Quest, Self-Initiation & Egypt with Lara Therrien Boulos

My guest today is my dear friend, Lara Therrien Boulos. I met Lara through our dear friend Carmen Spagnola, as we were both Questers and Carmen's students. This episode discusses Lara's trip to Egypt, capitalism, Quest and the Return, and self-initiation. We talk about how the pandemic is like an initiation and that we are now in the Return. It will all make sense when you listen to this episode.

At the end of the episode, I discuss self-initiation and, yes, as always, advice from your Chinese Auntie. 

For those of you who are curious, The Numinious Quest was a self-guided solo wilderness retreat. 

Bio:

Lara Therrien Boulos is a community planner, facilitator, gardener, writer, witch, and artist of Egyptian and French-Canadian ancestry. She weaves all these threads of her life through her creative and spiritual practices and her animist orientation toward the world. She's also a cat lover and a Virgo.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
don't you think COVID shutdown

(00:03):
was a bit like Quest, and then now we'relike in this long, drawn out return.
Whoa.
Ooh, I just got shiversthinking about that.
The pandemic as initiation isvery, very powerful, I think,
as a perspective to consider.

(00:24):
Yeah, you're smart.
Right?
Not just a pretty face, pretty smart too.
Mm hmm.
I think you're so right, and kind ofto what I was saying earlier, like,
ah, it kind of feels like we shat thebed on it a little bit, collectively.
Oh!
The return is not great.

(00:45):
No, no, look at what'sgoing on in the world.
And I have, and still have, Iwill say, like, a little bit of a
hang up about learning about Egyptfrom, like, white people or like
English and French speaking people.
I'm like, what are you filtering out asyou interpret this culture that I, again,

(01:13):
like, I'm not sure I can trust you.
And this is not part of ourculture and our traditions when
in fact it was, so there's thisreally kind of like multilayered.
impacts of colonization, where firstsomeone from outside came in and
said, what you're doing is not okay.
And then a couple generations later,that's been totally internalized by the

(01:37):
people who Are now oppressing their ownpeople for doing something that is like,
maybe more culturally relevant than,you know, being just like straight.
Hi, everyone.
Welcome to conversations with yourChinese Aunty Yiyi, that's me.
In this episode, I talkedto my dear friend Lara.

(02:00):
Lara and I met through our other deal.
friend Carmen.
as we were both questersand Carmen's students.
This episode discussesLara's trip to Egypt.
Capitalism, quest and the return.
And self initiation.
We talk about how thepandemic is like an initiation

(02:23):
and we are now in the return.
Don Don Don.
It will all make sense when you listento this episode, at the end of the
episode, I talk about self initiationa bit more and of course, advice from
your Chinese auntie, is there too

(02:47):
Hello, Lara.
Hi, Patricia.
Welcome.
Thank you so much.
Please introduce yourself.
Great.
Okay.
My name is Lara Therrien Boulos.
I use she, her pronouns.
I'm a cis queer woman living onxʷməθkwəy̓əm (Musqueam), Skwxwú7mesh
(Squamish), and Səl̓ílwətaʔ/Selilwitulh(Tsleil-Waututh) lands.

(03:07):
More recently known asNorth Vancouver, BC, Canada.
And this is also where I grew upor spent most of my childhood.
And recently moved back hereinto my childhood home with my
partner and we're living with mymom, which has been really cool.
I am Egyptian and FrenchCanadian in terms of my ancestry.

(03:29):
I went to Egypt for the first timejust over a year ago, which has
been a big part of my current life.
Journey, I guess, of finallygetting to visit that place.
And what else?
I'm a devoted older sibling.
I have like, big sister energy.

(03:50):
Which is like a big part also ofsome of the things I'm unlearning.
The like, eldest daughter,big sister stuff.
I am a partner.
I am a friend.
I'm an animist.
I'm an animist.
A bunch of other things, I'msure, but I think those are

(04:10):
probably, oh, I'm an artist.
That's something that I've morerecently started claiming and
not having as much fear around.
Yeah, just on learning a lotof kind of capitalist bullshit
around like what makes an artist.
So I'm an artist.
I'm a writer, creative.

(04:32):
person, bridge builder and like kindof mouthy, critical person as well.
Okay, to be fair, I didn'ttell you this before.
Try not to swear because if not, Ihave to make the episode explicit.

(04:53):
Noted.
Did I just swear?
I don't think I did.
No, I said try not to swear.
Okay.
I was like, what did I just say, even?
I don't know.
Because our other friend was on beforeyou, and Were they dropping some Just one.
And I decided to keep itbecause it was kind of spicy.

(05:13):
That's fun.
Okay.
Well, I will keep that in mind.
We'll see how spicy our conversation gets.
Yeah.
Maybe some swears will be warranted.
If it's warranted I'lljust list it as explicit.
It's all good with me.
Right on.
So you and I have known eachother for seven years maybe?

(05:33):
I want to say I met Carmen in 2018,so it would have been about six years.
I would love to hear about yourEgyptian side, because we never
really talked much about that.
Yeah, great.
Did you grow up having that influence?
It was part of my upbringing,mostly through food.

(05:58):
My dad is Egyptian, and he came herewhen he was 18, in the late 60s.
He followed his first brother, hisoldest brother, who had immigrated a
year prior, and then his other brotherand his parents came in the 70s.
So his whole nuclear family was inCanada and I grew up, you know, going
to visit them and My grandparents,my grandmother, mostly, because my

(06:21):
grandfather passed when I was quite young.
But they all lived out in easternCanada, and we were kind of the
only ones here in Vancouver, sothere was a little bit of distance.
And then, of course, like, my parentswere in an intercultural, interracial
marriage, and my mom was very, veryadamant about wanting to speak French

(06:42):
to us and share our francophone culture,which was wonderful, and we still speak
French together, and we're, we're fluent,which is such a gift, and she really
wanted my dad to speak Arabic to mysibling and me and he really resisted,
I think I think, like many immigrants,I mean, every immigrant has a different
story, of course, but my dad's was I thinkone of buying into assimilating as the

(07:09):
way to integrate into this new homeland.
And he really turned his back, I think,on his birth country when he left, for a
variety of very understandable reasons.
And so he didn't really want to teach usArabic and so language was not a part of
our upbringing, or like, Egyptian culture.
I guess Arabic language was not a partof our bringing, but he loves to cook

(07:31):
and so I grew up eating quite a, quitea lot of Egyptian food, I would say and
and then he would kind of tell us storiesa little bit about his childhood, like
we would ask him to tell us about Egypt,and I don't really remember the things
Things that he would tell us but I doremember once that he like told me a

(07:51):
bedtime story about being on a camel inthe desert or something and like maybe
the camel kind of getting out of controlor I don't really know and then I asked
him to tell me that story again sometimelater and He was like, what story?
And it turned out thathe hadn't made it up.
And so I think that I grew up a littlebit also maybe not totally trusting

(08:13):
the things that he would tell us aboutEgypt because of that one experience
that really stuck where I was like, Idon't know if I can trust I think I don't
know if I can trust you on these things.
So, you have started, , thelast few years really connecting

(08:35):
with that side of the ancestry.
And then you went to Egypt last year.
What have you learnedthat stood out to you?
Yeah.
And maybe, and maybe what have youincorporated into your day to day life?
Hmm.
Hmm.
Yeah, those are great questions.

