Causonomics with Dame Irene Hays

Jo Causon catches up with Dame Irene Hays, head of Hays Travel, where they talk about Dame Irene's fascinating career, and how great customer service has been a huge differentiator for Hays Travel. 

Music copyright:  Kevin MacLeod

Episode Transcript

(00:00):

you
Hello and a very warm welcome to another episode of Corsonomics with myself Jo Corson inconversation with business leaders, industry experts and influencers on what is really
driving the UK service economy.

(00:22):
In this week's episode, we are moving into the travel industry, something I certainly loveand indulge in as much as I possibly can.
And I have the pleasure of sitting down with none other than the brilliant Dame IreneHayes.
CEO of Hayes Travel.
I was very excited and also honoured to talk to Daymyrene about her incredible career andhow she has grown and differentiated Hayes Travel in an extremely competitive market.

(00:51):
I hope you enjoy the conversation as much as I did.
So welcome everybody and today's podcast we're in for a real treat because we have todaywith us Dame Irene Hayes.
She is of course the owner and chair of Hayes Travel, one of the top 100 companies to workfor in the UK and has been a champion and supporter of Beyond People.

(01:20):
She has a charitable arm of her business, the Hayes Travel Foundation, which was foundedback in 2015.
to help young people achieve and be the best that they can.
And this is a particular passion for you, Irene too, in their health, sport, the arts andeducation.
Irene also set up Hayes Travel Independence Group over 30 years ago, which was aboutreally driving entrepreneurship in the UK in both travel and tech.

(01:48):
What an amazing career and well-deserved to be a Dame and awarded the honorary doctorate.
Just an amazing.
around brilliant businesswoman in the UK.
So I'm absolutely delighted to be joined with Irene today and a very, very warm welcome toyou.
Thank you.
So, Irene, you have touched many parts of different businesses, different backgrounds,different experiences.

(02:14):
And I know you are particularly passionate about the importance of service.
something that we share, given the fact that 80 % of GDP in the UK is driven out ofservices and over 60 % of the workforce work in some form of related customer-facing role.
So what more can we be doing to drive up the importance of customer service?

(02:37):
Because we've talked before and said that many European countries, service is really seenas a profession and as a great career.
What's your thinking?
I mean that we could do to try and drive that further.
Okay, first of all, it's hugely important to the success of Hayes Travel.
When we set up the company 43 years ago, we had a fixed vision that we wanted Hayes Travelto be the most profitable independent travel agency in the UK, through valuing our people,

(03:05):
our customers and the communities that we operate.
So customer care and customer service excellence is that the absolute part of everythingthat we do.
On the national level,
in order that customer services can take the place that it should have.
It really needs to be given more importance and more focus at the top tables ofgovernment.

(03:34):
I traveled extensively, unsurprisingly, given the business that I'm in, and we are hostedby government representatives from other countries on a regular basis.
They are very senior.
politicians indeed, particularly in places such as Spain, but even Balearics.

(03:55):
They will have ministers sent to represent the interests of their country in relation tothe quality of the customer service that they provide.
It is perceived as a very important part of the community and of the economy.
As far as I'm...

(04:17):
able to ascertain that is backed up, for example, by training in the professionalisationof customer care as a long-term career.
So the education system, the college system and the university system are all vested inproducing the very best customer service professionals that they can.

(04:42):
So it is a whole system.
approach to making sure that where more jobs are emerging, and you've just identified thatnow the majority of jobs in the UK are in the service sector, where it is clear that that
is the case, then the other infrastructure to support the professionalism of the industryshould follow.

(05:05):
At the moment, I don't think that's happening.
I still think that, quite rightly, pharmaceuticals, the automotive industry, advancedmanufacturing
have a greater focus in the service industry and it would be good in the portfolios of ourministers if they could raise the importance of the agenda of service.

(05:29):
Absolutely and I couldn't agree more and certainly as you know at the Institute we'rereally campaigning for this and really championing the whole concept of service as a
profession and agree you know right from where that starts right at school all the waythrough your frontline jobs but also to some of the very top jobs that we're now looking
to because those skills those capabilities which customer service professionals have aregoing to be the bedrock of the future.

