And so I was like, are you sure?
Here's my ID.
And he's like, no, just go do your thing.
So I go off to the bathrooms and they're doing their thing and I'm checking the bankaccount, trying to figure out what's going on.

(01:14:06):
And he comes back and he goes, here you go, you're good.
And he hands me the receipt.
And I said, you don't have to do that.
I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is.
I can pay for these today.
Like, know you don't have to do that.
Like, that's what I told him.
I said, let me fix it.
He goes, no, I was where you were.
Here you go.
You're good.

(01:14:28):
I've never seen that person since, you know, this is the only time I'll ever see thatperson.
Right.
Just things like that started happening all the time.
I'd be at the playground with the kids sitting on the bench, you know, probably justprocessing everything, trying to figure out, know, I think in this particular instance, my
ex had sent DCS to my house and they had showed up on Good Friday and they were like, sowe have reports of you abusing these children.

(01:14:53):
I need to examine your son's wrists.
Apparently he's got wounds from being
I was like, yeah, come meet me and the kids.
Sorry, there's laundry on the couch, but please come on in.
And so I was reflecting on that.
She ended up leaving and saying, there's no concern here.
And she told me, she said, please be careful.

(01:15:14):
I understand what's going on.
And she was just like, please be careful.
Like, don't.
Because they have to, if someone files a complaint, they have to come out.
have to.
Yeah.
But after talking with and she even interviewed my kids privately.
Like I was like, yeah, whatever you need to do, do I have nothing to hide?
Yeah.
Okay.
And she called a friend of mine to talk about it.

(01:15:35):
And then she was like, yeah, case dismissed.
There's no concern.
So I was like at the park thinking about all that just feeling just so frustrated with thesituation.
The fact that my kids even had to go through that experience is horrible.
They did not have to go through that.
That's going to be a memory that they have now.
Remember when that
lady came to our house.
She asked us these questions and they're just kind of confused.

(01:15:59):
You know that's now an experience they have in their childhood.
They don't deserve that.
A stranger came up to me at the park and he was like, is that an older guy with probablyhis grandson or something?
He was like, just so you know I was watching you with your kids and you're a great mom.
You really care for them and I can tell.
Just what you needed to hear.

(01:16:21):
That was that, like that's all that was said.
So things like that keep you alive.
Right.
They keep you alive.
So you do.
You find your people.
You find your friends.
that's what's going to build your confidence and help you get your voice back and get yourwords back.
It's so easy to let your insecurities isolate you.

(01:16:46):
Like when you're meeting new people and you're like, hey, I'm a single mom of five and Ilive in a safe house.
Like, the?
How do you?
How else do I introduce myself?
You enter society when you're a single mama five little kids who lives in a safe house.

(01:17:06):
What?
Yeah.
And you're being dragged to court over and over again, you know, and there's just sheerchaos and you're you you work as a barista and clearly, you know, single mama five working
part time as a barista is not an ideal situation.
Right.
It's like Red Flag City is how I felt.

(01:17:26):
What in the world?
But you're surviving.
Yeah, that's just, and it teaches you never to come up to someone with assumptions abouttheir circumstances.
It's real easy to judge on the outside.
So easy.
So what happened with court, like after you testified and everything, if you're allowed toshare that.

(01:17:48):
That was in March.
My attorney nailed it.
He absolutely just put all the evidence on the table.
After the three-day trial, by the way, my ex was pro se.
His first, his attorney withdrew from the case.
Of course.
He never got a new one for reasons I can assume about, but.

(01:18:10):
Right.
We'll just...
Yeah.
So he represented himself through a three-day trial.
That went greatly in my favor.
He did a lot of my work for me.
How did he show up for that?
as far as personality and what did he show?
interesting when he had his attorney he would show up to court with his suit coats and hissocks and he has really long hair he would pull it back and tuck it in that's how he would

(01:18:39):
go to church to yeah that's very normal but he showed up to trial he had on like a casualclothes like some black jeans and a little
Like sports, like not a sports coat, but like a zip up blazer like thing with pockets onit.
Yeah, it's very casual and his hair was down.