(08:56):
I feel like in the overall journeyof my identity development, like
when I think about things I was apretty like kind of feisty teen.
I was pretty feministat a pretty early age.
But I would say it was mostlylike second wave feminist, like
not so intersectional at first.
And then that kind of moved intoDeveloping an environmentally

(09:20):
focused consciousness.
And then in my early 20s was when Ilearned about colonization in so called
Canada and the way that Canada has treatedthe Indigenous peoples on these lands.
And that really led me down a lot ofinterrogation around the settler part
of my history and ancestry, like theFrench settler part of my ancestry,

(09:43):
and I did a bunch of ancestral work andfound, you know, ancestors that go as
far back as 10 or 11 generations in termsof like really being part of the early
colonization project of these lands.
And it took me a long time to make spacefor the exploration of my Egyptian ness.

(10:04):
I think also as a light skinned mixedperson with white skin privilege I
don't think I was giving myself thepermission to be mixed, you know?
And I think also because a lot of mychildhood you know, I grew up in upper
middle class highly educated family.
It's like, kind of like capital L,liberal kind of vibes, you know, of

(10:28):
like diversity, but not necessarilygoing deeper than that, you know,
multiculturalism as the like, let's eateach other's foods, but not really like
understand each other's struggles andeach other's stories on a deeper level.
And so I think that that kind of.
is a part of the reason that it tookme until my late 20s to even give
myself the permission to explore theparts of me that are not part of the

(10:53):
dominant cultures in these lands.
So that's like a very long windedkind of, tracing of part of the
journey of, of how I got to now.
And in terms of like that actual processof exploring what it is to be a mixed
person, multiracial person, and beingEgyptian especially, I think for me there

(11:18):
were two big things that gave me a lot of.
Maybe imposter syndrome, orlike challenging towards myself
of like feeling Egyptian.
One of them is the language piece,like just not being able to engage with
my, one of my birth cultures directly.

(11:40):
And I think also because Egypt, And,like, ancient Egypt is, like, so
exotified and fetishized by people.
Everyone has an idea, right,of what that culture is.
And I have, and still have, Iwill say, like, a little bit of a
hang up about learning about Egyptfrom, like, white people or like

(12:02):
English and French speaking people.
I'm like, what are you filtering out asyou interpret this culture that I, again,
like, I'm not sure I can trust you.
Interesting.
A lot of like distrust kind ofcoming up in my narrative so far.
I'm just noticing like,don't trust my dad.
Don't trust, you know, likewhite folks writing about Egypt.

(12:24):
And so there was always this kindof thing of like, well, how am I
going to, like, how can I do this?
Right.
Like I can't read or write.
Or understand Arabic, and so Idon't have access to the wealth of
knowledge that is, like, being writtenabout by Egyptians about Egypt.
Not that that's uncomplicatedeither, because of Arabization

(12:46):
and, and like a bunch of otherthings that we could talk about.
But anyways, that was the first bighang up was like language barrier
and, and the impact of having othercultures talking about my birth culture.
And then I think the second big thingwas that I had never been, and there,

(13:08):
it was for such a like, really forthe first 33 years of my life, it
was Such a huge wound, like, so muchgrief there, because again, like, part
of my mother's project when we weregrowing up was to try to convince my
dad to take us together, you know?
And it just never happened.

(13:28):
There was always, like, areason not to or whatever.
He wasn't in a place wherethat's something he wanted to do.
And then as I became an adult, Ithink I was still holding on to this
desire to go with him, specifically.
And so that was, like, kindof a self imposed barrier.
And then I got to a point where I waslike, I'm an adult, I could just go.

(13:49):
But then I thought, well, maybeI'll learn Arabic and then I'll go.
And so then it was also this other selfimposed barrier where I was like, well,
I have to speak the language before I go.
And then in late 2022, my sibling andI, I had taken some time off work.
I was, I was pretty burnt out and Iwas taking some extended time off.

(14:11):
And my sibling was kind of inbetween jobs and projects and things.
And literally on the very same day,I texted them, like they, they had
asked me, can we have a phone call?
And I wasn't available.
But then I texted them andI was like, should we just
go to Egypt like next month?
You know?
And they texted me back and they werelike, that's literally why I wanted

(14:31):
to talk to you on the phone today.
They were having the same idea.
And it was like the stars just aligned.
The timing was right.
We were both just kind of like.
Let's go.
. But we were like, this is,like, the time is now, you know?
Like, why wait?
Let's do it.
And so I think we booked a ticketto go four weeks later, five weeks

(14:53):
later, and it was really yeah, like itreally feels like it was like so many
things aligning to make it possible.
I guess the other thing I'll also saytoo, is that there had been a couple of
other times leading up to that momentwhere I had made a plan to go maybe
like six or nine months later, andthen something would always come up.
And so.

(15:14):
I think that there was something about,like, this short window of time between
deciding and going that made it possible.
I think part of the reality, too, withthat part of the world, actually, is
that it's kind of like that, like,stuff happens there all the time.
I mean, we're witnessing a genocidehappening in Palestine now as we speak.

(15:38):
There's so much conflict that iscentered in my homelands , and the
neighboring regions and places.
And so it can actuallybe hard to plan to go.
And so I think that those weresome of the many reasons that
made it challenging to get there.
And then we went and leading up to going,I was really Like I was working in therapy

(16:03):
, and really reflecting on how I wanted togo there and I was really keen to do my
best not to project or expect anything.
Just knowing that it would be soeasy to be disappointed or confused.
And so I think I really did apretty good job, actually, of going
in, just being open to whateverit might feel like to be there.

