March 5, 2025 • 45 mins
Angela MacDonald CBE, Deputy Chief Executive and Second Permanent Secretary with HMRC, joins Jo Causon this week to discuss her role, her approach to leadership, and how to keep up with a rapidly evolving customer landscape.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome back to another episode of Course in Nomics, where I'm joined on a weekly basis bybusiness leaders and influencers across every industry sector to discuss how a strong
customer service nation results in a strong economy.
This week, a great friend of mine joins me for engaging in a delightful and interestingdiscussion on the challenges facing customer service leaders in the public sector.
(00:27):
Angelo MacDonald.
as Deputy Chief Executive and Second Permanent Secretary at HMRC.
I have the pleasure of picking her brains on not just the role of HMRC and how she istrying to drive customer transformation, but what that might also hold for future
government departments.
So please do sit back and listen to our conversation.
(00:53):
A very warm welcome to everybody this morning to our latest Coursonomics podcast.
And it's a real privilege today to be joined by the brilliant and wonderful AngelaMcDonald.
Now I've had the privilege of knowing Angela a few years now and she's a real tour deforce and an amazing lady that has driven change, not just in her current role, but in
(01:14):
many of the other roles that she has undertaken.
Her current role is that she is HMRC Revenue and Customs Deputy Chief Executive.
and second permanent secretary.
Gosh, that's quite a mouthful, Angela.
It is a hell of a title.
I know that you had life inside and outside of the public sector, but basically you're anoperations professional with 30 years worth of experience delivering transformational
(01:41):
change in both the public and private sector.
And I do mean transformational change, as you will hear this morning on this podcast.
I think, Angela, I'm right to say that you joined the Civil Service in 2009 and you have anumber of real areas of passion.
You worked in the Department of Work and Pensions and again, that was all about servicedelivery and transformation.
(02:03):
And you moved to HMRC.
That's a brave move, I think, in 2017 and became the Director General for Customer Serviceat that point.
But you've also had a huge legacy working with Aviva and other legacy companies prior tothat.
Angela, it is a real pleasure.
So thank you for taking some time to be with us today so that we can have a bit of a chatabout what's going on in your world and how we might be able to see things going forward
(02:30):
in the future.
So, Angela, tell us a little bit about yourself.
I've said more than enough, but tell us about your role, yourself, what drives you?
hi Jo, well thanks ever so much for inviting me, it's always wonderful to have a chance tocatch up with the fantastic work of you and the Institute.
So as you said, I'm an ops person by background, it's always been about delivery andoutcomes and making a difference and I've currently got the absolutely extraordinary
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privilege of leading the 65,000 people who collect all of the money that pay for publicservices and
I always like to articulate it in that way rather than talking about being theorganisation that takes the money off people because actually without HMRC nothing happens
and all of that money that people contribute is funding all of the vital public servicesthat people need and rely on.
(03:21):
So it's an absolute privilege to be in HMRC.
And the other reason why I could get so excited about my job is that it's one of thebiggest organisations you can be a part of, 65,000 people.
But every citizen, every business, some of the biggest IT, some of the biggest dataholdings, I mean, if you want to do delivery at scale, not just HMRC, there are other
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organisations, DWP was my prior one to this.
They're absolutely amazing organisations to be a part of and that's what sort of bouncesme out of bed every day because there's always a big challenge.
I also get the chance to represent us internationally and maybe people don't realise justthe high regard.
that we are held in places like HMRC are held in amongst our international taxpayers.
(04:05):
So I'm a very proud civil servant and I think my 20 years in the private sector I thinkactually have helped me be a better civil servant because actually that mix and that
diversity really adds value.
ability to learn from each other, I think is really, really important.
Totally.
Angela, something I was also very struck about, because back to your point about the sizeand the scale of HMRC, and I remember when I first met you, we talked about HMRC having a
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lens or a view on...
where we are economically in terms of the UK, because we all know it as taking my taxes asan individual.
But actually, there's so many different divisions of HMRC.
So give me a little kind of sense of this barometer, because this sense of what is goingon in the UK, because you obviously have trade, you have the wider international piece
(04:56):
that you've been talking about.
So what's the state of when you look at what's going on?
across the UK at the moment.
How do you see the state of the economy and what are the kind of the bellwether measuresthat you can see?
So if we're importing more or exporting more, you see that, don't you?
If we're looking across different divisions, you will see the general health, if we'recollecting more tax in this area.
(05:19):
Where do you think we are at the moment, Angela, in terms of seeing the sense and theunderstanding of growth, I guess, in the UK, which is obviously everything that we're
trying to drive?
It's a challenge, isn't it?
Because as a good public servant, it's my job to manage the administration and not thepolitics and the economic policy.
But you're quite right.
We see the results of everything that's going on.
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So we see how the house market moves because of what goes through on stamp duty.
We see what's going on with passing of wealth between generations because we see what'sgoing on through inheritance tax.
We see what's going on on trade because what we are managing the customs
border and we're managing the processes, the administration of the flow of trade insideand outside.
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We're also seeing the growth in the tax base as earnings rise and therefore with staticallowances we're seeing people pass through.
We also run through child benefits so I'm also seeing what's going on with the state offamilies and who's claiming we look after tax-free childcare so we're also seeing the
health of the childcare sector.
(06:25):
So you know I said to you before
is that there's just so much stuff on the go.
Also, HMRC, the UK is part of a global tax environment and multinational organisations whoare in many, many jurisdictions and we manage the UK facets of those who are either UK
headquartered or are trading in the UK.
So we're seeing how money is moving between the different countries and internationalcooperation is absolutely vital for those massive MNEs.
(06:52):
It's one of the reasons why HMRC is so incredibly important, sort of at the heart ofgovernment, because we're not only the sort of the money movement, but we're also the
source of the data really, which allows the government to see so much of what is going on.
We are seeing more and more people brought into the tax system.
That's the result of policies of all the governments up to now.
(07:14):
So it's not a feature of this government in particular.
We are also seeing changes to the nature of debt.
and how speedily people are paying their taxes and our debt balance is larger post thepandemic than it was.
What's really intriguing there, talking to my international peers, is that's not a UKspecific phenomena.
(07:35):
Actually, many jurisdictions are seeing a strain on their economies and the attitudes topaying of tax debts sort of shift accordingly.
there's a lot that...
pumps through, that means you can get a real flavour for it by looking at the veryextensive statistics that HRC publishes on a very regular basis.
And I think that is really important, Angela, because it gives you a real sense of theimportance of HMRC and that opportunity to really drive better information, better data,
(08:03):
to be able to make more informed decisions as businesses, but also for government.
So I do think it's really helpful that you've explained all of that, because I didn'treally think about HMRC fulfilling that kind of role.
So thank you for sharing that side.
Now we're in a new year and I don't know about you, Angela, I'm not very good at newyear's resolutions.
(08:24):
But what do you think are the biggest external pressures facing organizations to improvetheir service offering in particular?
We can't get through any conversation at the moment without talking about AI.
And that's obviously has some huge opportunities and probably we're only really at thestart of our AI journey.
I can see in the UK CSI that customer service generally is under pressure.
(08:49):
And I'm sure you can see some of the external pressures facing organizations.
So what do you those are for any organization and particularly when we're trying toimprove or strive to improve our service offering?
As you said, you've got massive experience driving transformational change across a numberof hugely complex departments.
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So what are the main external pressures?
And what advice, I suppose, would you give for any organisation that's trying to improvetheir operations more effectively?
What's really interesting is that from the people I talk to, and I mentioned before aboutinternational, I think there are massive issues in common.
Expectations are rising from the citizen.
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Digital is great, but it raises massively the expectation of a timescale that says, we'llwrite back to you in a couple of weeks, which used to be fine.
No, no, I sent the email and I want my answer right now.
So massively rising expectations of the citizen.
And again, I don't think that's not a public sector question.
That's all of us.
I think that's moving.
And I also think that technology is definitely the route to solving some of theseproblems, but not for everybody.
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mean, there are lots of private sector organizations that get to choose their customers.
You know, here is my service offer, and if that's not what you're after, go and findsomebody else.
In the public sector, I have to deal with all 70 million people, know, whatever is yourposition.
And I think that there is a real challenge in service about...
sectors of society feeling left behind by the digital revolution.
(10:20):
You know, they see that but actually technology feels scary.
The exploitation by scammers puts people off.
My parents are very resistant to tech, not because they're not digital savvy, they reallyare, but they are frightened of tech.
They are frightened of the risk of it.
So I think for service organizations, you've got the, who are my customers?
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Their expectations are moving.
Money is tight, profitability, funding, there's a lot of pressure on the bottom line.
And then how am I managing to build trust and credibility?
How do I drive digital in a way that is safe and secure and can be trusted?
