October 22, 2024 • 50 mins
Join The Institute of Customer Service CEO Jo Causon as she chats with the Financial Times' consumer editor Claer Barrett, who discusses the impact of poor service from both a consumer and a business lens.
Music copyright: Kevin MacLeod
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hello everyone and a very warm welcome back to another episode of Corson and the Customer.
Our weekly podcast discussing all things customer service and effective businessleadership was some of the most knowledgeable on the subject.
Last week we had the insightful and absolutely wonderful Chris Pitt, CEO of First Direct,to give us a leader's perspective.
(00:28):
And this week we have something a little bit different.
I'm very excited to introduce our guest, who many of you may already know from her work asconsumer editor at the Financial Times, where she frequently advises on personal finance
and consumer affairs.
Or you may know her from her fantastic book, What They Don't Teach You About Money.
(00:51):
And you may have even heard from her on the radio, where she is a regular guest on NickFerrari's show on LBC.
Claer Barrett joins me today.
and we discuss the current outlook from the perspective of the consumer, the significantchallenges faced by businesses in a volatile economic climate, and what steps business and
(01:12):
government can do to start improving things.
So a very warm welcome everybody to today's podcast and I am super excited because today Iam joined by the renowned and brilliant journalist Claer Barrett.
Well it's true Claer so we're very lucky and it's not very often I get to be able to turnthe tables and be the journalist so I'm particularly excited to be here.
(01:41):
No need to be scared.
But Claer is consumer editor and columnist at the Financial Times and she took thatposition in 2020.
But she is an amazing journalist that actually spans both the consumer press but also thebusiness press.
And that's really quite interesting in terms of a combination.
Writes the weekly serious money column and presents the FT's money clinic.
(02:06):
Aside from that, I don't really get much time aside from that, but I know that you are aregular commentator generally about consumer and financial affairs across a whole range of
media, radio and TV.
And you are also a regular attendee at the Nick Ferrari breakfast show where you do thebig spot, I think, on consumer affairs, but also business and the impact of financial
(02:29):
services.
And on Wednesdays and Fridays we go through the big business stories and of course many ofthe ones that interest me are the ones with a consumer.
Yeah, and then I'm also on the rain on Wednesday mornings on ITV, slightly differentaudience, but again, talking about finance, consumer issues and how they impact that
(02:50):
audience.
So it's great to be able to speak to such a wide spectrum of consumers from, you know, thevery wealthy, nice readers of financial times, all the way down to people who
to catch me on the radio or maybe want to improve their finances and they're listening tothe Money Clinic podcast.
But the best thing about it all, Jo, is that I hear from all of them.
(03:13):
People message me on Instagram, I'm at Clebby, if you want to follow me on all of thesocial media platforms.
And I would say one of the best and most valuable parts of my job is hearing from ordinarypeople about how they think the companies and the financial companies in particular
servicing them could be doing a better job.
Which is brilliant.
And so, and we're definitely going to talk about that because I'm really interested inunderstanding what customers and consumers are saying and whether that's consistent, you
(03:43):
whether it's got worse care, you know, are there particular themes?
Because I think this is really important because obviously this podcast will go out tolots of our listeners who are businesses.
So it's great to have you to do that.
And also I do want to give a bit of a plug for your book.
Because I think this was also very important because your book is what they don't teachyou about money So I think that would be very interesting too because we have got a big
(04:06):
issue in the UK about You know funny relationship with money.
Sometimes we're a bit scared about it Sometimes we perhaps don't manage that as well as wepossibly can we were talking earlier about the different personalities that you talk about
in the book about in terms of are we certain characters
Certainly it's been good for a lot of financial businesses that UK consumers are not thesavviest when it comes to their own finances, in Upshirt and not being able to feel
(04:33):
empowered enough to make a decision works very well for them often, know, slashing savingsrates or whacking up mortgage rates that not bring well for us.
And also on that, ultimately I might argue Claer, that in the long term it's not good forbusiness either.
No.
Because obviously if we want to try and grow the agenda, we want more people to be moreconfident about what they're doing with their money, how they spend it, whether it's worth
(04:57):
it making all of those trade-offs and decisions.
I think we definitely should talk about that.
But let's start with...
What is going on in the consumer landscape and how's that?
If you think about the issues and challenges that people are raising with you, what's thebiggest bug there, Claer?
Well, you very kindly helped me write an enormous article in the FT nearly six months agonow, which basically said customer service, can it get any worse in the UK?
(05:27):
And that was really inspired by the fact that I just was finding everyone I was talking toand all of the aspects of my various different jobs and different hats.
I was just coming across people who were fighting these seemingly never-ending battleswith different companies, whether it was an energy firm, a broadband company, they were
(05:49):
having a dispute with a clothing retailer about a return that had actually haven't beenreceived, wouldn't be refunded, a credit card company, somebody who had done them a bad
deal, they were fearful about negotiating with their mortgage lender with rates shootingup.
All over the place, customer service just seemed to...
have died death.
(06:09):
It just wasn't a feature of the landscape anymore.
And a few months before I wrote that huge investigation in the FT, I'd done a piece aboutJohn Lewis, one of Britain's best loved retailers, but also a really good example, along
with British Airways perhaps, being another one, of brands that we have held in highesteem and seen as a premium and better at customer service perhaps than the rest of the
(06:34):
market after the pandemic really start to
disappoints our expectations and the volume of feedback after writing these articles,emails from FTB does messages on Instagram from people who'd see my posts about all of
this.
I don't think I've ever had more feedback on another topic and I write about a lot ofstuff and it just really hit a nerve that customer service needs to improve across the
(07:03):
whole gamut of consumer facing.
businesses in the UK that people have had enough they don't want to be palmed off with anelectronic chatbot and also one of the most surprising bits of research I think that you
have produced around a third of us are prepared to pay more if we get better customerservice which was one of the key takeaways of it.
(07:26):
Absolutely and thank you for quoting that and you're absolutely right.
Yeah and that's been very consistent actually Claer so we've been tracking that so evenpre and
actually during the pandemic and since it's actually gone up.
from, you know, in terms of how many of us are prepared to pay more.
So we've got, and again, the UK CSI is also demonstrating that customer service isdefinitely under pressure.
(07:51):
And if you think about what people were complaining about or what consumers are findingdifficult, if you had to summarize that.
in terms of talking to the business community, what are the top things that really seem tobe irritating people?
Well, I think it all boils down to one thing, which is are we getting value for money?
(08:12):
We've had the pandemic, a huge financial shock, then we've had the cost of living crisis,inflation prices soaring, everything becoming more and more un-affordable.
And as a consumer, you know, you're looking at every single outgoing and whatever it isfrom car insurance to the price you're paying for your groceries, your rent, your
(08:32):
mortgage, everything is going up at once.
And the thing that hasn't been going up.
of course, is people's pay packets, although we're seeing a of a delayed effect, thankgoodness, coming through now.
So if a retailer or a service business is going to compete to get you to spend yourhard-earned with it, you want to make sure that you're getting a good bang for your buck.
(08:58):
Are you getting good value?
And there are lots of ways that consumers have felt they've either been getting
Poor service, poor value, disputes over pricing levels.
We can talk bit later maybe about loyalty cards and how you basically need one now to dothe grocery shop or you're going to get ripped off in my humble opinion.
(09:21):
But what really has made consumers angry is that if they want to complain about the waythat they've been
treated, the price rises, been foisted upon them, poor service they think they'vereceived.
It seems to be much, much harder now to actually speak to.
(09:41):
a human being who can actually do something about their problem and resolve it.
Now, an awful lot of the need to speak to customer service agents, especially with themore financial companies, is financial distress.
We've got, I think, nearly £3 billion earned now of bad energy debt in system.
(10:01):
Now, that hasn't gone away, even though people might be feeling bit more rosy-tinted aboutthe economic prospects and inflation falling.
Lots of the energy companies, their helplines are going to be stuffed with people justsaying, I can't afford to pay the bill.
And they don't really have an answer for that other than refer them to debt managementservices.
(10:21):
Meanwhile, people who want to get through to talk about power outage or the fact that theydon't understand their bill, having to wait longer and longer periods of time, that seems
to be a theme that you've picked up in your research too.
A number of complaints have risen.
The amount of time it takes to resolve it.
complaints is also rising.
(10:41):
And then you get the feeling that firms are not being entirely honest, customers think,with how they log complaints.
If they don't log it as a complaint, then maybe they don't have to deal with it.
And this just general handing off, outsourcing of customer service, seeing it as a costrather than as a retention tool and something that's vital to keep that relationship
(11:07):
between.
the customer and the business flowing and to convince me to spend more money with them.
Yeah, so quite a lot in there, Claer, but I think there's some interesting themes and wecertainly see some of those key aspects coming up in our research.
the first piece really about complaints, you know, and the choice, you know, do I havechoice that I can talk to a human being?
(11:28):
And we certainly see that the number one request in the UK CSI is when things go wrong,can I talk to a human being?
As I guess technology improves, as AI improves, you know, it's not necessarily a need totalk to a human being.
It's about
the frustration about getting my issue resolved.
It's often quite a simple question.
Yeah.
(11:49):
The chatbot doesn't know.
Yes, how to deal with that.
And I think certainly our first generation chatbots, when we talked about this, as youkindly mentioned before, have not, they have disappointed.
AI is cutting up, the speed of that is definitely improving.
And we talk a lot about a blended approach towards the customer experience.
Because the other side of this is that, as you mentioned, that costs for consumers havegone up, costs for businesses have gone up.
(12:14):
Yes, yes.