(01:19:01):
And it was just very different.
And he showed up.
Convent like with all the religious.
Ego, you could.
That's what did my work for me.
I did not have.
what I was curious, how did he show up?
Have to I mean I did when I took the stand, but I did not have to explain his religion.

(01:19:26):
He did that for me in his own words and he absolutely justified everything he did and heabsolutely justified his relationship with a 17 year old and he absolutely said I really
don't agree that the state has the authority to define what is and isn't an adult

(01:19:52):
So glad he showed up in his normal form.
Yeah.
Yeah, there was no filter.
His previous attorney did, you know, they filter you.
That filter was gone.
Yeah.
And that went greatly in my favor.
Good.
Well, then after March, we were waiting on the final order.

(01:20:14):
Okay.
so you didn't find out during court it.
No, I was thinking maybe two to three weeks later.
But the weeks kept going by.
And I was supposed to start work.
I was living in Alabama and my job that I got was in Columbia.
And so I was supposed to get this final order, get the resources I needed to make the moveup to Columbia so I could start my job April 1st.

(01:20:41):
Well, the weeks kept going by and I don't have anything.
I don't have a parenting plan.
I don't have a final order.
have nothing.
And he files another motion claiming a bunch of garbage about me.
We go back to court in April after trial, you know, and it was the same regurgitated stuffand it was dismissed.

(01:21:01):
I mean, it was just like, OK, but we did ask like we is there an update on the order?
And she said, I'm going to need at least 60 more days.
because she was behind the courts are overwhelmed.
It's not her fault.
Courts are overwhelmed.
There's a lot.
There's a lot to deal with.
That's the other, that plays a role in why a lot of SA abusers don't face justice too isbecause of the overwhelm of the courts.

(01:21:27):
mean, it's so much.
So.
That's when I realized I'm going to have to make this move without the court's order,without the support.
I'm just going to have to figure out how to do this.
And I did.
You know, I did.
moved May 30th.
Me and the kids moved to Columbia.
I started work one week later.

(01:21:49):
And when I moved, I didn't even have child care in place.
So I moved to Columbia and I was scrambling to get summer care arranged for all fivechildren.
I was paying for it out of pocket.
I that had to be expensive.
Yes.
Yeah.
he didn't, he did not put any towards childcare.

(01:22:10):
was bearing the cost of that alone.
at that time, way back in the very start of our, like right after I moved to Alabama, thecourt ordered a specific amount in child support.
Considering the circumstance and the amount of children we have, it was very low, verylow.
so what

(01:22:31):
trial was doing is we were asking for more child support and spousal support.
So I did have some support, but it was not very much and it absolutely did not cost.
It didn't even cover the cost of like.
When I lived in the safe house, the ministry hosted me graciously, did not charge me rent.

(01:22:52):
So when I moved, I took on a rental payment and the childcare expense alone.
So between rent and childcare, we're now looking at monthly bills in the thousands.
And my child support at the time was very, very minimal.
But I managed, got through that time.
I have learned that I'm really good at surviving on no money.

(01:23:14):
I know how not to spend money and only pay my bills.
Right, right.
But the time just kept going and I didn't have a final order till September 23rd.
Wow.
So trial in March, final order, September 23rd.
That season of waiting was also incredibly stressful because my work was preparing fortrial.

(01:23:38):
That was it.
That was our fight accumulated in those three days.
We did what we needed to do.
We fought our best and now we're just waiting on the results.
You know, the anticipation of wondering.
I felt very confident in how trial went.
I felt confident that we got everything on the table we needed to do.

(01:24:02):
The expert witnesses did a fantastic job.
But still, I don't have anything in writing.
Ultimately, it is the judge's decision, and I don't have her decision.
So yeah, we did not get just the one.
So the kids started at schools up in Tennessee.

(01:24:23):
I started work.
We're just waiting, waiting, waiting.
But we did.
We got the final order on September 23.
So as of September 23, I am officially divorced.
Congratulations.
Yes, that's a big one.
Huge win.
The order was so well done.
My judge was a very just and honorable.

