The supreme court opinion on affirmative action over a year ago brought challenges to pipelines and pathways programs. During that time additional legislation has also closed offices of DEI. Outgoing NMA President Dr. Yolanda Lawson discusses the implications of a changed environment during a discussion at the NMA 2024 Convention and Scientific Assembly with Dr. Randall Morgan, President and CEO of the Montague Cobb Institute.
Together they highlight the urgent need to place greater emphasis on mentorship, linking this to outcomes, and to refining the value proposition for building a diverse workforce providing racially concordant care. During the discussion Dr. Lawson calls for a major pivot to mentorship, and highlights the need for more NMA members to become mentors. Dr. Lawson describes her efforts as NMA President to establish a formal mentorship network, and to initiate local mentorship collaborations between NMA State and local societies and educational institutions.
Dr. Yolanda Lawson, MD, FACOG, is a Doctor of Medicine and a Fellow of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists. She was previously the founder and leader of MadeWell Obstetrics and Gynecology in Dallas, Texas, and an Associate Attending Physician at Baylor University Medical Center. Dr. Lawson is deeply committed to the issue of health disparities of Black women and common issues faced by Black physicians. She addresses maternal health, cardiovascular issues, and HIV/AIDS. Her focus also includes the study of how to use digital innovation to close the gap in healthcare disparities faced by Black people, and the impact of health care in the workforce of Black physicians, including racism and burnout.
In addition to her Presidency of NMA in the past 12 months, Dr. Lawson recently became Executive Medical Director of Maternal Infant Health at the Health Care Service Corporation, an organization that is dedicated to improving access to care and targeting social and economic factors that influence health.
Excerpts
“Affirmative action was in place and we still were not able to achieve our goals of racially concordant care and having enough Black physicians to take care of the population in this country, even with affirmative action.”
“One of the things we have been talking about this past year is creating a formalized national mentoring network.”
“Many students have an expectation that mentors need to be reaching out to them. You need to assert yourself as a mentee - that is a very important nuance for all individuals to understand.”
“With legislators, when you talk about workforce, that engages others…the hospital lobby, industry, pharmaceuticals, the pharmacist, it engages nursing, it engages the heart of the engine. Everyone is interested in the outcomes piece because there is a cost to that.”
“What is the value proposition for me or for them to make investments to reduce these disparities? That piece has to be refined, that is the whole point.”
Timeline
0:00 Excerpts
2:00 Introductions
4:00 Talking points for the NMA/Cobb Annual Symposium: “Then and Now, Navigating Best in Class Mentoring Innovation.
6:00 Importance of mentorship at all stages of career development. National mentorship network. How to select, train and support mentors.
8:30 Expanding the public health workforce and integration with HBCUs. Inviting public health students interested in health disparities to get involved with NMA. Structured opportunities for mentorship.
10:00 Insights from Cobb Scholars program: many scholars but a shortage of mentors. Call for more NMA members to become mentors. Opportunity to work with the sections of NMA and invite them to put forward mentors to create a network of mentors.
12:00 Importance of being assert
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
So, with legislators, what resonates?
I don't personally feel many times
the disparities in the health equity conversation resonates with them.
Workforce definitely resonates with them. When you talk about workforce, that engages others.
(00:23):
That engages the hospital lobby. It engages industry, pharmaceutical, the pharmacist.
It engages nursing.
It engages, there's part of the engine.
So workforce tends to land well. And if I get my foot in the door on workforce,
I then embellish and discuss the diverse workforce.
(00:46):
Force because when you talk about healthcare outcomes, whether you're talking
about health insurance companies, hospitals, everyone, government,
everyone's interested in the outcomes piece because there's a cost to that.
What is the value proposition for me or them to make policies or investments
(01:07):
to reduce these disparities?
That piece has to be refined.
That's the whole point. That's the whole point.
Whether you're talking about health equity, health disparities,
workforce, you've got to be able to demonstrate what is the value proposition
for them, what is the return on investment, and speak broadly enough.
(01:32):
One of the things we've been working over this past year is creating a formalized
national mentoring network.
And so many times as I talk to students, is they have an expectation that the
person should be reaching out to me. The person should be the ones giving.
And so I tend to think that you need to assert yourself as a mentee.
(01:55):
And I think that's a very important nuance for folks, all individuals, to understand.
Affirmative action was in place, and we still were not able to achieve our goals
of racially concordant care and having enough Black physicians,
(02:15):
right, to take care of the population in this country, even with affirmative action.
Music.
Welcome to another episode of Cobb and Company, the podcast of the W.
Montague Cobb Institute.
(02:37):
I am Dr. Randall Morgan. I'm president and CEO of the Cobb Institute.
Over the coming months, we will be welcoming numerous thought leaders in the
areas of health equity and increasing diversity in the healthcare workforce.
Today, it's my great pleasure to welcome Dr. Yolanda Lawson to the podcast.
(02:57):
Dr. Yolanda Lawson serves as the president of the National Medical Association.
Thank you for having me. We have much to talk about, but first I'm going to
share a little background for our listeners.
Dr. Lawson is a doctor of medicine and a fellow of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.
(03:17):
She was installed as the 124th president of the the National Medical Association
in 2023 at the annual convention and scientific assembly in New Orleans, Louisiana.
That conference was entitled Accelerating the March Toward Health Equity.
She was previously the founder and leader of Madewell Obstetrics and Gynecology
(03:42):
in Dallas and an associate attending physician at Baylor University Medical
Center, where she still serves. Dr.
Lawson is deeply committed to the issue of health disparities of black women
and common issues faced by black physicians.
She addresses maternal health, cardiovascular issues, and HIV AIDS.
(04:05):
Her focus also includes the study of how to use digital innovation to close
the gap in healthcare disparities faced by black people and the impact of healthcare
in the workforce force of Black physicians,
including racism and burnout.
In addition to her presidency of the National Medical Association during the past 12 months, Dr.
(04:30):
Lawson recently became Executive Medical Director of Maternal Infant Health
at the Healthcare Service Corporation,
an organization that is dedicated to improving access to care and targeting
social and economic factors that and influence health.
So tomorrow you will present the closing remarks at the National Medical Association's
(04:54):
annual Montague Cobb Symposium.
Our theme this year is Then and Now, Navigating Best-in-Class Mentoring Innovation.
