April 27, 2024 • 60 mins
What a heartwarming conversation with my dear friend Thérèse Cator.
In this episode, Thérèse and I discuss the effects of assimilation on our bodies, healing, identity, and more. We also discuss how healing can emerge when we are in spaces where we can be in our full humanity and don't have to be in a state of hypervigilance.
Bio:
Thérèse Cator is the founder of Embodied Black Girl, a global community that centers the healing and liberation of Black women and femmes and communities of color. She’s also a mother, a Decolonial Leadership Mentor, a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, an anti-oppression facilitator, an artist and a medicine keeper from a deep lineage of scholars, medicine people and revolutionaries from Ayiti.
Thérèse's work has been featured multiple times in both Forbes and Mashable, as well as Essence, Travel Noire, Jezebel, Authority Magazine, Mind Body Green, Motherly, and Yahoo News, among others.
Over the past 15 years, she's worked with people from all backgrounds, and her work explores the intersection of spirituality, somatics and social change. Thérèse's work exists in the world to provide deep counsel and guidance to cultural shapers to heal intergenerationally, unearth their deepest expression of embodied leadership and birth revolutionary work and worlds.
You can learn more at: www.embodiedblackgirl.com and www.theresecator.com and find her on IG @theresecator
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You know, that's somethingwe don't think about, right?
(00:01):
Making our food not goodenough by the white culture.
Those of us who are Asian, we look atour food, we're like, oh, I shouldn't
eat this and that, because a lot ofAsian foods are high in carbohydrates.
But what does the white culture tell us?
Carbohydrates are bad for you.
So it creates this dilemmaof, I don't know what to do.
(00:25):
And then you have issues with food.
Yeah.
And then at the same time, I just thinkthere are, you know, Asian cultures and
other cultures around the world wherepeople have the longest life expectancy.
Capitalism.
White supremacy cannot have my body.
(00:48):
No more.
Those systems have done a number on mybody and I am at the point for years now,
several years now that I've been able tosay, you can no longer have this body.
This is my body.
(01:09):
This, this is my ancestors body.
. In this episode, my dear friend Thérèse Cator and I talk about
the effects of assimilation on ourbodies, healing, identity and more.
We also discuss how healing can emergebeing in spaces where we can be in
(01:34):
our full humanity and we don't haveto be in a state of hypervigilance.
If Assimilation is a new concept for you.
It is often discussed in thecontext of cultural assimilation.
When immigrant groups are encouragedto adopt the culture, values and
(01:55):
social behaviors of the host nation.
This means shedding hiding aspects of.
one's culture, including foodclothing religion, language.
Thérèse is the founder of Embodied BlackGirl a global community that centers,
the healing and liberation of Black womenand femmes and communities of color.
(02:20):
Thérèse.
and I met in person last yearat the advanced level of our
somatic experiencing training.
But we have been friends onlinefriends since 2017, I think 2018.
It was so good for my heart tofinally meet Thérèse in person.
(02:45):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Good morning, my friend.
Good morning.
I'm so happy to be here with you.
So happy to see your face.
I'm so happy to have you here.
We've had a couple ofhiccups due to Mother Nature.
(03:05):
One time was snowstorm.
I know it was such a bad snowstorm.
And then it took us forever toeven start this because we're
chatting, chatting, chatting away.
Welcome.
Please introduce yourself,who you are, your ancestry,
where you live, what you do.
(03:26):
Thank you.
I'm Thérèse Cator.
my pronouns are she, her, hers.
Who am I?
I am a mama.
That's the first thing that comes to mind.
I'm a mama.
I'm a daughter.
I am a sister.
I'm an auntie.
I was born in Ayiti, I was raised inBrooklyn, New York, and I just think
(03:55):
that what's really coming forward is thateverything that I do is in service of
spirit and my beloved ancestors, , andfor the healing and liberation of.
of black women and femmes inparticular, but I believe that
has a ripple impact on everyone.
(04:19):
So how old were you whenyou came to Brooklyn?
I was only a few years old.
I think I was like four,five years old at the time.
Did you grow up with alot of extended family?
I did.
We first lived in an apartment andit was like, oh my gosh, So many
(04:42):
extended family members in there.
, and then even after we moved, I,for my entire life, I have lived
in an intergenerational setting.
Yeah, so that is definitelya part of my, my upbringing.
Why did your parents Go to New York.
(05:03):
Go to Brooklyn.
Oh, it's a, well, mymom, , it's a long story.
As I have gotten older, whatI recognize is that there's a
lot of displacement, you know.
, specifically, there's so muchthat has been done to destabilize
Haiti and so many people.
(05:27):
Are forced to move, not that theynecessarily want to move, but we're seeing
this, you know, today with, , climatechange and how that impacts a lot of
people and what is considered quote,unquote, the global south in a different
way than it impacts folks who are inwhat is considered the global north.
(05:47):
But what I've come to see,it's that it's a force.
migration, right?
It's a forced migration because ofthe destabilization of the region.
Have you been back to Haiti?
I haven't been.
I haven't been back.
(06:08):
Every time.
Again, destabilization.
Every time that I was supposedto go back, something occurred.
, and that's also something that's broughtup a lot of grief and also brought up
around, , feelings of belonging and home.
And what does that mean?
(06:31):
Since we're talking about the feelingsof belonging, which is a big topic for
me, because a lot of people I know,and myself included, those of us who
identify as BIPOC, often there's a,it's very hard to find a sense of
belonging, because we stand out, right?
(06:53):
A lot of us, when we are younger wetry to fit in, not knowing that We
would never fully fit in, you know,and it's, I think it's something that
you don't recognize until you get olderand you'll stand strong in who you are.
Then you go, this is who I am,accept me for who I am, you
(07:15):
know, and I'm proud to stand out.
Where do you feel a sense of belonging?
Ah,
oh, that's such a loaded question.
We've got time.
Yeah, it's such a loaded question.
I kind of want to go back and I was justjust thinking about belonging and what
(07:37):
you said about the assimilation aspectand those are That's like one of the
weapons of colonialism and white supremacy, and what I think that many folks who
are black, indigenous folks of color.
And I include myself in this is thatwe don't realize that what one of
(08:03):
the things that really roots us isactually the culture that we come from.
So we try to assimilate into reallysomething that has no culture, right?
It's, it's a form of self erasure.
So for me, , the journey has beenembracing reclaiming the parts of
(08:29):
myself that I was taught by ourover culture, not my family, , but
taught by our over culture to erase.
To dim down and just.
And I think it's just goingto be a lifelong journey.
What's really help with belonging forme is recognizing that no matter where
(08:54):
I am on earth, that the thing thatconnects us all is actually the Earth.
Hmm.
So the earth and that it makes meemotional because the earth is our mother.
, And, or at least that'swhat I believe, like.
(09:14):
The mother that nurtures us that gives usfood that without, without this, without
the earth, like none of us could live.
So, recognizing that no matterwhere I am on earth, I belong
because I belong to the earth.
(09:35):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
And, you know, and it breaksmy heart and what we're doing
to, earth, to mother nature.
Yeah.
I'm curious, , reclaimingparts of yourself.
How that looks like, because Iknow it's different for everyone.
I'd love to hear your journey
(09:58):
.Yeah, I mean, I feel like almost I was forced into this
journey in many different ways.
It started when I was reallyyoung, , in my very early twenties
when I received a diagnosis.
And I had to have surgery and essentiallywhat I was told by my doctor, and I
(10:21):
was fortunate to have a great caringdoctor at the time, and that this is
something that shows up in elderly people.
Right.
This is not something I should be havingat this age and I just had this intuitive
knowing, , sometime after that, that thiswas linked to the food that I was eating.
(10:48):
So, although I grew up eating myancestral foods, grew up in the city
after school, I would hit McDonald'swith my friends and all the fast food.
And.
you know, it was havingan impact on my body.
Right.
And this is, and I just want toname that with like certain forms
(11:10):
of caution, because some peoplethat's all they have access to.
Right.
And food is food.
I don't want to like, um, there'sa certain type of morality
that we have around food.
And I'm also holdingthat nuance with that.
(11:33):
This over culture, this culturethat we live in, at least that I
live in, it creates certain typesof food in order to kill us, right?
Whatever they're making, that'sfull of , salt and you know, all
of that, the food is actuallycreated as as a weapon as well.
(11:57):
So I'm holding those things oflike, , there are people who live in
food deserts , and at the same time,this is there, that could be your only
source of food and recognizing thatthere are bigger powers at play around
what we're putting in our bodies.
Yeah, so it started with.
Really going back, , and changingwhat I consume and I was fortunate
(12:23):
at the time to be able to do that.
That is a privilege, right?
And that slowly started to kill my body.
That slowly started, I still had to havesurgery, so didn't stop the surgery, but
all the other things that Were happening.
(12:44):
It stopped that right.
So going back to my ancestral foods.
I think that was the very beginning.