(01:24:47):
know that she really did pay attention to everything that was presented to her.
And I feel very blessed that I was assigned her as a judge.
She, know, I think she.
She had.
I think I have friends who are also going through legal struggles.

(01:25:10):
And they are often faced with biases in the courtroom that are completely unjust.
The bias being against women.
It's, think our society just has this bias against mothers in general that perhaps if thisis going on, there's a divorce going on, what's going on with the mom?

(01:25:33):
Right.
You know, or when you're
watching your hopes and dreams fall apart you can get emotional and sometimes women areovercome with those emotions in the courtroom and instead of understanding and empathy
that's not how they're handled.
Like she doesn't have control of herself.
I think.
Yeah.

(01:25:53):
Which that's so sad.
Yeah.
It's terrible.
Let's say, you know, let's say you were just raped horribly and you get to testify on itand you're overcome because you're having to relive the experience in front of a room of
strangers.
You're not comfortable in a courtroom setting because who the hell is other than peoplewho do that for a living.

(01:26:14):
Right.
And, you know, if you get up there on the stand and you're.
Yeah, then it's like.
Right.
You know, the doubt and the bias is there.
It is, it is really a shame.
So.
Because just like you said, people are already so scared.

(01:26:34):
And they don't want to do it to begin with.
People's symptoms of abuse are mistaken for deficiencies in their character.
Yes.
Or their mental capacity.
that's a damn shame.
That's a real shame.
throw the unstable word out there a lot.

(01:26:55):
that's just it's not fair.
It's not fair.
Yes.
people who haven't gone through that.
I mean if you're a male judge and you're watching a 17 year old testify about her rape andshe's not doing so great and you're questioning her stability, well were you a 17 year old

(01:27:16):
vulnerable person who got raped?
Do you even know how to even begin to process what she just went through?
And there's such a unfortunately there is such a lack of empathy.
Yes, that's why empathy is everything.
It's everything.
And it needs to absolutely transform the courtroom.
Right.
It does.

(01:27:36):
And I think I don't know how to make that happen.
So much of these problems, I don't think anyone has one answer for how much of theseproblems I don't think are the fault of one person.
You know, so we're just we're just raised in the society we're raised in.
Fish in a fish bowl.
I don't think I think that.

(01:27:56):
You know, the man who struggles to show empathy towards a woman who is just raped orwhatever, whatever goes on, you know, that's a societal condition he's inherited as well.
I don't I think there is intentional evil.
I think I had an experience with intentional evil.

(01:28:17):
But I don't.
you.
don't think that the person struggling to empathize with an experience in a circumstancethey've never been in, I don't necessarily think that's evil on them.
I just think they need to exercise their empathy muscles.
Right, right.
Well, even I used to always say, you know, I lost my first husband when I was 25 years oldand it's like a terrible accident.

(01:28:39):
I witnessed it like all the things you can imagine.
And everybody would always, you know, say to me like, oh, my God, that must be so hard.
I'm so sorry.
I lost my husband.
But I remember after that, because I was pretty young and I had, know, other things thathappened in life.
But I remember that after that.

(01:29:01):
I used to judge people, you know, and I used to be like, yeah, I can't believe she'sacting like that after this or him or you know how people are.
And we truly don't know until we walk in someone's shoes.
Like now I don't judge people for their actions.
I know I had poor actions even after my husband died.
I was lost.

(01:29:22):
I didn't know what to do.
Like all the things you can imagine.
you know, people lose children.
And that's like the thought that I always have in my head.
Thank God, know, knock on everything, whatever.
I haven't had the experience losing a child.
I don't ever want to.
But I know what it was like to lose a husband.

(01:29:43):
But I can't even wrap my head around what someone goes through when they lose a child.
Yeah.
You know, and we don't I don't think even as a society, people don't think that way.
They want to judge.
We always want to judge.
and she's drinking and partying too much.
Well,
What pain is she harboring?

(01:30:04):
What has she been through or he been through?
And it's just so easy to judge the outsider looking at this.
Yes.
Right.
Right.
Like they shouldn't be doing that or they should be doing it this way.
Well, you can't say that because not until you walk it, you just can't.
I know for me, it's like living in the religious environment I used to live in, singlemoms, were judged.