Could you share with us a flavor of your talking points for the symposium?
Certainly. Well, first of all, I'm really looking forward to the symposium.
(05:15):
You know that, again, as you stated, one of my passions is around the health care workforce.
But I think about that workforce from its infancy through the maturation.
And so the student piece, the resident education piece, and then there's a component
of preserving the current workforce.
And so then and now, in navigating best-in-class mentoring innovation,
(05:37):
the first thing when we talk about mentoring, one of the things we've been working
over this past year is creating a formalized national mentoring network.
I think it's needed. There are a lot of, I would say, a lot of requests from
students and residents.
But my thought around this, if you look at the workforce and you look at how
(05:59):
many physicians now are departing the workforce and not maintaining a clinical
practice or maintaining a clinical core,
I think we need to think about also mentorship as a lifelong component.
We need to develop and structure mentoring programs for students.
There needs to be some that are tailored more to the resident and early careerist.
(06:24):
But I also find myself, and this is personal, at mid-career needing mentorship.
And so I think that that's a demonstration project because it's common that
folks could need mentorship at any point in place.
And then the second point I would make, looking at currently the dissolution of so many DEI offices,
(06:49):
many times I know for me, those going to a medical school where there was that
type of office or an office of minority affairs,
that was a place where I could seek advice and guidance and mentorship too.
So I think us thinking about mentorship more discreetly focused and specific
(07:10):
is more important than ever, considering some of the policies are instituted
around certain states in this country.
So with regard to lifelong mentoring, how do we determine who the mentors will be?
And how do we even encourage or train those mentors?
(07:31):
Absolutely. So as we've been having meetings around this national formalized
mentorship network, the thought is that it should be retired physicians that are the mentors.
I push back on that a little bit. I actually just got off the elevator coming to meet you.
There was a gentleman who introduced himself to me as semi-retired,
(07:54):
a semi-retired dermatologist.
And I was like, oh, you're the type of person we need to mentor.
He's been a leader within NMA.
He's been a section chair before.
And so there is leadership that we know we need to groom in our leadership within the NMA.
There is leadership within our hospital institutions. There's leadership opportunities
(08:15):
for us in our communities.
As physicians and definitely as Black physicians.
And so when you talk about mentorship training, I think that one of the things
I worked on this year was expanding the public health care workforce.
We know after the pandemic, we had so many of our public health colleagues that
(08:38):
left the public health workforce.
So we've actually submitted a proposal around the development of the public
health workforce, specifically thinking about the integration with the HBCUs.
Many of them from the undergraduate level just don't have exposure.
(09:00):
So we're thinking about exposure opportunities. The second piece is going into
these public health schools and offering that the NMA become a playground for
those public health students who are interested in health disparities,
right, teaming them, that's going to be another structured, formalized way to
(09:21):
help also allowing them because they have to get those internship and those service hours.
So for me, mentorship can look a lot of ways.
It may not be the traditional way, but for me, it's also about exposure and
offering opportunities, structured opportunities, whether that's pathway programs
at medical schools for students, those opportunities for residents.
(09:46):
That is a form of mentorship, in my opinion. And I just want to go beyond the
traditional, get on a call, get on a Zoom call, and let's have some counseling
and conversations. I think it could be actionable.
And from the work that we've done with the Cobb Institute and the Cobb Scholars
Program, the pre-scholars program, it's easier to to sign up 10, 15, 20 scholars,
(10:11):
than it is to sign up three mentors.
And yet the scholars programs will only be successful if we have mentors.
That's true. And so I think inherent
in the goal of having more mentors is a way that NMA members have to be enlisted
(10:34):
to be a mentor in something where it's semi-voluntary going forth.
Because there's no particular time that you are a mentor.
It's just the way life happens. But if we're going to have programs like this
that the NMA supports, sponsors, organizes, we need a lot of people committed to be mentors.
(11:02):
And not just maybe, possibly, but definitely in there for a period of time because
they understand the goals that you have stated.
You're correct. They need to be all in. Yeah.
They need to be all in, and it's a commitment, and it's the consistency because
(11:22):
that's what definitely our medical students and our young residents and young physicians need.
And so I agree with you wholeheartedly. As I think about the Student National
Medical Association, we need to formalize that mentorship structure.
So I think there are places we can start.
And I think about all the specialties. We have 26 medical specialties.
(11:45):
Even if we just started with those sections, putting forth at least two to three
individuals, we have a network right there that we can create and begin to work
on that infrastructure.
And I think you said an important thing, thinking about the structure and the
education and the development of to be a mentor, right?
(12:06):
I don't claim to have gone through that, but I do know that my entire career,
I've identified mentors.
I'll tell you a quick story. I'm in the hospital. I'm in the doctor's lounge.
We're rounding, you know, where the doctors do their notes.
And I don't know, somehow I mentioned I needed to go. I need to have a call with my mentor.
(12:26):
One of my fellow colleagues, an anesthesiologist, he's like, you have a mentor?
You know, I guess he's saying at this point in my life. And I was like,
yeah, I have a mentor. He says, do they know that they're your mentor?
And I said, hmm, that's a good question. I have had mentors who don't even know
that I've identified them as that.
I call them regularly. So one of the things I talk to students about is being assertive.
(12:53):
Typically, the people we identify as mentors are typically highly functioning.
Titled, whatever you want to say. They're busy.
And so many times as I talk to students, they have an expectation that the person
should be reaching out to me.
The person should be the ones giving. And so I tend to think that you need to
(13:13):
assert yourself as a mentee. And I think that's a very important nuance for
folks, all individuals, to understand.
I agree. And so I think that, again,
with the experience that we've had with the Cobb Institute in terms of trying
to develop a program from scratch that has fairly high-level mentoring entering
(13:36):
requirements without the appropriate resources.
I think that taking advantage of the SNMA,
where you have these young students that are in the same location year after
year after year, that's a constant.
(13:57):
The other constant is that we have local societies in the National Medical Association
year after year after year.
And so marrying those two does several things.
You have an ongoing mentoring program, but you also have engagement of physicians on a local level.
So they don't have to come to New York if they can, you know,
(14:19):
have to go to Hawaii or wherever the national meeting is, but they can have
a profound influence on these young people by just being there.
That's the title, or rather the comment that Dr.