(05:58):
in terms of attracting people to invest in this country, but also to stay in this countryand to grow our own businesses here.
So definitely massive agreement with that.
And I agree too that it needs to have a greater focus from government, but also frombusiness as well.
And you've championed this all through your life.
mean, tell us a bit about Hayes and why you set it up.

(06:21):
It's a great story, I know, Irene, and I'm sure our listeners would love to hear from youabout that.
Why you set it up and what motivates you and drives you because you've had massive growth,you're acquiring lots of organisations but you still keep very true to your fundamental
vision and principles and values.
Now in a world where it's pretty demanding at the moment, tell us a bit about how you dothat.

(06:46):
After John came back from university, there wasn't a lot of money around and his familywere living in Seaham in County Durham.
His father was a joiner at the local colliery.
John was also always entrepreneurial and wanted to set up his own business and in a way itwouldn't cost a lot of money and where his dad could help him.

(07:07):
They looked at two options, one of which that we would start an undertaker's business orthat we would start a travel business.
Thank goodness, that shows the latte.
So his dad made, in the back of his mum's baby-ware shop, in Siem, what looked like a fishand chip shop, counter in the back of the shop.

(07:28):
And then he had a garden chalice, you know, those criss-cross garden chalice, separatingthe baby groves and the pants and the vests, which were at the front.
And then at the back, there was a counter and some brochure racks.
And at the start, the business saw
and exotics trips on buses to Edinburgh and York and then decided to branch out and see ifwe could have a license to sell holidays overseas.

(08:00):
So contacted ABTA, the Association of British Travel Agents and at that time, 43 yearsago, we didn't have emails then so we wrote a letter and said that we'd like to have
holidays overseas.
and inspected the premises and then two weeks later we received a letter saying, no youcan't.
So we wrote back, two weeks later they wrote and said, because you haven't even got yourown main entrance.

(08:25):
So we wrote back and said, that the only reason?
And they said, yes.
And we said, it's come to our attention that's a shop in London called Harrods and in theback is a travel agency called Thomas Cook.
Could you please explain the difference?
And they said,
Okay, you can sell for on holidays.
And that's where it all started with one store and three people.

(08:49):
And it's grown a bit since then.
So we currently have about 4,700 people and the turnovers changed significantly too.
But it was always a family values based business and still is to this day.
Tell us a bit about that.
How have you maintained that?
Because I do know this is something that's very important to you.

(09:12):
I know that you work very hard to be very visible with all of your colleagues.
I know that you care deeply about all the elements of the service chain and you are alwaysleading from the front in that sense.
But tell us about how you've maintained that because when you acquire lots of neworganisations, bringing them on board, taking them through the haze,

(09:34):
route and travel if you like.
It's not easy to do isn't it?
tell us about how you choose those organisations and how you embed them.
Okay, well, first of all, I have a fundamental belief that the person who is standing orsitting in front of the customer irrespective of who that customer is, be it internal or

(09:55):
external, is the single most important person in the company at that point in time.
So if I have a colleague who's sitting in front of someone who wants to buy a holiday inDevon, and my ability to
Influence that customer is zero.

(10:16):
At that point in time, they are the person with the ability, the skills and the talent tosell that customer the holiday that they want.
I believe that that happens within the internal market as well.
So if we have somebody in our retail support helping a colleague who is trying to arrangecomplicated land-based then...

(10:41):
cruise and another land-based holiday thereafter, they are the most important person.
There is no hierarchy in Hay's Travel.
Anybody who has paid a wage or a salary.
So the fundamental belief is that everybody who is being paid a wage or a salary isfundamentally important to the customer and to the business and needs to be valued.

(11:04):
So that shines through and I won't sing the jingle.
but we have a very well known jingle and it's called Smile Pays Trouble.
Nobody offers you more.
Which we have had verified through all the advertising standards and convinced them thatnobody does offer anyone more.
But the smile mnemonic, S-M-I-L-E, has always been part of a marketing campaign sonaturally we chose it.

(11:33):
And the values.
that it describes our supportive, motivational, innovative, and excellent.
And for each of those we are explicit about the way that we will support each other tosucceed, the way we will work as one team.
And I know that's an expression which is bandied about a lot, but it's true.