(16:27):
But it was such an incredibleexperience, like, stepping off the
plane and into the airport and outinto the, like, warm, desert night air.
And, like, I felt my body recognizing.
The place.
And that was reallypowerful and unexpected.
And then the rest of the trip, likeit, that continued to feel that way.

(16:51):
And, many people would go upto either my sibling or myself
and be like, Are you from here?
, that was really affirming too,you know, being recognized by
people as being of that place.
So there were a couple of reallymeaningful experiences there.
And I think really what I'veincorporated as I come, as I've come

(17:14):
back in the last year is that like,I don't have that hangup anymore.
I don't have the hangup of like,am I really Egyptian if I've
never been, or I don't speak thelanguage or like, blah, blah, blah.
Like all of that really is somethingthat I was able to shed when I
went and I feel much more centered.
and clear in who I am.

(17:35):
And I feel like that is carryinginto all of the parts of my life in
really beautiful ways, subtle andnot so subtle, but really welcome.
Have you, no, let me rephrase this.
The, when you say being recognized, whenpeople came up to you, that does something

(18:01):
to your nervous system because when you'rebiracial and you don't know, having that
recognition, it's, I would think it would,it says a lot to you going, ah, boom.

(18:21):
Absolutely.
I used to, I think like in my pre tripand pre, like all of this kind of, these
parts of my journey that I just shared,like before that, I would jokingly
sometimes self identify as beige.
Like I would kind of like, youknow, find ways to make light
of the ambiguity of my identity.

(18:44):
And I think because it's hard for peopleto read me here, you know, like I could be
way, I could be so many different things.
People guess all sorts of thingsand don't usually end up with
Egyptian as, as part of theirguesses or assumptions, but who I am.
And so, yeah, I think reallygoing there and being read in

(19:05):
that way was, Super affirming.
Have you felt that anywhere else?
You've traveled a bit.
I have not really I would say like Ithink maybe part of it is because of
the places that I've been like I haven'tbeen anywhere else in the SWANA region

(19:30):
like at Southwest Asia, North Africanecessarily where, you know, could
be potentially perceived as a distantrelative or cousin, you know, I think
I've had moments of feeling quite a highlevel of comfort and enjoyment being
in certain places that were new to me.
Like I remember feeling that in Florencein Italy, and I remember feeling

(19:50):
that in Istanbul in Turkey and maybeone or two other places, but yeah.
Not in the same way.
Not at all in the same way.
For me, it was Spain.
Oh, I would love to know more.
So my niece was baptized in Spain.
That's a whole different story,but she was baptized in Spain.

(20:14):
So we went to Spain first to Barcelonabecause my niece has two godmothers, me
one and then my sister's best friend Eva.
And they decided tobaptize my niece in Spain.
So everybody went to Spain,and it was a great trip.
But I step out of the van in Barcelona,looked at the Colosseum, and at

(20:38):
that time they were renovating it.
So there was only the front walland it was that sense of, I'm here,
I've been here before, and I'm home.
And I was like, huh,
so interesting, you know, and Idon't have, I don't have a lot

(21:02):
of places where I feel like that.
With your trip, so my sense, I'venever been, but my father has
always told me that his perceptionof this is a very holy land.

(21:23):
You got to respect the landwhen you're there, you see,
because there's a lot of history.
What did you find when you were there?
It's such a fascinating place.
And I think, I think that's such aninteresting perspective from your dad,
actually, because I feel like there,you can, I, I definitely felt the, the

(21:49):
depth of the history of that place.
Like, I think it's inevitable whenit's so visible in some ways, right,
to, to really feel it and see it.
And at the same time, I feel likethere are other places in the
world where I've felt that awe.
That comes with that holiness andit, and sometimes it's just in
the natural world and has nothingto do with human made things.

(22:12):
So I think that's animportant aspect as well.
But in Egypt specifically, I mean, Iremember just like being with the Nile
or on the Nile and just being like.
This river is so mythical, likeit, it's so, and it is truly like
the source of life for this, youknow, otherwise deserted place.

(22:36):
And it's so incredible to seejust like a couple of kilometers
on either side of the Nile.
There's green and there's, you know,growth and irrigated fields and
fruit trees and like it's quite lush.
And then it's just like desert.
Like the line is so long.
So stark so that was fascinating.
And then these beautiful old ancienttemples superimposed with many also

(23:02):
beautiful mosques and churches.
I think it does make for a multilayered very spiritually potent place.
And it's also really interestingbecause of course, like Egypt now
is a place that's changed a lot,but Egypt now is a really different
place than it was, you know, 60 yearsago when my dad left and and before.

(23:28):
And it is also a place where thereis you know, dominant religion,
like the dominant religion of Islam.
Part of the reason my family leftis because we're Coptic Egyptian,
which is the Christianity of Egypt.
And so there's a good amount ofdiscrimination and, and less, you know,
economic and educational opportunityin, in many ways for Christians.

(23:51):
And, and then it's kind of like, , there'sChristians, there's Muslim folks, and then
there's like nothing else, supposedly.
Right, it's like quite binary interms of like what religions are
perceived to be in the space.
Although we did have a tour guidewho shared with us that some people

(24:11):
are doing like I guess maybe modernworship of ancient Egyptian deities.
But on your ID card as an Egyptian,it says what your religion is.
And, like, ancient Egyptianspirituality is not one of the choices.
So you might have, like, someone who'sMuslim on the card, but who might be

(24:31):
incorporating, spiritual practices fromancient Egypt but you would never know
it, or, you know, they were, the tourguide was saying, like, often people
will only find that out about a relativewhen they're going through their things
after they've passed and they find,like, a statue of, an old Egyptian god,
or, other evidence that they were alsoperhaps , yeah, incorporating other

(24:52):
spiritual practices and deities into theirlives, which I think is so fascinating.
What is the purpose of puttingthe religion on the ID card?
I don't know.
, if I were to guess, and I say this,you know, with not a lot of context or
knowledge, because Egypt is an Islamicrepublic, it is a country that is not

(25:14):
secular, I think it's probably hassomething to do with that another form
of social stratification or, or controlor like putting people in boxes, I think,
perhaps, that, you know, we see in all, inall sorts of places, in all sorts of ways.

(25:34):
So even though you tried to go inwith no expectations, were there
a few things that were shocking?
Hmm.
Yeah, there were a coupleof things that surprised me.
One being that Like, as much asI was familiar with Egyptian food
from growing up with some of it,we ate a bunch of other things

(25:55):
that were also not as familiar.
And I think part of it actually was thata lot of the things that my dad made for
us growing up was more home food, andbecause we were eating in restaurants
a lot, we were maybe being exposed to.
Not necessarily the kinds of thingsthat people eat at home, but the things
that they actually would make theeffort to go out and enjoy together.
So that was really cool.