And then I think what the thingsthat really shifted it were number
one when I experienced so muchgrief when my dad passed away.
(13:07):
, and my dad is also.
A survivor of the two thousand andten earthquake that happened in Haiti.
And only a few years after he passed away.
So also me recognizing even thattimeline was like another layer of grief.
(13:31):
My dad was, , just abrilliant mathematician.
He was an artist.
He was also a medicine man.
And I remember during his funeral,there was story after story of all
the good, , that he has done andall the lives that he had touched.
And , I've always been a spiritual person,but it really was almost like a wake
(13:56):
up call for me at the time to embrace.
More parts of me that I had hidden.
So, in my work, I was already supportingpeople in those ways, but that's not
what I was leading with publicly, right?
(14:18):
So, that's that assimilation piece, right?
When, okay, I'm going tohide this part of myself.
I will lead with, I will help youbuild your website, for example, right?
But you're like, wait a minute, you getin there, it's something else, right?
Or it's something deeper, right?
And then within not long aftermy dad passed away, experiencing
(14:45):
in the span of like a few years,experiencing state violence.
Medical violence, , those things broughtme even more further back, , further
into reclaiming who I, I was becauseactually I had to reclaim my body
(15:06):
because that's what these systems want.
Yeah, reclaiming your body.
Oh, that just hit me in my heart becauseso many of us, , when we assimilate,
that's what's, that's one of thefirst thing we give up without knowing
(15:30):
it, you know, without knowing it.
And I also want to name that whenwe assimilate, we are made to feel
so guilty about our ancestral food.
Right?
It smells.
Can't bring it to school.
(15:51):
Yeah, can't bring it to school.
It smells.
Oh, you shouldn't eat this.
For me, for example, one of myancestral foods is rice, white rice.
But how long, , what does , the fitnesswellness industry tell us about it?
Oh, don't eat it.
High in sugar, high in carbohydrates.
(16:13):
And then, and then it's like, uh,okay, if you don't eat it, , then
, what do you turn to, you know,what other foods do you turn to?
And you say this so well, isthat then you start to eat food
that are no good for your body?
Not good for your system.
, for me, when I reclaim that part ofit, eating my ancestral foods again, my
(16:37):
digestive system was so much happier.
Yes.
Yeah.
Because I gave up white rice fora few years and went to quinoa.
, my digestive systemwas like, what is this?
I'm like, Oh, it's fine.
It's fine.
healthier, but my body was so unhappy.
(17:02):
What are some of your ancestryfoods that you love that you enjoy?
Oh, , rice and beans, rice and beans,definitely one of the ancestral foods.
, on the first we, on the 1stof January new year is , the
celebration of the independence.
(17:25):
, Haitian Independence Day and weeat, , everyone eats soup Joumou,
what they call soup Joumou, whichis a form of squash, , that I love.
We make it throughout the year,but it's just like on that day,
, everyone who has that ancestry,that lineage eats that food.
And then depending on the time ofyear, there's like a whole bunch
(17:48):
of different foods that you eatdepending on what time of year.
But it's really seasonal.
Right.
It really also is seasonal.
, , what you eat, but thoseare some of my favorites.
I love soups.
I just had soup actually just before itwasn't that soup, but I had, I love soups.
Um, and the same thing here, that'sthe other part, because when I was
(18:10):
talking about the foods that, , youknow, not wanting to moralize food, but
I'm like, McDonald's is not the sameas like our ancestral foods of like
white rice that they try to demonize.
I know that for years they would saykale, Oh my God, everyone has to eat kale.
(18:33):
And people were switching from eatingcollard greens to eating kale when
collard greens are just as nutritious,
you know, we're always making collardgreens also in the, in the house too.
But it.
It's just as nutritious, but theother part is like what it, the foods
(18:56):
that folks who are Black, Indigenous,and people of color eat, those
are the foods that get demonized.
Those are the foods that aresupposedly always unhealthy, that you
shouldn't eat, , the list goes on.
Well, and then you take intoconsideration eating disorders.
(19:21):
It's quite rampant in the Asianculture, not talked about, but
it is quite rampant, especiallythe young people, and especially
those who have immigrated here.
Because then it's like,Oh, you shouldn't eat this.
And then it becomes a.
a lot of them are like, oh,then they're restricting eating.
(19:42):
You know, that's somethingwe don't think about, right?
Making our food not goodenough by the white culture.
Those of us who are Asian, we look atour food, we're like, oh, I shouldn't
eat this and that, because a lot ofAsian foods are high in carbohydrates.
But what does the white culture tell us?
Carbohydrates are bad for you.
(20:03):
So it creates this dilemmaof, I don't know what to do.
And then you have issues with food.
Yeah.
And then at the same time, I just thinkthere are, you know, Asian cultures and
other cultures around the world wherepeople have the longest life expectancy.
Right.
So it's like, okay, so whyisn't that they're eating
(20:24):
white rice and they're fine.
It's like, it's like, that'snot taken into consideration.
And we also have to go and talkabout, of course, the research bias.
Right.
Oh, yes.
Who, the, who there is any research thatcomes out, it's typically research around
white folks, most likely white male.
(20:45):
If it's not white male, maybe, youknow, there might be a few white
female, but how many of even whatis considered research includes.
Folks of color, right?
Black, indigenous and folks of color.
Not many.
, this was surprising to me, but I guessmaybe I shouldn't be surprised because my
(21:06):
husband, he always said to me, one of myflaws is that I expect the best of people.
So I was having a conversation witha white friend the other day about
how harmful the body mass index is.
The BMI.
And this friend was like, but why?
(21:26):
I'm like, because it was designed.
The research group waswhite men, white people.
It doesn't take into accountfolks of color, you know, and now
most of us know that the BMI is a
it's a horrible tool, you know, butI was still, I was surprised that
(21:48):
a lot of people still don't know.
And then when you go to the, no,and then when you go to the doctor
a person of color and they usethe BMI on you, suddenly you're
obese when you think, yeah, right.
Because according to the BMI, I'm obese.
Right.
And it was like, okay, no, let me justtake that tool throw it out a window.
(22:14):
Wow.
Wow.
Can, I mean, wow.
And then we internalize it and then makedecisions and choices based on that.
And then if we have, if we havechildren, how that creates this
ripple impact within our homes.
(22:35):
Within, you know, other people that wereact, I mean that we interact with if
we have clients, how that creates harm.
And I'm just thinking about this,and I was just thinking about this
actually over the weekend, thatwhen I was pregnant with my son, I
(22:58):
remember going to the, , OB GYN for.
You know, my routine exam and I rememberthe woman who was my doctor at the time
was really obsessed with her weight tothe point where literally the entire
(23:21):
appointment, she was talking about beingon weight watchers in one breath, like
talking about being on weight watchers.
You'd see all like the different.
You know, packages, drinks onher desk and things like that.
And then in the next breath, sheliterally projected that onto me and
(23:44):
was like, Oh my God, you have gainedtoo much weight during the pregnancy.
You have done this,this and that and that.
And then she ordered a series of tests.
By the time that I was leavingthat office, I was in tears.
Because she had been she convincedshe was convinced that I had, um,
(24:07):
what is the, the diabetes gestationaldiabetes, gestational diabetes.
Right.
She was convinced.
And I knew in my body.
I was like, no, I don't.
No, I don't.
However, I went and took the test,even though I was like in tears.
(24:27):
And of course, what did the test show?
I didn't have anything right.
I did not have.
Okay.
And she was shocked.
I ended up leaving that doctor, but thisis some of the violence that happened.
It was an unnecessary test whereI had to drink unnecessary, you
(24:48):
know, chemicals, essentially.
They say it's safe, but I had todrink these unnecessary chemicals
in order to do this test.
Before I became a therapist, I wasin Chinese medicine for 14 years,
so a lot of my practice was treatingfertility and hormones for women and
(25:10):
the number of I don't know if youknow this, so gestational diabetes
is common in Asian women when they'repregnant, just one of those things
is in our genetics, and so many of myclients who came in who are Asian, when
they're pregnant, have had gestationaldiabetes, but same thing as what your
(25:32):
doctor did was to make them feel guilty.
About it.
You had too much sugar.
You got to stop drinking your iced tea.
You got to stop eating rice.
You got to stop eating beans becausethey're all high in sugar, but there was
no recognition that okay, perhaps theseare the things you need to be doing, but
(25:53):
no recognition that it's not your fault.
It's genetics.
And that it's so toxic.
Like you walk out of the appointmentgoing, what did I do wrong?
Yeah.
I mean, I was in tears.
Yeah.
I was in tears and so upset,during that appointment.
(26:14):
And this is this white woman literallyprojecting her own issues, right.
Which of course are from theover culture but given the power
dynamics within that room and thatspace projecting it on to me.
Right.
And that having an impact not only on me,but also on the baby that I'm carrying.
(26:40):
Yeah, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that just makes meangry, you know, and I read.
Somewhere.