Bright made about mentoring. And a lot of times it's just about being there
and being the person that's there to be able to answer the question.
(14:44):
So I would encourage you to continue that and hold members of the NMA accountable.
And the SNMA gives us an excellent structure to make that happen.
What work have you seen that shows that maybe there may be more public health
(15:09):
schools or education programs available,
perhaps in response to COVID and some of the other challenges that we've had?
Are you aware of any efforts to to expand the public health curriculum or to
try to be more inclusive.
New students? There are a few, and I know the CDC has a focus on this,
(15:35):
so they definitely recognize the reduction in the public health care workforce.
And so that's why over this last year, they put out several funding requests
just on that specific piece,
and we actually structured a particular program and proposal and submitted that
to many institutions I saw did that.
(15:57):
ACOG, many of your specialty organizations, all of them were there thinking
about perhaps their only specific specialty and how the public health workforce
and epidemiology and all of this funnels into them.
I've seen it from the pharmaceutical industry also.
For instance, there is a shortage of HIV providers. And so we know Dr. Dawn Smith.
(16:22):
I looked at Gilead has a program with her, a fellows program to train and develop
those who may be interested in practicing HIV medicine and populations with HIV.
So there are several entities that are looking at that piece specifically,
especially in those areas where we definitely see some shortages.
(16:44):
I know the Elton John Foundation is doing some work.
Much of their work, I've been working with them some, is thinking about access
to care and how do we create those pieces and those portals.
So I think there are foundational pieces.
I think there's pharma I've seen working on it. And then I've also seen agency.
With regard to potential students in public health, as we look at this pipeline
(17:08):
and pathway program and the dilemma of getting young people admitted to medical schools,
are there opportunities for us to promote more public health education as well?
And, you know, MPHs, DBHs, that career path? I absolutely think so.
So I think there are a few things that you and I likely know.
(17:31):
Sometimes students may not get into medical school. They may pursue a MPH or
something in the interim as they begin to reapply.
Again, the proposal I have forth about putting together a internship program
at the NMA for these public health students, I think is important.
So thinking about healthcare careers broadly, one of the things I had a conversation
(17:58):
with a historically Black college undergraduate.
One of the things, and some of those institutions may not have strong science
programs, may not have a particular specific pre-med program,
also thinking about how do we.
Go into those institutions, provide a structured, you know, for me,
(18:22):
I've thought about a structured curriculum about exposure to the careers,
because I think everyone may not want to be a physician,
but I do think personally, I feel we also have a role in strengthening the healthcare
workforce, because we as physicians still need,
(18:42):
right, a cadre of other healthcare workers to take care of the patient populations that we do.
And then the other thing, I think, when you just outline the structure of the
NMA, you think about Cobb, you talked about SNMA, SNMA chapters are all at institutions.
(19:04):
And so one of the things we did in my local society is partnered with the institution.
The institution, and I'm saying this because I think this could happen with the Cobb scholars,
The institution came to us thinking about how are we going to ensure there is
a diverse workforce and we have diverse mentors in the community.
(19:29):
We know we don't have enough at our institution.
So we need you all, the NMA Society here locally, to provide a resource for
mentorship and community presence.
And through making that with the institution, we now have a formalized twice-year mentoring branch.
We bring in all of the specialties. We have signs so students can team up with
(19:52):
members, physician members in the community who may be in a specialty that they desire to go into.
So I think it's about, so one of the things that's really driven me this year
is around collaboration.
And I collaborate with everyone and I maximize and optimize every every relationship
to collaborate on to move forth the agenda.
(20:13):
Thank you. I think those are extremely important points.
And the National Medical Association is really in an excellent position to lead collaboration.
And I think many times we don't do that because we're waiting on someone else to do it.
And we just underestimate the influence that we can have. So,
(20:37):
there are times like this that we are challenged to come up with different solutions.
So, we've talked a little about this, but still I think because of the topic of the.
Been a year that's passed since the Supreme Court decision or the Supreme Court
opinion, as many of us would rather say, in June of 2023 on affirmative action.
(21:01):
So as that's occurred a lot of the time has been, as you've been the president
of the National Medical Association,
have you seen any type of consensus emerge as to more effective ways that organizations
or educational institutions can increase the numbers of underrepresented populations
(21:23):
entering the health care workforce.
I mean, we've talked about public health and some of the other areas of health care.
What other types of strategies do you think we could implement?
And there may be strategies that are being implemented in your home state of
Texas, which, as we know, is one
(21:45):
of those states in which we have always historically had those challenges.
Yes, and SB 17 passed in Texas as of January, all DEI offices were to dissolve.
There have been multiple reports on, you know, most of the staff,
faculty that were parts of those departments have been dissolved and lost jobs and employment there.
(22:12):
There is a framework, you know, I'm hearing as I travel around the country,
some people now are developing offices of belonging, inclusive offices.
All of the presidents of the marginalized or minoritized medical associations,
we came together at the AMA meeting this year and talked about some of the challenges
(22:35):
that these policies provide to us.
And so I think that as we think about moving forward,
And the strategies that we move forward, I think, number one,
we don't need to stop advocating, right?
(22:55):
So I often say this, affirmative action was in place, and we still were not
able to achieve our goals of racially concordant care and having enough Black physicians,
right, to take care of the population in this country, even with affirmative action.
I testified before the Senate a few months ago, and much of that was around
(23:19):
the Black physician workforce and the shortages and what could we do around that.
So as far as a consensus statement, I've tried to collaborate on a broader level
with other health care organizations and other professional organizations.
The Black lawyers have the same concerns.
(23:41):
Black business, same concern. Blacks in finance, same concerns.
Black accountants, same concerns.
Black nurses, same concerns. And so I have worked this entire year for over
30 organizations that we've all come together,
making sure that we create an advocacy block of individuals to help inform policies
(24:08):
to navigate what has occurred last year.
And then the second piece to this, as I discussed in my Senate hearing,
is the piece around medical education debt.
That is another component for me.
I think that we can gain leverage because I think everyone's concerned about
(24:30):
that and how that is a barrier for folks wanting to pursue a career.
With the testimonies that you had with the Senate and other organizations where
you've spoken on behalf of.
The minority medical students or practitioners.