(01:30:30):
Right.
Right?
Right.
And my word if a woman had a child out of wedlock, right?
You know But there were several younger people who left the church that were labeled asrebellious and judged and Maybe they fell into harmful behaviors.

(01:30:52):
But wow, look what they went through right?
It's extremely toxic environment that they're just trying to get out of and untangle fromtheir mind and their soul and
and it's all invisible, no one can see that process happening, no one can see thembattling those, trying to unwrap those chains from themselves from the inside out.

(01:31:12):
You can't see that.
And sometimes it comes out in behaviors that you judge.
And the judgment of people too, even when horrible things happen to could grief my throat.
Say, girl, you got me emotional.
See what's happening.
I think, you know, even if there's a rape victim or, you know, a homicide, whatever itmight be, what did they do to put themselves in that situation?

(01:31:36):
Do you think that they did this?
Do you think that what the hell are talking about?
Like, no, it's not their fault.
No, they probably couldn't have done something different.
Why do people victim blame?
Exactly.
Makes no sense to me.
Exactly.
It's so ignorant.
Have you seen the displays where like, she was raped.
Well, what was she wearing?
then yes, plays where they show the outfits of what they were wearing.

(01:32:01):
some of it's toddler clothes, librarian dress, you know, right.
I feel my face like my blood pressure going up like I guess.
It's so, it's so, it's so unjust.
And that's why there's rage.
And that's why we have so many victims that don't say anything because they're afraid ofall that.

(01:32:24):
because immediately once they start saying something, they're I know for me.
I was gonna say, were you afraid of that?
horribly afraid because my job was to affirm my husband's authority on the outside.
So people who knew me as that obedient, submissive, Christian, godly wife who verbalizedall these things because that's what she was supposed to do, that's what they knew me as.

(01:32:55):
And all of sudden all that fell apart.
And it's like, well, did she
Is she, did she just change her mind?
Right.
It's like, no, I didn't just change my mind.
I got my mind back.
people don't, they don't, they can't comprehend that it was all facade.
It's all a facade that you will be punished for letting down.

(01:33:19):
So yeah, you play the role.
You smile or else.
And so, yeah, when I stopped doing that, when I wiped that smile off my face and I juststarted living the reality of what was going on, yeah, it was and.

(01:33:39):
It is shocking to see someone stop playing the role.
I'm sure.
Right.
But it's like you wish people that are so judgmental of those things, you wish that theywould just think just.
when you realize your what's best for you does not depend on any of those people'sperception of you.

(01:34:03):
That's a big one.
It's.
Yeah.
It's huge when you can actually live your life by I will do what is best for me and I amcapable of determining what is best for me.
Sometimes I might fumble.
Sometimes I'll make mistakes.
Of course.
Like I said, I think I mentioned to this.
I mentioned this to you before we started recording.

(01:34:25):
But, you know, I'm 31 and I have five kids.
I feel like I'm 17 inside.
Control, coercive control, stunts.
development.
It absolutely stunts you.
And so I'm learning what it is to live life as myself again at 31.
The last time I was even trying to do that was when I was 16.

(01:34:50):
So yeah, I'm picking back up.
So, you know, like, don't judge me when I'm blasting my metal music in my ghetto mom band.
Mind your business.
Just don't judge me.
Right!
Well, I guess the cool thing, I mean, the way you could look at it in a positive way isyou're going to grow with the kids and experience with the kids first time, you know, for

(01:35:15):
you, first times for them and the things that you do, which I feel is really cool.
It's wonderful.
The relationship I have with my kids now is more genuine and sincere and authentic than itever could be.
Because I'm no longer having to play the authority figure who must conform these kids totheir father's vision.

(01:35:39):
They need to grow up knowing that they are extensions of his worldview.
That was my role as a mom.
That's not my role anymore.
So what does life look like for you guys, you and the kids now?
Of course, yes, yes, yes.
But we, and there's a lot of healing to do, like I said, that alienation, you know whythey do that to kids?