There's always a bit of a trade off, but we also know that there's no excuse for not beingable to deliver against the things that you have promised.
So as an organization, if you promise to deliver something, then you actually have to hitthat within one of the SLAs that you have set.
And I think that's where a frustration comes.
(12:34):
And what you're talking about, I agree with Claer, where if an organization has promisedto do this within a particular timeframe to the quality of the goods and services and then
disappoints us, and then we can't get hold of them, that...
absolutely is a big issue and certainly will drive down customer satisfaction levels.
So I think there's that bit about being able to be responsive, the bit about choice andwe're big components about trying to find that opportunity.
(13:02):
Some of us are quite happy to self-serve, some of us if the journey goes I mean I was inrenewing my passport, unbelievable service, you I didn't touch a human being.
But I went in on the Monday and within a week, my, you know, online on Monday, within aweek, my passport's back through the door and they tracked that and they told me
everything and every single stage of that.
(13:23):
So that was a brilliant use of technology being able to deliver.
The other point that you've raised, and I think this is a really, goes to a hub of this,about trust, you know, and do I feel that this organization's ripping me off or not
telling me the truth?
And in the last UK CSI, we've definitely seen that, the relationship between do I trustthis organization?
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Do I think that this organization cares about me?
Are they operating in an ethical way?
And I really think that businesses not only should be thinking about their transaction,does the process work and does Claer or Jo get their passport or their doughnut or
whatever we're buying, but how we do that.
And I think there's a big thing that businesses have to think about, Claer.
(14:11):
And if you think about what was going on in the financial services side at the moment, I'dbe really interested in is there anything that you're seeing that you think that's good?
And actually that would really help to improve trust and try to improve the relationshipthat we're having as consumers with businesses.
(14:32):
mean the great irony of course of anyone experiencing financial distress, the last peoplealmost they're going to fave for help are the companies that they owe the money to, you
very understandably, which you think well you know they might cut me off, might close downmy...
There's all sorts of other things going on for them too, isn't there?
In terms of feeling embarrassed or awkward or all sorts of stuff.
(14:56):
So we've seen some banks, interestingly, in the world that comes top.
If your customers send this poll, First Direct, they took a very different approach.
And around a year ago, they started making outbound calls.
Very rare for a bank to make, which is something I say about fraud all the time.
Banks failing you up always question whether it really is them.
(15:17):
But nevertheless, First Direct have been reaching out to customers who they can see fromthe data.
They're in financial distress, they've had refused payments.
have not got so much money coming in as they used to perhaps and have said how can we helpyou and actually the CEO said once you get past that initial barrier of I'm in trouble the
(15:38):
bank are failing up people are very receptive to receiving help because they don't reallyknow who else to turn to and there is so much that banks can do in terms of helping people
to
sort their financial lives out, be more organised.
There are some problems that are obviously beyond the bank's control, but it's just havingthat ability to say, contact us, we're here, we're ready to talk.
(16:02):
We've seen it with the mortgage lenders, the big hike up in mortgage rates after the minibudget, people having payment shock, rolling off low rates onto higher ones.
Communication, even if you're in a tight spot, is always going to get you a better resultthan just ignoring.
know, the red builds, all the letters.
And I think we really have seen firms make a concerted effort to look at the ways thatthey can speak to customers.
(16:26):
I heard that one mortgage company was offering to talk to customers on WhatsApp.
And I think there were regulatory problems with that in the end.
But if you think about it, that's how many younger people prefer to communicate.
know, find it difficult to get people on the phone sometimes because they'd rather doemails.
A consistent frustration from FT readers was the fact that you can't email companies.
(16:51):
That seems to be a channel of communication that suits us because we could maybe email atthe evening or the weekend to say could you look into this problem for me.
They don't want to have the burden of them having to respond so you've got to go throughthis system where you're either in a chat or a queue and you're hanging on and hanging on
and I hear so much from people who are just not in jobs where
(17:12):
They can do that.
can their mobile phone on hold playing with Aldi next to them for an hour while they geton with other tasks.
I mean try doing that if you're a school teacher.
And also, and I think you raised a really important point, and again, the Institute woulddefinitely support that, about channel of choice.
if we have an issue, definitely as customers and consumers, our channel of choice is veryoften email, because it's also trackable and we have that audit trail, that I sent you
(17:38):
this, and it's just easier, isn't it, in terms of that piece.
I think it's also really interesting that you talked about what good practice looks like.
And again, we've seen this not just in financial services sectors.
where organisations genuinely outreach and say look are you okay we've noticed this it'snot seen as an intrusion it's actually seen as helpful advice and support because the
(18:02):
company is no longer faceless it's you know it's that opportunity to engage so that's areally good point
not what we're doing.
It's not often the banks impress me.
It's usually the reverse.
But one topic that I've started writing about more recently is neurodiversity.
Lots of people at the heckles get up and they say, ADHD, it's an invented condition andanybody could go get diagnosed with it.
(18:25):
To which I say, you know, rubbish.
I'm sorry, trying to think of a child who's been diagnosed with ADHD and then come backand say the same thing.
But Molso is one bank that has been looking at how it can develop services
that will help people who are neurodiverse better manage their finances.
It's quite a large set of problems stemming from what I could describe as kind oforganisational issues.
(18:56):
People who are neurodiverse unfortunately are much more prone to impulse spending forexample, but also just not being able to organise
their finances in a way that they pay bills on time, often get hit with late payments.
Services could be developed that would actually be an improvement, not just for thosecustomers, of course, but for many other people.
(19:20):
And one of the ones that really impressed me, as well as being able to control what sortof marketing messages you want to receive, you can switch off all messages about
borrowing.
For example, if you think you were pretentious, you can opt out of overdrafts.
They've looked at things that small business owners struggle with.
One of those is putting the money aside to pay tax bills.
So if you want on the Monzo Pro Business account, you can pay a little bit money everymonth for this service.
(19:46):
You set the percentage level and every single payment that you have coming into yourbusiness account, will automatically deduct a slice of that payment and put it in what's
called a tax pot.
So you can save it up to pay your tax bill in January or your year end falls.
it's innovations like that.
They don't cost the company.
any money really to do other than the innovation needed to think of it but they'relistening to their customers and they're saying what kind of digital services could we
(20:12):
provide that would actually make your life easier and what's more make it easier for youto run your business to run your life without having to remember to allocate a few pots of
money around and I just think that that is the most brilliant example.
I couldn't agree more.
there's a couple of bits in that in terms of lessons or learnings also for other sectors,because what you clearly articulated, Claer, is thinking about the customer in the round.
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not just thinking about that as a transaction, but thinking about what the hell is goingon in this customer's life?
What are the kind of the main pain points for them?
And anything that we can do, because we've never got enough time, have we?
I mean, there's a really interesting issue at the moment, I think, that we're all short oftime.
we're all running from one thing to another.
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And technology has been brilliant in terms of helping some of that, know, instant.
But instant is also causing other issues or challenges for us because we're expectingeverything to be instant and now we're having to deal with that hamster.
So where organisations are thinking a bit more broadly about what's going on in mycustomer's life, the customer journey and being able to support some of those things,
(21:27):
again,
that really helps on a whole host of levels.
It helps brand loyalty, I'm much more likely to stay with this organisation because theycare about me back to that other point.
But it also probably reduces the issues and problems in another part of society.
Because it's not a massive shock, it, when I've got to pay my tax bill because I'veactually got this pot here that's thinking about it.
And also word of mouth.
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I'm talking about it.
Quite a few people I've mentioned this to said, I'm going to move my account to Monzo.
That's a genius idea.
And it's probably something that in time, the other banks will copy because Monzo,Starlink, the other digital banks, Chase, they all offer this ability now to set up
different pots so you can separate cash and align it towards different goals.
(22:07):
And I've got one where I save up a certain amount of money every month to pay on.
car insurance is just one of those things.
A few years ago it was 400 quid.
It's like, yeah, exactly.
And if you've got a nice motor, mean, my goodness, if you drive a Land Rover Discovery,able to get insured at all.
(22:30):
There's a whole story about that actually, because apparently they're the most stolenparts and bits for Russia.
So that's one of the reasons why they're such an expensive insurance, because they'rebeing stolen and shipped out to Russia for parts.
But any kind of innovation that helps people to get a better handle on their finances, tofeel empowered to deal with their finances.
(22:55):
Because one of the most talked about financial personalities in my book is the ostrich.
The person who buries their head in the sand when it comes to trouble.
And I freely admit that in my student days, I was an ostrich.
And I'm happy to admit that because I'm obviously now not an ostrich.
there's also people.
Not only that Claer, it's enabled you to write the book and also understand what it'slike.
(23:20):
absolutely.
And that's an interesting word, empathise or empathy.
know, again going back to where organisations I think do well is when they genuinelyconnect and they can empathise, which is another aspect around having the right people.
you know, are empowered enough to be able to make, when you've got that complex issue orproblem, they know what they're talking about, they're empowered to make the decision.
(23:44):
You don't have to wait, you know, for ages.
So that sense of being able to be connected to the organization, either through the staffand colleagues that are serving you, but also having empathetic IT.
And I think we're still a bit of a way from that, but it's getting better.
It's getting more intuitive and being able to drive that.
(24:04):
So tell me a bit about the...
What are the personalities?
I'm really interested in kind of feeling what personality I might be.
Okay, well we've covered the ostrich, very important.
I should say...
as a caveat, most people are a bled, they've got elements of different personalities.
So the spendy Wendy.
I try to think of a man's name that where I'm with spendy.
(24:25):
It's not a slight on women, but people who just feel as soon as they've got money in theirpocket, they want to spend it.