How do I make sure I don't leave behind other people who might be incredibly valuable tome?
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I mean, as I say, for me in the public sector, it's literally everybody, but in a privatesector organization, you might have segments that you really want to stay as your...
customer group and you often then sat on top of many organizations are sat on top oflegacy technology where in order to get the benefits of all of this fantastic new stuff
you've got to seriously invest in modernizing and what tech do you back?
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Are you at the cutting edge?
Are you a fast follower?
There are many people selling you the answers out of your piece and then where do get thefunding to invest in that?
So I think that as a service leader
that pace of change that is moving around you and then working out what's the rightstrategy for you and your customers and your organisations.
That's one of the real challenges that I think all of us who run these organisationsreally face.
(11:55):
I mean you'll see that I'm sure when you're talking to us around the Institute tablethere's lots we have in common and we're many grappling with some very similar sets of
board table decisions.
Totally.
And I was talking to my team actually earlier today and seeing it in sharp focus with my96 year old mum trying to navigate a very digital led world and how that can be very
(12:18):
positive, but also hugely excluding.
And I can only imagine, Angela, when you've got such a broad, not just range of customerscapabilities and interests and desires in terms of connecting with technology, but also
complexity of the issues and problems that they are having to grapple with.
Totally.
I people say, why can't you be more like Amazon?
(12:39):
There are lots of fantastic things about Amazon logistics business.
That is not the same as managing the complexities of your tax.
So there are definite things to learn from some of these great big digital businesses whohave been revolutionary and have done some fantastic stuff.
But that doesn't mean that that can be capable of being done across complex.
Transactions not just tax but a whole array of complicated offers that organisations make.
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Humans still need to be in here somewhere, in the right place for your proposition.
Totally.
And you know that we would concur with that and we certainly see that across everyindustry sector as you were saying.
I also think, Angela, when we are designing this language really matters too, doesn't it?
It matters that we, and I know that you're a passionate advocate for this, but lookthrough the lens of the customer and walk through that in a way of really understanding.
(13:31):
If I think about the PowerSport office, they've done a brilliant job.
at ensuring that my passport delivered on time.
But that is because they have designed that journey and designed all those interactionswith the customer in mind and probably tested that to death.
So just thinking about HMRC and thinking about the transformation that you are driving orany of the projects that you have driven, any pearls of wisdom from you, Angela, that you
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think, you know, I've stole something from you when you said, let's stop admiring theproblem and get going.
And I think that is a really impressive and an important thing to remember.
For any pearls of wisdom that you would have, that you think any organization really needsto think about, what would be your top tips?
So I think being really clear on what it is you want to offer and who you want to offer itto.
(14:22):
I mean, I know that might sound like a statement of the blindingly obvious, but when Ilook at some of my projects that succeed and some of them that don't, if you're not clear
enough at the top of the organisation about what's important, by the time it hastranslated itself down 14 layers and it's turned itself into a project, then...
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you can end up with things delivering that you weren't expecting.
Also about your appetite for risk.
So I think there can be a real desire to say, I won't put it out till it's perfect.
Well, services need to iterate.
How do you manage that?
Do you have a really strong and clear view of what your technology is doing and not justbeing sold the latest idea by the latest person who's busy lobbying you trying to put, you
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what's your long-term answer?
So
I think that clarity at the senior level about where are you going, who are you doing itfor and how are you going to go about it.
Again, as I say, teaching to suck eggs, but I'm amazed by how many times that kind ofmisses in some of those other things.
And then I think the other thing is about the permission to make the change.
(15:30):
So what do I mean by that?
So if you're a brand new entrant into a market, you've got no legacy, you're busy, you'rein there and you're trying to steal somebody else's market with
great and brand new ideas.
But if you are an existing organization and you're trying to change the way your customersinteract with you, now I'm in the fortunate position where my customers can't leave me,
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but many organizations are not in there, then how do you make change and take thosecustomers and those colleagues with you?
And if you look back over the last 12, 18 months of HMRC on our digital journey, you saw areally interesting example there.
a really harsh example actually of where we didn't have the permission to go at the pacewe wanted to go.
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And interestingly for us the learn was actually you've got to be delivering good analogservice to create the space for people to be prepared to go digital with you.
You can't digitize your way out of a bad position.
And again, if your customers can leave you or in my instance if your customers can voicematerial dissatisfaction then
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How do you go about the change knowing that you have prepared the ground, knowing thatthey understand what you're doing and knowing that they can see that what you're doing is
in their best interests, not just yours.
And I think there are again, plenty of mistakes made and I can hold my hand up to ourswhere we weren't on top of the analog service and therefore people were just not
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listening, not interested in the great things actually we were doing digitally.
So those will be my sort of array of
And I think all of that is brilliant insight.
But your last point, think, is really important actually, Angela, because if you aredelivering, as you said, a good experience, think we as customers and citizens understand
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that things have to change and things have to move.
But if you've already got a good base, it's easier, isn't it, to kind of then explain whywe want to move to this next thing, why we're going to do this and what's in it for me as
a customer or a citizen.
And I think sometimes any organisation forgets that communication, that really importantbit of, well, getting it right first time anyway, but also once you've been able to be,
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and by the way, that's not easy, but you know, once you've been able to do that, to buildon that and to seek permission.
I think it's a really interesting point, Angela, about I'm seeking permission to do thisbefore I do it to you.
It's about that dialogue.
It's about that conversation that we're having with customers.
Because I think most of us, if we are
explained why, know, explained to and understand far better about why we're trying to dosomething, but much more likely to accept it.
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It's when we feel out of the loop, we don't understand, we feel alienated.
And I think there's a lot of lessons that any business can actually learn from that,particularly as we are about to step into even greater degrees of digitalization,
utilization of AI in the longer term robotics, biometrics, all of this stuff.
making sure we carry people with us through that journey, I think is going to beabsolutely critical.
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Just on that, I know in an interview that you did with Civil Service World a couple ofyears ago, and again, this is a problem across public and private sector, and we've
certainly seen it at the Institute, but it's really hard to get people who have all theskills and the experience to do some of the really challenging jobs.
And given that we are probably still coming out of a nationwide skill shortage at themoment.
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Do you feel that is still the case for HMRC and how are you going about addressing thatchallenge?
think you're right.
Skills and the changing nature of skills is again a challenge for any organisation and togive you a kind of a scale example just given our size we need to grow our compliance
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capacity by a net 5,000 people to collect the money that we need to do but to get to thatI've got to recruit 12,500 new tax professionals in the next three years and
you know, there aren't those people out there.
We have to grow those people.
So I need to attract people who I have to convince a whole load of people that becoming atax professional is the career they want to have.
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And I'm not sure many people go, mummy, when I grow up, I really want to be a taxprofessional.
So how do I make this seem like an exciting place that you want to A, do the task and B,grow your career?
So there are some particular niches of things which are a challenge for any organization,particularly for us.
But I think more
Broadly, we aren't top payers.
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There is a massive competition for skills, particularly in technology and data and inservice design.
I think one of the things that an organisation has to work out is what's its offer?
Because if it's only money, then as soon as the next offer comes to that person, they'llbe off to somebody who's going to pay them more.
So you can't buy, in my view, can't buy long-term loyalties.
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I mean, the money can help.
But you can't buy long-term loyalty simply by saying, well, we'll just throw money atpeople.
you know, for me, what's my offer?
Why would you want a career with me?
Well, my kind of pitch is if you want to be involved in some of the biggest and mostcomplex cyber, if you want to be on one of the biggest technology estates, if you want to
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really cut your teeth on scale leadership and scale challenges, then public sector offersyou that kind of complexity, that kind of growth that you want.
And also there are lots of people for whom the belief that they're doing something thatmatters, that makes a difference.
And again, I'm not trying to say that the commercial environment doesn't matter because ofcourse it really does.
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But there are people who are driven by public service and that as a part of what they wantto do.
And so I kind of need to hook into those.
But I also think things like we're being a very flexible employer.
We are UK wide.
So actually the biggest possible talent pool with the kind of offer that goes with
that, you know, I recognize that the whole working from home and flexible working is acontentious topic perhaps and has moved over time.
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But actually, if you think about the kinds of people who we can bring into the workforcebecause we are offering flexibility, actually that increases the pool of talent.
So I think employers have got to be increasingly creative about who they attract.
And then I think actually you've also got to
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be prepared to invest for the long term and grow the skills from the start.
So we know in digital we won't be able to buy some of the people that we need.
So we're investing in how we train them, how we grow them.
We know we'll lose some of those people to others, but how do we train?
So we've launched a number of new academies, also about apprenticeships.
How do we again get people in at the start of their careers and who might not stay withHMRC forever, but they might be excited by another part of the public sector.