(01:36:05):
Because it's freaking effective.
That's why they do it.
It'll get results, the results they want to see.
Are they at least starting to recognize now that mom's not the villain?
Mom's not what dad said.
I think they know I'm not the villain.

(01:36:26):
Here's a huge thing that plays a big role in overcoming these types of situations too.
You need to be a safe place for your kids.
You do not need to involve them in what is going on.
Your job is to shelter their childhood, show up, be a care provider, and try to protectwhatever childhood and innocence they have left so that they can properly develop.

(01:36:56):
Don't manipulate them.
They have their own experiences they're going to have to work through.
have their own relationship with someone that they have to struggle with.
They're going to have to figure that out as they grow.
It is not my job to do that work for them.
In fact, that will make them resent me.
So a big part of this and a big part of how you can get through this legal strategy is bethe protector of your children.

(01:37:23):
Just say you're their mom and then go behind everyone's back and say, you know, you're
dad did XYZ and your dad did this and he's really out, know, shut your mouth.
Honor their childhood and their innocence and honor their capability because they areanother human.
They're another individual who has everything they already need to work their healingprogress, their healing journey out.

(01:37:52):
Don't try to manage it for them.
Yeah, show up as their parent, like you said.
Yeah.
Be their mom.
Be present.
Right.
and leave your stuff out of it.
Don't let them carry your healing.
So it just comes back to honoring them as another individual.

(01:38:13):
It doesn't matter that they're two, five, eight, whatever their age is.
They're another person with their own boundaries and their own journey to walk.
And they don't need me to tell them where to go.
and every single one of us have our own journey.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So does he see them now?

(01:38:34):
As of right now, no.
There's no contact right now since the court order on September 23rd.
I do know that there will be attempts at reunification therapy that's not started yet.
I feel confident about it.
In fact, I feel very confident about it.

(01:38:56):
The only thing that I kind of have trepidation about is I do believe it will result insome behaviors cropping back up that I've not had to deal with in a while.
They're very challenging, exhausting behaviors.
takes 100 percent of me to get through it.
When I was working part time at a coffee shop, it's not a mentally taxing job.

(01:39:20):
I just would clock in and make coffee and clock out.
I had more capacity to
handle those behaviors.
But now I'm working eight to five.
I'm at a job that requires a lot of mental attention.
It's very mentally involved.
So when I get off work, I'm not going to be as capable as I was goofing off at a coffeeshop.

(01:39:42):
So I have some trepidation about that.
If behaviors crop up again that I have not had to deal with in several months, start, youknow, I don't know.
Yeah.
I know I'll get through it because I love my-
going to stop manipulating.
No.
That's never going to stop.
And he did it so well that he doesn't even have to say anything anymore.

(01:40:03):
He doesn't.
They know what he wants.
Yeah.
He won't have to say anything negative about me anymore.
He will just continue to lavish them and give those very subtle nonverbal, the things thathe won't get in trouble for.
Right.

(01:40:24):
Until they're older and they can truly make their own decisions and evaluate the situationand see him for what he really is.
And you're right.
That's not your job for that.
It's not my job and I'm sure some of it's gonna be painful I'm sure as their teenagerswill be dealing with all kinds of things.
Yeah But I know that my job is to love them.

(01:40:46):
My job is to Not stunt their own ability to mature and grow by carrying my burden, righthave enough burden on their own so, you know, I'm I That's
That's something I think women in these situations need help knowing too.

(01:41:07):
They need that encouragement.
Because it is so easy to want to just, because the other party's doing it, they're doingit without just free reign.
And so it feels very unfair.
My kids don't know the story.
They don't know you did XYP.
They don't know all this stuff.
done and continue yeah yeah

(01:41:29):
gotta just show up and be their safe place.
It can be exhausting.
It can, but you know they're worth it.
And you also know they didn't ask for any.
But I think in the long run, they'll respect you more when they're old enough to reallylet it click of the things you did for them and didn't participate in the same thing.

(01:41:52):
Yeah, I'm sure that'll maybe that click will happen for all of them at different times anddifferent ages and and different
depending on where they are in their journey of life.
Who knows what might happen?
So, yeah, it's, I'm not too worried about the reunification therapy.