Exactly.
I also have a tendency towards that at certain times.
Then on the other side, we've got the goblin, the person who hauls their gold.
It's very, very cautious about either spending any of it,
(24:45):
but also investing it, which can be a big problem.
The spreadsheet slave I came up with, a man at one of my book events came up to me andsaid, I am a spreadsheet slave and I have got a spreadsheet of every single piece of money
I've spent since the late 1980s.
My wife wants to divorce me because I've been paid to go on a holiday.
And I said, listen, book the holiday.
(25:08):
It will be cheaper than the divorce.
So I hope he did, but it's all about control.
you know, if they can control every aspect of their finances, it's that maybe making upfor the lack of control elsewhere, but also it's stopping them from living in the here and
now, because it's all about the balance.
The YOLO, you only live once, that's one that I put in just because I meet so many youngpeople who think, I'm never going to be able to afford to save up to buy a property,
(25:35):
particularly in London and the Southeast, so I'm going to invest it all in crypto.
you know, the, to the move.
That's the only way I can get rich quick by taking some huge gamble.
That's something that worries me intensely about the younger generation because life isjust so...
And certain.
And also certain.
(25:56):
and frankly the career prospects you know what you would earn now as a journalist at anentry level you know whoever's listening to this podcast you think about your job what you
were paid when you started from university and what we're paying graduates now thedifference is not all that great you know wages for younger people have been going
backwards at a time when living costs have been going up and all of them
(26:20):
privileges that we had, know, traveling on a shoestring.
mean, I'm a member of the EasyJet generation when I was at university.
I can remember saying, oh, come on, we've the last bit of the student lane left.
We can get a flight to Rhin for a level.
The next day, you know, we'd be off, you we're trying to really squeeze the most out oflife.
(26:40):
And we felt optimistic about our prospects.
We had a lightness of being, as one of my friends had said, that generations comingthrough.
don't for various reasons.
So lots and lots of different financial personalities, but basically how to maybe applythem a little bit to the types of consumer in the market.
I I think the dominant type of consumer now is very much the value seeker.
(27:05):
And by value seeking, I don't mean necessarily the person who buys everything in our deal,although the budget supermarkets have done fantastically well.
I mean the kind of person who will not buy anything unless it's on a deal or on a discountor they can get
they've compared multiple product services and looked that through.
(27:28):
Lots of research, fantastic app if you're a supermarket deal spotter, trolley.co.uk, I'lltell everyone about it.
If you buy branded goods it will tell you who's the cheapest out of all the supermarketsin my street, chemists and even Amazon on some categories.
But it really makes a difference for people.
I had a text from my local GP this week.
(27:49):
They're trying to get enough people together in the area who want to join the HackneyShopping Co-op.
Single old ladies, I think it's mostly in that, can club together and buy things in bulkthrough the club and be able to split that into smaller items because they just don't have
the storage space to do it.
Or as you said, single person doesn't want to buy all of those things, multiple goods youdon't want necessarily to be eating X, Y and Z every single day of the week because you
(28:16):
could only buy multiple.
And then in the clothing space, huge, huge shift in consumer perceptions of second hand.
Quite pleasantly, I think, over the years.
you know, the absolute rise of the shopper.
The shopper trader, I would call it.
People who are buying items of clothing on vintage, especially, but are also selling aswell.
(28:39):
Someone thinking, well, you know what, I'll probably only wear that two or three times,but then I can sell it again.
and I can buy something else.
The amount of stuff for children that you find not just on Vinted, but on marketplaces, onWhatsApp groups, people who are really trying to find.
I mean back to the point, I think that is a definite and since Covid and also some of theenvironmental issues and sustainability, I think it's much more accepted now that, you
(29:06):
know, we will trade those things now and I agree with you, I think that's a greatopportunity.
And also back to business, opportunity for them to be really thinking about how theysupport that, you know, we have got examples of some organisations that have said, you
know, bring it back here and we'll recycle that or, you we'll trade that for you.
It's a cash voucher.
(29:27):
If you scan in five empty products, put them in the recycling bin in its store and thenwill give you money off.
And I think that for me Claer is about that bit which is what we started with really, theconnection between the consumer and the organisation so they're not faceless.
And you talked about value.
Value isn't for us also about just about price.
(29:50):
Value is do I think I am getting...
value from this experience.
So think sometimes organizations get that wrong as well, because it isn't just abouttrading, about price, notwithstanding your points, which I do agree with, over cost of
living, inflationary pressures.
Just on that, we haven't got to this, and I know that we're rambling around all over theplace, but I love that, and that's one of the things that I love talking to you about, new
(30:13):
government, exciting new brave world.
Well it was until they killed the mood.
Well, yeah.
So how are we going to get this growth up?
Because, so a bit of context here, we will talk about the service economy.
80 % of GDP comes from service.
60 % of our workforce are on customer related roles.
It's critical as far as we're concerned that we've got to get the service economy moving,got to have greater levels of confidence.
(30:39):
What's your thoughts?
What do you think would really help both business and government to really kind of injectthat more positive?
What would you like to see?
OK, well I you divide the country at the moment into two types of people.
On the one hand, people who are worried about making their next paycheck last until theend of the month.
(31:02):
And on the other hand, those who have got a bit more money, who are thinking, well howmuch more am going to be taxed after the 30th of October when we finally get Rachel Rees'
first budget, which we've been warned to brace ourselves for.
I mean, I've been trying to calm...
down the mood of the nation by saying all of the tax rises that are rumoured, she can'tpossibly do them all.
(31:23):
But as somebody who is in her 40s, looking to be in the workforce for the next 20 or 30years, if something major happens to pension saving, that's obviously be very upsetting
because that's something that I've been doing for a long time.
If things change there, I'll be upset.
(31:44):
Inheritance taxes.
wealth taxes, property taxes, changes to capital gains taxes.
Lots of these taxes, the average person on the street might not really understand whatthey do, but they will feel the impact nevertheless if it affects the level of business
investment coming into the UK, the level of hiring firms that being able to do.
(32:07):
I I mentor quite a lot of people in different areas of my life.
And one of the things that
anecdotally is really coming through to me at the moment is that it's a lot harder forpeople to get paid, or it's all of a sudden.
It's a lot harder for people to find jobs.
There are more redundancies.
(32:28):
There are more hiring freezes.
Firms might not be openly advertising the fact that they're not on the recruit anymore,but there is this climate of fear, nevertheless, in the business world, like if we don't
have to make a decision before the 13th of October, then let's not make a decision.
And also perhaps some of the day one rights as well and some of the changes that are beingtrailed from that side are making organisations perhaps a little bit more cautious in
(32:54):
terms of what will be happening on that side.
uncertainty, I mean there's always uncertainty, but ironically Britain when you look atthe rest of Europe is in a really strong position and when you drill down into the
economic data, the economic data is showing great things could be ahead, certainly we needto get the economy motoring, it's one of the only ways that we can have a route out of.
(33:21):
You know, there's a huge overhang of government debt from the pandemic, the hugelyinflated interest bills as a result of higher inflation and higher rates.
So lots of economists feel that globally we're at a tipping point now coming out of thepandemic, out of the cost of living crisis.
But of course, what we mustn't forget is that even though the inflation figures might bein low single digits, exactly, you know, all of these price rises, particularly on food,
(33:50):
have been
embedded.
The cost of living crisis absolutely has not gone away.
We do need the government to be responsible and look at the books.
accept that we will need to raise taxes in some areas, but I think the problem at themoment is that this doom and gloom feeling that we don't know where the axe is going to
(34:11):
fall.
We've seen in the latest consumer conference reports that people are putting off largepurchases.
They're feeling less confident about the future.
I would add in to that maybe a bit of fear about the future of their jobs.
People were already worried before this, of course, about what the impact of AI might beand just changing consumer habits.
(34:33):
I mean, as somebody who works in the media, does it worry me about how few people arebuying newspapers nowadays?
Of course it does.
I mean, we're changing what we offer to our customers at the FT in terms of...
and digital subscriptions and I'm much more involved in video journalism.
podcasts.
becoming a major platform for us alongside the written world.
(34:57):
But I mean, look at TV.
So much of TV now is streaming.
People deciding what to watch on tomorrow.
The whole concept of sitting down at a particular time to watch a particular program.
And that's really affecting how advertising
works.
So these legacy industries, you could call them, it's not just the kind of like heavyindustry and manufacturing, it's now the service industries that are having to make these
(35:25):
changes and adjustments.
So a lot of competition for business investment.
of competition but as you said Claer a lot of opportunity and you know some of the thingsthat we've already talked about today is how do those organizations really show up for
their customers and really think about the services that they're now developing and whatI've heard you say quite a lot this morning and I think it's really relevant for all of
(35:48):
the different industry sectors about being very cognizant I mean this has always been thecase but being really cognizant as an organization to really understand what's going
in your customers lives.
know that end to end and how you can really...
the bigger picture?
Yes and what are those reasons that are actually trying to drive you know some of thechanges and then also that whole experience trying to create that and the more that they
(36:13):
outreach the more that they're looking to be helpful the more loyal you know we have.
I you wanted to talk about loyalty cards, airlines and all that stuff so tell me a bitabout that Claer about in terms of the frustration because on the one hand...
And you could argue, just put a bit of devil's advocate out here, actually I want to,know, the loyalty clubs are driving a sense of a club.
(36:40):
You know, if you're committed, you demonstrate loyalty to me, you will get a betterservice.
So I might argue if I was being tough, you know, why is that an issue?
Why, you know, that's surely about you've got to give me something and I'll give yousomething back because that's, you know, good trading factors.
