February 24, 2025 • 38 mins
Stephen Lawrence was murdered by a gang of racist youths, it would take 19 years for his family to get justice.
Case begins at - 7:34
Follow us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/choosingthebear?igsh=MWR4dDRuYzZoZXoxeA%3D%3D&utm_source=qr Follow us on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@choosingthebearpod?_t=ZG-8t7dQlu3yqG&_r=1
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This podcast contains graphic content.
(00:02):
Lesson of caution is recommended.
Specifically, today's episode of Choosing the Bear contains themes and discussion of racism and murder.
Hello, welcome to Choosing the Bear, a true crime podcast.
My name is Lois and with me is my co-host slash brother Daniel.
(00:25):
Today's episode is on the murder of Stephen Lawrence.
So, Daniel, happy Thursday.
I mean, happy Thursday.
It is Thursday.
It's a different day.
We normally record on Fridays, but not today.
No, today we're doing a Thursday recording.
I know, we're switching things up.
I don't like it.
The routine has, well, it's really gone and I feel sick.
(00:46):
I mean, we never really did have a routine.
But we were starting one.
The Fridays were becoming a regular thing.
Was it?
The last, yeah, the last three have been Fridays.
Oh, I mean, all my days just morph into one.
That's really sad.
I know.
Nothing different about your life.
I feel like this week, I've just wanted this week to be over.
(01:09):
And I really shouldn't be like wasting my life away, even though the job I'm doing is just that.
But like, I really shouldn't.
But I just, I just want a good night's sleep.
I just want to lie in past six o'clock.
Jesus Christ.
What a way to start off an episode.
I'm just so tired.
(01:31):
Jesus.
I just want a good night's sleep.
But you know, what do we do?
We get up and we carry on and we graft.
We graft.
I'm the opposite.
I'm such an early bird now.
This new job, this routine, say new job, been in it for a month now.
But this routine is just, oh, I love it.
I mean, it makes me really tired at night.
By like half 10, my eyes are watering because I'm that tired.
(01:54):
I think, I think I need to go to the doctors.
Well, the optician's about my eyes because yeah, no, I generally have tears streaming.
Yeah, I don't know why.
It's a bit weird.
Glasses are like, not cheap, but like cheaper than what I thought.
Like I got mine done probably like three months ago when it was only 45 pound for the glasses and the lenses.
And I read all the way down to the bottom line.
(02:16):
My optician was absolutely buzzing.
Absolutely beside themselves.
They couldn't believe their eyes.
No, seriously.
Me and my boyfriend watched, yeah, last episode I was saying how I had so many things to watch and everything's just been put on the back burner because we started One Piece.
(02:45):
Um, like the real life version, not the anime.
And oh my God, it was actually so good.
It's so different to what we would normally watch.
Yeah, no, when you said that you, him, I was about to say his name, you and him were watching One Piece.
I was like, why?
Neither of you seem to like that sort of thing.
No, I don't know.
I mean, he just seen it and was like, let's watch this.
(03:08):
And I was like, oh, yeah, cool.
And now he's like, obsessed.
And he wants to watch all Pirates of the Caribbean.
So once we've got this, we're going to watch Pirates of the Caribbean.
Yeah.
And they're coming out with, um, One Piece Lego and, um, he was looking at merch as well, like t-shirts.
Do you think this is like a current hyper fixation?
(03:30):
Yes.
A few minutes time.
This will be gone.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
A few minutes.
I know it's been a bit generous.
Give it a couple of weeks.
A couple of weeks and it'll be off it.
So what have you been watching and enjoying?
I'm, it's really quite boring.
I mean, actually, no, me and my girlfriend, we've been watching Line of Duty, which is quite good.
We just finished season three the other night and, um, what a finale.
(03:53):
Is that on BBC?
It is now, yes.
We're watching that and also watching Inside Number Nine.
That's where we have dinner.
But, um, like me, myself, I'm just doing Star Wars.
I'm still, I've locked myself into like watching every Star Wars film and series in chronological order because I've never done it before.
I'm currently on Andor.
That means nothing to you, but there's people who do know Star Wars, if there are anyone watching or listening.
(04:15):
Um, currently on Andor, everyone loves it.
I don't personally.
I'm a bit, I'm a bit fucking bored.
Is it a film or series?
Series.
I'm on episode seven.
I'm really, really bored.
It's tough soldering on in it when you're watching a shit TV show, but it's got to be done.
I've been there a couple of times.
(04:36):
I don't like it.
So I'm not even going to entertain.
And everyone knows at this point what we're on about.
Season two, I am struggling.
I mean, the past few days I haven't been able to watch Daredevil because I've been watching One Piece, but I'm obsessed with One Piece.
Can't get enough of it.
I'm just not looking forward to going back.
You need to.
(04:57):
I know, but I don't really want to.
No, I was looking into buying the helmet the other day.
What helmet?
The Daredevil helmet.
You can get it from the Disney store in America for $80, but in the UK, that's not possible.
So people are selling it online for 120 quid.
And I thought, Oh, bit steep with 67 pounds postage.
(05:22):
So you best believe I press buy.
Why is that being shipped from the UK?
If it's from the Disney store in the US, why would it be shipped from the UK?
Yeah, but you said people are reselling it for 110.
Yeah, on eBay.
I didn't buy it.
Are you mad?
No, but you said people are reselling on eBay for that much with 67 pound postage.
(05:47):
Yeah, so the people on eBay reselling it for 67 pounds.
I don't know.
I didn't.
Oh God, it's so many numbers.
I don't care.
I didn't ask them.
I looked at it and went, fucking hell, that's insane.
So where...
Oh, right.
So the postage was the price from the Disney store.
I don't know.
I didn't go any further.
I looked at it and went, fuck.
You just said 67 pound postage.
(06:07):
Yeah, but I didn't then go in and be like, so Mum, why is it 67 quid?
What's that about?
I saw it, went, fuck that, and then just assumed there'd be one in the UK at some point.
On the Disney store or on eBay?
eBay.
Okay.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
All right.
I'm hoping for one in the UK, then I might buy one, because it looks sick.
(06:29):
And I think I could shave my beard down and then I could have the daredevil stubble.