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You've got to work out what your offer is either at the beginning of somebody's career oras they go along.
And I'm an incredibly proud civil servant.
I think that actually there can be a negative narrative about the kind of things we do.
Actually, there are half a million people doing the broadest variety of things and it's agreat place to have a career.
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But you want to be proud, don't you?
And I think we've got more to do to make people feel
proud to be civil servants and also to be viewed by the general public that we are peoplewho care and who work hard and who are doing everything that we can because that
reputation it'll be what turns people off us or might make them apply to us.
(23:06):
Indeed, and attracting the right level of skill, capability.
I you've touched on so many important things there.
I mean, you will know that our second pillar of the service nation is around theprofession and seeing customer experience and service as a profession.
And you also have touched on some key areas around purpose.
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know, most people want to work for a purpose led organization.
And when you think about, you know, we started this
conversation around, you know, what's the purpose of HMRC and what's the purpose of thepublic sector more broadly.
I do think actually, Angela, that the sector could do more to promote some of thebrilliant work that actually it does, but also why this is so critical.
(23:55):
Again, you touched on the state of global environment.
I think it is really important that we...
in the UK stand proud about the service profession.
80 % of our GDP in the UK is generated through service.
Much of what goes on in the public sector is about service.
And as you said, you join that sector because you want to make a difference.
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You join that sector because you're looking to serve the citizens around.
That doesn't mean that we do everything that the citizen needs.
We can't.
But actually, it does have a slightly different lens.
And I think that is very attractive.
think you're absolutely right.
I think the challenge for service professionals, I agree it's not necessarily seen as aprofession.
Many of these jobs are minimum wage jobs in all sorts of organisations, but yet that isthe face of your brand.
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That is who it is that your customers will make or break whether or not they might buyfrom you again, is that person.
It is heartbreaking to see.
I know some of the work that the Institute has been driving about treating service peoplewith respect.
Some of the physical assaults in supermarkets and those kind of places.
There is something going on that I don't totally understand where the frustration of thecitizen, of some, a small number of citizens, is meaning that actually people are being
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rude and physically rude to these people who, as I say, are trying desperately to deliver.
So there is a real...
Maybe I'm very biased because this is my career as being an ops person, but I think thatthe value and the effort and the contribution that is made by what is the face of the
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brands that all organisations are doing, respecting that, investing in that, seeing thatas a career opportunity rather than just more resources.
There is more for all sectors to do in seeing the value add and also something more aboutthat story to the
consumer that says, you know, if you want to still have people doing these jobs with whomyou were interfacing, then there is an interesting thing about how the behavior puts
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people off.
Who'd want to do this job?
Who wants to go work in a supermarket if what you're worrying about is getting assaultedby somebody?
I mean, we're going to get what we deserve as customers if we're not careful with thepeople who fulfill incredibly vital jobs.
Absolutely, Angela.
We have a phrase, you know, you've got to be a good customer as well as giving goodcustomer service.
You know, there's a level of respect that all of us need to be able to give to anyone thatactually is serving us.
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And this is not about servitude.
It's a respected profession.
And also not just at the front line.
I mean, you talked about attracting people, training them, developing them.
As a tax advisor, you've got to have pretty good customer service skills, I would imagine.
And therefore seeing this career.
across the whole of the public sector because I think if you're in an operations role,whether you're a COO, whether you're a director general, everything comes through the lens
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of how do we drive this to make it effective for the organization, but also to be able todeliver for the citizen and the consumer.
And therefore having the right skills of curiosity, empathy, thinking outside of the box,joining all of those things up.
I think that's another reason why a career in
the public sector could be so exciting because you can touch on all parts, as we said, oflife.
(27:20):
And again, think really trying to leverage that more.
I agree, I think there is a bigger opportunity for us to tell our story.
know, can, if you're interested in the weather or space or the environment or welfare orlegal or you're a technology person or you're an HR professional, know, pretty much
(27:40):
anything you want to do, there is a civil service job, I sound like a job advert here, buthonestly, anything you want to do the civil service can offer it to you.
You know, you can be working on...
managing royal events.
mean there's literally everything on the go and again we don't tell that story well enoughand there's definitely an opportunity to do so I think.
And I think there's a bigger bit for the Institute as well in terms of, I you touched onthe Service with Respect campaign, but also the service profession.
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And that's something that the Institute, we're going to be keen to continue to drive quitehard over the next two or three years, actually, until we get there, until people see
service as something that I'm going to stay in as well, because that is, it's not justabout doing it until something else comes along.
It's about staying in it, growing in it, and actually achieving the level of roles that,like yourself, have achieved, Angela.
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You you wouldn't have achieved that if you hadn't come from a background that was curious,that was service led and really asked those knotty and difficult questions so that we can
resolve those problems.
And we need curious people.
We need people that are challenging and keen to make sure that we drive thoseimprovements.
And I know, Angela, because I know you really well, you've been such a campaigner forthat.
(28:48):
And that is so, so important to help people in very senior roles within the civil servicethat really care as much as you do.
and I take my hat off to you.
The thing in public sector is you've got to be very self driven.
So if you're in the private sector, you've got competitors.
So you've got customers who can leave you.
They've got new entrants to the market all the time.
You've got people innovating.
(29:08):
You've got people pushing the boundaries.
In the public sector, I don't have any competitors and my customers can't leave me.
Okay.
So in order to drive transformation, you know, it's always our job to deliver what thegovernment of the day wants.
But a lot of it is about you've got to be perpetually dissatisfied.
And I don't mean that in a destructive way.
I mean, you've got to create your own competitors.
(29:31):
You've got to drive your own better ifs and mores and could it be different and what doesthe data tell us?
So we've got to sort of self-generate that people snapping at our heels piece in thepublic sector.
And it's really important that we do that.
Otherwise we don't move.
Because as I say, our customers can't leave us.
Yes, absolutely.
(29:51):
And I was going to ask you actually, as somebody that's had a career that's spanned bothprivate and public sectors, what lessons can each learn from the other?
And I think it's interesting what you're saying about that curiosity, that self-imposeddesire to make it better is a key driver, not because you want to make more profit, but
because actually you can see a better way of doing things.
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And the public sector, I think, has such a huge opportunity.
Challenges, yes, because of the complexity and the broad range of different customerswhich we've touched on, but actually the better side of that is you don't have an investor
or a shareholder that is very interested in very short-term returns.
So there are pros and cons, aren't there, Angelo?
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Well, we do have a treasury who's very focused on ensuring that we are the most efficientin the tight environment.
I I think that when I compare public and private sector, actually, when I first joinedafter 20 years in financial services, I thought, gosh, this is going to be completely
different.
I was really amazed at how weirdly the same it was.
(30:56):
So you're running tech, you are trying to deliver service, you have got cyber, you've got
people, recruitment and engagement issues.
The running of big ops, there is an awful lot that is the same.
Whatever your big ops is, whether I'm processing tax cases or you're processing pensionsales or whatever it is that you're driving, know, probity and control over your money and
(31:20):
your ledgers, you know, there's a whole load of things which are exactly the same.
And I think that what I have increasingly noticed over my time is that there is
and increasing interchange.
So if you looked across my senior team, you would see a load of people with a privatesector background who have been in and out of both sectors.
(31:41):
And I think there might be a kind of a perception that people stay in their lane.
know, private sector people stay in the private sector and public sector people stay inthe public sector.
But actually, I think my view over this last sort of five years plus is that that's reallyaltering and that you are seeing it.
Now, again, back to my
I don't have competitors.
(32:02):
That fresh thinking that comes in with people who other life experiences, who have workedin other organizations who have got different markets or different customers, that's what
brings some more fresh thinking to the table.
So I think that certainly at the delivery end, at my end of it, this divergence of theseare two sectors and never the twain shall meet is actually not what I experience.
(32:26):
And
Ministers are very keen to ensure that best practice is shared and that things arereviewed and challenged.
And we should welcome that because we face some very big challenges and the more help wecan get and the more help we can interchange.
But equally going the other way, I face some bigger challenges that many organizationsdon't have the experience or the capacity for.
(32:49):
So we've got lots of things we can share back the other way.
So it should be a mutually positive environment.
Because as I say, there's more that's the same than is different in my experience.
I concur completely.
The privilege of my role is that I get to work with lots of different industries and lotsof different sectors.
We've already touched on the fact that the things that keeping most CEOs and senior peopleawake at night are the same.
(33:12):
You know, there will be culture, will be efficiencies, there will be about deployment oftechnology, they're about the skills agenda, they're about making sure that we are able to
manage all of our stakeholders.
And actually, it's another great advert for why a service-related role is such a great wayof doing that, because the lessons that you can learn from different industry sectors are
(33:32):
applicable wherever, in terms of delivery of that service experience.