I think the basic problem with all of these loyalty schemes, whether it's supermarkets,airlines, restaurants, coffee places, because they've all got them the other days, is that
(37:08):
over time, they have all become less generous.
Now, my friend, the coupon king, who was on this morning, I was asking him about this,Jordan Cox, he famously collected...
lots of coupons when he was like, I think a 15 or 16 year old kid and managed to do a 300pound supermarket shop for something like 12 quid.
(37:30):
He's an absolute master of money saving and he agrees with me and he said none of theschemes are as generous as they were, but they're all collecting a lot more data from us,
which is incredibly valuable to retailers.
There are previously concerns obviously about any data that we're giving to them.
(37:52):
It's all anonymized and sold off in aggregate to manufacturers, mostly the sorts of peoplewho will fund and offer, let's say, in the supermarket on one of the ends of the aisles.
Maybe you'll send something in the app so you can get a pound off this particular thing,whether it's a pizza or a fried chicken brand, whatever it is.
(38:16):
But they will pay for the data on what sorts of consumers and ages and stages of life arepaying for their products.
But they'll also say, well, tell us what the rival brand, what are its metrics?
And so it's a really big money spinner for these businesses.
It's almost sort of slightly shady about how this operation even goes about.
(38:39):
The FT's done quite a lot of reporting on it in the last year about the levels of profit.
retailers especially are able to extract from these loyalty schemes and I just feel thatcustomers are the ones potentially losing out here, especially now you've got this two
tier pricing situation in most of the big supermarkets.
(38:59):
mean, until I put these apps on my phone, I was routinely popping into a Tesco or a SaintGrease, let's just say, to buy something and then finding like, oh goodness, like in
virtually every category that I want to buy, whether it's LuRoll,
toothpaste, fresh vegetables.
There's something that's really cheap.
(39:19):
If I have the loyalty card, but if I don't, it's a complete rip-off.
It's a much higher price than I would ever expect to pay.
So you've got to have the loyalty card in order to pay an acceptable price.
Now, there's already a regulatory aspect of this, the competition hiring that's going oninto whether this sort of level of pricing is.
(39:41):
Fairly reasonable, but also that anchor point.
So, you know, this used to be this price and now it's this price.
They don't have to have those items on sale at higher price for very long to be able tomake it look like it is a whacking great discount.
Yeah.
Is it such a genuine discount?
But it's more the fact that you've got to have the loyalty card now that annoys me andthat you don't really get as much back from these schemes as you used to back in the day.
(40:07):
But in terms of the backlash against them.
My colleague Brooke Masters wrote about the airline points schemes, airline points creditcards.
It's this huge ecosystem.
Now in the US, where flying around is a way of getting people in a way that perhaps isn'tfor us in Europe, the competition authorities over there are investigating the airline
(40:28):
point schemes because people have built up huge balances of these points, but theircomplaint is that they're unable to spend them.
It's the free flights, the companion vouchers, the lounge vouchers, all too often whenthey want to use them, there's no availability.
And what is striking, she found, is that a large number of business travelers are saying,you know what, we're going to abandon the loyalty scheme, and we're just going to go for
(40:52):
the cheap airlines, a seat on the budget airline, because actually that will save us farmore money than trying to game the system and collect all of these points.
And it's the low cost that we've
value more than these sort of spurious ponces of rewards.
And we're seeing that in the supermarket sector too, and in the clothing sector there aresome real standouts who don't offer loyalty systems at all.
(41:17):
Andy being the main grocer, Friamont being one of the main retailers, their message isit's cheap as chips, come in and fill your boots, we're not going to mess you around,
trying to force you to collect loyalty points.
And I think that that, how that's going to play out as a journalist is something thatreally, really interests us.
and also as a business and as a consumer because I think there's also an issue about timehere Claer because I don't have time to go to multiple shops so I'm not going to be using
(41:48):
a multiple app every time I go to that and you this term loyalty if you think about whatloyalty is about I will be loyal to a brand if I think that what I'm getting back is
value.
mean, services, loyalty, is often catastrophic.
They've had lots of changes recently, but generally, shopping around is the way to go.
(42:11):
Absolutely and obviously the FCA bringing in the change of law earlier this year in termsof dual pricing I think is you know a no-brainer and good to see but I think the clear
message here for business is that I do think that loyalty can work but you've got to thinkabout your scheme which is what you're saying and also not about dark arts you know the
going from it was X amount and now it's 40 % cheaper and now suddenly now I'm addicted tothose chocolate cookies it's now gone back up to being 40 %
(42:38):
he wasn't that stupid.
Yeah, so I think that's a really clear lesson, Claer, that all organisations need tothink about.
And also, what I'm talking about, what's in it for me?
That's the other bit.
Is there a big enough attraction to why I would do this?
And so I'm not sure that I would necessarily see the death of loyalty.
I know you're not suggesting that, loyalty cards.
(43:00):
But maybe we just need to be thinking a bit more smartly about what...
genuinely lorty meats and if I'm going to give you my data then that's right.
so I think there's some interesting pieces around that.
But I think what we have covered here today is really about changing consumer customerissues and challenges and behaviours.
(43:21):
The landscape's still tough and I'm getting that very clearly from you and you knowpost-COVID still on the cost of living.
So organisations seem to really be thinking about how they're outreaching and helping,genuinely building better communication and better care of their customers and consumers
and not taking us for granted.
I think there's a bit of that and you said as customers we're not stupid.
(43:44):
And actually, hopefully as more information becomes available, there's more transparency.
The challenge with that is there's probably too much information.
So it's good that we've got people like you Claer that can help us to navigate whatinformation is helpful and useful.
Is there anything else, we talked about government, talked about hopefully trying to drivegreater growth.
(44:06):
Is there anything else that you think?
This is your opportunity to really lean into the business world in particular that weshould be thinking about as organisations.
That's one question.
The second question to that is, there anything at the institute you'd really like me to bekind of really pushing even further on?
So the first thing is, what's the message to businesses?
(44:26):
I think absolutely the message to businesses should be if you invest in customer serviceyou will see a return and I think that the research that we see at Science in this area is
particularly valuable because also often customer service is seen as a cost.
Yes.
It's not seen as an opportunity and it's much cheaper to convince an existing customer tostay and buy more than it is to acquire a fresh new customer in the first
(44:57):
But I think that people are very willing in general to answer surveys, to provide feedbackand to say actually this is something about my experience that could have gone better.
There are so many barriers that prevent us from being able to pass on even the most basicfeedback to firms about the services we're getting, even if that's praising somebody who
(45:18):
has done good customer service to us.
I always like it when I'm asked at the end of a call if somebody has been particularlyhelpful.
today because I think that if you work in customer service, it's often a very thanklessprofession, but you are doing an amazing job if you are able to hold on to those customers
and stop them from walking out the door.
(45:39):
In terms of what research I'd like to see the CSI do more of, anything that makes thebusiness case for the customer service.
You know we're big on
gets a big tick in my book, but also the digital dimension.
you mentioned with your passport, there are so many different services as consumers thatare either going completely digital or digital is very much the norm now.
(46:07):
And no more so than with banking, online banking, we've seen branches shrink anddisappear.
It's been slightly conflated in the business.
with the needs to give people access to cash.
But actually I think what is the missing link here is giving people access to digitalservices.
Now if you have got very little money, can you afford to have a smartphone that's capableof running the latest app with your bank's security requirements?
(46:37):
Can you even afford to have a broadband connection in your property?
Meaning we're seeing digital exclusion.
It's not just older people who are affected by this, it's young people too.
That is one of the big drivers behind people wanting to visit these new fangored bankinghubs on high streets because they lack the access to the services.
They can't go online on a phone app and check their balance, pay their bills, etc.
(47:02):
But the service is being provided within the bank hubs, they've catered for that.
Yet, it's all very set up to providing access to cash.
That's not really the problem here, it's access to digital.
As more and more of our lives go online, what other areas of business are we going to seethat in?
Do we need a basic digital standard to bring the rest of the population up to give cheapor free broadband access to telephony to everybody in the population, bearing in mind that
(47:34):
the benefits system is largely becoming online first now, one of the reasons I haven'tseen any problems with pension from it.
I think that this is an issue that maybe in two generations' time won't be such an issuebecause people would have grown up with this.
There is some evidence as we get older we struggle more to learn new things so you knowthat point about choice but I think it's a really relevant point that you're making Claer
(48:01):
about access to digital and ensuring that that's not an exclusion.
Over the phone bit, think phones probably are less of an issue but know families having toshare laptops and things like that and there's definitely we have seen you know huge
issues and challenges.
How do you teach young children about spending their own money in a largely cashlessworld?
(48:25):
Yes, you can get them a card that's linked to an app, but the app has to be on a device.
Would a seven or an eight year old have access to a Obviously they can tap and paint inthe contactless payment card as much as they like, but are they actually getting the
money?
The money is going down.
These are real world problems.
(48:46):
businesses that are able to come up with brilliant ideas to solve these, the gaps, dothings in a different way for the digital era, take the customer with them.
There's a huge opportunity for that.
And I would agree completely.
I think that providing that wider resource, the outreach, understanding the observations,how customers are behaving, and you make a really valid point about younger people coming
(49:14):
through, having that access.
Claer, thank you so much for your time as always.
And it's always a joy to work with you.
And thank you for championing the work of the Institute as well.
Really, really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on.
What a fantastic discussion.
I really enjoyed talking with Claer and getting her unique insight as someone whostraddles both the consumer and business worlds.
(49:38):
So join us next time where I will be talking to the brilliant customer service expert,Peter Cross, about the true meaning of customer experience and how it can be a
differentiator for your business.