(24:52):
Thinking about response, what resonates to people that may be neutral,
anti, uninformed, or not?
What is it that seems to resonate?
So with legislators, what resonates? I don't personally feel many times the
(25:14):
disparities in the health equity conversation resonates with them.
Workforce definitely resonates with them. There is an economic piece to the workforce,
and there is an economic advantage to a diverse workforce in providing them
data and information around that.
(25:35):
Because when you talk about workforce, force.
That engages others. That engages the hospital lobby.
It engages industry, pharmaceutical, the pharmacist.
It engages nursing.
It engages, there's part of the engine.
So workforce tends to land well.
(25:55):
And if I get my foot in the door on workforce, I then embellish and discuss
the a diverse workforce because when you talk about healthcare outcomes.
Whether you're talking about health insurance companies, hospitals,
everyone, government, everyone's interested in the outcomes piece because there's a cost to that.
(26:17):
And so we know what health disparities and the existence of health disparities
lends to the economy and the GDP.
And so there's a translation I often say whether you're talking about health
equity, health disparities,
workforce, you've got to be able to demonstrate what is the value proposition
(26:39):
for them, what is the return on investment, and speak broadly enough.
Exactly. I've always felt that's the case, that when you're talking about health disparities,
we'll never really have people appreciate what we're talking about until we
are able to talk about the business case for the solution.
(27:03):
Whether it's health disparities or health inequities or whether it's a demographic
issue, it's always about the money.
I think it's important for us to understand where it resonates because that
means we have to do a better job developing our pitch.
We do. When we're, you know, and that's something that your successor, Dr.
(27:28):
Cain, needs to be, she's pretty aware of testimony.
But still, I think the key points as the president of the National Medical Association
that none of us have ever made before in our own little world.
But now you're representing everybody. And so these are some key points.
(27:48):
But the money is always seemingly something that draws the attention.
And so it seems that we have to be really vigilant about finding ways to kind
of get that word in there.
The value, the return on investment. What is the value proposition for me or
(28:09):
them to make policies or investments to reduce these disparities?
That piece has to be refined. Right.
That's the whole point. That's the whole point. And so hopefully we'll become
better at creating that message.
But I think we probably, as an association, need a little work in the whole
(28:35):
area of PR to craft messages.
Yeah. And the message should be the same.
Message should be the same. Message should be consistent.
Message should be, and I find a way, no matter where I am.
I was in Germany last week. I presented on the national stage,
and it was around U.S. Black women, the experience around long-acting peps.
(29:00):
So while there are disparities in HIV broadly in this country from race,
there's also disparities in gender, and then there's disparities in drug access, right?
But again, what's the value proposition when you can reduce disease state?
We here at the White House said they want to end the epidemic.
So then how do we close those gaps? So our final question really has to do with the Cobb Institute.
(29:25):
And as you know, it's now 20 years since its launch.
We're celebrating this by doing this podcast to honor Dr.
Cobb's legacy and also his passion for anthropology. So the question is,
do you have any thoughts about Dr.
Cobb's approach with regard to anthropology or with regard to his view on racism
(29:51):
and equity that may have inspired your thinking? Absolutely.
So this past week, I was invited by the White House to attend the White House
commemoration on the 60th anniversary of the passage of the Civil Rights Act.
It was at the LBJ Library.
LBJ's family was there. It was a very moving ceremony. And that day I actually woke up.
(30:15):
I started reading some of Dr.
Cobb's writings from the JNMA about I wanted to get a sense going there.
What were members? What was the journal?
What were they writing about in the midst of knowing the Civil Rights Act was?
Was going to be signed. And boy, all I can tell you is I could tell he was busy. I read his article.
(30:43):
He seemed so busy and just, you could tell his neurons were firing, right?
Thinking about all of the implications, what it was going to mean for healthcare
and for the future of the Black community and the Black person and all the,
you know, you think before the Civil Rights Act was passed, the substandard care,
(31:04):
the segregated hospitals, the lack of resources.
So that is what I did that day, thinking about Dr.
Cobb. Most recently, you heard me talk about the organizations and the collaboration.
Actually, the Black medical anthropologists were one of the groups that reached
out and locked and joined in thinking about what this movement and policies.
(31:28):
And, And, you know, we think about, for me, when I started this work, Dr.
Morgan, I was thinking about formalizing and creating the Black health care
agenda, forming it interprofessionally with not only Black doctors,
but the others who are part of this.
So it's a well-informed, because here we are talking about equity.
(31:51):
We have to offer equitable opportunities, too, right?
We have to be that, who we say and what we say we want. And so when I think about Dr.
Cobb, I knew that, and I had a sense from what I've known in my readings about
him, you know, he led with that.
He led with this around equity, it's around justice, it's around the civil rights.
(32:15):
And I think that we have to figure out
a way in these contemporary and modern times when we have families and students
who may not understand these historical pieces and how they relate and are still
relatable today. It is very lost.
(32:36):
Absolutely. And that's certainly something that I have experienced because I
typically pester Howard medical students by asking them, tell me about Dr.
Codd. Tell me about Montague Codd. Yeah. Crickets.
Don't know. Yeah. And even we had a symposium at Howard last January,
(33:01):
and I picked off a few. the way that he used to pick people off in anatomy.
But so he's a historian.
That basically is what he was.
And his journals and everything in NMA were always about history and the importance of history.
So you really hit the point. And that time, I was getting ready to enter medical
(33:28):
school, or I was, yes, and be in his class.
So I was 64. So I was in his class in 65.
And, of course, we were dealing with Medicare, Medicaid. But we didn't know
that he was president of NMA.
Oh, yeah. As a student. As a student. I hear you. We were totally into the anatomy later.
(33:48):
He's our instructor. He was our instructor. And we're just trying to make it.
And it's been only through my research, as in my position, that I learned how
many balls he was juggling at the same time.
But he always used the NMA and the JNMA as his platform. Yeah.
(34:11):
And so. And I literally that day read.
He was just writing because it was about to happen.
Right. And so it really, I mean, that's so brilliant of you to even think of that. I mean, really.
And it was so moving because President Biden said, and I didn't know this,
(34:33):
but he told a lot of stories that day.
But President Biden said, actually, I think he may have been in law school or
about to enter law school when it was passed.
He said, actually, the Civil Rights Act, the passage of that is what inspired
him to even go into politics.