(26:16):
I think the other thing that wasvery obvious that I've experienced
in other places as well, but, thatfelt quite present was just like
immediately being coded as a womanor straight woman with gender being
very binary in that society as well.
Like, it was really interesting to be,like, queer people having like a really

(26:39):
Binary experience of gender, and notbeing read in that way that like, I would
say is easier to be read as queer here.
It's like very interesting.
Did you meet other queerpeople when you were there?
Or because it is an Islamicstate that, It's hidden,
I think there's definitely queercommunity and we were not in places

(27:02):
or with people that would havegiven us access to those places.
Yeah.
Which, which makes sense, because , Iwould suspect it isn't safe to Yeah,
it's not, yeah, it's not the safest.
And I think people are finding theirway and they're finding their community,
but there's it's just different.
It might just be quieter and less visiblethan perhaps in other parts of the world,

(27:25):
but it doesn't mean that it's not there.
And, and I think that there'ssome things that are changing, but
it's not linear, that's for sure.
But, you know, I will say like somethingthat was so interesting too, is like,
Speaking of ancient Egyptian gods, the godof the Nile is was like described to us

(27:46):
again by tour guides as I think a man withwomen's feature, like a man with breasts.
That's a trans person, myfriends, that is a trans god.
And then like, how incrediblethat, , the source of life, the
Nile, the god of the Nile is.

(28:07):
a gender non conforming deity.
But that's not how they're talkedabout in a binary society, right?
And so, like, all of thesethings were just so fascinating.
There's also, a very well knownpharaoh Hatshepsut, who was again,
scare quotes, a woman who woremen's clothing when she ruled Egypt.

(28:32):
I was like, okay, ormaybe she was a trans man.
I'm like, the most powerfulperson in that, like, in her
culture, like ruling the culture.
But potentially, yeah, like not awoman, you know, wearing men's clothes.
So I think it's really interestingto, yeah, to think about that.

(28:54):
And I think that there's a lotof nuances that, again, like
people who live in more binary.
Spaces might just miss or interpretcompletely differently, but that yeah,
like queer folks might see differently.
You know, it's interesting becauseI've always thought about this, right?
Because in Chinese history, you go backthousands of years with the emperors and

(29:19):
the eunuchs and the empresses, right?
And I've always thought whether theyjust, they don't, they didn't look at
it as, you know, Different as we look atit now in our modern society, you know,
whether at that time it was like, okay.

(29:41):
We see you for who you are.
There's no need to differentiate you.
I wonder whether it's a thing that wedo now in this modern day where we try
to make people different and stand out.
Absolutely.
I think so.
I think about you know, the Huge varietyof genders that existed and continue to

(30:02):
exist on these lands on this continentprior to colonization and just like
the incredible damage that Christianitycaused to indigenous societies,
including demonizing anything that wasnot a binary, you know, man or woman.
gender outlawing certain practicesthat may have been held by gender non

(30:26):
conforming people who I think in manysocieties are often medicine people
or spiritual liminal folks, right?
I know that happened in all overAfrica as well, again with the same
kind of European colonization, right?
So if we even just look at the last500 ish years of the world's patterns

(30:47):
and like the amount of European andChristian influence the globe over.
We have a situation today where alot of places where homosexuality
or queerness was criminalizedor outlawed by colonizers.
Those laws still exist now.
And as queer people from those culturesare reclaiming their genders and

(31:11):
their practices, their own peopleare saying, Oh, stop being so modern.
You're just trying to be like, you know,white queers in the, in the rest of the
world, like you're trying to be Western.
And this is not part of ourculture and our traditions when
in fact it was, so there's thisreally kind of like multilayered.

(31:32):
impacts of colonization, where firstsomeone from outside came in and
said, what you're doing is not okay.
And then a couple generations later,that's been totally internalized by the
people who Are now oppressing their ownpeople for doing something that is like,
maybe more culturally relevant than,you know, being just like straight.

(31:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, it's, that's awhole another topic because you
look at countries like China.
You know, not widely acceptedto be queer, non binary.
And then you look at Malaysia isan Islamic state, there's a death
sentence for being queer publicly.
Yeah, I've always just wondered.

(32:20):
What humans in the last hundredsof years colonization has
done to all these cultures.
And I think like, you know, colonization,no matter who's doing it, colonization
and imperialism is ultimately abouta homogenization process, right?

(32:41):
It's like, if everyone is the same,it's easier for us to control people.
It's easier for us to Punishpeople who step out of line because
the box is quite clear and it'snarrowly focused and defined.
And so that makes it easy to thenstay in control and have that yeah,
just have that be easier to do.

(33:04):
Bummer.
Wow, what a downer.
How did we get here so fast?
Also the irony is you tryto fit everybody into a box.
But
people stand out.
, yeah, absolutely.
And , even going back to my ownpersonal story of like, maybe

(33:24):
growing up more in the box, right?
It's been this process of at leasta decade now of, looking at the
box and deciding if I want tobe in the box and kind of seeing
stuff outside of it and being like,hey, that's actually kind of cool.
maybe this applies to me.
Maybe I want to go and explore thisand giving myself the permission to
do that and being around people whoare also doing that, like you, right?

(33:46):
I look at the people who are in mylife now, and I think all of us are
pretty outside of those boxes, andthat's part of why they're in my life.
And it, there's just so much more thatwe can do outside of those constraints,
and it can just take a long time for anyof us to trust that that's true, and to

(34:08):
maybe calm the fear that comes with theperceived safety of conforming, you know?
Yeah, speaking for myself as animmigrant, I tried to fit into
the box when I came here, andfor , probably like 20 years.
But then very soon, and a lot ofimmigrants that I've talked to, very

(34:30):
soon you realize, We just don't fit.
Then, so you might as welljust embrace the differences.
and goes, this is who I am.
I've, and I've spoken to somegirlfriends who grew up here too.
And, they try for years, evengrowing up here, going to a school
that was predominantly white.

(34:52):
They're like, I'm either too tall.
My hair's too black or the food thatmy mom gave me to take to school smell.
And all the kids make fun of me.
But then you try to dress the wayThat your peers, your white peers
dress, and you still don't fit in.
Totally.
You trick yourself into thinking thatyou fit in, but you don't fit in.