It's actually wearable.
No, no, it's for your feet.
What are you thinking?
God's sake.
Well, there's Disney stores in England.
Yeah, but it's not in the England ones.
Oh, right.
I've looked.
(06:49):
Do you not think I have?
So you've got yourself in a bit of a pickle.
Not really, because it's not, you know...
It doesn't really matter.
Wow.
In whose eyes?
I'm going to sit with that.
That's a pretty good question, actually.
I'm going to sit and really stew that one over.
Oh, no.
How will we live?
(07:12):
Anyway.
All right.
Anywho.
Do you recognise the name Stephen Lawrence?
No.
I don't think so.
Again, it might be similar to ones before, or midway through.
I'm like, oh, shit, I do know this one.
But face value, no, I do not.
Okay.
(07:32):
Well, let's begin.
Stephen Lawrence was born on the 13th of September 1974 in Greenwich District Hospital, London.
At the time of his birth, Stephen's father, Neville Lawrence, was a carpenter, and his mother, Doreen, was a special needs teacher.
Stephen was the oldest of their children.
His brother, Stuart, was born in 1976, and his sister, Georgina, was born in 1982.
(07:58):
The family lived in Plumstead, South East London.
Stephen's parents had immigrated to the UK from Jamaica in the 1960s.
Stephen was enrolled at Blackheath Bluecoat Church of England School.
God, that is a long school name, isn't it?
Blackheath Church of England School.
No, Blackheath Bluecoat.
Blackheath Bluecoat Church of England School.
(08:18):
Yeah.
Got it down.
And had aspirations of becoming an architect.
At school, Stephen studied technology, physics and English language.
He excelled in running and was a team member for Cambridge Harriers Athletics Club and was preparing for his A-Levels.
I don't know why I'm stumbling so much on words today.
(08:39):
Just take a second, just chill.
And I hope.
On the 22nd of April 1993, Stephen had spent the day at his school studying for his A-Levels.
One of his teachers, Bob Henderson, remembered Stephen being an enthusiastic student.
Once he'd finished for the day, he went to a few shops in Lewisham and then caught the bus to his uncle's house in Grove Park.
(09:02):
Lawrence then met his friend, Duane Brooks.
They had spent some time together and began to head home at around 10pm.
The first available bus would have gotten them home too late.
Instead, the pair decided to go to another bus stop on Walehall Road.
Stephen and Duane arrived at the bus stop at 10.25pm. Stephen walked down the road to the junction of Dixon Road to see if he could see the bus, while Duane waited at the bus stop.
(09:25):
Approaching, he could see a group of six white youths.
They were initially on the opposite side of the road and were heading towards Duane.
At 10.38pm, Duane shouted up to Stephen to see if he could see the bus.
The group of youths heard Duane and began shouting racial slurs.
Within seconds, the group crossed the road and quote, engulfed Stephen.
(09:47):
He was forced to the ground and was stabbed by one or more of the group members.
At this time, Duane was a short distance away and he turned and called out to Stephen, telling him to run.
His stab wounds were about 5 inches or 13 centimetres on both sides on the front of his body, the right collarbone and his left shoulder.
(10:08):
Both of these stab wounds severed Stephen's auxiliary arteries before penetrating his lung.
Due to his artery being severed, Stephen lost feeling in his right arm and was suffering from breathing difficulties, bleeding severely from the stab wounds.
The group of attackers fled the scene down Dixon Road.
Duane was running towards Shooter's Hill.
(10:28):
Despite his injuries and condition, this actually makes me want to bawl my eyes out.
Despite his injuries and condition, Stephen got up and began running, following Duane.
Stephen was able to run over 100 yards whilst bleeding from his severed arteries.
Dr Shepherd, the pathologist, said it is a testimony to Stephen's physical fitness that he was able to run the distance he did before collapsing.
(10:52):
That's insane.
So he literally had 5 inch or 13 centimetre long stab wounds and he was still moving.
Yeah.
But not just moving, like yeah.
Run, jog, 100 yards.
Duane called an ambulance and an off-duty police officer stopped and covered Stephen with a blanket.
(11:16):
At the scene of the stabbing, there wasn't mass amounts of blood on the pavement as Stephen was wearing 5 layers of clothing.
However, in the place where he collapsed, witnesses recall a substantial amount of blood.
Stephen was placed into the recovery position and was taken to Brook General Hospital.
However, by 11.05pm, Stephen was pronounced dead.
(11:36):
So just stabbed in a completely unprovoked racial attack.
I was going to say that there's no sort of motive there besides the racism obviously.
Yeah.
Just racist.
Scum.
Three people witnessed the attack and gave statements to the police.
All described the attack as being sudden and short and none were able to identify the suspects.
(12:00):
However, the police received anonymous tips from the public to help in their investigation.
Several residents came forward to provide police with names of the suspects.
A note was left on a police car windscreen while another note was left in a telephone box and named a local gang.
Wow.
And you can Google, I did literally just Google it like 5 minutes before we start recording, like see if there was a picture of the note.
(12:28):
There's one, I don't know if it's like official, well the ones I've seen, I don't know if they are official, I haven't like verified them, I've just seen them on Google Images.
But there's one where I can't really read the writing and then there's another one where it's like suspects names and they're like numbered.
Wow.
So like a real community piling together.
(12:49):
And I feel like they, like leaving a note, it's not like you're writing on the note.
I mean they might have but like oh, if you want any more information contact, like leaving a note is quite a somewhat anonymous way to provide information.
Especially just leaving it on a police car windscreen.
I feel like it implies that they're afraid of being known as the one who provided the information.
(13:14):
Like the whole snitches get stitches sort of scenario.
You feel like that's more like in films, you know like a whole community sort of banding together to try and help, you know, rectify someone else's mistakes.
But that's mad though, yeah.
Sort of like leaving notes on cars.
But yeah, I think you're right about like not leaving any details on that purely for fear you know, that someone could have seen it, say they were part of that gang and then they themselves then become a target.
(13:41):
And then how bad is it that like a attack or murder or like racial attack happens and people suspect that they know who it is like?
Yeah.
You should never suspect anyone of doing that.