The context will be different, but the actual lessons that we can learn from that and howwe do, I think, are very, very similar.
But let's go back to the tech bit, because the public sector recently has been very vocalabout being able to try and be more efficient.
(33:53):
And I'm just going to give my concerns slightly, if I was honest.
And it goes back to your point about making sure we don't leave anyone behind.
I'm a big believer in tech.
I'm a big believer.
And I think we're just at the beginning of AI.
But one of the things I think we need to really think about is how we integrate that in away that is effective for all, not just for those that can, so that we carry everyone.
(34:19):
And actually, I still think that's quite a big issue in the private sector as well.
if we want to be able to make sure that we're a really service led country, which isreally important, I think, for our future.
So how are you deploying and what lessons have you mentioned that about making sure youget your analog right before you apply your digital aspect to it?
(34:39):
But is there any things that you're applying in terms of emerging technologies that youthink will be revolutionary for the service levels that HMRC are able to give?
We have actually as HMRC been using AI for a very long time, not large language models,but using technology.
Because if you think about the level of data that we have, we can have a lot of data andnot a lot of insight, okay, if you're not careful.
(35:06):
And I need to look at data in order to be able to spot where the compliance problems are,add various things together to show me where it is that businesses or individuals are not
being compliant, where I need to be pointing my investigative activity.
So we've been
doing that on compliance targeting, on document analysis, on debt risk predictions, onanalyzing customer behavior.
(35:30):
So that kind of bit that helps the colleague see the wood for the trees, if you like, Ithink that technology is an absolute game changer in that space.
In helping see connections which a human could not be able to see the patterns in thedata.
so that you end up getting sharper and more precise and more focused on the interventionsthat you are making.
(35:55):
So I think that there is there we've been doing that for a long time and as the tools aremodernizing that is an area where we keep investing because the sharper and more precise
we can help to see through and into that massive data the more operationally effectivethat.
we can be.
So that's a big area.
And again, other organizations may well have their own version of that, but know, Wood forthe Trees is a massive opportunity.
(36:22):
I think also back to the Wood for the Trees at the other end is there's more informationavailable for the citizen than ever there was, but actually that doesn't make it easier to
know what's going on.
It just means that when you put something into Google and up pop 400 searches with a wholeload of documents.
all, you know, and how do you know
(36:42):
What's your trusted source of information if you're the citizen?
How are you tackling that?
And I think that as sort of chat bots move into more and more sophisticated, I mean, we'vebeen doing sort of natural language and chat bots, structured chat bots again for a long
time.
About 60 % of some of the stuff that we do at the minute that goes through the chat botthat goes into our web chat, the chat bot is happily answering the question and the
(37:06):
customer is happy with the answer.
But the more complicated the question,
the more sophisticated the tech has got to be.
And again, the large language models, as long as you're careful the data it's using it,that it's taking its insight from, that offers you an opportunity to really help your
customers see the wood for the trees.
Again, because there's so much information, how do you get that kind of trusted source?
(37:31):
And again, we've been doing that.
I think the other area is things like efficiencies.
So if you're on that call back to, want good analog services, then...
things like small things like call wrap up or updating all the systems when you've put thecustomer's phone down, summarization of the call.
Again, new tech offers the opportunity and it's only, you know, 30 seconds of call, 60seconds of call, but you add that up over my 35 million phone calls a year and that's lot,
(37:58):
there's a lot of saving.
So I think that there are real opportunities, know, things we have been doing, but thereare real opportunities to keep going.
I think the risk about it,
is the risk on your technology about the ethics about where decision making is made.
Is the country ready for actually that tax decision that said that you owed me some moneythat actually technology made that decision and not a person?
(38:23):
Okay.
So you get into the just because you can, should you?
And I think the answer to that depends very much on your organization and what's theproposition you're offering to the customer.
But I think that the tech together with the trust
and the ethics and the safety and security have got to go hand in hand.
(38:43):
This can't just be, we can save a whole load of money, let's just roll the tech out.
There's definitely loads you can do with the tech, but as a senior team, I think you'vegot to have all the other bits in sight.
And we have a professional standards committee that at which we discuss specifically theethics question of, because we can, should we?
(39:05):
And some of the answer is yes, and some of the time the answer is,
No, actually, that is not the right thing to do to preserve trust and transparency andcredibility with the citizen.
it's not a straight, this is just not a tech play in my view.
completely agree.
And what you're talking about is responsibility.
What you're talking about is good governance.
The role that the customer has as part of that, which again comes back to the view that,you know, customer service isn't just about operational delivery.
(39:33):
When we're thinking about developing systems capability, when we're thinking about ouroffering, when we're thinking about what we're here to do, walking that through the lens
of the customer and deciding whether that is the right thing to do has become Angela.
I think one of the most important and as we see 2025 unfold, I think will become even moreimportant.
(39:55):
It's not just about doing the delivery, it's about making sure we're doing it for theright reasons.
I can see that in all of our data in the UK CSI, in much of our research, howorganisations deploy what they are doing to make sure that it is the right thing to do.
I think we'll ensure we stay on the right path and if we don't,
(40:17):
Angela, then we can get ourselves in some very scary places.
Angela, I know that you are tight on time, so I'm just going to wrap up very shortly withjust a couple of final questions.
I am delighted that you are Vice President of the Institute.
Has that in any way, I'm hoping the answer is that is yes, but how then should I say hasthat influenced your approach to service leadership within HMRC?
(40:40):
It's great privilege to be a part of the Institute because it allows me an easy way totalk to my peers.
You know, I said earlier about the common experiences.
There is so much good stuff that goes on in all sorts of organisations.
And the thing which I really value about the community of the leaders who are part of theInstitute is the generosity with which people share their insights.
(41:05):
You know, we're mainly in sectors where we're not competing against each other and
there is a massive commonality of the problems we face, of the solutions.
there are so many things where people have had a go at something, which you might notautomatically think I could deploy in a tax environment, but it just tweaks an idea or
pulls a thread of a thought that you can then go off and drive through.
(41:29):
And I think that makes a difference.
Also, sometimes it can be immensely reassuring because sometimes I sit with my problemgoing flipping heck.
This isn't good and it's only happening to me.
It can be incredibly reassuring to understand that actually the citizen behaviour or theoutcome we're seeing is not a direct consequence of something HMRC has done on its own.
(41:49):
It's actually something we're seeing more broadly across a variety of landscapes.
So it gives me a sort of an easy touchstone to contextualise some of what I might beseeing.
And I think that being at the top of any organisation can be a very lonely place and
The opportunity to be part of a community of other people in those roles and get that, asI say, that kind of push, reassurance, pull adds real value.
(42:17):
Well, I'm delighted to hear that.
And you're right, the community that the Institute is able to bring together is veryimportant to us too.
And we don't take that lightly.
We're very fortunate to have some very senior people like yourself and to the contributingto the future of service.
So within that context, final last question, what change would you like to see businessleaders implement today that can really impact the future of customer service?
(42:45):
You're only allowed one.
So what would that be?
What's your pearls of wisdom to any business leader?
think it goes back to something I said earlier which is about your investment andconfidence and the status of the people who are at the very front of your organisation.
So those people often minimum wage employees who are the face of your brand I think thatthose people are having to change their skills.
(43:11):
They are working in a digital world.
They are having to keep pace with your new offer, your new tech, your new ways of workingthat you're trying to
drive and I think that there is a risk that we get very focused on the technology which isincredibly important and we lose the sense that those frontline people, matter even if
(43:34):
you've got less of them than you had before, they remain the humanity of yourorganisation.
We've always needed to do that but I think that there is a risk that we forget thosepeople, we leave those people behind as part of our transformation.
So for me
I think the future success relies on the same thing as the past success, which is goodquality service delivery professionals who make sure that your brand is delivering every
(44:03):
single second of every single day.
Angela MacDonald, it's absolute pleasure as always to have an opportunity to spend sometime with you and your insights and wisdom are always very, very welcome.
Thank you so much for your time today.
You take care and thank you to all our listeners as well.
Angela, we'll speak soon.
Thank you.
(44:24):
next day.
I always thoroughly enjoyed catching up with Angela and personally I find her passion forher role and how it supports the UK to be very contagious and I hope that you did too.
Join us next time on Course Anonics where I have the privilege of chatting to the CEO ofHome Improvement Giants, Wix, about what keeps David awake at night in such a competitive
(44:46):
sector and how he's trying to drive innovation and change to ensure that the homeimprovement world is seen in a better and stronger light.
Until then, please go safely.
Welcome back to another episode of Course in Nomics, where I'm joined on a weekly basis bybusiness leaders and influencers across every industry sector to discuss how a strong
customer service nation results in a strong economy.
