My guest is Roxanne Francis, the award-winning CEO of Francis psychotherapy and consulting services. She runs a busy group practice and is a keynote speaker, leadership coach, and corporate consultant who addresses topics related to women's issues, such as race and equity, mental health, parenting, and wellness at work. She is also the founder of The Therapist's Lounge, which helps private practice social workers and psychotherapists meet their needs for community wellness and business support.
In this episode, Roxanne and I discuss how to navigate life as a person of colour, how accent affects how we are viewed, and how we scan for safety. We also talk about how to navigate social media, especially for youths.
Bio: Roxanne Francis is an adjunct professor at the School of Social Work at the University of Toronto, and in 2020, she was recognized as one of Canada’s 100 Black Women to Watch. She is a sought-after podcast guest who shares her mental health expertise in print and online publications like Essence Magazine and Today’s Parent Magazine, as well as multiple local and national media outlets, including CTV, CBC News, and Breakfast Television.
You can follow Roxanne on social media and her website.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
She put her hand on mine and shesaid, Roxanne, you don't have to
(00:02):
censor yourself when you talk with me.
, And that gave me such a, , such anexhale, such a relief, such a deep breath.
Yeah.
Right.
To know that I could just speakfreely because many of us pause,
we do the mental gymnastics
(00:24):
. I remember years ago, a 15 year old was brought into my practice
and her mother brought her in andsaid, she's really depressed.
We don't know what's going on.
Can you talk to her afterabout the third session?
Because they take a while after about thethird session, we began to realize that
she was struggling significantly withher self esteem because of social media.
(00:47):
Welcome to conversations withyour Chinese auntie podcast.
Your host, Patricia Petersen hasconversations with BIPOC folks in this
podcast, we give voice to people ofcolor and learn more about their lives.
Join your Chinese auntie, asshe has Compelling conversations
with fascinating people.
Without any further ado, let'sdive headfirst into this episode.
(01:21):
Hello everybody today, myguest is Roxanne Francis.
Roxanne is an award winning CEO of Francispsychotherapy and consulting services.
She runs a busy group practice andis a keynote speaker leadership coach
and corporate consultant who addressedtopics related to women's issues.
(01:42):
Raise equity, mental health,parenting, and wellness at work.
She is also the founder of TheTherapist's Lounge, which helps
private practice social workers andpsychotherapists meet their needs for
community wellness and business support.
You can read more aboutRoxanne on the show notes.
(02:03):
I met Roxanne on social media.
Instagram In this episode, Roxanne andI talk about youth and social media,
how to navigate social media safely.
And we also talk aboutscanning for safety.
Now a lot of us who identify as BIPOC.
(02:26):
We scan for safety.
. A lot of us don't even know what doing it.
For example, scanning for safety looklike when you go into a coffee shop.
You sit with your back against the wall.
So that you can see what's going on.
I'll talk about this a little bitmore at the end of the episode.
(02:52):
Good morning, Roxanne.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How are you?
How was your weekend?
I'm good.
The weekend went byreally, really quickly.
. How was the weekend?
It was good.
Hanging out with the family,got some errands done.
, I have two little boys and sothere is always a lot of laundry.
(03:13):
I have a puppy, so that'snot a good comparison.
That's okay.
Every time we go to the forest,it's like four towels later.
Yeah, it's okay.
My kids are always asking.
I think it's a matter oftime before we get a dog.
My kids are always asking for apuppy and I'm just like I don't know.
It just feels like another littleperson, little life who will never
(03:37):
be able to take care of themselves,at least with the children.
I hope that eventually they'llbe able to wipe their own bums.
Roxanne, please introduce yourself.
How you identify, where you'refrom, anything you want to
share with the listeners.
Yeah, for sure.
So, my name is Roxanne Francis.
, I go by, she, her pronouns.
(04:00):
I have two boys.
They are 12 and nine years old.
I have been married for.
Gosh.
21 years.
And I, I live in Toronto, Canada.
I'm a Canadian citizen but I wasborn and raised in Kingston, Jamaica,
and came to this country over, Iwant to say, what year are we in?
(04:27):
2024.
I came to this country 25 years ago.
Wow.
And, when I started university inthe Caribbean, and I was actually
studying the sciences, moved to Canada,took a break from school because
integration will do that to you, kindof turned everything on its head.
And when I decided to go back toschool, I decided that I wanted
to go to school for social work.
(04:49):
So I did that, entered the workforce,and started working with children.
And, that sort of snowballed into workingwith families, their parents, and, , that
segwayed into counseling slash therapy.
And fast forward a few years laterI worked for a number of agencies
(05:13):
and then eventually I left agencyand decided to work for myself.
And so now I am a therapistand I have a group practice.
And there are a handful of us on ourteam, and we serve clients in person
in the GTA or the general Toronto,the greater Toronto area and virtually
(05:36):
all across the province of Ontario.
From the knowledge that I have fromdoing this work, I've also had the
opportunity to do some work in the media.
So from time to time, I've beenin the media talking about mental
health, providing mental healthsuggestions, tips, resources.
And I also, I have a really greatpassion about mental wellness at work.
(05:58):
And so I do some consulting withorganizations, different companies.
I go in and we talkabout wellness at work.
I do a lot of work with HR departmentsto talk about their HR policies.
I do a lot of.
Work around being black at work as well.
Again, I work with HR or peoplewho head up DE& I departments
(06:21):
around supporting their staff.
I find that there's a lot ofvery, very solid policies.
At work around sexual harassment,but there is not, there are
not as many policies at workaround racial discrimination.
And so just talking to HR companies,sorry, HR departments around solidifying
(06:43):
and supporting their staff in that way.
What else do I do?
I also support therapists in thefield, so I am a certified clinical
supervisor, but I also help.
People who are starting their own practiceand also people who have already started
their own practice who need support withhelping their practice grow or they want
(07:06):
to they want to start a group practice.
They want to go from being justthem to being a larger group.
Because I find that our universitiesand our schools do great work in terms
of helping you learn how to treat theclients who come in the door, but they
(07:28):
don't do such a great job with, okay,here's how you start a therapy practice.
Here is how you create the business.
This is how you decide how much to charge.
This is what you do when someoneknows shows like all of these things
are things that people learn on thefly, and I think it causes people to
be really afraid of, I don't know ifI should stop my practice because.
(07:49):
I don't know what to do.
And so, I, I support cliniciansas they try to start their
practice or expand or grow.
That's so great because Ididn't learn that at all.
I was in Chinese medicine for over10 years before I became a therapist.
It was the same thing.
(08:10):
Nobody teaches you how to run a business.
Do you advertise?
Do you not advertise?
Do you need a website?
Things like that.
And networking, that was a huge thing.
Yes.
Are you in the Toronto area?
No, I'm in Vancouver.
I was actually in Vancouver last year.
(08:30):
June I had a meeting with, I'm notsure if you're familiar with, Jane App.
Yes.
That helped.
Yeah.
So I was at their headquarterslast June for a meeting.
It was in North Vancouver,lovely, lovely city.
Hmm.
Please let me know the nexttime you come out here.
Yeah, I will.
Yeah.
(08:51):
I am curious with yourexperience in mental health.
Has there been anything that youhad to unlearn or you had to tweak.
Working with clients ortalking to the HR department.
What have I had to unlearn?