You should never know to suspect anyone.
Yeah.
Like they've got people in mind already which just says about who they know.
(14:03):
Yeah.
The suspects named in the notes were Gary Dobson, Luke Knight, David Norris and brothers Neil and Jamie Accourt.
The suspects had previously committed other knife attacks and racial attacks in the area.
Four months before the murder of Stephen, Gary and Neil were involved in a racially motivated attack on a black teenager at Kevin London.
(14:24):
Kevin was friends with Stephen Lawrence and had been attacked by the same gang that was at the time suspected of murdering Stephen.
In November 1992, Kevin was outside his hospital with his girlfriend when he was approached by Gary and Neil.
They verbally abused him and attempted to stab him.
Kevin recognised Gary as they had attended the same school.
(14:44):
So it's just absolute scumbags.
Yeah.
Targeting.
Really like, oh god, it really just winds me up like any form of hate as we've said before, but like any racism, homophobia, transphobia, the list goes on.
It's just insane and there is really, I don't understand the reason for it.
(15:07):
And it's horrible in today's world as well how that shit is more and more sort of reinforced as a um acceptable thing to do.
I feel like it's more, yeah, I was just gonna say, yeah.
I swear there was a point a couple years back now where some woman, it was in London I think, some woman got like racially abused on the tube or some shit.
(15:30):
Something like that.
And the guy was like, oh it's popular now, we can do this now.
Because something had happened quite mainstream where someone was racist and from the woodwork, these like racists that were like, well they're doing it in mainstream stuff so why can't we do it?
So like it's a very high mind mentality that like as soon as one goes, the others all follow.
(15:55):
And then just because someone does it, why does it make it seem acceptable for you to do it?
Obviously I know it's the response that they get but in no society should we accept any form of hate for someone just living.
Yeah, it's just fucking backwards.
Apart from this incident, Neil had more run-ins with the police in the past.
(16:15):
In 1994, a covert police officer recorded him going on a racist rant.
This has like a racial slur but obviously, I'm not going to say it.
Neil was captured saying, quote, I think every should be chopped up and left with stumps.
So...
Oh man, psychotic.
(16:36):
Weeks before Stephen's attack, Neil was implicated in the stabbing of teenager Stacey Benefield.
In 2001, Neil was convicted for possessing an offensive weapon, a baton, which he claimed would only be used for personal protection.
In 2002, Neil and Gary were jailed for shouting racial slurs at an off-duty police officer as they drove away from him.
(16:58):
Another attack occurred in May 1992 when Jamie was accused of stabbing Darren Witham and Darren Giles in 1994.
At this time, locals claimed that Jamie had a fascination with knives.
Jamie was permanently excluded from school due to a racial attack.
He confronted a black pupil at the top of the flight of stairs and kicked Shaun down, knocking him unconscious.
(17:20):
Christ, man.
What were you doing?
In school.
Where were you learning this one, please?
Yeah, well, I was sort of trying to think of like, oh maybe it's this, but no, where have you learned that from?
Who has instilled that in you?
I mean, I'm not specifically like going to the parents, but, because obviously, anyone can be influenced by anyone.
(17:46):
Yeah, but it's still, it's very alarming that you're in your school years and have that much hatred for someone.
Three days after Stephen's murder, the prime suspect had been identified but were not arrested until two weeks later.
The police didn't inspect the suspect's houses for four days.
Due to the lack of urgency shown by the police, the Lawrence family felt that not enough was done to arrest and convict Stephen's killers.
(18:12):
Detective Superintendent Brian Whedon began leading the murder investigation from the third day and had also been leading the murder squad for 14 months.
In a later inquiry into how the police handled Stephen's case, he explained that part of the reason for the delay in arrests was that he wasn't aware someone could be arrested for reasonable suspicion.
(18:32):
I beg your pardon?
What do you mean?
I mean, I understand how it's suspicion, but also you have had, like, numerous different anonymous somewhat tips of people saying, check these people out.
Like, it's not an unwarranted suspicion.
And you're saying you can't, like...
(18:52):
So how he got to be a detective superintendent, I'm not really sure.
However, on May 7th, 1993, Gary Dobson, Neil and Jamie O'Court were arrested.
David Norris turned himself in to police three days later.
On the 3rd of June, Luke Knight was arrested.
Neil and Luke Knight were charged with the murder on the 13th of May and 23rd of June.
(19:16):
However, on the 29th of July, their charges were dropped as the Crown Prosecution Service claimed there was insufficient evidence.
On April 16th, 1994, the CPS said that they didn't have enough evidence to charge the other suspects with murder.
One of the main issues was regarding Dwayne picking Neil O'Court out of the police line-up.
This was seen as not being strong enough evidence to be presented in court.
(19:40):
Which, I mean...
I somewhat get it, because you could just pick anyone from a line-up, but then when you...
But then, you're picking someone out of a line-up.
Stephen's mum and dad were rightfully so outraged.
They launched their own private prosecution in September 1994.
(20:02):
This is when a prosecution is started by someone who is not acting on behalf of the police or other prosecuting authority.
The average cost is around £8,500.
And I don't know, I can't remember, I think that might be currently, like now, not in 1990.
Right, adjusted for inflation.
For, yeah.
But still, nearly £10,000.
(20:23):
There would have still been a lot of money back then, yeah, but that just shows, I mean, at that point then, when you're trying to get justice and things, like money isn't really an object.
Oh no.
Like, you'll find a way to get it.
And I couldn't, I can't, I mean, this is where I and we are white privileged, because I could never imagine like, having anything like this happen full stop, but then having like an investigation be so failed and have to do things on your own.
(20:55):
Yeah.
Literally, the justice system failed me, so I'm literally having to fund this and get justice for my family and myself.
Yeah.
Awful.
An inquest was held surrounding the circumstances of Stephen's murder in February 1997.
Even though the five suspects refused to answer any questions, the jury's deliberation decided that Stephen was killed in a, quote, completely unprovoked racist attack by five youths.
(21:24):
I mean, hit the nail on the head.
Yeah, like, what else could it have been?
Just from the bare description alone, that's exactly what it was.
In 2005, a law was changed.