This week, a great friend of mine joins me for engaging in a delightful and interestingdiscussion on the challenges facing customer service leaders in the public sector.
(00:27):
Angelo MacDonald.
as Deputy Chief Executive and Second Permanent Secretary at HMRC.
I have the pleasure of picking her brains on not just the role of HMRC and how she istrying to drive customer transformation, but what that might also hold for future
government departments.
So please do sit back and listen to our conversation.
(00:53):
A very warm welcome to everybody this morning to our latest Coursonomics podcast.
And it's a real privilege today to be joined by the brilliant and wonderful AngelaMcDonald.
Now I've had the privilege of knowing Angela a few years now and she's a real tour deforce and an amazing lady that has driven change, not just in her current role, but in
(01:14):
many of the other roles that she has undertaken.
Her current role is that she is HMRC Revenue and Customs Deputy Chief Executive.
and second permanent secretary.
Gosh, that's quite a mouthful, Angela.
It is a hell of a title.
I know that you had life inside and outside of the public sector, but basically you're anoperations professional with 30 years worth of experience delivering transformational
(01:41):
change in both the public and private sector.
And I do mean transformational change, as you will hear this morning on this podcast.
I think, Angela, I'm right to say that you joined the Civil Service in 2009 and you have anumber of real areas of passion.
You worked in the Department of Work and Pensions and again, that was all about servicedelivery and transformation.
(02:03):
And you moved to HMRC.
That's a brave move, I think, in 2017 and became the Director General for Customer Serviceat that point.
But you've also had a huge legacy working with Aviva and other legacy companies prior tothat.
Angela, it is a real pleasure.
So thank you for taking some time to be with us today so that we can have a bit of a chatabout what's going on in your world and how we might be able to see things going forward
(02:30):
in the future.
So, Angela, tell us a little bit about yourself.
I've said more than enough, but tell us about your role, yourself, what drives you?
hi Jo, well thanks ever so much for inviting me, it's always wonderful to have a chance tocatch up with the fantastic work of you and the Institute.
So as you said, I'm an ops person by background, it's always been about delivery andoutcomes and making a difference and I've currently got the absolutely extraordinary
(02:56):
privilege of leading the 65,000 people who collect all of the money that pay for publicservices and
I always like to articulate it in that way rather than talking about being theorganisation that takes the money off people because actually without HMRC nothing happens
and all of that money that people contribute is funding all of the vital public servicesthat people need and rely on.
(03:21):
So it's an absolute privilege to be in HMRC.
And the other reason why I could get so excited about my job is that it's one of thebiggest organisations you can be a part of, 65,000 people.
But every citizen, every business, some of the biggest IT, some of the biggest dataholdings, I mean, if you want to do delivery at scale, not just HMRC, there are other
(03:44):
organisations, DWP was my prior one to this.
They're absolutely amazing organisations to be a part of and that's what sort of bouncesme out of bed every day because there's always a big challenge.
I also get the chance to represent us internationally and maybe people don't realise justthe high regard.
that we are held in places like HMRC are held in amongst our international taxpayers.
(04:05):
So I'm a very proud civil servant and I think my 20 years in the private sector I thinkactually have helped me be a better civil servant because actually that mix and that
diversity really adds value.
ability to learn from each other, I think is really, really important.
Totally.
Angela, something I was also very struck about, because back to your point about the sizeand the scale of HMRC, and I remember when I first met you, we talked about HMRC having a
(04:32):
lens or a view on...
where we are economically in terms of the UK, because we all know it as taking my taxes asan individual.
But actually, there's so many different divisions of HMRC.
So give me a little kind of sense of this barometer, because this sense of what is goingon in the UK, because you obviously have trade, you have the wider international piece
(04:56):
that you've been talking about.
So what's the state of when you look at what's going on?
across the UK at the moment.
How do you see the state of the economy and what are the kind of the bellwether measuresthat you can see?
So if we're importing more or exporting more, you see that, don't you?
If we're looking across different divisions, you will see the general health, if we'recollecting more tax in this area.
(05:19):
Where do you think we are at the moment, Angela, in terms of seeing the sense and theunderstanding of growth, I guess, in the UK, which is obviously everything that we're
trying to drive?
It's a challenge, isn't it?
Because as a good public servant, it's my job to manage the administration and not thepolitics and the economic policy.
But you're quite right.
We see the results of everything that's going on.
(05:42):
So we see how the house market moves because of what goes through on stamp duty.
We see what's going on with passing of wealth between generations because we see what'sgoing on through inheritance tax.
We see what's going on on trade because what we are managing the customs
border and we're managing the processes, the administration of the flow of trade insideand outside.
(06:05):
We're also seeing the growth in the tax base as earnings rise and therefore with staticallowances we're seeing people pass through.
We also run through child benefits so I'm also seeing what's going on with the state offamilies and who's claiming we look after tax-free childcare so we're also seeing the
health of the childcare sector.
(06:25):
So you know I said to you before
is that there's just so much stuff on the go.
Also, HMRC, the UK is part of a global tax environment and multinational organisations whoare in many, many jurisdictions and we manage the UK facets of those who are either UK
headquartered or are trading in the UK.
So we're seeing how money is moving between the different countries and internationalcooperation is absolutely vital for those massive MNEs.
(06:52):
It's one of the reasons why HMRC is so incredibly important, sort of at the heart ofgovernment, because we're not only the sort of the money movement, but we're also the
source of the data really, which allows the government to see so much of what is going on.
We are seeing more and more people brought into the tax system.
That's the result of policies of all the governments up to now.
(07:14):
So it's not a feature of this government in particular.
We are also seeing changes to the nature of debt.
and how speedily people are paying their taxes and our debt balance is larger post thepandemic than it was.
What's really intriguing there, talking to my international peers, is that's not a UKspecific phenomena.
(07:35):
Actually, many jurisdictions are seeing a strain on their economies and the attitudes topaying of tax debts sort of shift accordingly.
there's a lot that...
pumps through, that means you can get a real flavour for it by looking at the veryextensive statistics that HRC publishes on a very regular basis.
And I think that is really important, Angela, because it gives you a real sense of theimportance of HMRC and that opportunity to really drive better information, better data,
(08:03):
to be able to make more informed decisions as businesses, but also for government.
So I do think it's really helpful that you've explained all of that, because I didn'treally think about HMRC fulfilling that kind of role.
So thank you for sharing that side.
Now we're in a new year and I don't know about you, Angela, I'm not very good at newyear's resolutions.
(08:24):
But what do you think are the biggest external pressures facing organizations to improvetheir service offering in particular?
We can't get through any conversation at the moment without talking about AI.
And that's obviously has some huge opportunities and probably we're only really at thestart of our AI journey.
I can see in the UK CSI that customer service generally is under pressure.
(08:49):
And I'm sure you can see some of the external pressures facing organizations.
So what do you those are for any organization and particularly when we're trying toimprove or strive to improve our service offering?
As you said, you've got massive experience driving transformational change across a numberof hugely complex departments.
(09:10):
So what are the main external pressures?
And what advice, I suppose, would you give for any organisation that's trying to improvetheir operations more effectively?
What's really interesting is that from the people I talk to, and I mentioned before aboutinternational, I think there are massive issues in common.
Expectations are rising from the citizen.
(09:31):
Digital is great, but it raises massively the expectation of a timescale that says, we'llwrite back to you in a couple of weeks, which used to be fine.
No, no, I sent the email and I want my answer right now.
So massively rising expectations of the citizen.
And again, I don't think that's not a public sector question.
That's all of us.
I think that's moving.
And I also think that technology is definitely the route to solving some of theseproblems, but not for everybody.
(09:58):
mean, there are lots of private sector organizations that get to choose their customers.
You know, here is my service offer, and if that's not what you're after, go and findsomebody else.
In the public sector, I have to deal with all 70 million people, know, whatever is yourposition.
And I think that there is a real challenge in service about...
sectors of society feeling left behind by the digital revolution.
(10:20):
You know, they see that but actually technology feels scary.
The exploitation by scammers puts people off.
My parents are very resistant to tech, not because they're not digital savvy, they reallyare, but they are frightened of tech.
They are frightened of the risk of it.
So I think for service organizations, you've got the, who are my customers?
(10:43):
Their expectations are moving.
Money is tight, profitability, funding, there's a lot of pressure on the bottom line.
And then how am I managing to build trust and credibility?
How do I drive digital in a way that is safe and secure and can be trusted?
How do I make sure I don't leave behind other people who might be incredibly valuable tome?
(11:07):
I mean, as I say, for me in the public sector, it's literally everybody, but in a privatesector organization, you might have segments that you really want to stay as your...
customer group and you often then sat on top of many organizations are sat on top oflegacy technology where in order to get the benefits of all of this fantastic new stuff
you've got to seriously invest in modernizing and what tech do you back?