I can't remember, but the advicefor folks of color, especially women
(27:03):
of color now is when you go and seea doctor, bring someone else with
you, whatever is for especially forserious things, because then you
have a friend to advocate for you.
In the room, so you don't have to becausethen you don't have to deal with it on
your own, because oftentimes when you gosee the doctor, if it's if you're there
(27:28):
for something, even remotely like serious.
Many people kind of zone out,because it's going to freeze right.
So they are like, if you bringa friend, at least they can
be there and ask questions.
Yeah.
(27:48):
And I think, I think at the timeit just felt out of left field
because I wasn't there alone.
I wasn't.
It just came out of left field.
And I think what happened, weactually both were in shock.
It was like a level of shock.
Um, and I think there alsoneeds to be conversations.
(28:14):
Before going in because you canbring someone and it's like almost
like role playing scenarios to belike, okay, if this comes up, this
is, but then at the time, this was,you know, this is the first time
this is happening to me.
So I didn't know thatthis was going to come up.
(28:34):
Right, so I didn't even have this.
This framework to, to, like, prepare for.
And also, at that time in my life, Iwas disconnected in many sense from
community because I was living on theopposite coast from where I grew up.
(28:57):
So there were, there's so many factors atplay, um, when things like that happen.
And, it's like , that power they puton, you know, if it's a doctor, the white
coat or just like the doctor, there'sa certain power dynamic that happens.
(29:17):
in those rooms.
And I think I'm also thinking about howthose power dynamics also extend into,
child protective services too, right?
Because if a doctor believes that youare potentially harming a fetus or
(29:40):
harming your child, they could report you
The tentacles go really far.
The extra steps.
we have to take to protect ourselves.
Right.
In one of the podcast episode, Iinterviewed one of my teachers from
(30:03):
grad school, and she's, a black womanwho lives in the South and she's been
in the field for a very long time.
And I love talking to her.
One of the things she said waswhen she first started practicing,
she quickly realized thather supervisor who was white.
didn't get it and wanted to callsocial services or the police when
(30:29):
she shared what the mother did or whatthe mother has said to the children.
And then my teacher was like, but that ispart of the culture, for so long, those
of us who, you know, especially if we tryto assimilate, we think, oh, there's only
one way to do things, which is the white.
(30:51):
patriarchal way.
And then as you take a step backand start to reclaim yourself,
you think, no, no, our culturehave our own way of doing things.
Right.
And if, you know, if harm is happening,then as a community, because those of
us who, grew up in collectivist culture,then as a community, let's take a look at
(31:12):
them, not just call in The powers to fixsomething that the community can be there
for each other and look after each other.
And that is, you know, that is racismbecause they wouldn't call CPS, you
know, here, I don't know what theycall it in Canada, but Child Protective
(31:35):
Services that they call here, theywouldn't call that on a white mother.
It's, The dehumanization of folks whoare black and folks who are brown folks
of color folks who, are in differentclasses, right, who are working class.
(31:59):
And who's, it's almost like,it's almost like you shouldn't
even have a child, right, it'salmost like it's almost like that.
Um, that's the sense that I get, butit's, it's that the way the violence
gets perpetrated, right, because I'm justthinking in that situation that I was
(32:20):
in, it can escalate in many ways, right?
There's many ways that it can escalate.
God forbid.
Okay.
You're like, no, I'm not going to take.
I'm not going to do this exam.
I'm not going to do this.
And then it turns out you do that.
I did have gestational diabetes andthen that had an impact on the child.
(32:41):
Like there's a many, many, many avenuesthat I can really spiral out of control.
I'm just thinking about, Iforget her name, but there was
this mother, this black mother.
And her partner whosechild was taken away.
This is like a common story.
I believe they're, they were in Floridaat the time and her son was taken away.
(33:04):
, because of what a doctorbelieved that he was underweight.
Right, because he was underweight.
So these folks who end upbeing agents of the state.
That's really what it is likethey end up being agents of the
state, , who then inflict violence.
(33:28):
Yeah, here it's a lot of talk aboutthe doctors mistreating, especially the
Indigenous folks, , because they have thisassumption that Indigenous folks drinks.
. and do drugs more thanthe other folks of color.
(33:51):
, there was a story a few years ago aboutthis grandfather, I think grandfather and
his granddaughter, who went to the bank.
The bank called the cops on them becausethey assumed that the grandfather was
drunk when he asked for somethingand the staff at the bank just
assumed, made an assumption and callthe police and he got put in jail.
(34:15):
He got arrested and then this whole thingmade it to the news and then the bank had
to apologize for, and then they're like,Oh, we're going to do diversity training.
Yeah.
And I just think about when you eventhink, you know, I also think about
the violence that is perpetrated, um,by bringing in, by bringing in drugs.
(34:45):
Right, substances, alcohol into certaincommunities and then denying health
care, denying education, denying basicrights, like inflicting the trauma
and then bringing in substances thatessentially help people cope and then
(35:10):
being like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
We're going to now stereotype you as.
Okay.
These are the folks whoare quote unquote on drugs.
Right.
And here, you know, the war ondrugs, what was the war on drugs
(35:33):
and, and the roots of that.
It's so violent.
Oh my gosh.
So violent and so heartbreaking becausethen with everything you say, and then
there was like, Oh, you guys are at fault.
You guys don't know what you're doing.
You guys don't, are not doing.
(35:54):
better, but then as to whatyou say, you're not giving them
the resources to do it either.
And if you give them theresources, you want to do, you
want them to do it your way.
Your way doesn't work ina collectivist culture.
(36:15):
That is not often nottaken into consideration.
Yeah, because it's individualist, right?
It's individualist.
It's so disconnected from theearth, like going back to like
it's disconnected from the earth.
And I think the collectivist culturethat we both grew up in, there's
(36:40):
a deep connection to the earth.
There's a deep connection thatthis is the earth that sustains us.
We are in relationship with the earth.
And in my culture, there's alot of connection to the moon
(37:02):
cycle too the lunar calendar.
That's how you plant.
Like my mom, that's how you would plant.
That's how you even like to thepoint of like, that's how you
would even take care of your hair.
Oooh tell me more about that okay,if you want your hair to grow, you
would wait until the new moon to docertain rituals to trim your hair.
(37:26):
You wait until the new moon.
That's one of them.
Mm mm mm.
Uh, and uh, when we were talkingabout food just now in the Chinese
culture is very much this food thatyou eat will help you to do this.
So when you're talking about hair, yeah.
It's like, oh, if you eat this food,it will help your hair become more
(37:46):
luscious and black and you won'tget gray hair as early, you know?
And it's all connected, right?
Like you say.
And then where do we get our food?
We get our food from Mother Earth.
From the rain, the sun, and if we cantap into that, then that connection to
self that we claim ourselves and ourbody is so much not easier but easier.
(38:14):
I think, yeah, it's literallyI was leading a group.
recently, and I was just saying,it's really about one of the
things I've had to say to myselfover the years is that capitalism.
White supremacy cannot have my body.
(38:36):
No more.
Those systems have done a number on mybody and I am at the point for years now,
several years now that I've been able tosay, you can no longer have this body.
This is my body.
(38:58):
This, this is my ancestors body.
Yeah.
And in the Western individualculture, especially for
women, the body is not yours.
That's what so many of us were taught.
(39:18):
It's not yours.
And if we get political, look at what'shappening in the courts, in the States,
they're taking away women's rights tomake decision about their own body.
And that just has generations ofimpact that they're not thinking about.
Yeah, and I think it's really interestingbecause with what has happened recently
(39:44):
with IVF, now you see that some offolks who are on the conservative end
of things, because now that's impactingthem, they're starting to talk about it.
And what really, really is like,I'm like, can you just not get it?
(40:09):
Our freedom is intertwined.
There is no freedomuntil everyone is free.
Yes.
So I can't remember the quote,but that quote that goes like
there essentially, it's like,they'll knock on your door one day.
They're going to come for you one day.
(40:31):
It's going to impact you one day.
It may not be today, But it's coming.
And it's really, it's, it juststems, I think, just from that
individual, like I, it's about me.
And the sad part, I reallydon't think folks who think
(40:53):
like that are really happy.
Right?
I don't think they're happy.
I think there's, I don't even wantto go into it, but Because that
could take an hour we're gonnago down a different rabbit hole.
We'll have you back and go downthat rabbit hole in another episode.
It's like, no, no, it'sgoing to come for you.
(41:18):
It's going to come for you.
And you should have seen that.
So, and the other thing is that, workingwith clients that are also outside of
the United States, the diaspora that'soutside of the United States, who share
with me in places like the Caribbean andother parts of the world, looks to what is
(41:44):
happening in the Western context, the U.
S.
context that impacts their laws.
Right.
That impact, you know, what, whatthey're able to do in their work
as well, in having justice, andequal rights for women, for LGBTQIA
(42:14):
plus folks, , it impacts theirwork too, and their lives too.