The common law rule that once an accused person had been acquitted couldn't be tried for a second time for the same crime.
Meaning if new evidence was found, the suspects that were found not guilty in the first trial would be able to be brought to trial again.
(21:49):
In June 2006, Stephen's case and evidence was re-examined.
It was found that a microscopic amount of Stephen's blood was found on Gary Dobson's jacket.
As the stain was microscopic, why can I not say that word?
Microscopic?
It was concluded that the blood stain must have been transferred at the crime scene as it was so small and dried instantly.
(22:12):
Fibers and hairs belonging to Stephen were also found on Gary and Gary and God, there's so many names floating around, I'm getting more jumbled up.
Was also found on Gary and David Norris' clothes.
On the 8th of September 2010, Gary Dobson and David Norris were arrested and charged with murder.
(22:32):
However, reporting restrictions were placed onto media outlets from informing the public of their arrest.
A trial was set for the 14th of November 2011.
The new forensic evidence would be presented.
On January 3rd 2012, the jury deliberated for 8 hours and found Gary and David guilty of Stephen Lawrence's murder.
(22:54):
Gary was sentenced to a minimum of 15 years and 2 months and 14 years and 3 months for David.
The judge stated that he had considered their ages at the time of the crime and acknowledged that their sentencing was lower than some might expect.
As an adult being charged with this crime, the maximum sentence could have been 30 years.
(23:16):
So, 2011 was when they were found guilty?
He was found guilty for murdering Stephen in 2012 and he was murdered in 1993.
Christ.
And I'm not good at quick math but that is...
(23:36):
19 years, I think.
That's just like an absolute piss take and just absolutely insane.
Just under 2 decades.
And heart-wrenching.
Because that family was in fighting for justice for that long.
Just under 2 decades.
And it's like, well if it was to be a white person or like...
(24:00):
Yeah, if it was to be a white person...
Oh my God, yes.
Within 6 months this case would be like evidence found, charged.
Backwards, it's probably archaic.
And this isn't even like that long ago.
No, no it's not.
On the 30th of January 2012 Gary and David were appealing their sentences, however it failed on the first round.
(24:21):
I know I've said this in like the last couple of episodes but it really fucks me off when people appeal their sentences or like try and apply for parole early before they're eligible.
Because it just shows that like they don't think they're doing anything wrong.
They're not bothered.
There's a complete lack of disregard.
They just want to get out.
(24:43):
I'm bored of this now.
I want to go so I'm going to give it a shot.
When it's your actions that got you in there in the first place.
They don't give a fuck do they?
They don't care.
Many inquiries and investigations were launched with a number of findings found.
One was that the Met Police was institutionally racist, meaning racism is deemed normal and acceptable behaviour within organisations.
(25:04):
There were 70 recommendations for the force to reform.
Christ.
Oh god like this is as well where we're also privileged in the fact that we like just like we learn about this.
We don't learn about it through experience in it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're reading up on these things.
It's not knowledge to us because we know it's happened to someone that whatever.
(25:28):
And like when we've encountered police it's not like I've never felt like intimidated or like anything like that or somewhat threatened or anything.
Yeah.
Like that you're being watched.
Yeah.
Or like suspected of doing something.
It's actually an insane insanely different experience.
(25:48):
Something that should be welcomed and hopeful like I'm here now the police are here.
I should be protected.
I should be safe now.
Yeah.
But then it can be viewed for like as another threat.
You've called them to protect you from a threat and yet another potential one has just rocked up.
Oh god.
(26:10):
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh god.
Yeah that's god.
I mean I know but Jesus just the way you described that was really chilling.
In March 2006 the Metropolitan Police announced it was paying £100,000 to Dwayne Brooks as compensation for how the police handled his involvement in the case.
(26:33):
On the 22nd of April 2018 the 25th anniversary of his murder the Prime Minister Theresa May announced an annual day of remembrance for Stephen Lawrence Memorial.
Stephen would be buried in Jamaica as his family felt that he would not be at peace in the UK.
In 2024 Stephen's body would be exhumed and photos of his grave began circulating in social media.
(26:55):
He was returned to the UK on the 1st of August 2024.
After Sarah Everard's murder the Metropolitan Police announced an independent review was going to be launched into police behaviour.
The findings revealed problems of homophobia, racism and misogyny.
It said that black Londoners were quote over-policed and under-protected.
(27:17):
It took over 10 years for Stephen Lawrence's killers to be charged.
If a white person had been murdered it wouldn't have taken 10 years.
There is still racism within the Metropolitan Police Force as well as other police forces around the UK and other public services.
Racism needs to be completely eradicated from public services as well as from people around the world.
(27:53):
A really horrid thought.
And then also like for them going through the process of having having him be exhumed and then people fucking taking pictures of his grave.
Yeah, yeah.
God, I hate that.
Some people, it's not every person, but some people are just disgusting.
Yeah, it's like fucking living behind your phone sort of thing, taking a photo of everything like that.
(28:17):
Get a grip, go away.
What goes through your head?
Yeah.
It's almost like sensationalising it.
It is, no, absolutely.
Oh wow, look at this.
Really, that's someone who died in a racial attack.
Yeah, take yourself out for a minute and look at what's actually in front of you and realise that there's a lot more weight to what you're looking at.
(28:39):
Yep.
Only two of his attackers, two out of five, were arrested, not arrested, were convicted, charged and sentenced.
So the other three are just...
The other three still haven't been sentenced for killing someone in a racial attack.
And who knows if they ever will be?
(29:00):
I would never want to say never, but I do highly doubt it now.
Yeah.
I mean, look how long it took them to get to.
I mean, I hope to God that they will get caught and imprisoned, but looking at what we've just spoken about and how the system works and how we've spoken about the system before in the last couple of episodes, like, is it likely?
(29:24):
So that's the case of the murder of Stephen Lawrence.
I thought that one was going to be a bit of a longer one because I didn't know I was going to do this one because ten minutes before I was looking through the ones that I've got because we're working our way down now with the ones that I did three months ago.
(29:44):
And then I just quickly read through this and then I don't know where I was going with that.
Oh yeah, I thought this was going to be long because it's quite, like, long but it's like short paragraphs.