(11:31):
Are you at the cutting edge?
Are you a fast follower?
There are many people selling you the answers out of your piece and then where do get thefunding to invest in that?
So I think that as a service leader
that pace of change that is moving around you and then working out what's the rightstrategy for you and your customers and your organisations.
That's one of the real challenges that I think all of us who run these organisationsreally face.
(11:55):
I mean you'll see that I'm sure when you're talking to us around the Institute tablethere's lots we have in common and we're many grappling with some very similar sets of
board table decisions.
Totally.
And I was talking to my team actually earlier today and seeing it in sharp focus with my96 year old mum trying to navigate a very digital led world and how that can be very
(12:18):
positive, but also hugely excluding.
And I can only imagine, Angela, when you've got such a broad, not just range of customerscapabilities and interests and desires in terms of connecting with technology, but also
complexity of the issues and problems that they are having to grapple with.
Totally.
I people say, why can't you be more like Amazon?
(12:39):
There are lots of fantastic things about Amazon logistics business.
That is not the same as managing the complexities of your tax.
So there are definite things to learn from some of these great big digital businesses whohave been revolutionary and have done some fantastic stuff.
But that doesn't mean that that can be capable of being done across complex.
Transactions not just tax but a whole array of complicated offers that organisations make.
(13:04):
Humans still need to be in here somewhere, in the right place for your proposition.
Totally.
And you know that we would concur with that and we certainly see that across everyindustry sector as you were saying.
I also think, Angela, when we are designing this language really matters too, doesn't it?
It matters that we, and I know that you're a passionate advocate for this, but lookthrough the lens of the customer and walk through that in a way of really understanding.
(13:31):
If I think about the PowerSport office, they've done a brilliant job.
at ensuring that my passport delivered on time.
But that is because they have designed that journey and designed all those interactionswith the customer in mind and probably tested that to death.
So just thinking about HMRC and thinking about the transformation that you are driving orany of the projects that you have driven, any pearls of wisdom from you, Angela, that you
(13:57):
think, you know, I've stole something from you when you said, let's stop admiring theproblem and get going.
And I think that is a really impressive and an important thing to remember.
For any pearls of wisdom that you would have, that you think any organization really needsto think about, what would be your top tips?
So I think being really clear on what it is you want to offer and who you want to offer itto.
(14:22):
I mean, I know that might sound like a statement of the blindingly obvious, but when Ilook at some of my projects that succeed and some of them that don't, if you're not clear
enough at the top of the organisation about what's important, by the time it hastranslated itself down 14 layers and it's turned itself into a project, then...
(14:42):
you can end up with things delivering that you weren't expecting.
Also about your appetite for risk.
So I think there can be a real desire to say, I won't put it out till it's perfect.
Well, services need to iterate.
How do you manage that?
Do you have a really strong and clear view of what your technology is doing and not justbeing sold the latest idea by the latest person who's busy lobbying you trying to put, you
(15:08):
what's your long-term answer?
So
I think that clarity at the senior level about where are you going, who are you doing itfor and how are you going to go about it.
Again, as I say, teaching to suck eggs, but I'm amazed by how many times that kind ofmisses in some of those other things.
And then I think the other thing is about the permission to make the change.
(15:30):
So what do I mean by that?
So if you're a brand new entrant into a market, you've got no legacy, you're busy, you'rein there and you're trying to steal somebody else's market with
great and brand new ideas.
But if you are an existing organization and you're trying to change the way your customersinteract with you, now I'm in the fortunate position where my customers can't leave me,
(15:51):
but many organizations are not in there, then how do you make change and take thosecustomers and those colleagues with you?
And if you look back over the last 12, 18 months of HMRC on our digital journey, you saw areally interesting example there.
a really harsh example actually of where we didn't have the permission to go at the pacewe wanted to go.
(16:16):
And interestingly for us the learn was actually you've got to be delivering good analogservice to create the space for people to be prepared to go digital with you.
You can't digitize your way out of a bad position.
And again, if your customers can leave you or in my instance if your customers can voicematerial dissatisfaction then
(16:37):
How do you go about the change knowing that you have prepared the ground, knowing thatthey understand what you're doing and knowing that they can see that what you're doing is
in their best interests, not just yours.
And I think there are again, plenty of mistakes made and I can hold my hand up to ourswhere we weren't on top of the analog service and therefore people were just not
(16:58):
listening, not interested in the great things actually we were doing digitally.
So those will be my sort of array of
And I think all of that is brilliant insight.
But your last point, think, is really important actually, Angela, because if you aredelivering, as you said, a good experience, think we as customers and citizens understand
(17:20):
that things have to change and things have to move.
But if you've already got a good base, it's easier, isn't it, to kind of then explain whywe want to move to this next thing, why we're going to do this and what's in it for me as
a customer or a citizen.
And I think sometimes any organisation forgets that communication, that really importantbit of, well, getting it right first time anyway, but also once you've been able to be,
(17:45):
and by the way, that's not easy, but you know, once you've been able to do that, to buildon that and to seek permission.
I think it's a really interesting point, Angela, about I'm seeking permission to do thisbefore I do it to you.
It's about that dialogue.
It's about that conversation that we're having with customers.
Because I think most of us, if we are
explained why, know, explained to and understand far better about why we're trying to dosomething, but much more likely to accept it.
(18:11):
It's when we feel out of the loop, we don't understand, we feel alienated.
And I think there's a lot of lessons that any business can actually learn from that,particularly as we are about to step into even greater degrees of digitalization,
utilization of AI in the longer term robotics, biometrics, all of this stuff.
making sure we carry people with us through that journey, I think is going to beabsolutely critical.
(18:37):
Just on that, I know in an interview that you did with Civil Service World a couple ofyears ago, and again, this is a problem across public and private sector, and we've
certainly seen it at the Institute, but it's really hard to get people who have all theskills and the experience to do some of the really challenging jobs.
And given that we are probably still coming out of a nationwide skill shortage at themoment.
(19:01):
Do you feel that is still the case for HMRC and how are you going about addressing thatchallenge?
think you're right.
Skills and the changing nature of skills is again a challenge for any organisation and togive you a kind of a scale example just given our size we need to grow our compliance
(19:21):
capacity by a net 5,000 people to collect the money that we need to do but to get to thatI've got to recruit 12,500 new tax professionals in the next three years and
you know, there aren't those people out there.
We have to grow those people.
So I need to attract people who I have to convince a whole load of people that becoming atax professional is the career they want to have.
(19:44):
And I'm not sure many people go, mummy, when I grow up, I really want to be a taxprofessional.
So how do I make this seem like an exciting place that you want to A, do the task and B,grow your career?
So there are some particular niches of things which are a challenge for any organization,particularly for us.
But I think more
Broadly, we aren't top payers.
(20:05):
There is a massive competition for skills, particularly in technology and data and inservice design.
I think one of the things that an organisation has to work out is what's its offer?
Because if it's only money, then as soon as the next offer comes to that person, they'llbe off to somebody who's going to pay them more.
So you can't buy, in my view, can't buy long-term loyalties.
(20:27):
I mean, the money can help.
But you can't buy long-term loyalty simply by saying, well, we'll just throw money atpeople.
you know, for me, what's my offer?
Why would you want a career with me?
Well, my kind of pitch is if you want to be involved in some of the biggest and mostcomplex cyber, if you want to be on one of the biggest technology estates, if you want to
(20:48):
really cut your teeth on scale leadership and scale challenges, then public sector offersyou that kind of complexity, that kind of growth that you want.
And also there are lots of people for whom the belief that they're doing something thatmatters, that makes a difference.
And again, I'm not trying to say that the commercial environment doesn't matter because ofcourse it really does.
(21:08):
But there are people who are driven by public service and that as a part of what they wantto do.
And so I kind of need to hook into those.
But I also think things like we're being a very flexible employer.
We are UK wide.
So actually the biggest possible talent pool with the kind of offer that goes with
that, you know, I recognize that the whole working from home and flexible working is acontentious topic perhaps and has moved over time.
(21:35):
But actually, if you think about the kinds of people who we can bring into the workforcebecause we are offering flexibility, actually that increases the pool of talent.
So I think employers have got to be increasingly creative about who they attract.
And then I think actually you've also got to
(21:56):
be prepared to invest for the long term and grow the skills from the start.
So we know in digital we won't be able to buy some of the people that we need.
So we're investing in how we train them, how we grow them.
We know we'll lose some of those people to others, but how do we train?
So we've launched a number of new academies, also about apprenticeships.
How do we again get people in at the start of their careers and who might not stay withHMRC forever, but they might be excited by another part of the public sector.