And I just think about, just recently Iread about how, in Ghana, how, they're
essentially saying that if you are someonewho's LGBTQIA , you can be put to death.
(42:41):
you can literally be put to death.
But when you look at it deeper, itis, the law is rooted from white,
religious fundamentalists thatare based in the United States.
Like, these are the folks that areactually impacting what is happening
(43:03):
in all the way in Ghana and Africa,
right?
It's so upsetting.
It's so, and yeah, it's reallyupsetting, because it's making Folks
who already are face so much oppressionand marginalization and so many ways,
(43:28):
it's making life harder, it's addinglayers of trauma and I know both of us we
work in helping to hopefully alleviate,maybe even transform shift that, but
it gets really difficult, because.
(43:52):
Of the systems and these laws thatare being put into place that are
making who you love illegal, makingyour body illegal, making it harder
to get access to health care.
Yeah, and a lot of my clients arewomen of color, and I'll say
(44:17):
to them when they bring up thesetopics that you just mentioned,
right, systemic racism, oppression.
And I say to them, I don'thave the magic answer.
I can be here for you.
I can hear, I can witness, I canlisten, and I wish I have the answer.
I wish I can help youto move forward from this.
(44:43):
But the reality is we needto acknowledge that the system
is there and it's harming us.
Because acknowledgement is apart of healing and then let's
look at other things that we canhelp you to heal because that
isn't going to change tomorrow.
All this systemic oppression,systemic racism, capitalism, you
(45:06):
know, white supremacy, that'snot going to change tomorrow.
I also don't know what is goingto change in our lifetime.
You and I, we do the work and weuplift the voices of those in need.
Then we look at other areas and goes,okay, how, well, how can I help?
(45:27):
What else can I do?
, I would love to talk about, yourglobal community, Embodied Black Girls.
Yeah.
It's such a sweet space.
To be in because it's a place whereI feel not only, you know, folks
(45:49):
share that it's a place where they'reable to land, but it's a place I'm
able to land over and over again.
And, , and it just reminds me ofthe important of having spaces
that are for black women and femmesand women and femmes of color.
And the conversations that we'reable to have, it's again, it's
(46:13):
not about having all the answers.
And I know for some people, they're like,I need an answer, please, you must give
me an answer, because I'm in so much pain.
And there has to be ananswer to this pain.
And like you, I don'tnecessarily have all the answers.
(46:39):
However, I feel that the answerscan emerge from being in spaces
where we're able to be in our fullhumanity, the healing can emerge and
being in spaces where we can be inour full humanity that we don't have
(47:00):
to be in a state of hyper vigilance.
,and constantly scanning and lookingfor threat that we can breathe, right?
We can just take a moment and breathe.
And that's not to saythat,, it's perfect, right?
(47:24):
I've been fortunate in the sense oflike there hasn't been these conflicts
and these things that have happened.
However, I do want to name that beingin community for many of us, or trying
to be in community, trying to be,or practicing, I like thinking of it
as practicing, can be really hard.
(47:45):
Right, can be really hard because Ithink on a, on one level is that back to.
assimilation, we've been taughtour bodies, we have this embodied
response of when, for example, whenblack folks are together, oh my
god, this is, it's dangerous, right?
(48:09):
It's dangerous because literallywhat would happen, what has
happened historically, Is that thosespaces have been monitored those
spaces by the government, right?
Those spaces have been infiltrated.
So, there can be some something withinpeople's system and also people have
(48:33):
experienced interpersonal harm, right?
Been like, oh, it's another person.
Another black person that hurt me, right?
So there has been alsolayers of interpersonal harm.
And at the same time.
(48:54):
I really do believe it's in beingtogether in these types of spaces that
we can find healing, but also access.
Leadership and hopefully collectivelybegin to create something different right
(49:19):
to create to impact even the systemsbecause I have, you know, I work with
folks to who work within the systemsright who, who have organizations who.
So they're doing work so withinthem within the system so if we can.
(49:39):
If that change can happen within,of course, the body and then within
other bodies, how that can have a.
A ripple of impact, and also recognizingit's not happening fast enough.
It feels like it's nothappening fast enough.
It's happening.
(50:01):
That's beautiful.
I'm so glad you're doing this work.
If you do have a magic wand?
Mm mm How would you want the worldto look like for your children?
(50:22):
Oh,
the first thing that, when you saidthat if you had a magic wand and I was
like, I do have a magic wand, . Ooh.
I was like, I do have a magic wand.
And that magic wand Ibelieve is our bodies.
(50:43):
But to answer your question, becauseit's such a juicy question, I
would want them to have an embodiedsense of freedom of liberation.
I'm like thinking about my littleone to really feel, to know where
he comes from, and who he comesfrom, and what he comes from.
(51:07):
And to have a firm understandingof the present moment, whatever
that present moment is at the time.
And to also be connected to thefuture, what is to come, and to
be connected to community, to beconnected to the earth, to be connected
(51:29):
to the cosmos, to the higher, thehigher self, to God, um, to really
be able to be in a relational space.
If the world can like snap ourfingers, get on the same page.
Let's get into deep relationshipwith one another relationship that
(51:52):
is honoring that is reverential thatrecognizes the sacredness of life.
My little one said to me theother day, everyone has a mother.
So everyone, um, like, trying tosay, like, everyone has a mother and
therefore is loved unconditionallybecause they have a mother.
(52:17):
Like there's someonewho loves them so much.
And I know that's not theexperience for necessarily everyone.
, But I like to believe thatwe all come from love, right?
Regardless of the circumstancesof how we were born.
(52:37):
And what that may look likefor, for all of us, but at
the source, we come from love.
We come from that seed oflife wanting to just burst.
Forward
life, wanting to like firstforward to spring into being,
(52:58):
and that's what we come from.
And I think that's love.
That's beautiful.
As you're sharing that, I'm like, forthose who feels like they didn't come
from love, if, they didn't have a greatchildhood, but to be able to take that,
(53:19):
what you're just sharing goes, maybelove doesn't mean your parents, you
know, love from Spirit, from universe.
From Mother Earth, that maybe canhelp with the healing process.
Next question is for fun.
If you could spend a day with someone,deceased or alive, who would it be?
(53:45):
Oh my gosh, who would it be?
I was thinking.
First, I was thinking Maya Angelouor Toni Morrison, who I have
both of them I've like adoredsince I was like a little girl.
Um, I would totally want to spendthe day with either one of them.
(54:07):
Yeah., well, let's, let's say youcould spend a day with two of them.
Is there like a burningquestion you would ask them?
The question that's coming likethat's, I guess, formulating is
a question around how do you rootto freedom in spite of the system?
(54:38):
How do you root?
How, you know, just there.
I would just love to hear theirindividual stories of like,
how, how do you root to freedom?
How do you root to lovein spite of or despite?
Because there's so muchhappening in the world right now.
(55:01):
And, one of the things that hasreally been, , just on my heart.
is despite the genocide that'shappening of the Palestinian
(55:22):
people, seeing folks get married,
I watched a wedding and I was like,wow, to me, that's, that's resistance,
but it's deeper than resistance becauseI feel like for, , for folks of color,
(55:44):
for indigenous folks, for black folks.
Our lives are more than just resistance.
And I think it goes back to, it's likesomething deeper wants to burst forward.
So I don't know if that answeredyour question, but I think it did.
(56:07):
It's a beautiful answer and thereminder to when you're doing, social
justice work, resistance work, thatyou don't forget to also hold joy.
So you allow yourself to experience joy.
(56:27):
I mean Go ahead.
Go ahead.
That's the last thing I'll say.
And like, I just think that is how forso many of us, our ancestors survived.
I remember growing up, so much laughter.
I mean, there's so muchlaughter in our house.
It was just like, literally youwould think you're at a comedy show.
(56:50):
I mean, the other thing, mydad was like the funniest.
One of the funniest people andcould tell the most amazing stories.
And you think you're at a comedyshow, so much laughter all
the time, it's interesting.
I think it's with my family.
We were so that one of the generationaltrauma with my family and I think
(57:16):
for some immigrants is we wereso caught up in the suffering.
You must work hard, you must suffer.
And because you suffer, thenyou will have great achievement.
So, not knowing how to hold joy andpain at the same time, that is one
(57:37):
of my biggest lesson to rememberthat on the bad days you can also see
joy, and I love that in your family.
you all embrace that.
Yeah.
Do you miss your dad's laughter.
I do, but I can like, I can literallygo back to it and just like recall it.
(58:02):
I can recall it really easily.
But I do miss him, likein the physical form.
I miss him, and I was just thinkingthe other day oh my god I wish I could.
Give him a hug and justfeel his hug, right?
,Thank you, my friend.
(58:22):
Oh, thank you so much.
This was so, so sweet.
Thank you for having me for inviting me.
Thank you.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
This week's advice from yourChinese Auntie, Yiyi, that's me.
Is if you're an immigrant like myself and.
(58:46):
You realize that.