Until then, take good care.
Hello everyone and a very warm welcome back to another episode of Corson and the Customer.
Our weekly podcast discussing all things customer service and effective businessleadership was some of the most knowledgeable on the subject.
Last week we had the insightful and absolutely wonderful Chris Pitt, CEO of First Direct,to give us a leader's perspective.
(00:28):
And this week we have something a little bit different.
I'm very excited to introduce our guest, who many of you may already know from her work asconsumer editor at the Financial Times, where she frequently advises on personal finance
and consumer affairs.
Or you may know her from her fantastic book, What They Don't Teach You About Money.
(00:51):
And you may have even heard from her on the radio, where she is a regular guest on NickFerrari's show on LBC.
Claer Barrett joins me today.
and we discuss the current outlook from the perspective of the consumer, the significantchallenges faced by businesses in a volatile economic climate, and what steps business and
(01:12):
government can do to start improving things.
So a very warm welcome everybody to today's podcast and I am super excited because today Iam joined by the renowned and brilliant journalist Claer Barrett.
Well it's true Claer so we're very lucky and it's not very often I get to be able to turnthe tables and be the journalist so I'm particularly excited to be here.
(01:41):
No need to be scared.
But Claer is consumer editor and columnist at the Financial Times and she took thatposition in 2020.
But she is an amazing journalist that actually spans both the consumer press but also thebusiness press.
And that's really quite interesting in terms of a combination.
Writes the weekly serious money column and presents the FT's money clinic.
(02:06):
Aside from that, I don't really get much time aside from that, but I know that you are aregular commentator generally about consumer and financial affairs across a whole range of
media, radio and TV.
And you are also a regular attendee at the Nick Ferrari breakfast show where you do thebig spot, I think, on consumer affairs, but also business and the impact of financial
(02:29):
services.
And on Wednesdays and Fridays we go through the big business stories and of course many ofthe ones that interest me are the ones with a consumer.
Yeah, and then I'm also on the rain on Wednesday mornings on ITV, slightly differentaudience, but again, talking about finance, consumer issues and how they impact that
(02:50):
audience.
So it's great to be able to speak to such a wide spectrum of consumers from, you know, thevery wealthy, nice readers of financial times, all the way down to people who
to catch me on the radio or maybe want to improve their finances and they're listening tothe Money Clinic podcast.
But the best thing about it all, Jo, is that I hear from all of them.
(03:13):
People message me on Instagram, I'm at Clebby, if you want to follow me on all of thesocial media platforms.
And I would say one of the best and most valuable parts of my job is hearing from ordinarypeople about how they think the companies and the financial companies in particular
servicing them could be doing a better job.
Which is brilliant.
And so, and we're definitely going to talk about that because I'm really interested inunderstanding what customers and consumers are saying and whether that's consistent, you
(03:43):
whether it's got worse care, you know, are there particular themes?
Because I think this is really important because obviously this podcast will go out tolots of our listeners who are businesses.
So it's great to have you to do that.
And also I do want to give a bit of a plug for your book.
Because I think this was also very important because your book is what they don't teachyou about money So I think that would be very interesting too because we have got a big
(04:06):
issue in the UK about You know funny relationship with money.
Sometimes we're a bit scared about it Sometimes we perhaps don't manage that as well as wepossibly can we were talking earlier about the different personalities that you talk about
in the book about in terms of are we certain characters
Certainly it's been good for a lot of financial businesses that UK consumers are not thesavviest when it comes to their own finances, in Upshirt and not being able to feel
(04:33):
empowered enough to make a decision works very well for them often, know, slashing savingsrates or whacking up mortgage rates that not bring well for us.
And also on that, ultimately I might argue Claer, that in the long term it's not good forbusiness either.
No.
Because obviously if we want to try and grow the agenda, we want more people to be moreconfident about what they're doing with their money, how they spend it, whether it's worth
(04:57):
it making all of those trade-offs and decisions.
I think we definitely should talk about that.
But let's start with...
What is going on in the consumer landscape and how's that?
If you think about the issues and challenges that people are raising with you, what's thebiggest bug there, Claer?
Well, you very kindly helped me write an enormous article in the FT nearly six months agonow, which basically said customer service, can it get any worse in the UK?
(05:27):
And that was really inspired by the fact that I just was finding everyone I was talking toand all of the aspects of my various different jobs and different hats.
I was just coming across people who were fighting these seemingly never-ending battleswith different companies, whether it was an energy firm, a broadband company, they were
(05:49):
having a dispute with a clothing retailer about a return that had actually haven't beenreceived, wouldn't be refunded, a credit card company, somebody who had done them a bad
deal, they were fearful about negotiating with their mortgage lender with rates shootingup.
All over the place, customer service just seemed to...
have died death.
(06:09):
It just wasn't a feature of the landscape anymore.
And a few months before I wrote that huge investigation in the FT, I'd done a piece aboutJohn Lewis, one of Britain's best loved retailers, but also a really good example, along
with British Airways perhaps, being another one, of brands that we have held in highesteem and seen as a premium and better at customer service perhaps than the rest of the
(06:34):
market after the pandemic really start to
disappoints our expectations and the volume of feedback after writing these articles,emails from FTB does messages on Instagram from people who'd see my posts about all of
this.
I don't think I've ever had more feedback on another topic and I write about a lot ofstuff and it just really hit a nerve that customer service needs to improve across the
(07:03):
whole gamut of consumer facing.
businesses in the UK that people have had enough they don't want to be palmed off with anelectronic chatbot and also one of the most surprising bits of research I think that you
have produced around a third of us are prepared to pay more if we get better customerservice which was one of the key takeaways of it.
(07:26):
Absolutely and thank you for quoting that and you're absolutely right.
Yeah and that's been very consistent actually Claer so we've been tracking that so evenpre and
actually during the pandemic and since it's actually gone up.
from, you know, in terms of how many of us are prepared to pay more.
So we've got, and again, the UK CSI is also demonstrating that customer service isdefinitely under pressure.
(07:51):
And if you think about what people were complaining about or what consumers are findingdifficult, if you had to summarize that.
in terms of talking to the business community, what are the top things that really seem tobe irritating people?
Well, I think it all boils down to one thing, which is are we getting value for money?
(08:12):
We've had the pandemic, a huge financial shock, then we've had the cost of living crisis,inflation prices soaring, everything becoming more and more un-affordable.
And as a consumer, you know, you're looking at every single outgoing and whatever it isfrom car insurance to the price you're paying for your groceries, your rent, your
(08:32):
mortgage, everything is going up at once.
And the thing that hasn't been going up.
of course, is people's pay packets, although we're seeing a of a delayed effect, thankgoodness, coming through now.
So if a retailer or a service business is going to compete to get you to spend yourhard-earned with it, you want to make sure that you're getting a good bang for your buck.
(08:58):
Are you getting good value?
And there are lots of ways that consumers have felt they've either been getting
Poor service, poor value, disputes over pricing levels.
We can talk bit later maybe about loyalty cards and how you basically need one now to dothe grocery shop or you're going to get ripped off in my humble opinion.
(09:21):
But what really has made consumers angry is that if they want to complain about the waythat they've been
treated, the price rises, been foisted upon them, poor service they think they'vereceived.
It seems to be much, much harder now to actually speak to.
(09:41):
a human being who can actually do something about their problem and resolve it.
Now, an awful lot of the need to speak to customer service agents, especially with themore financial companies, is financial distress.
We've got, I think, nearly £3 billion earned now of bad energy debt in system.
(10:01):
Now, that hasn't gone away, even though people might be feeling bit more rosy-tinted aboutthe economic prospects and inflation falling.
Lots of the energy companies, their helplines are going to be stuffed with people justsaying, I can't afford to pay the bill.
And they don't really have an answer for that other than refer them to debt managementservices.
(10:21):
Meanwhile, people who want to get through to talk about power outage or the fact that theydon't understand their bill, having to wait longer and longer periods of time, that seems
to be a theme that you've picked up in your research too.
A number of complaints have risen.
The amount of time it takes to resolve it.
complaints is also rising.
(10:41):
And then you get the feeling that firms are not being entirely honest, customers think,with how they log complaints.
If they don't log it as a complaint, then maybe they don't have to deal with it.
And this just general handing off, outsourcing of customer service, seeing it as a costrather than as a retention tool and something that's vital to keep that relationship
(11:07):
between.
the customer and the business flowing and to convince me to spend more money with them.
Yeah, so quite a lot in there, Claer, but I think there's some interesting themes and wecertainly see some of those key aspects coming up in our research.
the first piece really about complaints, you know, and the choice, you know, do I havechoice that I can talk to a human being?
(11:28):
And we certainly see that the number one request in the UK CSI is when things go wrong,can I talk to a human being?
As I guess technology improves, as AI improves, you know, it's not necessarily a need totalk to a human being.
It's about
the frustration about getting my issue resolved.
It's often quite a simple question.
Yeah.
(11:49):
The chatbot doesn't know.
Yes, how to deal with that.
And I think certainly our first generation chatbots, when we talked about this, as youkindly mentioned before, have not, they have disappointed.
AI is cutting up, the speed of that is definitely improving.
And we talk a lot about a blended approach towards the customer experience.
Because the other side of this is that, as you mentioned, that costs for consumers havegone up, costs for businesses have gone up.
(12:14):
Yes, yes.
There's always a bit of a trade off, but we also know that there's no excuse for not beingable to deliver against the things that you have promised.
So as an organization, if you promise to deliver something, then you actually have to hitthat within one of the SLAs that you have set.