(11:54):
But to start with, you fundamentally have to believe that everybody who's sitting in frontof a customer is the most important person.
because they can do things that I never could and maybe there's one or two things I coulddo that they couldn't but were equally valuable.
Perhaps that's where some bigger corporate organisations lose their soul.

(12:16):
Each of our directors and our senior leadership team do back to the floor days and becauseI can't sell a holiday, saved my life.
I generally found myself making cups of tea for the customers.
I did clean out the teacup cupboard.
in the shop that I went to and they still had some sticky marks on the floor where duringCovid there were screens so they said we'll never get those off for now and see about

(12:40):
that.
So on my back to the floor I literally was back to our floor and I spent three and a halfhours on my knees getting sticky marks off which had been separation between the desks and
there was a photographer in it who took a picture and I got an email to say I bet you onlygot down on your knees for the photo and the manager and the staff said

(13:01):
no, she didn't.
So it's something which is really important and I hope my people know that they'recherished and valued because they're important.
It's a very simple thing, I don't think it's very sophisticated.
No, but it's a very honest answer and it's in your DNA.
That's what you're really talking about.
It's the leadership that you are imbueing to others.

(13:24):
And I think it's really fascinating about the fact that actually it's really putting thecustomer at the heart of your business, but your people at the heart of that business too,
because they are serving that customer.
And it goes back to where we started the conversation that it's actually quite a privilegeto serve.
And in the UK, think sometimes we forget that.

(13:44):
It's our ability to be able to help or enable somebody else.
Nothing makes us feel better either, does it?
Than being able to unlock a problem, solve someone's issue, be able to create anexperience that makes their life better.
I think that's an intrinsically really important thing and a really valuable lesson for usall.
So that's really interesting about how you've kept those values, how that down to earthcommitment to your colleagues and to your customers is very clear.

(14:14):
and you can see that throughout that experience.
And not all organisations do that, particularly when they grow.
So that's very powerful in terms of understanding that.
And clearly it works because the economics of Hayes Travel have also the growth thatyou've achieved, everything else, that simple message about linking employee engagement,
customer experience to financial outcome.

(14:35):
Hayes is a really good example of being able to demonstrate that.
I also think, Ari, something that I know you are very passionate about and have
campaigned for, worked very hard at, a number of the foundation that you created is aboutyoung people and about bringing that talent through young people.
Tell us a bit more about that, why you feel that is so important and how that drives youand the work that you do.

(15:01):
I suppose it's because I had an epiphany when I was very young.
I went back to work in Sunderland in the late 1970s and went on to a managementdevelopment program.
And one morning, a cold, wet morning in Sunderland in the vehicle maintenance depot in agas office next to the canteen, I was part of a panel being

(15:30):
given the opportunity to understand how you terminated someone's contract or employment.
So at the time it was called a YTS scheme and there was a young guy called Gary.
Gary had had a problem with quite like to drink and he had a problem getting out of bed inthe morning and he had an informal verbal warning.

(15:51):
He'd had a verbal warning.
He'd had a written warning and a final written warning and he's a
problems getting into rogue gun time.
So was sitting there trying to understand how one carried out an interview and there was asupervisor from the Air Vehicle Maintenance Depot on one side, HR representative in the

(16:14):
middle and me on the left.
Gary came in with his mentor, a guy called Ted, and HR professional went through all ofthe details with Gary.
Gary was wearing a big puffer jacket and chewing gum.
After she'd finished, she said, so unfortunately, as a result of having gone through alldue process and Ted interjected and said, hang on a minute, hang on a minute, have you

(16:43):
never had a drink and have you never been late for work?
She sat up very straight in her seat and Ted said, I'm telling you, if your own lads got atalent and if you give him just one more chance, just give him another chance.
I'll make a decent mechanic of him.
He's a talented lad when he's here.
So she said, go and sit outside in the canteen.

(17:07):
Then when the door closed, she turned to the supervisor and the supervisor said, I don'tknow.
Been giving every chance that lad, every chance.
And she turned to him and she said, what do you think, Irene?
I said, I just loved it.
Can we just do this for Ted?
And gave Gary another chance.
So we came back in.