I think I've had to understand thatthere are more as a woman of color,
(09:18):
that there are more people, quoteunquote, on my side than, you know.
Society would sort of have you thinkI went to what I would consider a
very progressive university for myundergrad, and there was a lot of, a
lot of discussion about anti oppressionanti racism, a lot of learning around
(09:43):
you know, Indigenous ways of knowing.
And I think I left undergrad withthis very you know, everybody's
out to get you kind of idea, right?
And the interesting thing is that I don'tthink I went into school with that, right?
But we did, there was so much Ithink because the The majority of
(10:07):
the students in the undergraduateprogram were not persons of color.
It was, it was almost as though theuniversity was very, was very keen on
ensuring that they realize that theylive from a place of privilege, that
oppression was real in our society,that you know, there are many things
(10:28):
that are unfair for persons of color.
And I think I left that with, you know,You know, sort of fist in the air,
kind of, you know, and while, whilethere are, uh, while the challenges are
real, I've had to realize that thereare more allies in our society than
(10:49):
that I gave sort of credit for, right?
And and that we, the experience of life,while persons of color definitely have
significant challenges in this country.
The experience of life isvery much a human experience.
And so, you know, in my practice, mostof the clinicians are clinicians who
(11:16):
are racialized, but I don't want to be,I don't want my practice to be seen as.
The practice that only sees this kind ofpeople are only sees that kind of people.
I want to be able to I wantto be able to serve everybody.
And I want all kinds of people to becomfortable coming into our services.
(11:39):
I want everyone to feel seen.
I want everyone to feelvalued and to feel heard.
Because we all have our challenges,, whether or not there are challenges
related to race or related to, youknow, colonization or oppression
we all have our challenges.
And so when a couple comes into ourpractice and says, we're struggling
(12:01):
with communication, I want us to beable to support them and serve them
regardless of regardless of background.
And granted, some people will feelmore comfortable talking to therapists.
From their background wherethey don't have to explain.
This is, this is what my parents are like.
My parents don't know how to apologize.
(12:23):
Or, you know, while people mightfeel more comfortable, you know,
going to work with people who arefrom their background or culture.
And that's important too.
I just want people tofeel feel comfortable.
That was a long answer.
I love it.
And I get what you'resaying, how it works out, I
(12:44):
attract a lot of Asian clients.
Yes.
Yeah.
, and a lot of them will come and theysay, I don't have to explain racism.
I don't have to.
If I say to you, tiger mom, you get it.
And somatically my nervoussystem gets that you get it.
So I don't have to explain it.
(13:04):
And I love that you brought upthe ally bit because so many of
us, especially women of color,walk around scanning for safety.
Yes.
And we don't, a lot of usdon't even know we're doing it
because it's so innate in us.
(13:26):
I'm curious with your experience, likethe ally bit for your personal experience
or with clients, it's like, how doyou encourage one to find the allies?
Or do you think they just show up?
Well, the reason that we scan isbecause sometimes we can't tell,
right, if people are allies.
(13:48):
I think that when you are in a placewhere you start to feel uncomfortable
talking about your the challenges thatyou live with, you know, then you know
that you are not in a space of allyship.
I was talking to someone once,a friend of mine, she's white.
(14:10):
And we were talking and I, I was tryingto explain something about my lived
experience and I stopped talking becauseI was trying to figure out how to.
Say it in a way that was palatableand she could see me doing the mental
gymnastics and she stopped me.
She put her hand on mine and shesaid, Roxanne, you don't have to
(14:32):
censor yourself when you talk with me.
, And that gave me such a, , such anexhale, such a relief, such a deep breath.
Yeah.
Right.
To know that I could just speak freelybecause many of us pause, we do the
mental gymnastics and this person.
How do I really hold whatit is that I have to say?
(14:54):
How do I say it without makingthem feel offended or right?
And so when you are in spaces whereyou feel like you can speak clearly,
where you are, you are almost giventhis this permission without even them
having to say the words, then you knowthat you're in the presence of an ally.
(15:15):
I was in a webinar theother day and the presenter.
She was a black woman and shesaid racialized people are some
of the most what does she say?
Are some of the most, , functioninganxious people out there because
they are constantly, to your point,scanning, constantly scanning for safety.
(15:36):
That is the reality of an anxious person.
And even if you don't identify as anxious.
, we are constantly checking,you know, is this safe?
Is it okay if I say this?
Will they be mad if I say that?
Will they understand if Ishow up in this way, right?
(15:56):
Am I going to have toexplain myself if I do that?
And that work is exhausting.
Yeah, and I was talkingto one of my friends.
So we both immigrated from Singapore.
And even though we were brought uplearning English, so in Singapore's
education system is you must learnEnglish and your mother tongue.
(16:19):
Yeah.
And even though we both learnedEnglish growing up, when we came
here, they said that they hadto change the way they speak.
Wow.
Yeah.
With English, right?
Even something as simple, butnot simple as the terms you use.
Garbage versus rubbish.
(16:41):
Yes.
And constantly thinking,is my English good enough?
Good enough.
I need to change my grammar.
I need to change the way Ispeak in order to fit in.
And yeah, we don't.
A lot of us do it without even knowingbecause we are told we're not good
(17:03):
enough for the Western society.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's challenging, as you talkabout English, I was presenting a workshop
the other day to some hiring managers ata company and we were talking about what
I like to call the politics of accent.
(17:25):
And, I was saying to them, whyis it that accents from a certain
part of the world are seen as.
You know, not good enough,not smart enough, not, not,
not, not polished enough.
Well, accents from a differentpart of the world are seen as
classy, polished, rich, sexy.
, I said to them, if someone is talkingto you, and they have an accent from
(17:49):
another country that speaks a differentlanguage, you need to understand
that they're thinking in one languageand speaking to you in another.
So, if all you have is English,they've already passed you in terms
of, , qualifications in certain ways, youknow, and then I said to them, also, the
other thing you need to consider is thatEnglish is not a measure of intelligence.
(18:12):
It's a language, right?
So many times people think thatif not only, not only English, but
English in a particular accent, right?
Because so many people who weren'tborn in a Western country, I grew up
learning and speaking English, but ifyou don't sound Western, then there's all
(18:36):
kinds of judgments being placed on you.
And that's not fair because peoplealready have to go through too much
garbage to settle in this country.
Right?
I could talk about this for a day.
We should just talk about this.
I love this.
So in my twenties, I was an aerobics.
(18:56):
teacher a lot of us did that.
That's amazing.
And I was auditioning for one ofthe bigger chains here and , the
director didn't come into the room.
She sat outside.
We've never met before.
And we, when we came out, she lookedat me, she's like, Oh, I thought
you're British or Australian orSouth African with your accent.
(19:21):
And I was like, Huh.
And she placed an importance on itbecause she liked these three accents.
Did I get the job?
No, because she took one look at me.
I didn't get the job.
But I would have gotten the jobif I didn't look the way I look.
(19:44):
But she liked the accent.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
The exotic sounding.
Yeah.
But the racism is real.
It's real.
When you , did the presentation,did they receive it well?
I think there was, it was no shadeto white people and their allies, but
it was a room full of white people,and at the beginning, there was a
(20:07):
little bit of quiet, very quiet.
Right.
And so what I did was I ended up givingsome scenarios and I broke them up
into groups to discuss the scenariosand then we brought it together.