Because he was like, I had a job, a nice fancy job at a nice fancy law firm. Yeah. Right.
(34:58):
In Delaware, but he was like, it was the passage of that, that's what inspired him to enter politics.
And you know, he grew up with Richard Allen Williams.
They were very close friends in Delaware, from Wilmington.
A past president. Williamson was supposed to speak to tomorrow.
(35:20):
But it's, I mean, I'm telling you, it's a very small world. Small world, yeah.
We met with Congresswoman Lisa Blunt Rochester yesterday, Delaware,
running for Senate. We met with her yesterday.
So this is something we have to share with our members, with NMA.
And so he was obviously prolific, analytic.
(35:43):
He was persistent because if he had a cause, he was going to be on that cause
until. And so the M.O.D.E.F.
Movement with the hospital integration was one that was extremely important to him.
And it existed until, obviously, Medicare came about and made it illegal to segregate hospitals.
(36:08):
So just think about how he was involved in that. And the structuring.
Right. Because it was brilliant. Yeah.
It was brilliant. it. And there we were in the anatomy lab at 2 a.m.
And he comes in playing the violin or lecturing on Greek mythology or something.
So I think we had a great conversation and I look forward to working with you in the future.
(36:35):
And as we keep trying to solve these problems that sometimes seem to be insolvable,
but I know that we can make it happen.
So after you are able to complete this successful convention and year and take
a breath, then we'll look for you for the next thing to keep you busy.
(36:56):
Yeah, I think so. But we appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Music.
So, with legislators, what resonates?
I don't personally feel many times
the disparities in the health equity conversation resonates with them.
Workforce definitely resonates with them. When you talk about workforce, that engages others.
(00:23):
That engages the hospital lobby. It engages industry, pharmaceutical, the pharmacist.
It engages nursing.
It engages, there's part of the engine.
So workforce tends to land well. And if I get my foot in the door on workforce,
I then embellish and discuss the diverse workforce.
(00:46):
Force because when you talk about healthcare outcomes, whether you're talking
about health insurance companies, hospitals, everyone, government,
everyone's interested in the outcomes piece because there's a cost to that.
What is the value proposition for me or them to make policies or investments
(01:07):
to reduce these disparities?
That piece has to be refined.
That's the whole point. That's the whole point.
Whether you're talking about health equity, health disparities,
workforce, you've got to be able to demonstrate what is the value proposition
for them, what is the return on investment, and speak broadly enough.
(01:32):
One of the things we've been working over this past year is creating a formalized
national mentoring network.
And so many times as I talk to students, is they have an expectation that the
person should be reaching out to me. The person should be the ones giving.
And so I tend to think that you need to assert yourself as a mentee.
(01:55):
And I think that's a very important nuance for folks, all individuals, to understand.
Affirmative action was in place, and we still were not able to achieve our goals
of racially concordant care and having enough Black physicians,
(02:15):
right, to take care of the population in this country, even with affirmative action.
Music.
Welcome to another episode of Cobb and Company, the podcast of the W.
Montague Cobb Institute.
(02:37):
I am Dr. Randall Morgan. I'm president and CEO of the Cobb Institute.
Over the coming months, we will be welcoming numerous thought leaders in the
areas of health equity and increasing diversity in the healthcare workforce.
Today, it's my great pleasure to welcome Dr. Yolanda Lawson to the podcast.
(02:57):
Dr. Yolanda Lawson serves as the president of the National Medical Association.
Thank you for having me. We have much to talk about, but first I'm going to
share a little background for our listeners.
Dr. Lawson is a doctor of medicine and a fellow of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists.
(03:17):
She was installed as the 124th president of the the National Medical Association
in 2023 at the annual convention and scientific assembly in New Orleans, Louisiana.
That conference was entitled Accelerating the March Toward Health Equity.
She was previously the founder and leader of Madewell Obstetrics and Gynecology
(03:42):
in Dallas and an associate attending physician at Baylor University Medical
Center, where she still serves. Dr.
Lawson is deeply committed to the issue of health disparities of black women
and common issues faced by black physicians.
She addresses maternal health, cardiovascular issues, and HIV AIDS.
(04:05):
Her focus also includes the study of how to use digital innovation to close
the gap in healthcare disparities faced by black people and the impact of healthcare
in the workforce force of Black physicians,
including racism and burnout.
In addition to her presidency of the National Medical Association during the past 12 months, Dr.
(04:30):
Lawson recently became Executive Medical Director of Maternal Infant Health
at the Healthcare Service Corporation,
an organization that is dedicated to improving access to care and targeting
social and economic factors that and influence health.
So tomorrow you will present the closing remarks at the National Medical Association's
(04:54):
annual Montague Cobb Symposium.
Our theme this year is Then and Now, Navigating Best-in-Class Mentoring Innovation.
Could you share with us a flavor of your talking points for the symposium?
Certainly. Well, first of all, I'm really looking forward to the symposium.
(05:15):
You know that, again, as you stated, one of my passions is around the health care workforce.
But I think about that workforce from its infancy through the maturation.
And so the student piece, the resident education piece, and then there's a component
of preserving the current workforce.
And so then and now, in navigating best-in-class mentoring innovation,
(05:37):
the first thing when we talk about mentoring, one of the things we've been working
over this past year is creating a formalized national mentoring network.
I think it's needed. There are a lot of, I would say, a lot of requests from
students and residents.
But my thought around this, if you look at the workforce and you look at how
(05:59):
many physicians now are departing the workforce and not maintaining a clinical
practice or maintaining a clinical core,
I think we need to think about also mentorship as a lifelong component.
We need to develop and structure mentoring programs for students.
There needs to be some that are tailored more to the resident and early careerist.
(06:24):
But I also find myself, and this is personal, at mid-career needing mentorship.
And so I think that that's a demonstration project because it's common that
folks could need mentorship at any point in place.
And then the second point I would make, looking at currently the dissolution of so many DEI offices,
(06:49):
many times I know for me, those going to a medical school where there was that
type of office or an office of minority affairs,
that was a place where I could seek advice and guidance and mentorship too.
So I think us thinking about mentorship more discreetly focused and specific
(07:10):
is more important than ever, considering some of the policies are instituted
around certain states in this country.