And I think that's where a frustration comes.
(12:34):
And what you're talking about, I agree with Claer, where if an organization has promisedto do this within a particular timeframe to the quality of the goods and services and then
disappoints us, and then we can't get hold of them, that...
absolutely is a big issue and certainly will drive down customer satisfaction levels.
So I think there's that bit about being able to be responsive, the bit about choice andwe're big components about trying to find that opportunity.
(13:02):
Some of us are quite happy to self-serve, some of us if the journey goes I mean I was inrenewing my passport, unbelievable service, you I didn't touch a human being.
But I went in on the Monday and within a week, my, you know, online on Monday, within aweek, my passport's back through the door and they tracked that and they told me
everything and every single stage of that.
(13:23):
So that was a brilliant use of technology being able to deliver.
The other point that you've raised, and I think this is a really, goes to a hub of this,about trust, you know, and do I feel that this organization's ripping me off or not
telling me the truth?
And in the last UK CSI, we've definitely seen that, the relationship between do I trustthis organization?
(13:48):
Do I think that this organization cares about me?
Are they operating in an ethical way?
And I really think that businesses not only should be thinking about their transaction,does the process work and does Claer or Jo get their passport or their doughnut or
whatever we're buying, but how we do that.
And I think there's a big thing that businesses have to think about, Claer.
(14:11):
And if you think about what was going on in the financial services side at the moment, I'dbe really interested in is there anything that you're seeing that you think that's good?
And actually that would really help to improve trust and try to improve the relationshipthat we're having as consumers with businesses.
(14:32):
mean the great irony of course of anyone experiencing financial distress, the last peoplealmost they're going to fave for help are the companies that they owe the money to, you
very understandably, which you think well you know they might cut me off, might close downmy...
There's all sorts of other things going on for them too, isn't there?
In terms of feeling embarrassed or awkward or all sorts of stuff.
(14:56):
So we've seen some banks, interestingly, in the world that comes top.
If your customers send this poll, First Direct, they took a very different approach.
And around a year ago, they started making outbound calls.
Very rare for a bank to make, which is something I say about fraud all the time.
Banks failing you up always question whether it really is them.
(15:17):
But nevertheless, First Direct have been reaching out to customers who they can see fromthe data.
They're in financial distress, they've had refused payments.
have not got so much money coming in as they used to perhaps and have said how can we helpyou and actually the CEO said once you get past that initial barrier of I'm in trouble the
(15:38):
bank are failing up people are very receptive to receiving help because they don't reallyknow who else to turn to and there is so much that banks can do in terms of helping people
to
sort their financial lives out, be more organised.
There are some problems that are obviously beyond the bank's control, but it's just havingthat ability to say, contact us, we're here, we're ready to talk.
(16:02):
We've seen it with the mortgage lenders, the big hike up in mortgage rates after the minibudget, people having payment shock, rolling off low rates onto higher ones.
Communication, even if you're in a tight spot, is always going to get you a better resultthan just ignoring.
know, the red builds, all the letters.
And I think we really have seen firms make a concerted effort to look at the ways thatthey can speak to customers.
(16:26):
I heard that one mortgage company was offering to talk to customers on WhatsApp.
And I think there were regulatory problems with that in the end.
But if you think about it, that's how many younger people prefer to communicate.
know, find it difficult to get people on the phone sometimes because they'd rather doemails.
A consistent frustration from FT readers was the fact that you can't email companies.
(16:51):
That seems to be a channel of communication that suits us because we could maybe email atthe evening or the weekend to say could you look into this problem for me.
They don't want to have the burden of them having to respond so you've got to go throughthis system where you're either in a chat or a queue and you're hanging on and hanging on
and I hear so much from people who are just not in jobs where
(17:12):
They can do that.
can their mobile phone on hold playing with Aldi next to them for an hour while they geton with other tasks.
I mean try doing that if you're a school teacher.
And also, and I think you raised a really important point, and again, the Institute woulddefinitely support that, about channel of choice.
if we have an issue, definitely as customers and consumers, our channel of choice is veryoften email, because it's also trackable and we have that audit trail, that I sent you
(17:38):
this, and it's just easier, isn't it, in terms of that piece.
I think it's also really interesting that you talked about what good practice looks like.
And again, we've seen this not just in financial services sectors.
where organisations genuinely outreach and say look are you okay we've noticed this it'snot seen as an intrusion it's actually seen as helpful advice and support because the
(18:02):
company is no longer faceless it's you know it's that opportunity to engage so that's areally good point
not what we're doing.
It's not often the banks impress me.
It's usually the reverse.
But one topic that I've started writing about more recently is neurodiversity.
Lots of people at the heckles get up and they say, ADHD, it's an invented condition andanybody could go get diagnosed with it.
(18:25):
To which I say, you know, rubbish.
I'm sorry, trying to think of a child who's been diagnosed with ADHD and then come backand say the same thing.
But Molso is one bank that has been looking at how it can develop services
that will help people who are neurodiverse better manage their finances.
It's quite a large set of problems stemming from what I could describe as kind oforganisational issues.
(18:56):
People who are neurodiverse unfortunately are much more prone to impulse spending forexample, but also just not being able to organise
their finances in a way that they pay bills on time, often get hit with late payments.
Services could be developed that would actually be an improvement, not just for thosecustomers, of course, but for many other people.
(19:20):
And one of the ones that really impressed me, as well as being able to control what sortof marketing messages you want to receive, you can switch off all messages about
borrowing.
For example, if you think you were pretentious, you can opt out of overdrafts.
They've looked at things that small business owners struggle with.
One of those is putting the money aside to pay tax bills.
So if you want on the Monzo Pro Business account, you can pay a little bit money everymonth for this service.
(19:46):
You set the percentage level and every single payment that you have coming into yourbusiness account, will automatically deduct a slice of that payment and put it in what's
called a tax pot.
So you can save it up to pay your tax bill in January or your year end falls.
it's innovations like that.
They don't cost the company.
any money really to do other than the innovation needed to think of it but they'relistening to their customers and they're saying what kind of digital services could we
(20:12):
provide that would actually make your life easier and what's more make it easier for youto run your business to run your life without having to remember to allocate a few pots of
money around and I just think that that is the most brilliant example.
I couldn't agree more.
there's a couple of bits in that in terms of lessons or learnings also for other sectors,because what you clearly articulated, Claer, is thinking about the customer in the round.
(20:40):
not just thinking about that as a transaction, but thinking about what the hell is goingon in this customer's life?
What are the kind of the main pain points for them?
And anything that we can do, because we've never got enough time, have we?
I mean, there's a really interesting issue at the moment, I think, that we're all short oftime.
we're all running from one thing to another.
(21:01):
And technology has been brilliant in terms of helping some of that, know, instant.
But instant is also causing other issues or challenges for us because we're expectingeverything to be instant and now we're having to deal with that hamster.
So where organisations are thinking a bit more broadly about what's going on in mycustomer's life, the customer journey and being able to support some of those things,
(21:27):
again,
that really helps on a whole host of levels.
It helps brand loyalty, I'm much more likely to stay with this organisation because theycare about me back to that other point.
But it also probably reduces the issues and problems in another part of society.
Because it's not a massive shock, it, when I've got to pay my tax bill because I'veactually got this pot here that's thinking about it.
And also word of mouth.
(21:47):
I'm talking about it.
Quite a few people I've mentioned this to said, I'm going to move my account to Monzo.
That's a genius idea.
And it's probably something that in time, the other banks will copy because Monzo,Starlink, the other digital banks, Chase, they all offer this ability now to set up
different pots so you can separate cash and align it towards different goals.
(22:07):
And I've got one where I save up a certain amount of money every month to pay on.
car insurance is just one of those things.
A few years ago it was 400 quid.
It's like, yeah, exactly.
And if you've got a nice motor, mean, my goodness, if you drive a Land Rover Discovery,able to get insured at all.
(22:30):
There's a whole story about that actually, because apparently they're the most stolenparts and bits for Russia.
So that's one of the reasons why they're such an expensive insurance, because they'rebeing stolen and shipped out to Russia for parts.
But any kind of innovation that helps people to get a better handle on their finances, tofeel empowered to deal with their finances.
(22:55):
Because one of the most talked about financial personalities in my book is the ostrich.
The person who buries their head in the sand when it comes to trouble.
And I freely admit that in my student days, I was an ostrich.
And I'm happy to admit that because I'm obviously now not an ostrich.
there's also people.
Not only that Claer, it's enabled you to write the book and also understand what it'slike.
(23:20):
absolutely.
And that's an interesting word, empathise or empathy.
know, again going back to where organisations I think do well is when they genuinelyconnect and they can empathise, which is another aspect around having the right people.
you know, are empowered enough to be able to make, when you've got that complex issue orproblem, they know what they're talking about, they're empowered to make the decision.
(23:44):
You don't have to wait, you know, for ages.
So that sense of being able to be connected to the organization, either through the staffand colleagues that are serving you, but also having empathetic IT.
And I think we're still a bit of a way from that, but it's getting better.
It's getting more intuitive and being able to drive that.
(24:04):
So tell me a bit about the...
What are the personalities?
I'm really interested in kind of feeling what personality I might be.
Okay, well we've covered the ostrich, very important.
I should say...
as a caveat, most people are a bled, they've got elements of different personalities.
So the spendy Wendy.
I try to think of a man's name that where I'm with spendy.
(24:25):
It's not a slight on women, but people who just feel as soon as they've got money in theirpocket, they want to spend it.
Exactly.
I also have a tendency towards that at certain times.
Then on the other side, we've got the goblin, the person who hauls their gold.