(35:15):
Yeah, and then as you startdeconstructing, like, why am I even
trying to fit in in the first place?
Then I think that's where a lotof the veil kind of comes down.
It also feels right now to me likewe're in this moment of like, a lot of
clarity and like awakening happeningfor a lot of people around like just how

(35:36):
much we have been manipulated and liedto and like invited into this delusion
of capitalism and white supremacy andcolonial patriarchal life and Again,
like I think that what's happening inPalestine is like really shifting a lot

(35:57):
for a lot of people and opening theireyes to, okay, well, if the narrative
about Israel that I've been fed for solong is so incredibly false, because
now I'm learning, people are learningabout the things that mainstream media.
Never shared now that you know, Israelisdon't control the narrative, social media

(36:19):
has brought a lot of direct informationforward into the light, so if, we
were wrong about that, how many thingsare we wrong about and like, oh, look
at what's happening over here with,you know, colonization of indigenous
peoples and Like, so many struggles thathave been ongoing since, you know, the
first settlers set foot on these lands,really, like, let's draw some parallels.

(36:41):
Let's understand how these are partof, , a worldwide mechanism of power
and control and accumulation of wealthfor a very, very few number of people.
I think there was like this like a glimmerat the beginning of the pandemic as well
when there were lockdowns and like theworld kept turning and we were like, wait,
so we don't have to work all the time.

(37:04):
I feel like we've lost that alittle bit, which is unfortunate
because I was really excited.
When that started to happen, Iwas like, yes, general strike.
Let's go.
I mean, I still feel that way.
Like, why are we?
You know, why are we, , selling oursouls to, to the capitalist gods?
And it's like, yeah, we've been told somany things about how life is and what

(37:25):
we should do and what the meaning is,and I think some of that is crumbling.
I think the edges of the box arebecoming clearer, and I think fewer
and fewer people want to live in it.
But I'm curious to see.
What we can do to really,like, transform things.
I'm so ready for it.
I've been ready.

(37:47):
I've been ready too, but Iwould be curious to see whether
it happens in our lifetime,
yeah.
I think there's also the danger of, like,My perception is that we're quite clear on
what we're fighting against, and there'smaybe less clarity about what we're

(38:08):
working towards building, and I thinkthat that's something that I've certainly
felt, like, in the activism communitiesthat I've been a part of, like, we're
so good at tearing stuff down, I mean,I even called myself, like, a mouthy,
critical person in my intro, like, I cantell you what's wrong, But I don't know
that we've totally dialed into what wedo want, and I think there are lots of

(38:30):
incredible examples, and again, I wouldsay it's like mostly racialized people,
queer people, disabled people, who arelike holding up the vision for the future
that we can all be part of, and that,you know, can make room for all of us.
But I think we're I think we run the riskof Being too good at tearing ourselves

(38:52):
down from within communities where, intheory, and I wish in more practice,
like, we could come together and embracethe differences Of what we're doing.
I guess it's like there's a thing that'shappening in activist communities here
anyways and like this region or this partof the world where like there's also an

(39:14):
expectation of homogeneity, which kindof is going against what we think.
Say we want because there's this likenonsense homogenous, you know Like
hegemonic thing of like everyone hasto be the same in Empire like not
everyone needs to be the same in therevolution and We're not actually making

(39:36):
enough sense space for that to be true.
If we're expecting everyone in therevolution to think exactly the same
way and to do exactly the same thingand to be like perfectly impeccable in
their word and use the right languageand like all we end up doing is fighting
with each other over our tactics andhow we talk about stuff and like all
of those things and we're not comingtogether, then the empire has a really

(39:58):
good chance of just kind of like.
Just holding on to power, or evenif we make gains in the revolution,
but we haven't figured out, like,what we're working towards, then I
think that's where it can get cutdown and compromised, you know?
I also think we don't, and I say we asin people who are doing social justice

(40:18):
works and activism, I also thinkpart of the reason we don't know what
we're striving for is because we'restill living in this capitalist state.
Society, right?
Where the rule makers are stillthese white men, traditionally.

(40:41):
So in order to, to have the insightto build to what we want, we almost
need to look at, if we take outthe system, we need almost, I think
we almost need to aim to buildsomething new and better, you know?
Yeah.

(41:01):
And the sad thing is, We have lost withthe pandemic, a lot of elders who would
have been able to give us the insight.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I've been thinking about, you know,part of the reason that you and I met was

(41:25):
because we were both At a place in ourspiritual lives and development where we
were seeking guidance and found a placeand teachers and opportunity to do that.
And when I turned 30, Idecided to self initiate.
Into adulthood, because I was like,graduating from high school isn't

(41:48):
enough of an initiation into, like, therituals that we have, again, in, like,
mainstream society are, like, not it.
It's not enough.
I feel like I need something else toreally understand how to step into
yeah, just, like, living in a good way.
And so, And so I did that throughQuest, which is partly how we met
and you know, sat on the land forfour days and then sat in community

(42:14):
with other people who've done that.
And we've stayed connected and continue tobe in each other's lives as part of that
continued initiation journey, I think.
And so something that I've been thinkingabout since I did that process and like
as it continues to unfold is like, whatis it to step into being an elder and

(42:35):
like training yourself to become an elder?
Because I also, like, I do stillhave some elders in my life.
And I don't say this with alot of love, but like, I don't
necessarily want to be like them.
It's a little harsh, but like,you know, I know I, I have tons
of stuff to learn from them.

(42:55):
And sometimes it's learning how notto do something, which is valuable.
But again, it doesn't help us withthe like, well, what are we building?
What are the things that we do wantto like, either preserve from the past
and keep alive or bring back from aprevious time where like our old, old
ancestors were maybe doing some thingsthat we can learn from and then, yeah,

(43:21):
but then absolutely, you're right.
Like the, the ancestors or theelders that are now ancestors that
we've lost in the last five years.
Like, I feel like there'sa huge depth of loss there.
Absolutely.
I've had a few elders pass inthe last few years and I've had.
A lot of time to think about deathand endings and I think we're not

(43:46):
great in our society at endings.
In a society where literally it'slike forever growth is the thing and
there's no space for death and endings,there's obviously a connection there.
But I also have been having a lotof conversations recently about.
You know, when you don't take thatlinear approach and you look at

(44:07):
cycles, death is also birth endingsalso make space for beginnings.
And so, yeah, I think that's alsoreally important to remember.
, I remember growing up in Singapore,a lot of the elders will talk
about sometimes in families.