This podcast contains graphic content.
(00:02):
Lesson of caution is recommended.
Specifically, today's episode of Choosing the Bear contains themes and discussion of racism and murder.
Hello, welcome to Choosing the Bear, a true crime podcast.
My name is Lois and with me is my co-host slash brother Daniel.
(00:25):
Today's episode is on the murder of Stephen Lawrence.
So, Daniel, happy Thursday.
I mean, happy Thursday.
It is Thursday.
It's a different day.
We normally record on Fridays, but not today.
No, today we're doing a Thursday recording.
I know, we're switching things up.
I don't like it.
The routine has, well, it's really gone and I feel sick.
(00:46):
I mean, we never really did have a routine.
But we were starting one.
The Fridays were becoming a regular thing.
Was it?
The last, yeah, the last three have been Fridays.
Oh, I mean, all my days just morph into one.
That's really sad.
I know.
Nothing different about your life.
I feel like this week, I've just wanted this week to be over.
(01:09):
And I really shouldn't be like wasting my life away, even though the job I'm doing is just that.
But like, I really shouldn't.
But I just, I just want a good night's sleep.
I just want to lie in past six o'clock.
Jesus Christ.
What a way to start off an episode.
I'm just so tired.
(01:31):
Jesus.
I just want a good night's sleep.
But you know, what do we do?
We get up and we carry on and we graft.
We graft.
I'm the opposite.
I'm such an early bird now.
This new job, this routine, say new job, been in it for a month now.
But this routine is just, oh, I love it.
I mean, it makes me really tired at night.
By like half 10, my eyes are watering because I'm that tired.
(01:54):
I think, I think I need to go to the doctors.
Well, the optician's about my eyes because yeah, no, I generally have tears streaming.
Yeah, I don't know why.
It's a bit weird.
Glasses are like, not cheap, but like cheaper than what I thought.
Like I got mine done probably like three months ago when it was only 45 pound for the glasses and the lenses.
And I read all the way down to the bottom line.
(02:16):
My optician was absolutely buzzing.
Absolutely beside themselves.
They couldn't believe their eyes.
No, seriously.
Me and my boyfriend watched, yeah, last episode I was saying how I had so many things to watch and everything's just been put on the back burner because we started One Piece.
(02:45):
Um, like the real life version, not the anime.
And oh my God, it was actually so good.
It's so different to what we would normally watch.
Yeah, no, when you said that you, him, I was about to say his name, you and him were watching One Piece.
I was like, why?
Neither of you seem to like that sort of thing.
No, I don't know.
I mean, he just seen it and was like, let's watch this.
(03:08):
And I was like, oh, yeah, cool.
And now he's like, obsessed.
And he wants to watch all Pirates of the Caribbean.
So once we've got this, we're going to watch Pirates of the Caribbean.
Yeah.
And they're coming out with, um, One Piece Lego and, um, he was looking at merch as well, like t-shirts.
Do you think this is like a current hyper fixation?
(03:30):
Yes.
A few minutes time.
This will be gone.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah.
A few minutes.
I know it's been a bit generous.
Give it a couple of weeks.
A couple of weeks and it'll be off it.
So what have you been watching and enjoying?
I'm, it's really quite boring.
I mean, actually, no, me and my girlfriend, we've been watching Line of Duty, which is quite good.
We just finished season three the other night and, um, what a finale.
(03:53):
Is that on BBC?
It is now, yes.
We're watching that and also watching Inside Number Nine.
That's where we have dinner.
But, um, like me, myself, I'm just doing Star Wars.
I'm still, I've locked myself into like watching every Star Wars film and series in chronological order because I've never done it before.
I'm currently on Andor.
That means nothing to you, but there's people who do know Star Wars, if there are anyone watching or listening.
(04:15):
Um, currently on Andor, everyone loves it.
I don't personally.
I'm a bit, I'm a bit fucking bored.
Is it a film or series?
Series.
I'm on episode seven.
I'm really, really bored.
It's tough soldering on in it when you're watching a shit TV show, but it's got to be done.
I've been there a couple of times.
(04:36):
I don't like it.
So I'm not even going to entertain.
And everyone knows at this point what we're on about.
Season two, I am struggling.
I mean, the past few days I haven't been able to watch Daredevil because I've been watching One Piece, but I'm obsessed with One Piece.
Can't get enough of it.
I'm just not looking forward to going back.
You need to.
(04:57):
I know, but I don't really want to.
No, I was looking into buying the helmet the other day.
What helmet?
The Daredevil helmet.
You can get it from the Disney store in America for $80, but in the UK, that's not possible.
So people are selling it online for 120 quid.
And I thought, Oh, bit steep with 67 pounds postage.
(05:22):
So you best believe I press buy.
Why is that being shipped from the UK?
If it's from the Disney store in the US, why would it be shipped from the UK?
Yeah, but you said people are reselling it for 110.
Yeah, on eBay.
I didn't buy it.
Are you mad?
No, but you said people are reselling on eBay for that much with 67 pound postage.
(05:47):
Yeah, so the people on eBay reselling it for 67 pounds.
I don't know.
I didn't.
Oh God, it's so many numbers.
I don't care.
I didn't ask them.
I looked at it and went, fucking hell, that's insane.
So where...
Oh, right.
So the postage was the price from the Disney store.
I don't know.
I didn't go any further.
I looked at it and went, fuck.
You just said 67 pound postage.
(06:07):
Yeah, but I didn't then go in and be like, so Mum, why is it 67 quid?
What's that about?
I saw it, went, fuck that, and then just assumed there'd be one in the UK at some point.
On the Disney store or on eBay?
eBay.
Okay.
I'm glad we cleared that up.
All right.
I'm hoping for one in the UK, then I might buy one, because it looks sick.
(06:29):
And I think I could shave my beard down and then I could have the daredevil stubble.
It's actually wearable.
No, no, it's for your feet.
What are you thinking?
God's sake.
Well, there's Disney stores in England.
Yeah, but it's not in the England ones.
Oh, right.
I've looked.
(06:49):
Do you not think I have?
So you've got yourself in a bit of a pickle.
Not really, because it's not, you know...