So with regard to lifelong mentoring, how do we determine who the mentors will be?
And how do we even encourage or train those mentors?
(07:31):
Absolutely. So as we've been having meetings around this national formalized
mentorship network, the thought is that it should be retired physicians that are the mentors.
I push back on that a little bit. I actually just got off the elevator coming to meet you.
There was a gentleman who introduced himself to me as semi-retired,
(07:54):
a semi-retired dermatologist.
And I was like, oh, you're the type of person we need to mentor.
He's been a leader within NMA.
He's been a section chair before.
And so there is leadership that we know we need to groom in our leadership within the NMA.
There is leadership within our hospital institutions. There's leadership opportunities
(08:15):
for us in our communities.
As physicians and definitely as Black physicians.
And so when you talk about mentorship training, I think that one of the things
I worked on this year was expanding the public health care workforce.
We know after the pandemic, we had so many of our public health colleagues that
(08:38):
left the public health workforce.
So we've actually submitted a proposal around the development of the public
health workforce, specifically thinking about the integration with the HBCUs.
Many of them from the undergraduate level just don't have exposure.
(09:00):
So we're thinking about exposure opportunities. The second piece is going into
these public health schools and offering that the NMA become a playground for
those public health students who are interested in health disparities,
right, teaming them, that's going to be another structured, formalized way to
(09:21):
help also allowing them because they have to get those internship and those service hours.
So for me, mentorship can look a lot of ways.
It may not be the traditional way, but for me, it's also about exposure and
offering opportunities, structured opportunities, whether that's pathway programs
at medical schools for students, those opportunities for residents.
(09:46):
That is a form of mentorship, in my opinion. And I just want to go beyond the
traditional, get on a call, get on a Zoom call, and let's have some counseling
and conversations. I think it could be actionable.
And from the work that we've done with the Cobb Institute and the Cobb Scholars
Program, the pre-scholars program, it's easier to to sign up 10, 15, 20 scholars,
(10:11):
than it is to sign up three mentors.
And yet the scholars programs will only be successful if we have mentors.
That's true. And so I think inherent
in the goal of having more mentors is a way that NMA members have to be enlisted
(10:34):
to be a mentor in something where it's semi-voluntary going forth.
Because there's no particular time that you are a mentor.
It's just the way life happens. But if we're going to have programs like this
that the NMA supports, sponsors, organizes, we need a lot of people committed to be mentors.
(11:02):
And not just maybe, possibly, but definitely in there for a period of time because
they understand the goals that you have stated.
You're correct. They need to be all in. Yeah.
They need to be all in, and it's a commitment, and it's the consistency because
(11:22):
that's what definitely our medical students and our young residents and young physicians need.
And so I agree with you wholeheartedly. As I think about the Student National
Medical Association, we need to formalize that mentorship structure.
So I think there are places we can start.
And I think about all the specialties. We have 26 medical specialties.
(11:45):
Even if we just started with those sections, putting forth at least two to three
individuals, we have a network right there that we can create and begin to work
on that infrastructure.
And I think you said an important thing, thinking about the structure and the
education and the development of to be a mentor, right?
(12:06):
I don't claim to have gone through that, but I do know that my entire career,
I've identified mentors.
I'll tell you a quick story. I'm in the hospital. I'm in the doctor's lounge.
We're rounding, you know, where the doctors do their notes.
And I don't know, somehow I mentioned I needed to go. I need to have a call with my mentor.
(12:26):
One of my fellow colleagues, an anesthesiologist, he's like, you have a mentor?
You know, I guess he's saying at this point in my life. And I was like,
yeah, I have a mentor. He says, do they know that they're your mentor?
And I said, hmm, that's a good question. I have had mentors who don't even know
that I've identified them as that.
I call them regularly. So one of the things I talk to students about is being assertive.
(12:53):
Typically, the people we identify as mentors are typically highly functioning.
Titled, whatever you want to say. They're busy.
And so many times as I talk to students, they have an expectation that the person
should be reaching out to me.
The person should be the ones giving. And so I tend to think that you need to
(13:13):
assert yourself as a mentee. And I think that's a very important nuance for
folks, all individuals, to understand.
I agree. And so I think that, again,
with the experience that we've had with the Cobb Institute in terms of trying
to develop a program from scratch that has fairly high-level mentoring entering
(13:36):
requirements without the appropriate resources.
I think that taking advantage of the SNMA,
where you have these young students that are in the same location year after
year after year, that's a constant.
(13:57):
The other constant is that we have local societies in the National Medical Association
year after year after year.
And so marrying those two does several things.
You have an ongoing mentoring program, but you also have engagement of physicians on a local level.
So they don't have to come to New York if they can, you know,
(14:19):
have to go to Hawaii or wherever the national meeting is, but they can have
a profound influence on these young people by just being there.
That's the title, or rather the comment that Dr.
Bright made about mentoring. And a lot of times it's just about being there
and being the person that's there to be able to answer the question.
(14:44):
So I would encourage you to continue that and hold members of the NMA accountable.
And the SNMA gives us an excellent structure to make that happen.
What work have you seen that shows that maybe there may be more public health
(15:09):
schools or education programs available,
perhaps in response to COVID and some of the other challenges that we've had?
Are you aware of any efforts to to expand the public health curriculum or to
try to be more inclusive.
New students? There are a few, and I know the CDC has a focus on this,
(15:35):
so they definitely recognize the reduction in the public health care workforce.
And so that's why over this last year, they put out several funding requests
just on that specific piece,
and we actually structured a particular program and proposal and submitted that
to many institutions I saw did that.
(15:57):
ACOG, many of your specialty organizations, all of them were there thinking
about perhaps their only specific specialty and how the public health workforce
and epidemiology and all of this funnels into them.
I've seen it from the pharmaceutical industry also.
For instance, there is a shortage of HIV providers. And so we know Dr. Dawn Smith.
(16:22):
I looked at Gilead has a program with her, a fellows program to train and develop
those who may be interested in practicing HIV medicine and populations with HIV.
So there are several entities that are looking at that piece specifically,
especially in those areas where we definitely see some shortages.
(16:44):
I know the Elton John Foundation is doing some work.
Much of their work, I've been working with them some, is thinking about access
to care and how do we create those pieces and those portals.
So I think there are foundational pieces.