(44:30):
an elder would die, and thensoon after a baby will be born.
So it's that soul leaving makingspace and for the new soul to come in.
Yeah, that's so beautiful.
That actually happened with me , myEgyptian grandfather passed like
two months after I was born.

(44:51):
And similarly for my sibling ourgrandmother passed four months
before my sibling was born.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hmm.
And it happened recently.
My aunt passed away in the falland my cousin's baby was born
like six months before that.

(45:11):
I've always wondered about that.
That's so beautiful that there's yeah,these like stories or these perspectives
in your culture that really look at that.
Since you brought up quest.
So for the listeners quest is wedid it with our friend and teacher
Carmen and it's four days, fournights solo time on the mountain a

(45:38):
hundred hours fasting, but you candrink water and you're on your own.
And Carmen and Ruben are at base camp.
In case you need anything.
Yeah, and I think I would also add that, all of that is held also in relationship
with the, people from the nation onwhose land that is which is the Secwepemc

(46:04):
people and Elder Norman Retaskit inparticular, who's just the sweetest,
most wonderful elder who grounds the workin the land when we arrive and do our
preparations before the solo time begins.
And I know that he held us andholds questers in his heart and mind

(46:26):
the whole time we're up there too.
Yeah.
What did he say?
He said.
I think first quest, hesay don't die or something?
I can't remember.
Our group are like, it's so funny.
It's funny to hear Carmen tell this story.
She'll be like, you know, and then wespent all morning with Elder Norman
on our first day there and we're likeasking questions and, you know, I had

(46:48):
brought him a gift and I'd like reallythought about how I wanted to show up
and initiate this relationship with him.
So that's really important for me as well.
I think especially, Recognizingthat all of us who are doing this
work are settlers or were settlers.
And so really just takingthat seriously too.
And so, you know, I like gave him mygift and we sat and listened to all

(47:08):
of the things that he had to share.
And I asked him at the end of themorning, , is there anything that
you really want us to know, orlike, you know, to, to do that is.
important when we're up onthis mountain on your land.
And he just goes, don'tdo anything stupid.
Like such a great reminder oflike how practical that is.

(47:34):
You know, it's like,just don't do anything.
Don't do anything stupid.
Don't do anything reckless.
But it's true, you know, becauselike, we are there together.
You're not the only person who's upthere, and so you do have a responsibility
to the collective of people thatare, you know, fasting, as you are.
Even if you don't see them atall in the four days and nights
that you're doing your solo work.

(47:56):
But yeah, it was just so funny.
He's What a wonderful man.
He is so great.
Don't die and don't be stupid.
I think my quest, the firstquest, I think he said don't die.
He might have said don't do anythingstupid too and then he added don't die.
I can't remember.
So funny.
We should also add that, yes, there's,what, four days of preparation before,

(48:19):
and then three days of processing after?
Yeah, I think that's right.
Three days of,, celebrating, integrating,and then getting ready for the return
to the rest of the world, whichhonestly is the actual quest, I think.
I think that is the mostshocking part, don't you think?
You know, it's really interesting.
I had an experience when I was 15.

(48:40):
I went to this camp that was likealmost a month long and it was it was, I
jokingly refer to it as like my leftisteducation, but it was like a quite left
leaning kind of group of facilitators,bringing a bunch of youth from all over
the world together to learn from oneanother and to build solidarity and build
a more radical politic, I would say.

(49:04):
And it was like such an interestingplace and still have some friends
from there that I stay in touchwith, which is such a gift.
But one of the huge things was thatit was also the first place where I
felt like I was being treated as anadult, as a teen which was really
important to me as like a pretty smart,precocious, you know, teenager who like
obviously thought she knew everything.

(49:24):
Now, the older I get, the more I realize Idon't know anything, but I remember coming
home from that, like the return from thatexperience of like being in this alternate
reality really for a month with peers thatwere like super interesting, adults who
were empowering and who heard me and, andcoming home and like, you know, my family

(49:49):
treating me like nothing had changed.
It was so alienating.
It was.
And I do think that the return fromQuest, like I draw parallels between those
experiences for myself of like, You goaway and you can do your best to prepare
your people for how you might be whenyou come back without knowing how you're

(50:12):
going to be when you come back, but like,imagining that it might be different.
And not everyone's going to get that.
And the, you know, the rest of theworld has continued while like, I
don't know, time stopped for me onthe mountain a little bit, you know?
So it's like a veryinteresting and challenging.
Thing to go.

(50:32):
And I think like the main thing is that.
Communities that had rites of passageand sent off their young people,
to go and do their work when thoseyoung people came back, they were
incorporated into a community whereevery single adult had done that.
And we don't get thatexperience nowadays here, right?

(50:56):
Even if we do our own self initiationthrough something like Quest.
So it's a very differentexperience and it's very different.
really freaking hard.
We're lucky because what Carmen did wasfor a year, you get regular check ins.
So you have that community.
And it's interesting that hearing you talkabout the experience when you were 15,

(51:16):
because for me, it felt like that whenI came back from yoga teacher training,
because I was gone for two months.
And I came back and, but I got thebest advice because there were a
few teachers, but one of the men,he said to me and to the group, he

(51:40):
said on day one, he said, don't thinkbecause you've changed in these.
two months that everybody elsewould have changed, would see
things your way when you get back.
And I held on to that.
I remember when I came back, Ihad tea with one of my girlfriends

(52:02):
and she was also my mentor.
And I was just saying to her, Isaid, It's so weird and so shocking
that you're now looking at thingsso differently, but everybody else
is still doing the same thing.
Totally.
But as you were talking aboutthat too, I was thinking,

(52:24):
don't you think COVID shutdown
was a bit like Quest, and then now we'relike in this long, drawn out return.
Whoa.
Ooh, I just got shiversthinking about that.
The pandemic as initiation isvery, very powerful, I think,
as a perspective to consider.

(52:48):
Yeah, you're smart.
Right?
Not just a pretty face, pretty smart too.
Mm hmm.
I think you're so right, and kind ofto what I was saying earlier, like,
ah, it kind of feels like we shat thebed on it a little bit, collectively.
Oh!
The return is not great.

(53:09):
No, no, look at what'sgoing on in the world.
The genocide.
What's going on in Iran, Congo, Sudan.
Yeah.
Haiti.
Everywhere.
And you know, it was happening before.
It was.
Like, I think that's also important too.
It's true.
But I think it's like theinterconnectedness of all of that I think
is what's becoming clearer to more people.