It doesn't really matter.
Wow.
In whose eyes?
I'm going to sit with that.
That's a pretty good question, actually.
I'm going to sit and really stew that one over.
Oh, no.
How will we live?
(07:12):
Anyway.
All right.
Anywho.
Do you recognise the name Stephen Lawrence?
No.
I don't think so.
Again, it might be similar to ones before, or midway through.
I'm like, oh, shit, I do know this one.
But face value, no, I do not.
Okay.
(07:32):
Well, let's begin.
Stephen Lawrence was born on the 13th of September 1974 in Greenwich District Hospital, London.
At the time of his birth, Stephen's father, Neville Lawrence, was a carpenter, and his mother, Doreen, was a special needs teacher.
Stephen was the oldest of their children.
His brother, Stuart, was born in 1976, and his sister, Georgina, was born in 1982.
(07:58):
The family lived in Plumstead, South East London.
Stephen's parents had immigrated to the UK from Jamaica in the 1960s.
Stephen was enrolled at Blackheath Bluecoat Church of England School.
God, that is a long school name, isn't it?
Blackheath Church of England School.
No, Blackheath Bluecoat.
Blackheath Bluecoat Church of England School.
(08:18):
Yeah.
Got it down.
And had aspirations of becoming an architect.
At school, Stephen studied technology, physics and English language.
He excelled in running and was a team member for Cambridge Harriers Athletics Club and was preparing for his A-Levels.
I don't know why I'm stumbling so much on words today.
(08:39):
Just take a second, just chill.
And I hope.
On the 22nd of April 1993, Stephen had spent the day at his school studying for his A-Levels.
One of his teachers, Bob Henderson, remembered Stephen being an enthusiastic student.
Once he'd finished for the day, he went to a few shops in Lewisham and then caught the bus to his uncle's house in Grove Park.
(09:02):
Lawrence then met his friend, Duane Brooks.
They had spent some time together and began to head home at around 10pm.
The first available bus would have gotten them home too late.
Instead, the pair decided to go to another bus stop on Walehall Road.
Stephen and Duane arrived at the bus stop at 10.25pm. Stephen walked down the road to the junction of Dixon Road to see if he could see the bus, while Duane waited at the bus stop.
(09:25):
Approaching, he could see a group of six white youths.
They were initially on the opposite side of the road and were heading towards Duane.
At 10.38pm, Duane shouted up to Stephen to see if he could see the bus.
The group of youths heard Duane and began shouting racial slurs.
Within seconds, the group crossed the road and quote, engulfed Stephen.
(09:47):
He was forced to the ground and was stabbed by one or more of the group members.
At this time, Duane was a short distance away and he turned and called out to Stephen, telling him to run.
His stab wounds were about 5 inches or 13 centimetres on both sides on the front of his body, the right collarbone and his left shoulder.
(10:08):
Both of these stab wounds severed Stephen's auxiliary arteries before penetrating his lung.
Due to his artery being severed, Stephen lost feeling in his right arm and was suffering from breathing difficulties, bleeding severely from the stab wounds.
The group of attackers fled the scene down Dixon Road.
Duane was running towards Shooter's Hill.
(10:28):
Despite his injuries and condition, this actually makes me want to bawl my eyes out.
Despite his injuries and condition, Stephen got up and began running, following Duane.
Stephen was able to run over 100 yards whilst bleeding from his severed arteries.
Dr Shepherd, the pathologist, said it is a testimony to Stephen's physical fitness that he was able to run the distance he did before collapsing.
(10:52):
That's insane.
So he literally had 5 inch or 13 centimetre long stab wounds and he was still moving.
Yeah.
But not just moving, like yeah.
Run, jog, 100 yards.
Duane called an ambulance and an off-duty police officer stopped and covered Stephen with a blanket.
(11:16):
At the scene of the stabbing, there wasn't mass amounts of blood on the pavement as Stephen was wearing 5 layers of clothing.
However, in the place where he collapsed, witnesses recall a substantial amount of blood.
Stephen was placed into the recovery position and was taken to Brook General Hospital.
However, by 11.05pm, Stephen was pronounced dead.
(11:36):
So just stabbed in a completely unprovoked racial attack.
I was going to say that there's no sort of motive there besides the racism obviously.
Yeah.
Just racist.
Scum.
Three people witnessed the attack and gave statements to the police.
All described the attack as being sudden and short and none were able to identify the suspects.
(12:00):
However, the police received anonymous tips from the public to help in their investigation.
Several residents came forward to provide police with names of the suspects.
A note was left on a police car windscreen while another note was left in a telephone box and named a local gang.
Wow.
And you can Google, I did literally just Google it like 5 minutes before we start recording, like see if there was a picture of the note.
(12:28):
There's one, I don't know if it's like official, well the ones I've seen, I don't know if they are official, I haven't like verified them, I've just seen them on Google Images.
But there's one where I can't really read the writing and then there's another one where it's like suspects names and they're like numbered.
Wow.
So like a real community piling together.
(12:49):
And I feel like they, like leaving a note, it's not like you're writing on the note.
I mean they might have but like oh, if you want any more information contact, like leaving a note is quite a somewhat anonymous way to provide information.
Especially just leaving it on a police car windscreen.
I feel like it implies that they're afraid of being known as the one who provided the information.
(13:14):
Like the whole snitches get stitches sort of scenario.
You feel like that's more like in films, you know like a whole community sort of banding together to try and help, you know, rectify someone else's mistakes.
But that's mad though, yeah.
Sort of like leaving notes on cars.
But yeah, I think you're right about like not leaving any details on that purely for fear you know, that someone could have seen it, say they were part of that gang and then they themselves then become a target.
(13:41):
And then how bad is it that like a attack or murder or like racial attack happens and people suspect that they know who it is like?
Yeah.
You should never suspect anyone of doing that.
You should never know to suspect anyone.
Yeah.
Like they've got people in mind already which just says about who they know.
(14:03):
Yeah.
The suspects named in the notes were Gary Dobson, Luke Knight, David Norris and brothers Neil and Jamie Accourt.
The suspects had previously committed other knife attacks and racial attacks in the area.