And in the discussion as adiscussion started to unfold.
You could see that people's, they, theyrelaxed a little bit, at the start of
(20:31):
the presentation, you could almost seem.
There was this, almost as thoughthey were taking offense, like,
what is she talking about?
I'm not racist, right?
Yeah.
But, you know, just having theconversations and letting them know
that, you know, racism as we liveit today in 2024, isn't this kind of,
(20:53):
you can't go there and you go there.
It's more, it's very systemic.
And it's in the airthat we breathe, right?
It's in our systems, it's in our educationsystems, it's in , our criminal justice
systems, it's in our, journalism,it's in, it's everywhere, right?
And so having them recognize that it'sin the air we breathe, and this is why
(21:14):
it shows up in the way that it shows up.
, they were able to understanda little bit more, right?
I think they walked into the roomthinking, oh, she's going to tell
me that I am this or I am that.
But I don't, I tend not to operatethat way because people can't hear
you when you say those things.
They don't hear you anymore.
They stop listening.
Well, because they get defensive, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
(21:35):
, I'm reading the book,White Women right now.
Yes.
Yeah.
And.
I love that the first, not even thefirst chapter, the preface that these
two authors actually wrote beforeyou throw the book away, just keep
reading because it's not, it's nota personal attack, which is like
(21:56):
you say, it's in the system, right?
It's everywhere.
It's like you talking to the personnext to you and some people, this
is not an excuse, but some peopledon't even know that they hold that
kind of belief until you tell them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
you have experience working with youth.
(22:18):
Yes and I haven't met manytherapists that have, because I
think a lot of people are like, Idon't want to touch that age group.
I don't.
I'm because I don't, I just don'tthink I'm going to be good at
it, but I would love to hear yourthoughts on youth these days.
(22:38):
And also you got two youngsons, and social media.
How do you think parents, maybeeven youth, Can navigate this moving
forward because it's going to be there.
It's not going away.
It's not going away.
You're right I think I recentlyheard that there is a Lawsuit or
(23:01):
something that's happening for someof the giants behind these social
media companies because it's having adetrimental impact on our young people.
, I remember years ago, a 15 yearold was brought into my practice
(23:21):
and her mother brought her in andsaid, she's really depressed.
We don't know what's going on.
Can you talk to her afterabout the third session?
Because they take a while after about thethird session, we began to realize that
she was struggling significantly withher self esteem because of social media.
I don't look like this.
(23:42):
I'm not popular like those people theboys don't like me because of that, and I
don't have that many followers, like allthe things, right, and I don't have the
likes, because young people, humans ingeneral, but specifically young people.
Or searching for belonging, right?
(24:03):
Or searching for validation andparticularly in the preteen teenage
years, they need it from their parents.
Their parents definitely need toprovide it, but they're not going in
search of it from their parents, right?
They're going in searchof it from their peers.
And what do their peers know?
(24:24):
Their peers don't know anythingbecause they're 13 as well.
And so, They head to social media,and they're looking for the likes.
They're looking for the likesto provide the validation.
They're looking for the likes to providethe, that, that, that sense of belonging.
You fit in.
We love you.
And if they don't get thelikes, it feels like rejection.
(24:47):
And when people live or operatefrom a space of rejection,
the self esteem suffers.
You don't know who you are anymore.
We wind up with the people pleasing.
So it's a real, , challenge.
I would say with parents don't be insuch a rush to get your kid a phone.
I understand the need for communication.
(25:09):
Let's see how we cannavigate the communication.
Don't just get a phonefor your 8 year old.
Right?
Yeah.
Becomes problematic.
When something like the phonedoes become involved, you must
set ground rules and parameters.
Each family has to do what works for them.
But parameters, I would suggest arethings like your parents need to know
(25:34):
what the password is for this phone.
Right.
If you give your childpermission to have social media.
I mean, it's, it's easy to say, I needto, you know, I need to be on your
account or I need to have the passwordfor the account or so on, but the child
can easily create, you know, a burner.
Account or identity and try to hide that.
(25:57):
I would try to be astransparent as possible,
?Think about what your values are as a family.
Talk to your child about that.
If you do not have good communication withyour child, then social media is going
to, , create a problem because if they'rebeing bullied on social media, if they are
(26:18):
being ostracized on social media, and theydon't have good communication with you.
Then you won't know when things get outof hand, so you must have a practice of
communicating regularly with your child.
If that , isn't in place for you yet,slow down on the social media stuff,
or get into family therapy , and boostthat, or solidify that before you, give
(26:43):
them all the social media in the world.
You know, we uh our 12 year old.
he's been asking us for aphone since he was 9 years old.
We just cleaned off one of ourold phones and gave him a phone.
He doesn't have the capabilityto put apps on there.
He has to ask our permission,we tether it to our phone usage.
(27:04):
, we limit his data.
He's been asking for different.
He wants to get on Snapchatand we've told him no.
We're just not ready for that yet.
He thinks he's ready.
All of his friends are on it.
And , we're mindful of things like.
Feeling on the outside becauseall of the friends are on it.
Right.
We're mindful of what that can feel like.
And so we have these conversationson a regular basis, and we try to
(27:27):
provide other ways for they're stillyoung enough where , they can't just.
They can't drive.
So they need us to go places, right?
So we try as much as possible to createother ways for them to connect, right?
Can they hang out together?
You know, bring your friend.
We can have your friends over.
We'll do a movie night, right?
(27:47):
You want to play video games.
We can do that here.
Get, to know the parents ofsome of your children's friends.
So that . , you can trust inknowing, , where your child is going.
If they say, can I go over tosuch and such house, right?
Do you feel comfortable for that?
Really pay attention.
I think for me, the underlying factors,communication and a sense of emotional
(28:09):
safety or psychological safety reallycreate a foundation for that 1st.
Before we dabble into social media,because once you get into that,
there's the way that it looks rightnow is there's no turning back.
And I will say research has shown that,, depression and a sense of anxiety has
(28:30):
increased over the past, I would say,maybe 14, 13, 15 years around that mark.
And when we take a look at whathas happened in our society is
the creation of social media.
Right.
And I can't say that it's causal, butit's certainly a significant correlation.
(28:52):
And it's one that we must, we haveto pay attention to in our society.
Yeah.
And, you know, and we linked thatinto not just youth, but also adults.
Yeah.
100%.
That are looking for validation online.
I personally, I don't think it's all bad.
No, no, no.
(29:12):
I agree with you.
You have to, especially as a parent,you have to keep an eye on it, right?
You don't just let them have freereign because there's so much danger.
Yes, and they're so young, theycan't tell the difference, right?
It can be a wonderful tool.
I've met amazing people on social media.
I've met you, right?
Yes!
(29:32):
I've met amazing people, but weare people who have , balance.
We, know how to navigate certain things.
We have better judgment than14 year old young people.
Right.
And we're mental health clinicians.
, there are certain skills that we havewhere we can use social media as a tool.
(29:54):
Right.
15 year olds don't necessarilyhave that judgment yet.
They're still growing up.
Their prefrontal cortex isnot fully developed yet.
. So , as parents, wemust be that for them..
I'm curious , if youhave any thoughts on this?
Not just youth, but even adults who are onsocial media and those who feel isolated.
(30:19):
And, they are on there looking forthe likes, looking for the comments.