(53:30):
Yes.
Yeah, I do think there is a bit ofa collective awakening, but yeah,
I was hopeful in a way that thepandemic might support us to move
in a different direction after thatexperience than what we actually have.
What do you think the next roundof initiation is going to be now?

(53:52):
I'm asking you questions, but I haveyour podcast interview now Patricia
So I became a yoga teacher when I was 30.
And just in the industry, there's a lot ofpeople who are quite spiritual, some not,

(54:17):
but I hung out with a lot of them who werevery spiritual, very you know, they would
talk about death, they would talk aboutpast life aggressions, things like that.
And there was a woman, she, wewere good friends for a while,
and she talked about this.

(54:38):
This is 20 years ago, Shethought at that time, a lot of
us will go through an awakening,
and we would shed whatno longer works for us.
I don't know if that's happeningas fast as we would like it to be.

(54:59):
Because, you know, you talk aboutego capitalism, the need for
people to, to work, I'm alsothe realist in the thing that
Mother Nature is angry with usenough that one day she might
just go, okay, we're done.

(55:20):
Let's just start over.
Yeah, yeah, I think you're right.
I think it makes me thinkof just like generally.
The principles around likehow to manage collapse.
Of anything, you know, likeif something is ending.
It's so much easier in the long runto accept it, and go with it, and move

(55:41):
with it, and adapt with it, than tofight it, and try to push against it.
Which like, I'm not saying as a way ofbeing like, Climate change is happening
anyway, so you may as well just No.
You know, do whatever, like that'sreally not what I'm trying to say but
you know, instead of like holding onto the collective delusion that we
can keep doing everything that we'vebeen doing that's gotten us to this

(56:03):
point, let's get clear on where weare and let's adapt and let's change.
And I think you're right, like theadaptation is very slow, and so it, it
will probably just be more painful forthose of us who you know, live, live into
those times, and we're already in them.
I think there's also, like, it'simportant to speak to the privilege

(56:25):
that we have of talking about this.
Like, I think a lot about people who are,you know, You know, in those places that
we mentioned earlier who are just gettingon with the business of survival and who
don't have the luxury to sit down and talkabout, you know, like, how or why or when
yeah, I think there's, it's important forthose of us who have the space to talk

(56:47):
about it to also just remember that wealso need to be able to translate that
into action and I think that's one of thehardest things for those of us who can
talk about it, because we can just stayin that talking place for the, our entire
lives, right, without doing necessarytransformation to move into a different

(57:07):
way of being that these moments require.
Which I think, you know, to answeryour question too, is that awakening
piece that I talked about too, is Ithink where we got stuck is that a lot
of people, and you and I have talkedabout this in the spiritual community,

(57:29):
it's, I'm just talking, but I'm notdoing anything because I'm not, because
their perception is I am not willingto give up the comforts of what I
have in order to make a difference.
Now, I'm not saying everybody'slike that, but I'm saying that
a majority of them, or there's abig number that like that, right?

(57:50):
So, to your point is like, if youdon't go with the flow and change,
things are going to get hard.
And this also applies to life, right?
you and I know this, we've been throughbig changes is when the universe or spirit
comes and go . Things are not working.
Let's do something about it.

(58:11):
And most of us as human beingswill be like, no, no, I'm okay.
It's comfortable.
Let me just keep doing this.
And then, you know, spiritcomes again and goes, hello?
Hello there.
Remember when you were like,I don't want to change?
Well, let me tell you, now you have to.
Now you have to, but somepeople still don't change.

(58:34):
Yeah.
Some people still keepdoing what they're doing.
Because I don't know.
I was talking to, to one of mygirlfriends about this yesterday.
Why is it some people like you and I, whenspirit comes calling, yes, we might be
stubborn the first time, maybe the secondtime, third time, you're like, right.

(58:58):
And in my case, when spirit cameknocking the third time it was,
I had shingles when I was 27, youknow, my relationship broke up.
I had to change career, butsome people will be like,
yeah, no, I'll just keep going.
Same, same.
So now we're talking about what isthe difference that some people would

(59:20):
listen to spirit and why some wouldn't.
Yeah.
It's such a good question.
I feel, you know, one of thethings that I distinctly remember.
About my return from Quest was when Igathered my witnesses, so this is like
another aspect in addition to stayingin connection with the people that you

(59:46):
go up on the mountain with for the yearfollowing that and having each other to
kind of turn to and track how we're doing.
Another aspect was that before yougo on Quest, you choose some people
who you will tell what you're doing.
Happened when you come back and theywill reflect things back to you and
they will help you carry the, your storyand help you track how you're doing.

(01:00:07):
And so when I did that one of my witnessesafter I shared what I had experienced on
the mountain just spoke to how courageous.
I was to go and just like stare atmyself, you know, completely naked and
be like, all right, what's going on here?
Like, let's, let's take stock andlet's decide where we're going.

(01:00:29):
And I do think it's true.
Like there is a type of couragethat is required to face the
reality of who we are and how wemight need to change and transform.
And it's scary.
I think it's, it's tooscary for a lot of people.
Yeah.
Do you remember for thefour days on the mountain?

(01:00:51):
Yeah.
What was the most scary?
I was so good.
I was shocked at how, at how okay Iwas actually like, And I mean, like,
we, we've talked about this before,our different experiences of the
mountain, like Patricia's quest, therewas like snow the first year, and it

(01:01:13):
was like absolutely horrible weather.
My group had idyllic sunshinefor all four days, except for
like one little bit of rain.
And I know I was drizzling when we wentup too, but, yeah, you know what, it
was horrible the day that we actuallywent up to the mountain to find our
spots, but once we were all on there.
On the actual fasting time.

(01:01:35):
It was like so gorgeousand yeah, very sweet.
I'm not bitter at all.
Yeah, I'm sure you're not.
But you know, there's a part of me becauseI went to some like I went in 2019.
It was like the year before the pandemic.
And I sometimes wonder if partof the reason the mountain.

(01:01:56):
Was as loving as she was to us wasbecause she knew what was coming and
it was gonna be bleak She's like, youknow what I'm gonna I'm gonna make
this slightly less painful on theweather side because you're gonna need
all of the Strength and the optimismthat you can muster to get through

(01:02:16):
the next year Yeah, like the pandemichappened during the year of our return.
Yeah gross
I'm not bitter that you hadgreat weather and I had to thread
through snow up to my knees.
Eee.
Yeah.