(22:24):
You've got to work out what your offer is either at the beginning of somebody's career oras they go along.
And I'm an incredibly proud civil servant.
I think that actually there can be a negative narrative about the kind of things we do.
Actually, there are half a million people doing the broadest variety of things and it's agreat place to have a career.
(22:46):
But you want to be proud, don't you?
And I think we've got more to do to make people feel
proud to be civil servants and also to be viewed by the general public that we are peoplewho care and who work hard and who are doing everything that we can because that
reputation it'll be what turns people off us or might make them apply to us.
(23:06):
Indeed, and attracting the right level of skill, capability.
I you've touched on so many important things there.
I mean, you will know that our second pillar of the service nation is around theprofession and seeing customer experience and service as a profession.
And you also have touched on some key areas around purpose.
(23:29):
know, most people want to work for a purpose led organization.
And when you think about, you know, we started this
conversation around, you know, what's the purpose of HMRC and what's the purpose of thepublic sector more broadly.
I do think actually, Angela, that the sector could do more to promote some of thebrilliant work that actually it does, but also why this is so critical.
(23:55):
Again, you touched on the state of global environment.
I think it is really important that we...
in the UK stand proud about the service profession.
80 % of our GDP in the UK is generated through service.
Much of what goes on in the public sector is about service.
And as you said, you join that sector because you want to make a difference.
(24:18):
You join that sector because you're looking to serve the citizens around.
That doesn't mean that we do everything that the citizen needs.
We can't.
But actually, it does have a slightly different lens.
And I think that is very attractive.
think you're absolutely right.
I think the challenge for service professionals, I agree it's not necessarily seen as aprofession.
Many of these jobs are minimum wage jobs in all sorts of organisations, but yet that isthe face of your brand.
(24:44):
That is who it is that your customers will make or break whether or not they might buyfrom you again, is that person.
It is heartbreaking to see.
I know some of the work that the Institute has been driving about treating service peoplewith respect.
Some of the physical assaults in supermarkets and those kind of places.
There is something going on that I don't totally understand where the frustration of thecitizen, of some, a small number of citizens, is meaning that actually people are being
(25:13):
rude and physically rude to these people who, as I say, are trying desperately to deliver.
So there is a real...
Maybe I'm very biased because this is my career as being an ops person, but I think thatthe value and the effort and the contribution that is made by what is the face of the
(25:34):
brands that all organisations are doing, respecting that, investing in that, seeing thatas a career opportunity rather than just more resources.
There is more for all sectors to do in seeing the value add and also something more aboutthat story to the
consumer that says, you know, if you want to still have people doing these jobs with whomyou were interfacing, then there is an interesting thing about how the behavior puts
(26:00):
people off.
Who'd want to do this job?
Who wants to go work in a supermarket if what you're worrying about is getting assaultedby somebody?
I mean, we're going to get what we deserve as customers if we're not careful with thepeople who fulfill incredibly vital jobs.
Absolutely, Angela.
We have a phrase, you know, you've got to be a good customer as well as giving goodcustomer service.
You know, there's a level of respect that all of us need to be able to give to anyone thatactually is serving us.
(26:27):
And this is not about servitude.
It's a respected profession.
And also not just at the front line.
I mean, you talked about attracting people, training them, developing them.
As a tax advisor, you've got to have pretty good customer service skills, I would imagine.
And therefore seeing this career.
across the whole of the public sector because I think if you're in an operations role,whether you're a COO, whether you're a director general, everything comes through the lens
(26:54):
of how do we drive this to make it effective for the organization, but also to be able todeliver for the citizen and the consumer.
And therefore having the right skills of curiosity, empathy, thinking outside of the box,joining all of those things up.
I think that's another reason why a career in
the public sector could be so exciting because you can touch on all parts, as we said, oflife.
(27:20):
And again, think really trying to leverage that more.
I agree, I think there is a bigger opportunity for us to tell our story.
know, can, if you're interested in the weather or space or the environment or welfare orlegal or you're a technology person or you're an HR professional, know, pretty much
(27:40):
anything you want to do, there is a civil service job, I sound like a job advert here, buthonestly, anything you want to do the civil service can offer it to you.
You know, you can be working on...
managing royal events.
mean there's literally everything on the go and again we don't tell that story well enoughand there's definitely an opportunity to do so I think.
And I think there's a bigger bit for the Institute as well in terms of, I you touched onthe Service with Respect campaign, but also the service profession.
(28:03):
And that's something that the Institute, we're going to be keen to continue to drive quitehard over the next two or three years, actually, until we get there, until people see
service as something that I'm going to stay in as well, because that is, it's not justabout doing it until something else comes along.
It's about staying in it, growing in it, and actually achieving the level of roles that,like yourself, have achieved, Angela.
(28:26):
You you wouldn't have achieved that if you hadn't come from a background that was curious,that was service led and really asked those knotty and difficult questions so that we can
resolve those problems.
And we need curious people.
We need people that are challenging and keen to make sure that we drive thoseimprovements.
And I know, Angela, because I know you really well, you've been such a campaigner forthat.
(28:48):
And that is so, so important to help people in very senior roles within the civil servicethat really care as much as you do.
and I take my hat off to you.
The thing in public sector is you've got to be very self driven.
So if you're in the private sector, you've got competitors.
So you've got customers who can leave you.
They've got new entrants to the market all the time.
You've got people innovating.
(29:08):
You've got people pushing the boundaries.
In the public sector, I don't have any competitors and my customers can't leave me.
Okay.
So in order to drive transformation, you know, it's always our job to deliver what thegovernment of the day wants.
But a lot of it is about you've got to be perpetually dissatisfied.
And I don't mean that in a destructive way.
I mean, you've got to create your own competitors.
(29:31):
You've got to drive your own better ifs and mores and could it be different and what doesthe data tell us?
So we've got to sort of self-generate that people snapping at our heels piece in thepublic sector.
And it's really important that we do that.
Otherwise we don't move.
Because as I say, our customers can't leave us.
Yes, absolutely.
(29:51):
And I was going to ask you actually, as somebody that's had a career that's spanned bothprivate and public sectors, what lessons can each learn from the other?
And I think it's interesting what you're saying about that curiosity, that self-imposeddesire to make it better is a key driver, not because you want to make more profit, but
because actually you can see a better way of doing things.
(30:14):
And the public sector, I think, has such a huge opportunity.
Challenges, yes, because of the complexity and the broad range of different customerswhich we've touched on, but actually the better side of that is you don't have an investor
or a shareholder that is very interested in very short-term returns.
So there are pros and cons, aren't there, Angelo?
(30:34):
Well, we do have a treasury who's very focused on ensuring that we are the most efficientin the tight environment.
I I think that when I compare public and private sector, actually, when I first joinedafter 20 years in financial services, I thought, gosh, this is going to be completely
different.
I was really amazed at how weirdly the same it was.
(30:56):
So you're running tech, you are trying to deliver service, you have got cyber, you've got
people, recruitment and engagement issues.
The running of big ops, there is an awful lot that is the same.
Whatever your big ops is, whether I'm processing tax cases or you're processing pensionsales or whatever it is that you're driving, know, probity and control over your money and
(31:20):
your ledgers, you know, there's a whole load of things which are exactly the same.
And I think that what I have increasingly noticed over my time is that there is
and increasing interchange.
So if you looked across my senior team, you would see a load of people with a privatesector background who have been in and out of both sectors.
(31:41):
And I think there might be a kind of a perception that people stay in their lane.
know, private sector people stay in the private sector and public sector people stay inthe public sector.
But actually, I think my view over this last sort of five years plus is that that's reallyaltering and that you are seeing it.
Now, again, back to my
I don't have competitors.
(32:02):
That fresh thinking that comes in with people who other life experiences, who have workedin other organizations who have got different markets or different customers, that's what
brings some more fresh thinking to the table.
So I think that certainly at the delivery end, at my end of it, this divergence of theseare two sectors and never the twain shall meet is actually not what I experience.
(32:26):
And
Ministers are very keen to ensure that best practice is shared and that things arereviewed and challenged.
And we should welcome that because we face some very big challenges and the more help wecan get and the more help we can interchange.
But equally going the other way, I face some bigger challenges that many organizationsdon't have the experience or the capacity for.
(32:49):
So we've got lots of things we can share back the other way.
So it should be a mutually positive environment.
Because as I say, there's more that's the same than is different in my experience.
I concur completely.
The privilege of my role is that I get to work with lots of different industries and lotsof different sectors.
We've already touched on the fact that the things that keeping most CEOs and senior peopleawake at night are the same.
(33:12):
You know, there will be culture, will be efficiencies, there will be about deployment oftechnology, they're about the skills agenda, they're about making sure that we are able to
manage all of our stakeholders.