(17:27):
She really...
tourist trip off Gary, really gave him a good talking to and went through all of the stepsthat we'd taken.
And she said, and simply as a result of Ted, you know, him really fighting for you, we'regoing to give you this one little chance.
So off they went.
Anyway, about a week and a half later, I bumped into Ted in the Civic Center and I said,oh, hi, how are you doing?

(17:52):
And he said, I'll tell you a story.
He said, after that meeting, he said, I went then to back at the temple.
And Gary had his head on his arm and he was leaning against the back of the old wall andhis face was wet.
And I said to her, what's wrong with you?
You never had a tan enough before.
And Gary said, oh, I have been told off plenty.

(18:13):
I haven't ever had anybody stick up for me the more.
And for me, was a case, one single case where I just saw that the opportunity and I doknow that.
Gary went on to great things.
He actually left the council and went to run a bus depot for the local bus company and wasa very good mechanic.

(18:33):
And since then, I have looked at various people in Gary's situation, came out of schooland encumbered by qualification.
Perhaps the education system didn't suit him at all, but somebody believed in him andsomebody mentored him to the extent where at that point in time, the light bulb

(18:54):
went on and he said, if I'm going to do something with my life, I'm going to do this.
So I love the YTS scheme and all of the various situations of apprenticeships.
And this year we have 631 apprentices, but it's not all on the goodness of my heart.
It's because they play a hugely significant role in the success of his travel.

(19:18):
They really, really do for variety of reasons.
Just to capture that moment, mean, a very powerful story, Irene, about compassion, beingprepared to take a risk too.
And so often in businesses, particularly in today's world where we have a lot of laws andstructure around things and focus about what you saw and what Ted saw was that ability,

(19:45):
real innate ability in somebody and to take that and to harness that, but to take risk.
Because you took a risk, Ted took a risk, and sometimes we have to, don't we?
And in a world which is much more challenged, I think still remembering that and bettingon the right people.
But tell us a bit more about the apprenticeship.
I probably started using handheld devices when I was about 30 years old and the size of abrick.

(20:12):
Today, 84 % of babies under the age of nine months in the developed world will use ahandheld device.
The young people that I employ today are 631.
We do have some older apprentices, but the young cohort is 631.
They have been using

(20:33):
social media and are very familiar with the digital world, how it works, Instagram,TikTok, I've just judged the latest cohorts, TikTok recruitment campaign.
They know much more about that than we do.
And within Hayes Travel, social media is vitally important.

(20:55):
It really is the number one route to market, as are increasingly social influencers,YouTube.
So the marriage of having young people who have grown up in this world with experiencedtravel professionals is vitally important.
Basically, they teach each other.

(21:17):
We learn an inordinate amount of things from our young people and we know that they learna lot from us.
Before we acquired Thomas Cook in October of 2019, 42 % of our senior
managers started their lives as apprentices and when my husband John died in 2020, Iappointed as the Chief Operating Officer someone who had started his life as an apprentice

(21:45):
at the age of 16 in Hays Travel, worked in a store, was clearly very successful at that,came into head office and has an absolute raw intellect, particularly around number,
putting through his accountancy qualification.
He is phenomenal.
very well regarded nationally.
So he was appointed and three weeks ago he completed 20 years of service with us and atthe ripe old age of 36 he is the Chief Upregnaging Officer of the largest independent

(22:18):
travel agency in the UK and it's well deserved.
did that, all we did was given the right environment, the love to have.
to the right opportunity.
You took some decisions and some choices early on.
I think it's really interesting what you're talking about learning as well and thebrilliance of learning from new and more mature and taking that through that journey.

(22:39):
But also you've given structure to lots of people so that they can achieve.
And I think this whole sense of in a world which is really challenging at the moment in acountry like ourselves that needs to grow, you've clearly demonstrated their eye ring.
the ability inside Hayes, the sky's the limit.
You can start right at the front and move all the way through.

(23:01):
And I think that's the great thing around service related roles.
then going back to where we started the conversation about why service is so important tothe growth of the economy and to many of our businesses, because there is a genuine
opportunity to see real development in people and to achieve that.
think as well as we move towards artificial intelligence, which all of the young people innow with pretty much our whole workforce have embraced.