You have given up a lot ofyour culture in order to fit in.
It's not too late.
To start.
And embrace your culture.
Start with.
Food.
What did your ancestors eat?
Try that again.
(59:08):
Maybe think about what yourgrandparents or great-grandparents.
Used to do.
Maybe they read poetry.
That is something that.
You can start.
Dabbing into.
Whatever it is.
If you are constantly trying to fitin and find a sense of belonging.
(59:29):
I hope you reach out tomembers of your community.
And find a sense of home there.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
(59:51):
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapetersen.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
(01:00:12):
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
You know, that's somethingwe don't think about, right?
(00:01):
Making our food not goodenough by the white culture.
Those of us who are Asian, we look atour food, we're like, oh, I shouldn't
eat this and that, because a lot ofAsian foods are high in carbohydrates.
But what does the white culture tell us?
Carbohydrates are bad for you.
So it creates this dilemmaof, I don't know what to do.
(00:25):
And then you have issues with food.
Yeah.
And then at the same time, I just thinkthere are, you know, Asian cultures and
other cultures around the world wherepeople have the longest life expectancy.
Capitalism.
White supremacy cannot have my body.
(00:48):
No more.
Those systems have done a number on mybody and I am at the point for years now,
several years now that I've been able tosay, you can no longer have this body.
This is my body.
(01:09):
This, this is my ancestors body.
. In this episode, my dear friend Thérèse Cator and I talk about
the effects of assimilation on ourbodies, healing, identity and more.
We also discuss how healing can emergebeing in spaces where we can be in
(01:34):
our full humanity and we don't haveto be in a state of hypervigilance.
If Assimilation is a new concept for you.
It is often discussed in thecontext of cultural assimilation.
When immigrant groups are encouragedto adopt the culture, values and
(01:55):
social behaviors of the host nation.
This means shedding hiding aspects of.
one's culture, including foodclothing religion, language.
Thérèse is the founder of Embodied BlackGirl a global community that centers,
the healing and liberation of Black womenand femmes and communities of color.
(02:20):
Thérèse.
and I met in person last yearat the advanced level of our
somatic experiencing training.
But we have been friends onlinefriends since 2017, I think 2018.
It was so good for my heart tofinally meet Thérèse in person.
(02:45):
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Good morning, my friend.
Good morning.
I'm so happy to be here with you.
So happy to see your face.
I'm so happy to have you here.
We've had a couple ofhiccups due to Mother Nature.
(03:05):
One time was snowstorm.
I know it was such a bad snowstorm.
And then it took us forever toeven start this because we're
chatting, chatting, chatting away.
Welcome.
Please introduce yourself,who you are, your ancestry,
where you live, what you do.
(03:26):
Thank you.
I'm Thérèse Cator.
my pronouns are she, her, hers.
Who am I?
I am a mama.
That's the first thing that comes to mind.
I'm a mama.
I'm a daughter.
I am a sister.
I'm an auntie.
I was born in Ayiti, I was raised inBrooklyn, New York, and I just think
(03:55):
that what's really coming forward is thateverything that I do is in service of
spirit and my beloved ancestors, , andfor the healing and liberation of.
of black women and femmes inparticular, but I believe that
has a ripple impact on everyone.
(04:19):
So how old were you whenyou came to Brooklyn?
I was only a few years old.
I think I was like four,five years old at the time.
Did you grow up with alot of extended family?
I did.
We first lived in an apartment andit was like, oh my gosh, So many
(04:42):
extended family members in there.
, and then even after we moved, I,for my entire life, I have lived
in an intergenerational setting.
Yeah, so that is definitelya part of my, my upbringing.
Why did your parents Go to New York.
(05:03):
Go to Brooklyn.
Oh, it's a, well, mymom, , it's a long story.
As I have gotten older, whatI recognize is that there's a
lot of displacement, you know.
, specifically, there's so muchthat has been done to destabilize
Haiti and so many people.
(05:27):
Are forced to move, not that theynecessarily want to move, but we're seeing
this, you know, today with, , climatechange and how that impacts a lot of
people and what is considered quote,unquote, the global south in a different
way than it impacts folks who are inwhat is considered the global north.
(05:47):
But what I've come to see,it's that it's a force.
migration, right?
It's a forced migration because ofthe destabilization of the region.
Have you been back to Haiti?
I haven't been.
I haven't been back.
(06:08):
Every time.
Again, destabilization.
Every time that I was supposedto go back, something occurred.
, and that's also something that's broughtup a lot of grief and also brought up
around, , feelings of belonging and home.
And what does that mean?
(06:31):
Since we're talking about the feelingsof belonging, which is a big topic for
me, because a lot of people I know,and myself included, those of us who
identify as BIPOC, often there's a,it's very hard to find a sense of
belonging, because we stand out, right?
(06:53):
A lot of us, when we are younger wetry to fit in, not knowing that We
would never fully fit in, you know,and it's, I think it's something that
you don't recognize until you get olderand you'll stand strong in who you are.
Then you go, this is who I am,accept me for who I am, you
(07:15):
know, and I'm proud to stand out.
Where do you feel a sense of belonging?
Ah,
oh, that's such a loaded question.
We've got time.
Yeah, it's such a loaded question.
I kind of want to go back and I was justjust thinking about belonging and what
(07:37):
you said about the assimilation aspectand those are That's like one of the
weapons of colonialism and white supremacy, and what I think that many folks who
are black, indigenous folks of color.
And I include myself in this is thatwe don't realize that what one of
(08:03):
the things that really roots us isactually the culture that we come from.
So we try to assimilate into reallysomething that has no culture, right?
It's, it's a form of self erasure.
So for me, , the journey has beenembracing reclaiming the parts of
(08:29):
myself that I was taught by ourover culture, not my family, , but
taught by our over culture to erase.
To dim down and just.
And I think it's just goingto be a lifelong journey.
What's really help with belonging forme is recognizing that no matter where
(08:54):
I am on earth, that the thing thatconnects us all is actually the Earth.
Hmm.
So the earth and that it makes meemotional because the earth is our mother.
, And, or at least that'swhat I believe, like.
(09:14):
The mother that nurtures us that gives usfood that without, without this, without
the earth, like none of us could live.
So, recognizing that no matterwhere I am on earth, I belong
because I belong to the earth.
(09:35):
Yeah, that's beautiful.
And, you know, and it breaksmy heart and what we're doing
to, earth, to mother nature.
Yeah.
I'm curious, , reclaimingparts of yourself.
How that looks like, because Iknow it's different for everyone.
I'd love to hear your journey
(09:58):
.Yeah, I mean, I feel like almost I was forced into this
journey in many different ways.
It started when I was reallyyoung, , in my very early twenties
when I received a diagnosis.
And I had to have surgery and essentiallywhat I was told by my doctor, and I
(10:21):
was fortunate to have a great caringdoctor at the time, and that this is
something that shows up in elderly people.
Right.
This is not something I should be havingat this age and I just had this intuitive
knowing, , sometime after that, that thiswas linked to the food that I was eating.
(10:48):
So, although I grew up eating myancestral foods, grew up in the city
after school, I would hit McDonald'swith my friends and all the fast food.
And.
you know, it was havingan impact on my body.
Right.
And this is, and I just want toname that with like certain forms
(11:10):
of caution, because some peoplethat's all they have access to.
Right.
And food is food.
I don't want to like, um, there'sa certain type of morality
that we have around food.
And I'm also holdingthat nuance with that.
(11:33):
This over culture, this culturethat we live in, at least that I
live in, it creates certain typesof food in order to kill us, right?
Whatever they're making, that'sfull of , salt and you know, all
of that, the food is actuallycreated as as a weapon as well.
(11:57):
So I'm holding those things oflike, , there are people who live in
food deserts , and at the same time,this is there, that could be your only
source of food and recognizing thatthere are bigger powers at play around
what we're putting in our bodies.
Yeah, so it started with.
Really going back, , and changingwhat I consume and I was fortunate
(12:23):
at the time to be able to do that.
That is a privilege, right?
And that slowly started to kill my body.
That slowly started, I still had to havesurgery, so didn't stop the surgery, but
all the other things that Were happening.
(12:44):
It stopped that right.
So going back to my ancestral foods.
I think that was the very beginning.
And then I think what the thingsthat really shifted it were number
one when I experienced so muchgrief when my dad passed away.
(13:07):
, and my dad is also.
A survivor of the two thousand andten earthquake that happened in Haiti.
And only a few years after he passed away.
So also me recognizing even thattimeline was like another layer of grief.
(13:31):
My dad was, , just abrilliant mathematician.
He was an artist.
He was also a medicine man.
And I remember during his funeral,there was story after story of all
the good, , that he has done andall the lives that he had touched.
And , I've always been a spiritual person,but it really was almost like a wake
(13:56):
up call for me at the time to embrace.
More parts of me that I had hidden.
So, in my work, I was already supportingpeople in those ways, but that's not
what I was leading with publicly, right?