(01:02:38):
I think the things that I carry themost and like remember the most clearly
from my time on the mountain are justthe feeling of being so deeply embedded
in the natural web of the world.
And you know, this.
idea that you go up there and thatyou're alone just completely, like,

(01:03:01):
breaking down through the experience ofbeing and feeling, like, so, connected.
Breaking down any of those kinds ofbinaries that we live with a lot around,
like, being separate from nature,like, people outside of the natural
world, like, it's just so not true.

(01:03:23):
And that was really affirming andbeautiful, and I think comes with
responsibilities that I stillcarry and take very seriously.
Yeah, that was anotherplace I felt at home.
Yeah.
But I hated the nighttime when I had to go pee.
Ohhh.

(01:03:43):
Yeah, that's fair.
I imagined that the wolves were there.
You know the first night I was fallingasleep and I heard a voice and it
sounded like like I interpreted thisperson's voice to be a matriarch or like
a woman, femme, ancestor of the land.

(01:04:05):
And all they said was.
And it was so interesting.
It was like, Oh, are you like witnessingme like being here and arriving here
and doing, you know, my work to likeset up my little spot and like, the
ways that I'm working to be respectfulof this place and you're just kind
of like, huh, it was so interesting.

(01:04:28):
She was perfectly.
Really?
Hey.
I'm just kidding.
Don't judge me.
I'm just teasing you.
My first quest, that wasthe Deer Mother showed up.
Literally, right there.
And they're giant on the mountains.

(01:04:49):
Nobody tells you.
Or nobody told me.
The deer on the mountain are hugecompared to the deer we see in the city.
I love it.
Thick.
Just chunky.
sexy deer up there.
I love it.
She showed up and then shestared at me for a long time.

(01:05:11):
You're on my land.
Why are you on my land?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I deeply wish for and reallybelieve that everyone deserves and
would benefit from these kinds ofexperiences and to be welcomed back

(01:05:33):
into communities where we have donethat and we're holding each other in.
accountability for what it is thatwe learned when we were in those
in between liminal, you know,spiritually very porous, times so
that we apply those things to ourlives in ways that are in service to

(01:05:56):
justice and liberation for everyone.
And not just like a personal everythingthat I'm thinking of that I could
say right now is really crass, butyou know, like not just a personal
like victory, not an individualisticpursuit to go and do that.
For your own self benefit, likeit's gotta be for other people.
It has to be for Your community, it hasto be for other than human kin, it has to

(01:06:18):
be done with yeah, like that clarity andthat responsibility, but I, I, I so deeply
wish that that was possible for all of us.
That's certainly something thatI would like to bring into the
reality of that future that we'retalking about, like, building, like,
what does it What does it involve?
I hope it involves that.

(01:06:39):
Initiations, right?
We're lacking that.
We're lacking initiations.
So yeah, I see that in, in a lot of youngpeople that I work with, you know, it's
like a bit like what you said just now,it's like, okay, I finished high school.
I'm now thrown into the world.
What do I do with myself?

(01:07:00):
I'm supposed to know how to survive.
And if there's no rituals orinitiations or elders to guide you.
You feel so lost for so long.
Couple more questions for you.
Let's do it.
I thought this would be fun to ask you.

(01:07:21):
If you could have tea, coffee, ora meal with someone dead or alive,
let's say dead, who would you pick?
Oh, such a good question.
I'm thinking of Like, my uncle whopassed a few years ago is this, like,
really, really proud Egyptian man.
Really proud Coptic man, Ishould say, like, specifically.

(01:07:44):
You'd always say that Copts arethe best because we're the direct
descendants of ancient Egyptians.
Because, of course, when Christians cameto spread the word it was ancient Egyptian
polytheistic culture that was in Egypt.
And then when Muslims came, like,seven centuries after that, people

(01:08:05):
who didn't convert to Islam tendedto have the material resources to
basically be able to pay to keep their.
religion.
Anyways, so he would always talk abouthow our ancestors in ancient Egypt were
probably like a head scribe or something.
Just like, who knows, you know?
But like, the storyline is like, justcoming up for me as you ask this question.

(01:08:27):
I would love to talk to, like,the head of the library of
Alexandria in ancient Egypt.
I think that would be so, so cool.
Oh, yeah, that's a great answer.
Right?
Great question.
Some tea, some food.
Yeah, show me some papyrus scrolls.

(01:08:49):
What's going on over here?
Like, what is all this beautifulknowledge that you've learned and
like amassed in this place that,yeah, was lost when it burned?
But, I think that would be so, so awesome.
I think also one of the firstuniversities that I went to This
was started by a woman in either, Ithink it was ancient Egypt as well.
Maybe her.

(01:09:09):
She'd be cool to talk to.
I don't remember her name.
What advice do you havefor your younger self?
Hmm.
Trust your intuition.
Don't gaslight yourself.
Yeah.

(01:09:29):
What you know is in what you feeland sense is, is probably correct
and it's okay to trust that.
Beautiful.
And I just want to note, it'sflurries outside as we're talking
about still on the mountains.

(01:09:51):
Oh no, it's come back for you.
Hauntingly.
Thank you very much.
This was so lovely.
I didn't know what to expectother than a great conversation,
and we totally had that.
I'm so happy and honored thatyou asked me to chat, and I hope

(01:10:15):
people enjoy listening to us.
I'm sure they will.
My intention for thepodcast to have a chat.
Yeah.
Because we don't do this enough.
Yeah, I love that.
I've loved all the episodesI've listened to so far.
Thank you.
And yeah, I'm so gratefulyou're in my life.

(01:10:37):
You're a great friend.
I try my best.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
I love that.
We talked about initiation.
Initiation is a right of passage,marking entrance into society.

(01:10:57):
It can also be.
A formal admission into adulthood.
And many people, especially youngpeople feel lost as they have not
been initiated into adulthood.
Imagine this you're told whatto do as a kid, what to wear.
And then as a teenager, youhave a bit more freedom.
Hopefully.

(01:11:18):
And if all goes as planned, most ofyou will go to university or college.
But many will feel lost.
What do you mean now I need tolearn to take care of myself.
Nobody has ever taught me that.
No one is going to tell me what to do.
Hence this week advice from Yiyi, yourChinese auntie, me, is that if you can.

(01:11:40):
Self initiate or find a pogramin your ancestral lineage to
initiate you into adulthood.
For goodness sake, don't appropriateother cultures to do this.
Like don't do Ayahuasca ifit's not in your lineage.
Ah, that could be a whole podcast episode.
Also many of you have asked ifI will do a few episodes where I

(01:12:03):
share my life story, I will soon.
I promise, be good to yourself and others.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.

(01:12:25):
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapetersen.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.