It's very, very cautious about either spending any of it,
(24:45):
but also investing it, which can be a big problem.
The spreadsheet slave I came up with, a man at one of my book events came up to me andsaid, I am a spreadsheet slave and I have got a spreadsheet of every single piece of money
I've spent since the late 1980s.
My wife wants to divorce me because I've been paid to go on a holiday.
And I said, listen, book the holiday.
(25:08):
It will be cheaper than the divorce.
So I hope he did, but it's all about control.
you know, if they can control every aspect of their finances, it's that maybe making upfor the lack of control elsewhere, but also it's stopping them from living in the here and
now, because it's all about the balance.
The YOLO, you only live once, that's one that I put in just because I meet so many youngpeople who think, I'm never going to be able to afford to save up to buy a property,
(25:35):
particularly in London and the Southeast, so I'm going to invest it all in crypto.
you know, the, to the move.
That's the only way I can get rich quick by taking some huge gamble.
That's something that worries me intensely about the younger generation because life isjust so...
And certain.
And also certain.
(25:56):
and frankly the career prospects you know what you would earn now as a journalist at anentry level you know whoever's listening to this podcast you think about your job what you
were paid when you started from university and what we're paying graduates now thedifference is not all that great you know wages for younger people have been going
backwards at a time when living costs have been going up and all of them
(26:20):
privileges that we had, know, traveling on a shoestring.
mean, I'm a member of the EasyJet generation when I was at university.
I can remember saying, oh, come on, we've the last bit of the student lane left.
We can get a flight to Rhin for a level.
The next day, you know, we'd be off, you we're trying to really squeeze the most out oflife.
(26:40):
And we felt optimistic about our prospects.
We had a lightness of being, as one of my friends had said, that generations comingthrough.
don't for various reasons.
So lots and lots of different financial personalities, but basically how to maybe applythem a little bit to the types of consumer in the market.
I I think the dominant type of consumer now is very much the value seeker.
(27:05):
And by value seeking, I don't mean necessarily the person who buys everything in our deal,although the budget supermarkets have done fantastically well.
I mean the kind of person who will not buy anything unless it's on a deal or on a discountor they can get
they've compared multiple product services and looked that through.
(27:28):
Lots of research, fantastic app if you're a supermarket deal spotter, trolley.co.uk, I'lltell everyone about it.
If you buy branded goods it will tell you who's the cheapest out of all the supermarketsin my street, chemists and even Amazon on some categories.
But it really makes a difference for people.
I had a text from my local GP this week.
(27:49):
They're trying to get enough people together in the area who want to join the HackneyShopping Co-op.
Single old ladies, I think it's mostly in that, can club together and buy things in bulkthrough the club and be able to split that into smaller items because they just don't have
the storage space to do it.
Or as you said, single person doesn't want to buy all of those things, multiple goods youdon't want necessarily to be eating X, Y and Z every single day of the week because you
(28:16):
could only buy multiple.
And then in the clothing space, huge, huge shift in consumer perceptions of second hand.
Quite pleasantly, I think, over the years.
you know, the absolute rise of the shopper.
The shopper trader, I would call it.
People who are buying items of clothing on vintage, especially, but are also selling aswell.
(28:39):
Someone thinking, well, you know what, I'll probably only wear that two or three times,but then I can sell it again.
and I can buy something else.
The amount of stuff for children that you find not just on Vinted, but on marketplaces, onWhatsApp groups, people who are really trying to find.
I mean back to the point, I think that is a definite and since Covid and also some of theenvironmental issues and sustainability, I think it's much more accepted now that, you
(29:06):
know, we will trade those things now and I agree with you, I think that's a greatopportunity.
And also back to business, opportunity for them to be really thinking about how theysupport that, you know, we have got examples of some organisations that have said, you
know, bring it back here and we'll recycle that or, you we'll trade that for you.
It's a cash voucher.
(29:27):
If you scan in five empty products, put them in the recycling bin in its store and thenwill give you money off.
And I think that for me Claer is about that bit which is what we started with really, theconnection between the consumer and the organisation so they're not faceless.
And you talked about value.
Value isn't for us also about just about price.
(29:50):
Value is do I think I am getting...
value from this experience.
So think sometimes organizations get that wrong as well, because it isn't just abouttrading, about price, notwithstanding your points, which I do agree with, over cost of
living, inflationary pressures.
Just on that, we haven't got to this, and I know that we're rambling around all over theplace, but I love that, and that's one of the things that I love talking to you about, new
(30:13):
government, exciting new brave world.
Well it was until they killed the mood.
Well, yeah.
So how are we going to get this growth up?
Because, so a bit of context here, we will talk about the service economy.
80 % of GDP comes from service.
60 % of our workforce are on customer related roles.
It's critical as far as we're concerned that we've got to get the service economy moving,got to have greater levels of confidence.
(30:39):
What's your thoughts?
What do you think would really help both business and government to really kind of injectthat more positive?
What would you like to see?
OK, well I you divide the country at the moment into two types of people.
On the one hand, people who are worried about making their next paycheck last until theend of the month.
(31:02):
And on the other hand, those who have got a bit more money, who are thinking, well howmuch more am going to be taxed after the 30th of October when we finally get Rachel Rees'
first budget, which we've been warned to brace ourselves for.
I mean, I've been trying to calm...
down the mood of the nation by saying all of the tax rises that are rumoured, she can'tpossibly do them all.
(31:23):
But as somebody who is in her 40s, looking to be in the workforce for the next 20 or 30years, if something major happens to pension saving, that's obviously be very upsetting
because that's something that I've been doing for a long time.
If things change there, I'll be upset.
(31:44):
Inheritance taxes.
wealth taxes, property taxes, changes to capital gains taxes.
Lots of these taxes, the average person on the street might not really understand whatthey do, but they will feel the impact nevertheless if it affects the level of business
investment coming into the UK, the level of hiring firms that being able to do.
(32:07):
I I mentor quite a lot of people in different areas of my life.
And one of the things that
anecdotally is really coming through to me at the moment is that it's a lot harder forpeople to get paid, or it's all of a sudden.
It's a lot harder for people to find jobs.
There are more redundancies.
(32:28):
There are more hiring freezes.
Firms might not be openly advertising the fact that they're not on the recruit anymore,but there is this climate of fear, nevertheless, in the business world, like if we don't
have to make a decision before the 13th of October, then let's not make a decision.
And also perhaps some of the day one rights as well and some of the changes that are beingtrailed from that side are making organisations perhaps a little bit more cautious in
(32:54):
terms of what will be happening on that side.
uncertainty, I mean there's always uncertainty, but ironically Britain when you look atthe rest of Europe is in a really strong position and when you drill down into the
economic data, the economic data is showing great things could be ahead, certainly we needto get the economy motoring, it's one of the only ways that we can have a route out of.
(33:21):
You know, there's a huge overhang of government debt from the pandemic, the hugelyinflated interest bills as a result of higher inflation and higher rates.
So lots of economists feel that globally we're at a tipping point now coming out of thepandemic, out of the cost of living crisis.
But of course, what we mustn't forget is that even though the inflation figures might bein low single digits, exactly, you know, all of these price rises, particularly on food,
(33:50):
have been
embedded.
The cost of living crisis absolutely has not gone away.
We do need the government to be responsible and look at the books.
accept that we will need to raise taxes in some areas, but I think the problem at themoment is that this doom and gloom feeling that we don't know where the axe is going to
(34:11):
fall.
We've seen in the latest consumer conference reports that people are putting off largepurchases.
They're feeling less confident about the future.
I would add in to that maybe a bit of fear about the future of their jobs.
People were already worried before this, of course, about what the impact of AI might beand just changing consumer habits.
(34:33):
I mean, as somebody who works in the media, does it worry me about how few people arebuying newspapers nowadays?
Of course it does.
I mean, we're changing what we offer to our customers at the FT in terms of...
and digital subscriptions and I'm much more involved in video journalism.
podcasts.
becoming a major platform for us alongside the written world.
(34:57):
But I mean, look at TV.
So much of TV now is streaming.
People deciding what to watch on tomorrow.
The whole concept of sitting down at a particular time to watch a particular program.
And that's really affecting how advertising
works.
So these legacy industries, you could call them, it's not just the kind of like heavyindustry and manufacturing, it's now the service industries that are having to make these
(35:25):
changes and adjustments.
So a lot of competition for business investment.
of competition but as you said Claer a lot of opportunity and you know some of the thingsthat we've already talked about today is how do those organizations really show up for
their customers and really think about the services that they're now developing and whatI've heard you say quite a lot this morning and I think it's really relevant for all of
(35:48):
the different industry sectors about being very cognizant I mean this has always been thecase but being really cognizant as an organization to really understand what's going
in your customers lives.
know that end to end and how you can really...
the bigger picture?
Yes and what are those reasons that are actually trying to drive you know some of thechanges and then also that whole experience trying to create that and the more that they
(36:13):
outreach the more that they're looking to be helpful the more loyal you know we have.
I you wanted to talk about loyalty cards, airlines and all that stuff so tell me a bitabout that Claer about in terms of the frustration because on the one hand...
And you could argue, just put a bit of devil's advocate out here, actually I want to,know, the loyalty clubs are driving a sense of a club.
(36:40):
You know, if you're committed, you demonstrate loyalty to me, you will get a betterservice.
So I might argue if I was being tough, you know, why is that an issue?
Why, you know, that's surely about you've got to give me something and I'll give yousomething back because that's, you know, good trading factors.
I think the basic problem with all of these loyalty schemes, whether it's supermarkets,airlines, restaurants, coffee places, because they've all got them the other days, is that
(37:08):
over time, they have all become less generous.