(14:18):
So, that's that assimilation piece, right?
When, okay, I'm going tohide this part of myself.
I will lead with, I will help youbuild your website, for example, right?
But you're like, wait a minute, you getin there, it's something else, right?
Or it's something deeper, right?
And then within not long aftermy dad passed away, experiencing
(14:45):
in the span of like a few years,experiencing state violence.
Medical violence, , those things broughtme even more further back, , further
into reclaiming who I, I was becauseactually I had to reclaim my body
(15:06):
because that's what these systems want.
Yeah, reclaiming your body.
Oh, that just hit me in my heart becauseso many of us, , when we assimilate,
that's what's, that's one of thefirst thing we give up without knowing
(15:30):
it, you know, without knowing it.
And I also want to name that whenwe assimilate, we are made to feel
so guilty about our ancestral food.
Right?
It smells.
Can't bring it to school.
(15:51):
Yeah, can't bring it to school.
It smells.
Oh, you shouldn't eat this.
For me, for example, one of myancestral foods is rice, white rice.
But how long, , what does , the fitnesswellness industry tell us about it?
Oh, don't eat it.
High in sugar, high in carbohydrates.
(16:13):
And then, and then it's like, uh,okay, if you don't eat it, , then
, what do you turn to, you know,what other foods do you turn to?
And you say this so well, isthat then you start to eat food
that are no good for your body?
Not good for your system.
, for me, when I reclaim that part ofit, eating my ancestral foods again, my
(16:37):
digestive system was so much happier.
Yes.
Yeah.
Because I gave up white rice fora few years and went to quinoa.
, my digestive systemwas like, what is this?
I'm like, Oh, it's fine.
It's fine.
healthier, but my body was so unhappy.
(17:02):
What are some of your ancestryfoods that you love that you enjoy?
Oh, , rice and beans, rice and beans,definitely one of the ancestral foods.
, on the first we, on the 1stof January new year is , the
celebration of the independence.
(17:25):
, Haitian Independence Day and weeat, , everyone eats soup Joumou,
what they call soup Joumou, whichis a form of squash, , that I love.
We make it throughout the year,but it's just like on that day,
, everyone who has that ancestry,that lineage eats that food.
And then depending on the time ofyear, there's like a whole bunch
(17:48):
of different foods that you eatdepending on what time of year.
But it's really seasonal.
Right.
It really also is seasonal.
, , what you eat, but thoseare some of my favorites.
I love soups.
I just had soup actually just before itwasn't that soup, but I had, I love soups.
Um, and the same thing here, that'sthe other part, because when I was
(18:10):
talking about the foods that, , youknow, not wanting to moralize food, but
I'm like, McDonald's is not the sameas like our ancestral foods of like
white rice that they try to demonize.
I know that for years they would saykale, Oh my God, everyone has to eat kale.
(18:33):
And people were switching from eatingcollard greens to eating kale when
collard greens are just as nutritious,
you know, we're always making collardgreens also in the, in the house too.
But it.
It's just as nutritious, but theother part is like what it, the foods
(18:56):
that folks who are Black, Indigenous,and people of color eat, those
are the foods that get demonized.
Those are the foods that aresupposedly always unhealthy, that you
shouldn't eat, , the list goes on.
Well, and then you take intoconsideration eating disorders.
(19:21):
It's quite rampant in the Asianculture, not talked about, but
it is quite rampant, especiallythe young people, and especially
those who have immigrated here.
Because then it's like,Oh, you shouldn't eat this.
And then it becomes a.
a lot of them are like, oh,then they're restricting eating.
(19:42):
You know, that's somethingwe don't think about, right?
Making our food not goodenough by the white culture.
Those of us who are Asian, we look atour food, we're like, oh, I shouldn't
eat this and that, because a lot ofAsian foods are high in carbohydrates.
But what does the white culture tell us?
Carbohydrates are bad for you.
(20:03):
So it creates this dilemmaof, I don't know what to do.
And then you have issues with food.
Yeah.
And then at the same time, I just thinkthere are, you know, Asian cultures and
other cultures around the world wherepeople have the longest life expectancy.
Right.
So it's like, okay, so whyisn't that they're eating
(20:24):
white rice and they're fine.
It's like, it's like, that'snot taken into consideration.
And we also have to go and talkabout, of course, the research bias.
Right.
Oh, yes.
Who, the, who there is any research thatcomes out, it's typically research around
white folks, most likely white male.
(20:45):
If it's not white male, maybe, youknow, there might be a few white
female, but how many of even whatis considered research includes.
Folks of color, right?
Black, indigenous and folks of color.
Not many.
, this was surprising to me, but I guessmaybe I shouldn't be surprised because my
(21:06):
husband, he always said to me, one of myflaws is that I expect the best of people.
So I was having a conversation witha white friend the other day about
how harmful the body mass index is.
The BMI.
And this friend was like, but why?
(21:26):
I'm like, because it was designed.
The research group waswhite men, white people.
It doesn't take into accountfolks of color, you know, and now
most of us know that the BMI is a
it's a horrible tool, you know, butI was still, I was surprised that
(21:48):
a lot of people still don't know.
And then when you go to the, no,and then when you go to the doctor
a person of color and they usethe BMI on you, suddenly you're
obese when you think, yeah, right.
Because according to the BMI, I'm obese.
Right.
And it was like, okay, no, let me justtake that tool throw it out a window.
(22:14):
Wow.
Wow.
Can, I mean, wow.
And then we internalize it and then makedecisions and choices based on that.
And then if we have, if we havechildren, how that creates this
ripple impact within our homes.
(22:35):
Within, you know, other people that wereact, I mean that we interact with if
we have clients, how that creates harm.
And I'm just thinking about this,and I was just thinking about this
actually over the weekend, thatwhen I was pregnant with my son, I
(22:58):
remember going to the, , OB GYN for.
You know, my routine exam and I rememberthe woman who was my doctor at the time
was really obsessed with her weight tothe point where literally the entire
(23:21):
appointment, she was talking about beingon weight watchers in one breath, like
talking about being on weight watchers.
You'd see all like the different.
You know, packages, drinks onher desk and things like that.
And then in the next breath, sheliterally projected that onto me and
(23:44):
was like, Oh my God, you have gainedtoo much weight during the pregnancy.
You have done this,this and that and that.
And then she ordered a series of tests.
By the time that I was leavingthat office, I was in tears.
Because she had been she convincedshe was convinced that I had, um,
(24:07):
what is the, the diabetes gestationaldiabetes, gestational diabetes.
Right.
She was convinced.
And I knew in my body.
I was like, no, I don't.
No, I don't.
However, I went and took the test,even though I was like in tears.
(24:27):
And of course, what did the test show?
I didn't have anything right.
I did not have.
Okay.
And she was shocked.
I ended up leaving that doctor, but thisis some of the violence that happened.
It was an unnecessary test whereI had to drink unnecessary, you
(24:48):
know, chemicals, essentially.
They say it's safe, but I had todrink these unnecessary chemicals
in order to do this test.
Before I became a therapist, I wasin Chinese medicine for 14 years,
so a lot of my practice was treatingfertility and hormones for women and
(25:10):
the number of I don't know if youknow this, so gestational diabetes
is common in Asian women when they'repregnant, just one of those things
is in our genetics, and so many of myclients who came in who are Asian, when
they're pregnant, have had gestationaldiabetes, but same thing as what your
(25:32):
doctor did was to make them feel guilty.
About it.
You had too much sugar.
You got to stop drinking your iced tea.
You got to stop eating rice.
You got to stop eating beans becausethey're all high in sugar, but there was
no recognition that okay, perhaps theseare the things you need to be doing, but
(25:53):
no recognition that it's not your fault.
It's genetics.
And that it's so toxic.
Like you walk out of the appointmentgoing, what did I do wrong?
Yeah.
I mean, I was in tears.
Yeah.
I was in tears and so upset,during that appointment.
(26:14):
And this is this white woman literallyprojecting her own issues, right.
Which of course are from theover culture but given the power
dynamics within that room and thatspace projecting it on to me.
Right.
And that having an impact not only on me,but also on the baby that I'm carrying.
(26:40):
Yeah, I'm so sorry that happened to you.
Oh, yeah.
Yeah, that just makes meangry, you know, and I read.
Somewhere.
I can't remember, but the advicefor folks of color, especially women
(27:03):
of color now is when you go and seea doctor, bring someone else with
you, whatever is for especially forserious things, because then you
have a friend to advocate for you.
In the room, so you don't have to becausethen you don't have to deal with it on
your own, because oftentimes when you gosee the doctor, if it's if you're there
(27:28):
for something, even remotely like serious.
Many people kind of zone out,because it's going to freeze right.
So they are like, if you bringa friend, at least they can
be there and ask questions.
Yeah.
(27:48):
And I think, I think at the timeit just felt out of left field
because I wasn't there alone.
I wasn't.