(23:29):
There is a lot of learning around emotional intelligence that people coming out of schoolsand colleges perhaps need to relearn.
Many of them have the misfortune of spending two and a half years in their bedroom tryingto keep up with their classwork.
Remotely, that's really tough.
and we need to make sure that we compensate for that.

(23:54):
But the ability to relate to other people when you're a travel or any customer serviceprofessional is vitally important.
And again, that marriage of artificial intelligence and emotional intelligence would beincreasingly important.
I was speaking to the new cohort of apprentices who think it's very

(24:19):
cool not to smile.
So we have to, say to them, it's part of who we are.
And as I walk into work in the morning, I smile and say, morning to everybody.
And if I have an apprentice who's trying to look really cool, they're not going to getaway without smiling back.
And at the end of the apprenticeship session, I smile at everybody around the room.

(24:44):
We fish the entire audience in the room.
Next to the old smile before I leave.
and I do agree, are in the marriage of being able to use AI and EI is absolutely thefuture.
When we think about customer service professionals, they will have the ability to behugely empathetic, connected and all those emotional things which we need as human beings,

(25:10):
but also utilizing brilliant technology to make us more efficient, more effective and todrive some of those changes and...
Smart organizations are really working out how to deploy both, not either or, and how welearn that, grow that, and develop that will mean that the customer service professional
of tomorrow will be very different to the customer service professional of 10 years ago,of now, and that growth, that ability to be able to do that, I think is fundamentally

(25:38):
critical in how we develop the service profession.
Absolutely, I'm often asked, do I think that there'll be a future for travel professionalsas artificial intelligence develops.
It's very difficult for me to envision a situation where, for example, one of my assistantmanagers had two elderly folk who were going on their last cruise.

(26:03):
The husband was not in particularly good health, but wanted to go on the last cruise.
And they brought their passports in.
to have photocopies taken and I'm sure you know what's coming here, so the wife's passporthad run out and they were due to travel in two weeks' time.
So the travel consultant went on the website, took a copy of the passport application formand their faces dropped.

(26:30):
They just couldn't countenance going through all of the bureaucracy, sending away thepassport.
And she was going on a hindu in London at the weekend.
and she stood for four and a half hours outside the passport office and got a passport forthe woman and they bought her a box of milk a drink.

(26:53):
Which was very, very lovely, but more importantly, they got to go on their cruise.
Now, I think we're way, way from artificial intelligence doing that, that you know I couldbe wrong.
Absolutely, and it's not going the extra mile and it's back to where you started thisconversation about nothing is more important than the customer that sat in front of you
and that thinking out the box, that problem solving, and the fact that you have colleaguesin your organization that think that way, care as much as they do will always mean that

(27:27):
Hayes Travel will be enormously successful.
It makes me very, very proud.
You know they say, if you employ great people, you'll get great service.
And we employ great people.
and you choose well.
And that's the important part of that too, and train and develop well.
So we've talked a bit about why young people are important, why they're important to you,why they're important to Hayes, why they're important to the UK economy.

(27:50):
We've touched on technology and how that is developing and the happy alliance between,hopefully happy alliance between AI and EI.
We've also touched on what we want from business and government in terms of really gettingbehind
the service industries and really acknowledging and recognising that this is a professionand we need to really stand up for the profession.

(28:15):
So I think there's so much to do on that and actually, I mean, you know I'm thinking aboutthe moment, the service university and how we're going to try and develop that and get
that off the ground.
So some exciting developments on that side too from the Institute.
Is there anything else we haven't?
covered that you feel particularly passionate about that you would like to either sharewith other business colleagues or indeed government or other stakeholders given we are at

(28:43):
quite a challenging time and we've got a lot to do but I get the sense from you that thereis real positivity, there is real opportunity and I always feel that when I have pleasure
of spending time with you and real opportunity to galvanize UK PLC.
But what one or two things do you think we could really do?
So think there's been a lot of talk recently about business growth and I think businessesare pretty similar to apprentices, that if you have a business person or even someone

(29:13):
who's come straight out of college or school and has a great idea, that business alsoneeds to have arms wrapped around them and to be given as much practical help as they
possibly can be so that they can bring their idea to fruition.
You mentioned at the outset that one arm of the business is the Hayes Travel IndependenceGroup, where independent individuals who trade under a completely different name have an

(29:41):
opportunity to come in and let us know what their business proposition is.
In Sunderland in our head office our lovely colleagues there will deliver perhaps thelegal work, the bonding, make the supplier payments.
So to use an example we have...
a very successful business that just does weddings and honeymoons.