And that's what they push, right?
If you don't like the post, peopledon't like the post, the algorithm,
your posts are not going to show up.
And you get someone, people whoare isolated, they don't have
community, they don't have friends.
Now social media is where they feel seen.
(30:44):
My advice usually to my clients isbe really careful of who you follow.
Yeah.
Right.
Follow the ones.
That makes you feel good about yourself,the social justice people, exactly.
Not the, not a people who are out thereselling like the Louis Vuitton bag for a
(31:06):
hundred thousand and you can't afford it.
Then you start to feel bad about yourself.
I'm curious, do you have thoughtsabout how to help or encourage
people to go find community?
Or, and I'm not against online community,but are there ways that people can go,
Okay, I need to feel seen, I need people,but I also need to know that the likes
(31:31):
don't matter, the comments don't matter.
And I recognize that there aresome people who You know, might
be physically isolated, maybe dueto physical limitations or so on,
, being a senior, feeling shut in.
So it, with those instances, theinternet connection is important, right?
(31:55):
But to your point, who are we following?
Are we following peoplewho are, very superficial?
Are we following people?
I often say.
Pay attention to how you feel right?
Really pay attention to how you feel.
How does your body feel?
Do you get a sense inthe pit of your stomach?
(32:16):
Do you feel heavy?
Do you feel lighter?
Do you feel energized when you're intouch with this person or do you feel down
like a second rate version of yourself?
These are things to pay attention to.
Our bodies are miraculousand they guide us, right?
So do you feel awful in an awfulfeeling in the pit of your stomach?
(32:39):
Do you feel like, Oh, they're alwaystraveling and I can never get on a plane.
What's wrong with me?
Pay attention to those things.
Even if you have to.
Pause or mute those accounts or unfollowthem for a month or two until you start
to feel more like yourself, right?
Definitely.
I use the unfollow button very liberally.
There's there should be, I think, amute button as well on some social
(33:01):
media platforms where you can.
Reduce how many times you seeposts from that person, , pay
attention to how you feel.
And also understand that for some people,social media is lovely, it's a great tool.
It cannot be the only waythat we interact, right?
(33:23):
When I think of, maybe even the summer orfall of 2020, when we were sequestered to
our homes, There is a reason that people'smental health problems went up during the
pandemic, because being physically social.
(33:45):
Being physically active, being ableto get up and leave your house and see
a friend, break bread with someone,,cook with someone, bring someone some
flowers, share some tea or a glass ofwine or whatever it is that you drink.
But connecting with people in person hasa wonderful effect on the psyche, right?
(34:06):
And so only having onlineconnections while I understand.
It's very helpful for people whodon't have any other options.
If you have options, it isimportant from time to time to take
the friendships offline, right?
And go hiking or go to a potteryclass or go and grab a coffee
(34:33):
at your local coffee shop.
Right.
Go to the library and check outsome books and do a book club, , but
participate in real life living asyour options would allow you to,
but if that is not available toyou, be mindful of who you follow.
Be mindful of the comparison trap.
(34:53):
. Because social media is a displayof people's highlight reels.
. People will show.
You know, they're a beautifulrelationship and you see hashtag
couple goals, but you're not seeing.
The, drag out fights that are happeningin the middle of the night, you're not
seeing that they're actually in coupletherapy, which is not a bad thing.
(35:15):
You're not seeing that they'rescreaming at each other.
You're not seeing that they'renot very good at parenting.
You're not seeing those pieces.
Nobody's posting that.
Nobody's posting the messthat's on the kitchen counter.
Nobody's posting that.
So be mindful that all that glittersis not gold on the Internet.
(35:36):
Oh, yeah.
I always tell friends and clients,if the account I follow, they're not
sharing that they're having a bad day.
Yes.
You don't want them to overshare.
We also know that a lot ofpeople are oversharing, but
you want to be honest, right?
Yeah.
You've been married for 25 years.
(35:58):
It's not all loving.
Exactly.
I'm aware of our time.
Last question.
Yes.
Any advice for new therapists?
Ah, I would say new therapistsin, in practice for themselves
(36:22):
or just new, fresh out of school.
I think fresh out of school.
Okay.
Whatever comes to your mind.
Cause I think whatever comes to your mind.
let's do both.
I would say people who are fresh out ofschool understand that you have, you still
have a lot of learning, , get a mentor.
, you're going to make mistakes,give yourself grace, right?
(36:44):
You cannot fix everything.
There are a lot of thingsthat you cannot fix.
But understand that and also don'tbeat up on yourself because
you cannot fix everything.
There are a lot of issues in life thatwe cannot fix, but understand that, you
are a place where people can bring thething, just being able to talk about it is
(37:05):
an unburdening that is cathartic, right?
So even if you cannot fix theirissue, you are giving them a space
and you're helping them hold it.
And that is important.
But get yourself a mentor, , someonewho's a few steps ahead of you.
To help you in this work, , takecare of yourself because this work,
(37:25):
we use ourselves to do this work.
We're not like gardeners who use,garden tools, a lawnmower, clippers.
We use our hearts and ourminds to do this work.
So it's important to take the timeto recharge for people who are.
Who are already doing therapy insome kind of capacity and are now
(37:45):
becoming entrepreneurs and you'regetting into private practice.
I will say again, get a mentor, understandthat being a good therapist does not mean
you are now a good business owner, right?
You're you might be leaving your employer.
Yes, you will continue to be a therapist,but now you are running a business and
(38:08):
that takes a different kind of skill.
Right, so get the support that you need.
when we opened our clinic, , eight,nine years ago we hired a business
coach, but one of the things Irealized was nobody tells you all
the back end things that happen.
Nope.
Because all they see is the front.
(38:28):
Oh, you've got a business, you'vegot a website, but everything
that you need to do at all.
Nobody tells you that.
No, no, nobody tells you that.
This is lovely.
Thank you Roxanne.
thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
This is a good conversation.
Hmm, such a goodconversation with Roxanne.
(38:51):
This week's.
Advice from Yi yi, your Chinese Aunty me.
Is let's go back to, , thetopic of scanning for safety.
Now for those of us whoidentifies as BIPOC.
Oftentimes we scan forsafety and for many.
(39:12):
They don't know they're doing it.
for example, when you leave the houseand the walking down the street, the
moment you stepped out of your house.
You look right and left and takingthe whole picture before you.
Start walking.
For some of you listening, you.
(39:34):
might think, oh, that's normal.
But for those who are BIPOCthose with a history of trauma
or those who have faced racism.
The act of looking around when you stepout of your house or your apartment.
That is a way to take a look at theirenvironment and to see, oh, is it safe?
(40:00):
Can I start walking?
Now, I don't believe that there'sanything wrong with doing that.
I actually think if that's whatyour nervous systems need to
feel safe, go ahead and do it.
But I also want to remind you.
Is that as you do that alsolook around for what feels safe.
It could be a big tree.
(40:21):
It could be.
A dog that you see it.
Maybe a smile from a stranger's face.
And then pause and let that.
Sink into your body.
See how that feels.
So remember, don't always just scan forthreats, learn to scan for safety too.
(40:41):
For me on a spring day when I'mout walking our puppy Bailey.
I do scan and see the bigpicture what's out there.
Then I also as we're walking.
I make an intentionaleffort to look at flowers.