It just came out of left field.
And I think what happened, weactually both were in shock.
It was like a level of shock.
Um, and I think there alsoneeds to be conversations.
(28:14):
Before going in because you canbring someone and it's like almost
like role playing scenarios to belike, okay, if this comes up, this
is, but then at the time, this was,you know, this is the first time
this is happening to me.
So I didn't know thatthis was going to come up.
(28:34):
Right, so I didn't even have this.
This framework to, to, like, prepare for.
And also, at that time in my life, Iwas disconnected in many sense from
community because I was living on theopposite coast from where I grew up.
(28:57):
So there were, there's so many factors atplay, um, when things like that happen.
And, it's like , that power they puton, you know, if it's a doctor, the white
coat or just like the doctor, there'sa certain power dynamic that happens.
(29:17):
in those rooms.
And I think I'm also thinking about howthose power dynamics also extend into,
child protective services too, right?
Because if a doctor believes that youare potentially harming a fetus or
(29:40):
harming your child, they could report you
The tentacles go really far.
The extra steps.
we have to take to protect ourselves.
Right.
In one of the podcast episode, Iinterviewed one of my teachers from
(30:03):
grad school, and she's, a black womanwho lives in the South and she's been
in the field for a very long time.
And I love talking to her.
One of the things she said waswhen she first started practicing,
she quickly realized thather supervisor who was white.
didn't get it and wanted to callsocial services or the police when
(30:29):
she shared what the mother did or whatthe mother has said to the children.
And then my teacher was like, but that ispart of the culture, for so long, those
of us who, you know, especially if we tryto assimilate, we think, oh, there's only
one way to do things, which is the white.
(30:51):
patriarchal way.
And then as you take a step backand start to reclaim yourself,
you think, no, no, our culturehave our own way of doing things.
Right.
And if, you know, if harm is happening,then as a community, because those of
us who, grew up in collectivist culture,then as a community, let's take a look at
(31:12):
them, not just call in The powers to fixsomething that the community can be there
for each other and look after each other.
And that is, you know, that is racismbecause they wouldn't call CPS, you
know, here, I don't know what theycall it in Canada, but Child Protective
(31:35):
Services that they call here, theywouldn't call that on a white mother.
It's, The dehumanization of folks whoare black and folks who are brown folks
of color folks who, are in differentclasses, right, who are working class.
(31:59):
And who's, it's almost like,it's almost like you shouldn't
even have a child, right, it'salmost like it's almost like that.
Um, that's the sense that I get, butit's, it's that the way the violence
gets perpetrated, right, because I'm justthinking in that situation that I was
(32:20):
in, it can escalate in many ways, right?
There's many ways that it can escalate.
God forbid.
Okay.
You're like, no, I'm not going to take.
I'm not going to do this exam.
I'm not going to do this.
And then it turns out you do that.
I did have gestational diabetes andthen that had an impact on the child.
(32:41):
Like there's a many, many, many avenuesthat I can really spiral out of control.
I'm just thinking about, Iforget her name, but there was
this mother, this black mother.
And her partner whosechild was taken away.
This is like a common story.
I believe they're, they were in Floridaat the time and her son was taken away.
(33:04):
, because of what a doctorbelieved that he was underweight.
Right, because he was underweight.
So these folks who end upbeing agents of the state.
That's really what it is likethey end up being agents of the
state, , who then inflict violence.
(33:28):
Yeah, here it's a lot of talk aboutthe doctors mistreating, especially the
Indigenous folks, , because they have thisassumption that Indigenous folks drinks.
. and do drugs more thanthe other folks of color.
(33:51):
, there was a story a few years ago aboutthis grandfather, I think grandfather and
his granddaughter, who went to the bank.
The bank called the cops on them becausethey assumed that the grandfather was
drunk when he asked for somethingand the staff at the bank just
assumed, made an assumption and callthe police and he got put in jail.
(34:15):
He got arrested and then this whole thingmade it to the news and then the bank had
to apologize for, and then they're like,Oh, we're going to do diversity training.
Yeah.
And I just think about when you eventhink, you know, I also think about
the violence that is perpetrated, um,by bringing in, by bringing in drugs.
(34:45):
Right, substances, alcohol into certaincommunities and then denying health
care, denying education, denying basicrights, like inflicting the trauma
and then bringing in substances thatessentially help people cope and then
(35:10):
being like, wait a minute, wait a minute.
We're going to now stereotype you as.
Okay.
These are the folks whoare quote unquote on drugs.
Right.
And here, you know, the war ondrugs, what was the war on drugs
(35:33):
and, and the roots of that.
It's so violent.
Oh my gosh.
So violent and so heartbreaking becausethen with everything you say, and then
there was like, Oh, you guys are at fault.
You guys don't know what you're doing.
You guys don't, are not doing.
(35:54):
better, but then as to whatyou say, you're not giving them
the resources to do it either.
And if you give them theresources, you want to do, you
want them to do it your way.
Your way doesn't work ina collectivist culture.
(36:15):
That is not often nottaken into consideration.
Yeah, because it's individualist, right?
It's individualist.
It's so disconnected from theearth, like going back to like
it's disconnected from the earth.
And I think the collectivist culturethat we both grew up in, there's
(36:40):
a deep connection to the earth.
There's a deep connection thatthis is the earth that sustains us.
We are in relationship with the earth.
And in my culture, there's alot of connection to the moon
(37:02):
cycle too the lunar calendar.
That's how you plant.
Like my mom, that's how you would plant.
That's how you even like to thepoint of like, that's how you
would even take care of your hair.
Oooh tell me more about that okay,if you want your hair to grow, you
would wait until the new moon to docertain rituals to trim your hair.
(37:26):
You wait until the new moon.
That's one of them.
Mm mm mm.
Uh, and uh, when we were talkingabout food just now in the Chinese
culture is very much this food thatyou eat will help you to do this.
So when you're talking about hair, yeah.
It's like, oh, if you eat this food,it will help your hair become more
(37:46):
luscious and black and you won'tget gray hair as early, you know?
And it's all connected, right?
Like you say.
And then where do we get our food?
We get our food from Mother Earth.
From the rain, the sun, and if we cantap into that, then that connection to
self that we claim ourselves and ourbody is so much not easier but easier.
(38:14):
I think, yeah, it's literallyI was leading a group.
recently, and I was just saying,it's really about one of the
things I've had to say to myselfover the years is that capitalism.
White supremacy cannot have my body.
(38:36):
No more.
Those systems have done a number on mybody and I am at the point for years now,
several years now that I've been able tosay, you can no longer have this body.
This is my body.
(38:58):
This, this is my ancestors body.
Yeah.
And in the Western individualculture, especially for
women, the body is not yours.
That's what so many of us were taught.
(39:18):
It's not yours.
And if we get political, look at what'shappening in the courts, in the States,
they're taking away women's rights tomake decision about their own body.
And that just has generations ofimpact that they're not thinking about.
Yeah, and I think it's really interestingbecause with what has happened recently
(39:44):
with IVF, now you see that some offolks who are on the conservative end
of things, because now that's impactingthem, they're starting to talk about it.
And what really, really is like,I'm like, can you just not get it?
(40:09):
Our freedom is intertwined.
There is no freedomuntil everyone is free.
Yes.
So I can't remember the quote,but that quote that goes like
there essentially, it's like,they'll knock on your door one day.
They're going to come for you one day.
(40:31):
It's going to impact you one day.
It may not be today, But it's coming.
And it's really, it's, it juststems, I think, just from that
individual, like I, it's about me.
And the sad part, I reallydon't think folks who think
(40:53):
like that are really happy.
Right?
I don't think they're happy.
I think there's, I don't even wantto go into it, but Because that
could take an hour we're gonnago down a different rabbit hole.
We'll have you back and go downthat rabbit hole in another episode.
It's like, no, no, it'sgoing to come for you.
(41:18):
It's going to come for you.
And you should have seen that.
So, and the other thing is that, workingwith clients that are also outside of
the United States, the diaspora that'soutside of the United States, who share
with me in places like the Caribbean andother parts of the world, looks to what is
(41:44):
happening in the Western context, the U.
S.
context that impacts their laws.
Right.
That impact, you know, what, whatthey're able to do in their work
as well, in having justice, andequal rights for women, for LGBTQIA
(42:14):
plus folks, , it impacts theirwork too, and their lives too.
And I just think about, just recently Iread about how, in Ghana, how, they're
essentially saying that if you are someonewho's LGBTQIA , you can be put to death.
(42:41):
you can literally be put to death.
But when you look at it deeper, itis, the law is rooted from white,
religious fundamentalists thatare based in the United States.
Like, these are the folks that areactually impacting what is happening
(43:03):
in all the way in Ghana and Africa,
right?
It's so upsetting.
It's so, and yeah, it's reallyupsetting, because it's making Folks
who already are face so much oppressionand marginalization and so many ways,
(43:28):
it's making life harder, it's addinglayers of trauma and I know both of us we
work in helping to hopefully alleviate,maybe even transform shift that, but
it gets really difficult, because.