Now, my friend, the coupon king, who was on this morning, I was asking him about this,Jordan Cox, he famously collected...
lots of coupons when he was like, I think a 15 or 16 year old kid and managed to do a 300pound supermarket shop for something like 12 quid.
(37:30):
He's an absolute master of money saving and he agrees with me and he said none of theschemes are as generous as they were, but they're all collecting a lot more data from us,
which is incredibly valuable to retailers.
There are previously concerns obviously about any data that we're giving to them.
(37:52):
It's all anonymized and sold off in aggregate to manufacturers, mostly the sorts of peoplewho will fund and offer, let's say, in the supermarket on one of the ends of the aisles.
Maybe you'll send something in the app so you can get a pound off this particular thing,whether it's a pizza or a fried chicken brand, whatever it is.
(38:16):
But they will pay for the data on what sorts of consumers and ages and stages of life arepaying for their products.
But they'll also say, well, tell us what the rival brand, what are its metrics?
And so it's a really big money spinner for these businesses.
It's almost sort of slightly shady about how this operation even goes about.
(38:39):
The FT's done quite a lot of reporting on it in the last year about the levels of profit.
retailers especially are able to extract from these loyalty schemes and I just feel thatcustomers are the ones potentially losing out here, especially now you've got this two
tier pricing situation in most of the big supermarkets.
(38:59):
mean, until I put these apps on my phone, I was routinely popping into a Tesco or a SaintGrease, let's just say, to buy something and then finding like, oh goodness, like in
virtually every category that I want to buy, whether it's LuRoll,
toothpaste, fresh vegetables.
There's something that's really cheap.
(39:19):
If I have the loyalty card, but if I don't, it's a complete rip-off.
It's a much higher price than I would ever expect to pay.
So you've got to have the loyalty card in order to pay an acceptable price.
Now, there's already a regulatory aspect of this, the competition hiring that's going oninto whether this sort of level of pricing is.
(39:41):
Fairly reasonable, but also that anchor point.
So, you know, this used to be this price and now it's this price.
They don't have to have those items on sale at higher price for very long to be able tomake it look like it is a whacking great discount.
Yeah.
Is it such a genuine discount?
But it's more the fact that you've got to have the loyalty card now that annoys me andthat you don't really get as much back from these schemes as you used to back in the day.
(40:07):
But in terms of the backlash against them.
My colleague Brooke Masters wrote about the airline points schemes, airline points creditcards.
It's this huge ecosystem.
Now in the US, where flying around is a way of getting people in a way that perhaps isn'tfor us in Europe, the competition authorities over there are investigating the airline
(40:28):
point schemes because people have built up huge balances of these points, but theircomplaint is that they're unable to spend them.
It's the free flights, the companion vouchers, the lounge vouchers, all too often whenthey want to use them, there's no availability.
And what is striking, she found, is that a large number of business travelers are saying,you know what, we're going to abandon the loyalty scheme, and we're just going to go for
(40:52):
the cheap airlines, a seat on the budget airline, because actually that will save us farmore money than trying to game the system and collect all of these points.
And it's the low cost that we've
value more than these sort of spurious ponces of rewards.
And we're seeing that in the supermarket sector too, and in the clothing sector there aresome real standouts who don't offer loyalty systems at all.
(41:17):
Andy being the main grocer, Friamont being one of the main retailers, their message isit's cheap as chips, come in and fill your boots, we're not going to mess you around,
trying to force you to collect loyalty points.
And I think that that, how that's going to play out as a journalist is something thatreally, really interests us.
and also as a business and as a consumer because I think there's also an issue about timehere Claer because I don't have time to go to multiple shops so I'm not going to be using
(41:48):
a multiple app every time I go to that and you this term loyalty if you think about whatloyalty is about I will be loyal to a brand if I think that what I'm getting back is
value.
mean, services, loyalty, is often catastrophic.
They've had lots of changes recently, but generally, shopping around is the way to go.
(42:11):
Absolutely and obviously the FCA bringing in the change of law earlier this year in termsof dual pricing I think is you know a no-brainer and good to see but I think the clear
message here for business is that I do think that loyalty can work but you've got to thinkabout your scheme which is what you're saying and also not about dark arts you know the
going from it was X amount and now it's 40 % cheaper and now suddenly now I'm addicted tothose chocolate cookies it's now gone back up to being 40 %
(42:38):
he wasn't that stupid.
Yeah, so I think that's a really clear lesson, Claer, that all organisations need tothink about.
And also, what I'm talking about, what's in it for me?
That's the other bit.
Is there a big enough attraction to why I would do this?
And so I'm not sure that I would necessarily see the death of loyalty.
I know you're not suggesting that, loyalty cards.
(43:00):
But maybe we just need to be thinking a bit more smartly about what...
genuinely lorty meats and if I'm going to give you my data then that's right.
so I think there's some interesting pieces around that.
But I think what we have covered here today is really about changing consumer customerissues and challenges and behaviours.
(43:21):
The landscape's still tough and I'm getting that very clearly from you and you knowpost-COVID still on the cost of living.
So organisations seem to really be thinking about how they're outreaching and helping,genuinely building better communication and better care of their customers and consumers
and not taking us for granted.
I think there's a bit of that and you said as customers we're not stupid.
(43:44):
And actually, hopefully as more information becomes available, there's more transparency.
The challenge with that is there's probably too much information.
So it's good that we've got people like you Claer that can help us to navigate whatinformation is helpful and useful.
Is there anything else, we talked about government, talked about hopefully trying to drivegreater growth.
(44:06):
Is there anything else that you think?
This is your opportunity to really lean into the business world in particular that weshould be thinking about as organisations.
That's one question.
The second question to that is, there anything at the institute you'd really like me to bekind of really pushing even further on?
So the first thing is, what's the message to businesses?
(44:26):
I think absolutely the message to businesses should be if you invest in customer serviceyou will see a return and I think that the research that we see at Science in this area is
particularly valuable because also often customer service is seen as a cost.
Yes.
It's not seen as an opportunity and it's much cheaper to convince an existing customer tostay and buy more than it is to acquire a fresh new customer in the first
(44:57):
But I think that people are very willing in general to answer surveys, to provide feedbackand to say actually this is something about my experience that could have gone better.
There are so many barriers that prevent us from being able to pass on even the most basicfeedback to firms about the services we're getting, even if that's praising somebody who
(45:18):
has done good customer service to us.
I always like it when I'm asked at the end of a call if somebody has been particularlyhelpful.
today because I think that if you work in customer service, it's often a very thanklessprofession, but you are doing an amazing job if you are able to hold on to those customers
and stop them from walking out the door.
(45:39):
In terms of what research I'd like to see the CSI do more of, anything that makes thebusiness case for the customer service.
You know we're big on
gets a big tick in my book, but also the digital dimension.
you mentioned with your passport, there are so many different services as consumers thatare either going completely digital or digital is very much the norm now.
(46:07):
And no more so than with banking, online banking, we've seen branches shrink anddisappear.
It's been slightly conflated in the business.
with the needs to give people access to cash.
But actually I think what is the missing link here is giving people access to digitalservices.
Now if you have got very little money, can you afford to have a smartphone that's capableof running the latest app with your bank's security requirements?
(46:37):
Can you even afford to have a broadband connection in your property?
Meaning we're seeing digital exclusion.
It's not just older people who are affected by this, it's young people too.
That is one of the big drivers behind people wanting to visit these new fangored bankinghubs on high streets because they lack the access to the services.
They can't go online on a phone app and check their balance, pay their bills, etc.
(47:02):
But the service is being provided within the bank hubs, they've catered for that.
Yet, it's all very set up to providing access to cash.
That's not really the problem here, it's access to digital.
As more and more of our lives go online, what other areas of business are we going to seethat in?
Do we need a basic digital standard to bring the rest of the population up to give cheapor free broadband access to telephony to everybody in the population, bearing in mind that
(47:34):
the benefits system is largely becoming online first now, one of the reasons I haven'tseen any problems with pension from it.
I think that this is an issue that maybe in two generations' time won't be such an issuebecause people would have grown up with this.
There is some evidence as we get older we struggle more to learn new things so you knowthat point about choice but I think it's a really relevant point that you're making Claer
(48:01):
about access to digital and ensuring that that's not an exclusion.
Over the phone bit, think phones probably are less of an issue but know families having toshare laptops and things like that and there's definitely we have seen you know huge
issues and challenges.
How do you teach young children about spending their own money in a largely cashlessworld?
(48:25):
Yes, you can get them a card that's linked to an app, but the app has to be on a device.
Would a seven or an eight year old have access to a Obviously they can tap and paint inthe contactless payment card as much as they like, but are they actually getting the
money?
The money is going down.
These are real world problems.
(48:46):
businesses that are able to come up with brilliant ideas to solve these, the gaps, dothings in a different way for the digital era, take the customer with them.
There's a huge opportunity for that.
And I would agree completely.
I think that providing that wider resource, the outreach, understanding the observations,how customers are behaving, and you make a really valid point about younger people coming
(49:14):
through, having that access.
Claer, thank you so much for your time as always.
And it's always a joy to work with you.
And thank you for championing the work of the Institute as well.
Really, really appreciate it.
Thanks for having me on.
What a fantastic discussion.
I really enjoyed talking with Claer and getting her unique insight as someone whostraddles both the consumer and business worlds.
(49:38):
So join us next time where I will be talking to the brilliant customer service expert,Peter Cross, about the true meaning of customer experience and how it can be a
differentiator for your business.
Until then, take good care.
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