I think there's pharma I've seen working on it. And then I've also seen agency.
With regard to potential students in public health, as we look at this pipeline
(17:08):
and pathway program and the dilemma of getting young people admitted to medical schools,
are there opportunities for us to promote more public health education as well?
And, you know, MPHs, DBHs, that career path? I absolutely think so.
So I think there are a few things that you and I likely know.
(17:31):
Sometimes students may not get into medical school. They may pursue a MPH or
something in the interim as they begin to reapply.
Again, the proposal I have forth about putting together a internship program
at the NMA for these public health students, I think is important.
So thinking about healthcare careers broadly, one of the things I had a conversation
(17:58):
with a historically Black college undergraduate.
One of the things, and some of those institutions may not have strong science
programs, may not have a particular specific pre-med program,
also thinking about how do we.
Go into those institutions, provide a structured, you know, for me,
(18:22):
I've thought about a structured curriculum about exposure to the careers,
because I think everyone may not want to be a physician,
but I do think personally, I feel we also have a role in strengthening the healthcare
workforce, because we as physicians still need,
(18:42):
right, a cadre of other healthcare workers to take care of the patient populations that we do.
And then the other thing, I think, when you just outline the structure of the
NMA, you think about Cobb, you talked about SNMA, SNMA chapters are all at institutions.
(19:04):
And so one of the things we did in my local society is partnered with the institution.
The institution, and I'm saying this because I think this could happen with the Cobb scholars,
The institution came to us thinking about how are we going to ensure there is
a diverse workforce and we have diverse mentors in the community.
(19:29):
We know we don't have enough at our institution.
So we need you all, the NMA Society here locally, to provide a resource for
mentorship and community presence.
And through making that with the institution, we now have a formalized twice-year mentoring branch.
We bring in all of the specialties. We have signs so students can team up with
(19:52):
members, physician members in the community who may be in a specialty that they desire to go into.
So I think it's about, so one of the things that's really driven me this year
is around collaboration.
And I collaborate with everyone and I maximize and optimize every every relationship
to collaborate on to move forth the agenda.
(20:13):
Thank you. I think those are extremely important points.
And the National Medical Association is really in an excellent position to lead collaboration.
And I think many times we don't do that because we're waiting on someone else to do it.
And we just underestimate the influence that we can have. So,
(20:37):
there are times like this that we are challenged to come up with different solutions.
So, we've talked a little about this, but still I think because of the topic of the.
Been a year that's passed since the Supreme Court decision or the Supreme Court
opinion, as many of us would rather say, in June of 2023 on affirmative action.
(21:01):
So as that's occurred a lot of the time has been, as you've been the president
of the National Medical Association,
have you seen any type of consensus emerge as to more effective ways that organizations
or educational institutions can increase the numbers of underrepresented populations
(21:23):
entering the health care workforce.
I mean, we've talked about public health and some of the other areas of health care.
What other types of strategies do you think we could implement?
And there may be strategies that are being implemented in your home state of
Texas, which, as we know, is one
(21:45):
of those states in which we have always historically had those challenges.
Yes, and SB 17 passed in Texas as of January, all DEI offices were to dissolve.
There have been multiple reports on, you know, most of the staff,
faculty that were parts of those departments have been dissolved and lost jobs and employment there.
(22:12):
There is a framework, you know, I'm hearing as I travel around the country,
some people now are developing offices of belonging, inclusive offices.
All of the presidents of the marginalized or minoritized medical associations,
we came together at the AMA meeting this year and talked about some of the challenges
(22:35):
that these policies provide to us.
And so I think that as we think about moving forward,
And the strategies that we move forward, I think, number one,
we don't need to stop advocating, right?
(22:55):
So I often say this, affirmative action was in place, and we still were not
able to achieve our goals of racially concordant care and having enough Black physicians,
right, to take care of the population in this country, even with affirmative action.
I testified before the Senate a few months ago, and much of that was around
(23:19):
the Black physician workforce and the shortages and what could we do around that.
So as far as a consensus statement, I've tried to collaborate on a broader level
with other health care organizations and other professional organizations.
The Black lawyers have the same concerns.
(23:41):
Black business, same concern. Blacks in finance, same concerns.
Black accountants, same concerns.
Black nurses, same concerns. And so I have worked this entire year for over
30 organizations that we've all come together,
making sure that we create an advocacy block of individuals to help inform policies
(24:08):
to navigate what has occurred last year.
And then the second piece to this, as I discussed in my Senate hearing,
is the piece around medical education debt.
That is another component for me.
I think that we can gain leverage because I think everyone's concerned about
(24:30):
that and how that is a barrier for folks wanting to pursue a career.
With the testimonies that you had with the Senate and other organizations where
you've spoken on behalf of.
The minority medical students or practitioners.
(24:52):
Thinking about response, what resonates to people that may be neutral,
anti, uninformed, or not?
What is it that seems to resonate?
So with legislators, what resonates? I don't personally feel many times the
(25:14):
disparities in the health equity conversation resonates with them.
Workforce definitely resonates with them. There is an economic piece to the workforce,
and there is an economic advantage to a diverse workforce in providing them
data and information around that.
(25:35):
Because when you talk about workforce, force.
That engages others. That engages the hospital lobby.
It engages industry, pharmaceutical, the pharmacist.
It engages nursing.
It engages, there's part of the engine.
So workforce tends to land well.
(25:55):
And if I get my foot in the door on workforce, I then embellish and discuss
the a diverse workforce because when you talk about healthcare outcomes.
Whether you're talking about health insurance companies, hospitals,
everyone, government, everyone's interested in the outcomes piece because there's a cost to that.
(26:17):
And so we know what health disparities and the existence of health disparities
lends to the economy and the GDP.
And so there's a translation I often say whether you're talking about health
equity, health disparities,
workforce, you've got to be able to demonstrate what is the value proposition
(26:39):
for them, what is the return on investment, and speak broadly enough.
Exactly. I've always felt that's the case, that when you're talking about health disparities,
we'll never really have people appreciate what we're talking about until we
are able to talk about the business case for the solution.
(27:03):
Whether it's health disparities or health inequities or whether it's a demographic
issue, it's always about the money.
I think it's important for us to understand where it resonates because that
means we have to do a better job developing our pitch.
We do. When we're, you know, and that's something that your successor, Dr.