Four months before the murder of Stephen, Gary and Neil were involved in a racially motivated attack on a black teenager at Kevin London.
(14:24):
Kevin was friends with Stephen Lawrence and had been attacked by the same gang that was at the time suspected of murdering Stephen.
In November 1992, Kevin was outside his hospital with his girlfriend when he was approached by Gary and Neil.
They verbally abused him and attempted to stab him.
Kevin recognised Gary as they had attended the same school.
(14:44):
So it's just absolute scumbags.
Yeah.
Targeting.
Really like, oh god, it really just winds me up like any form of hate as we've said before, but like any racism, homophobia, transphobia, the list goes on.
It's just insane and there is really, I don't understand the reason for it.
(15:07):
And it's horrible in today's world as well how that shit is more and more sort of reinforced as a um acceptable thing to do.
I feel like it's more, yeah, I was just gonna say, yeah.
I swear there was a point a couple years back now where some woman, it was in London I think, some woman got like racially abused on the tube or some shit.
(15:30):
Something like that.
And the guy was like, oh it's popular now, we can do this now.
Because something had happened quite mainstream where someone was racist and from the woodwork, these like racists that were like, well they're doing it in mainstream stuff so why can't we do it?
So like it's a very high mind mentality that like as soon as one goes, the others all follow.
(15:55):
And then just because someone does it, why does it make it seem acceptable for you to do it?
Obviously I know it's the response that they get but in no society should we accept any form of hate for someone just living.
Yeah, it's just fucking backwards.
Apart from this incident, Neil had more run-ins with the police in the past.
(16:15):
In 1994, a covert police officer recorded him going on a racist rant.
This has like a racial slur but obviously, I'm not going to say it.
Neil was captured saying, quote, I think every should be chopped up and left with stumps.
So...
Oh man, psychotic.
(16:36):
Weeks before Stephen's attack, Neil was implicated in the stabbing of teenager Stacey Benefield.
In 2001, Neil was convicted for possessing an offensive weapon, a baton, which he claimed would only be used for personal protection.
In 2002, Neil and Gary were jailed for shouting racial slurs at an off-duty police officer as they drove away from him.
(16:58):
Another attack occurred in May 1992 when Jamie was accused of stabbing Darren Witham and Darren Giles in 1994.
At this time, locals claimed that Jamie had a fascination with knives.
Jamie was permanently excluded from school due to a racial attack.
He confronted a black pupil at the top of the flight of stairs and kicked Shaun down, knocking him unconscious.
(17:20):
Christ, man.
What were you doing?
In school.
Where were you learning this one, please?
Yeah, well, I was sort of trying to think of like, oh maybe it's this, but no, where have you learned that from?
Who has instilled that in you?
I mean, I'm not specifically like going to the parents, but, because obviously, anyone can be influenced by anyone.
(17:46):
Yeah, but it's still, it's very alarming that you're in your school years and have that much hatred for someone.
Three days after Stephen's murder, the prime suspect had been identified but were not arrested until two weeks later.
The police didn't inspect the suspect's houses for four days.
Due to the lack of urgency shown by the police, the Lawrence family felt that not enough was done to arrest and convict Stephen's killers.
(18:12):
Detective Superintendent Brian Whedon began leading the murder investigation from the third day and had also been leading the murder squad for 14 months.
In a later inquiry into how the police handled Stephen's case, he explained that part of the reason for the delay in arrests was that he wasn't aware someone could be arrested for reasonable suspicion.
(18:32):
I beg your pardon?
What do you mean?
I mean, I understand how it's suspicion, but also you have had, like, numerous different anonymous somewhat tips of people saying, check these people out.
Like, it's not an unwarranted suspicion.
And you're saying you can't, like...
(18:52):
So how he got to be a detective superintendent, I'm not really sure.
However, on May 7th, 1993, Gary Dobson, Neil and Jamie O'Court were arrested.
David Norris turned himself in to police three days later.
On the 3rd of June, Luke Knight was arrested.
Neil and Luke Knight were charged with the murder on the 13th of May and 23rd of June.
(19:16):
However, on the 29th of July, their charges were dropped as the Crown Prosecution Service claimed there was insufficient evidence.
On April 16th, 1994, the CPS said that they didn't have enough evidence to charge the other suspects with murder.
One of the main issues was regarding Dwayne picking Neil O'Court out of the police line-up.
This was seen as not being strong enough evidence to be presented in court.
(19:40):
Which, I mean...
I somewhat get it, because you could just pick anyone from a line-up, but then when you...
But then, you're picking someone out of a line-up.
Stephen's mum and dad were rightfully so outraged.
They launched their own private prosecution in September 1994.
(20:02):
This is when a prosecution is started by someone who is not acting on behalf of the police or other prosecuting authority.
The average cost is around £8,500.
And I don't know, I can't remember, I think that might be currently, like now, not in 1990.
Right, adjusted for inflation.
For, yeah.
But still, nearly £10,000.
(20:23):
There would have still been a lot of money back then, yeah, but that just shows, I mean, at that point then, when you're trying to get justice and things, like money isn't really an object.
Oh no.
Like, you'll find a way to get it.
And I couldn't, I can't, I mean, this is where I and we are white privileged, because I could never imagine like, having anything like this happen full stop, but then having like an investigation be so failed and have to do things on your own.
(20:55):
Yeah.
Literally, the justice system failed me, so I'm literally having to fund this and get justice for my family and myself.
Yeah.
Awful.
An inquest was held surrounding the circumstances of Stephen's murder in February 1997.
Even though the five suspects refused to answer any questions, the jury's deliberation decided that Stephen was killed in a, quote, completely unprovoked racist attack by five youths.
(21:24):
I mean, hit the nail on the head.
Yeah, like, what else could it have been?
Just from the bare description alone, that's exactly what it was.
In 2005, a law was changed.
The common law rule that once an accused person had been acquitted couldn't be tried for a second time for the same crime.
Meaning if new evidence was found, the suspects that were found not guilty in the first trial would be able to be brought to trial again.
(21:49):
In June 2006, Stephen's case and evidence was re-examined.
It was found that a microscopic amount of Stephen's blood was found on Gary Dobson's jacket.