(01:42:15):
The only concern is do I have the capacity to once again manage behaviors that might cropup again?
But, you know, that's just what I need to do.
Yes.
They,
They don't talk about him too much, but they still, they know that he's made life at hishome a candy land.

(01:42:37):
You know that, you bought a pool, like a above ground pool with all the pool floats andlike, you know.
So, but I also know my kids do love me.
And I know that even when there's behavior issues and challenges and stress and all kindsof things that came.
Right.

(01:42:59):
I still know they love me.
Well, you're there constant to you know, you show up, you're there.
And I've seen them.
I don't ever try to pressure them to consider like me.
just isn't as in a I am another person.

(01:43:19):
You know, I know you're angry, but you can't treat anyone this way.
It really doesn't matter.
I'm your mom.
I'm another person.
Right.
And you shouldn't treat any other person this way.
Yeah.
Like they need to know those for sure.
They need to know that they can manage their emotions in a way that did not harm others.
Like children tend to just, you know, let it all out.
The growing up process is learning how to

(01:43:42):
Be responsible for your inner world, right?
In a way that doesn't harm others.
So yeah, they're figuring that out and I want to help them figure that part out, but TheyI know that they they have everything they need to live successful lives They do because
they're humans they really It's a matter of going back and saying I know what I need

(01:44:11):
I'm capable of knowing what I need.
Even when I make mistakes, I'm capable of learning from them.
And so I believe they have that, because I think everybody does.
I truly believe that.
think everybody does.
such an inspiration.
Seriously, it's you've been through hell.

(01:44:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But just the fact that you're able to put this out there for other people, there's so manyother people in the same situation that you were in.
So like if you were to like if they were listening, like what what would be something youwould tell them?
Like if they're in the thick of it, they're right where you were and feeling helpless andhopeless and beat down and everything you can think of.

(01:45:02):
Like what advice do you think that you could give them to know they don't have to bethere?
tell them two things.
The first, really love yourself.
Really take the time to mend your wounds.
It's worth it.
And however you do that is valid.

(01:45:22):
And take the lot, take the time to learn how to do that.
You know, we don't necessarily know what feeds our souls.
Sometimes we have to figure that out.
And you are worth taking the time to figure that out.
Freaking take care of yourself.
And then the second thing I would tell them, of course, is just they're not alone becausethere are so many.

(01:45:46):
Like, I never want to see anyone go through what I went through.
But there are so many, so many who are or who will or are trying to recover.
mean, the statistics alone are.
It's awful.

(01:46:06):
Our society is in crisis.
It really is.
We're in a...
What is it?
I have some of the statistics written down, so many women, it's
Because I don't think we think of it in this manner, that they're going through thingslike this.

(01:46:30):
But statistics are real.
They are.
And that's just the ones that we know about.
all of the ones that aren't 310 out of a thousand sex abuse cases are reported.
310 out of a thousand are actually reported.

(01:46:55):
So yeah, if there's one thing, it's like we need to help these women get their voices backso that the reporting can happen.
That's the first step.
What kind of play, like based on what you've seen and you know, who can they reach out to?
Like what are some of the things that they can do to help their situation like you did?

(01:47:16):
Like you were able to get friends and the ministry helped.
Like what can they do?
first thing they can do is get in alignment with themselves because when you do that otherthings come into an alignment.
there are obviously domestic abuse ministries.
I know there's one in Franklin Bridges Center for domestic abuse.
You can contact they're going to be people who help you with supplies, know, diapers, justbasic necessities.

(01:47:43):
Okay.
I think they have some emotional support groups of women that you know them the women andtheir children can meet.
They can help you get in
contact with attorneys with discounted rates for situations like this.
There's hotlines.
There's, you know, I wish there were more because really the one thing that the hardestthing to find support in is affording.

(01:48:11):
Affording.
That's the hardest thing.
I wish there was more support for that.
I want to make that happen.
And I have some ideas on how to make that happen because it's pretty amazing that so fewabusers actually face jail time.