(27:28):
Cain, needs to be, she's pretty aware of testimony.
But still, I think the key points as the president of the National Medical Association
that none of us have ever made before in our own little world.
But now you're representing everybody. And so these are some key points.
(27:48):
But the money is always seemingly something that draws the attention.
And so it seems that we have to be really vigilant about finding ways to kind
of get that word in there.
The value, the return on investment. What is the value proposition for me or
(28:09):
them to make policies or investments to reduce these disparities?
That piece has to be refined. Right.
That's the whole point. That's the whole point. And so hopefully we'll become
better at creating that message.
But I think we probably, as an association, need a little work in the whole
(28:35):
area of PR to craft messages.
Yeah. And the message should be the same.
Message should be the same. Message should be consistent.
Message should be, and I find a way, no matter where I am.
I was in Germany last week. I presented on the national stage,
and it was around U.S. Black women, the experience around long-acting peps.
(29:00):
So while there are disparities in HIV broadly in this country from race,
there's also disparities in gender, and then there's disparities in drug access, right?
But again, what's the value proposition when you can reduce disease state?
We here at the White House said they want to end the epidemic.
So then how do we close those gaps? So our final question really has to do with the Cobb Institute.
(29:25):
And as you know, it's now 20 years since its launch.
We're celebrating this by doing this podcast to honor Dr.
Cobb's legacy and also his passion for anthropology. So the question is,
do you have any thoughts about Dr.
Cobb's approach with regard to anthropology or with regard to his view on racism
(29:51):
and equity that may have inspired your thinking? Absolutely.
So this past week, I was invited by the White House to attend the White House
commemoration on the 60th anniversary of the passage of the Civil Rights Act.
It was at the LBJ Library.
LBJ's family was there. It was a very moving ceremony. And that day I actually woke up.
(30:15):
I started reading some of Dr.
Cobb's writings from the JNMA about I wanted to get a sense going there.
What were members? What was the journal?
What were they writing about in the midst of knowing the Civil Rights Act was?
Was going to be signed. And boy, all I can tell you is I could tell he was busy. I read his article.
(30:43):
He seemed so busy and just, you could tell his neurons were firing, right?
Thinking about all of the implications, what it was going to mean for healthcare
and for the future of the Black community and the Black person and all the,
you know, you think before the Civil Rights Act was passed, the substandard care,
(31:04):
the segregated hospitals, the lack of resources.
So that is what I did that day, thinking about Dr.
Cobb. Most recently, you heard me talk about the organizations and the collaboration.
Actually, the Black medical anthropologists were one of the groups that reached
out and locked and joined in thinking about what this movement and policies.
(31:28):
And, And, you know, we think about, for me, when I started this work, Dr.
Morgan, I was thinking about formalizing and creating the Black health care
agenda, forming it interprofessionally with not only Black doctors,
but the others who are part of this.
So it's a well-informed, because here we are talking about equity.
(31:51):
We have to offer equitable opportunities, too, right?
We have to be that, who we say and what we say we want. And so when I think about Dr.
Cobb, I knew that, and I had a sense from what I've known in my readings about
him, you know, he led with that.
He led with this around equity, it's around justice, it's around the civil rights.
(32:15):
And I think that we have to figure out
a way in these contemporary and modern times when we have families and students
who may not understand these historical pieces and how they relate and are still
relatable today. It is very lost.
(32:36):
Absolutely. And that's certainly something that I have experienced because I
typically pester Howard medical students by asking them, tell me about Dr.
Codd. Tell me about Montague Codd. Yeah. Crickets.
Don't know. Yeah. And even we had a symposium at Howard last January,
(33:01):
and I picked off a few. the way that he used to pick people off in anatomy.
But so he's a historian.
That basically is what he was.
And his journals and everything in NMA were always about history and the importance of history.
So you really hit the point. And that time, I was getting ready to enter medical
(33:28):
school, or I was, yes, and be in his class.
So I was 64. So I was in his class in 65.
And, of course, we were dealing with Medicare, Medicaid. But we didn't know
that he was president of NMA.
Oh, yeah. As a student. As a student. I hear you. We were totally into the anatomy later.
(33:48):
He's our instructor. He was our instructor. And we're just trying to make it.
And it's been only through my research, as in my position, that I learned how
many balls he was juggling at the same time.
But he always used the NMA and the JNMA as his platform. Yeah.
(34:11):
And so. And I literally that day read.
He was just writing because it was about to happen.
Right. And so it really, I mean, that's so brilliant of you to even think of that. I mean, really.
And it was so moving because President Biden said, and I didn't know this,
(34:33):
but he told a lot of stories that day.
But President Biden said, actually, I think he may have been in law school or
about to enter law school when it was passed.
He said, actually, the Civil Rights Act, the passage of that is what inspired
him to even go into politics.
Because he was like, I had a job, a nice fancy job at a nice fancy law firm. Yeah. Right.
(34:58):
In Delaware, but he was like, it was the passage of that, that's what inspired him to enter politics.
And you know, he grew up with Richard Allen Williams.
They were very close friends in Delaware, from Wilmington.
A past president. Williamson was supposed to speak to tomorrow.
(35:20):
But it's, I mean, I'm telling you, it's a very small world. Small world, yeah.
We met with Congresswoman Lisa Blunt Rochester yesterday, Delaware,
running for Senate. We met with her yesterday.
So this is something we have to share with our members, with NMA.
And so he was obviously prolific, analytic.
(35:43):
He was persistent because if he had a cause, he was going to be on that cause
until. And so the M.O.D.E.F.
Movement with the hospital integration was one that was extremely important to him.
And it existed until, obviously, Medicare came about and made it illegal to segregate hospitals.
(36:08):
So just think about how he was involved in that. And the structuring.
Right. Because it was brilliant. Yeah.
It was brilliant. it. And there we were in the anatomy lab at 2 a.m.
And he comes in playing the violin or lecturing on Greek mythology or something.
So I think we had a great conversation and I look forward to working with you in the future.
(36:35):
And as we keep trying to solve these problems that sometimes seem to be insolvable,
but I know that we can make it happen.
So after you are able to complete this successful convention and year and take
a breath, then we'll look for you for the next thing to keep you busy.
(36:56):
Yeah, I think so. But we appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Music.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!