As the stain was microscopic, why can I not say that word?
Microscopic?
It was concluded that the blood stain must have been transferred at the crime scene as it was so small and dried instantly.
(22:12):
Fibers and hairs belonging to Stephen were also found on Gary and Gary and God, there's so many names floating around, I'm getting more jumbled up.
Was also found on Gary and David Norris' clothes.
On the 8th of September 2010, Gary Dobson and David Norris were arrested and charged with murder.
(22:32):
However, reporting restrictions were placed onto media outlets from informing the public of their arrest.
A trial was set for the 14th of November 2011.
The new forensic evidence would be presented.
On January 3rd 2012, the jury deliberated for 8 hours and found Gary and David guilty of Stephen Lawrence's murder.
(22:54):
Gary was sentenced to a minimum of 15 years and 2 months and 14 years and 3 months for David.
The judge stated that he had considered their ages at the time of the crime and acknowledged that their sentencing was lower than some might expect.
As an adult being charged with this crime, the maximum sentence could have been 30 years.
(23:16):
So, 2011 was when they were found guilty?
He was found guilty for murdering Stephen in 2012 and he was murdered in 1993.
Christ.
And I'm not good at quick math but that is...
(23:36):
19 years, I think.
That's just like an absolute piss take and just absolutely insane.
Just under 2 decades.
And heart-wrenching.
Because that family was in fighting for justice for that long.
Just under 2 decades.
And it's like, well if it was to be a white person or like...
(24:00):
Yeah, if it was to be a white person...
Oh my God, yes.
Within 6 months this case would be like evidence found, charged.
Backwards, it's probably archaic.
And this isn't even like that long ago.
No, no it's not.
On the 30th of January 2012 Gary and David were appealing their sentences, however it failed on the first round.
(24:21):
I know I've said this in like the last couple of episodes but it really fucks me off when people appeal their sentences or like try and apply for parole early before they're eligible.
Because it just shows that like they don't think they're doing anything wrong.
They're not bothered.
There's a complete lack of disregard.
They just want to get out.
(24:43):
I'm bored of this now.
I want to go so I'm going to give it a shot.
When it's your actions that got you in there in the first place.
They don't give a fuck do they?
They don't care.
Many inquiries and investigations were launched with a number of findings found.
One was that the Met Police was institutionally racist, meaning racism is deemed normal and acceptable behaviour within organisations.
(25:04):
There were 70 recommendations for the force to reform.
Christ.
Oh god like this is as well where we're also privileged in the fact that we like just like we learn about this.
We don't learn about it through experience in it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
We're reading up on these things.
It's not knowledge to us because we know it's happened to someone that whatever.
(25:28):
And like when we've encountered police it's not like I've never felt like intimidated or like anything like that or somewhat threatened or anything.
Yeah.
Like that you're being watched.
Yeah.
Or like suspected of doing something.
It's actually an insane insanely different experience.
(25:48):
Something that should be welcomed and hopeful like I'm here now the police are here.
I should be protected.
I should be safe now.
Yeah.
But then it can be viewed for like as another threat.
You've called them to protect you from a threat and yet another potential one has just rocked up.
Oh god.
(26:10):
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh god.
Yeah that's god.
I mean I know but Jesus just the way you described that was really chilling.
In March 2006 the Metropolitan Police announced it was paying £100,000 to Dwayne Brooks as compensation for how the police handled his involvement in the case.
(26:33):
On the 22nd of April 2018 the 25th anniversary of his murder the Prime Minister Theresa May announced an annual day of remembrance for Stephen Lawrence Memorial.
Stephen would be buried in Jamaica as his family felt that he would not be at peace in the UK.
In 2024 Stephen's body would be exhumed and photos of his grave began circulating in social media.
(26:55):
He was returned to the UK on the 1st of August 2024.
After Sarah Everard's murder the Metropolitan Police announced an independent review was going to be launched into police behaviour.
The findings revealed problems of homophobia, racism and misogyny.
It said that black Londoners were quote over-policed and under-protected.
(27:17):
It took over 10 years for Stephen Lawrence's killers to be charged.
If a white person had been murdered it wouldn't have taken 10 years.
There is still racism within the Metropolitan Police Force as well as other police forces around the UK and other public services.
Racism needs to be completely eradicated from public services as well as from people around the world.
(27:53):
A really horrid thought.
And then also like for them going through the process of having having him be exhumed and then people fucking taking pictures of his grave.
Yeah, yeah.
God, I hate that.
Some people, it's not every person, but some people are just disgusting.
Yeah, it's like fucking living behind your phone sort of thing, taking a photo of everything like that.
(28:17):
Get a grip, go away.
What goes through your head?
Yeah.
It's almost like sensationalising it.
It is, no, absolutely.
Oh wow, look at this.
Really, that's someone who died in a racial attack.
Yeah, take yourself out for a minute and look at what's actually in front of you and realise that there's a lot more weight to what you're looking at.
(28:39):
Yep.
Only two of his attackers, two out of five, were arrested, not arrested, were convicted, charged and sentenced.
So the other three are just...
The other three still haven't been sentenced for killing someone in a racial attack.
And who knows if they ever will be?
(29:00):
I would never want to say never, but I do highly doubt it now.
Yeah.
I mean, look how long it took them to get to.
I mean, I hope to God that they will get caught and imprisoned, but looking at what we've just spoken about and how the system works and how we've spoken about the system before in the last couple of episodes, like, is it likely?
(29:24):
So that's the case of the murder of Stephen Lawrence.
I thought that one was going to be a bit of a longer one because I didn't know I was going to do this one because ten minutes before I was looking through the ones that I've got because we're working our way down now with the ones that I did three months ago.
(29:44):
And then I just quickly read through this and then I don't know where I was going with that.
Oh yeah, I thought this was going to be long because it's quite, like, long but it's like short paragraphs.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Good Hang with Amy Poehler
Come hang with Amy Poehler. Each week on her podcast, she'll welcome celebrities and fun people to her studio. They'll share stories about their careers, mutual friends, shared enthusiasms, and most importantly, what's been making them laugh. This podcast is not about trying to make you better or giving advice. Amy just wants to have a good time.