(01:48:32):
And the reason is because the victims are the ones burdened with the cost of justice andthey cannot afford it.
That's why abusers don't go to jail.
Right.
And so if there is a way to solve that problem, I would love to see a lot of women too,like me for example, I'm recovering from all this stuff.

(01:48:56):
So if I see someone else with a campaign or a fundraiser, there's not too much I can dofinancially to really help them fuel their legal fight and court costs, expert witnesses,
attorney fees, the costs are insane.
It's insane.
on the, you know, how long it takes and depending on their particular abuser, you know, ifthere's, if there's anything like mine, he's going to drag you back to court again and

(01:49:23):
again and again and again.
And you just have to have representation.
and sometimes maybe, maybe you need to adjust and find a better, an attorney that fitsyour needs more.
And then you have, well I retained this one.
We, haven't used up all my hours with this one, but it's not working.
So I got to go retain another one, you know, so the costs are just.

(01:49:43):
I was very blessed with that.
Because of just the people I met along the way, that was able to happen and I'm so,thankful.
But not everyone is going to.
And so if there's a way to help women fund the legal process, we're gonna see a whole lotmore justice.

(01:50:05):
served.
and men are going to be a little more intimidated to commit the act in the first place.
start happening for these abusers.
Yes.
Or we can help women fund the fight and they can show up to every court date they need todo with the finances they need to get through while he's depleting his financial

(01:50:29):
resources.
Exhaust them.
Financially exhaust them.
If they're going to drag your ass back to court, keep showing up and defend your cause.
But you can't do that without financial resources.
So we really have to finance the fight.
Right.
against abuse.
If there's one practical thing to do, that's it.

(01:50:53):
So,
I think that's completely fair to say.
It's true.
It's so true.
it's a huge problem.
I personally would love to see, I would love to utilize social media to make that happenbecause even if I'm not able to, you know, give financially to your cause, if I can
support a social media campaign that is going to pay you for views, that takes no effortfor me.

(01:51:18):
I can, I
And so many other people can do the same.
Exactly.
Because that that is one of the beauties of social media.
Pain in the ass a lot of times.
But there there is good in it.
Yeah.
What about like, you know, there are so many women that have severe domestic violencephysically, you know, and they're scared and

(01:51:46):
the safe houses, are those available?
I wish I had a better answer for this.
I know that the ministry that helped me, their safe houses are maxed.
I think bridges might offer emergency short term, but that's just short term and so oftenyou need more.

(01:52:11):
A lot of times people aren't in a place to go to family because sometimes the family isnot a safe place.
Yes.
A lot of people take it for granted that people have safe relatives to just go.
I have five kids to tag along.
If there's a family in a house, maybe they're supportive of me.

(01:52:31):
They're not going to have the space for You know, and a lot of people, especially womenleaving religious abusive situations, they're going to have a lot of kids.
It's part of the process.
Maybe even money and funding for like short term rentals or whatever.

(01:52:56):
It funding really is if you can use social media to fund your legal campaign and if you'reever in a situation where you need to book an Airbnb, that's it.
So really, it's you've got people have got to fund the fight.
They do.
I don't think people know that it's not funded.
That there's not, you know, I don't think people are aware.

(01:53:19):
think educating people on that is big too.
Right.
How?
What am I going to do?
Right.
what am I gonna do?
I'm gonna speak up, we're gonna go to court and I'm not gonna afford the representation Ineed.
Why isn't he in jail?
Why didn't you pursue that?
Why didn't you take him to court?

(01:53:44):
That's the big blaring.
So, yeah.
But if.
If there's a way to turn the tide and to actually put some fear into these men, no, ifyou're going to do that, be prepared to pay for it.
Right.
Sadly, too, we've been coming across quite a few, like, there's women that are abusers,just like the men.

(01:54:08):
It's mind blowing.
That's so beautiful.
Yeah.
I do want to say that is very real.
kind of emphasize, you know the fight for women or something like that.
And what you went through and everything.
Because statistically it is overwhelming.
The amount of like men who actually commit sexual assault is overwhelming.