And actually, it's another great advert for why a service-related role is such a great wayof doing that, because the lessons that you can learn from different industry sectors are
(33:32):
applicable wherever, in terms of delivery of that service experience.
The context will be different, but the actual lessons that we can learn from that and howwe do, I think, are very, very similar.
But let's go back to the tech bit, because the public sector recently has been very vocalabout being able to try and be more efficient.
(33:53):
And I'm just going to give my concerns slightly, if I was honest.
And it goes back to your point about making sure we don't leave anyone behind.
I'm a big believer in tech.
I'm a big believer.
And I think we're just at the beginning of AI.
But one of the things I think we need to really think about is how we integrate that in away that is effective for all, not just for those that can, so that we carry everyone.
(34:19):
And actually, I still think that's quite a big issue in the private sector as well.
if we want to be able to make sure that we're a really service led country, which isreally important, I think, for our future.
So how are you deploying and what lessons have you mentioned that about making sure youget your analog right before you apply your digital aspect to it?
(34:39):
But is there any things that you're applying in terms of emerging technologies that youthink will be revolutionary for the service levels that HMRC are able to give?
We have actually as HMRC been using AI for a very long time, not large language models,but using technology.
Because if you think about the level of data that we have, we can have a lot of data andnot a lot of insight, okay, if you're not careful.
(35:06):
And I need to look at data in order to be able to spot where the compliance problems are,add various things together to show me where it is that businesses or individuals are not
being compliant, where I need to be pointing my investigative activity.
So we've been
doing that on compliance targeting, on document analysis, on debt risk predictions, onanalyzing customer behavior.
(35:30):
So that kind of bit that helps the colleague see the wood for the trees, if you like, Ithink that technology is an absolute game changer in that space.
In helping see connections which a human could not be able to see the patterns in thedata.
so that you end up getting sharper and more precise and more focused on the interventionsthat you are making.
(35:55):
So I think that there is there we've been doing that for a long time and as the tools aremodernizing that is an area where we keep investing because the sharper and more precise
we can help to see through and into that massive data the more operationally effectivethat.
we can be.
So that's a big area.
And again, other organizations may well have their own version of that, but know, Wood forthe Trees is a massive opportunity.
(36:22):
I think also back to the Wood for the Trees at the other end is there's more informationavailable for the citizen than ever there was, but actually that doesn't make it easier to
know what's going on.
It just means that when you put something into Google and up pop 400 searches with a wholeload of documents.
all, you know, and how do you know
(36:42):
What's your trusted source of information if you're the citizen?
How are you tackling that?
And I think that as sort of chat bots move into more and more sophisticated, I mean, we'vebeen doing sort of natural language and chat bots, structured chat bots again for a long
time.
About 60 % of some of the stuff that we do at the minute that goes through the chat botthat goes into our web chat, the chat bot is happily answering the question and the
(37:06):
customer is happy with the answer.
But the more complicated the question,
the more sophisticated the tech has got to be.
And again, the large language models, as long as you're careful the data it's using it,that it's taking its insight from, that offers you an opportunity to really help your
customers see the wood for the trees.
Again, because there's so much information, how do you get that kind of trusted source?
(37:31):
And again, we've been doing that.
I think the other area is things like efficiencies.
So if you're on that call back to, want good analog services, then...
things like small things like call wrap up or updating all the systems when you've put thecustomer's phone down, summarization of the call.
Again, new tech offers the opportunity and it's only, you know, 30 seconds of call, 60seconds of call, but you add that up over my 35 million phone calls a year and that's lot,
(37:58):
there's a lot of saving.
So I think that there are real opportunities, know, things we have been doing, but thereare real opportunities to keep going.
I think the risk about it,
is the risk on your technology about the ethics about where decision making is made.
Is the country ready for actually that tax decision that said that you owed me some moneythat actually technology made that decision and not a person?
(38:23):
Okay.
So you get into the just because you can, should you?
And I think the answer to that depends very much on your organization and what's theproposition you're offering to the customer.
But I think that the tech together with the trust
and the ethics and the safety and security have got to go hand in hand.
(38:43):
This can't just be, we can save a whole load of money, let's just roll the tech out.
There's definitely loads you can do with the tech, but as a senior team, I think you'vegot to have all the other bits in sight.
And we have a professional standards committee that at which we discuss specifically theethics question of, because we can, should we?
(39:05):
And some of the answer is yes, and some of the time the answer is,
No, actually, that is not the right thing to do to preserve trust and transparency andcredibility with the citizen.
it's not a straight, this is just not a tech play in my view.
completely agree.
And what you're talking about is responsibility.
What you're talking about is good governance.
The role that the customer has as part of that, which again comes back to the view that,you know, customer service isn't just about operational delivery.
(39:33):
When we're thinking about developing systems capability, when we're thinking about ouroffering, when we're thinking about what we're here to do, walking that through the lens
of the customer and deciding whether that is the right thing to do has become Angela.
I think one of the most important and as we see 2025 unfold, I think will become even moreimportant.
(39:55):
It's not just about doing the delivery, it's about making sure we're doing it for theright reasons.
I can see that in all of our data in the UK CSI, in much of our research, howorganisations deploy what they are doing to make sure that it is the right thing to do.
I think we'll ensure we stay on the right path and if we don't,
(40:17):
Angela, then we can get ourselves in some very scary places.
Angela, I know that you are tight on time, so I'm just going to wrap up very shortly withjust a couple of final questions.
I am delighted that you are Vice President of the Institute.
Has that in any way, I'm hoping the answer is that is yes, but how then should I say hasthat influenced your approach to service leadership within HMRC?
(40:40):
It's great privilege to be a part of the Institute because it allows me an easy way totalk to my peers.
You know, I said earlier about the common experiences.
There is so much good stuff that goes on in all sorts of organisations.
And the thing which I really value about the community of the leaders who are part of theInstitute is the generosity with which people share their insights.
(41:05):
You know, we're mainly in sectors where we're not competing against each other and
there is a massive commonality of the problems we face, of the solutions.
there are so many things where people have had a go at something, which you might notautomatically think I could deploy in a tax environment, but it just tweaks an idea or
pulls a thread of a thought that you can then go off and drive through.
(41:29):
And I think that makes a difference.
Also, sometimes it can be immensely reassuring because sometimes I sit with my problemgoing flipping heck.
This isn't good and it's only happening to me.
It can be incredibly reassuring to understand that actually the citizen behaviour or theoutcome we're seeing is not a direct consequence of something HMRC has done on its own.
(41:49):
It's actually something we're seeing more broadly across a variety of landscapes.
So it gives me a sort of an easy touchstone to contextualise some of what I might beseeing.
And I think that being at the top of any organisation can be a very lonely place and
The opportunity to be part of a community of other people in those roles and get that, asI say, that kind of push, reassurance, pull adds real value.
(42:17):
Well, I'm delighted to hear that.
And you're right, the community that the Institute is able to bring together is veryimportant to us too.
And we don't take that lightly.
We're very fortunate to have some very senior people like yourself and to the contributingto the future of service.
So within that context, final last question, what change would you like to see businessleaders implement today that can really impact the future of customer service?
(42:45):
You're only allowed one.
So what would that be?
What's your pearls of wisdom to any business leader?
think it goes back to something I said earlier which is about your investment andconfidence and the status of the people who are at the very front of your organisation.
So those people often minimum wage employees who are the face of your brand I think thatthose people are having to change their skills.
(43:11):
They are working in a digital world.
They are having to keep pace with your new offer, your new tech, your new ways of workingthat you're trying to
drive and I think that there is a risk that we get very focused on the technology which isincredibly important and we lose the sense that those frontline people, matter even if
(43:34):
you've got less of them than you had before, they remain the humanity of yourorganisation.
We've always needed to do that but I think that there is a risk that we forget thosepeople, we leave those people behind as part of our transformation.
So for me
I think the future success relies on the same thing as the past success, which is goodquality service delivery professionals who make sure that your brand is delivering every
(44:03):
single second of every single day.
Angela MacDonald, it's absolute pleasure as always to have an opportunity to spend sometime with you and your insights and wisdom are always very, very welcome.
Thank you so much for your time today.
You take care and thank you to all our listeners as well.
Angela, we'll speak soon.
Thank you.
(44:24):
next day.
I always thoroughly enjoyed catching up with Angela and personally I find her passion forher role and how it supports the UK to be very contagious and I hope that you did too.
Join us next time on Course Anonics where I have the privilege of chatting to the CEO ofHome Improvement Giants, Wix, about what keeps David awake at night in such a competitive
(44:46):
sector and how he's trying to drive innovation and change to ensure that the homeimprovement world is seen in a better and stronger light.
Until then, please go safely.
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