Daffodils are blooming and thentulips are coming up because.
(41:03):
They make me feel safeand I really love flowers.
I hope you have a great week.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
(41:24):
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapeterson.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
(41:45):
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
She put her hand on mine and shesaid, Roxanne, you don't have to
(00:02):
censor yourself when you talk with me.
, And that gave me such a, , such anexhale, such a relief, such a deep breath.
Yeah.
Right.
To know that I could just speakfreely because many of us pause,
we do the mental gymnastics
(00:24):
. I remember years ago, a 15 year old was brought into my practice
and her mother brought her in andsaid, she's really depressed.
We don't know what's going on.
Can you talk to her afterabout the third session?
Because they take a while after about thethird session, we began to realize that
she was struggling significantly withher self esteem because of social media.
(00:47):
Welcome to conversations withyour Chinese auntie podcast.
Your host, Patricia Petersen hasconversations with BIPOC folks in this
podcast, we give voice to people ofcolor and learn more about their lives.
Join your Chinese auntie, asshe has Compelling conversations
with fascinating people.
Without any further ado, let'sdive headfirst into this episode.
(01:21):
Hello everybody today, myguest is Roxanne Francis.
Roxanne is an award winning CEO of Francispsychotherapy and consulting services.
She runs a busy group practice andis a keynote speaker leadership coach
and corporate consultant who addressedtopics related to women's issues.
(01:42):
Raise equity, mental health,parenting, and wellness at work.
She is also the founder of TheTherapist's Lounge, which helps
private practice social workers andpsychotherapists meet their needs for
community wellness and business support.
You can read more aboutRoxanne on the show notes.
(02:03):
I met Roxanne on social media.
Instagram In this episode, Roxanne andI talk about youth and social media,
how to navigate social media safely.
And we also talk aboutscanning for safety.
Now a lot of us who identify as BIPOC.
(02:26):
We scan for safety.
. A lot of us don't even know what doing it.
For example, scanning for safety looklike when you go into a coffee shop.
You sit with your back against the wall.
So that you can see what's going on.
I'll talk about this a little bitmore at the end of the episode.
(02:52):
Good morning, Roxanne.
Good morning.
Good morning.
How are you?
How was your weekend?
I'm good.
The weekend went byreally, really quickly.
. How was the weekend?
It was good.
Hanging out with the family,got some errands done.
, I have two little boys and sothere is always a lot of laundry.
(03:13):
I have a puppy, so that'snot a good comparison.
That's okay.
Every time we go to the forest,it's like four towels later.
Yeah, it's okay.
My kids are always asking.
I think it's a matter oftime before we get a dog.
My kids are always asking for apuppy and I'm just like I don't know.
It just feels like another littleperson, little life who will never
(03:37):
be able to take care of themselves,at least with the children.
I hope that eventually they'llbe able to wipe their own bums.
Roxanne, please introduce yourself.
How you identify, where you'refrom, anything you want to
share with the listeners.
Yeah, for sure.
So, my name is Roxanne Francis.
, I go by, she, her pronouns.
(04:00):
I have two boys.
They are 12 and nine years old.
I have been married for.
Gosh.
21 years.
And I, I live in Toronto, Canada.
I'm a Canadian citizen but I wasborn and raised in Kingston, Jamaica,
and came to this country over, Iwant to say, what year are we in?
(04:27):
2024.
I came to this country 25 years ago.
Wow.
And, when I started university inthe Caribbean, and I was actually
studying the sciences, moved to Canada,took a break from school because
integration will do that to you, kindof turned everything on its head.
And when I decided to go back toschool, I decided that I wanted
to go to school for social work.
(04:49):
So I did that, entered the workforce,and started working with children.
And, that sort of snowballed into workingwith families, their parents, and, , that
segwayed into counseling slash therapy.
And fast forward a few years laterI worked for a number of agencies
(05:13):
and then eventually I left agencyand decided to work for myself.
And so now I am a therapistand I have a group practice.
And there are a handful of us on ourteam, and we serve clients in person
in the GTA or the general Toronto,the greater Toronto area and virtually
(05:36):
all across the province of Ontario.
From the knowledge that I have fromdoing this work, I've also had the
opportunity to do some work in the media.
So from time to time, I've beenin the media talking about mental
health, providing mental healthsuggestions, tips, resources.
And I also, I have a really greatpassion about mental wellness at work.
(05:58):
And so I do some consulting withorganizations, different companies.
I go in and we talkabout wellness at work.
I do a lot of work with HR departmentsto talk about their HR policies.
I do a lot of.
Work around being black at work as well.
Again, I work with HR or peoplewho head up DE& I departments
(06:21):
around supporting their staff.
I find that there's a lot ofvery, very solid policies.
At work around sexual harassment,but there is not, there are
not as many policies at workaround racial discrimination.
And so just talking to HR companies,sorry, HR departments around solidifying
(06:43):
and supporting their staff in that way.
What else do I do?
I also support therapists in thefield, so I am a certified clinical
supervisor, but I also help.
People who are starting their own practiceand also people who have already started
their own practice who need support withhelping their practice grow or they want
(07:06):
to they want to start a group practice.
They want to go from being justthem to being a larger group.
Because I find that our universitiesand our schools do great work in terms
of helping you learn how to treat theclients who come in the door, but they
(07:28):
don't do such a great job with, okay,here's how you start a therapy practice.
Here is how you create the business.
This is how you decide how much to charge.
This is what you do when someoneknows shows like all of these things
are things that people learn on thefly, and I think it causes people to
be really afraid of, I don't know ifI should stop my practice because.
(07:49):
I don't know what to do.
And so, I, I support cliniciansas they try to start their
practice or expand or grow.
That's so great because Ididn't learn that at all.
I was in Chinese medicine for over10 years before I became a therapist.
It was the same thing.
(08:10):
Nobody teaches you how to run a business.
Do you advertise?
Do you not advertise?
Do you need a website?
Things like that.
And networking, that was a huge thing.
Yes.
Are you in the Toronto area?
No, I'm in Vancouver.
I was actually in Vancouver last year.
(08:30):
June I had a meeting with, I'm notsure if you're familiar with, Jane App.
Yes.
That helped.
Yeah.
So I was at their headquarterslast June for a meeting.
It was in North Vancouver,lovely, lovely city.
Hmm.
Please let me know the nexttime you come out here.
Yeah, I will.
Yeah.
(08:51):
I am curious with yourexperience in mental health.
Has there been anything that youhad to unlearn or you had to tweak.
Working with clients ortalking to the HR department.
What have I had to unlearn?
I think I've had to understand thatthere are more as a woman of color,
(09:18):
that there are more people, quoteunquote, on my side than, you know.
Society would sort of have you thinkI went to what I would consider a
very progressive university for myundergrad, and there was a lot of, a
lot of discussion about anti oppressionanti racism, a lot of learning around
(09:43):
you know, Indigenous ways of knowing.
And I think I left undergrad withthis very you know, everybody's
out to get you kind of idea, right?
And the interesting thing is that I don'tthink I went into school with that, right?
But we did, there was so much Ithink because the The majority of
(10:07):
the students in the undergraduateprogram were not persons of color.
It was, it was almost as though theuniversity was very, was very keen on
ensuring that they realize that theylive from a place of privilege, that
oppression was real in our society,that you know, there are many things
(10:28):
that are unfair for persons of color.