(01:54:33):
Like, you know, it's that's not to dismiss in any way that there are men who have sufferedhorribly.
And they need the fight to they need they need funding to.
And I think for them, being a man and things like that happen to you, it's just thought ofdifferent.

(01:54:53):
Like they don't want to say anything because I'm a man, but someone didn't sexually abuseme.
You know, like this everything.
Yeah.
does silence people.
It silences women, but then there's the whole like, well, I'm a man, you know, right?
A man, right?
So you're so you you just there's like this pressure not to

(01:55:15):
Yeah.
your trauma doesn't matter.
does.
It actually.
Right.
and I, you know, a lot of men are harmed as children and they don't feel safe to talkabout it and it just keeps internalizing and internalizing until it spills out.
And like you've said a couple of times too, that's just helping all the abusers.

(01:55:35):
If people don't speak up, they don't worry about consequences because most people don'tsay anything.
Yeah, because it costs a lot to say something.
Yeah.
It does.
It does.
I know your story is going to be amazing for so many people, though, because there's somany that they're just sitting there and being miserable and don't think there's a way

(01:55:59):
out.
and they're alone.
You know, I feel so blessed to have the friends I have.
I feel so blessed to have had the representation that I had to the safe house.
know, just all of that's part of my story and all of that I take no credit for.
I don't know why it happened that way.
I don't know why I was able to live rent free for two years.

(01:56:21):
Five kids.
That's insane.
That's insane that that happened.
So, but if I can just
All of that played a role in me surviving.
And if I'm still alive and walking and breathing after that, I want to make sure othersare too.

(01:56:43):
Because like you said, there are so many.
So I do, I want to try to figure out how to fund the fight because.
Let's work on that, even if we're getting attorneys to discount rates, like you said, orjust all the things.
There's so many people that own businesses that need to donate every year just to get ridof some of their money for taxes or whatever it might be.

(01:57:09):
And it's just such an important cause.
It is.
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
going to get it out there.
I have a feeling.
Yeah.
know I'm I'm I'm still trying to establish a new life you know and it's it's veryexhausting we're 40 hours a week and we can read my kids it is

(01:57:30):
Gotta get out there and tell your story more.
Write a book, girl.
You can do it all.
For sure.
I don't know.
I'm grateful that you came on.
This was good.
Thank you.
This was, it's very special.
It's part of, for me, it's part of healing.
It's just, you know, I've never done anything like this before.

(01:57:51):
Nervous on how it's gonna go.
I gotta give it a shot.
right.
Well, and the fact that it's such an inspiration, that's that's a big deal.
Well, we'll have to have you back in even six months or next year.
How far you've come because I know you're going to you're going to.
you so much.
This was this was great.
You're I love the podcast and what you're doing.

(01:58:14):
Yeah, just just raising more awareness or providing a safe place for people to come on andshare their stories.
Yeah, that's gonna be messy and hard work.
You know, because sharing your story can be messy and hard.
It is even for me like I didn't do I didn't fully do this for I have told a couple ofpeople pretty few people for almost two years because of all my own stuff that I just
wasn't ready and I still haven't told my whole story or anything yet.

(01:58:38):
That's why I'm so grateful for people like you that come on and and they're here to help.
You're here to tell your story.
You're here for it to touch someone else that's going through the same thing.
So we're we're all doing this together like.
Even if our traumas don't match, mean, you write the death of someone you love like yourloved one.

(01:59:00):
Right.
Something I can't relate to.
I did lose my mom, but that's a different relationship.
You know, there's or there's so many kinds of traumas that I don't have to haveexperienced what you did.
You don't have to experience what I did, but there's empathy.
we, I just, we, but we have the thing.
And sometimes maybe empathy just looks like holding a space for silence and tears.

(01:59:24):
Sometimes it looks like cracking a dark joke.
Right, right.
Yeah, I'm all for that
to a very dark and depressing situation.
Sometimes it's just not judging someone when they are vulnerable.
That's huge.
You know, so yeah, you're by this podcast, I can see it's facilitating things like that,which have a huge, huge impact.

(01:59:49):
Right.
So we're all doing it together.
Thank you for coming on today.
You're very welcome.

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