(43:52):
Of the systems and these laws thatare being put into place that are
making who you love illegal, makingyour body illegal, making it harder
to get access to health care.
Yeah, and a lot of my clients arewomen of color, and I'll say
(44:17):
to them when they bring up thesetopics that you just mentioned,
right, systemic racism, oppression.
And I say to them, I don'thave the magic answer.
I can be here for you.
I can hear, I can witness, I canlisten, and I wish I have the answer.
I wish I can help youto move forward from this.
(44:43):
But the reality is we needto acknowledge that the system
is there and it's harming us.
Because acknowledgement is apart of healing and then let's
look at other things that we canhelp you to heal because that
isn't going to change tomorrow.
All this systemic oppression,systemic racism, capitalism, you
(45:06):
know, white supremacy, that'snot going to change tomorrow.
I also don't know what is goingto change in our lifetime.
You and I, we do the work and weuplift the voices of those in need.
Then we look at other areas and goes,okay, how, well, how can I help?
(45:27):
What else can I do?
, I would love to talk about, yourglobal community, Embodied Black Girls.
Yeah.
It's such a sweet space.
To be in because it's a place whereI feel not only, you know, folks
(45:49):
share that it's a place where they'reable to land, but it's a place I'm
able to land over and over again.
And, , and it just reminds me ofthe important of having spaces
that are for black women and femmesand women and femmes of color.
And the conversations that we'reable to have, it's again, it's
(46:13):
not about having all the answers.
And I know for some people, they're like,I need an answer, please, you must give
me an answer, because I'm in so much pain.
And there has to be ananswer to this pain.
And like you, I don'tnecessarily have all the answers.
(46:39):
However, I feel that the answerscan emerge from being in spaces
where we're able to be in our fullhumanity, the healing can emerge and
being in spaces where we can be inour full humanity that we don't have
(47:00):
to be in a state of hyper vigilance.
,and constantly scanning and lookingfor threat that we can breathe, right?
We can just take a moment and breathe.
And that's not to saythat,, it's perfect, right?
(47:24):
I've been fortunate in the sense oflike there hasn't been these conflicts
and these things that have happened.
However, I do want to name that beingin community for many of us, or trying
to be in community, trying to be,or practicing, I like thinking of it
as practicing, can be really hard.
(47:45):
Right, can be really hard because Ithink on a, on one level is that back to.
assimilation, we've been taughtour bodies, we have this embodied
response of when, for example, whenblack folks are together, oh my
god, this is, it's dangerous, right?
(48:09):
It's dangerous because literallywhat would happen, what has
happened historically, Is that thosespaces have been monitored those
spaces by the government, right?
Those spaces have been infiltrated.
So, there can be some something withinpeople's system and also people have
(48:33):
experienced interpersonal harm, right?
Been like, oh, it's another person.
Another black person that hurt me, right?
So there has been alsolayers of interpersonal harm.
And at the same time.
(48:54):
I really do believe it's in beingtogether in these types of spaces that
we can find healing, but also access.
Leadership and hopefully collectivelybegin to create something different right
(49:19):
to create to impact even the systemsbecause I have, you know, I work with
folks to who work within the systemsright who, who have organizations who.
So they're doing work so withinthem within the system so if we can.
(49:39):
If that change can happen within,of course, the body and then within
other bodies, how that can have a.
A ripple of impact, and also recognizingit's not happening fast enough.
It feels like it's nothappening fast enough.
It's happening.
(50:01):
That's beautiful.
I'm so glad you're doing this work.
If you do have a magic wand?
Mm mm How would you want the worldto look like for your children?
(50:22):
Oh,
the first thing that, when you saidthat if you had a magic wand and I was
like, I do have a magic wand, . Ooh.
I was like, I do have a magic wand.
And that magic wand Ibelieve is our bodies.
(50:43):
But to answer your question, becauseit's such a juicy question, I
would want them to have an embodiedsense of freedom of liberation.
I'm like thinking about my littleone to really feel, to know where
he comes from, and who he comesfrom, and what he comes from.
(51:07):
And to have a firm understandingof the present moment, whatever
that present moment is at the time.
And to also be connected to thefuture, what is to come, and to
be connected to community, to beconnected to the earth, to be connected
(51:29):
to the cosmos, to the higher, thehigher self, to God, um, to really
be able to be in a relational space.
If the world can like snap ourfingers, get on the same page.
Let's get into deep relationshipwith one another relationship that
(51:52):
is honoring that is reverential thatrecognizes the sacredness of life.
My little one said to me theother day, everyone has a mother.
So everyone, um, like, trying tosay, like, everyone has a mother and
therefore is loved unconditionallybecause they have a mother.
(52:17):
Like there's someonewho loves them so much.
And I know that's not theexperience for necessarily everyone.
, But I like to believe thatwe all come from love, right?
Regardless of the circumstancesof how we were born.
(52:37):
And what that may look likefor, for all of us, but at
the source, we come from love.
We come from that seed oflife wanting to just burst.
Forward
life, wanting to like firstforward to spring into being,
(52:58):
and that's what we come from.
And I think that's love.
That's beautiful.
As you're sharing that, I'm like, forthose who feels like they didn't come
from love, if, they didn't have a greatchildhood, but to be able to take that,
(53:19):
what you're just sharing goes, maybelove doesn't mean your parents, you
know, love from Spirit, from universe.
From Mother Earth, that maybe canhelp with the healing process.
Next question is for fun.
If you could spend a day with someone,deceased or alive, who would it be?
(53:45):
Oh my gosh, who would it be?
I was thinking.
First, I was thinking Maya Angelouor Toni Morrison, who I have
both of them I've like adoredsince I was like a little girl.
Um, I would totally want to spendthe day with either one of them.
(54:07):
Yeah., well, let's, let's say youcould spend a day with two of them.
Is there like a burningquestion you would ask them?
The question that's coming likethat's, I guess, formulating is
a question around how do you rootto freedom in spite of the system?
(54:38):
How do you root?
How, you know, just there.
I would just love to hear theirindividual stories of like,
how, how do you root to freedom?
How do you root to lovein spite of or despite?
Because there's so muchhappening in the world right now.
(55:01):
And, one of the things that hasreally been, , just on my heart.
is despite the genocide that'shappening of the Palestinian
(55:22):
people, seeing folks get married,
I watched a wedding and I was like,wow, to me, that's, that's resistance,
but it's deeper than resistance becauseI feel like for, , for folks of color,
(55:44):
for indigenous folks, for black folks.
Our lives are more than just resistance.
And I think it goes back to, it's likesomething deeper wants to burst forward.
So I don't know if that answeredyour question, but I think it did.
(56:07):
It's a beautiful answer and thereminder to when you're doing, social
justice work, resistance work, thatyou don't forget to also hold joy.
So you allow yourself to experience joy.
(56:27):
I mean Go ahead.
Go ahead.
That's the last thing I'll say.
And like, I just think that is how forso many of us, our ancestors survived.
I remember growing up, so much laughter.
I mean, there's so muchlaughter in our house.
It was just like, literally youwould think you're at a comedy show.
(56:50):
I mean, the other thing, mydad was like the funniest.
One of the funniest people andcould tell the most amazing stories.
And you think you're at a comedyshow, so much laughter all
the time, it's interesting.
I think it's with my family.
We were so that one of the generationaltrauma with my family and I think
(57:16):
for some immigrants is we wereso caught up in the suffering.
You must work hard, you must suffer.
And because you suffer, thenyou will have great achievement.
So, not knowing how to hold joy andpain at the same time, that is one
(57:37):
of my biggest lesson to rememberthat on the bad days you can also see
joy, and I love that in your family.
you all embrace that.
Yeah.
Do you miss your dad's laughter.
I do, but I can like, I can literallygo back to it and just like recall it.
(58:02):
I can recall it really easily.
But I do miss him, likein the physical form.
I miss him, and I was just thinkingthe other day oh my god I wish I could.
Give him a hug and justfeel his hug, right?
,Thank you, my friend.
(58:22):
Oh, thank you so much.
This was so, so sweet.
Thank you for having me for inviting me.
Thank you.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
This week's advice from yourChinese Auntie, Yiyi, that's me.
Is if you're an immigrant like myself and.
(58:46):
You realize that.
You have given up a lot ofyour culture in order to fit in.
It's not too late.
To start.
And embrace your culture.
Start with.
Food.
What did your ancestors eat?
Try that again.
(59:08):
Maybe think about what yourgrandparents or great-grandparents.
Used to do.
Maybe they read poetry.
That is something that.
You can start.
Dabbing into.
Whatever it is.
If you are constantly trying to fitin and find a sense of belonging.
(59:29):
I hope you reach out tomembers of your community.
And find a sense of home there.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
(59:51):
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapetersen.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
(01:00:12):
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
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