And I think I left that with, you know,You know, sort of fist in the air,
kind of, you know, and while, whilethere are, uh, while the challenges are
real, I've had to realize that thereare more allies in our society than
(10:49):
that I gave sort of credit for, right?
And and that we, the experience of life,while persons of color definitely have
significant challenges in this country.
The experience of life isvery much a human experience.
And so, you know, in my practice, mostof the clinicians are clinicians who
(11:16):
are racialized, but I don't want to be,I don't want my practice to be seen as.
The practice that only sees this kind ofpeople are only sees that kind of people.
I want to be able to I wantto be able to serve everybody.
And I want all kinds of people to becomfortable coming into our services.
(11:39):
I want everyone to feel seen.
I want everyone to feelvalued and to feel heard.
Because we all have our challenges,, whether or not there are challenges
related to race or related to, youknow, colonization or oppression
we all have our challenges.
And so when a couple comes into ourpractice and says, we're struggling
(12:01):
with communication, I want us to beable to support them and serve them
regardless of regardless of background.
And granted, some people will feelmore comfortable talking to therapists.
From their background wherethey don't have to explain.
This is, this is what my parents are like.
My parents don't know how to apologize.
(12:23):
Or, you know, while people mightfeel more comfortable, you know,
going to work with people who arefrom their background or culture.
And that's important too.
I just want people tofeel feel comfortable.
That was a long answer.
I love it.
And I get what you'resaying, how it works out, I
(12:44):
attract a lot of Asian clients.
Yes.
Yeah.
, and a lot of them will come and theysay, I don't have to explain racism.
I don't have to.
If I say to you, tiger mom, you get it.
And somatically my nervoussystem gets that you get it.
So I don't have to explain it.
(13:04):
And I love that you brought upthe ally bit because so many of
us, especially women of color,walk around scanning for safety.
Yes.
And we don't, a lot of usdon't even know we're doing it
because it's so innate in us.
(13:26):
I'm curious with your experience, likethe ally bit for your personal experience
or with clients, it's like, how doyou encourage one to find the allies?
Or do you think they just show up?
Well, the reason that we scan isbecause sometimes we can't tell,
right, if people are allies.
(13:48):
I think that when you are in a placewhere you start to feel uncomfortable
talking about your the challenges thatyou live with, you know, then you know
that you are not in a space of allyship.
I was talking to someone once,a friend of mine, she's white.
(14:10):
And we were talking and I, I was tryingto explain something about my lived
experience and I stopped talking becauseI was trying to figure out how to.
Say it in a way that was palatableand she could see me doing the mental
gymnastics and she stopped me.
She put her hand on mine and shesaid, Roxanne, you don't have to
(14:32):
censor yourself when you talk with me.
, And that gave me such a, , such anexhale, such a relief, such a deep breath.
Yeah.
Right.
To know that I could just speak freelybecause many of us pause, we do the
mental gymnastics and this person.
How do I really hold whatit is that I have to say?
(14:54):
How do I say it without makingthem feel offended or right?
And so when you are in spaces whereyou feel like you can speak clearly,
where you are, you are almost giventhis this permission without even them
having to say the words, then you knowthat you're in the presence of an ally.
(15:15):
I was in a webinar theother day and the presenter.
She was a black woman and shesaid racialized people are some
of the most what does she say?
Are some of the most, , functioninganxious people out there because
they are constantly, to your point,scanning, constantly scanning for safety.
(15:36):
That is the reality of an anxious person.
And even if you don't identify as anxious.
, we are constantly checking,you know, is this safe?
Is it okay if I say this?
Will they be mad if I say that?
Will they understand if Ishow up in this way, right?
(15:56):
Am I going to have toexplain myself if I do that?
And that work is exhausting.
Yeah, and I was talkingto one of my friends.
So we both immigrated from Singapore.
And even though we were brought uplearning English, so in Singapore's
education system is you must learnEnglish and your mother tongue.
(16:19):
Yeah.
And even though we both learnedEnglish growing up, when we came
here, they said that they hadto change the way they speak.
Wow.
Yeah.
With English, right?
Even something as simple, butnot simple as the terms you use.
Garbage versus rubbish.
(16:41):
Yes.
And constantly thinking,is my English good enough?
Good enough.
I need to change my grammar.
I need to change the way Ispeak in order to fit in.
And yeah, we don't.
A lot of us do it without even knowingbecause we are told we're not good
(17:03):
enough for the Western society.
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's challenging, as you talkabout English, I was presenting a workshop
the other day to some hiring managers ata company and we were talking about what
I like to call the politics of accent.
(17:25):
And, I was saying to them, whyis it that accents from a certain
part of the world are seen as.
You know, not good enough,not smart enough, not, not,
not, not polished enough.
Well, accents from a differentpart of the world are seen as
classy, polished, rich, sexy.
, I said to them, if someone is talkingto you, and they have an accent from
(17:49):
another country that speaks a differentlanguage, you need to understand
that they're thinking in one languageand speaking to you in another.
So, if all you have is English,they've already passed you in terms
of, , qualifications in certain ways, youknow, and then I said to them, also, the
other thing you need to consider is thatEnglish is not a measure of intelligence.
(18:12):
It's a language, right?
So many times people think thatif not only, not only English, but
English in a particular accent, right?
Because so many people who weren'tborn in a Western country, I grew up
learning and speaking English, but ifyou don't sound Western, then there's all
(18:36):
kinds of judgments being placed on you.
And that's not fair because peoplealready have to go through too much
garbage to settle in this country.
Right?
I could talk about this for a day.
We should just talk about this.
I love this.
So in my twenties, I was an aerobics.
(18:56):
teacher a lot of us did that.
That's amazing.
And I was auditioning for one ofthe bigger chains here and , the
director didn't come into the room.
She sat outside.
We've never met before.
And we, when we came out, she lookedat me, she's like, Oh, I thought
you're British or Australian orSouth African with your accent.
(19:21):
And I was like, Huh.
And she placed an importance on itbecause she liked these three accents.
Did I get the job?
No, because she took one look at me.
I didn't get the job.
But I would have gotten the jobif I didn't look the way I look.
(19:44):
But she liked the accent.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yes.
The exotic sounding.
Yeah.
But the racism is real.
It's real.
When you , did the presentation,did they receive it well?
I think there was, it was no shadeto white people and their allies, but
it was a room full of white people,and at the beginning, there was a
(20:07):
little bit of quiet, very quiet.
Right.
And so what I did was I ended up givingsome scenarios and I broke them up
into groups to discuss the scenariosand then we brought it together.
And in the discussion as adiscussion started to unfold.
You could see that people's, they, theyrelaxed a little bit, at the start of
(20:31):
the presentation, you could almost seem.
There was this, almost as thoughthey were taking offense, like,
what is she talking about?
I'm not racist, right?
Yeah.
But, you know, just having theconversations and letting them know
that, you know, racism as we liveit today in 2024, isn't this kind of,
(20:53):
you can't go there and you go there.
It's more, it's very systemic.
And it's in the airthat we breathe, right?
It's in our systems, it's in our educationsystems, it's in , our criminal justice
systems, it's in our, journalism,it's in, it's everywhere, right?
And so having them recognize that it'sin the air we breathe, and this is why
(21:14):
it shows up in the way that it shows up.