(30:02):
And they're very good at carrying out all legal requirements in countries around the worldso that people can take their family and go and get married in so near kinds.
And we make sure that their bills are paid on time, that they satisfy the UK legislation.
Because we have lawyers and accountants and support people who can do that, I think thatis truly analogous.

(30:27):
with how we help young people to thrive and flourish.
And we in Hayes Travel have helped young entrepreneurs.
I'm thinking of two young men who came in to talk to John and I, I would say 18 years ago,with an idea.
This year they'll turn over about 150 million in total transaction value.

(30:51):
Even if those businesses then go on to do services at the independence group.
are providing for them and they can have the financial website to do that on their own,we're very proud and would continue to support them.
I don't see that infrastructure being developed very well either.
At the moment, I think there's a lot of rhetoric about big ticket investment and privateequity.

(31:18):
I think we need to look at both sides of the scale of businesses and how, you do have ayoung entrepreneur,
They're not looking for a hundred million in private equity who want to 45 % of theirshareholding.
They're looking for an organisation that cares about their idea and will give it the verybest chance to succeed.

(31:41):
I think that gap needs plucking.
Absolutely, so how we nurture good ideas, put your arms around it, structure that and helpit to really flourish and how we develop our people to also support that.
So that we have this sense of whether you're a small business, scaling small businesses,enable them to get bigger as well to see how they grow.

(32:03):
Because I guess if you think about Hayes, Hayes started as a small business and then hasgrown to be how successful you are today.
Yes, you know, we had help.
We've never ever had any debt.
We acquired Thomas Cook without taking any debt.
And as we sit here today, you know, made formal acquisitions last year.

(32:26):
We have no debt.
We pretty much learned through having the scars ourselves about what it takes to build abusiness and the ups and the downs and the good things that happen.
But there's also always humps and bumps along the way.
where you just need somebody to pick you up, dust you down and say, you're doing fine,this is perfectly normal.

(32:50):
What we need to do is perhaps a bit of financial help here, perhaps a bit more trainingthere, whatever it is.
I don't think that that's rocket science.
And for the last 30 years we've done it and have made many people, we haven't made them,we have supported them to become millionaires.
And that's really joyful work.

(33:11):
But if that could be scaled on a national scale, I think that would be very good for theUK, very good for the economy, very good for human entrepreneurs.
came up with the idea in first place.
Irene, it's such a pleasure to be able to spend some time with you and I'm really struckby a number of core themes, whether that was Gary, taking the risk on Gary, taking the

(33:33):
risk on the young entrepreneur, but supporting them.
It's not just about taking that risk, it's about putting our arms around them to use yourwords, it's about nurturing, it's about being clear, being focused and it's about putting
the customer at the very heart of your business.
Irene, thank you so much for your time today and...
I really do hope that some government officials are listening to our podcast and canreally kind of build on many of the things that you have been talking about.

(34:00):
I'm not going to be allowed to get away without finishing today to ask you one lastquestion.
One single business change or change that business leaders can implement today to changethe future of customer service.
What would your one line be on
couldn't be more than one line.
It would be tell everybody how important it is.

(34:21):
Tell the people who are doing it how important it is to you and how much you appreciatewhat they're doing and then make sure that you back that up with the very best training,
the very best support that you possibly can that will pay dividends not just on the bottomline but in terms of the quality of life and the future.

(34:44):
business.
Dame Irene, thank you.
Absolute pleasure as always.
Really appreciate your time today.
Well, what an insightful and enjoyable conversation.
I'm always struck by Dame Irene's passion and empathy, as well as her considerablebusiness acumen, all of which contributes to the continued success of Hayes travel and the

(35:06):
communities that she works in and serves.
Join us next week, where I'll be talking to yet another
prominent and decorated business expert Sir John Timpson.
He will be joining me to discuss how his unusual approach to management creates a level ofservice that keeps Timpson consistently at the top of the UK Customer Satisfaction Index.

(35:28):
Until then, go care.