, they were able to understanda little bit more, right?
I think they walked into the roomthinking, oh, she's going to tell
me that I am this or I am that.
But I don't, I tend not to operatethat way because people can't hear
you when you say those things.
They don't hear you anymore.
They stop listening.
Well, because they get defensive, right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
(21:35):
, I'm reading the book,White Women right now.
Yes.
Yeah.
And.
I love that the first, not even thefirst chapter, the preface that these
two authors actually wrote beforeyou throw the book away, just keep
reading because it's not, it's nota personal attack, which is like
(21:56):
you say, it's in the system, right?
It's everywhere.
It's like you talking to the personnext to you and some people, this
is not an excuse, but some peopledon't even know that they hold that
kind of belief until you tell them.
Yeah.
Yeah.
you have experience working with youth.
(22:18):
Yes and I haven't met manytherapists that have, because I
think a lot of people are like, Idon't want to touch that age group.
I don't.
I'm because I don't, I just don'tthink I'm going to be good at
it, but I would love to hear yourthoughts on youth these days.
(22:38):
And also you got two youngsons, and social media.
How do you think parents, maybeeven youth, Can navigate this moving
forward because it's going to be there.
It's not going away.
It's not going away.
You're right I think I recentlyheard that there is a Lawsuit or
(23:01):
something that's happening for someof the giants behind these social
media companies because it's having adetrimental impact on our young people.
, I remember years ago, a 15 yearold was brought into my practice
(23:21):
and her mother brought her in andsaid, she's really depressed.
We don't know what's going on.
Can you talk to her afterabout the third session?
Because they take a while after about thethird session, we began to realize that
she was struggling significantly withher self esteem because of social media.
I don't look like this.
(23:42):
I'm not popular like those people theboys don't like me because of that, and I
don't have that many followers, like allthe things, right, and I don't have the
likes, because young people, humans ingeneral, but specifically young people.
Or searching for belonging, right?
(24:03):
Or searching for validation andparticularly in the preteen teenage
years, they need it from their parents.
Their parents definitely need toprovide it, but they're not going in
search of it from their parents, right?
They're going in searchof it from their peers.
And what do their peers know?
(24:24):
Their peers don't know anythingbecause they're 13 as well.
And so, They head to social media,and they're looking for the likes.
They're looking for the likesto provide the validation.
They're looking for the likes to providethe, that, that, that sense of belonging.
You fit in.
We love you.
And if they don't get thelikes, it feels like rejection.
(24:47):
And when people live or operatefrom a space of rejection,
the self esteem suffers.
You don't know who you are anymore.
We wind up with the people pleasing.
So it's a real, , challenge.
I would say with parents don't be insuch a rush to get your kid a phone.
I understand the need for communication.
(25:09):
Let's see how we cannavigate the communication.
Don't just get a phonefor your 8 year old.
Right?
Yeah.
Becomes problematic.
When something like the phonedoes become involved, you must
set ground rules and parameters.
Each family has to do what works for them.
But parameters, I would suggest arethings like your parents need to know
(25:34):
what the password is for this phone.
Right.
If you give your childpermission to have social media.
I mean, it's, it's easy to say, I needto, you know, I need to be on your
account or I need to have the passwordfor the account or so on, but the child
can easily create, you know, a burner.
Account or identity and try to hide that.
(25:57):
I would try to be astransparent as possible,
?Think about what your values are as a family.
Talk to your child about that.
If you do not have good communication withyour child, then social media is going
to, , create a problem because if they'rebeing bullied on social media, if they are
(26:18):
being ostracized on social media, and theydon't have good communication with you.
Then you won't know when things get outof hand, so you must have a practice of
communicating regularly with your child.
If that , isn't in place for you yet,slow down on the social media stuff,
or get into family therapy , and boostthat, or solidify that before you, give
(26:43):
them all the social media in the world.
You know, we uh our 12 year old.
he's been asking us for aphone since he was 9 years old.
We just cleaned off one of ourold phones and gave him a phone.
He doesn't have the capabilityto put apps on there.
He has to ask our permission,we tether it to our phone usage.
(27:04):
, we limit his data.
He's been asking for different.
He wants to get on Snapchatand we've told him no.
We're just not ready for that yet.
He thinks he's ready.
All of his friends are on it.
And , we're mindful of things like.
Feeling on the outside becauseall of the friends are on it.
Right.
We're mindful of what that can feel like.
And so we have these conversationson a regular basis, and we try to
(27:27):
provide other ways for they're stillyoung enough where , they can't just.
They can't drive.
So they need us to go places, right?
So we try as much as possible to createother ways for them to connect, right?
Can they hang out together?
You know, bring your friend.
We can have your friends over.
We'll do a movie night, right?
(27:47):
You want to play video games.
We can do that here.
Get, to know the parents ofsome of your children's friends.
So that . , you can trust inknowing, , where your child is going.
If they say, can I go over tosuch and such house, right?
Do you feel comfortable for that?
Really pay attention.
I think for me, the underlying factors,communication and a sense of emotional
(28:09):
safety or psychological safety reallycreate a foundation for that 1st.
Before we dabble into social media,because once you get into that,
there's the way that it looks rightnow is there's no turning back.
And I will say research has shown that,, depression and a sense of anxiety has
(28:30):
increased over the past, I would say,maybe 14, 13, 15 years around that mark.
And when we take a look at whathas happened in our society is
the creation of social media.
Right.
And I can't say that it's causal, butit's certainly a significant correlation.
(28:52):
And it's one that we must, we haveto pay attention to in our society.
Yeah.
And, you know, and we linked thatinto not just youth, but also adults.
Yeah.
100%.
That are looking for validation online.
I personally, I don't think it's all bad.
No, no, no.
(29:12):
I agree with you.
You have to, especially as a parent,you have to keep an eye on it, right?
You don't just let them have freereign because there's so much danger.
Yes, and they're so young, theycan't tell the difference, right?
It can be a wonderful tool.
I've met amazing people on social media.
I've met you, right?
Yes!
(29:32):
I've met amazing people, but weare people who have , balance.
We, know how to navigate certain things.
We have better judgment than14 year old young people.
Right.
And we're mental health clinicians.
, there are certain skills that we havewhere we can use social media as a tool.
(29:54):
Right.
15 year olds don't necessarilyhave that judgment yet.
They're still growing up.
Their prefrontal cortex isnot fully developed yet.
. So , as parents, wemust be that for them..
I'm curious , if youhave any thoughts on this?
Not just youth, but even adults who are onsocial media and those who feel isolated.
(30:19):
And, they are on there looking forthe likes, looking for the comments.
And that's what they push, right?
If you don't like the post, peopledon't like the post, the algorithm,
your posts are not going to show up.
And you get someone, people whoare isolated, they don't have
community, they don't have friends.
Now social media is where they feel seen.
(30:44):
My advice usually to my clients isbe really careful of who you follow.
Yeah.
Right.
Follow the ones.
That makes you feel good about yourself,the social justice people, exactly.
Not the, not a people who are out thereselling like the Louis Vuitton bag for a
(31:06):
hundred thousand and you can't afford it.
Then you start to feel bad about yourself.
I'm curious, do you have thoughtsabout how to help or encourage
people to go find community?
Or, and I'm not against online community,but are there ways that people can go,
Okay, I need to feel seen, I need people,but I also need to know that the likes
(31:31):
don't matter, the comments don't matter.
And I recognize that there aresome people who You know, might
be physically isolated, maybe dueto physical limitations or so on,
, being a senior, feeling shut in.
So it, with those instances, theinternet connection is important, right?
(31:55):
But to your point, who are we following?
Are we following peoplewho are, very superficial?
Are we following people?
I often say.
Pay attention to how you feel right?
Really pay attention to how you feel.
How does your body feel?
Do you get a sense inthe pit of your stomach?
(32:16):
Do you feel heavy?
Do you feel lighter?
Do you feel energized when you're intouch with this person or do you feel down
like a second rate version of yourself?
These are things to pay attention to.
Our bodies are miraculousand they guide us, right?
So do you feel awful in an awfulfeeling in the pit of your stomach?
(32:39):
Do you feel like, Oh, they're alwaystraveling and I can never get on a plane.
What's wrong with me?
Pay attention to those things.
Even if you have to.
Pause or mute those accounts or unfollowthem for a month or two until you start
to feel more like yourself, right?
Definitely.
I use the unfollow button very liberally.
There's there should be, I think, amute button as well on some social
(33:01):
media platforms where you can.
Reduce how many times you seeposts from that person, , pay
attention to how you feel.
And also understand that for some people,social media is lovely, it's a great tool.
It cannot be the only waythat we interact, right?
(33:23):
When I think of, maybe even the summer orfall of 2020, when we were sequestered to
our homes, There is a reason that people'smental health problems went up during the
pandemic, because being physically social.
(33:45):
Being physically active, being ableto get up and leave your house and see
a friend, break bread with someone,,cook with someone, bring someone some
flowers, share some tea or a glass ofwine or whatever it is that you drink.
But connecting with people in person hasa wonderful effect on the psyche, right?
(34:06):
And so only having onlineconnections while I understand.
It's very helpful for people whodon't have any other options.
If you have options, it isimportant from time to time to take
the friendships offline, right?
And go hiking or go to a potteryclass or go and grab a coffee
(34:33):
at your local coffee shop.
Right.
Go to the library and check outsome books and do a book club, , but
participate in real life living asyour options would allow you to,
but if that is not available toyou, be mindful of who you follow.
Be mindful of the comparison trap.
(34:53):
. Because social media is a displayof people's highlight reels.
. People will show.
You know, they're a beautifulrelationship and you see hashtag
couple goals, but you're not seeing.
The, drag out fights that are happeningin the middle of the night, you're not
seeing that they're actually in coupletherapy, which is not a bad thing.
(35:15):
You're not seeing that they'rescreaming at each other.
You're not seeing that they'renot very good at parenting.
You're not seeing those pieces.
Nobody's posting that.
Nobody's posting the messthat's on the kitchen counter.
Nobody's posting that.
So be mindful that all that glittersis not gold on the Internet.
(35:36):
Oh, yeah.
I always tell friends and clients,if the account I follow, they're not
sharing that they're having a bad day.
Yes.
You don't want them to overshare.
We also know that a lot ofpeople are oversharing, but
you want to be honest, right?
Yeah.
You've been married for 25 years.
(35:58):
It's not all loving.
Exactly.
I'm aware of our time.
Last question.
Yes.
Any advice for new therapists?
Ah, I would say new therapistsin, in practice for themselves
(36:22):
or just new, fresh out of school.
I think fresh out of school.
Okay.
Whatever comes to your mind.
Cause I think whatever comes to your mind.
let's do both.
I would say people who are fresh out ofschool understand that you have, you still
have a lot of learning, , get a mentor.
, you're going to make mistakes,give yourself grace, right?
(36:44):
You cannot fix everything.
There are a lot of thingsthat you cannot fix.
But understand that and also don'tbeat up on yourself because
you cannot fix everything.
There are a lot of issues in life thatwe cannot fix, but understand that, you
are a place where people can bring thething, just being able to talk about it is
(37:05):
an unburdening that is cathartic, right?
So even if you cannot fix theirissue, you are giving them a space
and you're helping them hold it.
And that is important.
But get yourself a mentor, , someonewho's a few steps ahead of you.
To help you in this work, , takecare of yourself because this work,
(37:25):
we use ourselves to do this work.
We're not like gardeners who use,garden tools, a lawnmower, clippers.
We use our hearts and ourminds to do this work.
So it's important to take the timeto recharge for people who are.
Who are already doing therapy insome kind of capacity and are now
(37:45):
becoming entrepreneurs and you'regetting into private practice.
I will say again, get a mentor, understandthat being a good therapist does not mean
you are now a good business owner, right?
You're you might be leaving your employer.
Yes, you will continue to be a therapist,but now you are running a business and
(38:08):
that takes a different kind of skill.
Right, so get the support that you need.
when we opened our clinic, , eight,nine years ago we hired a business
coach, but one of the things Irealized was nobody tells you all
the back end things that happen.
Nope.
Because all they see is the front.
(38:28):
Oh, you've got a business, you'vegot a website, but everything
that you need to do at all.
Nobody tells you that.
No, no, nobody tells you that.
This is lovely.
Thank you Roxanne.
thank you for having me.
I appreciate it.
This is a good conversation.
Hmm, such a goodconversation with Roxanne.
(38:51):
This week's.
Advice from Yi yi, your Chinese Aunty me.
Is let's go back to, , thetopic of scanning for safety.
Now for those of us whoidentifies as BIPOC.
Oftentimes we scan forsafety and for many.
(39:12):
They don't know they're doing it.
for example, when you leave the houseand the walking down the street, the
moment you stepped out of your house.
You look right and left and takingthe whole picture before you.
Start walking.
For some of you listening, you.
(39:34):
might think, oh, that's normal.
But for those who are BIPOCthose with a history of trauma
or those who have faced racism.
The act of looking around when you stepout of your house or your apartment.
That is a way to take a look at theirenvironment and to see, oh, is it safe?
(40:00):
Can I start walking?
Now, I don't believe that there'sanything wrong with doing that.
I actually think if that's whatyour nervous systems need to
feel safe, go ahead and do it.
But I also want to remind you.
Is that as you do that alsolook around for what feels safe.
It could be a big tree.
(40:21):
It could be.
A dog that you see it.
Maybe a smile from a stranger's face.
And then pause and let that.
Sink into your body.
See how that feels.
So remember, don't always just scan forthreats, learn to scan for safety too.
(40:41):
For me on a spring day when I'mout walking our puppy Bailey.
I do scan and see the bigpicture what's out there.
Then I also as we're walking.
I make an intentionaleffort to look at flowers.
Daffodils are blooming and thentulips are coming up because.
(41:03):
They make me feel safeand I really love flowers.
I hope you have a great week.
Take care of yourself.
Thanks so much for listening tothis episode of the Conversations
With Your Chinese Auntie Podcast.
If you're enjoying the show, pleasefeel free to rate, subscribe,
and leave a review whereveryou listen to your podcasts.
(41:24):
That helps others find the show,and we greatly appreciate it.
Also, remember to sign upfor our newsletter to receive
free materials and updates.
Links in the website, patriciapeterson.
ca.
That's P A T R I C I A P E T E R S E N.
C A.
Again, thanks for listening.
(41:45):
We hope you have a great week, andwe'll see you in the next episode.
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